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One World with Zain Asher
CNN International: Fed Chair: Trump's tariffs "Significantly Larger" Than Expected; Trump Lashes Out At Fed Chair Jerome Powell; Italy PM: Negotiations With U.S. Should Aim At Removing All Tariffs. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired April 17, 2025 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAIN ASHER, HOST, "ONE WORLD": All right. President Trump versus the Fed Chair.
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, HOST, "ONE WORLD": One World starts right now.
Donald Trump slamming the head of America's independent central bank, saying, quote, "His termination cannot come fast enough."
ASHER: Plus, new reporting from The New York Times claiming Trump rejected an Israeli plan to strike Iran's nuclear facilities, instead choosing to
pursue diplomacy for now. We'll talk to the reporter who contributed that story.
GOLODRYGA: And the truth is out there. Scientists say they have their strongest evidence yet, but there is life beyond Earth.
Hello, everyone. Live from New York, I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ASHER: And I'm Zain Asher. You are watching One World.
All right. So, in about an hour from now, Italy's Prime Minister arrives at the White House to meet with President Donald Trump. The stakes are really
high for Giorgia Meloni and Europe as well. She is hoping to carry enough favor with Donald Trump to ease his trade war with the European Union.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah. Meloni is in a unique position to do this. As a conservative Trump ally, she may have the influence to strike a deal in
favor of the EU bloc. Now, the tariffs Meloni wants to ease are doing nothing to help the U.S. economy. That's the word from Fed Chair Jerome
Powell.
ASHER: Yeah. In a speech on Wednesday, he laid it out clearly that tariffs are dragging down the American economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEROME POWELL, CHAIR OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE OF THE UNITED STATES: The level of tariff increases announced so far is significantly larger than
anticipated, and the same is likely to be true of the economic effects, which will include higher inflation and slower growth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: In a Truth Social post this morning, Trump lashed out at Powell for not cutting interest rates. He says that Powell's termination, in his
words, cannot come fast enough. Last week, we spoke to Powell's predecessor in an exclusive CNN interview, who, of course, disagrees.
GOLODRYGA: Well, we're also covering these developments on both sides of the Atlantic. Ben Wedeman is in Rome. But, we begin with Kevin Liptak at
the White House.
Kevin, as the President is expecting Meloni, who he called a wonderful woman in the past, she is described as the Trump whisperer, he is also
facing a lot of pushback to what, at this point, given his history with Jay Powell, was widely expected, and that is condemnation of how the Fed Chair
is behaving in his independent role, which he is legally bound to until next year.
KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yeah, and the grapes that the President is pointing to, at least on Truth Social, have to do with
interest rates and the Fed's decision not to cut in the near term. But, certainly, Powell's comments yesterday about the tariffs have gotten under
the President's skin. And Powell has been someone who Trump has gone after many times, including during his first term. Their relationship soured
pretty quickly after the President elevated him to the top role at the Fed.
But, I think what's different this time is the President has already shown a willingness to blow past some of these independent agencies to really try
and exert influence in a way that no President has done before. And so, when the President says on Truth Social that Powell's termination cannot
come fast enough, I think people are taking seriously what he is saying here. Of course, the President, according to almost every legal scholar,
cannot fire the head of the Federal Reserve. This is an independent agency. It operates outside of political influence. Powell himself has said that he
will not resign and that it would be illegal for the President to try and fire him.
But, this is a President who has crossed all kinds of boundaries on this sort of thing previously. He has removed officials at the Federal Trade
Commission, at the NLRB, all of these places that are supposedly supposed to be independent, and the Supreme Court has allowed him to do it, at least
temporarily, as it continues to consider the legality of all of this. And so, when the President talks about this kind of thing, I think you have to
take it seriously, and it is shaping up to now be a clash between Jay Powell, who still has a year left on his term, and the President.
And just to read you a little bit of what the President said in his Truth Social, his ire seemed to be have been peaked by the European Central Bank,
which did cut rates today. He said, "The ECB is expected to cut interest rates for the 7th time, and yet, quote, "Too Late", unquote, Jerome Powell
of the Fed, who is always TOO LATE AND WRONG, yesterday issued a report which was another, and typical, complete "mess!""
[11:05:00]
He goes on to say, "Too late", which I guess is his name for Powell, "should have lowered Interest Rates, like the ECB, long ago, and he should
certainly lower them now."
And so, the President is not the first President who had issues with the Fed. The Biden administration would have liked Jay Powell to cut rates in
the same sort of way, but you never really saw Biden go after him personally. And I think it is now setting up for an extraordinary clash
between the White House and the head of the independent central bank.
