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One World with Zain Asher

Pope Francis Lying In State At St. Peter's Basilica; Trump Admin Signals U-Turn On China Tariffs; U.S. President Softens Tone On Powell, China Tariffs; London Talks Scaled Back As Rubio Skips Summit; Judge Extends Deportation Block Under Alien Enemies Act; U.S. FDA To Phase Out Petroleum-Based Food Dyes; Chinese Innovations On Full Display Amid Trade War. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired April 23, 2025 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:36]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Live from New York, I'm Bianna Golodryga.

ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Zain Asher. You are watching ONE WORLD.

Massive crowds are pouring into the world's largest church to pay their respects to Pope Francis.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. His body will lie in state at St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican until his funeral on Saturday.

Now Italy has declared five dates of national mourning for the 88-year-old pontiff who died on Monday.

Earlier, his coffin was carried into St. Peter's from the chapel attached to the modest guest house where he had lived.

After the funeral, cardinals will begin the process of choosing the Pope's successor in a secretive centuries-old tradition known as the Conclave.

ASHER: CNN's Christopher Lamb joins us live now from Rome. So, Christopher, people literally waited hours, three, four, five hours just to get into St.

Peter's Basilica. And then once they got inside, also waiting hours as well.

But what are people saying about what it feels like? What it felt like that moment of actually being able to say goodbye and bid farewell to such a

beloved Pope?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's really a very emotional and moving moment for people to pay their final respects to Pope

Francis. You can see the crowds behind me that are snaking around St. Peter's Square waiting to see Pope Francis.

Now I was able to see the Pope myself in the Casa Santa Marta chapel last night. I found that very emotional and moving. Of course, I spent a number

of years covering the Francis papacy. And it really was incredibly poignant to see him there for one last time.

I think the size of the crowds really reflects the love that so many people had for this Pope, hugely popular. They go connected with so many people,

not just Catholics, but those of other faiths and Christians of other denominations.

So we're seeing long crowds here. The Vatican put out a statement this afternoon saying that they are considering extending the opportunity for

people to pay their respects to Francis to beyond midnight. They were going to close the queue at midnight, but they're considering now extending it

beyond that.

It really is an extraordinary outpouring for Pope Francis such a loved and popular Pope.

ASHER: Christopher Lamb, live for us there. Thank you so much.

All right. In Washington, the U.S. Treasury Secretary is underscoring President Donald Trump's change in tone on his tariff war with China.

Speaking of short time ago, he said that the President's American first policy does not mean America alone and called on China to rebalance its

economy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT BESSENT, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: China's current economic model is built on exporting its way out of its economic troubles. It's an

unsustainable model that is not only harming China, but the entire world. China needs to change. The country knows it needs to change. Everyone knows

it needs to change. And we want to help it change because we need rebalancing too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Yesterday, President Trump said that the U.S. would not play hardball with China and that tariffs could come down substantially. He was

asked about those comments on the North Lawn just in the last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you clarify Mr. President on China? Were you thinking about lowering their tariffs.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes. We are to have a fair deal with China. It's going to be fair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you talking to them actively now?

TRUMP: Actively? Everything's active. Everybody wants to be a part of what we're doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: CNN senior political reporter, Stephen Collinson, is standing by in Washington for us. And, Stephen, "The Wall Street Journal" is reporting

that the U.S. could slash its tariffs on China by half. Even 50 or 60 percent though, when you look at where they are right now at 145 percent,

is still a historically high tariff against the number two economy in the world.

Just walk us through what you think has taken place over the last 24 hours within this administration and Trump's views on not only the tariffs, but

also the Fed Chair.

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes. It's whiplash time again, I think, with Trump's leadership.

I think on the China issue, two things are taking place. First of all, the president has been getting increasing warnings from CEOs, people in his own

administration about the real damage that the China tariffs are already doing.

[12:05:13]

We knew that there would be a period of days and weeks, and then we would see supply chain interruptions, shortages, potentially price hikes for

American consumers. And trade with tariffs at 145 percent trade is not a viable proposition. So that's on one side.

On the other side, you have the fact that China has shown no sign of bending to Trump's bullying. It has taken a much more long-term view. And

that looks like it's being validated, because essentially what's happening here is Trump appears to be climbing down.

There's not an awful lot of indication that real talks are going on between the U.S. and China. I think what we're seeing is the administration trying

to perhaps limit the damage, especially on the markets, and also to begin the process of climbing down really.

