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One World with Zain Asher
South African President To Meet With Trump At The White House; Trump Defends His Immigration Policies; Ramaphosa: We're here To Reset The U.S. Relationship; Trump And Ramaphosa Address White Genocide Claims; Trump Makes; Aired 12-1p ET
Aired May 21, 2025 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:00]
ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: Of course the treatment of white South Africans. Trump says that they're being persecuted and he's claimed that proof that
there's a genocide happening against white South Africans, which again, there's no evidence of that. And the South African government is strongly
denying those claims.
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. And hanging over that, South Africa needs this to go quite well because the U.S. is South Africa's second
largest trading partner. And President Trump has suspended aid to the country.
Now, during today's visit, Reuters reports that Ramaphosa may cut a deal to allow Elon Musk's Starlink to operate in South Africa. Ramaphosa has also
brought some famous South African golfers on this visit, perhaps hoping to appeal to one of the president's favorite sports.
ASHER: We are covering this important meeting from a lot of different angles. We've got CNN's Larry Madowo joining us live now from Nairobi.
We've got Kevin Liptak at the White House.
Kevin, this time, let's start with you. So the fact that Elon Musk is going to be in this meeting, I mean, how much does that complicate things for the
South African president here?
KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, it could be a -- a major complication. Musk has been, in a lot of ways, the driving force
behind President Trump's resentments towards South Africa when it comes to all of these laws that are meant to sort of correct some of the historic
wrongs from the apartheid era.
And you have heard Musk and Trump rail against Ramaphosa and the South African leadership for laws that they claim are -- are racist. And so in a
lot of ways, Musk's presence in the Oval Office for these talks could sort of lend some credence when Trump inevitably raises his concerns about some
of these statutes with his counterpart there inside the Oval Office.
And so I think it will be, I think, on Ramaphosa to try and come up with a response. And certainly he will have been thinking about this for quite
some time because I think, you know, when you listen to President Trump talk about some of these concerns, it's clear that he will raise them
directly in the Oval Office.
And we're told by White House officials that the president plans to ask Ramaphosa to roll back some of these laws as part of this meeting today.
And so how he responds, I think, will be very critical.
And a lot of ways, the hope is that he will avoid the kind of dressing down that, for example, Volodymyr Zelenskyy experienced in the Oval Office back
in February. And a lot of ways he has become something of a cautionary tale for every world leader that comes through the White House that has these
irritants with the Trump administration.
And so he is, I think, walking something of a tightrope here. And you mentioned those golfers that the president will be sitting next to in the
Oval Office. They're part of the South African delegation.
One of them is Ernie Els, who actually lives in South Florida. He has golfed with President Trump many times. And it seems as if the hope is that
by having someone in the Oval Office who the president knows, something of a friendly face, but also an example of a White South African who was able
to thrive in post-apartheid South Africa, despite some of these laws that the president and Elon Musk claim are racist, that Ramaphosa will be able
to talk the president sort of down from these claims that he has been making over the last several months about the government there.
And so this will be, I think, a critical meeting. It's running a little bit behind about a half-hour late at this point. But certainly, in an important
moment for the president and Ramaphosa to try and talk through some of the issues, and hopefully, at least from the perspective of the South Africans,
try and mend what has become quite a contentious relationship.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, no doubt. And, Larry, to you now, just walk us through what's at stake for Ramaphosa going into this meeting. Obviously, you have
an agenda where not only does he have to push back at some of these unproven and, at times, false claims, but at the same time, this is a very
important relationship for South Africa. The United States is the second largest trading partner.
We also have a lot of internal discord within South Africa economically as well. And you had the president's tariffs, which had been quite enormous,
levied against South Africa, until they were all frozen for 90 days.
Here you see Ramaphosa's car pull up there as he is set to shake hands with President Trump.
And, Larry, as we're watching these images, just talk to us about what really is at stake here for South Africa.
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: President Cyril Ramaphosa has to make sure this goes well, that it does not go the Zelenskyy way, where he gets -- end
-- ends up getting dressed down by President Trump and Vice President JD Vance.
[12:05:00]
And the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State, Christopher Landau, who's the one that welcomed these white African refugees when they arrived in the
United States. He's also attending this meeting, Marco Rubio is not.
And so President Ramaphosa is hoping for a trade deal with the United States as South Africa's second largest trading partner. They need this
deal so that they're not subject to these high tariffs. It was 30 percent before it was suspended.
He also has to deal with the presence of Elon Musk, who was born in South Africa. Should be in the South African side, but is on the American side
here.
President Ramaphosa has brought a billionaire of his own, Johann Rupert. He also helped -- helped organize this meeting. He is the luxury goods magnate
behind brands like Cartier. And so he's got a few successful white South Africans like Kevin was talking about, that he can show that in the post-
apartheid rainbow nation.
He learned under the feat of Nelson Mandela, as President Ramaphosa told me last week, and he has to make that happen and get this deal out, clarify
some positions with the United States and President Donald Trump and not antagonizing too much so that this comes off as a positive win-win and not
far to deteriorate in this relationship that's right now very deeply strained.
And that's why he asked for this meeting. He spoke with President Donald Trump recently at 4:00 A.M., South African time. He told me he explained to
him what was happening with this case of what genocide that President Trump insists on. And he told him that's nothing like that happening here.
We are a rainbow nation. We accept everyone. In fact, President Ramaphosa told me, he told President Donald Trump that we are the only country that
continent where the colonizers came to stay and we've never driven them out. And they are living well. We live among all of them.
And it's important to note that, for instance, we spoke to Afri -- AfriForum yesterday. They're a white African and lobby group. They're
considered a white nationalist organization by the Southern Poverty Law Center. And even they could not explicitly say that there's a white
genocide in South Africa.
We looked into the numbers, out of 36 farmers between April and December 2024, there were only seven farmers who were affected by that. So it's a
very low number, but it's become a major issue on the right, on the MAGA right, because of figures like Elon Musk who said yesterday that he cannot
get a license to operate in South Africa because he's black, something that the South African government has denied again and again and again.
And as you mentioned, they're now working to find a worker on for him so that he can skirt this requirement that any companies that operate in South
Africa must have at least 30 percent black ownership because of a legacy of apartheid.
GOLODRYGA: It's so fascinating the role of Elon Musk here, Larry. Thank you so much. But it -- it really is fascinating his role, given that he has
said he's going to be taking a step back from his role in Washington, obviously with DOGE coming to an end. But still, for this meeting, he is
front and center.
ASHER: Yes. And you think about the fact that South Africa is now providing a workaround for Starlink to operate there. Probably just to sort of ease
the relationship between Ramaphosa and -- and President Trump.
William Gumede is the founder of Democracy Works Foundation, a South African nonprofit dedicated to building and supporting democracies in the
region. He's also a best-selling author, and he's joining us live now from Johannesburg.
William always, always good to have you on the program. I'm sure that this meeting between Cyril Ramaphosa and President Trump is what is being talked
about right now across South African media.
You know, as the issue of race inevitably comes up, probably within the first five, seven minutes of the conversation, the historical context of
South Africa as a nation is also going to be front and center as Ramaphosa explains perhaps some of the, you know, expropriation laws that may be
President Trump and JD Vance and Elon Musk will ask about.
You -- you know, we've talked about this a number of times, just in the past hour or so. Just the fact that, you know, apartheid only ended in
1994. I mean, this is a country where black land owners were forcibly displaced from their land, and that land, during apartheid, was given to
white South Africans. And so, you have a situation where by Ramaphosa has felt the need to address that.
