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Piers Morgan Live
The Hunt for Edward Snowden; The Case against Snowden; George Zimmerman Trial; Heart Disease Warning; Gamer Gun Fires Like Assault Rifle
Aired June 24, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: NSA leaker Edward Snowden. Rudy Giuliani is here live to tell me what he thinks we should do about countries that help Snowden.
Plus the doctor is in. Dr. Oz in "The Chair." Why he says James Gandolfini's death should be a wakeup call for the rest of us.
Also blockbuster opening day. Why we can't let you hear what the prosecutor said in the Trayvon Martin case today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN GUY, PROSECUTOR IN GEORGE ZIMMERMAN TRIAL: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks, these (EXPLETIVE DELETED), they always get away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Legalese Alan Dershowitz and Gloria Allred on shocking developments in the George Zimmerman trial.
And is this toy gun too realistic? The man who invented it is on "The Grill" tonight.
We begin tonight with international uproar over NSA leader Edward Snowden. Joining me now is Rudy Giuliani, the former mayor of New York City.
Rudy, how are you?
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: I'm good. How are you, Piers?
MORGAN: Well, I'm good, but I don't know what to make of all of this. And I want you to clarify how I should be feeling because it's interesting. On my Twitter feed today, I would say half the people want Edward Snowden brought back and slung in Guantanamo for 30 years.
GIULIANI: Right
MORGAN: And the other half think he's some kind of hero. What is the correct view, do you think if you --
GIULIANI: Well, I don't -- I don't know. (CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: Especially now what he's done.
GIULIANI: I never thought he was much of a hero because I think, you know, you take an obligation to keep things secret, and you should live by that obligation, and work through channels. But at least at the beginning there was this sort of argument that he was revealing a program that a lot of people didn't know about, a lot of people in Congress didn't know about, but to go to China, to go to Russia, to now seem to be organizing to go to Cuba and Ecuador. This is a guy who's in favor of free speech? You've got to be kidding me. Right?
MORGAN: Right. But this --
(CROSSTALK)
GIULIANI: I mean, this is some of the most --
MORGAN: This is my issue. This is my issue, Rudy.
GIULIANI: This guy is a joke.
MORGAN: You hit the nail right on the head. Well, that's the thing but let's come -- let's come to what he's done since he did all this, in a moment. Let's start first of all with his original action of leaking the information in the first place. Do you think there is a reasonable defense for putting into the public domain the material that he reasonably judiciously chose to put out there?
GIULIANI: There's -- there really isn't a legal defense, there's an emotional defense. I mean, there would be people -- like you said, half the people that are tweeting are telling you, oh, he was revealing a secret that should be revealed. Legally --
MORGAN: Is there a public interest defense?
GIULIANI: You can try all that. If you would have tried this just basically on the law and he gets convicted in a second, right? I mean, he took -- he took an oath of office --
MORGAN: But he's admitted that. He's admitted that he broke the law. So that's what I think -- I think there are two issues here with him. One is, he came out and said, look, I know what I've done is a crime. But I believe it's in the public interest to have this out there. And if you just judge him on that, I feel a lot more sympathy with him than I do since he went globetrotting to China, Russia, and possibly Cuba.
GIULIANI: He didn't want to take that gamble, I guess. I mean, I agree with you, I think the chances of his being convicted, even though legally he's absolutely clearly guilty. His chances of being convicted are about equal to your -- to the texts you're getting, you know, 50/50. He would have had a shot at a strong emotional appeal to the jury. By having done what he's done, you know, first of all, running off to China, making these additional allegations about the United States hacking China, which may not even be true. And trying to appeal to these countries that are, you know, obviously very, very oppressive in the areas in which he's supposedly criticizing us.
I mean, the United States is paradise compared to China, Russia, Ecuador and Cuba, with regard to the press and with regard to secrecy and transparency.
MORGAN: Right. And the other thing, I mean, Donald Trump tweeted today that this whole journey of adventure that Mr. Snowden's gone on makes America look soft. Do you agree with that? Is there any more that the president should be doing to try and bring him to justice?
GIULIANI: Well, I think the president is doing everything he can to bring him to justice. I don't know what else he can do. I mean, he's using the legal system. He's relying on -- I mean, I think his best chance in Hong Kong with which we have a very good relationship and with which we've done a great deal of interchange legally over the years. I remember doing it when I was U.S. attorney.