The art of the deal, in this case, certainly doesn't seem to have paid off. Perhaps there will be talks between the U.S. and China. I think what's

likely to happen is that we might see what took place in the first term of Trump, which was a fairly modest trade deal that didn't change the

underlying factors, but that Trump was able to trumpet as a huge advance and a great deal and to claim credit for something that in reality was a

lot less impressive.

ASHER: It's interesting, yes. Because Donald Trump isn't known for backing down, but obviously when it comes to equities and treasuries, when it comes

to any kind of panic in the market, it's different for him. That is when he does tend to cave, as we've seen.

So just in terms of how the Chinese have played this, just give us your take, Stephen, because obviously they retaliated right away, right? Tit-

for-tat, almost immediately.

But then they've, you know, had a wait-and-see approach. They've said, listen, we will happily fight back. We will fight with tooth and nail if we

have these tariffs imposed on us. But also on top of that, they've actually gone to other countries and said, listen, if you negotiate a trade deal

with the U.S. in such a way that it hurts Chinese interest, we're going to come after you too.

Just give us your take on how the Chinese have played this.

COLLINSON: I mean, my view is that the -- in the second time of the Trump administration, all of this is being driven by trade people, first and

foremost, and it's following Trump's instincts to create a splash, escalate tariffs, try to put the most extreme situation on the table to try and

force the other side into a deal.

But there's no one really involved in this in the administration who seems to have appreciated the forces playing on the Chinese leadership. The fact

that it would be impossible for Xi Jinping to simply get on the phone and climb down if he was being intimidated by Trump.

The whole rationale of Xi Jinping's time in office and China's emergence under his tutelage onto the world stage is that China is reclaiming its

lost influence. That it's setting itself up as an alternative power to the United States.

So politically, there was almost no chance that what Trump was doing would result in getting what he wants from China. And a lot of people who study

China believe that Xi is much more willing to subject his population to the cost of a trade war with the United States than would be possible for

Trump, not just in terms of, you know, real disruption on the markets, people's 401(k) pension plans crashing, but in terms of politically with

Republicans looking rather worriedly towards midterm elections next year.

So I think reality has reasserted itself. The problem, as you guys were saying, was that even if you have a tariff of 70 percent on a range of

Chinese goods, that's a massive tax increase for American consumers. And in itself it's probably likely to push the U.S. economy closer to a recession.

So although he's talking about doing a deal, if you're the Chinese, I would think that you would just wait and see if Trump capitulates further because

he showed not just in his dealings with China, but with those other tariffs, the reciprocal tariffs that he put on pause for 90 days, that he

doesn't seem to be ready to pay the price for the trade war that he ignited.

GOLODRYGA: The approach to trying to isolate China, however, is not novel to President Trump. Not only did he do it during his first administration,

it was a policy that was continued in President Biden, and even initially something that President Obama was more and more open to doing as well.

It's the tactics, though, Stephen, that I think have raised the question of America's standing, not only in its battle back and forth economically with

China as to who the winner is, but also among allies.

[12:10:00]

You know, President Biden was famous for trying to friendshore and to gain more alliances and to start and grow alliances in an effort to isolate

China more. Here, it seems like President Trump has not only abandoned allies, he's really upset them as well.

What are the ramifications here longer term, even if ultimately some trade deals are agreed to?

COLLINSON: Yes. Scott Bessent, the Treasury Secretary, started talking in the last couple of weeks about, well, maybe we should get together with the

allies and create a united front against China. That was after Trump had launched trade wars against the allies and had upset them in many other

ways in the first three months of his presidency.

There have long been attempts by the United States to use its allies as a bulwark against China. There was Transatlantic Trade Agreement that was

being proposed that Trump nixed in his first term. There was an Asian -- Pan-Asian trade agreement, Pacific agreement that Trump decided not to

pursue in his first term.

And, you know, the logic of using allies to help you win trade concessions would follow that the North American trade bloc, Canada, the United States

and Mexico, would be one way to try and modify China's behavior, yet, Trump has absolutely shattered relations with Canada, potentially, you know,

America's closest allies.

So I think what this all boils down to, across the board, not just in trade policy, but in Ukraine policy, Middle East policy, is that America is

expressed by the whims and the volatile nature of Donald Trump and his decisions are in the moment and are capricious.

