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One World with Zain Asher
RFK Jr. Testifies about Trump's Health Care Agenda; RFK Jr.: Nobody Knows Exactly How Many Lives Saved by COVID Vaccine; RFK Jr.: Americans have Lost Faith in the CDC; RFK Jr. Grilled by Senators on Vaccine Policy; RFK Jr. Testifies on Handling of Public Health. Aired 11-12a ET
Aired September 04, 2025 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00]
SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): -- access to the COVID vaccine. Again, it surprises me that you think so highly of Operation Warp Speed when as an
attorney, you attempted to restrict access. Now, let me ask --
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: I'm happy -- I'm happy to explain why.
CASSIDY: I have I have 3 minutes and 30s left. It also surprises me because you have canceled or HHS did, but apparently under your direction, $500
million in contracts using the mRNA vaccine platform that was critical to Operation Warp Speed. Again, an accomplishment that I think President Trump
should get a Nobel Prize for.
You canceled 500 million contracts. Now I grew up in a middle-class family, so $500 million seems to cancel. It seems like an incredible waste of
money, but it also seems like a commentary upon what the president was attempting, what the president did in Operation Warp Speed, which is to
create a platform by which to create vaccines.
So, this just seems inconsistent that you would agree with me. The president deserves tremendous amount of credit for this.
KENNEDY JR.: Is this a question, Senator Cassidy, or is this a speech that you don't want me to answer?
CASSIDY: I ask --
KENNEDY JR.: -- Because I want to answer that question.
CASSIDY: Please, please. Yeah.
KENNEDY JR.: If it's a question.
CASSIDY: But be tight. Please.
KENNEDY JR.: First of all, the reason that Operation Warp Speed was genius is it did something nobody had ever been done. I don't think any president
but President Trump could do it. It got the vaccine to market. That was perfectly matched to the virus at that time, when it was badly needed,
because there was low natural immunity, and there were people getting very badly injured by COVID.
And then, but he was also -- it was also brought in therapeutics like hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin and protocols for treatments and all. And
there were no mandates --
CASSIDY: OK I have another question, so please about --
KENNEDY JR.: -- that's what I began litigating against President Biden's mandate now --
CASSIDY: I'm sorry let me go on because --
KENNEDY JR.: -- contracts.
CASSIDY: I have limited time, Mr. Secretary, I'm sorry you've called for and rightly so, that we should restrict participation in agencies for those
with conflict of interest. I would like to submit for the record evaluation of the conflict of interest of those who are on the ACIP and the vaccines
related biologic Products Advisory Board.
It was not 97 percent as alleged, rather, was 6.9 percent and it was 1.2 percent I think, for the other panel.
SEN. MIKE CRAPO (R-ID): Without objection.
CASSIDY: Now, I am concerned, though, because many of those whom you have nominated for the ACIP board --
CASSIDY: Excuse me -- can I have my time back?
KENNEDY JR.: Yes.
CASSIDY: What I am concerned about is that many of those whom you've nominated for ACIP have received revenue as serving as expert witnesses for
plaintiff's attorneys, suing vaccine makers. Now, one of my colleagues in another setting alleged that you see more interested in settlements than
science.
If we put people who are paid witnesses for vaccine -- people suing vaccines, that actually seems like a conflict of interest. Real quickly. Do
you agree with that?
KENNEDY JR.: No, I don't. It may be a bias, and that bias, if disclosed, is OK.
CASSIDY: -- witnesses --
KENNEDY JR.: It is not --
CASSIDY: Let me finish up. Let me finish up. You also told Senator Wyden at the outset that you didn't want to take vaccines away from people. And as I
conclude, I would like to say this, because of the conflicting recommendations made by about COVID. This is from Eric Erickson, good
conservative out of Atlanta, Georgia, occasionally gives me help.
My wife has stage four lung cancer. She is one of the people the COVID vaccine actually helps, thanks to the current deaths that HHS, CVS is
unable to get her vaccine. Secondly, an email from a physician friend of mine, hey, Bill, I'm not even sure what I'm asking you, but we're all
confused and concerned about who could get the COVID vaccine.
We are having our attorney try and render an opinion, but there's no firm guidance and concern about liability if vaccines are given to a patient
requested but not on the current CDC list. Pharmacists are requiring a prescription now, even for patients over 65 creating a huge headache. I
submit these for the record.
CRAPO: Without objection.
CASSIDY: I would say, effectively, we're denying people vaccine. I --
CRAPO: Senator Cantwell.
CASSIDY: I --
SEN. MARIA CANTWELL (D-WA): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, following up on that same line as Senator Cassidy, because that's exactly you know, I represent
one of the most science-based states in the country, that is percentage of scientists per capita. And at your confirmation hearing, we asked about
this, whether you would follow science.
You've made a statement here today in your testimony that you would follow science, and yet you're not following science, and that's what Senator
Cassidy's question was, so simple, yes or no answer. Do you think the president deserves to get a prize for warp speed in the mRNA technology
that saved so many lives. And you won't answer that question.
KENNEDY JR.: I answered it.
CANTWELL: No, you're saying that there are problems with what was interpreted. You could say yes --
KENNEDY JR.: -- deserves Nobel Prize, but our mRNA vaccines that we're working on. The ones that we canceled, which are for upper respiratory
infections alone, are those --
CANTWELL: You canceled $500 million of research because the mRNA technology, is about continuing the research to be ready for the next flu,
influenza, the next pandemic, and you have to do --
KENNEDY JR.: I'm happy to have a detailed discussion with you. You're so wrong --
CANTWELL: You're interrupting me and sir, you're a charlatan. That's what you are. You're the ones who conflate chronic disease with the need for
vaccines. The history on vaccines is very clear. This is the 20th century. That's how many people had vaccines and had illnesses.
This is the 21st century. This is the decrease 99 percent down to 100 percent this is what was delivered with vaccines. And you don't want to
support that.
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You don't want to support that evidence. So, yes, the governors of the West, Washington, Oregon and California will take up the efficacy of
science. Yes, the University of Washington will deliver the science that America will depend on, because you don't want to depend on it.
