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One World with Zain Asher
Trump Battling Over Immigration, Tariffs, Academia; Trump's Approval Rating Falls To New Low With Independents; Russian FM: Not Easy To Agree On Ukraine Peace Deal With U.S.; Millions Displaced, At Risk Of Famine After Two Years Of War; Zuckerberg In Court To Defend Social Media Acquisitions; Xi Touts China As Reliable Trade Partner In Southeast Asia; Biden To Deliver First Public Remarks Since Leaving Office. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired April 15, 2025 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:00:54]
ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Standing strong. Harvard University takes on Donald Trump.
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Second hour of ONE WORLD starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Harvard University today said, go to hell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's Harvard, a capitulator. I really fear for what next year would be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Trump freezes billions in funds because Harvard refuses to do what he says. Details on the president's wide range of battles, ahead.
ASHER: Plus, reflections from Sudan as the Civil War enters its third year. The U.N. says the nation needs help now more than ever
And later.
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(MUSIC)
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GOLODRYGA: It's official, folks. Harry Potter is making its way back to a screen near you and the brand-new cast has just been revealed. The music
though seems to be the same.
ASHER: All right. Coming to you live from New York, I'm Zain Asher.
GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. You are watching the second hour of ONE WORLD.
Immigration, tariffs, and academia. U.S. President Donald Trump is pressing on several -- on several fronts right now.
Harvard University is refusing to adopt changes to its policies demanded by the president. Short time ago, Trump posted on Truth Social. Harvard should
lose its tax exempt status.
The White House had already reacted by freezing $2.2 billion in federal funding, a move some are calling unconstitutional.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW MANUEL CRESPO, PROFESSOR OF LAW, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: This is a clear, unquestionable violation of First Amendment rights.
This is a move that happens in countries across the world when there are efforts to try to make an authoritarian play in government. Institutions
that are essential to civil society like the press, like the courts, like the legal profession and universities are the first to come under attack.
And that's what we've been seeing over the first few weeks of this administration, with that attack on universities coming full and hard now.
And this is the moment when it's so essential for those universities to take a stand. And if there's any university in the world that has the
resources to do that and the moral leadership to do that, it's Harvard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: On the trade front, the European Union says, if it can't reach an agreement with the U.S., it will impose tit for tat -- tit for tat tariffs
on hundreds of American products.
France says -- Prime Minister said earlier that President Trump's tariffs have shattered trust around the world. But some foreign leaders are happy
to give Trump what he wants.
During a trip to the White House on Monday, Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele and President Trump made it clear a man wrongfully deported to El
Salvador's mega prison would not be returned to the U.S., despite an order by the U.S. Supreme Court that the government should actually facilitate
his return on Trump.
Trump even saying he'd like to send America's own criminals, naturalized U.S. citizens, to El Salvador's notorious prison as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I call them homegrown criminals. I mean, the homegrown --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. The homegrowns could be?
TRUMP: The ones that grew up and something went wrong and they hit people over the head with a baseball bat. We have -- and push people into subways
just before the train gets there like you see happening sometimes.
We are looking into it and we want to do it. I would love to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: All of there seems to be playing a role in President Trump's approval rating. A new poll shows independent voters are turning sour on
Trump's economic leadership.
Our Harry Enten always happy. You know, I thought for a second that said --
GOLODRYGA: Person.
ASHER: -- happy tax day.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: No, no, no.
ASHER: Always so late to do my taxes.
ENTEN: No. No.
ASHER: It's Tuesday. OK. I can read. That's good.
ENTEN: Yes. Yes. It's good. And I can write.
GOLODRYGA: Did you pay your taxes?
ASHER: I actually filed it last night. I'm so late. Oh, my goodness.
ENTEN: You're one of many. I think it's a --
GOLODRYGA: Within the deadline. Within the deadline.
ENTEN: You're one of like 20 million who waited until the last week. One of 20 million.
ASHER: But I like that would -- I'm like that was literally everything in my life, anyway.
So the worst approval rating on record among independents at this point in his presidency. This is even worse than the first time. Tell us about that,
Harry.
[12:05:01]
ENTEN: Yes. All right. Let's just sort of break it down on this wonderful Tuesday afternoon here in New York City. Let's talk about it. The worst net
approval ratings on record among independents.
Donald Trump has managed to break his own record. He had set the mark back in 2017 At this point of presidency at minus 16 points.
Look where he is. Now, minus 22 points completely underwater. Swimming like the Little Mermaid, my goodness gracious, there is not another president
who is underwater with independents at this point in their presidency. And Donald Trump holds both marks and he actually broke his own record.
Now here's the question. Why is he doing so poorly with independents? Well, to quote James Carville, it's the economy stupid, but in the case of this
program, it's the economy, smarty pants, Bianna and Zain.
