Return to Transcripts main page
Piers Morgan Live
Ariel Castro Confesses; Gina DeJesus Talks to Reporter; Castro's Double Life
Aired May 09, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: He might be the most hated man in America right now. Ariel Castro, his daughter has just stopped talking to CNN's Laurie Seagall about her father's horrifying secret life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGIE GREGG, ARIEL CASTRO'S DAUGHTER: Everything is making sense now. It's all adding up. And I'm -- I'm disgusted. I'm horrified.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Much more of that extraordinary interview in a moment.
Also, Ariel Castro confesses. A law enforcement source says the man accused of abducting and abusing three young women, holding them prisoner in unspeakable conditions for nearly a decade has admitted at least some of his actions. No word yet on exactly what he's told authorities during his interrogations but the prosecutor in the case says he will seek to charge Ariel Castro with rape and kidnap and with aggravated murder.
That's for allegedly beating and starving Michele Knight into repeated miscarriages, a charge that could carry the death penalty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIMOTHY MCGINTY, CUYAHOGA COUNTY PROSECUTOR: The law of Ohio calls for the death penalty for those most depraved criminals who commit aggravated murder during the course of a kidnapping.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Meanwhile, the mother of Gina DeJesus says she spoke to Ariel Castro in the neighborhood as recently as last year, never suspecting her daughter was a prisoner in his house. Listen to what she told ABC News.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY RUIZ, GINA DEJESUS' MOTHER: You know how many times I've been through this street? I passed by that street. I was just two blocks and a half away from there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Tonight, I'll talk to the Cleveland reporter who had an emotional meeting with Gina in her family home today.
Also, keeping children safe from the monsters among us. Hollywood mom Jada Pinkett-Smith and her battle against human trafficking.
And I want to begin with Ariel Castro's mother and daughter speaking out tonight, expressing shock and horror at the charges against a man they thought they knew. Listen to what Angie Gregg, Ariel Castro's daughter, told CNN's Laurie Seagall just moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREGG: I got a call saying that they were found on my dad's street. So, you know, I started to wonder who it might be and then my husband, among maybe 20 other people, called and said hey, they have your dad's house taped off, they have your dad's picture and name on the news. And it was like everything crashed down. Like I just wanted to melt into the floor. Like I just --- I just wanted to die. I -- I couldn't believe it and then everything, like all these weird things that I've noticed over -- you know, over the years, like about, you know, how he kept his house locked down so tight, certain areas, and you know, how if we would be out at my grandma's having dinner, he would disappear for -- you know, for an hour or so, and then come back and there would be no explanation where he went.
Like it's -- everything is making sense now. It's all adding up and I'm just -- I'm disgusted. I'm horrified.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: You can see that full interview at 10:00 on "AC 360." And earlier today, Ariel Castro's mother, Lillian Rodriguez, told "The Guardian" she thinks her son is sick and she asked forgiven forgiveness from the young women and their families. She spoke in Spanish but her heartbreak is clear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LILLIAN RODRIGUEZ, MOTHER OF ARIEL CASTRO: I'll tell you, I have a sick son who has committed something very grave. I'm suffering very much. I ask forgiveness to those mothers, may those young ladies forgive me. I suffer because they suffered. I'm suffering over my son's pain. My son is sick and I have nothing to do with what my son did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Now we go to Ed Gallek of WOIO and CNN's Pamela Brown, live for us in Cleveland.
Let me start with you, Pamela, if I may, because there is this breaking news that you've got from your sources that Ariel Castro may have made some confessions to the police. PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Piers. We've known that Ariel Castro has been cooperating with authorities. He's been interviewed by them for the past couple of days. Federal authorities, local police and prosecutors, and now we're learning from one of my law enforcement sources with first-hand knowledge of this investigation that he has confessed to at least some of his actions.
His confessions came in detailed statements during interrogations with authorities. At this point, though, we don't know the specifics of the confessions due to the sensitivity of the investigation. My source was reluctant to convey that information. But we know, Piers, that he faces four counts of kidnapping, three counts of rape.
We heard from the prosecutor today during the initial appearance that he sexually assaulted, he abused these women, kidnapped them, and then we have the initial incident report from police talking about how he kept the women chained in his basement and punched them in the stomach.