It also turns out that we have extradition treaties with Ecuador and Cuba. And we've actually done some exchanges with Cuba. So I mean, I hope the Justice Department is working behind the scenes to try to get this guy because now it is affecting the credibility of the United States. We're looking like --
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: Right, and one of -- one of the problems is that these other nations for perfectly self-interested reasons don't want to play ball.
Let's watch what Jay Carney said today from the White House about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We're just not buying that this was a technical decision by a Hong Kong immigration official. This was a deliberate choice by the government to release a fugitive, despite a valid arrest warrant and that decision unquestionably has a negative impact on the U.S./China relationship.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: You were chuckling there, Rudy.
GIULIANI: I don't know if --
(CROSSTALK)
GIULIANI: I don't know if I agree with Jay Carney. But I agree with him completely. Obviously this was not a -- this was not a technical -- technically, legally, they should have complied with our request. There was nothing wrong with our request. I've done many, many extraditions. This was perfectly legitimate extradition. It should have been complied with. They don't have a right to really, you know, second guess our laws.
And the reality is, nine times out of 10, this guy would have been returned to us by Hong Kong. So this had to be China --
MORGAN: If Edward Snowden's name was Lee Chung and he came from Shanghai with four laptops full of China's great secrets, can you handle -- Rudy, say, that the American administration would have said, off you go, mate, back you go, we're handing you straight back without wanting to at least try and maximize the situation --
GIULIANI: Yes --
MORGAN: -- for political gain and perhaps even intelligence?
GIULIANI: I think we would. You know, I can't say for sure, Piers, but I think we would. It'd be different if he was spying on us. If we caught -- if we caught somebody from China, Russia, Ecuador, Cuba spying in the United States, obviously we're not going to -- we're not going to return them.
But if he had revealed their secrets, you know, if he had -- if he had made revelations about, you know, China's programs, illegally, and China wanted him back, and we had a sense that he was going to be treated fairly in China, I think we'd send him -- we'd send him back. I mean, the fact is, if he's sent back to the United States he's going to be treated fairly. He's going to have a trial, he's going to have a lot of people defending him.
He's got some percentage of Americans agreeing with him right now. He's not coming back into a totally hostile environment. So there's no real -- there's no real fear of persecution if he comes back to the United States. He's going to get a trial. The government is going to have to prove he's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and he's going to have a bunch of people cheering for him.
I won't be one of them. And a lot of people would want to see him convicted. But -- but he has people supporting him.
MORGAN: You see, to me, that would have been an act of genuine personal heroism by him. If he'd said, look, I'm going to reveal this, I know what's coming my way, I'll take my chances in the American court. I will appeal directly to the American people in that trial and I would tell them why I did this.
There's a lot of people who felt his original information that he released through Glenn Greenwald of "The Guardian" and others was legitimately in the public interest to be exposed. Now he is seen as somebody who is going to the very countries which, you know, fly completely against all he stands for, and trying to get their help. Now that's where he misplayed it.
GIULIANI: I -- I don't agree that his original actions were justified correct and legal. I think they were -- I think they were illegal and wrong. I don't think we elected Mr. Greenwald to decide what should be classified and what shouldn't be classified. When we start doing that, an awful lot of Americans are going to die because mistakes are going to be made. And his original revelations have probably put a lot of Americans in jeopardy.
But in any event, he certainly had a more justifiable case if he had stayed here and fought his case here. Now here's a guy that wants to be a hero with the First Amendment going to countries that persecute people. Hey, you know, in Russia, there are people that have been killed for criticizing the government. We're talking about countries that desecrate the First Amendment and he's seeking their help and their assistance. So to me this guy is a total phony.
MORGAN: Rudy Giuliani, always good to talk to you. Thank you.
GIULIANI: Thank you.
MORGAN: So how strong is the case against Edward Snowden? Alan Dershowitz and Gloria Allred are here to discus that, along an extraordinary first day in the George Zimmerman trial.
Alan Dershowitz, let me start with you on this. I once went a Segway, and something I didn't ask Rudy, but I want to ask you. There's been a big fuss about Glenn Greenwald being asked whether he had aided and abetted Edward Snowden in any way that could possibly be criminal. Let's watch what happened when he had this encounter on "Meet the Press."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID GREGORY, MODERATOR, NBC'S "MEET THE PRESS: To the extent that you have aided and abetted Snowden, even in his current movements, why shouldn't you, Mr. Greenwald, be charged with a crime?