And there's no way for allies or anybody else to really plan about that. So while policy looks like it's trending in one direction today, who knows

what will happen when we get a 2:00 A.M. post on Truth Social when Trump may completely reverse things.

So America is now currently a very volatile force in the world.

GOLODRYGA: All right. Stephen Collinson, thank you so much.

COLLINSON: Thanks.

GOLODRYGA Well, it feels like a relief rally in the U.S. markets this session after President Trump backed away from his threat to fire the chair

of the Federal Reserve.

ASHER: Yes. CNN understands that Trump softs the tone on Powell came after warnings from some of his advisers. They pointed to the potential for

significant turmoil in an already unnerved market.

Let's stay on this with CNN senior White House reporter, Kevin Liptak. So, essentially, Kevin, what you had is Donald Trump coming out and saying, oh,

I had no intention of firing Jerome Powell, even though we saw quite the opposite of that just last week.

It seems as though the only thing that can really get Donald Trump to sort of change his mind in reverse course is the markets, both equities and

treasuries, Kevin.

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes. And that has been the case when it comes to the tariffs, which he lowered, and it now seems to be

the case when it comes to his, you know, prospective firing of Jay Powell.

And, of course, he said yesterday that he had no plans and this was all something that the media had kind of stirred up. But he literally posted on

Truth Social last week that Powell's termination could cut -- not come soon enough. So I don't know how much clearer he could be.

And certainly the markets interpreted that as him trying to fire the chair of the Independent Central Bank, which obviously his advisers had warned

him would cause the kind of reaction that it did cause, which was market turmoil.

The other thing that they spoke to the president about was this prolonged legal battle, which no one in the White House seemed particularly confident

that they would prevail. And obviously the Trump administration is in court on all manner of issues, but this was one that the president didn't seem

like he was willing to fight it out on. And now you're seeing him say that he actually has no interest in firing Jay Powell.

But I don't think that necessarily means that this battle between the two men is over. Obviously, Powell has about a year left on his term. There's

no indication, at least for now, that he's planning to lower interest rates, which is what Donald Trump wants him to do in order, in his view, to

juice the economy.

And so I think you'll continue to see this back and forth, which, you know, even if it stops short of calling for Powell's removal is still going much

further than any president has gone before in encroaching on the independence of the Federal Reserve.

And even that, I think, can have some effect on the markets if, for example, investors no longer think that the Fed is independent, as it might

have been previously.

And so this will be something that will play out over time. This isn't necessarily the end of the road. But I do think that this is all part of,

you know, this internal campaign to try and show the president some of the real-world effects that his trade war and his rhetoric about Powell are

having. You know, those advisors are just one example.

[12:15:03]

The other example that we're learning about today is this meeting that the president held with retail CEOs on Monday, the executives of Walmart,

Lowe's, Home Depot, who all came in to warn the president that the trade war, particularly with China, was already having a disruptive effect on

their own supply chains and that it could potentially lead to empty shelves in these stores by the summer.

That certainly seemed to have rattled the president in some way because the next day, he's talking about potentially cutting the tariff rate on China

substantially.

And so you all see all of these factors sort of weighing in on the president, but I just think, you know, we've sort of been down this road

before. These are the people who spoke to the president last.

Obviously, there are still some people in this administration who are very hardline on trade, whether it's Peter Navarro or others. And so this is the

position that the president is staking out at the moment, but I don't know that this is sort of the final word on how all of this will proceed going

forward.

ASHER: Kevin Liptak, live for us. Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: And you can read more of Kevin's reporting about how Donald Trump's U-turns have prompted size of relief on Wall Street and beyond.

That can be found on cnn.com.

ASHER: All right. Now to the war in Ukraine. President Trump has just posted to social media that they are very close to a deal. He didn't

elaborate. Meantime, he talks in London, have been abruptly scaled back and the U.S. Vice President has issued an ultimatum to both Moscow and Kyiv.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JD VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians. And it's time for them to

either say yes or for the United States to walk away from this process.

We've engaged in an extraordinary amount of diplomacy of on-the-ground work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: JD Vance speaking there from India. As we learn, the U.S. Secretary of State won't attend planned London peace talks today. The State

Department cited what it calls logistical issues.

The U.K. says a meeting of lower-level officials is going ahead, however, special envoy Keith Kellogg is attending for the United States.