ASHER: And Kevin, just in terms of Giorgia Meloni's visit to the White House today, I mean, it's interesting, because obviously these obviously
these two get along really well. You think about the fact that Giorgia Meloni is the only, or was the only EU leader to be invited for Donald
Trump's inauguration, and also, she is the first EU leader to be invited to the White House since these tariffs were announced. I think the question
is, though, can she really be the bridge that Europe needs her to be between the White House and the EU?
LIPTAK: Yeah. It will be the first real test of that position that she has set herself up to be since the President came into office. These tariffs
will be interesting, because, obviously, Giorgia Meloni is not going to be negotiating a new trade deal for the entire European Union. That is a role
for the negotiators in Brussels and for Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission President. I think the real hope among Europeans and among the
Italians is that she will get some more clarity from the President about what exactly he is looking for in a trade deal with the European Union. He
has not spoken to Ursula von der Leyen since he took office, which is something of a remarkable fact, but maybe not all that surprising, given
his animus towards the EU.
This, I think, will be an opportunity for her to hear him out, to sit in the Oval Office and discuss some of these trade issues, and then report
back to Brussels about what exactly the President could be looking for in a potential trade deal, because Italy is a country that could be severely
affected by this. It obviously has a pretty significant trade surplus with the United States. Americans love Parmesan cheese, Gucci bags and Chianti.
And so, I think what you'll hear him talk about is trying to come up with ways to lower some of the trade barriers there, but it will be a real test.
Obviously, she is closely aligned with him ideologically, but she has also been pretty critical of these tariffs. She has also been somewhat critical
of his stance on Ukraine, saying that Europe cannot be divided and the West cannot be divided. And so, I think how this meeting goes today will be sort
of evidence of whether that bridge role that she has assumed can be a successful one.
ASHER: My favorite line there, Americans love Gucci bags. Oh yes, they do.
GOLODRYGA: She has also formed a close relationship with Elon Musk. But, we should note, despite how tied he is with President Trump, it appears, on
this issue, at least when it comes to tariffs, which he has also disagreed with in this administration, the President is not heeding his concerns
right now.
Let's go to Ben Wedeman for more on this visit, and this is going to be a true test for whether or not a special relationship between these two
leaders can circumvent what other European officials have not been able to crack yet, and that is coming to any sort of conclusion or decision as to
what these tariffs will ultimately look like, and knowing the weight that this carries, it was funny to see that Giorgia Meloni, before she left for
this trip in Rome, said, Oh, listen, I'm feeling no pressure at all for my next two days. She knows what's at stake here, Ben.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: She does know what's at stake, but she also knows that unique among almost all other European
leaders, she has a good relationship with President Trump, who has called her wonderful and fantastic, and they see eye to eye on things like
immigration. They are both hard far-right leaders. So, they do have a lot in common. And oddly enough, Italy has one of the most stable governments
of the major European economic powers. Meloni has been in power now for almost three years. That for a country which for a long time was synonymous
with political instability and constantly changing government.
So, she is approaching this meeting with a certain amount of confidence, and she has made it clear that her goal is to at least lay the groundwork
for some sort of negotiations that would get around these tariffs that were announced by President Trump on his so-called Independence Day on the
second of April, and then paused temporarily for 90 days.
[11:10:00]
This is what she told an Italian journalist just two days after Trump's so- called Independence Day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIORGIA MELONI, ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER (Interpreted): At the Italian and European levels, we must open a dialog in a negotiation that must be open
with the United States to fix solutions. Where do I think the negotiations should go? Towards removing all tariffs. They're multiplying them. After
that, the negotiations are done in two.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But, you still hope for this dialog with the United States.
MELONI (Interpreted): Look, it's not a question of hope. I believe it's what has to be done for our interest, for the interest of our economy, for
the European interest, for the Western interest, and therefore, I pursue what I believe to be the right one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEDEMAN: Now, the question is, many Italians and other Europeans are asking, is Giorgia Meloni going to go meet with Trump and try to pursue
strictly Italian interests, or is she going to resent -- represent the greater European Union? Certainly, what we've seen over the last few years
is that she does -- despite her political opposition in the past to the European Union, she has been fairly in line with the main line of political
thinking within the European Union. And for instance, Italy did vote, along with 25 other EU states, to impose retaliatory tariffs after Trump's
Independence Day. Of course, the European tariffs have been suspended after Trump called that 90-day pause.