GLENN GREENWALD, COLUMNIST, THE GUARDIAN: I think it's pretty extraordinary that anybody who would call themself a journalist would publicly muse about whether or not other journalists should be charged with felonies. The assumption in your question, David, is completely without evidence, the idea that I've aided and abetted him in any way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: You see, look, I'm a journalist. I've been a journalist for nearly 30 years. I find it extraordinary that a journalist would be complaining about a journalist asking him what seemed to be a perfectly reasonable question. That Edward Snowden, as I said, have committed -- committed a serious crime, the newspaper has put this out there. Surely he should be prepared to answer questions about whether anything they have done in cahoots with this guy, we don't know how far it goes, anything they've done borders on criminality.
I think it's a perfectly reasonable question.
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ATTORNEY: Well, it doesn't border on criminality. It's right in the heartland of criminality. The statute itself does publish the publication of classified material if you know that it's classified. And so Greenwald in my view clearly has committed a felony. And for him to take umbrage at the question. Now, he's right, though, that the government doesn't usually go after the publishers, they don't go after "The New York Times," the "Washington Post" in the Pentagon papers case, though they could have.
They don't go after other newspapers in the WikiLeaks case, though they could have. They've made a discretionary decision to go after the leaker but not the publisher. But look, Greenwald is a total phony. He is anti-American, he loves tyrannical regimes, and he did this because he hates America. This had nothing to do with publicizing information. He never would have written this article if they had --
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: Let me throw this to --
DERSHOWITZ: -- public material about wanting to --
MORGAN: Let me throw this to Gloria. Look. I -- you've expressed this view of him before, I actually quite admire Glenn Greenwald. I like those kind of renegade, more blogger than journalist journalists, guys who just put it out there and are provocative and are polarizing. And, you know, I don't see him as an enemy of America.
However, Gloria --
(CROSSTALK)
DERSHOWITZ: But he's an ideologue --
MORGAN: There is an issue here of him refusing -- OK, Alan, let me just ask Gloria.
What do you make of all this? I mean, are the journalists remotely involved in any sort of criminal activity here? Or should we just be focusing on Snowden himself?
GLORIA ALLRED, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, I mean I think a journalist has the power and the right to ask any question that they want. And of course the person who is being interviewed in this case, Mr. Greenwald, has the power of not answering the question or answering it however he wants to. And it's bizarre that he's really upset that that question is being asked.
It's an obvious question. I wouldn't necessarily call Mr. Greenwald a journalist, I would think of a journalist as someone who is neutral. I see Mr. Greenwald as more of an advocate, defending his source, almost acting as a lawyer for his source. And --
MORGAN: Don't all journalists do that in the end? I mean, they do. I -- most journalists defend their source.
Let's move on from this. It's an interesting point, I think Glenn Greenwald should just calm down a bit, accept he's going to be asked tough questions. Deal with it. Because a lot of people agree with what he's doing, some people equally, vigorously do not. Let's move on to the Trayvon Martin case. Because it was a -- it was a strange day and let me start with you, Gloria, on this one. In the sense that the defense guy, Don West, decided to suddenly crack a very inappropriate joke which set a very odd mood, I thought, for the day. Listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON WEST, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Knock, knock. Who's there? George Zimmerman. George Zimmerman who? All right, good, you're on the jury. Nothing? That's funny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Right. Well, the whole point was, it wasn't funny, that's why nobody was laughing. If you contrast this with this clip, which is what the prosecution did, let's watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUY: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks, these (EXPLETIVE DELETED), they always get away. Those were the words in that man's chest, when he got out of his car armed with a fully loaded semiautomatic pistol and two flashlights.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Gloria, your reaction today to both of those moments but also the day in totality.
ALLRED: Well, I think that the opening statement by the prosecutor, Piers, was very, very strong, passionate, well-organized, backed up by the facts that they say that they will put into evidence. And that was in stark contrast, of course, to the defense.
That joke was obviously a misplaced joke, attempt at humor. Perhaps he was trying to bond with the jury and what they've been through. But I think it backfired on him. A case involving a charge of second- degree murder is not a case where a joke is appropriate, especially not in the opening statement, and I think it's going to hurt him.
MORGAN: Alan Dershowitz, there was some interesting nugget that came out. One is that George Zimmerman, who obviously is very large now, he's ballooned in weight since he's been in custody. He was apparently 200 pounds at the time. Trayvon, by contrast, was 158 pounds. So considerably lighter, and we were reminded very slight framed.