Alina Polyakova is the president and CEO of the Center for European Policy Analysis. She specializes in European politics, nationalism, and Russian

foreign policy. And she joins us now from Washington, D.C. Alina, good to see you again.

And as Zain noted, President Trump is weighing in now, saying not only that he thinks the war can come to an end soon, but once again taking his wife

at President Zelenskyy, saying that his statements against what the U.S., JD Vance, and others have suggested per reporting that the U.S. would

recognize the annexation of Crimea and other -- and other issues and demands from the United States in hopes of achieving a deal.

He said that those comments that President Zelenskyy pushed back on were very harmful to the peace negotiations with Russia, quote, Crimea was lost

years ago and is not even a point of discussion. What do you make of these comments and this proposal from the United States and President Zelenskyy's

defiance?

ALINA POLYAKOVA, PRESIDENT AND CEO, THE CENTER FOR EUROPEAN POLICY ANALYSIS: Well, what we know about the U.S. proposal is that it would

basically expect the Ukrainians to de facto accept surrender.

This is how the Ukrainians perceive it, which is why I think we were hearing some of the strong comments for President Zelensky for decades. The

United States never recognized the Soviet occupation, the Baltic States, for example, during the Cold War.

It's unclear why at this point there should be a different policy when it comes to Ukraine's Crimea. And I think beyond President Zelenskyy, it's not

just him that wouldn't accept such a deal. The Ukrainian people wouldn't accept it.

And so it's really hard to see a way forward when the deal that's been presented to Ukraine is completely unacceptable for, I think, any Ukrainian

and certainly for the Ukrainian government.

ASHER: Alina, how would the Russians like this war to end?

POLYAKOVA: Well, the Russians have been actually quite clear about what they're looking for. And we see a lot of those demands in the U.S.

proposal. They de facto want control of Ukraine's future. They do not want Ukraine to be able to make decisions about E.U. membership, NATO

membership, the kinds of defense agreements. They may want to strike bilaterally as well.

The Russians have always seek -- sought political control of Ukraine as a whole. They would like to have a Russian control government in Kyiv instead

of President Zelenskyy or a democratic leader.

So this is complete capitulation is what the Russians are looking for. And unfortunately, some of the demands that we've seen on the table, Ukraine

not joining NATO, Russia remaining as the controlling power and being recognized as such, not just in Crimea, but the almost 20 percent of

overall Ukrainian territory.

The currently controls in eastern Ukraine would allow the Russian side to de facto, have complete control over Ukraine's future.

[12:20:07]

And again, that is the destruction of Ukraine as a democracy, as a sovereign state, and a complete affront to Ukraine's constitution.

GOLODRYGA: Alina, is there any more clarity as to what these threats from both now the Secretary of State and the Vice President mean when they say

that if the deal isn't reached soon, that the U.S. is role in trying to mediate an end to this war will end?

Does that mean that the U.S. will sort of take a backseat and continue, though, to supply intelligence and military aid to Ukraine as perhaps

Europe steps up to oversee any sort of peace talks? Or does that suggest that all aid could also be cut as well?

POLYAKOVA: Well, unfortunately, there's not much detail on the broad comments we've heard from the Vice President and also Secretary of State

and the President himself that there's growing frustration in the White House and in the administration about how slowly these talks are

progressing.

To my mind, this has been the Russian strategy all along to seek to draw this out, to slow walk it, hoping that the U.S. will get frustrated and

just give up.

And so if the U.S. proceeds and does that, whatever that looks like in the long term, the Russians will absolutely see this as a big win and a free

hand to continue their assault on Ukraine and likely beyond.

What that would mean for Europe, I think, is the big question. The United States has made it very clear that our expectation, the administration's

expectation, is that Europe should take on the bulk of the security, military, and economic burden of supporting Ukraine.

And so far, the U.S. has tried the diplomatic route, but I think if the U.S. exits, what that will likely mean is that Europe will have to take

over.

The one last point I would make here is in terms of continued potential security assistance to Ukraine. Well, here, the U.S. Congress has an

important role to play. It is the U.S. Congress that passed all of the supplemental payments in support for Ukraine since Russia's full-scale

invasion.

And it would be very valuable right now at this very delicate moment for diplomacy and the conflict to hear from members of Congress as to what they

think about this proposal.

