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One World with Zain Asher
Iranian FM: Ready For Fair, Dignified Negotiation With U.S.; Pope Leo Meets Venezuelan Opposition Leader Maria Machado; Suspect Arrested After Fire Destroys Only Jackson Synagogue; Buddhist Monks Walk Across America On Peace Mission; Grok Under Fire For "Digitally Undressing" People; DOJ Opens Criminal Investigation Into The Fed And Jerome Powell; Aired 12-1p ET
Aired January 12, 2026 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[12:00:34]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Unrest and fury on the streets of Iran. Could this time be the tipping point? The second hour of "One World" starts right
now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And we will hit them at levels that they've never been hit before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Violent crackdown. Trump puts Iran on notice as security forces raid homes with access to satellite internet. One resident is saying, it's
much worse than you can even imagine.
Also ahead, stunning rebuke, Fed Chair Jerome Powell publicly slams the Trump administration for the first time.
And later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was brilliant. It was such a proud moment and just knowing that so many other children are going to have that exact same
reaction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: She's new in town and there's absolutely no one like her. My Barbie's new friend is such a big deal. We'll explain, up ahead.
Hello, everyone. Live from New York, I'm Bianna Golodryga. You are watching the second hour of "One World."
Tehran says that it's willing to engage in dialogue with Washington but is also prepared for war. And those channels of communication may already be
opening.
One source tells us that Iran's foreign minister has reached out to U.S. envoy Steve Witkoff over the weekend.
Meanwhile, massive anti-government protests are taking place on the streets of Iran nationwide, the fifth wave in the past decade.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(PROTESTING)
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GOLODRYGA: Demonstrations initially sparked by anger over the economy evolved into calls for political change over authoritarian rule. Iran's
judiciary warning that there will be zero tolerance for anyone calling for protests.
And as in the past, authorities are stepping up in violent crackdowns. Some 10,000 people have reportedly been arrested. And one U.S.-based human
rights group says more than 500 protesters have been killed in the past 15 days of unrest. And that number could grow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SKYLAR THOMPSON, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS IN IRAN (HRA): We are still right now investigating over 500 additional cases. So that means
that should we confirm all of these numbers, the number of those killed will exceed a thousand. And that's in just 15 days, which is, you know,
it's extraordinary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: U.S. President Donald Trump says Tehran called to negotiate as his administration weighs a series of potential military options.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An option?
TRUMP: Iran called to negotiate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yesterday?
TRUMP: Yesterday. The leaders of Iran called. They want to negotiate. I think they're tired of being beat up by the United States.
A meeting is being set up. But we may have to act because of what's happening before the meeting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: CNN's Nada Bashir is tracking the developments and joins us now from London.
I keep going back to what that one eyewitness told CNN that it's much worse than one could even expect. And with one percent connectivity nationwide
for that country right now, pretty indicative of the harsh extremes that the Iranian regime is going to in trying to suppress these protests.
What more have we learned about the reports of the foreign minister of Iran actually reaching out to Steve Witkoff, President Trump's envoy?
NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is interesting that we are hearing these reports given these sort of rhetoric and messaging that we have been
hearing from the state.
Officially within Iran today, we have seen widespread rallies and demonstrations taking place in the capital Tehran in support of the regime.
These are, of course, demonstrations who are heeding the call of the Islamic regime's leaders who had called for these demonstrations to take
place.
And, of course, we've been hearing from Iran's foreign minister saying that the situation in Iran is under control. But that messaging, of course,
stands in contrast to what we have been seeing over recent weeks. And, of course, now learning that there has been some communication between Iran
and the United States for negotiations to take place between the two parties.
President Trump, of course, has repeatedly reiterated his warning that if the Iranian regime and its security forces uses lethal force against
protesters in the streets of Iran, that the U.S. will take action, in his words, will hit Iran pretty hard.
[12:05:01]
We've been hearing, of course, from two U.S. officials who are familiar with these ongoing discussions, have told CNN that President Trump is said
to be weighing up his options when it comes to potential military action in Iran to target Iran's security apparatus rather than any sort of U.S. boots
on the ground, for example. But again, the question remains whether the U.S. will take action before any such negotiations can take place.