And his own surgeon general of the Trump Administration said over 2 million lives were saved because the mRNA technology. And you don't want to
continue that. You don't want to continue that technology. So what country is going to now take up that technology lead?
What country is going to do that, leaving us more vulnerable to some other country, keeping the advantage on having the best technology. So, I'm
telling you, I represent a state that's about technology. I have two other quick questions for you --
KENNEDY JR.: -- questions or statements, because I can answer that question if it's actually a question.
CANTWELL: Do you believe in having the ACA and the support for the ACA that is about to expire? Do you believe in doing something about that?
KENNEDY JR.: In terms of the advance of the enhanced premium tax credits?
CANTWELL: Yes.
KENNEDY JR.: The Democrats had two chances to make them permanent, and they didn't, and they didn't for a reason.
CANTWELL: We're the ones who delivered it.
KENNEDY JR.: They didn't for a reason --
CANTWELL: So, do you want to do something about this? Yes --
KENNEDY JR.: I want to fix the system, and that's what we're doing, fixing systematically to make premiums lower. That's what President Trump --
CANTWELL: Do you think the women on the steps of the capital were a hoax yesterday?
KENNEDY JR.: I don't know about any woman on the steps that --
CANTWELL: The women you were talking about Epstein. Do you think they were a hoax yesterday?
KENNEDY JR.: Do I think they were.
CANTWELL: Do you think they were perpetrating a hoax yesterday?
KENNEDY JR.: Perpetuating a hoax?
CANTWELL: Yeah.
KENNEDY JR.: I have no idea what they were saying. That's the first I'm hearing about it.
CANTWELL: You're first that you're hearing about the women on the Capitol steps saying that they believe that the Epstein information should be made
public. That's the first you're hearing about it.
What I'm saying is you are perpetrating hoaxes. You as the secretary of health, so you're undermining the whole health care delivery system, and
you keep trying to point to chronic disease, but you're not putting solutions on the table to cover more Americans, and you're taking away the
science and technology that has made us the leader, that has saved.
According to the first Trump Administration Surgeon General, millions of lives, and you don't want to keep that going. So no, I don't support your
continued efforts as secretary, and I definitely think that our colleagues need to rally around science. If you want the Northwest edges to continue
to lead on all innovation and all healthy people.
OK, we'll do that, but it's a sad statement for the rest of America and America's leadership on technology. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CRAPO: Thank you, Senator Warner.
SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Mr. Secretary, I agree with a lot of my college statement. I actually hoped I didn't support you. I thought taking on
chronic illnesses was going to be important. About two kids, as we discussed when you met that have chronic illnesses. I'm not sure that the
focus on red dye and seed oils, are going to fully solve that problem.
Of course, they won't. I would say this, that seems where your emphasis is. I want to go back to just again some basic facts. Do you accept the fact
that a million Americans died from COVID?
KENNEDY JR.: I don't know how many died.
WARNER: You're the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You don't have any idea how many Americans died from COVID?
KENNEDY JR.: I don't think anybody knows, because there was so much data chaos coming out of the CDC -- and these are models --
WARNER: -- the answer of how many Americans from COVID. This is the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Do you think the vaccine did
anything to prevent additional deaths?
KENNEDY JR.: Again, I would like to see the data and talk about the data --
WARNER: You had this job for eight months, and you don't know the data about whether the vaccine --
KENNEDY JR.: -- the problem is that they didn't have the data. If the data by the Biden Administration absolutely does --
WARNER: -- who is politicizing? You're saying the Biden Administration politicized all the data. Go back to Cantwell --
KENNEDY JR.: They fired --
WARNER: -- Trump, Surgeon General.
KENNEDY JR.: They fired Dr -- They fired all the people who questioned the orthodoxy. They fired Dr --
WARNER: Mr. Chairman, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, doesn't no matter how many Americans died from COVID. Let them know if that vaccine
helped prevent any deaths, and you are sitting as Secretary of Health and Human Services, how can you be that ignorant, like you know, I remember
when we went to the hearing with you, I asked you about community health centers.
You didn't know what role they play. I've been visiting community. I'm glad you got to one. Think in April.
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I tell you what I hear on community health centers they are terrified, with all due respect to my good friend, the chairman of the big awful bill,
because they are going to lose health care across the board. They already live in food deserts. They can't get to a nutritionist because Medicaid
doesn't do enough reimbursement.
If you're going to want Americans to get healthier? Should they have access to nutrition? Should they have access to good science about healthy food?
KENNEDY JR.: Absolutely.
WARNER: Well, then, how is that going to happen with the Medicaid cuts that are taking place?
KENNEDY JR.: There are no cuts to Medicaid.
WARNER: So that is an absurd. There is not a single so my Republican colleagues, but there is not a single study that does not I can tell you, I
was in Franklin, Virginia, a couple days ago, the rural hospital is going to close. The hospital system was so afraid they wouldn't even let me have
the meeting there.
But that rural hospital is going to close, and they are looking for where those folks are going to go, I mean, you're supposed to be doing health
care policy, not being the doctor in residence for all of America. I hope I can say I'm still going to trust my doctor rather than your health advice.
And obviously, Tom Cotton is going to who knows who's going to trust. But, let me go back to policy for a couple so maybe we can lower the temperature
a little bit. I got a bipartisan bill that would be a systemic fix, not a vote buying mechanism when Medicaid is getting cut.
What was put in on the rural hospitals, one of the things we could do, Mr. Secretary, is make sure that the folks who work in rural hospitals get an
80 percent reimbursement of what folks get in more urban centers. Would you support that legislation?
KENNEDY JR.: Are you talking about the area wage index?
WARNER: I'm talking about the area -- wage index, and moving that up to 80 percent so there is the ability to get rural providers.
KENNEDY JR.: President Trump supports that, and we support --
WARNER: -- support -- So, you will work with us to get that passed.
