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One World with Zain Asher
Funeral For Pope Francis To Be Held Saturday; Hegseth Defiant, Accuses Fired Officials Of Leaking Info; Hegseth Under Scrutiny After Second Signal Group Chat Revealed; U.S. Secretary Of State Rubio Unveils Planned Cuts At State Department; Harvard Sues Trump Administration Over Funding Freeze; U.S. Stocks Rebound After Monday's Sharp Sell-Off; Pope held Nightly Calls With Gaza's Christian Community; A Wild Jaguar Takes her First Steps Into A New Future. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired April 22, 2025 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:00:10]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Live from New York. I'm Bianna Golodryga.
ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Zain Asher. We are watching -- you are rather watching ONE WORLD.
We begin this hour with a global outpouring of love for the man who was the spiritual leader of more than one billion Catholics around the world.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. A mass for Pope Francis is about to begin at St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York City.
Mayor Eric Adams is in attendance as well as members of the Interfaith Community. Cardinal Timothy Dolan, the Archbishop of New York, is leading
that Mass. And earlier, he spoke to CNN about the Holy Father's extraordinary kindness.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: I'm sure he was sitting next to him on the front porch, listening to your grandpa, sharing wisdom
because he's been through it all. And he's aware of God's design and God's will and wants to share that wisdom with us. That's what he was. And that's
-- I think that's going to be essential. We've got to keep that in the man who occupies the Chair of Peter next.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: The funeral Mass for Pope Francis will be held on Saturday in St. Peter's Square in Vatican City. You're actually about to see live pictures.
You are seeing live pictures there.
Right now, the cardinals are arranging funeral plans. And after that, there's going to be a big question looming over their heads. And that is,
who will fill the shoes of the fisherman taking up the responsibilities of the papacy, dating back to St. Peter, a fisherman himself, and the disciple
viewed as the first pope.
Let's go straight now to CNN's Christopher Lamb, joining us live now from Rome. So we know that the Pope's funeral, Christopher, is actually going to
be a much more modest event because essentially, he broke with some really long-standing Vatican traditions.
He wanted to really simplify the ritual. Take us through that.
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right. Pope Francis said he wanted to be remembered not as a powerful man of the world,
but as a shepherd and a disciple. And he has simplified the funeral and burial rites.
He has said that he wants to be laid out in a simple coffin, not on the crimson cushions that his predecessors were laid out on. He wants to be
buried in the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore, a Basilica about a 10- minute drive from St. Peter's, in a tomb which simply says Franciscus on it. He doesn't want it adorned with anything. He doesn't want any
inscriptions. And he's also covered the costs of that burial. It's a bit similar to him paying for his hotel room after he was elected pope.
The hallmarks of Francis are simplicity and humility. And even in death, he wants to emphasize those things. We are expecting Francis to be transferred
from the Casa Santa Marta, his residence to St. Peter's Basilica behind me tomorrow morning, where people will have their chance to say goodbye and
pay their respects to a hugely popular pope.
His death has led to an outpouring of emotion from people. So many tributes from around the world. Really, Francis was a people's pope who connected so
well with so many different people.
And, you know, I saw him for his last appearance here in St. Peter's on Easter Sunday. He was clearly struggling. He's clearly wasn't feeling well.
But he was determined to come out into the square for one last time and greet the crowds. And the reaction was electric. People really were so
delighted to see him for that one last time.
So service, humility, and simplicity with the hallmarks of Francis in life and also in death.
ASHER: Christopher Lamb, live for us there. Thank you so much.
[12:05:04]
All right. Some other stories we are following. The U.S. Defense Secretary is doubling down amid accusations of dysfunction and recklessness at the
highest levels of the Pentagon.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Pete Hegseth appeared to defend his reported use of the unsecured app Signal to discuss military plans in a group chat that
included his wife and brother. He said no classified information was shared.
Meanwhile, as calls grow for Hegseth to resign, he says the real blame lies with ousted disgruntled advisors who are now turning against him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: What was shared over Signal, then and now, however you characterize it, was informal, unclassified coordination.
In this point, those folks who were leaking, who have been pushed out of the building, are now attempting to leak and sabotage the president's
agenda and what we're doing. And that's unfortunate. It's not what I do. It's not how we operate. And so you've got another allegation being pushed
again, not based on how we're operating around here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: President Trump is still standing by the Defense Secretary, at least publicly, but cracks are certainly emerging here.
Don Bacon has become the first Republican lawmaker to openly question Hegseth fitness to leave the Pentagon.