Just walk us through, just the sensitivity, though. You've got Elon Musk in this meeting as well. There's just such a delicate balance as he pushes
back on some of these claims that there is no evidence for, but having to do it in a way that doesn't offend President Trump. I mean, he's not in an
enviable situation.
WILLIAM GUMEDE, FOUNDER, DEMOCRACY WORKS FOUNDATION: Good evening. And thank you for having me. And it's a -- you know, this is going to be a
delicate negotiations because, you know, on the one hand, President Ramaphosa cannot allow the meeting to turn into Zelenskyy kind of -- of
fallout.
And so he has to do a -- a --a real balancing act. And at the same time, I think it's also now the heads of the G20 countries. So it's not just South
Africa -- South Africa negotiation, but it's also almost a G20 leadership type of -- of -- of negotiation. You have two very, very different things.
[12:10:13]
I think the -- the most important thing is that President Ramaphosa did bring (INAUDIBLE) type of approach to a negotiation. That was absolutely
good. I was very fearful that it would be an agency delegation, which would just annoy the Trump administration.
I mean, he has Mr. Rupert, a white business leader and Retief Goosen and Ernie Els, golfers, great patriots of South Africa. So I think that's a --
it's very, very good start.
Now the important thing is Ramaphosa, not -- not to be defensive. So in a negotiation like this, it's to be open and to say, look, South Africa has
been anti-American for the last couple of years. You don't have to deny that -- to deny that would be silly and it would just be annoying. So you -
- you know, so that has to be accepted.
And then there will be the delicate balance between responding, defending things like -- or -- or responding to the there's no white genocide in
South Africa.
Although at the same time, you know, we've got a very high crime rate, so it's black and white are suffering from crime. So really going to have to
take a very open pose, acknowledge the wrongs and then look towards the future to get a deal for South Africa.
GOLODRYGA: In terms of what South Africans will be watching for, I mean, yes, there is, one, this priority to dispel these unproven allegations. But
also as you just hinted on, the domestic issues that have been plaguing the country as well.
GDP growth, I believe, is at its lowest in five years. The unemployment rate is at 32 percent. Ramaphosa -- Ramaphosa's approval rating is around
18 percent as well.
So, what will South Africans be watching for and what will come across as a victory for them in terms of a positive meeting?
GUMEDE: Yes. No, absolutely. I mean, this is one of the most critical negotiations certainly for South Africa since the end of apartheid. You
have to think about it is although the U.S. is South Africa's second biggest trading partner in technical terms, in technical trade terms, it is
actually South Africa's biggest trading partner if we bring in development aids and all kinds of other kinds of support, you know, non-state U.S.
support for South Africa. So this is really is the U.S.'s very, very key to us.
So a good deal would be, you know, to -- to lower that trade tariffs, you know, sitting at 30 percent obviously.
And also, you know, to retain that AGOA deal, the African Growth Opportunity Act deals for South Africa to stay in there. If -- if -- if it
fails with that, to be able to strike a -- a bilateral agreement, there is less on a risk for South Africa. I think that's -- it's going to be very,
very important.
But he will still have to deal with, you know, the cloning (ph) issues is we've got an expropriation law in South Africa acts as, which in fairness
undermine property rights that I show. You have to speak to that.
I mean, there is a way out on that also for him because he could say, well, so I think it's a constitutional democracy and that law is going to be
taken to court. And if it's unconstitutional, the court will -- will reject it.
So for me, most important thing, he must not be defensive. He must openly acknowledge where South Africa has wronged under the U.S. And he also has
to be also be grateful at the same time, because the U.S. has been a very generous supporter of South Africa in development aids in terms of trade.
For those things are important, so that still is a very delicate balance.
ASHER: All right. William Gumede, we'll see what comes out. Oh, to be a fly in the wall in the Oval Office.
GOLODRYGA: No, seriously.
ASHER: Thank you, William. Appreciate it.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Still to come for us, authorities in Mexico City work to catch a gunman who brazenly shot and killed two top aides of the city's
mayor, we have the latest, ahead.
ASHER: And another escaped inmate has been caught after breaking out of an American jail just days ago. And now police have arrested a man accused of
being an accomplice for all 10 escapees.
GOLODRYGA: Plus, on a much lighter, much more uplifting note, Kermit the Frog will visit the old stomping grounds of his creator, Jim Henson, to
deliver a special commencement address. Our own Sara Sidner talks to him coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I would like to start with the song.
KERMIT THE FROG: OK.
SIDNER: Why are there so many --
KERMIT THE FROG: Songs about rainbows and what's on the other side. That's pretty good.
[12:15:04]
SIDNER: I tried. I tried.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Another escapee in the New Orleans jailbreak was captured overnight, but authorities are still searching for five more inmates on the
run.
19-year-old Corey Boyd was arrested Tuesday, four days after he and nine others broke out of prison.
ASHER: Sterling Williams, a maintenance worker for the Orleans Parish Sheriff Office, was also taken into custody. He's facing 11 charges with
New Orleans on high alert. Sheriff Susan Hudson spoke about the jailbreak yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN HUDSON, ORLEANS PARISH SHERIFF: First, I want to begin by standing clearly and directly. The escape of 10 individuals from the Orleans Justice
Center is unacceptable. It is deeply troubling to me as your sheriff, and I know it is equally troubling to you and the public that we are sworn to
protect. As your sheriff, I take full accountability for this failure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHER: All right. Let's go live now to the Oval Office where President Trump is speaking with the South African leader. Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: South Africa, President Ramaphosa. And he is a man who is certainly in some circles really
respected on the circles, a little bit less respected, like all of us in all fairness.
CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT: We all like that.
TRUMP: We also have a few of my friends, Ernie Els, a great golfer. He's a truly great golfer. Retief Goosen, who is an under, under, really -- we
call him really a great golfer too, Ernie, right? You two guys are fantastic. And we could add Gary to the group, Gary Player. What a group of
golfers South Africa's had.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes.
TRUMP: There must be something in the water, right? Something good. These two guys are unbelievable.
RAMAPHOSA: It's the water. It's the water set.
TRUMP: Gary -- Gary's -- Gary. And David Frost also, another one --
RAMAPHOSA: Yes.
TRUMP: -- that I know is such a great one.
RAMAPHOSA: Mm-hmm.
TRUMP: Was he -- was he as good a player as they say, David? He's a putter. He's a putting machine, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
TRUMP: But he's another one that says something very good about South African golf. And golf is still doing great in South Africa. And they have
young players I hear coming up there that are going to be very good.
But it's an honor to have you here. My friend, it's an honor to have you, one of the greatest business men in South African, long and long beyond.
Thank you for being here. It's very, very great honor. Appreciate it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
TRUMP: So we're going to be discussing certain things. As you know, we have the G20 is going to South Africa. When is that going to be?
[12:20:07]
RAMAPHOSA: In November.
TRUMP: In November.
RAMAPHOSA: And thereafter, I hand over to you.
TRUMP: Yes, we have it next.
RAMAPHOSA: You originated the G20, so I'll hand over back them to you.
TRUMP: OK.
RAMAPHOSA: And then you need the G20.
TRUMP: We're going to have it -- we're going to have it the following year.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes. Yes.
TRUMP: So we'll be discussing many things and some of the things you've been reading about in the papers.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes.