KENNEDY JR.: Yes --
WARNER: That will increase costs on both Medicaid and Medicare. So, you are committed to that. I appreciate that. What about Senator Wyden, and I've
got a bill, because across America, what about hospitals are shutting down on their OBGYN services try to have a baby.
I don't know about all my friend states, but in Southside Virginia, can't find a hospital. Will you work with us to make sure that before OBGYN
surfaces are taken out of a rural hospital, there has to be a process and procedure?
KENNEDY JR.: I'm happy to work with you on that senator, meet with you and see if we can work with you on it. I don't know exactly what the issue is.
WARNER: What the -- again, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, who has said he doesn't know how many people died from COVID, doesn't know what
the vaccines save lives, doesn't understand -- rural America because they can't afford it, and with the cuts that are coming up, it's going to be
exponentially worse.
I would invite you, sir, to come with me to a community health center in Virginia and hear what is on people's mind. They want to get healthier.
Absolutely. Count me in. But they also don't want their basic health care removed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CRAPO: Senator Lankford.
SEN. JAMES LANKFORD (R-OK): Mr. Chairman, thank you, Secretary, good to see you again. As I traveled around Oklahoma during August, it was great to be
able to be home. I had several folks that contacted me, and we had some great meetings with some rural hospitals as well.
They're looking forward to the $50 billion for the one big, beautiful bill that is targeting towards rural hospitals, starting with $10 billion next
year. I know you're quickly getting all the instructions out on that. We know that's in process. It was good to be able to visit with him, to be
able to talk about that.
They're very pleased. Thanks for the work you're doing on that. Also met with some of our groups that do incredible medical research on this. I know
the NIH grants were held for a while, and being studied, those have been released, and grateful to be able to see that, because there's some amazing
medical researches happening, including some longitudinal studies.
They need those dollars released. So, I appreciate you all getting those released out there. I did hear from a lot of our folks, and I want to talk
about one of these issues. From a lot of our hospitals, they immediately raised the issue of Medicare advantage plans and how they're withholding
payments, they're delaying payments back to hospitals, and a problem that that's been for rural hospitals.
I know you all are working on that as well. We want to work with you on that, but you and I have spoken on the second issue on that, and it's the
pharmacy benefit managers. During the confirmation process, it was interesting when you and I met in my office, you said every single senator
brought up PBMs to you, and you made the statement during the confirmation process.
This is an area that President Trump wants to take on, is the pharmacy benefit managers. This is unfinished business in this committee, but I
wanted to just know what is HHS doing at this point on the PBM issue in particular, to make sure we're not driving out rural pharmacies and what we
can do to be able to make sure that's fair.
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KENNEDY JR.: Yeah. I mean, it's a priority for the president. He talks to me about it, I would say, at least once a week, sometimes at 11 o'clock at
night and we are -- we've met with the PBMs, and we are in talks with them. We're also in MFN talks with the pharmaceutical companies, who are also
very interested in reducing the cut and getting transparency among the PBMs.
And the PBMs have committed to us to transparency, to some protocol that will guarantee transparency. And then the part of the MFN negotiations
would include direct to consumer marketing, which would eliminate the middleman. So, I think we're doing a lot on PBMs.
LANKFORD: OK, that'd be very helpful to be able to see be very helpful for consumers across the country on this, you and I spoke as well, and you've
made public statements on this, and the FDA Commission has made public statements on the issue of reviewing the safety issues of Mifepristone.
Your comments early on were every drug needs to be treated the same, needs to look at the same and not have political biases and how things are
actually examined. There were a lot of changes on the allocation of Mifepristone for elective abortions under the Biden Administration.
It's now open to anyone without a prescription on it. You'll have to go through a doctor on it. There are all kinds of issues that are happening
now on it. So, the question was, you said that there would be a review on that just to be able to look at it. Make sure we're following all safety
protocols. Do you know what timing on that review?
KENNEDY JR.: I can't give you the exact timing. I talked to Marty Makary about it yesterday, and he said it is progressing a pace. We're getting
data, and all the time new data that we're reviewing. And we know that during the Biden Administration, they actually twisted the data to bury one
of the safety signals with a very high safety signal around 11 percent.
So, we're going to make sure that that doesn't happen anymore. We're producing on science and gold standard science on that. I'll keep you
abreast of where we are.
LANKFORD: Thank you. Just go where the science leads on that during the Biden Administration, the Title 10 regulation that requires Title 10 family
planning programs recipients to physically and financially separate from abortion activities their Title 10 activities and eliminate them promoting
or providing abortion with those funds that was flipped from the original Trump rule that was done on the under the first presidency.
During a confirmation you had committed. To go back and look at that again and to be able to see. My question is, do you know the timeline for agency
action for when that rule on title 10 and the separation payments rule will be either reviewed or will actually be reinstated to the original Trump
rule under his first president.
KENNEDY JR.: I don't know when, if they're -- I just don't know the answer your question, why they're actually revealing the rule right now. I can
tell you that the NGOs that have that issue that refused to separate their payments streams and separate their operations are not getting funded.
LANKFORD: OK. Well, that was an issue under the law when it first came out, to be able to keep those things separate on it. So, look forward to that.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CRAPO: Thank you, Senator Hassan.
SEN. MAGGIE HASSAN (D-NH): Thank you, Mr. Chairman and good morning, Secretary Kennedy, just before I ask a question, I did want to note, in
response to the secretary's statement, that the Trump Administration wants to lower the cost of health insurance that across the country right now,
the median increase for commercial insurers that we're seeing this fall is 18 percent just as families are struggling to make ends meet.
Now I want to follow up on a line of questioning that Senator Cassidy began, Mr. Secretary, President Trump said that the COVID-19 vaccine,
produced by Operation Warp Speed was, and these are the president's words, a monumental national achievement. Although I have strongly opposed many of
President Trump's actions.
I agree with him that Operation Warp Speed in 2020 was a monumental achievement. Unfortunately, you are undermining one of the president's
biggest achievements, which, as the president said, saved millions of American lives. You even went as far as to call President Trump weak for
this life saving accomplishment.