But, on things like Ukraine, they clearly do not see eye to eye. Meloni has met with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy more than a dozen times
since the beginning of the war, the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine in February of 2022.
Now, sort of speaking generally, how Italians view President Trump, generally negative. There was a poll conducted back in January by the
polling institute here, Demopolis, which found back in January that 42 percent of Italians had a positive view of Trump. That has now dropped to
23 percent. And speaking anecdotally, I haven't met an Italian who is not upset with the tariffs, worried about the situation in the United States.
Many Italians I've spoken to have decided to cancel travel, vacations, holidays to the United States, given all the stories coming out about
harassment and occasional detention of tourists going to the United States. So, even though Meloni enjoys a good relationship with Trump, many Italians
are very skeptical about this U.S. President.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah. Tourism is a really big aspect here of this tariff war now and trade war, because, as we've seen, the U.S. dollar declining in value
(ph). You may see fewer tourists going to places like Italy and other countries throughout Europe, from the United States as well, in the days
and weeks to come.
Ben Wedeman, thank you so much.
ASHER: All right. Happening now in Paris, talks in the war in Ukraine are underway between top Trump officials and key European allies.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah. Here you see U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio greeting French President Emmanuel Macron. Special Envoy Steve Witkoff is also
there, as is a Ukrainian delegation. Now, the U.S. says Rubio and Witkoff are there to, quote, "advance President Trump's goal to end the Russia-
Ukraine war", a war that appears to have no end in sight. Russia has once again ramped up its strikes in recent weeks. Across Ukraine, overnight,
strikes killed at least five people.
ASHER: Our Nic Robertson joins us live now from London with more. So, Nic, I think the obvious question for the Ukrainians is, given just a sheer
amount of overtures, the sheer amount of sympathy we've seen from the Americans towards Moscow, how genuinely committed are the Americans to
Ukraine?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: I think that's the question, right? And I think we have President Zelenskyy talk about this
not so long ago, saying it requires more work. Certainly, this will be the message that will come from these European leaders that they'll meet with
today. The British foreign minister is expected to be in the meetings, along with French and German counterparts, as well as that meeting, you saw
Marco Rubio and Steve Witkoff having -- with President Macron, and it's important because there hasn't been a meeting like this since February
about the conversations that the United States is having through Steve Witkoff, in principle, with President Putin.
There is real consternation emerging that while Ukraine has signed up for this ceasefire without conditions, Russia still prevaricates. President
Putin puts up all sorts of roadblocks and different ideas in the way, and the sense coming from European leaders and European intelligence agencies
is that Putin isn't committed.
[11:15:00]
So, while Macron and the others would love to hear from Witkoff, about precisely what Putin is telling him, Macron and the others probably have
points of view and experience of dealing with Putin, particularly in the case of Macron, though they want to communicate to Witkoff as well. And
it's been interesting for me to see that some of those people involved in the meetings today with these -- with this U.S. delegation, are national
security advisors like Jonathan Powell from the UK, who was very significant negotiating the Northern Ireland peace agreement many decades
ago, and is seen as a sort of a heavy hitter in this area, and I think it's very fair to say that there will be people in his department that feel that
Putin doesn't want genuine peace talks at the moment, that believes he can still win this on the battlefield.
So, I think these will be the context of the conversations for both sides to listen to each other, but really, potentially for the Europeans here to
press the U.S., to press Russia to get on with this ceasefire that President Trump really wants and wanted some time ago.
ASHER: All right. Nic Robertson live for us there. Thank you.
All right. Still to come, Israel carries out deadly strikes on two displacement camps in Gaza. We'll bring you the latest on the conflict
there.
GOLODRYGA: Plus, new reporting from The New York Times claiming that President Trump waved off a planned Israeli strike on Iran's nuclear
facilities. We'll talk about that and the ongoing U.S.-Iran talks, up next.
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GOLODRYGA: Overnight in Gaza, Israel struck two separate tent encampments housing families displaced by the war. Here you can see flames engulfing a
camp in Khan Younis, as emergency responders try to contain the blaze.
ASHER: Yeah. The airstrike on the camp killed at least 15 people, most of them women and children. That's according to Gaza Civil Defense Ministry.
Another strike hit a displacement camp in northern Gaza, killing and injuring several people, according to Gaza officials. Israel has repeatedly
claimed it is targeting Hamas infrastructure and militants.
Meantime, we are following a series of high-level meetings leading up to the next round of U.S.-Iran nuclear negotiations. The Iranian foreign
minister arrived in Moscow today to shore up the support from the Kremlin, and the Saudi defense minister is in Iran on a rare visit. It is the first
trip to Iran by a senior Saudi Royal in decades.