GOLODRYGA: Let's bring in Stephen Collins and joining us now live from Washington with more analysis.
And, Stephen, this headline stood out to me from "The New York Times," really suggesting that the latest missteps, veneer of discipline in second
term falls away.
This is an administration that started out swinging with a number of, I think, record setting executive orders. You didn't see the president fire
his advisors and staff the way we saw in the first administration.
And yet now, misstep after misstep, both dealing with this WhatsApp chat groups. This is one that the Defense Secretary started his own separately.
And he remains defiant.
But what is this doing in terms of the reputation and stability of the second term for the president?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: Yes. Well, there's clearly a mess at the top of the Pentagon, which is worrying in itself, given the
building crises around the world that the administration is going to have to deal with.
I think you can look at this two ways. It's true that in the beginning, this administration was much better scripted than Trump's first term. The
rollout of a lot of those executive orders had clearly been planned. And the president seemed to know exactly what he wanted to do and had the staff
around him that he felt comfortable with.
What we're seeing is a symptom of the people that he's put into a lot of these offices, people who aren't traditionally qualified. There was a line
in "The Wall Street Journal" today that said, could you imagine Robert Gates, the former Bush and Obama Defense Secretary, sharing details of
military strikes on a Signal app? Of course, that would be absurd.
But I think, so conventionally, this administration looks like it is falling into disarray, as "The New York Times" said.
But to millions of Trump's supporters, the chaos and the disruption is exactly the point. They didn't necessarily vote for good governments. They
voted for someone to come to Washington to shake the place up, take aim at alternative sources of power, and to bring down what they see as the swampy
establishment.
So while, I think, for most Americans, things are going to start to look pretty rough. The economy's, you know, Trump almost seems like he's talking
the country into a recession. So the core people for whom Trump believes that he's ruling, I don't think it looks the same. So you can take your
pick, I think.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And reminder that there were some Republicans, obviously not the majority, but some like Mitch McConnell, who had warned against
Pete Hegseth leading the DOD, saying he is not prepared, he is not suitable for this type of job, but the responsibility that it carries. And here you
see an example really backing up that assessment.
Stephen Collinson, thank you so much.
ASHER: Thank you, Stephen.
All right. Let's take a little bit deeper into this. CNN military analyst, retired Air Force, Colonel Cedric Leighton, joins us live now from
Washington.
Colonel, I'm just going to start by reading the first line of Stephen Collinson piece for cnn.com. He wrote a great piece about this. And that
first line, he says, Pete Hegseth did not become defense secretary because he had the resume of a great statement.
Isn't that the truth, just in terms of why he was picked for this role? What does that mean in terms of the likelihood that Donald Trump is going
to stick by him? Stephen Collinson, essentially writes that Donald Trump expended a lot of political capital to get him confirmed. Remember all the
allegations surrounding him during that confirmation process.
Is Donald Trump going to stick by him through this? What are your thoughts on that, Colonel?
[12:10:00]
CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, Zain, I think the answer is guess, at least for now. And you're right, Stephen wrote a great piece.
The key thing here is that he was -- he, Hegseth was picked for a very different reason than what is normal. You can't imagine Gates or a Lloyd
Austin or a, you know, anybody, not anybody in the -- in the former -- in the category of being a former defense secretary, doing the kinds of things
that Hegseth does.
And it's very clear that Hegseth has been picked in order to basically be a showman, be the PR face of several military policies that the president
wants to realize.
These include things like dealing with diversity, equity and inclusion. They tend to be policies that are used, you know, basically in the
background of a functioning DOD.
But in Hegseth's case, he has, you know, basically no diplomatic experience. His military experience is basically that of a middle-level
officer, a major in the guard.
And that is different from being an active duty officer. He also has had no prior Pentagon assignment. So he does not really know the establishment,
doesn't care to know the establishment. But that's exactly what Trump wants.
And in this particular case, he is, in essence, doubling down on all these different factors. And while, you know, from a leadership standpoint, a
technical standpoint and a legal standpoint, Hegseth is absolutely in the wrong on these issues.
From a political standpoint, Trump will see him as somebody that he can, you know, not only continue to have in that position, at least for a while,
until it becomes untenable to them.
GOLODRYGA: But I can't imagine, Colonel, even as much as the president, at least for now, is supporting Pete Hegseth. I can't imagine that when he was
advocating for him at this role, he said, one of the things he will do, and I encourage him to do, is share classified war plans on an encrypted app
with his wife and his brother and his attorney.