What we have seen over the last few days, the little that we have seen, of course, important to remember that there is that total communications and
internet blackout now in place in Iran since Thursday is shocking.
And I just want to warn our viewers, some of the videos that we have are distressing. We have begun to see now video emerging of body bags, victims
who have been killed over the course of these protests over the weekend.
Family members distraught and weeping over these bodies as they try to identify their loved ones outside of this medical complex. And that just
gives us a small indication of what may have unfolded since Thursday since that internet blackout came into force, essentially blocking any sort of
video evidence information coming out of Iran for the world to see. So we are only really getting snippets.
And we are hearing reports from some individuals who have been able to reach outside of Iran who have said that the hospitals in Tehran are
overwhelmed. That there has been reports of live ammunition being used against protesters.
Clearly, now we are seeing videos of the victims of this crackdown by the Iranian regime. So whether there is any action taken by the international
community directly to quell the violence of the Iranian regime remains to be seen.
But again, we are seeing these protesters still defiance, still taking to the streets. And as you mentioned, Bianna, this has grown into so much more
than what it began as, of course, in late December.
We saw protesters into Tehran's bizarre protesting over the economic crisis. Now, we are hearing protesters across every province of Iran now
calling for the regime to be toppled.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. That there are these protests now in their third week as well, so many eyes on how the world specifically the United States will
respond.
Nada Bashir, thank you so much.
For a closer look at what's happening in Iran, let's bring in Jack Goldstone. He is a professor of public policy at George Mason University
and a contributor to "The Atlantic" and the co-author of a very provocative and smart piece over the weekend on this very subject. Thank you so much
for joining us.
You argue that along with Karim Sadjadpour, who -- who co-wrote this piece with you, you both argued that for the first time, since 1979, Iran meets
nearly all five conditions necessary for revolutionary collapse. That include fiscal crisis, divided elites, mass coalition, shared narrative,
and a favorable international environment.
But you also point to the same hinge, and that is the security forces. The IRGC still in place in the country appears to remain unified as well.
Does that alone doom a revolution from happening? Or what do you think could, in fact, take place if the IRGC doesn't crumble initially that would
still lead to the topple of this regime?
JACK GOLDSTONE, PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC POLICY, GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY: Well, I think this is a world-changing moment. What we're seeing in Iran now is
really quite different from what we've seen before.
Over the past few years, we've seen repeated protests. But what we're seeing now is a nationwide call for the end of the regime. So this is the
beginning stages of a revolution, whether it succeeds, does hinge on what the Basij and Revolutionary Guard choose to do.
But I hope, despite all the talk about hitting Iran hard, that the administration is also offering carrots as well as sticks.
We just heard that the Iranian leadership has reached out to President Trump. And I think there's room for a deal here in which the -- the
Revolutionary Guard and some of the civilian secular leaders agreed to remove the clerical leadership in exchange for dropping of sanctions and
resuming of trade.
Remember, this whole thing began with economic protests. And the main motivation is the collapse of the economy. So if the United States offers
Iranian leadership a chance to start to restore their economy, in exchange for doing away with what is a very unpopular and ineffective regime, I
think there's a chance for a deal.
GOLODRYGA: So a similar blueprint to that, that what we've just seen take place in Venezuela, the net result is to be determined, obviously.
But it's interesting that you say this could be an option and should be an option that the administration should consider, because one analyst just
noted that having any type of negotiations right now with the regime, while it's massacring its own people, would be a terrible mistake by Washington.
It will give the regime a way out of its crisis on the expense of the Iranian protesters.
[12:10:06]
Is that the outcome that you think the Iranians who are out there protesting now would accept?
GOLDSTONE: I think what the Iranians are protesting is the repressive religious regime led by unaccountable clerical leaders. There are other
elements of the regime, former presidential candidates, parliamentary leaders and so on, who could step in and start to restore order while
pushing the clerical leadership aside.
And if that came with the promises of future elections and a restoration of economic relations with the rest of the world, yes, I think the Iranian
people would accept that. They want normalcy. They want stability. They want restoration of the economy.