[11:20:00]
GOLODRYGA: Now, it all comes ahead of the second round of talks this weekend, and Iran is doubling down on its right to maintain its uranium
enrichment program. The foreign minister says it's, quote," non- negotiable".
Ronen Bergman is a Staff Writer at The New York Times Magazine. He joins us now live. Ronan's latest reporting in The New York Times says Israel
developed plans to attack Iranian nuclear facilities, but President Trump waved them off in favor of diplomacy with Iran.
Ronan, good to see you. Really incredible reporting here. And before we get into what finally drove President Trump to at least temporarily wave this
attack off, your reporting suggests that Israel was prepared to go through with it as soon as next month, and you also write, almost all of the plans
would have required U.S. help, not just to defend Israel from Iran's retaliation, but also to ensure that an Israeli attack was successful,
making the United States a central part of the attack itself. Can you walk us into what you've learned about what this attack would have actually
entailed?
RONEN BERGMAN, STAFF WRITER, NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE: Yes. Hi Bianna, and Hi Zain. And this is a story that we published in The New York Times,
together with Julian Barnes, Eric Schmidt, and Maggie Haberman. The story is an extraordinary planning, unique that never happened before, that was
not yet and maybe will never be authorized by the President, but was very, very advanced, and it's based on tectonic changes in the Middle East, many
of the factors that created, I would say, negative views towards the possible strike, both in the Israeli arm and in the American military, in
Central Command, vanished, changed. No more Hezbollah as a major force. The Syrian Air Defense are not there. The strategic air defense of Iran were
taken out a time of weakness for the so-called Axis of Resistance.
And that gave, I would say, a motivation for both the Israeli military and for CENTCOM with its chief, General Kurilla to push forward for a join plan
that, as you mentioned, Bianna, it was not just about having the U.S. helping protecting Israel, as happened in the previous Iranian attacks,
missile attacks in April and October of last year, but actual participation, the relocation of American fighting squadrons into the
Middle East and the situation of bombers, of B-2 bombers to Diego Garcia to the Indian Ocean, they are central, with their ability to carry the mother
of all bombs is 13 tons, massive, massive bomb that can penetrate deep down into the bunkers of the Iranian enrichment project.
And the fact that it continued for very long time and advanced and led to massive American military build-up, where Israel thought, or people in
Israel, including I think Prime Minister Netanyahu thought, that this will lead the dynamic, and the support from someone like General Kurilla will
lead, at the end, to American strike. By the way, it can still lead to American strike. But, for the time being, this was put on hold because the
voices, as we revealed in that story, in The Times, voices in the administration, inside the Trump administration, the more dovish voices
that said is the U.S. should not go to something that could deteriorate into a regional war, before trying to negotiate a new nuclear deal with
Iran, now with Iranian consent to start this dialog.
ASHER: I mean, it's really interesting, isn't it, because obviously Israel cannot launch an attack against Iran's nuclear sites without knowing for
sure that America is going to have its back. But, just in terms, I want you to expand on just the rationale for the Trump administration. Obviously,
there is two avenues that they could pursue. One is, of course, the diplomatic route, which they chose to end up pursuing, and the other was
the sort of military route. Obviously, you pointed out that they ended up thinking that the diplomatic route, at least for the time being, was a
better option, at least to begin with. Just explain to us how that thought process and that rationale actually works.
BERGMAN: There are two school of thoughts here, one that would claim this is a historical opportunity for Israel and for U.S., something that might
not be coming again to strike Iran in its weakest time in recent decades, and the other school of thought would say, the other vector in the
administration would say, because of this weakness, maybe a dialog can force Iran into massive concessions in the nuclear -- in its nuclear
capabilities and activities that would not require to go to just the threat of attack.
[11:25:00]
It could lead to something that would not need an attack.
I think there was something else here. There were people -- there were voices, as senior American sources, officials are telling us, there were
voices inside the administration who started to warn the President. There were two consultations at the Oval Office just recently that just the
American military build-up, coupled with the threats of the President to act, could lead the U.S. into a position where Iran might not agree to a
deal, or might not agree to negotiate, and then the U.S. will be sort of forced to act, meaning the U.S. will find itself into some kind of
situation that could deter it to war.