Just talk about the ramifications of what he's accused of doing. This is the second sort of Signalgate or crisis that we've had. This one arguably
even more severe, because it wasn't people who were principals focused on one operation. It was family and friends.
Anybody else I would imagine of a lower rank would have been fired. But what are the consequences of this type of behavior?
LEIGHTON: Yes. So certainly for somebody beyond a lower rank, they would absolutely have been fired and potentially court marshalled. So it's a very
different outcome that we're seeing here, potentially at least for Pete Hegseth.
So what he did was he basically took classified information, and no matter what they say, any information relating to future military operations, be
they formerly war plans or not, anything that says that there's a specific time over target, you're using specific weapon systems, you're going after
a certain target at a certain time and you're targeting certain individuals, potentially all of that is classified. There is no other way
to describe it.
That's what the DOD guidelines say. That's what the Defense Intelligence Guidelines say. That's what the Guidelines from ODNI, the Office of the
Director of National Intelligence say. So those guidelines are designed to protect military operations as they are being conducted.
And what Hegseth did was he revealed those timelines before the operation occurred to people who were not authorized to see them.
And, you know, as far as we know, his spouse is not cleared for classified information. It's questionable whether some of the other people like his
brother and his attorney, his personal attorney who also happens to be working at the Pentagon, were cleared for it as well.
And even if they are cleared, question then becomes, do they have a need to know? And it's pretty clear to me that they do not have a need -- did not
have a need to know these kinds of operational details.
And that violates, not only the principles of classification, but it also violates the procedures that are put in place to safeguard the operations
as well as the people that are conducting them.
ASHER: So, Colonel, is this about ignorance? Like, you know, I'm sorry, I just didn't know. I didn't know that you're not supposed to share this type
of information with your brother and your spouse on Signal.
Or is it about, you know, I did know, and I know that, you know, I'm not really supposed to do this, but I just don't care. Which one do you think
it is here?
LEIGHTON: Well, I think it's the latter. I think saying it's, I don't care. And I'm in a position, you know, this is Hegseth's thought bubble above his
head, basically saying, I don't care. I am the Secretary of Defense and I'm going to do what I'm going to do because it's quick, it's efficient and it
gets -- you know, it gets the word out to people I want to have that knowledge.
[12:15:09]
All of these things are basically a long-headed approach. And I'm sure we can find tape of Hegseth talking about other people, such as Hillary
Clinton, who allegedly violated classification rules.
And, you know, at that time, he was, in essence, correct that those rules shouldn't have been violated. But what's good for the goose is good for the
gander, as they say. And in this particular case, he needs to follow the same kind of rules because the same kind of outrage that he talked about
back in those days is the kind of outrage that he's facing right now for really failing to follow procedures and failing to do what his subordinates
should do. And leadership by example is one of the keys to actually being a successful leader.
ASHER: All right. Colonel Cedric Leighton, thank you so much for that analysis. Appreciate it.
GOLODRYGA: Still to come for us, the feud between Harvard and the Trump administration continues. Why Harvard has now filed a lawsuit? That's next.
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GOLODRYGA: The Secretary of State is unveiling a massive reorganization of the U.S. State Department.
ASHER: Yes. In a social media post just hours ago, Marco Rubio says, the country is reversing decades of what he calls bloat and bureaucracy at the
department. Posting on X, Rubio says, quote, these sweeping changes will empower our talented diplomats to put America and Americans first.
Our CNN's Kylie Atwood joins us live now from the State Department.
So, Marco Rubio, essentially describing the State Department as bloated, bureaucratic, and really inefficient. What more do we know about these
plans?
KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. The Secretary of State, revealing what has been in the works for months here at
the State Department, this new proposed organization chart focusing only on the domestic staff here based in Washington, D.C.
And this new plan would eliminate 132 offices. That is from the more than 700 offices that the current State Department has. It would also get rid of
about 700 positions. That doesn't mean that 700 people are going to be let go.
According to an internal memo, the goal is for these undersecretaries to put forth a plan to leadership that would eliminate the actual number of
folks by 15 percent.
[12:20:01]
And this is a really quick timeline that the department is operating under. They say that there will be time for feedback from the undersecretaries who
are going to be implementing and coming up with the actual plans for how this is all going to work out.
But the under -- excuse me, the deputy secretary of state also said in a memo to the workforce that leadership is hoping to actually implement these
changes by July 1st, effectively two, two and a half months from now. So they're looking to do this extremely quickly.
One of the areas that this doesn't touch is U.S. embassies, U.S. consulates, the state department presents globally. That is something that
we expect that this department will focus in on and have another plan for. But this part of the plan is really just focused on the presence here in
Washington, D.C.
