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RFK JR. Testifies On Handling Of Public Health; RFK JR. Grilled By Senators On Vaccine Policy; RFK JR. Faces Senators' Questions About CDC Shake-Up; RFK JR.: Ex-CDC Director Lying About Why I Fired Her. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired September 04, 2025 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICAN PUBLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION: Well, he certainly, Mr. Kennedy, has treated a lot of mistrust

and distrust because of his deliberate vaccine efforts to -- to undermine vaccines. But getting rid of all of the routine childhood immunizations in

a state like Florida, in fact in any state, could be devastating for child health.

And in fact, it puts a whole lot of people not only the kids at risk, but if you think about it, any type of kind you get setting, a disaster

setting, a nursing home, a long-term care facility, any place where you have homeless individuals, any place where you have lots of kids together,

lots of people together, you're going to have enormous disease spread.

And, of course, diseases do not respect geographical boundaries. So, it puts the whole nation at risk.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. I want to thank you both for joining me. And if those of you just joining us this hour at home, I'm

Bianna Golodryga.

You've been watching a contentious and at times angry confrontation on Capitol Hill as Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

has been grilled by senators about the nation's health policies.

We're going to get back to that testimony in just a moment. Here's what we've heard, though, over the last couple of hours. Democrats have used

words like liar and charlatan to describe Kennedy, who has fired back, claiming that he has evidence to back up his controversial moves like

firing the director of the CDC and canceling half a billion dollars' worth in vaccine research.

It has not just been Democrats criticizing Kennedy. Key Republican Senator Bill Cassidy, who was a doctor himself, a medical doctor, lectured the

health secretary on his skepticism of COVID vaccines.

Other Republicans have also voiced concerns about Kennedy's vaccine policies.

In the meantime, let's get back to the hearing right now.

(SENATE HEARING OF ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.)

GOLODRYGA: All right. You've been watching a Senate hearing with Health and Human Services Committee Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. We're joined now

once again by CNN medical correspondent Meg Tirrell and Dr. Georges Benjamin, Executive Director of the American Public Health Association.

So, our viewers don't know this, but I have a side monitor here where I can see a number of our feeds and locations for our guests. And I have to say

without outing you, Meg, I hope this is OK.

There was a moment in this hearing where you physically held your head, your face with your hands, and gasped at the exchange between Robert F.

Kennedy Jr. and Elizabeth Warren, when she asked him about this op-ed from the now ousted CDC director, Dr. Susan Monarez, who he had effusively

praised just weeks before and going into her confirmation.

And it was in regard to an op-ed that she had today where she said, I'm going to quote, in a meeting with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was told to pre-

approve the recommendations of a vaccine advisory panel newly filled with people who have publicly expressed anti-vaccine rhetoric.

Now, we should note that panel is expected to meet later this month in just about a week and a half's time.

In response to that, he essentially called her a liar and said that he asked her point blank, are you a trustworthy person to which she responded

no.

Can you tell me about what went through your mind and your reaction to that shocking exchange?

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I was wondering if anybody noticed that, because when you're sitting in front of a camera, you have to

remember somebody can always see you. And so you -- you saw me.

But I just found -- I -- I was actually laughing because I couldn't imagine a scenario in which one person says to another person, are you a

trustworthy person? And the second person says no. And then he says, OK, I'm firing you. And that's what he said happened for why he facilitated the

firing of the CDC director, Dr. Susan Monarez, who he had supported just a month before when she was confirmed by this Senate.

And so there is -- it was just an amazing moment where I was sort of thinking, did he mean literally a trustworthy person? And she thought he

meant something else. And that's why she said no. I mean, it's just hard to parse that literally and try to understand if that is the reality of what

happened.

He also said that he never met with her one-on-one. So, he implied that there were always other people meeting with them. And so this should be

information, perhaps, that we can check and verify and figure out what actually happened.

But, of course, as you said, there are real consequences to public health for what is happening right now under Secretary Kennedy with that meeting

of that vaccine advisory group coming up in just a couple of weeks where they're set to vote on the childhood vaccine schedule. And he's getting a

lot of questions about that. And people are quite worried.