All right. What are we talking about here? Trump's net approval -- I thought that was pretty funny, right? I can hear you laugh.
ASHER: That was funny.
ENTEN: That's funny. Thank you.
ASHER: Harry, you always put a smile on my face.
ENTEN: Thank you.
ASHER: Thank you.
ENTEN: Thank you. OK. Anyway, back to the lesson here. Back to the lesson. Trump's net approval rating on the economy. Look at this. In January among
independents, he was at plus one points. At this one's, look at this drop, minus 29 points. That's a 30-point drop in less than three months.
There is not a historical analogy. Nothing is anywhere close to this. That is how far underwater Donald Trump is at this point, by far the worst for
the economy at this point in a presidency among independents.
And then, of course, there's the question of tariffs, right? The question of tariffs, which obviously plays a very key role in this.
All right. Does Trump have a clear plan for tariffs and trade among independents? Look at this number. Fifty-seven say, he doesn't even have a
clear plan of what's going on. Of course, that's not much of a surprise because one day Donald Trump says one thing, the next day he says another.
Howard Lutnick, one day he says one thing, the next day he says another.
And, of course, on the general broad question of whether or not they want new tariffs, get this, two-thirds of independents, 66 percent opposed.
The bottom line is you look at this polling across independents, you can't really find a sliver of good news for Donald Trump. He's, by far, the most
unpopular at this point in a presidency, by far the most unpopular on the economy. And his tariff plan is no bueno as far as independents are
concerned.
Lesson done, ladies.
ASHER: You know, I literally wake up every -- and I have absolutely no idea what the headlines are going to be when it comes to like literally no idea.
ENTEN: No. You don't have clue.
ASHER: No idea what --
GOLODRYGA: You're not the only one. Yes.
ENTEN: No. No.
GOLODRYGA: I don't know that many of the president's own staffers or the president himself knows, you know.
ASHER: Just ask Jamieson Greer. Ask Jamieson Greer.
GOLODRYGA: When he's testifying before the Senate. Exactly.
ENTEN: That's exactly right. They found out on Truth Social. That's how they find out.
GOLODRYGA: And by watching you, Harry Enten.
ENTEN: I'm -- that's exactly right. Trump is talking to me right now. Yes, president. No, he's not actually. But he should be.
GOLODRYGA: Harry, our daily dose of therapy with Harry Enten.
ASHER: Laughter is the best remedy. Yes. Thank you for that.
ENTEN: Dr. Enten. Dr. Enten.
ASHER: And it's like you give me the belly laughter. You know what I mean? Not the shallow laughter. It's like a belly laughter.
ENTEN: No. Not the shallow laughter. The hearty laugh.
GOLODRYGA: What did I call you? Mentor.
ENTEN: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Harry Enten, thank you.
ENTEN: See you.
GOLODRYGA: All right. For more on this, let's bring in CNN senior political reporter.
ASHER: At some point, we have to be so serious now.
GOLODRYGA: Stephen Collinson. I thought you smile.
ASHER: (INAUDIBLE) laughter. Come on.
GOLODRYGA: There's a smile. Let me see a smile on, Stephen. The difference between, you know, British humor and Americans.
ASHER: Hey, come on.
GOLODRYGA: Hey, you've been living in this country a long time.
OK. Let's move on. Stephen, let's talk about that last chart that we saw the polling among independents as to whether or not the president has any
cohesive plan about these tariffs. Because it's not just independents who seem to have that view.
And there's real life examples to back that up. For example, I will tell you one post I saw today, a headline in "The Financial Times." The U.S. has
not told the E.U. what it wants to lift in trade. What it wants to lift in terms of trade tariffs.
This is from the European commissioner after a two-hour meeting with the Commerce Secretary. We're not to say we need to hear more from the
Americans. We need to have a clear idea of what their preferred outcomes are in these negotiations.
So that doesn't do anything to restore confidence about this 90-day pause. You know, the clock is ticking when there's no real plan coming out of the
top officials who are meeting for hours.
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: Yes. That's consistently there's been no real plan. Look at the way that Trump suddenly hiked
tariffs on China to 145 percent without really thinking about any of the consequences.
What I think was really interesting about Harry's numbers there was that the bottom seems to be falling out of Trump's presidency in conventional
terms. And he's only been present again for three months.
And yet, we've not seen really, apart from the hits on the markets and to people's retirement plans, the real impact of tariffs on the economy, in
terms of prices rising, shortages of key commodities that U.S. gets from China, for example, pharmaceutical products, clothing or shoes or consumer
products. So it looks like he's in a pretty bad position.
[12:10:08]
On the issue of what they want from these countries that are supposedly, according to the administration rushing to give Trump great deals, I think
if you're a cynical person like me and have been watching this for a long time, you think that what the administration wants is something it can
portray as a huge breakthrough and a great deal.