GOLODRYGA: Well, we know how difficult and how long the last tranche of aid finally took to get passed by Congress months and months and months at the

expense of many on the battlefield.

In the meantime, Alina Polyakova, thank you so much.

ASHER: Thank you so much.

All right. They're called a toxic soup of chemicals. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration is pushing to phase out certain dyes. Coming up, what lies

ahead for America's junk food.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:25:24]

GOLODRYGA: Federal judges in the U.S. are demanding answers from the Trump administration. And so far, they don't like what they're hearing.

ASHER: The judge overseeing the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the man, mistakenly deported to El Salvador last month, issued a scathing eight-page

order on Tuesday slamming the administration for repeated stonewalling. And she warned, quote, that ends now.

GOLODRYGA: In New York, a different judge blasted the U.S. President's reliance on the Alien Enemies Act to deport alleged gang members without

due process to the same notorious prison in El Salvador.

He said some people are being thrown out of the country because they have tattoos comparing to crack down to a medieval inquisition.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is joining us live now from Washington. So, Katelyn, what is the Trump administration saying in response to this?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, in the court in Maryland where the Abrego Garcia case, where they're supposed to be

providing updates on a daily basis, they've taken everything confidential so we can't actually see what they're arguing in court right now.

As of yesterday, they've gone under the veil of the seal of the court. But what they have said, so far, is they don't want to give information. They

don't want to provide information to Abrego Garcia's lawyers about the specifics that they would have, the facts, the evidence related to things

like why they believe he's MS-13. Who has custody of him while he is in El Salvador? Is it just the Salvadoran government or does the U.S. also have a

role to play some control there since they're the ones making the deal with this Salvadoran prison to keep detainees like Abrego Garcia.

And what have they done for his release? That's been a question the judges asked over and over again.

This is why the judge is getting frustrated here. Judge Paula Xinis keeps asking for answers and the administration keeps saying, no, we're not

giving you them for different reasons.

One of the other things they're arguing is that there's privileges here. Attorney-client privilege. There are state secrets that they want to

protect related to Abrego Garcia. And so that's where the judge is stepping in as of yesterday and saying, you can't seek refuge behind these vague

reasons. You have to give more legal basis there and you have to start answering some of these questions.

So that case is very tense. We're waiting to see exactly what happens next. But like I said, many things here are beginning to be under seal. So we're

not actually getting that much more information. There could be a hearing coming up though that is something that Abrego Garcia's lawyers are asking

for before the judge.

In that other case, there just was a hearing in the Southern District of New York about Venezuelan migrants being removed or that the administration

wanted to remove them to El Salvador.

And just to highlight one of the other things the Justice Department is saying, they argued to the judge in that that they believe the Alien

Enemies Act is the sort of thing that is quite popular for Donald Trump, that it is a popular policy and it's a sort of policy he was elected on.

The judge then responded, we're not talking about popularity here. This is about due process for immigrants in detention, whether they get hearings

before they're removed from the United States.

ASHER: All right. Katelyn Polantz, live for us. Thank you so much.

All right. Candy, cereals, and drinks may soon actually look a lot different here in the U.S. The Food and Drug Administration says it will

phase out petroleum-based food dyes.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. These dyes are used to give food and drinks brighter colors and make them look more appealing. The FDA says it plans to authorize new

natural color additives in the coming weeks.

Our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, these petroleum-based dyes are exactly what they sound like. They are dyes,

typically of colors that you're not going to find in nature, and they're based in petroleum, which is a really stable chemical.

So that allows these colors to stay very stable over time, which is what the food industry wanted out of these.

Some of these you'll probably recognize, you know, so this is red dye three. That is not a normal color you'd see in nature. Or this is red dye

number 40, which is another dye, again, based in petroleum. So that is really what the concern is here.

What we've known is that when it came to red dye three, even 30 years ago, there was a correlation between that dye and certain cancers in animals.

And that has been sort of a concern for a long time, three decades.

It just got banned under the previous administration, and now obviously the sites are set on these other dyes as well.

There's a concern, as I mentioned, about cancer in animals. There's a concern that there may be carcinogens. There's also a concern that they may

lead to these behavioral problems when it comes to children who have been eating these types of dyes for most of their lives, whereas if you're an

adult, many of these dyes weren't present in your diet before that.