GOLODRYGA: So, for the protesters who are now shouting that this is no longer about reform, but about overthrowing the regime, in your view, even
for the so -- so-called moderates or reformers, you know, some would suggest that that means if the ship sinks, they go down with it, you think
there's still a lifeline for them?
GOLDSTONE: Well, I'm particularly thinking of people like former presidential candidate Mousavi, opposition leaders who are under house
arrest or in jail. They could be tapped by elements in the existing administration to make a deal.
The real target is the Ayatollah and the Supreme Leadership Council that's been dominated by conservative clerics.
And the real issue is, will the military continue to support that small, unpopular circle of clerical leaders? Or will they try and find a deal more
acceptable to the Iranian people? I think there's room to do that without a total collapse of order. That would be an unfortunate outcome.
GOLODRYGA: And I haven't heard you mention outside opposition. Of course, I'm talking about Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi, who more and more so you are
hearing his name echoed by a number of these protesters.
Is that not an option that you think should be a viable one for both the United States? But more importantly, for the Iranians themselves to
consider even for the interim?
GOLDSTONE: Well, Crown Prince Pahlavi has been popular among some of the Iranian people, not all.
On the other hand, he has raised his profile with calls for protests this week and a statement that he is willing to be a transitional leader
presiding over democratic elections. That's -- that's a much better option, I think, for most Iranians than the prospect of having him return as some
kind of monarchy.
So, I think the Crown Prince has raised the possibility that he will be involved in a transition. But again, he has no real leverage. His role at
the moment is as a symbolic poll for the opposition to unify around. And in that respect, he's quite useful. But it's still a question of whether the
existing regime will step aside.
GOLODRYGA: And looking at past revolutions, something that -- that you have followed closely, history dating back to World War II to the present, shows
that about only one in five authoritarian regimes collapse and then lead to a democracy, given Iran's armed factions and weak institutions, what's the
likelihood that we could see Iran actually as an outlier from those statistics?
GOLDSTONE: Well, one in five means that one in five succeed. And Iran has had a series of unsuccessful protests against the regime going back to 2009
and even before.
So I think at this point, given the extent of the protests, given the weakness of the regime after the military bashing from Israel and the U.S.,
given the collapse of the currency, this is a different situation, one in which there's a much higher probability that the regime is forced to
surrender or depart.
GOLODRYGA: And quickly, are these views and analysis that -- that you've shared with the administration as they're contemplating now what their next
steps and involvement potentially could be?
GOLDSTONE: Well, the administration is negotiating in secret. They haven't consulted me. I'm happy to talk to them if they wish. But I -- I trust that
they know what they're doing in trying to arrange a transition of power with minimal bloodshed.
GOLODRYGA: Well, if they're watching, they know how to find you. And I suggest they read your piece that you co-authored with Karim. Thank you so
much.
GOLDSTONE: Thank you, Bianna. Pleasure to be with you.
GOLODRYGA: Jack Goldstone, appreciate your time. Thank you.
Well, Donald Trump is demanding that Cuba make a deal now that the U.S. is controlling Venezuelan oil. The president says the money from Venezuela's
oil industry that flows into Cuba will stop unless a new deal is struck.
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TRUMP: You're going to find out pretty soon. We're talking to Cuba. And you'll find out pretty soon.
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GOLODRYGA: Meanwhile, Cuba's president is pushing back. Miguel Diaz-Canel says that no one will force his government to do anything.
And on the street, Cubans are equally defiant.
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[12:15:04]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): That doesn't scare me, not at all. At no point, at no point that that scare me because I'm prepared. The Cuban
people are prepared for anything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Trump knows perfectly well that he has to find a solution because he can't just take over Cuba like that.
And if he went down that route with Venezuela, it's because there were shady things going on, but we're not to blame for any of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: For weeks, Venezuelans have held protests like these, demanding political prisoners be freed. And now, 24 of them have been released.
That's according to a human rights group, which adds that these are in addition to 17 other releases since Thursday.