GOLODRYGA: And no surprise, Senator Sanders then followed up and said, I -- I just want to get this right. Are you saying that when you asked her, are

you a trustworthy person, she said, no, I'm not. Then Kennedy said, no. She just said, no. She didn't say I'm not. She just said, no, in response to

that.

So, he appears to be doubling down on this exchange with Susan Monarez. I would imagine at some point, sooner rather than later, we're going to be

hearing from her, as well as, as you correctly point out, Meg, if others were in the room, maybe they can attest to what actually transpired if they

had witnessed that.

Dr. Benjamin, the exchange between Senator Warren and RFK Jr. also focused on the ability for Americans to get a booster, a COVID booster shot. And

there was a back and forth where she accused him of going back on his word that anyone who wanted a vaccine could get one. And he said, no, nothing

has changed. Anyone who wants a vaccine can get one to which she responded, no, now that the recommendations and the guidelines have changed, people

can't just walk into a pharmacy and get a vaccine. There are other implications in terms of whether health insurance will cover it or not

since the guidance has been altered.

[12:25:04]

Who's right here in your view? Is it harder now, given the guidance for Americans you just go in and get a vaccine?

BENJAMIN: It's much harder if they get the vaccine. Senator Warren is right in the real-world experience that many people are getting shows that to be

true. So that's a real problem.

And by the way, he was asking the director, Monarez, before he fired her, to pre-approve something that hadn't even occurred yet with the committee.

And then, of course, he says the reason he fired her was because he says she wasn't trustworthy when it's very clear that the rationale that he has

said publicly is that he fired her because she wouldn't sign off on the recommendations.

So, he's not telling the truth there either. But it is much, much harder to get the vaccine because of what he said and what he's done.

GOLODRYGA: And, Meg, that was a point that was made by Senator Cassidy earlier in the hour as well when he said that -- and he is a medical

physician, we should note as well, where he said enlisted a number of examples from conservative talk show host Erick Erickson who said that his

wife who has, I think, stage three or four cancer, it cannot get the -- the vaccine and the booster shot that she urgently needs.

And he says physicians are reaching out to him as well, questioning whether they can tell their patients to get vaccines. There's a lot of confusion,

he said, and he ended his few moments there with RFK Jr. by saying, we are denying people vaccines. That is quite a serious allegation.

TIRRELL: Yes. And I think the point that Secretary Kennedy is trying to make is that they haven't taken the vaccines off the market. And so he is

saying, technically, if anybody wants a vaccine, they can still get a vaccine.

But what we are seeing in practice is that the confusion that is out there around this new policy is making it so that people are worried they won't

be able to get vaccines or even in some circumstances, perhaps going to a certain place they expected to be able to get a vaccine and not being able

to get it.

From some of those anecdotes we heard, perhaps the people providing those vaccines are worried that they're not supposed to be providing them to

certain people.

And so when you see confusion like this, we have seen in the past that this has resulted in people not getting shots who should be able to get those

shots and who should get those shots for their health in different indications, not just for COVID, but for other things when policies have

changed.

When there's confusion in the system that can lead to missteps. And so that I think is what folks are worried about. I get a lot of questions from my

own family members. Where can I get a vaccine? And, you know, which pharmacy? Which states allow pharmacists still to provide vaccines?

Even to the groups for whom they're recommended over the age of 65 and people with underlying health conditions. So, there is a lot of confusion

and even that alone can sometimes be enough to mean that somebody who wants a vaccine can't get one.

GOLODRYGA: And Dr. Benjamin, about this advisory panel, which Dr. Monarez says that Secretary Kennedy told her to -- to pre-approves its members and

advisory panels. And those were people who she says had publicly expressed anti-vaccine rhetoric.

He was asked about this earlier from another senator and asked about some of these advisory members and panel members who may not be qualified, A and

B, may have a conflict of interest given where they're receiving certain payments, which organizations and their views.

And he didn't seem to find issue with that, he said, as long as they just disclosed that publicly. What did you make of his defense line there?

BENJAMIN: Well, it was -- it was mostly inaccurate. You know, we know that the -- this committee that he's -- he's populated with new people is not

inwards nearest qualified as the previous committee.

They have more conflicts of interest. Many of them have not been very transparent because we don't know what their conflicts of interest. They're

fully know what their conflict of interests are.