And it doesn't really matter what it is because of that. I think the offers that the other countries are going to give to the United States are perhaps
going to be something like investment that the U.S. can say, oh, this is a great advance for us, but doesn't really change the fundamental framework
of the global trading system, which is ostensibly what Trump's trying to do.
And if that's the case, what was the point of wiping trillions of dollars off stock markets and creating economic pain for millions of Americans and
other people around?
ASHER: Stephen, to your point, we're not seeing the sort of economic fallout reflected in the data just yet. I mean, obviously, we've seen
swings in the stock market. We're seeing yields rise in the 10-year treasury.
But just in terms of the hard data, and that's because a lot of it is backward-looking. But once the numbers really start to show that consumers
are slowing down spending, and consumer spending, by the way, is 70 percent of GDP in this country.
Once there is the economic consequences of that, once we start inching closer and closer to a recession, what does that mean for Republicans?
Assuming that recession actually lasts a while. What does that mean for Republicans when it comes to the midterms?
COLLINSON: I think there's a lot of Republican lawmakers who are looking at situation and wondering, especially if they're in difficult seats. Do I
really want to run again? I think the coming months, the way that the two parties are looking at the midterm elections, at least in the House, will
be gleaned by which ones decide they're going to retire and they don't fancy facing tough primaries.
It's true what you said about consumer spending because consumer sentiment is already way down. That traditionally is not a good thing for a party in
power.
You know, precedents now is almost assumed that they get two years and then they lose the House and things get more difficult. There was certainly a
real assumption among the Republicans going into this two-year period that they had to get what they want to do. Vast tax cuts, ambitious Trump agenda
administration through very quickly because they're assuming that they will probably lose the House.
And also the fact that Trump isn't on the ballot historically. That means that a lot of Trump's voters don't always turn out to vote just for a down
the line Republican ticket, but still there's a long way to go. We don't know if he's going to pursue this trade war, if he's going to step back and
claim victory.
The one thing I would watch out for, I think, is that the situation with China every day that goes by gets more and more serious. There's absolutely
no sign that the Chinese are planning to back down. This is a hugely important political issue for President Xi Jinping who's on a tour of
Southeast Asia right now trying to court U.S. allies in the region. So I think that one is something really to watch it.
If the trade war with trot China really does go ahead in full force, ship stop coming across the pacific with all the goods that Americans are used
to, I think that is going to have a real political impact within weeks and months.
GOLODRYGA: Especially if the president's course now is to distance the United States from its historic allies as well. So a one-on-one trade war
with China, as opposed to having many, many trading partners is quite different and really unprecedented in recent history.
Stephen Collinson, let the record show, I believe British humor is underappreciated and underrated. That goes for you too, Zain.
ASHER: Thank you. We have best comedies.
COLLINSON: I'm going to go file my taxes then.
ASHER: British comedies are the best.
GOLODRYGA: I agree. Very high brow.
ASHER: This is going so hard.
GOLODRYGA: Very high brow as well.
All right, Stephen. Good to see you.
ASHER: All right. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov says, it's not easy to agree on a deal with the U.S. on ending Moscow's war against
Ukraine.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. President Trump has repeatedly said, he wants a swift end to the three-year war, but talks between American and Russian diplomats
have not yielded any key results yet.
President Trump's foreign envoy, Steve Witkoff, however, remains optimistic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE WITKOFF, U.S. MIDDLE EAST ENVOY: We might be on the verge of something that would be very, very important for the world at large.
On top of that, I believe there's a possibility to reshape the Russian- United States relationship through some very compelling commercial opportunities that I think give real stability to the region too.
Partnerships create stability.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[12:15:09]
GOLODRYGA: But Lavrov tells Russian media that it may be too soon for Moscow to think about normalizing relations with the U.S.
ASHER: CNN's senior military analyst, James Stavridis, joins us live now. Stavridis is a former NATO Supreme Allied commander and a partner at the
Carlisle Group, a global investment firm. Thank you so much for being with us.
So we're seeing this sort of division, some daylight in terms of what the Russian messaging is right now and also what the likes of Steve Witkoff is
saying.
Sergey Lavrov is essentially saying that it's not necessarily going to be easy to agree to a ceasefire deal with Ukraine. But the Americans are, at
least publicly, saying that they remain optimistic.
How optimistic are you that we're going to see any kind of ceasefire deal at any point in the near future?
JAMES STAVRIDIS, CNN SENIOR MILITARY ANALYST: I have optimism, Zain, but it's increasingly turning into hope, as opposed to a rational indicator of
what's going to happen. If you forced me to put a number on it, I'd say there's maybe, at best, a better than even chance that we get to a
ceasefire, probably toward the end of this year.
And why I am concerned is what you heard from Sergey Lavrov, who has been around Putin throughout his life and career and power. I know Lavrov well.