The U.S. president says because of these releases, he canceled a second round of attacks.
Well, Maria Corina Machado is scheduled to meet with President Trump at the White House on Thursday, this according to a senior official.
Earlier today, the Nobel Laureate and opposition leader met with Pope Leo. Political prisoners were a subject of discussion between the two.
Pope Leo urged the U.S. to respect the rights of Venezuelans after the operation to remove President Nicolas Maduro.
Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb joins us now with the details.
So, what more do we know about the meeting between the Pope and Maria Corina Machado, the Nobel Laureate? How long did they speak? And what more
do they talk about?
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bianna, we've had no details from the Vatican about the meeting, but we do know from Maria Corina
Machado's team that they did discuss political prisoners and the release of them.
I think what's going on here, though, is the Vatican potentially positioning itself as a mediator in the crisis in Venezuela.
Pope Leo, of course, is someone who knows Latin America very well. He served in Peru for decades. And he helped people leaving Venezuela and
coming to Peru when he was a bishop there. So he understands the situation very well. Of course, he's the first U.S. pope.
And the whole work to release political prisoners is the kind of quiet behind-the-scenes diplomacy that the Vatican has done in the past and other
global crises.
Also significant that the pair met before Machado's meeting with President Donald Trump later this week. That's expected on Thursday.
So, you know, and again, it is the Vatican positioning itself as a potential mediator and peacemaker in this crisis. That's something that
Pope Leo, I think, would like to do. And he has spoken about his deep concern about Venezuela.
So I think Leo here trying to use every diplomatic lever at his disposal to help people in Venezuela and the situation there.
Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Christopher Lamb, thank you so much.
Well, students in northern Nigeria are back in the classroom today, this moment coming nearly two months after hundreds of children were abducted.
In November, more than 300 students and staff were taken from central Nigeria, which resulted in closure. These abductions underlined just how
vulnerable schools are in a region plagued by criminal gangs and insurgents.
While some schools have now resumed academic activity, safety about -- questions about safety remain. The federal government says that it has
updated security measures, though it did not provide details.
All right. And still to come on "One World," as anti-Semitic attacks rise across the country and the world, the only synagogue in Jackson,
Mississippi grapples with a tragic incident yet again. We'll have the latest on this investigation.
Also ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEROME POWELL, CHAIR OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE OF THE UNITED STATES: The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting
interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Trump administration enters a legal battle with the chairman of the Federal Reserve. We'll have details ahead on this stunning and
unprecedented action.
Plus, why parents and autism advocates are celebrating the newest Barbie who features real-life sensory tools. That story just ahead.
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[12:20:08]
GOLODRYGA: A suspect has been arrested after a fire blazed through the only synagogue in Jackson, Mississippi on Saturday. The unidentified suspect was
found at a local hospital with burn injuries.
The motive for the fire still under investigation, but it's coming amid a rise in anti-Semitic attacks in the U.S. in recent years.
Several Torah scrolls were destroyed according to the American Jewish Committee, which condemned the incident as a hateful act.
CNN's Rafael Romo has more on the fire and why the incident is reawakening old wounds.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RAFAEL ROMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, the surveillance video that CNN just obtained show some man wearing a hoodie and a mask pouring liquid from
a can inside the synagogue.
The man seems to be making an effort to douse every crevice and corner as he moves around one of the walls that Jackson, Mississippi fire department
says, they got the call about the fire around 3:00 on Saturday morning.
Fire investigations Chief Charles Felton, said on a news conference that firefighters found smoke and flames at the synagogue when they arrived and
had to force their way inside.
Official said it took firefighters almost two hours to get the fire under control. Beth Israel is Mississippi's largest synagogue and its original
location built just after the end of the Civil War, was the first Jewish temple built in the state according to the congregation. It is also
Jackson's only synagogue.
According to the synagogue's website, in 1967, Beth Israel's temple was bombed by local Ku Klux Klan members in part because of the congregation's
work in the civil rights movement.
In a statement to CNN, the Beth Israel congregation said that the cause of the fire has been established as arson and a suspect has been arrested,
adding that no one was injured in the fire that happened in the early morning hours of January 10.