And we pretty know how they will behave because they have already approved the removal of thimerosal from a vaccine despite the lack of scientific

evidence that they should have done that.

So, we've already seen them create a non-scientific recommendation, which of course the -- the secretary approved.

GOLODRYGA: All right. Dr. Georges Benjamin and Meg Tirrell, thank you so much.

We're going to take a quick break and come right back after a few moments. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:30:57]

GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to "One World." I'm Bianna Golodryga.

We'll go back to the Senate hearing with Health and Human Services Secretary Robert Kennedy Jr. in just a moment.

But first, Arlette Saenz is on Capitol Hill and has been speaking to senators after their questioning.

Arlette, we heard some tough questioning not only from democratic senators, which would be expected. But Republicans as well, what have you heard from

some of them coming out?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. There have been quite a few notable exchanges where there have been Republican senators who have challenged

Secretary Kennedy as it relates to vaccine policy.

Now, a short while ago, we spoke with Senator Thom Tillis, who was one of the senators who had some concerns about past commitments that Kennedy had

made to senators during his confirmation process to not largely impact vaccine policy in this country.

I asked Tillis if he still had confidence in Secretary Kennedy's ability to serve leading HHS, and he said he still has a lot of concerns, especially

stemming from the decision to oust the CDC director, Susan Monarez, just weeks into the job.

Now, Tillis said that he thinks that these lawmakers need to start cutting through the political BS and focus on the science. He still said he had

many questions for Kennedy relating to the science behind some of his vaccine and other health policy statements.

I also think that the exchange with Senator John Barrasso of Wyoming, a Republican, that moment in the hearing was quite notable. While Senator

Cassidy and Senator Tillis have been quite vocal in some of their concerns, this was a very rare moment where we heard Barrasso talk about his concerns

about the threats to vaccine policy.

He said that he was a doctor, that he trusts vaccines for his family, for his patients, for his children. And so he really had wanted to press

Kennedy on that matter.

Now, I asked Barrasso if he still had confidence in Kennedy's ability to serve. He was getting on an elevator. And as the doors were shutting

closed, he said that he had confidence in President Trump and what he's doing and doesn't want to second-guess that.

[12:35:06]

On the democratic side, we've heard a lot of frustration coming out from this hearing. They feel that Secretary Kennedy has been lying and further

eroding trust in vaccines' safety here in the country. They want there to be greater oversight over Kennedy in the HHS.

Several of these Democratic senators I spoke with said that they especially want to bring in the ousted CDC director, Monarez, to testify, especially

after Kennedy, in this hearing, has said that she was lying in that "Wall Street Journal" op-ed earlier today, where she had said that she was

pressured to pre-accept recommendations from a vaccine advisory panel before they had even met.

So, that's a -- a little bit of a sample of the sentiments coming out of this hearing as Kennedy has faced a grilling from lawmakers and there are

more senators who are pushing for greater oversight of what he's doing.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. It's curious. I believe that Senator Wyden had wanted to swear him in under oath before his testimony and that request was denied. I

didn't think much of it at the time.

I just -- I want to confirm that that's actually what happened. But if so, it's especially interesting now, given the allegations that he made against

Dr. Monarez.

All right. Arlette Saenz, not doctor. Arlette Saenz on Capitol Hill for us. Thank you so much.

Let's go back to the hearing.

(SENATE HEARING OF ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.)

[12:50:59]

GOLODRYGA: All right. You've been watching a Senate hearing with Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

We're joined once again by CNN medical correspondent Meg Tirrell and Dr. Georges Benjamin, Executive Director of the American Public Association.

And, Meg, as we heard there from one of the Q and A's back and forth between Senator and RFK Jr., whether or not that was Warnock of Georgia,

whether or not he said that he had asked the now ousted CDC director Dr. Monarez to fire panelists that would be on the Vaccine Advisory Board --

that are on the Vaccine Advisory Board. He said, yes, that he did ask her demand that she fire CDC officials.

Just your thoughts on what we heard about that exchange and him also confirming that he views the CDC as one of the most corrupt agencies at HHS

and in the government.

TIRRELL: Well, you know, it's something that I hear from a lot of the people who are still at the CDC that they are really concerned about the

continuing language that they believe put them potentially at risk, that there is so much anger at the CDC.