ASHER: All right. Kylie Atwood live for us there. Thank you so much.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Harvard is now suing the Trump administration over academic freedom and White House threats to cut billions of dollars in
federal funding to the university.
Now, earlier this month, Harvard publicly rejected a list of demands from the White House to change key policies, which Trump officials argue will
fight anti-Semitism.
ASHER: Harvard says it's committed to fighting anti-Semitism and accuses the administration of trying to gain leverage over the school.
GOLODRYGA: CNN's Matt Egan joins us now from New York. This continues to exacerbate, this back and forth between the White House and Harvard
University. What is Harvard now arguing in this lawsuit?
MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Bianna and Zain, this really sets the stage for an epic clash between America's oldest university and the president of
the United States. And Harvard is really making clear that they are not backing down to these demands.
The lawsuit essentially argues that this funding freeze, that this crackdown from the Trump administration is unconstitutional. And that is
really designed to coerce and control Harvard.
Now, let me read you a key line from this lawsuit where they argue that the government has ceased the flow of funds to Harvard as part of its pressure
campaign to force Harvard to submit to the government's control over its academic programs. That in itself violates Harvard's constitutional rights.
And Harvard goes on to argue that the government has not established a link between these anti-Semitism concerns and the decision to freeze funding on
scientific and medical research.
Now, just to remind you of how we got here, it was earlier this month that the Trump administration, the anti-Semitism task force, sent a letter to
Harvard making a series of demands, including having federal oversight over admissions and hiring.
Now, Harvard rejected those demands and the Trump administration froze more than $2 billion of funding. And now you have Harvard suing the Trump
administration. Last hour, famed Harvard professor Lawrence Tribe, he told CNN's Wolf Blitzer that he believes ultimately Harvard is going to win this
case.
And he said that other institutions feel compelled to go along with Harvard here, because what he describes as dictatorial demands, he said, they don't
work in the long run, because if you give in an inch, they're going to go ahead and take a mile.
Back to you.
ASHER: And just in terms of how the administration is responding. Just talk to us about that.
EGAN: Yes. Well, I mean, the White House is signaling that they're standing by their argument here. They put out a statement last night where they said
that the gravy train of federal assistance to institutions like Harvard, which enriched their grossly overpaid bureaucrats with tax dollars, from
struggling American families, is coming to an end.
They're essentially arguing that these taxpayer funds are a privilege. And they're arguing that Harvard has not met the standard to enjoy that
privilege.
However, I would note that Education Secretary, Linda McMahon, she was on CNBC earlier today. And she struck a more conciliatory tone. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA MCMAHON, U.S. EDUCATION SECRETARY: This letter that was sent to Harvard was a point of negotiation. We were talking about several different
points with them. Harvard released this letter to the media. This was a negotiation letter. It was really not a final offer of anything.
We had hoped Harvard would come back to the table to discuss these. We would like to have viewpoint diversity. We would like to have all of the
things that students that are going to universities have a right to expect. So this is a negotiation too.
We hope Harvard will come back to the table. We'd like to be able to move forward with them and with other universities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EGAN: So perhaps, there is a way to avoid a lengthy legal battle here, because it does sound like maybe there is room for a deal here.
CNN legal analyst Jennifer Rodgers, a former federal prosecutor, she said that she believes that Harvard has a very strong case here. And she thinks
that, ultimately, the two sides are going to work something out, because she doesn't believe that in the long run, the Trump administration really
has a legal leg to stand on.
[12:25:14]
Zain and Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Politically, they think this continues to be a winner for them. But as you note, legal scholars don't think that they have really
much chance for victory on that front.
Matt Egan, we'll continue to follow this story.
EGAN: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, activist Mahmoud Khalil's newborn son is spending his first days on Earth without his father, after U.S. immigration authorities
denied him a temporary release. His wife, Noor Abdalla, gave birth to their first child on Monday.
Khalil's lawyers requested a two-week furlough from immigration detention informing authorities that Khalil's wife had gone into labor a week earlier
than expected. They received a denial just 30 minutes later.
ASHER: Yes. Khalil's wife told CNN, she quote, "Will continue to fight every day for Mahmoud to come home to us. I know that when Mahmoud is
freed, he will show our son how to be brave, thoughtful and compassionate just like his father.'
All right. Still to come. Investors unnerved again this week, but U.S. indices are actually recovering some of our yesterday's losses.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ASHER: All right. Welcome back to ONE WORLD, I'm Zain Asher.
GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.