Last year, you tweeted that President Trump has a weakness for swamp creatures, and that Operation Warp Speed was among. Here's your quote
again, the most devastating impact of President Trump's weakness.
[11:20:00]
So, Mr. Secretary, was Operation Warp Speed a monumental national achievement, as President Trump said.
KENNEDY JR.: For the reason that I already said, and I assume you won't let me repeat, but I'm happy to if you want, yes, it was.
HASSAN: Good. Assuming it is a monumental achievement. You've said it was, is it true that, as President Trump has said, he saved millions of American
lives with the COVID-19 vaccine? Because you've just expressed great confusion about that to Senator Warner?
KENNEDY JR.: The only confusion I expressed is exactly how many lives were saved. I don't think anybody knows that, because the data chaos.
HASSAN: So multiple studies have shown that the vaccine reduced infections and severe diseases and saved at least 3 million lives in the United States
and millions more abroad in the first two years of the pandemic.
KENNEDY JR.: Those are -- modeling studies.
HASSAN: No, I will also note, just as you've been talking about data and concern about it, the process for COVID vaccine approval was public. It was
live streamed, and it was out in the open. Manufacturers and experts have publicly submitted data analysis, and when the FDA has asked for more,
they've submitted more.
They've done that for years, and the evidence is clear and supports what President Trump has said, the vaccine works and it has saved millions of
lives. Your own process, on the other hand, has not been transparent. You repeatedly choose to ignore data because it doesn't match your preconceived
notions and lives.
So, you have said that the vaccine did save lives. You've said it was a monumental achievement, and given that, if you agree with President Trump
that the vaccine saved millions of lives, why have you acted behind closed doors to overrule scientists and limit the freedom of parents to choose the
COVID vaccine for their children? Why have you done that?
KENNEDY JR.: For the COVID vaccine, I was removed by FDA because there was the industry --
HASSAN: No, it was behind closed doors and scientists who said they wanted to brief you on the science, scientists who wanted to understand why the
FDA? Why you unilaterally changed the parameters for giving vaccines, making it possible now to Senator Cassidy's colleagues points that they're
going to have to go off label.
KENNEDY JR.: This is crazy to --
HASSAN: -- prescribe a vaccine for children. I'm not making things. Do you know how the FDA approval process works, and what an -- Do you know what an
off label --
KENNEDY JR.: I know exactly how it works. I know exactly how it --
HASSAN: So why behind closed doors.
KENNEDY JR.: It's not behind closed doors. The industry makes the studies, and they could not provide a study that said that it is effective for
healthy kids.
HASSAN: When have you produced the data that you relied on and that this FDA relied on to change those parameters. You did it behind -- now, parents
who decide that they do want their children down.
KENNEDY JR.: -- making stuff up, senator.
HASSAN: I'm not making stuff up.
KENNEDY JR.: You are just making stuff up.
HASSAN: You know, sometimes when you make an accusation, it's kind of a confession, Mr. Kennedy. So, let's just -- here's what's going to happen to
Senator Warner's point, to the parents who are concerned all around the country, to people who want to get the COVID vaccine this fall, even if
they're under 65 because the boosters have worked, there's been much less serious disease.
People do not have the same level of threat and risk from COVID that they used to because of these vaccines. People who want to exercise their
freedom of choice are being denied that --
KENNEDY JR.: Everybody --
HASSAN: Because you are citing data that you won't produce to the public. You're rejecting --
KENNEDY JR.: You're making things up to scare people, and it's a lie --
HASSAN: -- with respect, I do not think I'm the one making -- Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
KENNEDY JR.: You're -- senator.
CRAPO: Senator Barrasso.
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO (R-WY): Thanks, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Secretary, thanks for being with us today. I believe one of President Trump's greatest
achievements was his bold and successful actions on COVID. When faced with a global pandemic, he didn't back down. He was determined to find a cure,
and through Operation Warp Speed, the vaccine was developed and distributed quickly, safely, effectively.
And I believe it saved many, many lives. I think it's a model of American ingenuity and public private partnership. But this wasn't the first time an
American President acted boldly to address disease and vaccines. There's a great book that's out. It's a prize-winning book called "The Fate of the
Day" by Rick Atkinson, and he talks about the courageous efforts by George Washington during the Revolutionary War.
George Washington reversed his opposition to the smallpox vaccine, and he ordered that all the soldiers be vaccinated.
[11:25:00]
It was among the most consequential decisions Washington would ever make. By protecting his troops from smallpox, Washington preserved the
Continental Army, which allowed our nation to continue to fight for our independence. And like President Trump, I believe President Washington
acted decisively to protect Americans lives at a time of great national peril.
So, over the last 50 years, vaccines are estimated to have saved 154 million lives worldwide. I support vaccines. I'm a doctor, vaccines work.
Secretary Kennedy, in your confirmation hearings, you promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines. Since then, I've grown deeply
concerned.
The public has seen measles outbreaks leadership of the National Institute of Health questioning the use of mRNA vaccines, the recently confirmed
Director of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, fired Americans don't know who to rely on. Recent polls that 89 percent of voters, 81
percent of Trump voters, agree vaccine recommendations should come from trained physicians, scientists, public health experts.
So, they believe Senator Marshall, Senator Cassidy. They believe me when it comes to vaccines. If we're going to make America healthy again, we can't
allow public health to be undermined. So, could you explain what steps you're going to be taking to ensure vaccine guidance is clear, evidence
based and trustworthy?
KENNEDY JR.: We're going to make it clear, evidence based and trustworthy for the first time in history, for most right now, you know, when I was a
kid, I got three vaccines. I was fully compliant. Today's children have to get between 69 and 92 vaccines in order to be fully compliant between
maternity and 18 years.
Only one of those 19 vaccines, 92 doses, only one of those vaccines that have been tested against an inert placebo. And what we're doing now is any
new vaccine that before it's approved and licensed, will have to show demonstrate safety against the -- behind we're going to go back and do
observational studies on the existing vaccines to see if they're linked to any of these chronic disease epidemics.
So that people can understand the risk profile of those products and make good assessments for their own health.