TRUMP: And the media. And I would say that, look, the president is a truly respected man in many, many circles. And in some circles, he's considered a
little controversial. But we're going to be discussing some of the things that are taking place in South Africa and see if we can help. And we want
to help. And we've had a long relationship with South Africa.
I have because indirectly I have so many friends that live there. I have a lot of friends. These are famous guys, but I have a lot of friends that
live there that are tremendous people. And we'll be discussing that. We'll have a -- a nice conversation. And I really appreciate that you guys came
along. It really -- it really helps us in our thought process.
But it is a great honor to have you. And I appreciate you called. You -- he called. I don't know where you got my number, but I freaked out. He said, I
want to come over and see you. That was my honor. And thank you very much for being here.
RAMAPHOSA: You're most welcome.
TRUMP: Thank you.
RAMAPHOSA: Most welcome. Well, thank you very much for welcoming us to this reformed White House I've been here before. And it looks really fantastic.
I must congratulate you.
TRUMP: Thank you.
RAMAPHOSA: But I also thank you for allowing our delegation. This is a very mixed delegation that you've got. We've got people from government, my
ministers. I've got someone from the trade union movement who you really collaborate with and from business as well. And our sporting legends.
When I spoke to you, you said, yes, come along and bring Gary Player, bring Ernie Els and Retief Goosen. I brought the two of them.
Gary Player --
TRUMP: What -- what happened to Gary?
RAMAPHOSA: And I spoke to him. And he said, look, I'm getting rather on in my years. But wishes his luck in this discussion with you. So it's a real
joy.
And I'd also like to thank you for allowing your people to start discussions with us at the trade level. I mean, we are essentially here to
reset the relationship between the United States and South Africa.
We are long -- longstanding partners in many, many ways. We collaborated in many fields, in space issues, in energy, and in trade. And we therefore
need to reset that, particularly in the light of some of the announcements that you made on -- on trade and investment.
So we want to advance more trade between the two of us, two countries. And our people now have been empowered by yourself and by myself to start
engaging. And we hope that we will be able to fuel that engagement during our talks.
And we also want to discuss issues that have to do with how we promote further investments in both countries. We've got about 22 companies from
South Africa that have been invested in the U.S., thus creating a number of jobs.
And similarly, you've got almost 600 companies that have invested in South Africa. And some of them have been in South Africa for more than 100 years.
TRUMP: That's true.
RAMAPHOSA: So our links are -- are really long-lasting. And we would like to recalibrate those relations between our two countries and discuss a
whole range of issues, geopolitical, the work that you're doing to being priests around the world, Ukraine, and in the Middle East.
So we value that. And we are also a great contributor to peace processes that are going on around the world.
And, of course, we want to discuss how we can support each other. You are a much bigger economy than we are. We are just a tiny economy, but we rely on
each other on a number of issues. We've got critical minerals that you want to fuel the growth of your own economy and re-industrialize. So we have
that on offer, including rare earth minerals.
So all that combination of opportunity and the -- the products that we buy from you, as well as what we sell to you, I believe, makes up a really good
and powerful relationship, which we need to strengthen, which we need to engender. And that is really what has brought us here.
And we are really privileged to have, you know, great South Africans in the mix, as you said, you'd like to see them as well.
[12:25:05]
Now, I brought you a really fantastic golf book, weighs 14 kilograms.
TRUMP: Oh. That sounds good.
RAMAPHOSA: And it showcases the golf courses in our country. Johann Rupert wrote a pre-phase, sorted any else. And I want to showcase our golf
courses.
You might remember when I spoke to you, and we spoke about golf, you said, I should start practicing. And I've started practicing, President, so I'm
ready.
But let me end just the introductory remarks by thanking you. You may not recall that five years ago, I spoke to you, during the COVID period.
TRUMP: Right.
RAMAPHOSA: And it was at a time when the whole world was going through a really cathartic moment.
TRUMP: Right.
RAMAPHOSA: And we asked for assistance, and you were able to assist us with res -- what do you call that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Respirators.
RAMAPHOSA: Respirators. Respirators. Respirators. And you kept your words, and you delivered respirators to us. We didn't have as many in our country.
It really helped to deal -- to help us deal with COVID.
So I'm here also to say thank you and to defend the people of America for having helped us during a really difficult time. Being this small economy
that we are, we needed help from around the world, and you were there to provide that. So thank you very much.
TRUMP: I remember the call.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes. You said 150 respirators. We became the respirator king. We started making them. Nobody had them. We have very few of them.
RAMAPHOSA: That's right.
TRUMP: But they were very helpful. But we send 150.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes.
TRUMP: And I appreciated the letter. You wrote me a letter.
RAMAPHOSA: That's right.
TRUMP: Thank you.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes.
TRUMP: I appreciate it very much
RAMAPHOSA: Thank you very much for that. You really touched my heart after I spoke -- spoke to you and you delivered.
TRUMP: It's great honor.
RAMAPHOSA: Thank you very much. Yes. Yes.
TRUMP: Any questions, please?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, why do you have white Afrikaners refugees here? Can you explain to Americans why it's appropriate to welcome white
Afrikaners here when other refugees like Afghans, Venezuelans, Haitians of all had their protected status revoked?
TRUMP: Well, this is a group, NBC, that is truly fake news. They ask a lot of questions in a very pointed way. They're not questions, they're
statements.
We've had tremendous complaints about Africa, about other countries, too, from people. They say there's a lot of bad things going on in Africa, and
that's what we're going to be discussing today.
When you say we don't take others, all you have to do is take a look at the southern border. We let 21 million people come through our border. Totally
unchecked, totally unvetted. They came from all over the world.
In many cases, they're criminals. They come from prisons. They come from mental institutions. They come from street gangs, they're drug dealers. So
don't say that we didn't take them. We take them. We're trying to get them out as fast as we can. And we're doing record business on that.
And we just want a big case where we're allowed to send back hundreds of criminals to Venezuela. Just won that today in the Supreme Court. I'm happy
to hear.
But we do have a lot of -- a lot of people who are very concerned with regard to South Africa, and that's really the purpose of the meeting, and
we'll see how that turns out.
But we have many people that feel they're being persecuted, and they're coming to the United States. And we take from many -- many locations, if we
feel there's persecution or genocide going on. And we had a lot of people.
I must tell you, Mr. President, we have had a tremendous number of people, especially since they've seen this, generally they're white farmers, and
they're fleeing South Africa. And it's a -- you know, it's a very sad thing to see.
But I hope we can have an explanation of that, because I know you don't want that. And it's, you know, it's a kind of a different meeting.
Normally, we have meetings we talk about trade. And we'll be talking about trade and other things. But that certainly will be a subject that comes up.
Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Please. Brian?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much. I'd like to get your thoughts on Letitia James. Director of Pulte, according to him, Letitia James says that
the alleged mortgage fraud was simply a mistake.
I want to get your thoughts on that? She put down that her -- her -- her father with her husband in order? And this is very similar to, I guess, the
false attacks they have on you.
TRUMP: Well, I don't know what it is currently. But Letitia James, who's the Attorney General of New York State, it seemed. I'm not involved in that
at all. I know that it's being handled by various groups, I guess.
[12:30:58]
But it's a -- it's major fraud, mortgage documents and fraudulent everything. I think she said the father was her husband, which she had to
have a husband. So she chose her father and to put it down. And she had the -- then she signed in Virginia. Yet -- she's -- she said she lived in
Virginia. And she's the New York State Attorney General. And she did that for tax reasons, so she could take advantage of taxes.