In a statement, Beth Israel Congregation president, Zach Shemper, also told CNN that as Jackson's only synagogue, Beth Israel is a beloved institution
and it is the fellowship of our neighbors and extended community that will see us through.
He said, we are still assessing the damage to the building, but we will be continuing our worship services and other programs location to be
determined.
I also spoke to former congregation president Michelle Shemper on the phone. She said that several churches have extended kind offers for Beth
Israel congregants to use their building as a worship space as they rebuild.
She also said that there is significant damage to the library of the temple and near the offices as well as smoke and ash damage throughout the
building.
Bianna, now back to you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Those images are just horrific.
As we mentioned earlier, several Torahs burnt in the fire, except for one with major historical significance. Protected by a glass, a Torah from the
Holocaust survived the blaze intact.
[12:25:05]
The damage in the synagogue's library, however, was widespread, inflicting a deep cultural wound on the Jewish community there and beyond. We'll
continue to follow this story.
Also, a group of Buddhist monks are taking their message on the road, spreading the simple concepts of kindness, compassion, and peace as they
walk across the United States. They're touching the hearts and minds of everyday Americans along the way.
CNN's Isabel Rosales reports.
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ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In late October, about 2,000 Buddhist monks began their walk for peace with their dog Aloka,
starting in Fort Worth, Texas, and going all the way to Washington, D.C.
Over 120 days, the monks are walking more than 2,000 miles on foot, crossing 10 states and visiting their capitals to call for peace in the
U.S. They say their purpose is rooted in spiritual devotion and civic purpose.
BHIKKHU PANNAKARA, SPIRITUAL LEADER, WALK FOR PEACE: We are now taking on this journey, Walk For Peace, to raise awareness of peace, love and
kindness and compassion. Hopefully that our country and the world will be healed. Everybody will be living in unity and harmony.
ROSALES: Even while traveling, they continue their strict, ascetic code of one meal per day and sleeping beneath trees and makeshift campsites. A
support van follows them with supplies.
They stop almost nightly in small towns along the way, using community centers, police stations, churches, historical landmarks, and other
Buddhist temples to meet with people, speak, and share their reasons for walking. They're often escorted by community members and local law
enforcement.
Less than a month into their walk, a traffic accident in Dayton, Texas left one monk hospitalized, and eventually, one of his legs had to be amputated.
He recovered and returned home to Georgia, where he was able to reunite with the monks when they reached his home temple on their path.
The monks face other daily challenges, like keeping their feet and bodies healthy. The weather was cold and rainy as they traveled through Louisiana.
In Mississippi, a local church organized dancers to perform for them.
As their journey went on, words spread online, leading to larger and larger crowds cheering them on in Alabama and Georgia.
U.S. Senator and Reverend Raphael Warnock joined a large gathering, encouraging the monks and calling for peace around the world.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA): And with every step they are taking, they are drawing attention to the steps that people of conscience must take to end
violence.
Medical professionals in a small Georgia town even volunteer to check all the monks' health.
The real star of the show might be the monks' faithful companion on the road, their dog, Aloka, who has garnered almost half a million followers on
social media.
Aloka can be seen sleeping at their rest stops, walking alongside them, playing with visitors, and riding in their van for breaks.
This weekend, the monks are making their way through South Carolina, on their way to the U.S. capital in Washington, D.C.
PANNAKARA: Peace is always being within me. And we don't have to look our to buy peace, we just have to look within.
ROSALES (voice-over): Isabel Rosales, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to "One World." I'm Bianna Golodryga.
After days of uproar over Grok's ability to create explicit images, Malaysia and Indonesia are blocking the A.I. chatbot.
The A.I. tool has been widely criticized for generating images that digitally undressed people, including children.
CNN's Hanako Montgomery has the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HANAKO MONTGOMERY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indonesia and Malaysia move to temporarily ban Grok, the A.I. chatbot on the social media platform X.
The first two countries in the world to do so in response to its image generation feature. Indonesia released a statement on Saturday which read,
quote, the government views non-consensual sexual deep fake practices as a serious violation of human rights, human dignity and the security of
citizens in the digital space.