[12:30:18]

So we don't know the specific links. When you have something that's as ubiquitous as these dyes out there, it's hard to really know is it the dye

or is it something else in the environment? Is it social media? Is it phones that are causing some of these problems? But there is enough of a

concern.

And there's also something known as the precautionary principle. We're not sure. Let's just be cautious.

This cereal, for example, is a good example of that. Many dyes in here, as you can see from the brightly colored Fruit Loops. The concern, though, is

that in many countries around the world, such as Europe -- in Europe and Canada, they make these same products without those petroleum-based dyes.

They use natural food coloring. So watermelon juice, carrot juice, blueberry juice to create some of that coloring. May not be as vibrant. May

not be as stable. But that's what they do. Sort of using this precautionary principle.

That is, I think, what we're going to see in the United States as well. A phasing out and eventually eliminating of nine of these petroleum-based

dyes in the months and years to come.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ASHER: All right. Still to come, big find for big tech, why the EU is targeting the likes of Apple and Meta over the issue of competition.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:35:15]

ASHER: All right. Welcome back to ONE WORLD. I'm Zain Asher.

GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.

The body of Pope Francis is lying in state at St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican, where it will remain for three days until his funeral on Saturday

morning. A constant stream of mourners continues to pass through the Basilica to pay respects to the pontiff who died on Monday of a stroke and

heart failure.

ASHER: The Italian government has declared five days of national morning ending on Saturday.

Time now for The Exchange. Joining us live now from Rome is the editor of Our Sunday Visitor Magazine, Father Patrick Mary Briscoe. Father, thank you

so much for being with us.

When I think about this particular pope, I see him as a disruptor, quite frankly, somebody who is really willing to challenge status quo within the

Vatican, but also who was incredibly humble.

I mean, he was essentially the personification of humility. For someone like you who is part of the church establishment, what did this pope mean

to you, Father?

PATRICK MARY BRISCOE, EDITOR, OUR SUNDAY VISITOR MAGAZINE: Hello, friends. It's such a pleasure to be with you as we honor and celebrate Pope Francis'

life and discuss his legacy.

I mean, in many ways, you're right to say he made so many lasting contributions. And it's no small part -- no small part of that contribution

was due to his personal character and the personal stamp that he's left on the papacy.

Even in death, Pope Francis continues to give us surprises and firsts, today's transfer of his body from Casas Santa Marta was, of course, a

historic first because it was, after all, life in Casa Santa Marta that was a first for Pope Francis who did not live in the apostolic palace. So that

transfer today of his body was a historic first.

And then in St. Peter's Basilica, the Holy Father is lying in state in a simple wooden casket. He's changed according to his last wishes, how the --

how the casket would be crafted. And rather than lying on an elaborate catapult, he's instead there in his simple coffin.

These gestures, I think, it's important to understand are not just signs or symbols, they're communicating something very deep about who Pope Francis

was and about his vision for the papacy.

He wanted to be a Pope who would be close to the people, perceived as a Pope who was close to the people. And I think that's going to have a

lasting impact, certainly in these coming days. On the square today, you were beginning to feel that in the crowds of mourners.

GOLODRYGA: Father, how do all of these firsts and revisiting and really acknowledging Pope Francis' legacy? How does this all factor in as the

cardinals now begin to conclave in days to come to decide and ultimately vote on his successor?

BRISCOE: Well, it's certainly the question because among their discussions, I have no doubt that they'll be evaluating Pope Francis' approach. And as

they seek to gather, as they seek in prayers, they begin to discuss who could be a successor or Pope Francis.

They'll have to determine whether or not they appreciated Pope Francis' approach to the papacy. Some cardinals are saying, Cardinal Dolan, for

example, that he's looking for the successor of Pope Francis to be someone who brings a kind of clarity and governs with more serenity. And that's

certainly something you're hearing from other cardinals, but there are plenty who have appreciated Pope Francis' spontaneous style.

And it will be -- it will be very interesting to see whether or not that was really an approach to the papacy that will last or whether it was

something special in particular to the man who was Jorge Bergoglio, who was Pope Francis.

ASHER: You know, what's interesting is that, you know, Bianna and I have talked a lot about just some of the sort of more sort of common touches

that he brought to the papacy, whether it's, you know, saying, I'm not going to live in the papal apartments or I'm going to ride the bus or just

how he was with children and, of course, those with disabilities and how he welcomed in people who, LGBTQ, for example. I mean, he -- there are so many

areas in which this Pope really did challenge the status quo.