And she had the wrong number of units. She had a much different number, which wouldn't have allowed her to qualify and scam the government.
So I don't know. I think she's very bad for New York, but I really don't know too much about it, but I appreciate the question. Thank you very much.
Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President (INAUDIBLE) like there's no genocide?
TRUMP: Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Mr. President. So May 25th will be the celebration of Africa, which really much a lot of our celebration when you
take the place around the world, including in the United States.
Why is your message that the majority of African continent, African people, in this important occasion?
TRUMP: Well, I want to see peace. And I want to see happiness. I want to see health, and you know, you have incredible land. It's tremendous value.
A lot of countries don't have that value in the land, the value you have.
You know, we have a situation I think you probably heard about. We've done through some very talented people who have settled a war that's been raging
for years, Rwanda and the Congo.
And I think we've done it. Believe it or not, I think we've done it. And I could we just say a few words about that, my friend?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. A couple of weeks ago we signed -- they signed -- the two parties signed the declaration of principle, in which they might
lead on the way forward. And we are -- they have both submitted the draft peace agreements.
And we -- we have put together one that incorporates both of their suggestions. And we've given it to them. So we're in the process of
finalizing this.
TRUMP: Looking good, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking very good.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes. No. We have to thank you for even those efforts, because the African continent, particularly Southern -- our Southern African
development community, has for years been seeking to foster peace in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
So all efforts, including those from outside the continent and inside the continent, are really worthwhile. We have just -- we are remove -- removing
our troops from there so that peace can then prevail in that whole area.
And we hope that with the support of the international community, we will really have peace in that area. It's so vital. It's so important for the
whole region.
TRUMP: Well, we sent our people there. And I think we did a very good job. I said it by my friend, and that was great, and it was great. I mean, I'm
just hearing phenomenal reports, because all I'm hearing is death, death, and they're chopping heads off, and it's so horrible over there.
And it was really brave of you to go there, and I really appreciate it. And it looks like that -- it looks like we have something very, very
substantial. We also talked about trade with them in terms of rare earth and all, but and really more for the -- it's like, if you take a look at
what we just did with Pakistan and India, we settled that whole.
And -- and I think I settled it through trade. We're -- we're doing a big deal with India. We're doing a big deal with Pakistan. And I said, what are
you guys doing? You know, somebody had to be the last one to shoot.
But the shooting was getting worse and worse, bigger and bigger, deeper and deeper into the countries. And we spoke to them, and we -- I think we --
you know, I hate to say we got it settled, and then two days later, something happens, and they say, it's Trump's fault. But we -- Pakistan has
got some excellent people and some really good, great leader. And India is my friend, Modi.
RAMAPHOSA: Modi.
TRUMP: And he's a --
RAMAPHOSA: A mutual friend.
TRUMP: Yes. He's a great guy. And I call them both. And we just did something good. We -- we're trying to settle Russia-Ukraine.
We spoke with President Putin for two and a half hours the day before yesterday. I think we made a lot of progress, but that's a bloodbath, 5,000
people are being killed a week. Five thousand soldiers a week. Not including people in cities and towns that are also being killed. So we're
trying to help.
And it doesn't affect us. It's not our people. It's not our soldiers. It's not our -- it's Ukraine and it's Russia. But if we can save 5,000 souls,
we'll do it, you know. I'm pretty good at it. But that's a -- that's a bad situation. That is a really bad situation.
RAMAPHOSA: Well, you recall when President Zelenskyy was coming to South Africa. That's when I spoke to you.
TRUMP: That's right.
RAMAPHOSA: We both agreed that we need to push the peace message so that it can really be peace.
[12:35:05]
And we've been involved in the Ukraine-Russia conflict for quite a while. My minister of state security here. We've been dealing with them in the
exchange of children. We've taken away going through names and addresses and all that.
So we've been invested in that whole process as well. And the moves that you're making are fully supported by us, because we would like to see the
end of that war.
TRUMP: Sure. I called Zelenskyy and they said, he's in South Africa. I said, what the hell is he doing in South Africa?
RAMAPHOSA: He was talking to us?
TRUMP: He got this. I said -- I said, what are you doing in South Africa?
RAMAPHOSA: Yes.
TRUMP: That's a strange one.
RAMAPHOSA: He's trying to make peace. We -- we're chasing him.
You know, we were -- we were lucky because we had the great Nelson Mandela who taught us how to create peace, to make peace. So we were imparting some
of those lessons to him, some of those learnings.
And I specifically went into him that this is how Nelson Mandela taught us that when you want to have the peace in a country, do it on an
unconditional basis and sit down and talk, and that's precisely what I'm sure he's going to need to do.
TRUMP: Well, I want to see what happens with that when there's a lot of -- there's a lot of hatred.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes.
TRUMP: There's a lot of -- a lot of death. It's a bloodbath.
RAMAPHOSA: It is. It is.
TRUMP: I get the --
RAMAPHOSA: Unfortunately.
TRUMP: I get the satellite pictures of that field, of that killing field. You never saw anything like it in your life.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes.
TRUMP: It's horrible. It's a horrible thing that goes on. But I think we made big progress.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Yes. Please go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Mr. President.
TRUMP: No, no. Not you. White hair.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: He's from South Africa. Go ahead, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you expecting on the ICJ case? Are you expecting some of the kind of problems that are being provided?
TRUMP: On which case?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ICJ case (INAUDIBLE).
RAMAPHOSA: The International Criminal Justice.
TRUMP: I don't expect anything, to be honest. I really don't. I don't know. It's -- they've got a case. There's a lot of anger there. Tremendous anger.
I don't expect anything. We'll see what happens. We'll have a ruling. And who knows what the ruling is going to mean.
Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On that subject of Gaza, Mr. President, are you going to be speaking to Prime Minister Netanyahu about Israel's renewed defense
(INAUDIBLE) concerned from European countries? The Pope has expressed concerned.
Are you going to be asking the Prime Minister Netanyahu to turn down the events in Gaza so that more aid in?
TRUMP: Was that a question or a statement?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a question.
TRUMP: He never changed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, this side.
TRUMP: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What would it take for you -- for you to be convinced that there's no White genocide in South Africa?
RAMAPHOSA: Well, I can answer that for President. It's for you.
(CROSSTALK)
I'm serious.
TRUMP: I can have him answer.
RAMAPHOSA: I can answer that. It will be --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our President will respond to you. Thank you, Mr. President.
RAMAPHOSA: It will take President Trump listening to the voices of South Africa, some of whom are his good friends, like those who are here.
When we have talks between us on the quiet -- another table, it will take President Trump to listen to them. I'm not going to be repeating what I've
been saying. I would say if there was Afrikaner farmer genocide, I can bet you these three gentlemen would not be here, including my Minister of
Agriculture. He would not be with me.
So it will take him, President Trump listening to their stories, to their perspective. That is the answer to your question.
TRUMP: But, Mr. President, I must say that we have --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Trump --
TRUMP: No, no. Quiet. We have thousands of stories talking about it. We have documentaries. We have news stories. Is Natalie here? Is somebody here
to turn that? I could show you a couple of things.
And I would -- I just -- I have to -- it has to be responded to.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes. Sure.