Now Malaysia followed a day later saying on Sunday, quote, this action follows repeated misuse of Grok to generate obscene, sexually explicit,
indecent, grossly offensive and non-consensual manipulated images, including content involving women and minors despite prior regulatory
engagement and formal notices issued to X Corp and X.AI LLC.
Now, these two countries do have a track record of blocking or restricting tech and online platforms over obscene content.
But we also know that officials in the U.K., E.U., India and the U.S. have raised alarm over Grok's ability to generate non-consensual and sexualized
images of women and minors, which is a practice often referred to as digital undressing, which can, as you can imagine, be deeply humiliating
for victims as it's very difficult to remove these images from online platforms.
Now Elon Musk, the CEO of the parent company of both X and Grok hasn't directly responded to this crackdown, but he has earlier criticized the
U.K. government over a potential ban of X, saying, quote, they just want to suppress free speech.
Now in response to the growing alarm of the sexually explicit deepfakes, X has moved the A.I. image generation function of Grok behind a paywall, but
this is very much a developing story as Grok still hasn't come up with an effective solution to limit the spread of this content.
Hanako Montgomery, CNN, Hong Kong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Well, the gloves are officially off. We are tracking the fallout from the Trump administration's fight over interest rates.
Federal prosecutors have now opened a criminal investigation into Jerome Powell, the chairman of the Federal Reserve. This investigation will look
into the Central Bank's renovation of its Washington headquarters and questions whether Powell lied to Congress.
Since his return to the White House, President Trump has repeatedly blasted Powell for not lowering interest rates fast enough. Powell insists that
this investigation has nothing to do with his testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POWELL: This new threat is not about my testimony last June or about the renovation of the Federal Reserve buildings. It is not about Congress'
oversight role. The Fed through testimony and other public disclosures made every effort to keep Congress informed about the renovation project. Those
are pretexts.
The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the
public, rather than following the preferences of the president.
This is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions or whether instead monetary
policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[12:35:07]
GOLODRYGA: Time now for "The Exchange." And joining me to discuss this month's long pressure campaign is Natasha Sarin, Professor of Law at Yale
Law School.
Natasha, I think we've exhausted the term unprecedented here in our coverage, but that is exactly where we find ourselves right now.
I'd like to pick up with that last line that we heard from Jay Powell, who is also a trained attorney. And from all reporting, he had been working
with his attorneys over the weekend following this news and deciding that the best thing to do was to make it public by saying this. This is about
the economic conditions. This is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions,
or whether instead monetary policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation.
Explain what happens, Natasha, to a country and an economy that ends up in the latter, because this isn't just hypothetical. There are real life
examples of just that.
NATASHA SARIN, PROFESSOR OF LAW, YALE LAW SCHOOL: There are real life examples, including here in the United States when in the 1970s, under
pressure from President Nixon, you had Arthur Burns, a Fed Chair who changed interest rates in response to the fact that there were political
pressures to lower them ahead of an election.
And what happened here in this country as a result of that decision was that you saw inflation increase from three percent to 13 percent over the
course of just two years. And you had a massive downturn as a result of the fact that Central Bank independence had been threatened so perilously.
And that has happened in more recent history in countries like Turkey and in Argentina, where you've seen political pressure and intimidation of
central bankers as a tool that politicians use that ultimately reverberates to the American people and to the citizens of those countries in the form
of a less stable economy.
And so we know what happens here. History tells us that the result of these actions, these incredibly dangerous actions by this administration, is
economic instability.
And that's why you've seen bipartisan former Fed officials as well as chairmen of the Council of Economic Advisers, as well as Treasury
Secretaries come out today and say that this cannot stand.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. As well as Republican lawmakers as well, including Senator Thom Tillis over the weekend, he is retiring, but he's a member of the
banking committee, and he vowed to oppose the confirmation of any nominee for the Fed, including any for the chair, the vacancy that's expected in
the next few months when Jay Powell's term is set to expire citing now reports of these subpoenas.