He's a pretty clear-eyed communicator. And I think when he says we're not ready, translation, we're going to continue to grind away militarily,
trying to improve their position before we get to negotiations.
All of that will require Washington to put real significant pressure on Russia directly on Putin from Trump. Until that happens, I fear that Envoy
Witkoff's optimism is perhaps not real until we can get more pressure on Russia.
GOLODRYGA: Admiral, without that pressure, how is Moscow reading the president's reactions here? Time and time again now, I believe this is
their second meeting in a few months between Steve Witkoff and Vladimir Putin.
Right after these meetings, you see another horrific attack, a strike on Kyiv, by Russians killing innocent civilians. And the president of the
United States just asked about this latest over the weekend in Sumy on Palm Sunday, where children were killed again. And he described it as terrible
and said Russia made a mistake. And then went on to criticize President Zelenskyy for constantly coming and asking for more military equipment and
even suggesting once again that somehow Ukraine started this war.
When these are the headlines coming out of the White House, how are they received in the Kremlin?
STAVRIDIS: Oh, with high-fives. I mean, this is exactly what they would hope for is an interlocutor in Washington who understates the level of
their criminality. And make no mistake and attack like this that they conducted Moscow that you're showing on the right side of the screen.
That's a war crime.
That is going after civilians. There were, as far as I can tell, no significant military figures there. I don't think that's a mistake. I think
it's a war crime.
The only consolation I can take is that the Secretary of State Marco Rubio and one of the key negotiators for the United States, Lieutenant General
Keith Kellogg, who is handling the Ukraine side of the portfolio, while Witkoff handles the Moscow side.
General Kellogg and Secretary of State Marco Rubio both criticized Russia very strongly. I wish the president would get on board with his advisors.
ASHER: So explain why he doesn't, because just as Bianna was saying there, this idea of saying that, oops, you know, it appears that Russia made a
mistake with this attack on Sumy, you know, blaming Zelenskyy for coming back and constantly asking for more. And then also just sort of intimating
that Ukraine started this war.
I think the exact words were something, and I'm paraphrasing here. Like, why would you start a war with somebody 20 times your size is what the
president said at the White House yesterday. So explain that strategy because it's not having a necessary that the intended effect of bringing
Putin that much closer to the negotiating table.
STAVRIDIS: Yes. The best and most charitable explanation you could give, and I don't buy this, would be by working with Russia and trying to
maintain open and friendly communications with Putin. Somehow we will pull them toward us and get them to the table and conduct a negotiation. I think
it's a failed strategy.
[12:20:00]
And frankly, it harkens back to the first Trump administration. When you saw Trump personally, for example, at the Helsinki summit refused to stand
with his own intelligence apparatus in criticizing Russia for interfering in our elections, he was clearly trying very hard to have this positive
relationship with Putin.
I don't think it's a good strategy. It's not working. And his own advisors are going to continue to undercut him. Over time, he's going to find Putin
is no friend of the United States. Putin is a master manipulator who is going to try and do everything he can to ultimately conquer Ukraine.
Why? Because of the good old-fashioned reason that he wants the resources. He wants 40 million Ukrainians. He wants the breadbasket of Europe. He
wants the oil and gas. He is going to maintain focus on locking that down until we firmly and completely call his bluff. Let's hope the president
begins to do that.
ASHER: All right. Admiral, live for us there. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
GOLODRYGA: Thank you.
STAVRIDIS: You bet.
GOLODRYGA: And coming up for us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMER ATTAR, VOLUNTEER SURGEON, AL-AHLI HOSPITAL: I saw patients. I saw their families. There's men, women, and children who can't be evacuated.
They've got broken bones. They can't move. And I just -- I couldn't leave them and just decided to stay put with them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: We hear from an American surgeon who was there when Gaza City's last fully functioning hospital was hit by an Israeli strike.
ASHER: Also had, is Meta a monopoly? CEO Mark Zuckerberg is trying to convince the government that has not the case in a landmark antitrust
trial. If he fails, the implication for Meta's social media portfolio could be massive.
And later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD QUEST, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, CNN BUSINESS: We all thought Barnes & Noble was done. You were out for it. It was out for the count. It was never going
to compete with Amazon. Blah, blah, blah. Turn off the lights.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Back from the brink. America's largest bookstore chain is making a comeback. Hear from the CEO of Barnes & Noble on how he did it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Hamas says that it is studying an Israeli proposal for a 45-day ceasefire in Gaza. Now it would include the exchange of 10 hostages for
hundreds of Palestinian prisoners and detainees and allow for the delivery of much needed humanitarian aid.
[12:25:02]
For the people of Gaza, relief can't come soon enough. An Israeli airstrike early Sunday destroyed part of the last fully functioning hospital in Gaza
City.