So it appears at this point that there is mounting evidence, but we don't know the specifics of the confessions that he has made to authorities.
MORGAN: And on this particular point, Pamela, about the aggravated murder, which may well relate to him effectively forcing Michele Knight by starving her, and then beating her, to have repeated miscarriages, that is a pretty significant charge, isn't it?
BROWN: It is, and we heard from the prosecutor earlier today saying that they are certainly going to look into that to see what the capability is for that. Are they able to press murder charges for -- if he did do what we heard about in that initial incident report, cause miscarriages, starving Michele Knight, punching her in the stomach to abort these babies. So it will be interesting to see if more charges do come out. It appears at this point that that will happen, that we will be seeing more charges.
MORGAN: Right. Let's turn to you, Ed Gallek. The -- I guess one of the most important questions here is, are there other women, other young women that he's captured, kidnapped, maybe even killed, and you spoke today to the Ohio attorney general, Mike DeWine. Tell me about that.
ED GALLEK, WOIO, CLEVELAND: Well, the A.G. got the DNA from Ariel Castro just late this afternoon and incredibly, by tomorrow morning, the A.G. expects to have DNA test results against a data base checking to see if this guy comes up as a match for any other unsolved crimes anywhere in the country. That is lightning quick. But they expect to make it happen quickly because it's such a big case.
MORGAN: Now we saw Ariel Castro in court today for the first time. What are your sources telling you about his condition? How he's faring now that obviously the game is up and he is the one in chains and he is the one facing a pretty horrendous time?
GALLEK: Well, it all comes down to how much of this you believe is real and how much of it you believe is just him maybe faking it. He's right up there in the county jail, got moved there this morning. And now the county jail has him in what's called a security suicide precaution.
Now most of us would call that a suicide watch. So what that means is he's in a small cell by himself. There's a guard watching him 24/7. There's another guard watching the whole pod of cells in that area of the jail as well. So basically, he's under a suicide watch, if you want to call it that, and all of a sudden now he's, quote, "despondent", so this monster as police are describing him, spends years chaining up women, beating them, raping them, and now all of a sudden, he's despondent.
MORGAN: And Ed, coming out of the police as well, a leaked part of the report, provisional report, are details of the actual kidnappings themselves. What can you tell me about that from your sources?
GALLEK: Well, one thing I just learned that's very eerie is all of the girls were kidnapped from the same general area. We knew that. But Michele Knight, she got kidnapped and then she lived not far from an elementary school. Ariel Castro was a school bus driver. He recently got fired for parking his school bus for a long time at that elementary school. It didn't belong there. That elementary school just a couple of blocks away from where Michele Knight lived, where she had lived.
So is there a connection? Who knows. But that's very eerie and investigators are very much interested in that because why would he park the bus there and that's just right around the corner, actually a couple of blocks away, from where Michele Knight lived.
MORGAN: But the belief from police, Ed, finally, is that all three women were lured into his car in different locations and then taken back to his house?
GALLEK: That's correct. And Amanda Berry's case, for example, she worked at a Burger King so one day she's walking home. This guy comes up, turns out to be Ariel, she says, and at that time she didn't know him, and he offers her a ride, says my son works at that Burger King. She felt some comfort there, she got in with him. Then Gina DeJesus, as the story she tells police goes, she was walking home, Ariel Castro pulls up with his daughter, they speak for a minute, this guy takes his daughter home, he comes back by himself and gets Gina into the car, saying we're all going to meet up and they never did.
In fact, this is one of the things that I still carry around in my bag of reports. For 10 years I carried this report around. This is the original missing persons report of the Gina DeJesus case. Ten years old, coffee stained, tattered, and I always thought that someday this case might break.
Now I don't want to hear anybody say we always knew it would end like this. No, people always thought this case might end. Nobody predicted it would end like this.
MORGAN: Ed, extraordinary reporting. Thank you very much indeed for joining me again.
Ariel Castro had earlier brushes with the law but nobody suspected the horror that was allegedly going on behind the closed doors of his house.
Joining me now is James Simone. He's a retired Cleveland police officer who pulled over Ariel Castro five years ago.