TRUMP: Let me see the articles, please, if you would. And turn -- excuse me. Turn the lights down. Turn the lights down. And just put this on. It's
right behind you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's nothing this parliament can do with or without you. People are going to occupy land. We require no permission from you,
from the President, from no one. We don't care. We can do whatever we want to do.
Who are you to tell us white Afrikaner who to buy land or not? We are going to occupy land South African occupy land. That's who we are.
(CROSSTALK)
[12:40:56]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never be scared to kill a revolution divide that at some point there must be killing, because the killing is part of the revolution,
right? (INAUDIBLE)
(SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The man of (INAUDIBLE) is a wise man. So this people are ready to let (INAUDIBLE) grow up from their (INAUDIBLE)
Not because (INAUDIBLE) they will be tough. Come on. But we're starting with this white mess. We're cutting the throat of (INAUDIBLE)
(SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know what's going on in the future (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And do not discuss (INAUDIBLE). It sounds like genocidal (INAUDIBLE)
(SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or that's (INAUDIBLE) without compensation, whether they like it or not, if they object, they can seek refuge in America.
TRUMP: Now this is very bad. These are the -- these are burial sites right here. Burial sites. Over a thousand of white farmers. And those cars are
lined up to pay love on a Sunday morning.
Each one of those white things you see is a cross, and there's approximately a thousand of them. They're all white farmers. The family of
white farmers. And those cars aren't driving. They stop there to pay respects to their family members who's killed. And it's a terrible sight.
I've never seen anything like it.
Both sides of the road you have crosses. Those people are all killed.
RAMAPHOSA: Have they told you where that is, Mr. President?
TRUMP: No. No.
RAMAPHOSA: I'd like to know where that is, because this I've never seen. Okay.
TRUMP: I mean, it's in South Africa.
RAMAPHOSA: We need to find out.
TRUMP: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, the Pentagon announced that you'll be accepting a Qatari jet to use as Air Force One.
TRUMP: What are you talking about?
(CROSSTALK)
RAMAPHOSA: Let me explain. I want to respond to it.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: What are you talking about? You know, you need to get out of here. What does this have to do with the Qatari jet? They're giving the United
States Air Force a jet, OK? And it's a great thing.
We're talking about a lot of other things. This NBC trying to get off the subject of what you just saw. You are a real -- you know, you're a terrible
reporter.
(CROSSTALK)
[12:45:02]
TRUMP: Number one, you -- you don't have what it takes to be a reporter. You're not smart enough.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, sir.
TRUMP: But for you to go into a subject about a -- a jet that was given to the United States Air Force, which is a very nice thing. They also gave
$5.1 trillion worth of investment in addition to the jet.
Go back. You ought to go back to your studio at NBC, because Brian Roberts and the people that run that place, they ought to be investigated. They are
so terrible the way you run that network. And you are a disgrace. No more questions from you. Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
Go ahead. Talk about that. His name is Peter. He's a terrible reporter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) genocide. Why --
TRUMP: Quiet. Quiet. Quiet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's my question though.
TRUMP: Let's go.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you so much. President Trump, I would love to (INAUDIBLE) South Africa. Thank you very much.
TRUMP: Thank you very much too.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What would you like President Ramaphosa to do about the situation --
TRUMP: I don't know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- that we've just seen on the screen?
TRUMP: I don't know. Look, these are articles over the last few days. Death of people. Death. Death. Death. Horrible death. Death. I don't know. So
pick anyone. White South Africans are fleeing because of the violence and racist laws.
And this is all -- I mean, I'll give these to you.
RAMAPHOSA: I'd like to --
TRUMP: So when you -- when you say what would I like to do, I don't know what to do. Look at this. White South African couples say that they were
attacked violently.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then (INAUDIBLE) and see for yourself (INAUDIBLE).
TRUMP: Well I can do that. Look, here's burial sites all over the place. They're all -- These are all white farmers that are being burned. And he
asks about a jet that was given. You ought to be ashamed (INAUDIBLE). You know, you -- you are so bad. You're such a bad reporter.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: This is one after another. This family was wiped out. I'm just looking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can we get (INAUDIBLE) reactions to those videos, Mr. President Trump?
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Well, I think it's the -- I think the videos are so -- no, no. When you look at the videos, I mean, how does it get worse? And these are people
that are officials and they're saying that kill the white farmer and take their land.
That's what it is. And I have other friends in South Africa, people that left, one in particular that says it's -- you can't go there. He said, they
want to take your land, they take your land and they kill you. It's OK. And they say it's OK to do.
Now, I -- we're -- we're going to talk about it.
RAMAPHOSA: We're going to.
TRUMP: But this is a tremendous -- look, this story is recent. These are all people that recently got killed.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes.
TRUMP: And I don't know how it can get any worse. These are all (INAUDIBLE)
(CROSSTALK)
And, you know, the men that you saw -- the men that you saw, the people that you saw in that -- well, those are officials. Those are people that
were in office. They had one march. They had a dance in your parliament, whatever you may call it, legislation.
RAMAPHOSA: But let -- let me clarify that.
TRUMP: Yes.
RAMAPHOSA: Let me clarify, of course. What you saw, the speeches that were being made. One, that is not government policy. We have a march party
democracy in South Africa. That allows people to express themselves, political parties to adhere to various policies.
And in many cases, or in some cases, those policies do not go along with government policy. Our government policy is completely, completely against
what he was saying, even in the parliament.
And they're a small minority party, which is allowed to exist in terms of our constitution, which --
TRUMP: But you do allow them to take land?
RAMAPHOSA: No, no, no.
TRUMP: You do allow them to take land.
RAMAPHOSA: No -- nobody can take the land.
TRUMP: And then they take the land, they kill the white farmer. And when they kill the white farmer, nothing happens to them.
RAMAPHOSA: No. There is quite -- nothing happens. There is criminality in our country. People who do get killed, unfortunately, through criminal
activity, are not only white people. Majority of them are black people.
And we have now been utilized --
TRUMP: The farmers are not black. The farmers are not black.
RAMAPHOSA: We -- I don't know.
TRUMP: You say that's good or bad, but the farmers are not black. And the people that are being killed in large numbers, and you saw all those grave
sites. And those are people that loved ones going, I guess on a Sunday morning they told me to pay respect to their loved ones that were killed.
Their heads chopped off. They're -- they died -- died violently. And, you know, I mean, we're here to talk about it. And I didn't know we get
involved here.
[12:50:01]
But I will say this, that if the news was in fake, like NBC, which is fake news, totally one of the worst ABC, NBC, CBS horrible. But if they weren't
fake news like this jerk that we have here, we had real reporters, they'd be covering it.
But the fake news in this country doesn't talk about that. They don't want to talk about it, but now they have to talk about it, but they won't. This
won't even be a subject, they'll have him talking about why did a country give a free -- think -- think of this.
Why did a country give an airplane to the United States Air Force? OK? The United States, not to me, to the United States Air Force so they could help
us out because we need an Air Force One until our -- since Air Force One it's being built, two of them being built, but Boeing's a little bit late
unfortunately, so why did they give us a plane to the United States Air Force? That's what that idiot talks about, after viewing a thing with
thousands of people are dead.
RAMAPHOSA: I'm sorry I don't have a plane to give you.
TRUMP: I wish you did. I'd take it. I would take it. If your country offered the United States Air Force a plane, I would take it.
RAMAPHOSA: OK. But coming back to -- to this issue, which I really would like us to talk about and talk about it very calmly. We were taught by
Nelson Mandela that whenever there are problems, people need to sit down around the table and talk about it.