The other thing is that the strategic group tried to assess what will happen if a strike, if American-Israeli strike, is executed, basically
concluded that the chances of this be only a strike without Iranian reaction, sending massive bombardment of surface-to-surface, long-range
ballistic missile into Israel, forcing Israel to retaliate. The Iranian retaliate again, and quite soon, the whole region will be into a new war,
something that the United States doesn't like.
And at the end, in the last minute, came that letter from Iran, contradicting the previous negative response from the Supreme Leader, now
saying, Iran is sort of ready to indirect talks, and at the end, at the peak of that, the President decided in favor of talks, at least for now.
General Kurilla came to Israel. He informed his Israeli counterparts that for the time being, the preparations are going to be stopped. They conveyed
it to Prime Minister Netanyahu when he was in Budapest. He called President Trump, tried to convince him over the phone. The President said, this is
not something that we discuss over the phone. Come over. And we saw this hasty and I think quite poorly in terms of consequences, visit of Prime
Minister Netanyahu.
What we saw overtly, the President announced, in direct talk with Iran, was just the, I would say, the cover for maybe something much more dramatic,
behind the scenes --
GOLODRYGA: Yeah.
BERGMAN: -- where the President told Prime Minister Netanyahu that, at least for the time being, no attack is coming.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah. That was universally viewed as quite an embarrassing moment there for Prime Minister Netanyahu, who had nothing that he could
say other than he agrees to these talks, as long as the nuclear program itself will be disbanded, and there is a lot of confusion as to where the
U.S. is on this issue, disband the whole program, or will the U.S. settle for what happened in 2015 that President Trump, ultimately, then tore up
the JCPOA, and that was just making sure Iran is not capable of producing a bomb, and that's where things stand once again today in 2025.
Ronen Bergman, fascinating reporting. Thank you so much.
ASHER: Thank you, Ronen.
BERGMAN: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, still to come on One World, an in-depth look at trade tensions between the U.S. and Europe. We'll be joined by Euractiv Editor-
in-Chief, Matthew Karnitschnig.
ASHER: Plus, scientists have discovered the strongest evidence yet of life on an alien planet. Coming up, we'll have the lead researcher of that study
right here on One World.
GOLODRYGA: I love looking at those images.
ASHER: Incredible.
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[11:30:00]
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ASHER: All right. Welcome back to One World. I'm Zain Asher.
GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. Here are some international headlines we're watching today.
ASHER: The Trump administration is threatening to strip Harvard University of its ability to enroll international students if it doesn't turn over
certain records. The Ivy League college is assessing its next step after refusing to make policy changes the White House is demanding, a stand that
could cost Harvard billions of dollars in federal funds.
GOLODRYGA: Pope Francis has delegated Cardinals to lead Holy Week and Easter services at the Vatican, as he recovers from his near-death bout of
double pneumonia. He did meet with prison inmates earlier, and at this hour, the mass of the Lord's Supper is set to get underway, which may
include the ritual foot washing. It's unclear whether Pope Francis will attend.
ASHER: In a new report, the World Trade Organization is warning that President Trump's global trade war will damage economies around the world,
especially the North American region, which is dominated by the U.S. A shrinking economy typically means fewer jobs and widespread financial pain.
GOLODRYGA: Italy's Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni is set to meet with Donald Trump today in Washington, in an effort to cut a more favorable deal on EU
tariffs. The right-wing Meloni has close ties with Trump, and is the first European leader to meet with him since his trade war with the bloc began.
ASHER: All right. For a closer look at how the tariffs are playing out between the U.S. and Europe, I want to bring in Matthew Karnitschnig. He is
the Editor-in-Chief at Euractiv and was previously Chief Europe Correspondent for POLITICO Europe.
Matthew, I want to start with a Truth Social post that Donald Trump made this morning, if we just pull it up, essentially attacking Jerome Powell,
saying that he should be cutting interest rates. And what he did was he compared it to what was happening with Europe, the fact that the ECB today
did actually end up cutting interest rates by a quarter of one percent. I think it's important for our viewers to note, though, obviously, aside from
the fact that the Fed is, of course, independent, politically, it is important to note that Europe and the United States are not in the same
boat economically. Europe is dealing with slower growth, but they don't have the same inflationary pressures that the U.S. has right now, which is
why it is a feasible option for them at this point to cut interest rates.
Just talk to us about what is at stake for Europe, especially when you consider the fact that the U.S. is its largest trading partner. What is at
stake for Europe with a potential trade deal -- getting a potential trade deal done?
MATTHEW KARNITSCHNIG, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, EURACTIV: Well, thanks for having me. I think it's hard to overstate how important trade with the United
States is for Europe, for the European Union. The United States is the largest trading partner, and it's even more important for individual
countries such as Germany.