I am curious about how he was perceived within the Vatican, because there were some things that he did that, I believe, among Vatican employees would

have been considered very controversial, for example, canceling certain bonuses among Vatican employees or challenging the level or his perceived

level of corruption within the Vatican Bank, for example.

So just talk to us about the perception that others had of him within the Vatican.

BRISCOE: Absolutely. You've touched on one of the greatest challenges that Pope Francis' successor will have to face, which is continuing the

Vatican's financial reform. It's no secret that the Holy See's finances are in, well, frankly, a bit of disarray. That the next pontiff will have to

continue to mount this campaign of further transparency and certainly continuing to initiate some of those best practices.

[12:40:14]

Also, Pope Francis' successor will have to continue to address the global clerical sexual abuse crisis. These two -- these two crises, the financial

crisis, the sexual abuse crisis, these are two crises that are -- that have not been resolved by Pope Francis that will certainly need to be addressed

by the coming pontiff.

ASHER: All right, Father Patrick Mary Briscoe, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

GOLODRYGA: Well, in a landmark decision, the E.U. is imposing a fine of almost $800 million on tech giants, Apple and Meta. It is the first time

the bloc's digital competition law is being enforced.

A yearlong investigation found that Meta didn't offer users' versions of its platforms that process less of their personal data without them having

to pay a fee.

ASHER: The E.U. also found Apple didn't alert customers to offers outside its own app store. The tech brands are clapping back with Meta likening the

fine to a tariff. And Apple calling it, quote, yet another example of the E.U. targeting the brand.

And on the subject of tariffs, with the global car industry facing steep duties on exports to the U.S., the Chinese auto market is coming into new

focus.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. China's booming electric vehicle sector has been on full display at the country's largest auto show in Shanghai. And now it looks

like Beijing has its sights on luxury sports cars.

Marc Stewart is at the show with more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARC STEWART. CNN CORRESPONDENT: When we look at this US-China trade war, technology is a big part of it. We're on the ground here in Shanghai at the

largest auto show in China.

It's a chance for Chinese companies, of course, to show off their innovations, but it's also a chance for China to show that it's a force and

it doesn't need the U.S. to thrive.

The unveiling of this blue car here is one of the most anticipated events of the entire show. It's from Chinese auto giant BYD and its Denza Brand.

Its first concept sports car.

As you can see, it's very aerodynamic. It's got a spoiler on the back. This is a big deal because BYD is really a fierce competitor to Tesla.

This isn't just what style these cars have a potential for speed. This is the 7 GT from the brand Zeekr. It can go from zero to around 60 in just

about three seconds.

This car is attention getting, not just for its bright color, but for its connectivity. It's from a company called Xiaomi. It's a phone company. A

lot of people have their phones. One feature is that you can control some of the different appliances from your car from this very panel in front.

Because of tariffs, Chinese car makers are locked out of the American market. But they're firmly planted in China, which is the world's largest

automobile market. They've also been expanding to places like Europe and to Africa, showing that they don't have to have American buyers to be

successful.

Marc Stewart, CNN, Shanghai.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: After the break, we go back to where it all began. CNN visits the hometown of Pope Francis to hear how longtime friends are remembering

the late pontiff.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:45:00]

ASHER: All right. In Nigeria, food insecurities on the rise. A growing population means more mouths to feed and climate change has made that more

difficult.

In today's Inside Africa, CNN visits the country southwest for a closer look at how farmers are improving productivity. They're abandoning fossil

fuels in favor of cleaner and more plentiful source of energy, the Sun.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After three years of dealing with erratic rainfall, rising petrol costs and temperatures as high as 47 degrees Celsius, Opeyemi

Wasiu Ajibola introduced solar power to support his farm's irrigation system, turning the baking sun to his advantage.

OPEYEMI WASIU AJIBOLA, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, AGRICWAS FARM AND AGRO- BUSINESS CONSULTANCY: Each panel is 300 watts. We have each panel, so that's 2,400 watts. And that is the amount of wattage that can carry my

submersible pump to pump water.

By 7:00 A.M. in the morning, my solar pump is already working.

We can sell our water that come close to 30 to 40 to 50 liters of water in a day. It has reduced depending on (INAUDIBLE) and save me a lot of costs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The solar powered watering system has resulted in more farmable land, meaning, Ajibola can make the most of his three hectare

plot.