ASHER: Dr. Samer Attar, an American surgeon, volunteering there, sent a dispatch from the scene where he showed the immediate aftermath of the
attack.
He described the horrific situation and the scramble to save lives with CNN Eleni Giokos.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ATTAR: Well, I didn't really know what was going on. Nobody really knew what was going on. There was a lot of miscommunication and misinformation
running around.
But I was woke up by a nurse who just told me to get up and run. And I came downstairs thinking that we had to do some surgeries, but I was notified
that there was going to be an operation conducted around the hospital.
But we still had about 40 patients. And I saw patients, I saw their families, just men, women and children who can't be evacuated. They've got
broken bones. They can't move. And I just -- I couldn't leave them and just decided to stay put with them.
ELENI GIOKOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR: It's really quite horrific in rehearing accounts of just the difficulty of evacuating patients.
Tell me what happened in that moment and the ability of staff to get injured patients out and whether these patients could even be moved given
the severity of their injuries.
ATTAR: Well, many of them were on beds and some of them were carried out by staff. Others were carried out by their family members. Those that couldn't
be carried out had to get pushed out on beds with wheels and some ambulances that were available transferred these patients to other
hospitals.
I was told that a lot of these patients were pushed by their family members on their beds in the dark to get to other hospitals. They were just pushing
them along rubble streets for 30 to 60 minutes trying to find another hospital to take them.
And some of them just took their -- took their families home to relatives. Most of them managed to get it out. There was one child that was oxygen-
dependent. And when he was taken off oxygen, ended up being -- ended up dying in the street on its bed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ASHER: The IDF said that they had struck a commander control center used by Hamas in the attack without offering proof. They said, steps had been taken
ahead of the strikes and mitigate harm to civilians and thus denied the allegation that the hospital was being used for military purposes.
GOLODRYGA: Well, two years of war in Sudan have not only driven millions of people from their homes, it's also put unknown numbers of them at risk of
famine.
The situation is worsening as Sudan's paramilitary Rapid Support Forces claims that it seized control of a huge camp for displaced people forcing
hundreds of thousands to flee.
ASHER: Now, the U.N. says the assault left hundreds dead, including humanitarian workers as well. CNN's Salma Abdelaziz has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You are looking at images of a famine- stricken camp where families forced out of their home by war were attacked by a militia accused of genocide. This video verified and geolocated by CNN
shows the Rapid Support Forces, known as the RSF, attacking the sprawling Zamzam camp in the Darfur region of Sudan, forcing thousands of hungry and
desperate people to flee for their lives.
This is what we know right now. The RSF raided the camp, killed dozens of people, set fire to tents in marketplaces, deliberately targeted health
clinics and killed at least nine medical workers according to relief international and aid agency.
This satellite imagery shows that the RSF carried out a scorched-earth policy across an area of 165 football fields.
The RSF, which is seen here celebrating, has denied targeting civilians. Now Darfur, the region where this took place, is the epicenter of a
genocide that was reignited when a civil war broke out between the RSF and the Sudanese army.
That war is now entering its third year and it has triggered what the U.N. calls the world's greatest humanitarian crisis.
Once again, those with a black or African tribal identity are being systematically hunted and killed by Arab militias like the RSF in what has
been determined to be a genocide by the U.S. State Department. And there is no end in sight to this conflict.
Millions of people are unseen, battered, bruised, bombed in besieged, denied medical care and basic services while the warring factions only
exacerbate the suffering.
Salma Abdelaziz, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:30:21]
GOLODRYGA: All right. Welcome back to ONE WORLD. I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ASHER: And I'm Zain Asher.
Meta CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, back in court today, taking a stand in defense of his vast social media company. The Federal Trade Commission accuses
Zuckerberg of buying up competing companies, effectively creating a social media monopoly.
GOLODRYGA: And while Zuckerberg is no stranger to the hot seat, the stakes here are particularly high. If the FTC is successful, Meta could be forced
to sell WhatsApp and Instagram.
Time now for The Exchange. Joining us from Washington, D.C. is Sara Fischer, CNN media analyst and media correspondent for "Axios."
So, Sara, give us the background of this trial and how it relates, if at all, to the sort of change we've seen from Mark Zuckerberg and his
leadership at the company. We saw him at President Trump's inauguration. We saw him turn to be a bit more libertarian in his views. And definitely his
policies even doing away with fact checking on the social media site.
Is there a connection here?
SARA FISCHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: Yes. There's definitely a connection. I mean, this trial is going to dictate, not just the future for Meta, but for
the entire social media landscape.
The Federal Trade Commission, during a first Trump administration, sued Meta for antitrust, alleging that its acquisitions of Instagram in 2012 and
WhatsApp in 2014 were illegal and should be overturned.
They basically are saying that Meta bought up its competitors in order to squash the competition, illegally maintaining its social media dominance.