U.S. stocks are higher today after yesterday's sharp sell-off. The U.S. president, over the past several days, has been lashing out at the Federal
Reserve, calling Chair, Jerome Powell, a quote, major loser.
[12:30:07]
ASHER: Yes. Donald Trump's threats to fire the Fed chief are really just the latest injection of uncertainties into these markets.
But if you look at -- I mean, as Vanessa was saying, it's impossible to make sense of this. You see, if you look at that, it's pretty much almost
recovered from all of yesterday's losses.
GOLODRYGA: And based on no real kernel of information or development, so.
ASHER: Well, let's bring in CNN's chief data analyst, Harry Enten. What does that say, Harry?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: It's a rainbow.
ASHER: A rainbow. Sort of.
GOLODRYGA: I thought it was a rainbow connection. That's what I was guessing it was when I saw it in a preview commercial.
ASHER: So, Harry, just talk to us a bit more about if we do end up like -- let's just play worst-case scenario here. If we do end up with a recession,
we've seen obviously markets just dealing with so much volatility, bond market, the U.S. dollar weakened.
How about he's doing the sign language?
Just in terms of if there is a recession in this country, who is going to get blamed for do you think?
ENTEN: Yes. OK. So let's kind of go through all of the numbers here and then we'll chat a little bit on the other side.
And you're pointing out how the stock market up, down, all around. And, you know, I just think it's important to just sort of put it into context over
the entire course of the Trump presidency because on one day, you may be up, the next day you may be down, but overall, we're down.
So S&P -- the S&P 500 has dropped the most under Trump out of any president since the S&P 500 was created back in 1957.
Now at the beginning of the day, it was down 14 points, now, it's actually down 11 when you put it all together, down 11 percent, down 11 percent over
his presidency. And that's still the worst. That's still the worst.
The next closest was George W. Bush back in 2001. So, you know, look, Donald Trump is still on a planet completely separate from all the other
presidents.
But, of course, the key question is, what is the correlation between what happens down on Wall Street with what happens on Main Street? And what's
the chance of a recession? And it's still pretty gosh darn high. It's still pretty gosh darn high.
Look, JP Morgan, 60, Polymarket 57, 45, 45. Basically at this point, it's a 50/50 proposition that we will in fact enter a recession by the end of the
year or within the next 12 months.
But, Zain, you asked the key question. You see the stock market doing meh, really.
ASHER: I always do.
ENTEN: Yes. You always do ask the key question. That's why you're in the anchor chair and that's why I'm over here making a clown of myself.
But you asked the key question --
ASHER: Never.
ENTEN: -- the key question, which is, OK, who gets blamed if the recession actually happens? Well, we got the answer for you right here. The majority
of Americans will, in fact, blame Donald Trump if there is a recession within the next 12 months.
The key nugget here, 52 percent say he will get a lot or quite a bit of the blame compared to just 32 percent who say a little or not at all in terms
of the blame.
And let me just end on saying one thing. You know, you played the clip earlier, you mentioned, you know, Donald Trump going after Jerome Powell
calling him a loser. Neither of you two are losers. You are winners in my book.
ASHER: But, Harry, I don't understand how this goes back to a rainbow. Rainbow implies good news. What was the rainbow for? I'm like waiting for
you to weave it back.
GOLODRYGA: You still can have rainbows in a storm. All I'm saying is.
ASHER: Yes. What is the silver lining? Where's the rainbow?
ENTNE: The silver lining is that even if the economic news is bad, every single day I get to see you, and that is the silver lining the rainbow in
my life, despite my 401(k) going all the way goodbye.
ASHER: Did you just make that up? What was --
GOLODRYGA: That is why you get paid the big bucks, Harry.
ENTEN: Let me tell you, my mother raised the charm.
GOLODRYGA: For pulling that out of your pocket. Yes.
ENTEN: Pulling the -- pulling the -- pulling the -- pulling -- I'm like a magician. I'm a magician. I'm a magician. I pull it out. I pull it out like
I pull a $2 bill right out of my wallet. I am a magician. That's who I am.
ASHER: So, why did it say rainbow sorta? It read rainbow. Why sorta?
ENTEN: Because my handwriting is so bad and my rainbow drawing is so bad.
ASHER: Oh.
ENTEN: So it's sort of a rainbow.
ASHER: OK.
GOLODRYGA: Let's also talk about sorting that wallet. It looks kind of messy, the next time you come on, Harry.
ENTEN: This is the conversation for tomorrow if I'm on, which is --
GOLODRYGA: Oh, my goodness.
ASHER: Costanza, right?