Thank you so much for joining me, Mr. Simone. You are the man that we saw in this dash cam video which shows you pulling over Ariel Castro. Tell me about that moment and what happened next.
JIM SIMONE, RET. CLEVELAND POLICE OFFICER: I was southbound on Pearl Road approaching Gunnison and Mr. Castro passed me on the right. It probably wasn't the smartest thing he ever did. As he went by me I noticed his license plate was improperly displayed. I followed him into the gas station and committed a traffic stop.
MORGAN: And he seemed remarkably calm given what we now know about what he was doing. Is that how you found him? Was he in person more agitated?
SIMONE: Well, actually, he was arrestable. He didn't have a license to operate a motorcycle and normally I would arrest people for that, but he was very polite and he explained to me he was a school bus driver, so if I had physically arrested him and towed his bike there was a good possibility he might have lost his job as a school bus driver, so I took that into consideration and I made him -- I gave him a couple of tickets, I made him push the bike all the way home.
MORGAN: Well, we actually I think have some footage of him later -- later footage. There he is walking this bike about a mile, we think, home to his house. I suppose the obvious question for you, Mr. Simone, is have you -- in light of what's happened, do you regret not arresting him? Do you think if you had arrested him potentially you could have got into that house and found out what he was doing?
SIMONE: I reflected on this many times since Monday, and actually, if I had arrested him, I would have cuffed him, put him in the car, I towed his motorcycle away and I took him to jail. There'd been no reason to go to his house. And in addition, these girls were chained inside. It's a good thing that I let him go, actually. At least I know that they got fed and weren't alone locked up in that house without him. Especially since there was a small baby involved.
MORGAN: Did you remember -- when this all came out on Monday, did you remember when you saw pictures of this man that you had had this encounter with him?
SIMONE: Well, actually, no. What happened, I was at dinner and it was on TV, and didn't ring any bells until the media contacted me. And I have at my house, about 3,000 videos. I videotaped the last 18 years of my career. And when they called me, they knew I would have the video, they knew I would have a copy of the ticket. So I went home, I researched it, I found the copy of the ticket on the stop and I pulled the video and I watched it. And that was him. MORGAN: Finally, where were you when you personally found out? That these girls had been found?
SIMONE: I was at dinner with the family. And we were at this restaurant having dinner, and it came on the news, everybody in the restaurant stood up, applauded, started hugging each other. And then they came out that they were all alive. So it was a great day for me. I know it was a great day for them and a great day for the Cleveland Police Department.
MORGAN: Just on the Cleveland Police Department, and briefly if you don't mind, but do you feel there's any merit to the criticism that some people are leveling at the department, the fact that these three different missing girl cases all turned out to be at the same place, they had been tortured and raped and kidnapped and kept there for 10 years, do you believe that the police in any way dropped the ball in the investigation?
SIMONE: Well, the reality of life is everybody can do my job better than me. They all watched "NCIS" and "Cops" on TV. They all know all about police work. But the reality is, we did all the things that we could physically do and we're controlled by the Constitution. We just can't go booting somebody's door down because we suspect there may be a crime taking place.
I drove by this house probably a thousand times and had no idea what was going on inside. Because if I had any idea, I certainly would have rectified it.
MORGAN: Officer Simone, a very good point to make. Thank you very much indeed for joining me.
SIMONE: Thank you.
MORGAN: We haven't seen Gina DeJesus since she was freed but Lydia Esparra has. The reporter from WOIO in Cleveland spoke to Gina and her family today. And Lydia joins me now.
Lydia, thank you for joining me.
LYDIA ESPARRA, REPORTER, 19 ACTION NEWS: No problem, Piers. Good evening.
MORGAN: How is Gina and how are the family?
ESPARRA: I have spoken to the family, I spoke to Nancy, her mom, today. She's doing great. I saw Gina briefly. She looks happy. She looks excited to be home. And actually, according to Nancy, she's stronger. She's stronger than most of the family and she is. She's just an amazing young woman and you would never know to look at her that she went through something so horrific.