Now, Meta is pushing back saying, we didn't buy these companies to squash them or to kill competition. We bought them to strengthen our position in
the landscape. It's pointing to a lot of its competitors like TikTok and YouTube saying that, look, we need to act competitively because this isn't
an easy win for us.
[12:35:08]
I think the FTC's got an uphill battle with this case, but we'll see what the outcome comes to. We won't probably have a verdict until the end of the
year. And if we have a verdict, we won't get like a remedy or list of punishments till next year.
ASHER: OK. So let's assume worst-case scenario for Meta that the FTC wins and they are forced to break up the companies and spin off Instagram and
WhatsApp. You talk about how this would basically completely append the entire social media landscape. It would just basically -- it would be a
huge change and a huge blow to the entire ecosystem.
Give us a sense of how and also what this means for -- what this would mean for Meta's core sort of digital advertising business too.
FISCHER: Yes, that's a great question. So if you take a look at what Instagram means for Meta, Instagram is about half of its ad revenue in the
United States, according to e-marketer. So this would cut its business in its most lucrative market in half.
WhatsApp is its largest app in terms of user volume. With nearly three billion users globally, it's like Meta's test kitchen. That's what Meta
uses to roll out new chatbot-like features. It's also core to Meta's relationship with small businesses.
So much of the advertising on Meta, not just within Instagram, but also Facebook and others, is dependent on its relationship with small businesses
around the world and WhatsApp is the primary messaging platform there.
If Meta was forced to divest these two companies, it would be so much weaker. It wouldn't have the inroads with small businesses that it needs to
fuel its ad business. And it would completely change how small businesses do marketing.
I mean, this is one of the biggest marketing platforms, if you're a small or a medium-sized business around the world, suddenly you'd be looking at a
different owner that might have different rules for how these platforms work with you, accept ads, all of that.
GOLODRYGA: And as you noted, Meta is arguing that it is not a monopoly using Google as an example in their purchase of YouTube as well.
Can you talk about the timing of this coinciding with a tell-all book from a former executive at Facebook who has now turned into a whistleblower? I
believe she was testifying before Congress just a few weeks ago, quite damning allegations in her book and among of the accusations that Facebook,
at the time, was cozying up and acquiescing to some demands from China in order to grow its business there.
How is that impacting if at all this case?
FISCHER: Very little impact, Bianna. I've been covering Meta for nearly 10 years and there's a new whistleblower out with a book or with a story every
few months. I don't think that impacts the core of this case.
What's at the core of this case is FTC lawyers are pointing to emails from Meta CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, to other executives for his reasoning in
acquiring Instagram and WhatsApp.
They're looking at those and saying, see, you bought Instagram because you're trying to squish competition. So that's the core of this case. I
don't think whistleblower allegations have much to do with it.
But I do think that when it comes to China, it's an interesting point because we're in this era right now where we're considering whether or not
we enforce a ban of TikTok, which is owned by a Chinese company.
And, Meta, even though they've never outright said that they should -- that we should ban TikTok and there's a lot of reasons for that, they do fund a
very big advocacy campaign here in Washington called the American Edge Project, which basically says that we need to favor American innovation
over Chinese innovation.
So this is coming, Bianna and Zain, at this incredibly chaotic moment for big tech. You know, Google's under investigation for antitrust. So is
Microsoft. So is Amazon. We're considering banning TikTok. It's going to be a wild ride these next few years.
GOLODRYGA: It will be interesting to see if we hear at all from President Trump weighing in throughout this trial.
Sara Fischer, thank you so much for joining us. You will be closely following this.
ASHER: And while the world asks what comes next for Trump tariffs, China's president is working to build trade ties with some of its regional
neighbors. Here's Stephen Jiang with more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVEN JIANG, CNN BEIJING BUREAU CHIEF: Xi Jinping's message to Vietnam and indeed many other countries is to join hands with China to resist Trump's,
quote-unquote, unilateral bullying and work together to maintain the current global free trade system and supply chains.
Now this is going to be repeated and amplified throughout his trip. The goals of his trip, very much twofold, economically, China trying to
continue to diversify its footprint. And it's no coincidence he started in Hanoi because Southeast Asian countries, as a bloc, has replaced the U.S.
and European Union as China's biggest trading partner. And Vietnam having the biggest share among all Southeast Asian nations. That's why Xi Jinping
has signed 45 different deals and agreements with Vietnam, not only trying to sell a lot of products now being shut out at the U.S. but also trying to
invest at helping Vietnam build infrastructure projects.
[12:40:08]
And this is happening despite the long-running territorial dispute between the two countries in the South China Sea. So that really speaks to the
second part of its goal, that is more strategic, more foreign policy related with China trying to pull more and more country closer to its
orbit, even those that may have disputes with Beijing on major issues.