And here's what he posted on X. If there were any remaining doubt, whether advisors within the Trump administration are actively pushing to end the
independence of the Federal Reserve, there should now be none. It is now the independence and credibility of the Department of Justice that are in
question.
From a legal standpoint, Natasha, what actually has to be proven here?
SARIN: There is no legal authority that the president has to remove the chair of the Federal Reserve. This is one of the positions in the
government that is meant to be insulated from this type of political pressure precisely because it's important for the Federal Reserve to be
able to take the long view with respect to the economy and focus solely on its dual mandate, which is fighting inflation and making sure it achieves
maximum employment.
And all of this, and I sort of -- I wrote a piece for "The New York Times" at the end of last year where I made the point that one of the most
striking images in my mind of the first year of the Trump administration was Fed Chair Jay Powell and President Trump in hardhats at the Federal
Reserve's renovation site when the president was visiting there in sort of efforts to investigate the fact that costs were high because of asbestos in
the walls, because of contracting costs increasing.
But really what that was about was it was a visual representation of this president trying to take a more aggressive posture with respect to
inserting himself into monetary policy decisions. And there is no legal basis for him to do that. And, in fact, legal protections against him doing
exactly that.
And this is not just an isolated incident with respect to these subpoenas. This is a months-long campaign with respect to dismantling central bank
independence because this is an administration that believes that the president should be involved in setting interest rates and economists of
all stripes will tell you the deep dangers associated with that type of a belief.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. We also know that federal projects and renovation projects routinely go over budget. Just look at the ballroom that the president is
now working on refurbishing as well. The price tag for that continues to grow.
Greg Ip at the "Wall Street Journal" writes this. So the investigation is also a message to whoever succeeds Powell, likely either Trump advisor
Kevin Hassett or former Fed governor Kevin Warsh. Both of them are -- are claiming to be independent in whatever decisions they make, will -- will
not be based on the president's preferences.
[12:40:16]
But by doing just this, does that not make anybody who inherits this job put it into an even more extreme box and situation?
SARIN: You know, that's what I found so interesting about this particular moment because, of course, Chair Powell's term expires in May of this year.
So the president actually has a tool that is going to be directly available to him in just a few short months which is appointing the next head of the
Federal Reserve who will play a very active role in determining interest rate decisions going forward.
And importantly, in order for that to be a successful term shift for whoever the president decides to appoint, that individual needs to be free
of the types of political pressures that this -- that this administration is already putting on Chair Powell and other members of the board of
governors.
And so I think one way to kind of see what's happening here is you have an administration that is dealing with affordability as a front-of-mind issue
that has come through with tariffs at the highest late rates that we've seen in the last century that is reverberating into higher costs, not lower
ones for the American people.
And in some respects, these actions are aimed at misdirecting and it trying to indicate that there are others to blame for the situations that the
administration's policies have put on the American people and not their choices themselves.
And I think that's incredibly dangerous not because it's missed -- not just because it's misdirection, but it's incredibly dangerous because it risks
breaking the sort of magic sauce of central bank independence that is one of the underpinnings of our economic security.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And Powell's role as Fed chair may be ending at the end of May. But I believe his role as Fed board governor is not up yet. And this
could in fact lead him to -- to decide to stay even longer.
Natasha Sarin, we'll continue to follow this closely.
SARIN: Very interesting. Yes. I know --
GOLODRYGA: Yes.
SARIN: -- it's very interesting.
GOLODRYGA: Thank you so much. It's really good to see you. Appreciate the time.
Well, autism advocates are celebrating the first ever Barbie on the spectrum. The doll carries a pink fidget spinner, wears pink noise
canceling headphones to help with sensory overload and holds a pink tablet representing a communication device.
Barbie's gaze shift slightly to the side reflecting how some people with autism avoid direct eye contact. Parents and advocates call it a meaningful
representation for what is often an invisible disability.
All right. That does it for this hour of "One World." I'm Bianna Golodryga. Don't go anywhere. I'll be back in 15 minutes with "Amanpour." First,
"African Voices Changemakers" is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(AFRICAN VOICES CHANGEMAKERS)
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