ENTEN: It's a Costanza wallet. I got more meat here than you have at a Big Mac at McDonald's.
GOLODRYGA: Maybe $3,000. Carrying around.
ENTEN: I put this into the stock market. I could make the S&P 500 go up.
GOLODRYGA: Little nods at the Kristi Noem --
ASHER: maybe today.
GOLODRYGA: -- meme wallet still with $3,000 in it.
All right. Harry, thank you so much. We're expecting butterflies tomorrow.
ASHER: Thank you for boosting our self-confidence today.
ENTEN: Of course.
ASHER: I needed that actually.
ENTEN: More self-confidence boosting tomorrow. No doubt about it.
ASHER: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Butterflies, puppies and rainbows.
ASHER: I know (INAUDIBLE) 10 times.
ENTEN: I'll try better.
GOLODRYGA: Justin Wolfers is like, what am I listening to? We'll get to you in a moment, Justin. But, Harry, thank you.
[12:35:59]
Meanwhile, the International Monetary Fund is issuing a pessimistic prediction for the global economy. It says Trump's unpredictable tariff
policy as well as countermeasures by trading partners will likely deal a heavy blow across the world.
ASHER: The IMF says that worldwide economy will grow just 2.8 percent this year down from -- so hard to be serious after Harry. So you're just faking
me off so much. I'm going to be serious. OK.
Down from 3.3 percent last year and significantly below the historical average. The IMF predicts American prosperity won't be hit particularly
hard.
All right. Now time for The Exchange. Justin Wolfers is joining us now to dig into some of these latest videos.
Justin, you have to make us laugh just like Harry did. That's your job for the next five minutes.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Yes.
JUSTIN WOLFERS, PROFESSOR OR ECONOMICS AND PUBLIC POLICY, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: It's good to be with Harry, Isn't it?
GOLODRYGA: It's hard to. It's hard to with news as doomy and gloomy as all of this is, Justin. And again, a reminder that it's all self-inflicted.
What does it say to you? You know, Trump likes to say when it comes to foreign policy, when he's meeting with foreign leaders, in particular,
President Zelenskyy, saying, you don't have the cards. I have the cards. And that's the mantra he's been carrying here. I have all the cards. All
these countries are going to be coming to us. We're going to have some great deals to announce.
And I'm wondering if one of the reasons aside from this rally, from yesterday's massive sell-off one of the reasons you see headlines like
April is the worst month for the stock market since the Great Depression, is because we're not seeing tangible deals being made public from some of
these trading partners.
What does that tell you about who's actually holding these cards?
WOLFERS: Well, we actually saw a pretty good assessment of who's holding what cards today. The IMF just gave its latest update of its projections
for the world economy.
One of the things it showed is it marked down its forecast for the American economy and the Mexican economy more than for any other country.
So Trump's -- the headline there is Trump's trade war is hurting Americans more than it's hurting the Chinese, more than it's hurting the Europeans,
more than it's hurting anyone else.
So the logic of that, I think, is pretty straightforward, which is China is engaged in one trade war, a trade war with America. The United States,
we're engaged in trade wars, not just with China, but we have very high tariffs with every other country around the world right now.
So the next best option for the poor American consumer is still not very good. It's actually still pretty reasonable for the Chinese. So, yes, it's
not looking like things have gone well.
I do want to point one thing out. At some point in the next couple of weeks, they're going to front the press and say, hey, we've got a new trade
deal with blank. It'll be some country. Pretty good chance it'll be Australia, actually.
I'm going to say, look at this amazing trade deal we got with Australia. No tariffs with Australia. The thing I want your viewers to understand is, we
already had no tariffs with Australia. We had free trade agreement.
We had very close to no tariffs with Europe, with every other major trading partner, with very few exceptions. So he's going to try out and declare
victory for giving us back the economy that we had in the days before April 2.
ASHER: Yes. Just recently, we saw the Japanese meeting at the White House to hammer out a trade deal there. The South Koreans are coming to
Washington this week. JD Vance is, of course, in India trying to hammer out a trade deal there.
Their complaint against India is that the massive trade surplus that works in India's favor, so they say.
Just in terms of what's going to happen with the global economy. The global economy has already been through the ringer recently with the pandemic. And
it's still sort of scarred from that.
Do we anticipate a global reset? We talked a lot about recession in the United States and the odds are, it is likely if, you know, nothing's
reversed when it comes to these tariffs that there will be a recession in the United States.
What are we anticipating in terms of a global recession, Justin?