BARRASSO: So, in two weeks, vaccine experts at the CDC are going to meet to discuss childhood vaccine recommendations. Parents and physicians depend
upon this guidance to make decisions and to keep kids safe. And as I said, I support vaccines. I've been hearing from many of my medical colleagues,
people I've known from medical school residency and when I practice medicine in Wyoming, and there are real concerns that safe, proven
vaccines, like measles, like Hepatitis B and others, could be in jeopardy.
And that would put Americans at risk and reverse decades of progress, as we've seen over the last four years, the previous administration, four
years when recommendations became politicized or were swayed by bias, that the public trust can be lost. So what safeguards are in place to ensure
decisions are based solely on science and not politics? And how are you going to make sure doctors and parents can count on CDC guidance?
KENNEDY JR.: I mean, Senator, I would point this out. Right now, there's only 10 percent of children are complying with the CDC recommendation on
COVID boosters, only 15 percent of health care workers. Americans have lost faith in CDC, and we need to restore that faith, and we're going to do that
by telling the truth, and not through propaganda, by making them understand that everything that we say is true.
We're going to tell them what we know, we're going to tell them what we don't know, and we're going to tell them what we're researching and how
we're doing it. We're going to be transparent. It's the only way to restore trust in the agency by making it trustworthy.
BARRASSO: Yeah, thank you. Finally, with chronic diseases like you, I'm committed to addressing our nation's growing rate of chronic diseases. I
think if we're going to make America healthy again, we need to support rural primary care providers that play a role as a rural physician.
I want to make sure we can prevent and manage chronic diseases in their communities, and I ask for you to continue to work with us, specifically
with regard to rural health.
KENNEDY JR.: Thank you, Congressman.
CRAPO: Senator Daines.
SEN. STEVE DAINES (R-MT): Chairman Crapo, thank you. Secretary Kennedy, welcome. It's good to see you here again. I want to begin my time by
talking about the issue of federal deregulation of chemical abortion drugs since Mifepristone was approved in 2000, 25 years ago.
[11:30:00]
The FDA has steadily stripped away safeguards related to this drug, no longer requiring a doctor's prescription, no follow up visits, no adverse
event reporting and now allowing it to be sent through the mail.
Earlier this year, there was a new study that analyzed 865,000 real world insurance claims, and it found that nearly a 11 percent of women
experienced a serious adverse event within 45 days of taking Mifepristone.
To put that in perspective, that is 22 times higher than the FDA's long- standing estimate of less than 0.5 percent while these findings alone are shocking, my conversations with those in the medical profession, credible
medical professionals lead me to believe that even this study may indeed under represent the scale of the problem.
For years, we've heard the misleading and frankly, very harmful lie that's being sold to women that this drug is, and I quote, safe as Tylenol. These
lies, sadly, have real world consequences. Just last year, two women died as a result of taking chemical abortion pills because they were able to
access them without appropriate medical oversight.
And by the way, that's all allowed by the FDA, Mr. Secretary, I am grateful that you and FDA Commissioner Makary have already begun the process of
reviewing this new data on the safety of Mifepristone, and we talked about this during your confirmation hearing.
My question is, could you provide any updates on the status and the scope of that review and whether the FDA intends to replicate studies like the
one that I referenced.
KENNEDY JR.: I think those are -- I don't know if they're going to do an insurance claim study. That's one way to do it. I don't know exactly
whether they're doing epidemiological studies or observational studies. I don't know exactly what they're doing, but I know I talked to Marty Makary
about it yesterday, and he said those studies are progressing and that they're ongoing. So, I will keep your office informed at every stage.
DAINES: Thank you. And I've had a really constructive conversation with the FDA Commissioner as well, Makary. And I mean, here's a very smart, data
focused, sincere type of leader. And we had a really good conversation. I want to encourage those conversations with you, Mr. Secretary.
And that we -- there's a follow up here to make sure that the data that we now have exposed will be studied by the FDA and the appropriate actions
considered. Giving the legitimate safety concerns surrounding Mifepristone and your actions to roll back other COVID emergency measures.
Will you repeal the COVID era telemedicine allowance, given that we're repealing these COVID era regulations and emergency measures, would you
repeal the COVID era telemedicine allowance for chemical abortion drugs and restore the requirement for an in-person doctor visit.
KENNEDY JR.: Senator, I need to get back to you on that. I don't know if the White House has yet taken a position on that. We will get back to you
this week.
DAINES: OK, all right, thank you. I want to close with Montana question. Earlier this week, the state of Montana submitted a Medicaid demonstration
waiver application CMS to strengthen the state's Medicaid expansion program. This waiver seeks to require community engagement and enhance cost
sharing for working age, able bodied adults enrolled in the program.
I applaud our Governor Gianforte and Director Brereton for their proactive leadership in this space. My question is, Mr. Secretary, could you commit
the CMS will work quickly in its consideration of Montana's waiver application?
KENNEDY JR.: Absolutely, it sounds like the kind of waiver that we're looking for.
DAINES: OK, thank you, Mr. Secretary.
CRAPO: Thank you. Senator Johnson.
SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Secretary Kennedy, first of all, thank you for your willingness to serve and for putting up with
this abuse.
[11:35:00]
Five minutes is even close to refuted all the falsehoods that have been confidently spewed during this hearing. We'll talk about real data here.
OK, well, first of all, thank you for breaking log jam of information of HHS, my committee has got now over 8 million pages of information.
Just in the first tranche by the way, what we discovered is the CDC. Somebody in the federal health agencies, interagency communication hid the
signal. They admitted there was a signal on myocarditis, and they hid it. They didn't warn the public. They didn't warn doctors. So that's just one
instance of corruption and lies told by the CDC.
We've got a lot of others we'll be rolling out. OK, so we held our first hearing in permanent subcommittee investigation on that hiding of the
signal of myocarditis. We've heard a lot of studies. OK, as I've looked into science, it's been thoroughly corrupted. Here's data, and I'd like to
enter this sheet into the record.