MORGAN: And she was so young when she was taken. How did she look physically? I mean, did she look like she'd been through 10 years of absolute hell? ESPARRA: She actually doesn't. As you know, she disappeared when she was 14. That -- she's a teenager and now she's a woman at 23. So as you know, women go through changes. You're a little, you know, you have some pudginess when you're a teen and then you become a woman and you kind of straighten out. And she looks like this beautiful young woman and you can't even tell that something so bad happened in her life. She's just going on as usual and she looks beautiful.
MORGAN: I understand that one of the strange aspects about her time in captivity is she's forgotten how to speak Spanish, how to understand Spanish, is that right?
ESPARRA: Yes, that is -- that's the case. This is what happened when I was invited into the home, which I was, by Nancy. I was invited into her home. I was doing a live shot and right in between my live shot, a family member comes over and says Nancy wants you to come to the house, so I told my station, I can't finish the live shot, Nancy's calling me.
So I go over there and I say hi to Nancy. She takes me in to see Gina, and one of her relatives came over and started speaking Spanish, and Gina looks at her mom and she says, mom, I don't remember Spanish. And that would make sense, if you're being held in a basement for nine years because, as anyone knows, if you have a second language, which I do, you have to practice it every single day and apparently she wasn't.
MORGAN: Right. How do they feel collectively as a family about the fact that Ariel Castro seemed to have put himself right near them quite regularly through the 10-year period, even bringing apparently this young girl that was born into captivity to church, where the family were. Really creepy, chilling behavior. How do they feel about that aspect of it?
ESPARRA: Well, interesting, I did talk to Nancy about it, and some of the relatives, and they told me that he actually appeared at the vigils that they were at because she had nine of them, and he would just stand there like concerned along with everyone else, and they -- they were concerned.
When I initially talked to Nancy, she's upset that it's a family friend and not only her, the entire area, the entire community, this man lived and walked among us, and nobody suspected anything. In fact, I'm from this area, I'm from the Youngstown area, and I go to church there and we have our church festival and the band he was playing in was at our church festival, so when I saw his picture, I knew who he was.
And I still couldn't believe this was the man that they're suspecting of doing this to these three beautiful young ladies.
MORGAN: Did you ever see the young child who was born to Amanda Berry?
ESPARRA: I have not. I have been working with Gina's family for nine years, so I have been at Gina's house for the last, I don't know, 48 -- I don't even know how many hours I've been there. So I've been with her family and honestly I don't even know what's going on with the rest of the case. I know basically what I'm hearing from my crews. I basically know what's going on with the family because I'm out there camped out with the rest of the media and obviously, I get a chance to talk to Nancy and Felix, because not only am I a journalist, but I'm friends of theirs.
After doing this story for nine years, we developed a friendship and we're pretty close, and I feel privileged to be a part of this. Privileged that they let me in to see Gina and part of their family and a part of just this whole process that they're going through. They're an amazing, amazing family with such courage.
MORGAN: They seem so strong. And just finally, Lydia, you gave Gina the one thing perhaps that will bring her up to speed on everything she missed. A whole collection of "People" magazines, I hear.
ESPARRA: I did. I was at the store today and she was on there and I -- oh, hey, Gina, I have this for you. I gave her "People" magazine. And I had some clippings and some things that I had collected over the years that I would leave on my news desk, and a lot of this things were mementos when we were on the vigils and I would keep them on my desk to remind myself that she was missing, to remind myself to call, to call Nancy, and so I wanted her to see it.
And I asked her, did you see anything -- any of this stuff yet, she goes, I've seen some of it, and I wanted to show her, and then just through the chaos of everybody coming in and out and me coming in and out and talking to the family, I never got around to it. So eventually, I will show her and give it to her if she'd like it.
MORGAN: Great. Lydia, thank you very much indeed.
Coming next, who is Ariel Castro? I talked live to a mother and daughter who know the suspect accused of this horrendous crime.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why you covering your face? What do you have to say to those women? How could you do that? What kind of monster does this?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Covering his face in shame, but Ariel Castro can't hide from the world now. What kind of person, though, would do such a thing and how could he get away with it for so long?
Daisy Cortez and her daughter Bianca Cruz knew Ariel Castro and joining me now.