WOLFERS: Right. So I think they're importantly different questions. So right now, betting markets reckon it's about a 55, 60 percent chance the
U.S. economy goes into recession this year. Even if it doesn't go into recession, it will slow down. It'll cost hundreds of thousands of people
their jobs. And even if we don't give it the headline recession, for those families doing without its real pain.
The question of a global recession is in fact quite a different one. Because the world is more important to the United States than the United
States is to the world. We are in fact only 10 percent of global trade.
And so forward, for instance, the Aussie farmers who are looking for other places to sell their beef. They've got lots of other places to go. In fact,
I read a lovely article this week that said there's Texan barbecue restaurants in China.
They're going to stop buying Texan beef and start buying Australian beef. You can see why all of a sudden this form of a trade war is going to hurt
the United States a whole lot more than it's going to hurt other countries.
So I remain optimistic the rest of the world will stay out of recession. I'm pretty pessimistic about the United States.
GOLODRYGA: Longer term, your concerns about the lasting impact this has on the U.S. as sort of a bellwether as a safe haven. We continue to see a
weakening U.S. dollars, bond yields going up. I mean, everything moving in the wrong direction here, given past precedent when there were financial
crises.
[12:40:15]
What is the impact here, Justin?
WOLFERS: I think it's pretty negative, unfortunately.
Look, let me just try and say this in English. All of this talk about bond markets and currencies, that's just behind us pointing out something pretty
simple, which is historically when people wanted a mattress to hide their money and they thought that lending money to the U.S. government was in
fact safer than putting it under a mattress because, you know, your house might burn down.
But they no longer think that. And as a result, they're less willing to lend money to the U.S., they're less willing to buy U.S. dollars. That's
what's going on in bond markets and currency markets.
And you might say, well, the good news is Trump might reverse course. But he's revealed a fundamental fragility in the American economy, which is
that if we elect a leader, our political --who brings forward an economic program of destruction, our political institutions are not strong enough to
stop them.
Remember that we've seen this movie before in the U.K. They elected Liz Truss and she brought forward an economic program that was going to tank
their economy.
Well, Liz Truss was out faster than the head of lettuce went off. We've had Donald Trump do something even destructive. And if anything, he's tightened
his grip on power.
GOLODRYGA: Well, we have it on tape. We're going to have you back on as soon as that incredible trade deal with Australia will be announced in the
weeks to come.
Justin Wolfers, thank you. Good to see you.
ASHER: Thank you, Justin. Good to see you, my friend.
WOLFERS: Thank you.
ASHER: All right. A pontiff for peace. Just ahead, both Christians and Muslims in Gaza are mourning the passing of Pope Francis. A glimpse at the
Pope's influence in the war-torn region.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: We lost a man of peace. Many Palestinians are mourning the death of Pope Francis, who had long called for a ceasefire in Gaza.
ASHER: Yes. The Pope was in constant contact with the Gaza's community -- Christian community, rather, up until his death. And in his final Easter
address, he called for an end to the violence.
Here's our Jeremy Diamond with more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the last 18 months of his life, this was Pope Francis' nightly ritual, at 8:00 P.M., a
call to war-torn Gaza.
(SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
[12:45:14]
From the third day of the war until two days before his death, Pope Francis spoke nightly with the Holy Family Church, forging a special wartime bond
that priests and parishioners of Gaza's only Catholic Church won't ever forget.
GABRIEL ROMANELLI, PARISH PRIEST, HOLY FAMILY CHURCH: Daily, he called us and then to us -- to us for peace, to pray for peace and to give the
blessing for all guys and people and for all the Palestinians.
DIAMOND (voice-over): He spoke to us with a father's anxiety for his children, church leader George Anton recalled. He would reassure us,
checking if we had eaten, if we had something to drink, if we had medicine, how the children were feeling, how the mothers were coping.
The relationship drew the Pope closer to the plight of Gaza's civilian population and informed his outspoken criticism of Israel's attacks.
Yesterday, children were bombed, the Pope decried in December. This is cruelty, this is not war. I want to say this because it touched my heart.
The Pope also regularly called out rising anti-Semitism and demanded the release of Israeli hostages, including in his final address on Easter
Sunday, in which he called for a ceasefire one last time.
Inside Gaza's Holy Family Church, one of the many communities Pope Francis touched gathers to pray for his soul and for the world to see them as
Francis did.
My message to the world is to look at Gaza with the same eyes through which Pope Francis viewed it. Eyes of truth, justice, peace, love, eyes that saw
the people of Gaza as deserving of life with dignity, justice and independence.
From this small church in Gaza, a prayer against the scourge of indifference, which Pope Francis called the greatest sickness of our time.
Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ASHER: For Earth Day, we take you to South America, where conservationists are working to reintroduce the continent's top predator, the jaguar.
[12:50:02]
CNN's chief climate correspondent Bill Weir, accompanied Manny the jaguar on her release into the wilds of northeastern Argentina in the hopes of
reviving the lost population of big cats. And we get to watch a moment of years in the making.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: This beautiful big cat is a wild Jaguar. She's smaller than most so they call her Mini. And a vet just
sedated her ahead of a critical mission that could have a huge impact on her entire species.
WEIR: The first couple times you went through this process, it must have been exhilarating.
KRISTINE TOMPKINS, PRESIDENT AND CO-FOUNDER, TOMPKINS CONSERVATION: It's exhilarating still, but so many things can go wrong.
WEIR: So you're worried?
TOMPKINS: So I'm worried about everybody.
WEIR (voice-over): Mini is set to become the first wild born Jaguar to be relocated for the purposes of conservation.
WEIR: I saw you combing her hair like a mom.
TOMPKINS: Yes. It's a little like that. It's a little like that.
WEIR (voice-over): Kristine Tompkins used to be the CEO of the apparel brand, Patagonia. She is now an icon of species conservation and Earth
repair.
Along with her late husband Doug, founder of the North Face, the couple was so inspired by the success of the U.S. National Park System that they
wanted to replicate it in South America.
Fueled by a burning desire to protect the Patagonian wilderness from the ravages of cattle ranches and soy plantations, they purchased two million
acres in Chile and Argentina. But that didn't feel right. So they decided to give it all away in the largest private land donation in history.
TOMPKINS: Crazy though it may have seemed to them then. We were doing what we were saying.
WEIR (voice-over): That spurred investment from the governments of Chile and Argentina to create a much larger series of parks, but many of the
animals were already gone.
WEIR: Do you want to describe the passenger behind us, Kris?
TOMPKINS: Bill, you are sitting I'd say eight inches from the head of a wild female Jaguar who is awake.
WEIR: If everything goes according to plan and she hooks up with all these other Jaguars --
TOMPKINS: Yes, the males.
WEIR: -- in Chaco --
TOMPKINS: Yes.
WEIR: -- what a story she's going to have to tell them.
TOMPKINS: Yes. It's going to be a big talker.
WEIR: You're not going to believe what happened to me.
TOMPKINS: You won't believe what happened to me.
WEIR: OK, Mini the Jaguar.
TOMPKINS: OK, little Jaguar.
WEIR: We are here.
TOMPKINS: Mini.
WEIR (voice-over): Mini's new home is here, in El Impenetrable National Park.
It sits within the second largest continuous forest in South America called Gran Chaco, stemming from an indigenous word meaning, hunting land and hunt
they do.
Over centuries here, ranchers hunted the big cats until they were nowhere to be found.
But then in 2019, hope. A park ranger discovered the tracks of a solitary male Jaguar. And then a second one little later on. The only problem, no
females to mate with. Meaning these lone males might have been the last ones left.
WEIR: The stories around jaguars, is it changing? Is it -- do you still have ranchers who resent you for this?
TOMPKINS: Not in (INAUDIBLE) and not -- that was a big thing for us. We were so prepared. Remember it took us, I think, eight years to actually
release a jaguar.
WEIR: Because of the politics?
TOMPKINS: No. Just --
WEIR: Or just the logistics?
TOMPKINS: It took us so long to find jaguars. And how do you move jaguars? Nobody had ever moved jaguars.
WEIR (voice-over): After a bumpy and dusty ride through the Gran Chaco forest, Mini's finally set for the first stage of her release.
[12:55:02]
She spends five months in this enclosure adjusting to the drier forests of El Impenetrable. Now, with regulatory approval cleared, she's free.
But no pressure, Mini. If she successfully managed to mingle with one of those two males, the region's top cat could be back.
TOMPKINS: So many species were gone. And now, I can honestly say this, they're back. And they're thriving.
I mean, we're really proud of what we're doing. We're not going to stop it. But we need to be looking at a continental scale. This is the like the Hail
Mary Pass of conservation. And that's how I see it.
WEIR: Yes.
WEIR: And I'm 74. So I'm not going to see the end of this, but I'm happy about that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ASHER: Bill Weir reporting there.
All right. That does it for this hour of ONE WORLD. I'm Zain Asher.
GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. I'll be right back with "AMANPOUR" after a quick break. We broke that spell.
ASHER: Yes, we did.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:00:00]
END