I've been publishing this chart for, you know, since really early 2021 when I'm on, for example, talk radio shows and they talk about this, they get
the platform to they were, you know, because all the censorship during the Biden Administration. Here's the facts. The Vader system that was touted in
October of 2020 this great safety surveillance system on COVID.
Few months later, when they didn't like the results, they started -- their own system. But VAERS shows that there have been 38,742 deaths reported on
VAERS worldwide, associated Co-vaccine. 38,742, 9252 of those deaths occurred on the day of vaccination, within one or two days.
Again, I agree with you. Nobody knows how many COVID deaths were because the information was completely corrupted. Nobody knows how many lives were
saved by -- again, I think most people OK. If you're vulnerable, raise your antibodies, reverse severity, fine.
There's not any good study on that. There's just information out there, just claims being made. This is hard evidence, and certainly what I've been
advocating for are the vacs, the injection injured, the childhood vaccine injured. We're going to be holding a hearing next Tuesday on a study done
by a high integrity health care facility that shows that actually looked at vaccinated versus unvaccinated.
Very high-quality study. I'm not going to steal the thunder of -- who's going to be testifying on this. I think you're aware of the study that
shows the vaccinated population far more prone to chronic illness than people completely unexposed to vaccines. That is just one example of how
science has been corrupted by that, by the way the study was conducted.
And when they conducted this, oh no, no matter what the results are, we're going to release this. They got the results in 2000 it is yet to be
released. We're going to enter that in the record on Tuesday. Do you want to just talk about what you've witnessed in terms of the capture of the
agencies that you're now in charge of, the corruption of science.
Which I believe you just said, that is almost your number one goal, right, is try to bring integrity and credibility back to science which has been
corrupted by the people who pay for it, by federal health agencies, being captured by pharmaceutical industries, by big pharma, by big food.
Just I want to give you, I'm sorry, just the last minute to, first of all, defend yourself, but talk about the corruption of science that you're
having to deal with and trying to correct.
KENNEDY JR.: Yeah. I mean, I'll just tell you one example, and I could sit here and give you thousands. In 2002 -- did an internal study of Atlanta,
Fulton County, Georgia children, and looked at children who got the MLR vaccine on time, and compared those to kids who got them later.
So, in other words, kids who got them before 36 months and kids who got them afterward. The data from that study showed that black boys who got the
vaccine on time had a 260 percent greater chance of getting an autism diagnosis than children who waited.
The chief scientist on that Dr. William Thompson, the senior vaccine safety science at CDC, was ordered to come into a room with four other co-authors
by his boss, Frank DeStefano, who is the Head of the Immunization Safety Press, and ordered to destroy that data and then they published it without
that fact.
[11:40:00]
So, you know that story, I know that story. And you know of hundreds of stories like that. It happens all the time. We are being lied to by these
agencies, and we're going to change that right now.
JOHNSON: -- mandate you're going to be out of business. I just want to enter that director as well.
CRAPO: Without objection. The committee will take a five-minute quick break here, just to allow just a moment of reset here, and then we'll start right
back up again in about five minutes.
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST, ONE WORLD: All right. Hello, everyone. Live from New York. I am Bianna Golodryga. You are watching "One World". And we
have been listening to U.S. Senators asking some really tough questions to Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
The hearing is taking a five-minute break now, so let's examine what we've heard thus far, as expected, this hearing has been combative, with one
Democratic Senator, Maria Cantwell from Washington, calling him a charlatan for his vaccine skepticism and the turmoil he's caused at the Centers for
Disease Control.
Kennedy defended the firings at the CDC, calling them absolutely necessary, citing the procedure set in place to protect the public during the COVID
pandemic. Dr. George Benjamin has been listening to all of this and is with us now. He's a long-time Executive Director of the American Public Health
Association.
Dr. Benjamin, thank you so much for taking the time fascinating to hear some really tough questions, not just from Democrats on the panel there in
the committee, but also from Republicans as well, two of them, notably physicians, Senator Cassidy and Senator Barrasso, a lot of focus
specifically on Senator Cassidy, whose vote was crucial in RFK Jr. being confirmed as HHS Secretary.
And when the issue came specifically to vaccines and what he had promised to do during his confirmation hearings, and what we've seen thus far during
his tenure. We heard Senator Cassidy say we are denying people vaccines. What stood out to you thus far, and what do you make of RFK Jr.'s words?
DR. GEORGE BENJAMIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF AMERICAN PUBLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION: Yeah. Thank you very much for having me today. You know the
real challenge here the course the secretary, again, has demonstrated that he's unprepared. He did not have the facts for many of the questions he was
asked, we know that his tenure has been chaotic and he was interesting.
He -- every one time someone challenged him, he blamed them. He blamed members of Congress who have been working to improve the health of
Americans for years. He blamed them for not doing that. He dodged questions about his terrible record. Yes, he absolutely has been in place an enormous
number of things that has resulted in the denial of vaccines to people, not just COVID vaccines, but he's totally taken apart the vaccine system.
And as you saw, he was challenged by members of Congress today, and he really didn't have any good answers.
GOLODRYGA: Except he was very defiant and backed up every single action he's taken thus far. I do want to bring in Meg Tirrell as well. Let's just
go through a list of everything that's transpired at HHS in his relatively short tenure thus far, just about a few months now.
He promised during his confirmation that he wouldn't restrict access to vaccines. Now you have Republican senators accusing him of doing just that.
He's dismantled advisory panels, restricted COVID vaccines, canceled mRNA contracts, removed the CDC Director, who actually just today has an op-ed
out herself in "The Wall Street Journal", talking about her concern about the future of health care in this country, and at the CDC.
Talk about this moment right now, Meg. And some of the serious concerns now among health care experts as to where things stand.
MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: One of the remarkable things about the CDC Director situation is that she was only in that job for 29 days.
She was an appointee of President Trump, and also supported by Secretary Kennedy, who heaped praise on her as she was going through the confirmation
process and as she was confirmed.