The message here being, if you've been unsettled by the tariff whiplash from Washington, then come hang out with us. Instead of fear and pressure,
as Trump has shown you, we are going to show you love. We are on your side.
Now this message, perhaps a lot more resonant to a lot of countries compared to just a few weeks ago, as China continues to portray itself as
the adult in the room with intensifying trade war with Washington and trying to play the role of the upholder of international order and norms.
And a lot of these countries, though, including Vietnam, have to be a little careful in terms of how they tread. They don't want to be perceived
too close to Beijing and risk-provoking Trump at a time when they still have to and negotiate with the president on their pending tariffs.
And the U.S. president, very much noticing this meeting in Hanoi, characterizing it in his words as China and Vietnam, figuring out how to
screw the USA.
Steven Jiang, CNN, Beijing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ASHER: All right. Coming up, Joe Biden has largely been quiet since leaving the Oval Office. He's going to return to the stage later today in a major
way. We'll have details of that, just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ASHER: All right. Later this afternoon, Joe Biden is going to make his first public speech since leaving office three months ago.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. The former U.S. president will deliver the keynote address at the annual meeting of disability advocates in Chicago.
President Biden will talk about protecting Social Security, as many Democrats gear up for a national day of action against possible cuts to the
program.
CNN correspondent Arlette Saenz joins us now from Washington, D.C.
Arlette, any idea whether or not he's going to wade into the current politics today from his successor?
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's really the big question right now. You know, president -- former president, Joe Biden, had really stayed out
of the public spotlight for many months. But today, that is about to change, as he's set to deliver these remarks about Social Security, the
need to preserve that program.
Now, it comes as President Biden had long warned that Republicans wanted to put Social Security on the chopping block. You have other Democrats today
trying to highlight this issue as well.
But for Biden, this will offer a potential opportunity for him to offer up some criticisms of the current President Donald Trump and Republican plans
going forward.
Biden really is in such a unique position right now as his one-term presidency is sandwiched between two Trump presidencies. He really has
stayed out of the public spotlight. He's been mostly in his home state of Delaware, sometimes coming here to Washington D.C. about once or twice a
week for meetings.
[12:45:12]
But so far, we really haven't heard him weigh in on the Trump presidency. It comes at a time when Democrats have really been struggling with their
messaging as they're trying to find ways to counter Trump's daily actions.
And many Democrats still believe that Biden's insistence on running for reelection is part of a major reason why Trump was reelected. So it'll be
interesting to see how exactly or whether Biden decides to try to take Trump on directly.
Of course, he's long warned about Social Security. And this is an issue that's been quite personal to him and one where he could potentially try to
offer some messaging tips for Democrats going forward, as it relates to how to message around this issue and the former president as in President Trump
as well.
GOLODRYGA: We'll be watching. Arlette Saenz, thank you.
And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Well, it wasn't that long ago that a bricks and mortar bookstore looked like it was becoming a thing of the past as book sales fell and
stores shuttered.
ASHER: Yes. But the times, they are changing. This year, America's largest bookstore chain says it's opening 60 new locations.
Our Richard Quest actually discussed the turnaround with James Daunt, the CEO of Barnes & Noble.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMES DAUNT, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, BARNES & NOBLE: What we're finding is we have this extraordinary strength amongst young people reading. And they
are reading really good books. So they're reading the classics. They're also reading the book of the moment.
QUEST: Yes.
DAUNT: A fantasy book. A romantic book, whatever. But they are not abandoning these books either. They are reading Middlemarch. They're
reading the great classics.
QUEST: We all thought Barnes & Noble was done. You were out. It was out for the count. It was never going to compete with Amazon. Blah, blah, blah.
Turned off the lights.
DAUNT: Well, the reason it had got there, I think it had lost sight of the fact that it needed to run really compelling bookstores and had drifted
away from that corporate principle and started selling too many things that weren't books had tried to cut costs as it got into a certain amount of
difficulty and that created a vicious cycle of ever less attractive stores, ever less compelling stores and declining sales.
[12:50:04]
We were able to relatively quickly just simply reverse that process, concentrate on books, create better bookstores, invest in our people, allow
them the freedom to curate their stores and our sales went up.
QUEST: So what are they doing, these local stores, that you're finding fascinating about how they're doing it? What are they doing? A book is a
book is a book on the shelf.
DAUNT: A book is a book is a book, and it's the same book whether you buy it from Amazon or whether you buy it in a bookstore, whether you buy it
from Barnes & Noble or from an independent bookstore.
But it's the alchemy that you put around within the store, how you juxtaposition the friendliness of the space, the welcome that you get.
But also how we -- how we choose and what we choose to sell, how we curate a table, how we put a display, where we put a recommend. And that is very,
very local.