Like the sun, the pumps are reliable, providing an eco-friendly alternative to fuel powered methods.

For Nigeria where solar power is fast becoming a preferred and reliable energy source, the challenge for farmers remains, finding the finances to

acquire the kit.

AJIBOLA: You know there are some (INAUDIBLE) I've condemned that maybe that's lost its facilitation and the like. I don't know that it is water

because I did not give enough water to that particular plant that is why I kept seeing that same failure every time.

So when I have the solar irrigation system and I apply it and I change the duration which I irrigate my farm, I realize that my heat has increased

maximum.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ajibola grows a variety of vegetables, sweet corn tomatoes cabbage and palm trees. They all need adequate and well-timed

watering which he, along with other farmers embracing this technology can now do year-round.

AJIBOLA: The solar irrigation helped me to be able to plant at the appropriate time that will make me run a profitable business.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:50:14]

ASHER: All right. Pope Francis' native Argentina has ordered seven days of mourning following the pontiff's passing.

GOLODRYGA: And CNN's David Culver is there, touring through the Pope's childhood neighborhood and speaking to some of his long-time friends.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Even before he passed away, Pope Francis was memorialized here in his hometown, specifically in

Flores, the neighborhood in Buenos Aires that he was raised.

You can see tributes once again. We see this all over. Flowers left outside his childhood home. And they've even got the plaque.

This is the house where Pope Francis lived.

This is where Pope Francis went to elementary school, and it's still a school. We've got students who are leaving for the day.

Pope Francis' friendships from even secondary school onward, some 75-plus years ago, lasted for decades. And today, we actually met up with one of

his friends, Oscar Crespo.

He says he remembers a moment where they were in religion class, and the instructor said those who have not had your first communion please stand.

And there were two people who stood up, it was Oscar and another individual. And it was offered up that one of the other classmates would

take them to have their first communion, and that person was Jorge Bergoglio.

Pope Francis' legacy stretches across this community. And even imprinted on the ground.

In just a few blocks from his childhood home, the church he went to as a kid and a teenager. This is the Basilica de San Jose de Flores, but it's

what happened inside that really stands out.

As inside this confessional on September 21st, 1953, Jorge Mario Bergoglio, had the call from God to become a priest.

And now that confessional has become a pilgrimage site of sorts. Throughout the day, people coming in to leave flowers, candles, to offer prayers, just

remember.

But it's not just Catholics or even Christians mourning the loss.

OMAR ABBOUD, FRIEND OF POPE FRANCIS: To start with this.

CULVER: Omar Abboud, a Muslim, worked alongside then Cardinal Bergoglio, and a Jewish counterpart to create the Interreligious Dialogue Institute.

For more than 25 years, they built a deep friendship.

When was the last time you spoke with him?

ABBOUD: This year, January 23.

CULVER: So, what did you talk about?

ABBOUD: Many times. A.I.

CULVER: A.I.?

ABBOUD: Yes.

CULVER: Artificial intelligence?

Omar has been reluctant to do interviews since the Pope's passing.

Omar, it's not -- it's not lost on me that the world has lost a Pope, but you lost a friend.

ABBOUD: He used to be a good friend. And boy, we would need him really, really. (INAUDIBLE) If you want, then we have to stop.

CULVER: Yes.

ABBOUD: Please.

CULVER: So it might sound abrupt there as Omar was any of the interview, but it wasn't personal. For him, it was a battling of the emotions that

were surfacing, and they were doing that several times throughout our conversation with him.

[12:55:03]

And because as the world is mourning the loss of the pontiff, for him, it's a dear friend. And so he didn't want to make the focus about him. Instead,

he wanted to keep it focused on the Holy Father.

And for that reason, he needed to step aside before he realized the emotions were surfacing too strongly.

I asked him if he was going to be able to go to the funeral. He said he, he, a local rabbi and another Catholic priest, planned to travel to Rome.

But they'll simply go and personally pay their respects to the St. Peter's and then leave before the funeral starts.

For them it's the best way to privately remember their friend.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Kind of powerful moment there. I'm so glad that David Culver brought us that piece and that look inside his friendship with others.

Well, that does it for ONE WORLD. I'm Bianna Golodryga.

ASHER: I'm Zain Asher. Appreciate you watching. "AMANPOUR" is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END