[11:35:00]
So, without some kind of resolution of this trade war in the near term, Europe is really going to feel economic pain, and I think this is part of
the thinking at the ECB. They're trying to kind of buffer what is going on in the trade world. As you said, Europe has a different economic situation
at the moment on various fronts in the United States, and the ECB, of course, is also independent, but I think that they're definitely keeping an
eye on what is going on in this trade relationship with the United States at the moment.
GOLODRYGA: Matthew, notwithstanding whatever bilateral relationships President Trump may have, and incidentally, with Giorgia Meloni, he has a
very good relationship with her, has described her as a fantastic woman. We know that overall, he views the EU quite negatively. He describes it as
being formed just to, his word, screw the United States. What does it tell you that now, about two and a half weeks into his tariff proposal, and then
the pause on the reciprocal tariffs that all EU officials have said coming out of the meetings in Washington is expressing pessimism, the fact that
they have made little to no inroads on any agreement regarding trade.
KARNITSCHNIG: Well, it doesn't bode well for the future of these talks, or for Meloni's discussions with Trump today. I think what the Trump
administration has tried to do up to now has been to divide and rule the EU because, as you say, they have this long-standing antipathy towards the
European Union. I think Trump feels that he was personally mistreated by the EU in Ireland, where he had a golf course. This goes back some years.
So, this has been an issue that he has brought up repeatedly over the years, and in particular, how the EU has been out to undermine the United
States. Now, that might be ahistorical, but the fact is, this is what the President of the United States believes.
So, the European Union has really been at a loss in terms of how to handle this situation. It's notable that the President of the European Union,
Ursula von der Leyen, has yet to meet with Trump in this term, and you've seen leaders, including Meloni today, but also French President Emmanuel
Macron and the British Prime Minister, of course, Keir Starmer, going to Washington to speak to him. The UK is not a member of the EU, obviously.
But, you can see still that there have been these attempts to get on his good side by countries all across Europe, which really underscores how
worried they are about where things are headed.
ASHER: And just in terms of what Giorgia Meloni can actually achieve today, I mean, obviously, when it comes to sort of negotiating a deal on behalf of
the whole of the EU, I mean, that's virtually impossible, because you're obviously talking about 27 member states, so, what can she actually
achieve? Is it about trying to get some kind of concession to take back to Ursula von der Leyen and discuss that, or is she also going to try to carve
out any kind of special protection for Italy? Just give us a sense of what she can achieve here.
KARNITSCHNIG: Well, I suspect that she would try to carve out some sort of special deal for Italy. I think that will be very difficult. We've seen
that a little bit in the past, because the way some of these tariffs are written, they can be designed in such a way that they will only affect
certain types of cheeses and not Parmesan, for example, or they'll affect certain types of sparkling wine, but not Prosecco or something. But, I
think, overall, that's going to be very difficult, because Italy has a $45 billion trade deficit with the United States. So, this is something that
Trump is not going to ignore.
I think what you know the Europeans can really hope for is that she will be able to improve the tone somewhat, because, as you say, he has described
her as a wonderful person. He likes her. I mean, we'll see how far that gets here today. But, ultimately, it will be up to the bloc itself to
negotiate with the United States, because all of the Europe -- all of the European trade rules apply to the entire bloc, and not just to a couple of
countries. So, I think this is probably a meeting that will be more about the mood music than the substance. Meloni also has a good relationship with
Elon Musk. They've met several times recently and seem to have hit it off. So, I suspect that she is going to try and create some goodwill. She was
also the only European leader to attend the inauguration, of course.
[11:40:00]
ASHER: Yeah. And she is not only the first -- the only European leader to be invited to the inauguration, but also, she is the first European leader
to literally be invited to the White House after these tariffs were announced. She does play this special kind of unique role as a bridge
between the EU and the United States.
All right. Matthew Karnitschnig, Editor-in-Chief of Euractiv, thank you for your time today, Matthew. Appreciate it.
GOLODRYGA: And still to come, the Trump administration is fighting back, after a federal judge threatens to find the government in criminal
contempt. We'll have the latest in the deportation battle, just ahead.
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GOLODRYGA: The fight between the Trump administration and the judiciary is escalating, as the Justice Department files an appeal after a federal judge
ruled that probable cause exists to hold Trump administration officials in contempt. Now, he says they showed willful disregard for his order to turn
around deportation flights to El Salvador last month.