Welcome to you both. Daisy, if I may start with you, and to put in context the background between you and Ariel Castro, you lived in Cleveland from 1988 to 2005 and your late fiance, Roberto, was the leader of the band that he played in, is that right?
DAISY CORTES, KNOWS ARIEL CASTRO: Yes. Yes.
MORGAN: You got to know Ariel Castro well. What kind of man is he?
CORTES: Well, I knew him through 2002, 2003, 2004, during this period. I was working in TV and radio, I was covering the news, the story, and when I was attending the event with director of the band, I was having a lot of time to spend with him, too, during the break time. Very normal person, very, you know, peaceful, relaxed, friendly, and to me, he's the kind of man that he (INAUDIBLE), you know, and I'm still in shock about all this news. I was sharing also this story with him about the missing girls in Cleveland and here he kidnapped her, you know, in 2003 and I was standing next to him sharing this story.
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: Right. I was going to say -- right, because you were -- you were a Spanish TV anchor in Cleveland. You were actually reporting on the disappearance of Michele Knight and Amanda Berry.
CORTES: Yes.
MORGAN: But you also discussed these stories with Ariel Castro.
CORTES: Yes. Yes. Yes. He was not emotional at all. When I was telling him, you know, about the girl, what happened, and he just -- because he's the type of man, he talk with his eyes. No emotion at all. He just said oh, wow, wow, nothing. But I was talking with someone that to me was a very nice person because that's the way he was looking. If he have another personality, I just know the personality, that side of him. But one thing, you know, after that, when I see the news this week, that was horrible and so scary. I can't even sleep the whole week.
MORGAN: Yes. And let me ask you, Bianca, you were 9 at the time that these girls went missing, I believe, and you have memories of Ariel Castro actually stroking your hair and stuff like that. Tell me about that.
BIANCA CRUZ, KNOWS ARIEL CASTRO: Well, I actually remember a lot of things. I remember always going to the concerts and spending time with the band backstage. Every time he'd come to greet me, he'd actually stroke my hair, stroke my shoulder, to say hi to me but it was more than just once. It was at a couple of the shows. I say a couple of the shows because a lot of the shows in 2003 he was a no- show.
He wouldn't call, he wouldn't show up. So -- but most of the times when he did see me, it was always him playing with my hair, him being super nice to me. You just wouldn't picture it. You wouldn't imagine he'd do something like this.
MORGAN: How do you feel about what he was doing that seemed so harmless at the time, given what you now know he's been accused of doing?
CRUZ: Harmless at the time, but now, Monday night when I found out about this all, there's really no words to describe how I feel. Creeped out, disgusted. I feel like I was in harm's way back then. I feel extremely lucky that I wasn't put in the position that these girls were, although I'm overjoyed for them being found. I'm also blessed to know that, you know, it just -- it didn't happen to me because it could have.
CORTES: Yes.
MORGAN: Absolutely. Yes. A very -- a very lucky escape, I think.
Going to have to leave it there. Daisy and Bianca, thank you both very much for joining me. Sorry. Did you want to say something, Daisy, quickly? OK. Thank you very much.
CORTES: No, I just want to share with you the --
MORGAN: It's OK. Daisy, finish what you want to say. Yes.
CORTES: Oh, OK, I'm sorry. I just want to share with you in 2004, in January 31st, 2004, when the leader of the band died in a car accident, he was the first person to call me for the condolence, and he said, well, I'm here for you, you need me, I'm here for you. Thank God I moved here, you know, in 2005 to start my life because if I was in Cleveland, I don't know what was going to happen. Probably my daughter would be the next victim of him. Scary.
MORGAN: It could well have been. A very, very scary thought indeed.
Thank you very much to Daisy and to Bianca. Appreciate it.
Coming next, inside the man -- mind of Ariel Castro. I'll ask expert criminal profilers how anyone could live such a horrific secret life.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would see him and he would say, how are you doing?
NANCY RUIZ, GINA DEJESUS' MOTHER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like nothing was wrong.
RUIZ: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's chilling.
RUIZ: It is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the while he had your daughter.