TRUMP: Well, there are problems.
RAMAPHOSA: And this is precisely what we would also like to talk about, including of course trade matters, investment matters. So the issues that
concern you as the United States.
TRUMP: Those are all recent. Those are all deaths.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes. In many ways, I mean one -- one should say, you are a partner, partner of South Africa, and you are raising concerns. And these
are concerns that we are willing to talk to you about.
Let me just add quickly. You know, the criminality that we are experiencing in our country needs quite a lot of technological capability. And in one of
our areas in -- in South Africa, we're using U.S. technology, which is able to, in many ways, identify where shootings are happening and all that.
And I'd like to talk about that, because there is support that we can get from you at the United States to help us deal with all these acts of
criminality. And that is what I believe partnership is all about. And that we are here as a partner so that we can help each other whenever there are
challenges.
So I'd like us to discuss it, and of course, outside of the media, so that we sit down and have a really good discussion that will lead to good
outcomes.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I barely unheard (INAUDIBLE) measures that could be in place should you not be satisfied that South Africa is facing some of the
very bad things (INAUDIBLE) are happening.
TRUMP: Well, there are a lot of bad things happening in, you know, many countries, but this, in particular, has been very, very bad, very bad. And
because of, you know, we're going to whole -- have the whole world watching it in another short period of time because you have the G20, and that's a
big deal.
And it -- it seems like -- I mean, I want you to look good. I don't want you to look bad.
RAMAPHOSA: Very good.
TRUMP: But we have hundreds of people, thousands of people, trying to come into our country because they feel they're going to be killed. And their
land is going to be confiscated.
And you do have laws that were passed that gives you the right to confiscate land for no payment. You can take away land for no payment.
RAMAPHOSA: I want to clarify that. Because we have a constitution, our constitution guarantees and protects the sanctity of tenure of land
ownership. And that constitution protects all South Africans with regard to land ownership.
However, we do say, because we've got to deal with the past, the government, and as your government also has the right to expropriate land
for public use.
TRUMP: And you're doing that.
RAMAPHOSA: And we've never really gotten underway with that. And we -- we are going to be doing that.
TRUMP: You're taking people's land away --
RAMAPHOSA: We -- we have not.
TRUMP: -- from them.
RAMAPHOSA: We have --
TRUMP: And those people, in many cases, are being executed. They're being executed. And they happen to be white. And most of them happen to be
farmers. And that's a tough situation. I don't know how you explain that. How do you explain that?
They're taking people's land away. And in many cases, those people are being executed. And in many cases, it's not the government that's going to,
it's people that kill them, and then take their land. And nothing happens to them.
But we have thousands of people that want to come into our country. They're also going to Australia in a smaller number. But we have thousands of
people that want to come into our country, and they're white farmers, and they feel that they're going to die in South Africa. And it's a bad thing.
[12:55:14]
Yes, please.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, what can South Africa do? What concessions would you like to see them make to improve relations with the
United States? Then I have one more for President Ramaphosa afterwards.
TRUMP: Well, you know, we just spoke about it. I got them a very, very complex machine, 150 of them. I was asked by the president if it could
help.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes.
TRUMP: And I did that.
RAMAPHOSA: And, you know, I have great feeling for all countries. Look, I deal with all countries. But I have a great feeling for South Africa,
because I have friends. I have a couple of friends, a few friends here today. I have many friends from South Africa.
But many of those friends are -- they can't go back. I have -- Elon is from South Africa. I don't want to get Elon involved. That's all I have to do,
get him into another thing.
But Elon happens to be from South Africa. This is what Elon wanted. He actually came here in a different subject, sending rockets to Mars, OK? He
likes that better. He likes that subject better.
RAMAPHOSA: That's right.
TRUMP: But Elon is from South Africa. But I don't want to talk to him about that. I don't want to -- I don't think it's fair to him.
RAMAPHOSA: That's right.
TRUMP: But I will say that people are fleeing South Africa for their own safety. Their land is being confiscated. And in many cases, they're being
killed. And that scene of -- you see how many crosses they have. Those crosses -- that's a dead person in every one of them.
And those trucks or cars are paying their respects to all of those dead people on a Sunday morning. That's a -- that's a rough -- that's a rough
thing to explain away.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: And the problem we have and -- and the way, you know, a correct and a fair media exposes things. But we have a very corrupt media. They won't
even report this. If this were the other way around, it would be the biggest story.
Now, I will say apartheid, terrible. That was the biggest -- that was reported all the time. This is sort of the opposite of apartheid.
What's happening now is never reported. Nobody knows about it. All we know is we're being inundated with people, with white farmers from South Africa.
And it's a big problem.
Marco Rubio was telling me he's never seen anything like it. The numbers of people that want to leave South Africa because they feel they're going to
be dead very soon.
Yes, please. Brian, go.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I could just ask you a question. Seventy-two percent of farmers in your country are white. If they flee, do you feel
that maybe the economy could -- could collapse? You may not have a gap to fill in those people that need to replace those farmers.
RAMAPHOSA: You know, I'd like my minister of agriculture, who is white, who comes from opposition party to mine, who has joined my government, at my
invitation, to address some -- this very issue, including the question that you've just raised.
John?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
RAMAPHOSA: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, thank you for welcoming us to the White House.
I would say we have a rural safety problem in the South Africa. I don't think anyone wants to candy coat that. And it requires a lot of effort to
get on top of it. It's going to require more policing resources. It's going to require different strategy to be able to deal with it.
But certainly the majority of South Africa's commercial and small farmers really do want to stay in South Africa and make it work. And I've just come
from the largest agricultural show in the Southern Hemisphere with organized agriculture and farmers, and the majority want to stay.
But they, too, they have a memorial to those who've died as a result of farm attacks.
And as the Minister of Agriculture, it is something that I'm particularly exercised with my colleagues at police and my colleagues in the justice
cluster to stop making farm attacks and stock theft a priority crime.
And it affects all farmers in South Africa, particularly stock theft has a disproportionate effect on small black farmers.
I also want to just say this, that the two individuals that are in that video that you've seen are both leaders of opposition minority parties in
South Africa, uMkohnto weSizwe under Mr. Zuma, and the economic freedom fighters under Mr. Malema.
Now, the reason that my party, the Democratic Alliance, which has been an opposition party over 30 years, chose to join hands with Mr. Ramaphosa's
party, was precisely to keep those people out of power.
We cannot have those people sitting in the union buildings making decisions. And that is why after 50 years of us exchanging barbs across the
floor in Parliament and trying to get one over on each other, we've decided to join hands, precisely to keep that lot out of government.
Because the day they get in to the doors of the union buildings in South Africa, or control of our Parliament, that's what you're going to see. nd
that is why this government, working together, needs a support of our allies around the world. So, that we can strengthen our hand, grow our
economy, and shut the door forever on that rabble, getting through the doors of the union bodies. Because then, South Africa's future would be --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you denounced that type of language in the video that you saw?
CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT: Oh, yes. We've always done so as government, as my own party. We are completely opposed to that. We, in
1955, adopted a document which said South Africa belongs to all who live in it.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: But why wouldn't you arrest that man? That man said, kill the white farmers. Kill the white farmers. And then, he
danced and he's dancing, dancing and kill the white farmers?