So, she was only in that job for a few weeks, and in her op-ed, published this morning in "The Wall Street Journal", she said that she was told to
pre approve the recommendations of a vaccine advisory panel, newly filled with people who have publicly expressed anti vaccine rhetoric.
Now, Secretary Kennedy was asked about that op-ed this morning and asked essentially if she was lying if he disagreed with what she said, and he
said that she was --
GOLODRYGA: Meg, I'm just going to ask you -- I'm just going to interrupt. I'm sorry. We're going to go back to the hearing. It has resumed. We'll be
right back with you after though.
[11:45:00]
SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D-RI): Never justify that persistently pays Rhode Island providers less than neighboring Massachusetts and Connecticut
providers, a difference of 23 and 26 percent in our regional health care market. Rhode Island's health care system is bleeding out because we aren't
paid, what neighboring hospitals and doctors are paid.
And the one act that CMS took on this issue years ago was to make it worse. I raised that with you. Then I've raised it since with Dr. Oz. I've raised
it with CMMI Director Sutton. I would like to get action from CMS on that. One partial avenue of relief for Rhode Island is the ahead program.
Rhode Island is a willing voluntary participant in the ahead program. Coming behind Rhode Island is Connecticut. What remains to be seen is
whether the payment rates agreed to for Rhode Island will suffer the same discriminatory discount with respect to the ahead rates for Connecticut, as
Connecticut comes through.
I've been able to get no assurances from CMS that they care one whit about this payment differential, or that they see ahead as a means of resolving
this injustice. Mr. Kennedy, our health care system is teetering as a result of this. This is not a casual matter, and I would really like to see
you and Dr. Oz and Mr. Dutton, put your attention onto this Rhode Island problem.
There is no conceivable justification for paying a hospital in Fall River 23 percent more than Rhode Island hospital when Rhode Island hospital
provides more and better services, as recognized by the Secret Service, which will take an injured president from Martha's Vineyard to the Rhode
Island Hospital Trauma Center flying right over St. Anne's Hospital in Fall River yet Fall River gets paid more.
It makes no sense, and it has to be resolved. The other problem that I mentioned to you is that I'm now in my fourth round of CMMI Directors. It's
bloody Groundhog Day trying to get something done about how end of life patients, are treated. I'm offering Rhode Island as a willing example of
how we can do it better.
It is idiotic and cruel to force a family to put their dying loved one through three days and two nights of a hospital before they can put him in
a nursing home. It is equally ridiculous to not allow palliative and curative care to happen together. Providing home care when someone is
dying, even if they can still get out of the house or into the yard, is a basic thing to ask.
And to have respite care be that somebody comes to the house instead of taking a dying family member to a hospital that's not even respite, every
single one, Mr. Kennedy, of these waivers has been granted in the past by CMMS and other circumstances. All I want is for somebody to come and work
out how we do this in Rhode Island.
What is our patient base that we'll do this in? How we put the waivers together? To quote your CMS Director, Mr. Oz, he said, as we discussed in
your office, we must reexamine how end of life care is addressed in this country, I'm offering Rhode Island as an example of how to make it better.
I hope you will concede that right now it is not good.
KENNEDY JR.: So, Senator --
WHITEHOUSE: I need you to respond to me. You guys know where to find me. I'm up in the Hart building.
KENNEDY JR.: Yeah.
WHITEHOUSE: I've reached out. We've tried for meetings and the progress in all three of those areas, fixing the payment gap, getting ahead balanced
regionally, and following through on our desire to do good things, improving end of life care with waivers you guys have already granted has
gotten me so far, no place.
And forgive my impatience. A lot of it predates you. I put a hold on Biden nominees because I was getting jerked around by your bureaucracy. I'd like
it to end and get some progress.
KENNEDY JR.: Yeah, you know, Senator, you raised this during my confirmation hearing, and I said to you then, and you know, you were very
civil. You raised something that makes a lot of sense to the extent we have the power to fix it. CMS, I'd like to do it. We've had the same kind of
complaints from Vermont.
And I said to you that time, call me and let's come talk about this. You have my cell phone.
[11:50:00]
You can call me anytime. I've never heard from you in seven months, call me up. I'd love to meet with you. I'll get Oz in the meeting. And you know
what you're saying, particularly about at the end of life, it may be something we can do something about. You know, I want to help. And you
know, let me know.
WHITEHOUSE: We'll try forgive my frustration. You've got 30,000 employees that could have reached out to me. They know where I live.
CRAPO: Yes. Senator Cortez Masto.
SEN. CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO (D-NV): Secretary Kennedy, thank you for being here. In May, you said, and I quote, I stand with President Trump to say,
no more middlemen, no more foreign freeloaders, no more skyrocketing drug prices were putting American patients first and taking on big pharma to
make America healthy again.
Yet, your record tells a different story. In July, Republicans handed Big Pharma a massive win their big, beautiful bill that they just passed,
shields billion-dollar drugs like Keytruda, the world's top selling cancer drug from Medicare negotiation. Keytruda has been on the market since 2014
it pulled in nearly $18 billion last year in the United States alone.
It costs patients up to $175,000 a year, draining Medicare of billions and forcing families into crushing debt or to forgo lifesaving care, and yet
you support the big, beautiful bill. So, despite the hype with executive orders and Washington Republicans only drug pricing law days relief for
Medicare patients relying on high-cost cancer drugs.
Meanwhile, Democrats finally have allowed Medicare to negotiate drug prices. I will say that Keytruda, along with Opdivo and Darzalex, the three
top selling cancer drugs, were widely expected to be selected for Part B negotiation in 2026 for 2028 implementation. They are now, because of the
actions of this administration, exempt from negotiation for at least several additional years, if not permanently.
So, my question to you, Mr. Secretary, is, how do you justify claiming to take on Big Pharma while supporting a bill that shields drugs like Keytruda
and other cancer drugs for Medicare negotiation, costing seniors and taxpayers billions and risking the lives of cancer patients who cannot
afford their necessary medication?