RUIZ: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: The mother of Gina DeJesus speaking about the man who many consider a monster. Ariel Castro led an incredible double life. Apparently not one of his friends, family members or anyone in the outside world seemed to know he allegedly kept three women hostage for 10 years. With me now is John Ryan, the CEO of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
John Ryan, it's a really extraordinary disturbing case. Have you ever heard anything quite like this in all the time you've been investigating this kind of thing?
JOHN RYAN, NATIONAL CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: Unfortunately, yes, Piers. As you know, the case of Jaycee Dugard, she was held captive for almost 18 years. And during the course of that captivity, she gave birth to two children. And also a case out of New York in 1993, a woman by the name of Katie Bears (ph), she was 10 years old at the time. She was abducted by an individual known to her family. And he had actually built a dungeon in his basement, in the same community, and hid her there for over 17 days before police were able to rescue her.
So yes, we've seen these cases, but it's horrible and there are too many.
MORGAN: But in terms of the scale of this one, where you have three young women independently kidnapped at different periods of time, all taken back to the same house and then kept for a decade in the most appalling depravity, it really propels Ariel Castro, if he's convicted of all the crimes that he has been charged with, as one of the great sexual predators and monsters of modern American times, isn't it?
RYAN: I agree with you, Piers. What is unusual about this case is you have apparently, according to the police investigation so far, one offender with three separate victims, all being held captive in one venue for that extended period of time. So that clearly is unusual.
MORGAN: You obviously in your organization had a number of leads on all these young women, particularly Amanda and Gina. Do you think, from your expert eye, that the Cleveland Police dropped the ball here? Because they had a previous case with the Cleveland Strangler, who killed 11 women, and they were widely criticized over that. And here again, you've got three different investigations all being solved at the same time by accident, really. Do you think they deserve some criticism, the police? RYAN: Frankly, Piers, from what -- our own interaction with the police, both the local police and the FBI, that wasn't the case. We actually at the National Center hosted a comprehensive case review in November 2008, in which we assembled the Cleveland investigators. We also included some forensic experts, a few behavioral analysts from the FBI, and some other subject matter experts.
So we know the investigators in this case. It was always active. And they were pursuing leads. In Amanda's case, we generated, from our end, over 150 leads that was shared with law enforcement. And with Gina's case, over 84 leads over the nine years she was held captive. So all those leads were shared with law enforcement. And we have every reason to believe they tracked each and every one of those down.
MORGAN: From all that we're hearing about Ariel Castro, and on the assumption -- we hear he's already confessing to various things. On the assumption that he is convicted of this, what is he, do you think? Is he a sociopath? Is he a depraved sex addict, a phrase that himself used, apparently, in a note? Is he just pure evil? What is he?
RYAN: There are many terms we could apply to him. But I think clearly he is a sexual predator who preyed upon the most vulnerable, and that's children. So I think that captures it all.
MORGAN: John Ryan, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
Coming up next, trying to make the case against Ariel Castro. I will talk about it with Alan Dershowitz and Gloria Allred.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MORGAN: Now the case against Ariel Castro. Prosecutors say they may seek murder charges against him that carry a possible death penalty. Joining me for more are attorneys Alan Dershowitz and Gloria Allred. Welcome to you both. Let me start with you, Alan, if I may.
The most interesting aspect of these charges may well turn out to be the aggravated murder involving the abortions which he is accused of forcing Michelle Knight to have by starving her and then beating her. What do you make of that part of what he may be facing?
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It would be a very stupid decision on the part of prosecutors. It would turn this horrible rape case and abuse case into a debate over abortion, over whether or not fetuses are alive and can be murdered. That's not the kind of debate we want to have in this case.
What we want to do is make sure that this man never sees the light of day again, that he's prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But to make this an experimental case, a new case -- you know the old expression hard cases make bad law. It would be a terrible abuse of prosecutorial authority to charge this man with murder for the horrendous acts he took in killing -- yes, killing fetuses that he had brought into life. It may make moral sense, but it makes no legal or political prosecutorial sense at all.
MORGAN: Gloria, what do you say?
GLORIA ALLRED, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Absolutely, I disagree with Alan, respectfully, of course, because the Ohio statute -- and I have reviewed it, 2903.01, talks about no person shall purposely and with prior calculation and design cause the unlawful termination of a pregnancy. So I don't think that it's necessary to get into whether or not the fetus is, in fact, a baby or not.