QUEST: This is the example of what we're talking about now, aren't we? You've got here best-selling on the Upper West Side. We recommend stuff
picks.
DAUNT: Stuff picks.
QUEST: New and noteworthy. So this is really where your philosophy comes into practice. Explain.
DAUNT: This is where the bookstore team here is deciding what they put. You will have a massive bestseller, national bestseller, of course, but you'll
also have the books that they particularly like and some very idiosyncratic picks.
We are in a particular community here. They are deciding what books they want to sell to them. And these are not tables that you will find in every
store. They're different. Some books are, you know, this is everywhere. We're selling lots and lots.
But generally speaking, it's properly themed, properly curated. They've got a lot of kids who use this store, as we can see, running around. So they've
got quite a lot of kids' books. But this is all around the skill and the intellectual engagement that they can provoke through how they curate here.
QUEST: I can read a book review in the newspaper or online. And I want to read the book tomorrow. And Amazon is already in my phone and will deliver
it to me tomorrow.
DAUNT: And Amazon is wonderful in that respect.
QUEST: And you have to compete with that.
DAUNT: Well, we have to compete with that a bit. But also, if you want to come and look at the book, if you want to see what else there is, you will
be much better off doing that in a bookstore.
And in fact, I think Amazon has taken away quite a lot of the need for us to have the books that people are always asking for, which maybe don't
enhance other books, manuals, technical books, all of those myriad of reference books and the like.
And generally speaking, we don't carry those anymore. People know what they want and they buy it.
What we can do is have all the books that you're not quite sure you want or when you simply want to come in and have the serendipity of discovering and
embracing books and also doing it with people. So both doing it with our booksellers but also doing with other customers. It's a very, very social
spaces.
QUEST: In the food chain, you know, Amazon kills off you and you become successful. You kill off the independent bookstore because you're bigger
and you can do better deals. That's the sort of --
DAUNT: I think that's a facile narrative which has actually proved to be wrong that Amazon hasn't killed off the good bookstore at all and
bookstores are now thriving, both independent and chain booksellers. We're going to open 60 stores this year. We're really doing well. And Amazon's
doing well. And other people sell books. Costco sells books. Target sells books and so on.
Books are being read in a wider and wider sense and we play an important part of that. And as they also say, public libraries also play a hugely
important part.
If we're here at 4:00 P.M., it will be a wash of kids coming in after school. It's in the evenings, it's those sort 20-something year olds
because we're a wonderful place to meet, see people not as threatening or as noisy as a bar, but a lovely place to enjoy.
So during from the start of the day to the end of the day, you get the flow of the community coming through it. And because we're so amazing at that
frankly and like no other retailer, we actually apply a decent trade.
QUEST: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUBEUS HAGRID: Of course you'll know all about Hogwarts.
HARRY POTTER: Sorry, no.
RUBEUS HAGRID: No? Blimey, Harry, didn't you ever wonder where your mum and dad learned it all?
HARRY POTTER: Learn what?
RUBEUS HAGRID: You're a wizard, Harry.
HARRY POTTER: I'm a what?
RUBEUS HAGRID: A wizard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: The words that changed the lives of both Harry Potter and the many millions of fans under the spell of J.K. Rowling's wizarding world.
[12:55:01]
Soon, a new generation will delve into the magic with an all-new Harry Potter TV series. It's being produced by HBO, which is owned by CNN's
parent company, Warner Brothers Discovery. And the world has been getting a sneak peek at its cast.
ASHER: Yes. It actually includes Oscar nominee and six-time Emmy winner Jon Lithgow, as Professor Dumbledore. He's no stranger to kids' entertainment.
He also was a legend of the "Shrek" franchise too.
Fellow Oscar nominee, Janet McTeer, will play Hogwart's deputy head professor, McGonagall. Nick Frost -- this is a great cast by the way. Nick
Frost takes over from the late Robbie Coltrane train as Hagrid.
And from Hamlet to Hogwarts, Olivier nominee, Paapa Essiedu, will portray potions master, Severus Snape.
GOLODRYGA: That will be some must --
ASHER: Gosh. Yes.
GOLODRYGA: -- watch film.
ASHER: How many Oscar nominees and winners?
GOLODRYGA: Exactly, exactly. It'll be fun for a new generation of kids as well.
ASHER: Yes. I think it's a bit too young though. Six. You have to be a little older to watch Harry Potter, right?
GOLODRYGA: I don't know.
ASHER: Maybe eight, nine. I'll wait.
GOLODRYGA: Maybe.
ASHER: I'll wait a few years.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Well, that does it for ONE WORLD. I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ASHER: I'm Zain Asher. Thank you so much for watching. Don't go anywhere. I always love -- I just -- I always end up reading up.
Do you want to finish that? Go ahead.
GOLODRYGA: I will be right back with "AMANPOUR." Please stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:00:00]
END