ASHER: The White House used the Aliens Enemies Act to deport hundreds of alleged Venezuelan gang members, saying they were part of an invasion of
the U.S., and they're now being held at a notorious prison in El Salvador.
CNN's Katelyn Polantz reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: There has been a lot of speculation of whether the Trump administration was openly defying
courts. This is the first time a federal judge has made findings that, yes, it appears with probable cause that the Trump administration, it's lawyers
from the Justice Department that they're willfully, even gleefully, at times, openly disobeying a court. Now, this finding from Judge Jeb Boasberg
of the federal court in Washington, he wrote a 46-page opinion about this, laying out exactly what had happened with the lawyers in his courtroom,
especially on March 15th, the day that he held a hearing and that there were flights taking migrants from the U.S. to a prison in El Salvador to
hand them over to the Salvadoran government.
Judge Boasberg had told the Trump administration in the middle of those flights being in the air, turn the planes around and they were not yet.
What Judge Boasberg is saying is he gave the administration an opportunity to explain themselves. It wasn't sufficient. Now they are on the path to a
possible criminal contempt conviction. What the judge writes? "The Court does not reach such conclusion lightly or hastily; indeed, it has given
Defendants ample opportunity to rectify or explain their actions. None of their responses has been satisfactory."
[11:45:00]
This is very likely going to be playing into the political discussion that Donald Trump and others in the administration keep having, trying to attack
judges and saying they shouldn't have any ability to tell Donald Trump what to do related to immigration and to take steps like this. Trump even
putting on social media. He believed this court was out of control.
The White House is also appealing this decision from Judge Boasberg, but the ball is still in his court, Judge Boasberg's court in Washington. He is
going to be taking the administration down, contempt proceedings, putting people under oath, getting more statements about exactly how and who were
making the decisions on March 15th to not violate his orders, and then potentially to have a conviction that would result in some level of
punishment if there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt of it, of criminal contempt for the administration.
Back to you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ASHER: Katelyn Polantz reporting there.
All right. We might soon have to call this show, change its name, basically, from One World to Many Worlds. That's because scientists say
there is evidence of life on other -- it's actually arrogant of us to say One World.
GOLODRYGA: Listen. We welcome viewers from however many planets there are out there --
ASHER: I think there are five.
GOLODRYGA: -- that can watch us. More potential viewers. I mean, that helps. We'll speak to a lead researcher after the break, because, of
course, it's all about us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ASHER: All right. Scientists have found what they say is the strongest evidence of life on an alien planet.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah. Using the ultra-powerful James Webb Space Telescope, the potential landmark discovery shows significant signs of possible life
beyond our solar system.
ASHER: Scientists were able to detect chemical fingerprints of gasses on an alien planet's atmosphere, something that's only produced by biological
processes on Earth. They came from the planet named K2-18b. I have to ask about the name too. The gas is usually generated mostly by microbes like
(inaudible), found on our planet.
GOLODRYGA: Let's bring in Professor of Astrophysics and Exoplanetary Science at the University of Cambridge, Nikku Madhusudhan. Not only is he
part of Cambridge's Institute of Astronomy, he is also the lead researcher of the evidence of life beyond Earth.
[11:50:00]
Professor, we've been so looking forward to this conversation with you. This is rather exciting, and you call this a revolutionary moment, as it is
the first time humanity has seen potential biosignatures a habitable planet, and it all comes in the form of a molecule, as Zain had described,
which shares -- which is exactly a similar molecule that we have here on Earth. What is the significance of this molecule?
NIKKU MADHUSUDHAN, PROFESSOR, CAMBRIDGE INSTITUTE OF ASTRONOMY: Yeah. Hi. Glad to be on here. The molecule DMS, and potentially one other molecule,
dimethyl disulfide, we are seeing hints of at least one of the two molecules, maybe even both, and both of these molecules are known to be
uniquely produced by life here on Earth, mostly by microorganisms and organic matter in general. And the amounts that we are seeing on this
planet, it is -- currently, we don't know of an abiotic process, non- biological process that can cause these molecules in the atmosphere at the levels we are seeing. So, that is sort of the hints for biological activity
that we may be seeing.
But, we also want to be extremely careful in -- at this stage. This is very early stage, and we don't want to rule out non-biological process. But, I
want to take a step back and for us, as a species, to appreciate how far we have come, the -- even the act of being able to detect these molecules in a
habitable zone planet 120 light years away is a huge technological achievement, and that, in my mind, is the real breakthrough for us as a
species, how far we have come as an advanced civilization.