I think -- I'm not sure, but I think if somebody got up in parliament and started saying, kill a certain group of people he would be in -- he would
be arrested very quickly. That man is going all over South Africa, and that's not a small party. That was a stadium that holds a hundred thousand
people and I hardly saw an empty seat. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of representation.
And those crosses, we have dead white people, dead white farmers, mostly. And you take a look at Australia, they're being inundated and we're being
inundated with people that want to get out. And their farm is valueless. It's valueless, and they just want to get out with their life. And it --
this is a very serious situation.
And if we had a real news or real press or media, we don't have that because they won't talk about this because they're all guys like that
idiot. But if we had a real press, it would be exposed. And you know, the beauty of exposing it is it's like a cleansing action. When it gets
exposed, it'll get fixed. That's when it'll get fixed. But people don't talk about it. And I'll tell you who's talking about, the thousands of
people that are fleeing South Africa right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We discussed USAID and devastates making impact the cuts are having across the African Continent.
TRUMP: Yes. Well, it's devastating. And hopefully, a lot of people are going to start spending a lot of money. And I've talked to other nations,
we want them to chip in and spend money too. And we've spent a lot, and it's a big -- it's a tremendous problem going on. In many countries, a lot
of problems going on.
The United States always gets the request for money. Nobody else helps. As you know, Europe doesn't help. Europe hasn't given anything. All they do is
sue our companies. You know, they sue Apple. And they sue all of our companies. Apple had to pay $17 billion on a nonsense lawsuit. Very unfair.
But we're going to always be there to help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- South African Broadcasting, if this Africana reset and the issue is resolved. We're going to go into a room after this. You
guys are going to talk if it is resolved, what is the potential for the future looking relationships between United States?
TRUMP: It's fantastic. It's got to be resolved. It should be resolved. It's -- I mean, it's a little bit bad when you see a stadium with a hundred
thousand people in it, because that means it's more than just a little movement. It's a pretty big movement in South Africa. So, it has to be
resolved. It'll be the end of the country if it's not resolved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But is the potential for the relationship moving forward?
TRUMP: I hope so. That's why I'm here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- in November.
TRUMP: I mean, I'm not here for my health. I'm here to see what -- no, I'd like to see it. I have friends. I can tell you Ernie Els or Retief Goosen,
they feel so strongly, they wanted to be here on behalf of South Africa, not on behalf of me. And you know, they said, can we be here for this?
Because they love the country. Ernie, do you guys want to say a couple of words or not? I don't -- I hate to put you in this -- this is tougher than
sinking a three-footer. (INAUDIBLE). They have -- and they've sank many three-footers.
ERNIE ELS, GOLFER: Thank you, Mr. President, and thanks for the honor of being here. We've known each other a long time. We have spoken. You know,
we're proud South Africans. I still have my South African passport. You know, we travel with this passport, you know, and I got my visa here.
So -- you know, but we want to see things get better in our home country. And that's the bottom line. It's been 35 years. Since the transition,
President Ramaphosa was right in the middle of the transition time in 1990 and before that.
[13:05:00]
So, it's been 35 years of ANC government. And I'm -- and I know there's a lot of anger, you know, through the transition. There's also a lot of stuff
happening in the apartheid days. You know, we grew up in the apartheid era. But I don't think two wrongs makes a right. You know, President Mandela,
when he came out of prison for all that time, didn't come out with hatred, you know. And really unified our nation in sport. You know, we won the
Rugby World Cup in the '95.
RAMAPHOSA: Four times.
ELS: We won the African Nations Cup soccer. You know, we won some majors as golfers and so forth. So, what I'm trying to say is, you know, we -- it
-- this has been a long time coming. That's why we really wanted to meet you, meet the administration, and see our way forward. Because we still
want to see our country flourish.
You know, we've got some great things going on. Businesses getting involved with government. Farming, farmers are getting involved in local
municipalities trying to rebuild some of the infrastructure that's been decaying for a long time.
So, there's a lot of coexistence going on and health from a lot of areas. But we need -- I feel we need the U.S. to push this thing through. We've
got a great ally. We can have the U.S. It's always been an ally of South Africa for a very long time. Even in the days of the war, you know, up in
Angola. You know, you guys helped us. So, very important for us to have your support and, you know, get the change we need.
TRUMP: Where did you do that? He might have done that even better than he plays golf, which is almost impossible. Johann, please.
JOHANN RUPERT, FORMER CEO, RICHERMONT: Sorry, Mr. President. If you had to wind all of those (INAUDIBLE) properly, you will see I'm the biggest target
of that rubber browser (ph), number one, for over 10 years. (INAUDIBLE). In fact, the first time I met him, he was in the youth league with that
gentleman, and look how he's changed him.
We have too many deaths, but it's across the board. It's not only white farmers, it's across the board. And we need technological help. We need
Starlink at every little police station. We need drones. I actually got drones donated for the peace parks to stop elephant poaching. And his
predecessor stopped the importation because he said the United States would spy on us. I mean, U.S. basics the ridicule.
So, if we can -- if you can help us. Remember, sir, you and I lived in New York in the '70s. We never thought New York could be what it became. Two
commissioner, a tough mayor. We need your help to stop this awful killing. But it's across the board.
Ernie is right now building a house in George. I'm building three cottages for my grandchildren on a farm outside (INAUDIBLE). I often go to bed
without locking the door. And we have a serious problem with illegal aliens. We stream across the border. And if you really look at the
statistics, a lot of these murders, firstly, it's unemployed, pending, and illegal aliens.
And then, I met Vice President Vance many years ago at Charlie Rose Show. And my wife loved the book. And she reminded me this morning that you
emphasized the devastation that occurs when big companies leave towns and cities, and there's a culture of dependency that develops. I remember you
discussing it. Now, that's our problem.
If we don't get our economy to grow, the culture of dependency and the lawlessness will increase. I've been against apartheid that all my life and
I'm their number one target. Please just Google my name and Malema, you'll see it, sir.
TRUMP: Yes.
RUPERT: He marched on the phone --
[13:10:00]
TRUMP: But the crime is bad.
RUPERT: The crime is terrible, sir, but (INAUDIBLE) won't admit to it, but he runs the Western Cape where I live. Well, the biggest murder, right, is
in the Cape Flats. Gangs. We've got gang warfare. Like your M23, what -- with these guys? We've got equivalence there. But we need your help, sir.
And we need a Elon's technology.
RAMAPHOSA: Well, one of the real areas of support is really in investments. We've got to grow our economy because through growing the
economy, we are then able to create more jobs. Because crime really thrives where there is inequality and unenrolled, and that is one of the reasons
that has brought us here to improve our investment relations, our trade relations, so that we can preserve the number of jobs that your companies
have created in South Africa by virtue of what we export to you, we are able to create up to 500,000 jobs in the auto industry, in the agricultural
industry, and a number of other industries, mining where we export things to you.
And we also know that as South African companies invest here, you are also able to create jobs. So, it's a mutually beneficial relationship. So, our
main, main real reason for being here is to foster trade and investment so that we are able to grow our economy with your support and so that we are
also able to address all these societal problems, because criminality thrives when people are unemployed, when they have no other hope to eke out
a living. So, that is what we need to resolve.
And we'll support your partnership with us, is what is really going to give us a strong, strong capability to moving forward.
TRUMP: Retief, do you have -- excuse me? Do you have anything to say? I mean, I don't want to leave you out. You know, the guy won three or four
majors. Three or four?