It talks about the unlawful termination of a pregnancy. And of course, that's not a voluntary abortion. A woman has a right to choose whether she will terminate a pregnancy. But no other person has a right to force her to terminate a pregnancy. So I think that the charge of aggravated murder is definitely one that can be charged. And we'll find out whether the facts support it.
Allegedly, one of the women, one of the victims, is saying that he terminated her pregnancy, caused her to have to terminate it at least five times.
DERSHOWITZ: But that statute would equally apply to late term voluntary abortion, which is unlawful in most states. And I guarantee you this will turn into a debate about abortion. And it's just not the kind of debate we need to have. The crimes are so serious that to introduce this highly emotional, highly charged debate about whether an abortion statute -- and that's what this statute is now that abortion of course is legal in the first and perhaps the second trimester. It doesn't apply to most abortions, but it would apply to late term unlawful abortions. It's just the wrong debate to have on this horrible case.
MORGAN: Gloria, let's just move quickly to another aspect of this, which is his potential confessing that's going on to the police today. CNN has been reporting that he's made some partial confessions already to some of the crimes. Should he do a full mea culpa to regular raping and the kidnaps obviously and other crimes involving battery with these women, would that preclude any need for a trial? Would that be it?
ALLRED: Well, I mean, I don't know whether the prosecutors are going to even offer him a plea. If they did offer him a plea, what they would offer him a plea to. His crimes are so horrendous, these ones that are alleged to have occurred, that it's really hard for me to think of anything short of life in prison without the possibility of parole being offered, possibly in lieu of seeking the death penalty on an aggravated murder charge.
DERSHOWITZ: I agree, except that he might try to plead insanity or some kind of diminished capacity. But other than that, if he's confessed and if he was Mirandized and they got an appropriate confession, there's not much left to litigate.
MORGAN: Right. Very quickly, Alan, turn to Jodi Arias. The trial was postponed today until next Wednesday, when we may learn whether she gets the death penalty or not. Why would it be delayed that long, do you think?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, you know, preparing for a death penalty case is very complex. In fact, I was quite surprised when the judge yesterday scheduled the death phase to begin so quickly, particularly with the weekend coming up. Normally you would give the defense the opportunity to digest a very, very unpalatable verdict for them and to prepare to shift gears. Because in the death phase, you essentially have to admit the crime. You have to acknowledge responsibility for it and you need time to be able to shift.
So I'm not surprised that there's been a delay. It's a good thing.
MORGAN: OK. We'll find out next Wednesday.
ALLRED: We don't know, however, if the delay was one the defense wanted.
MORGAN: We have to leave it there. Sorry. Gloria, Alan, thank you both very much indeed.
Coming up next, on a mission to help women like the three in Cleveland; I'll talk to actress, activist and mom Jada Pinkett Smith on her fight to help stop human trafficking.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JADA PINKETT SMITH, ACTRESS/ACTIVIST: As you can see, victims become terrified to even speak about it. And unfortunately, a lot of times we need the testimony of our victims to actually be able to capture these people who are very, very, very dangerous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Mother, actress and activist Jada Pinkett Smith took on the cause of human trafficking long before we learned of the horrors in Cleveland. She spent time with victims like the three women rescued after being held captive for a decade. Jada works with DontSellBodies.org, and has taken the cause to Capitol Hill to raise awareness about an increasingly problematic issue in America.
Jada, good to see you.
SMITH: It's nice to see you.
MORGAN: Let's just talk, first of all, about your reaction as a mother, as someone who has been involved in trying to stop this epidemic, is what it is, of trafficking in what's happened in Cleveland, because it seems so horrific, doesn't it, on every level?
SMITH: You know, I have to tell you that the unfortunate part is that it's not -- you know, when you're part of this advocacy, unfortunately it's not something new. But I have to be honest with you, when I first heard the news, there was a sense of betrayal. There was a sense of shame. And, at first, I felt a sense of powerlessness, at first, and thinking, oh, my goodness, these are our neighbors, as I've been saying, and as so many people have been saying.