ASHER: When you put it like that, I mean, it's incredibly humbling, not just the fact that they're -- we're seeing signs of potential life on
another planet, but just, you're right, how far we've come, just in terms of the science and the technology to even be able to detect the compound
known as dimethyl sulfide, as you were just mentioning. So, how do we know, for sure, or when will we know for sure, probably is a better question, if
this planet is actually habitable?
MADHUSUDHAN: Yeah. So, we don't have a definite timeline. Obviously, this is a major, major area of study, and we don't want to quickly go to
conclusions whether we have detected life. We want to take our time, and we have done that for this observation as well. We have taken our time, did
very robust studies, but we want to do more observations to confirm if the signal that we are seeing is real and we want it to be confirmed robustly
at a confidence such that there is less than one part in a million chance of it being a complete fluke. That is the level of robustness we are aiming
for here. We are not there yet. We are a few parts in a thousand chance of a fluke. But, we want to go much further.
And we also want to do theoretical studies and experimental studies to make sure that there is like no other abiotic process that we have missed as a
field that could explain these abundances. But, so far, based on the knowledge that we have currently, the only way we can interpret it is a
biological process causing significant amount of these fluxes on this planet. But, we want to remain open, obviously.
GOLODRYGA: You talk about taking a minute to note the inroads and advances in technology and science that got us and you, specifically, we had nothing
to do with it. It was you and your brilliant colleagues. To this moment, can you speak to the impact of something as powerful as the James Webb
Telescope and the role that it has played here in helping you as a tool relative to its predecessor, the Hubble?
MADHUSUDHAN: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of you to attribute the success to me and my team, but actually, I think you are also involved in an indirect
way. And the marvel that JWST is, it comes from remarkable efforts from thousands of people over decades with NASA, the Canadian Space Agency. All
of us, as a society, as a civilization, are responsible for the technological marvel that is, and we have put that icing on the cake with
our science. But, fundamentally, that's how I view it is that it's our contribution as a society where we are, that we are able to do this
science, and it would not have possible without what these agencies have done for us, right? So, it's all our result, in that sense.
And more specifically, for this science, yes, we have detected these molecules at the level we are talking about here, and we want to remain
open, and we'll see. If this is confirmed, this is going to be a major transformational moment in the history of science. If this is confirmed,
like maybe in a couple of decades, we might look back at science and think that that's when that breakthrough happened, and that was its turning
point. It is also possible that in a few years, we'll realize that actually there is other -- another chemical processes -- process that could explain
this, and that would be a discovery of new chemical process.
[11:55:00]
So, however you cut it, I think this is a win for science.
ASHER: Also, one of the other things that I think is really interesting when we talked about dimethyl sulfide, and that being the molecule that
essentially is indicative of the potentiality for life. But, I think that one of the things that you and your researchers are working on is to figure
out whether or not this compound behaves differently on this planet, K2- 18b, which I find that name really interesting, by the way, whether it behaves the same there as it does on Earth. Can you talk to us about that?
MADHUSUDHAN: Yeah. Absolutely. So, this molecule has been robustly claimed to be a biosignature, as it is on Earth. It cannot be -- it is not produced
by -- significantly by any other non-biological process. But, the same molecule has also been predicted to be a robust biomarker in hydrogen-rich
environments, like the planet that we are looking at, this potential Hycean world with an ocean-covered surface and a hydrogen-rich atmosphere, which
is what we think this planet could be.
So, it has also been predicted to be a biomarker in those environments. And this goes back two decades. However, we want to, again, remain open. We
don't know the unknown unknowns, right? So, we want to remain open and do theoretical investigations to see if we can produce large amounts of this
molecule in such environments. We are talking about thousands of times more concentrations than on Earth.
GOLODRYGA: Nikku, be sure to reach back out to us if you hear from Elon Musk about wanting to get a spacecraft over to K2-18b any time soon. We
appreciate your time.
ASHER: Thank you. Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Thank you so much. This is just such an interesting -- yes. Quickly.
MADHUSUDHAN: No, no. I was just going to say in stuff that we should put all that money in building more JWSTs to do more such science.
GOLODRYGA: That is true as well.
ASHER: That is a good point.
GOLODRYGA: Good point.
ASHER: When he reaches out to you, you should let him know that.
GOLODRYGA: Yes.
ASHER: Nikku, thank you so much for being on the show.
MADHUSUDHAN: We need all the support we can provide to NASA.
GOLODRYGA: That is absolutely true. Thank you for the work that you're doing.
And we'll have more One World after the break. That was fun.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