And we know that at that shooting August 8th, which, of course, you know, Senator Warnock represents Georgia. So, he is really close to the folks at

CDC.

The shooter was said by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation to have been upset about the COVID vaccine and to have wanted to express his discontent

publicly and he fired hundreds of rounds at CDC headquarters and -- and a police officer was killed at that shooting.

And a lot of the employees within HHS and they expressed this in a series of letters over the last month, the last one yesterday, culminating and

demanding his resignation. They said that they don't feel safe because a lot of the rhetoric that is coming, they say, from Secretary Kennedy around

the CDC.

And so, you know, the employees are left feeling scared still that they are being said to be the untrustworthy ones. That's something we were hearing

over and over in this hearing today. Secretary Kennedy saying, well, we can't trust the numbers on COVID because the CDC's data was so messed up.

And a lot of the people are still there who were at CDC before.

And so he's saying they're cleaning it up, but they appointed a new CDC director, he and President Trump, who served in that position for a month,

confirmed by this Senate, and they ousted her as well.

And so, you know, there's a lot of confusion and chaos going on and people within the CDC are feeling quite worried about sort of the continuing

language there.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. The confusion and chaos, Dr. Benjamin, just what does that mean for public health in general here in this country and for those career

officials who are apolitical, a number of them have already resigned or been fired within the -- the seven month period now since the Trump

administration?

And now you're hearing the HHS Secretary double down and really take credit for everything that has transpired there.

BENJAMIN: Yes. You know, the interesting thing is that he's been there seven months. And during the seven months he has -- so he let people get

fired. He's thrown people out the door. He's created a lot of distrust.

And, you know, imagine running an organization, you're the commander of a unit. And you're not telling your -- your -- your employees that you don't

trust them, that they have not done a good job.

But then you're going out and you're taking credit for anything that might have happened during that time period. That cannot be good for moral.

You know, I've -- I've run big health departments and I got to tell you that Mr. Kennedy has done a terrible job.

Look at this. Imagine someone shooting 500 rounds at the building in which you live in, that you work in every day. And even if you weren't in the

building, that's got to be traumatic.

And we stop -- when that happens at a school, we stop classes. We give people counseling. We deal with their emotional support, not only are the

employee, but their family members. That has not happened at the scale that it needs to happen at CDC.

And the one thing you also don't do is you don't go back and blame them for their own attack, for the attack that occurred on them. And that's exactly

what he's been doing.

GOLODRYGA: Well, mass shootings are another scourge that's uniquely an American problem. And we don't have enough time in the day to talk about

just the -- the significance of that issue alone and the -- the countless lives lost and impacted.

But as it relates to HHS, Meg, I know you speak to many current and former healthcare officials and those in the private sector as well. This is a

huge organization. I believe they have $1.7 trillion budget, some 80 to 90,000 employees.

What are you hearing from them? What are some of their top concerns?

[12:55:03]

TIRRELL: I think they're concerned about the chaos. And I think in a lot of ways, what you're seeing is a breaking down.

If you look at the CDC anyway and you think about vaccine policy, we are starting to lose the federal oversight and infrastructure of setting

vaccine policy. And you can see that really obviously laid out even in the news today where you have Florida saying that they are going to get rid of

all vaccine requirements, including those for school children going to public schools.

And at the same time as you have Florida saying that they're going to do that, and you have several western states that are saying, we're going to

ban together, California, Washington and Oregon, and they're going to create their own public policy guidelines because they don't trust what's

coming out of the CDC anymore.

And so, I think there's a lot of concern that we are entering a period where we're in this tapestry of public health guidance. And the kind of

public health you can expect to receive is going to be based on where you live.

And, of course, that was already true for a number of reasons, but this is really from a vaccine and public health policy perspective becoming even

more so.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And from public health in particular in vaccines, why this is so important is because it's all about herd immunity. And the efficacy

of vaccines really increases when the majority of the population is vaccinated.

So, that's why those who have children, even in Florida who can go get their vaccine, they're in a classroom with children that don't have their

vaccine. There's a reason for them to worry as well.

Meg Tirrell, Dr. Georges Benjamin, thank you so much for being with us these two hours. Really appreciate it.

That does it for "One World." I'm Bianna Golodryga. Thanks so much for watching. "Amanpour" is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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