KENNEDY JR.: Yeah, senator, I appreciate the question, the Medicare negotiate drug negotiations in the IRA were very well intentioned, but they
were poorly structured. And what we found is that there are actually the negotiations that have occurred actually have ended up raising the cost for
Medicare. We are right now in --
MASTO: The CBO has not agreed to that the CBO -- the CBO, and independent agencies that validate the costs are wrong.
KENNEDY JR.: That is what's -- that is, CMS data --
MASTO: OK, so let's just focus on the cancer drugs. Why aren't we negotiating those -- down for families? Why does the bill exempt those?
KENNEDY JR.: It's part of the MFN negotiations. I'm not sure that provision in the bill of one beautiful bill, but --
MASTO: You're not sure of the provision, the negotiation provision, have exemption -- Your agency is responsible for that negotiation, and you don't
know about it.
KENNEDY JR.: I know that we're negotiating in the MFN --
MASTO: Let me ask --
KENNEDY JR.: -- negotiation --
MASTO: -- secretary, let me ask you another question. How much are Medicare Part D enrollees expected to pay for prescription drug coverage next year?
KENNEDY JR.: I think that is in debate right now.
MASTO: Let me tell you.
KENNEDY JR.: Are you talking about the --
MASTO: They are going to pay $15 more than last year, up to $50 a month. Now, let me have a question for you on Part B, how much are Medicare Part B
premiums expected to increase next year?
KENNEDY JR.: I don't know. I talked about --
MASTO: -- 11.6 percent or $21.50 more each month. And again, last time you were before me, you couldn't answer the questions of the very agency and
the authority that you have to address these issues. You know, next year, seniors and families are facing higher health care costs across the board.
23 million people on Medicare with a standalone Part D drug plan could see their premiums rise to $50 a month, up from 35 because the Trump
Administration is cutting the federal subsidy that has been keeping costs down. Part B, premiums will jump 11.6 percent to $206 a month in 2026, one
of the largest single year increases in decades.
[11:55:00]
And so, for an administration that claims it is lowering costs. My question to you is, what are you going to do to keep costs down for seniors?
KENNEDY JR.: I mean, I'm already doing what -- I'm already keeping costs down.
MASTO: What are you doing to keep costs down for seniors, knowing that these costs are going to be increasing?
KENNEDY JR.: I mean, the program integrity bill, that is the first action that I did when I got in it's one of the earliest actions in history of a
complex regulation by an HHS Secretary. A Congressional Budget Office has said that that's brought premiums down by 5 percent. It's the Congressional
Budget Office which does not like to acknowledge anything that we do.
MASTO: And does that impact seniors?
KENNEDY JR.: Excuse me.
MASTO: Does that impact seniors? And I know my time is running out. Does that impact seniors? What you just talked about, you're lowering costs. I'm
asking you specifically seniors.
KENNEDY JR.: Lowering costs --
MASTO: Does it impact seniors?
KENNEDY JR.: Does it impact.
MASTO: -- let me just stop -- I appreciate the chairman's indulgence here. My concern is you can't answer the questions. The very agency has oversight
over these issues and controls the levers to lower costs for seniors, and you can't answer that simple question.
KENNEDY JR.: I didn't hear your question.
MASTO: OK, let's go.
CRAPO: We'll just proceed. And Senator Tillis has yielded his position to Senator --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Secretary, thank you for joining us today. I appreciate the comments you've made about --
GOLODRYGA: All right, we just want to review what we've been hearing over the last couple of hours from this contentious at times hearing with HHS
Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Let's bring back in CNN Medical Correspondent, Meg Tirrell and Dr. George Benjamin, a long-time Executive
Director of the American Public Health Association.
Meg, I apologize I was cutting you off the last time we returned from a short break to this hearing, and we were talking about the accusation that
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. made against his own appointed CDC Director, who he then subsequently, last week, fired following an op-ed that she wrote in
"The Wall Street Journal" saying that.
I'm going to read this, an August 25 meeting where my boss, HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., pressured me to resign or face termination. That
meeting revealed that it wasn't just about one person or my job. It was one of the more public aspects of a deliberate effort to weaken America's
public health system and vaccine protections.
He essentially, she says, asked her to or directed her to fire others from an advisory panel. He was asked about this today, and he said that he never
met with her calling her a liar. Just talk about the extraordinary nature of that accusation alone.
TIRRELL: Yeah, I mean, I think what he was calling her a liar about was the idea that he had asked her to pre approve these recommendations from an
outside panel of vaccine advisors to the CDC. There is a meeting coming up September 18th that is going to be possibly very influential.
They are scheduled to vote on several vaccines that many children across the United States take. I mean, this could affect the childhood vaccination
schedule, and so a lot of folks are very concerned, because Robert F. Kennedy Jr. replaced all the experts on that panel with seven hand-picked
members of his own, and he's expected to potentially add more members to that panel even before that meeting, potentially.
And so, he said today that what -- said about being pressured to pre accept those recommendations, he called that a lie. And what's just striking about
all of this is that, of course, she was selected by President Trump, backed by Secretary Kennedy and confirmed by this Senate.
And so, we had been hearing some frustration from even Republican Senators who said, wait a minute, you just asked us to vote for the CDC Director,
and now you have ousted her. And so, we've heard a little bit of that coming up today, and certainly from Bill Cassidy, the Republican doctor who
chairs the Senate Health Committee, who is also on this committee, asking some very pointed questions.
And a pretty contentious back and forth between those two gentlemen as well. But of course, a lot of the real frustrations coming from the left.
GOLODRYGA: And Dr. Benjamin's, I'm not sure how much time has been spent, and maybe more questions will be asked about what we saw transpire in
Florida now, with real concerns about vaccine mandates being lifted. The Florida Surgeon General, just yesterday, said that he is directing the
Florida Department of Health to eliminate all vaccine directives issued by the health agency.
I won't get into some of the controversial language that he used while making this announcement, but just talk about the consequence of that and
the direct ties it has with Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s skepticism, longtime skepticism about the efficacy of vaccines.
BENJAMIN: Well, he certainly, Mr. Kennedy, has created a lot of mistrust and distrust because of his deliberate vaccine efforts
END