And then I realized now we can take hold of this opportunity, because now something that has seemed so unreal is such a reality for so many Americans now, because now we have seen this incident. So had a mixture of so many feelings. And I was so happy to see that these girls had been rescued and that they were alive, because there are so many women who don't make it. So then I became very joyous.
MORGAN: It's a complicated story to deal with emotionally, because we all want to feel so happy for these three women. And then when you think about what they've been through, you know, just 10 years of unrelenting horror and abuse and torment --
SMITH: Yes.
MORGAN: I fear for them, in terms of what is going to happen now in readjusting to normal life. You've dealt with many women. You've met them personally. They've not been through this particular situation, but certainly similar ones. What is the best advice, do you think?
SMITH: To the victims?
MORGAN: Yes.
SMITH: It takes time. You know, and the idea to just keep climbing and to keep having -- to keep having hope, because we can heel. Now, everybody has to make a choice to do that, though, Piers, in all honesty. And there's some women that I've come in contact with who have not only survived, but have thrived. And there's some women that I have come in contact with that have not been able to come out of the trauma.
And so, you know, it really is a personal journey. And we have to allow them to have their personal journeys. And we have to be here to support them in any way we can.
MORGAN: Every parent who has seen this story and is watching now is asking the same thing: how do I stop my child potentially being lured into something like this? You have this app called BeSafe that you've invested in. That, presumably, is part of the way that you can do this.
SMITH: Well, I actually got involved with the BeSafe App because there's a woman, Celia, who -- she's a mother. And she created this app. It's pretty much like a new 911, where you can have your guardians and you can press a button that will call 911, will call these guardians immediately. You -- there will be a GPS that starts to track you and then starts to video -- record what is happening to you right then and there, that is actually on the server.
So I really love this particular app. And she also has a mobile kids app that is fantastic. MORGAN: What do you say to your kids?
SMITH: I'm a different type of mother, in the fact that I share harsh realities with my children. I feel like I have to prepare my kids with what is really happening. And what's crazy is that Willow brought this issue to me, because I was not aware that this was happening. So the fact that she brought this issue to me has made it easier for me to have very real conversations with her about this.
And so I just educate my kids on every level as far as safety and being aware, understanding certain characteristics of people, and really being aware of what is happening around you. I think so many of us get zoned out. We're on our cell phones. We're, you know, doing so many things, and not being aware of what's going on. So it's really about educating our kids about being aware of what is happening around you.
MORGAN: Particularly with the advent of social media, too, because he was on Facebook, Ariel Castro. Many of these pedophiles, now, and abusers generally can use social media to directly target young people.
SMITH: Absolutely. So I think we also have to be able to have conversations with our kids as far as who they're communicating with through their social media. And this is about gaining a certain amount of trust with our children.
MORGAN: When you've seen -- just finally on this, when you've seen what happened here, do you think that the police and the authorities need to move quicker when girls like this go missing, and to treat all of them potentially as kidnappings? There seems to be a sense of -- at least in some of these young ladies' cases, that the police didn't move fast enough in creating the right kind of alert.
SMITH: I'll tell you what I think needs to change is the idea that sometimes in law enforcement, they will say, you know, well this is that type of girl. They'll try to identify a girl. This is the bad girl. Oh, you know, was she a party girl? Did she have a boyfriend? Maybe she ran off with the boyfriend, dah, dah, dah, dah, all of that kind of stuff.
I think that police officers will start to have more training to understand that we can't generalize in those ways anymore, and that we have to start taking all of these cases very seriously. And yes, I do believe that we should first start with this could possibly be a kidnapping. That would be my wish, for sure.
MORGAN: I totally agree. Jada, thank you so much for coming in. The BeSafe app is at the app store. Look for Jada's film "Rape for Profit," on iTunes later this year. And for more information on human trafficking, check out DontSellBodies.org. Lovely to see you. Thanks for coming in.
SMITH: It's so nice to see you. Thank you for all that you do.
MORGAN: Thank you. Jada Pinkett Smith. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MORGAN: Tomorrow, inside the mind of a monster. A special PIERS MORGAN LIVE on Ariel Castro and his Cleveland house of horrors. That's all for us tonight. Anderson Cooper starts right now.