RETIEF GOOSEN, GOLFER: No, only two.
TRUMP: That's a lot. By the way, two's a lot. A lot of tournaments you won too. Do you have anything to say?
GOOSEN: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President, President Ramaphosa. I grew up in an area in South Africa that is a farmland area, Polokwane. And there is
some issues up there, obviously. My dad was a property developer as well as a part-time farmer.
And yes, some of his buddy farmers got killed. The farm is still going. My brother's run it. But it's a constant battle with farms trying to get --
they're trying to burn the farms down to chase you away. So, it is a concern to try and make a living as a farmer. And at the end they, you know
--
ZAIN ASHER, CNN HOST, ONE WORLD: All right. You've just been listening to President Donald Trump and South African President Cyril Ramaphosa
addressing reporters in the Oval Office. I would say that that started off fairly well, but then quickly descended into chaos. I mean, by the end of
it there, it was pretty much a disaster because Cyril Ramaphosa was thrown an impossible situation. President Donald Trump showed him several articles
reportedly showing white South Africans who had been killed and then showed him a video.
For those of you who watched the video was of Julius Malema the head of EFF, the Economic Freedom Fighters in South Africa. That is a communist
South African party. They had been known for really racially motivated chance. Julius Malema has been convicted of hate speech a number of times.
He has talked about killing white South Africans. That is the video that President Trump played.
He then showed what he said was a burial ground of white South African farmers. Cyril Ramaphosa responded to it, saying, I don't know where that
is. Tell me where that is. And President Trump couldn't answer that. It was a difficult situation for President Ramaphosa, but he handled it
graciously, he was calm, he was composed. But again, a really difficult situation for the South African president, especially because he came here
with needing a trade deal from the United States and having to navigate that.
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST, ONE WORLD: And that's where things began with discussions about trade and relations between these two countries that have
extended far beyond even these two administrations, the history of these two countries. President Ramaphosa thanking President Trump again for
sending over a hundred respirators during COVID and talking about the need for re-establishing trade between the countries.
[13:15:00]
And then of course, when the president took questions from reporters in the room is where things really started to go south. When asked directly about
the accusations of white genocide, the president then quickly turned to video, which, Kevin Liptak, I'm not sure we've ever seen a situation where
there were props like this in the Oval Office. They dimmed the lights and then aired that video that Zain just laid out and gave detail to, in
addition to newspaper clippings. Just walk us through what we just saw.
KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, and I think it's fair to call what happened there in ambush. The president really in that
remarkable moment, asking his aides to dim the lights in the room and play this video that he said backed up his baseless claims of white genocide in
South Africa.
But it was, I think, very notable to see how this meeting progressed over the course of, you know, the 45 minutes or so that it has now been
underway. It started very cordially and it seemed as if President Ramaphosa was very intent on not allowing it to devolve and sort of -- to the sort of
open contention that many had feared that would color this meeting. He talked about, you know, the golfers that he had in the room. He joked about
wishing that he had his own, playing to offer the president as sort of a reference to that Qatari plan that the U.S. has acquired.
But clearly, that moment when the president surprised everyone in the room with this video was deeply uncomfortable for the South African delegation.
You could see it on their faces and you could see it in their body language. And even afterwards when they attempted to explain to the
president that the man depicted in that video, Julius Malema, is not representative of the governing party in South Africa, that this is a
fringe viewpoint that the representatives who are here at the White House representing the government of South Africa totally disassociate themselves
from those points of view, the president really wasn't having any of it.
He was very much entrenched in what we should say is a fringe conspiracy theory that there is a genocide underway of white South Africans. And even
when he heard from people like the golfers in the room, like the white agriculture minister that Ramaphosa brought with him to this meeting, he
did not seem deterred from this idea that has been planted in his mind that there is persecution and genocide of these white South Africans.
And so, I think in a lot of ways this meeting has become highly contentious. But it was not on the part of Ramaphosa, it was not because he
was strenuously pushing back on some of these claims. It was because of this ambush that the president and his team had essentially set up for the
South Africans as they try and advance this theory that is clearly not based in any sort of reality.
ASHER: Larry, let me bring you in because, you know, I thought honestly that the South African president handled it as well as he could. I mean, he
started off at the beginning with a gift to Donald Trump, showing him South Africa's golf courses after that video was played and the issue of crime
against white South Africans was brought up. He said to President Trump, listen, we need you as a partner. We are relying on American technology to
help us tackle the issue of crime.
You have to remember that Cyril Ramaphosa was the chief negotiator under Nelson Mandela who helped bring apartheid to an end in South Africa. So,
this man has a lot of skills when it comes to diplomacy. Larry, walk us through that.
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Zain, Cyril Ramaphosa brought his best diplomatic self to this meeting, but nothing could have prepared him for
this multimedia ambush that President Trump laid out with video, with printed out news stories.
This was a laundry list of debunk -- this was a laundry list of debunked conspiracy theories. Some South Africans are telling me this is AfriForum
propaganda. AfriForum is a white Africana lobby group. That's considered a white nationalist organization by the Southern Poverty Law Center.
Everything -- almost everything that President Trump said in the Oval Office is not true, was inaccurate, has been repeatedly debunked.
I've been covering South Africa for 15 years. I know many South Africans. I've reported from farms. I've spoken to white and black farmers, and we
have looked at the data from the South African police and we have found no evidence of a white genocide. But President Trump said it directly to
President Ramaphosa, that you are seizing white farmers lands, and then many of these farmers are getting executed.
And he showed this video that's purported to show 1,000 farmers buried along a road with cars paying respects. And President Ramaphosa did not
recognize that video because he does not believe it happened in South Africa. There's no evidence of it. It's unlikely that 1,000 farmers could
have died without anybody noticing, and that's the point he's trying to make. President Ramaphosa says, we're not doing that, but President Trump
insists.
[13:20:00]
And then he brought John Steenhuisen. This is the agriculture minister of South Africa. A white man who has opposed -- his party has opposed -- the
DA has opposed the ANCs party of Ramaphosa for 30 years. They're now in a coalition government. And he pointed out to those videos that showed Julius
Malema singing that song, kill the boar, kill the farmer and former President Jacob Zuma, and he said, the reason why we're this coalition
government is to avoid those men getting into power. And he said, there's no white genocide. He's just come back from a large trade show with a lot
of white farmers in South Africa, but President Trump did not believe him.
I think the larger point President Ramaphosa made here is that if there was a white genocide that would not have brought these famous white South
Africans, an agriculture minister, two famous golfers, even a billionaire, the luxury magnate, Johann Rupert, who all supports the argument that he's
trying to make here, but none of it could have prepared him for what he's undergone in this White House confrontational meeting.
I expected it to be maybe bad, I did not expect it to be this bad. And I think it's going to be a tense meeting when they actually take away the
cameras and they actually meet face-to-face, because Elon Musk almost didn't come up because of all this other laundry list of grievances that
President Trump had prepared.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. This has been --
ASHER: No one expected the props.
GOLODRYGA: No. And we should note, this is a very long meeting. It is still ongoing. You're looking at live images of the two presidents still
speaking.
ASHER: Apparently, it's become a bit more civil over the last 10 minutes.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. No other videos have been played as of yet. We will bring you any further developments between yet another historic White House
meeting between President Trump and this with the South African president. Larry Madowo and our thanks to Kevin Liptak as well.
Thank you for watching "One World." "Amanpour" starts right now.
END