Also, you've had this tape that we just played, that was obviously we had to bleep some of it, where Zimmerman's state of mind, you could argue, is pretty set against these f-ing punks, these a-holes, as he put it, who get away with it. It would indicate a mentality of somebody who wanted to get after this guy, come what may. What did you make of it?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, first of all, if I were George Zimmerman, I would be furious at my lawyer unless the lawyer told him he was going to open with that joke. In fact, I would ask my other lawyer to make a motion for a mistrial, to start all over again. I think he has been so prejudiced by that opening with an insensitive joke in front of parents of a child who was killed. I just can't imagine a worse opening.
And, you know, you can't tell a client how to look, but putting on all that weight is not going to help him. Because his defense is going to have to be, he was weak. He was underneath a much younger and stronger man who was banging his head against the ground and that he had no choice but to take out his gun and kill him. The way he looks now, it seems to me a jury might think he could've rolled the guy over and just walked away. I think unbalanced, it has been going very badly against Zimmerman, and partly as the result of his lawyers problem.
ZIMMERMAN: Yes. I agree. Alan Dershowitz and Gloria Allred, thank you both very much indeed.
Coming up, Tavis Smiley is here. I wonder what he thinks about today's courtroom drama in the Trayvon Martin case and about these political storms battering the Obama White House. That's coming next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MORGAN: As you heard, a shocking start to the George Zimmerman trial today, with everything from expletives to knock-knock jokes. Joining me now to talk about all that and some of the other big stories of the day is Tavis Smiley, PBS broadcaster and best-selling author.
Tavis, good to see you.
TAVIS SMILEY, PBS BROADCASTER: Good to see you, Piers.
MORGAN: What was your reaction today to day one of this eagerly awaited Zimmerman- Trayvon trial today?
SMILEY: The joke was inappropriate and wasn't funny. When you have to tell the jury that was funny, then obviously, it wasn't funny. I think Alan Dershowitz is right. I would be furious with my attorney, if that's how you started out - you know, not just this trial, but where my life were hanging in the balance.
MORGAN: Tavis, do you think -- they've gone out of their way to try to park the race element to one side here. Make it more a case of a sort of local vigilante type character who's just gone after and gone into a fight with a young youth. Do you think that will sustain itself through the trial, or do you think inevitably it will turn into a race trial?
SMILEY: I think it's hard to avoid race in this trial. Johnnie Cochran said famously years ago that race is a part of everything in America. I've said many times and still believe race is the most intractable issue in this country. So, it's hard to imagine that race doesn't rear its head, even legitimately, if not in ugly ways, but certainly legitimately in this case. Having said that, I don't believe that justice delayed is justice denied, but it's taken so long for this trial to get to court, they've beaten up on Trayvon Martin so horribly in the process of these 18 months or so. So I hope justice - again, delayed will not in this case be justice denied.
MORGAN: One of the more significant things I heard today from the case was the prosecution saying that there was no evidence of any bruising on Trayvon Martin's fists, for example. Quite hard to see how George Zimmerman sustained all these injuries from a savage beating if the implements that would have created them are not bruised. Interesting how that plays out when we get into more detail.
SMILEY: It will be fascinating how that plays out. It's going to be interesting to see how the evidence that was allowed in, that's not been allowed in, how that's going to play out.
I was talking - I just finished taping my PBS show before I came to see you - for tonight. And I was talking with a number of my staff personnel today, it just so happened at this moment they were all women in my dressing room as we were transitioning from one show to the other. And this topic came up about Zimmerman. And I found it fascinating that all the persons in my company at that point said to me, given that the propensity, the number of women on this jury -- the preponderance, I should say, of the women on this jury - that women, no matter what color they are, black, brown, red or yellow, women tend to be mothers. And there is -- there's a level of empathy --
MORGAN: That's what I think is going to be key.
SMILEY: That they have that often times men don't have. So their sense is that Trayvon has a chance of getting some justice in this trial, given the number of women on the trial.
MORGAN: Well, 17 and 158 pounds. You're not talking about a natural prize fighter.
SMILEY: And mothers understand that. And they would hate to see their child subjected to that. So who knows how this is going to turn out.
MORGAN: Right, fascinating case. Let's turn quickly to the Edward Snowden case. Are you in the hero or villain camp?
SMILEY: You know, honestly, I haven't followed the case as much as others have. I was fascinated by the conversation earlier, but I really haven't been - I've been following the Trayvon Martin case much more. And certainly --
MORGAN: How much do you care about your own private data being made available to a government?
SMILEY: I care tremendously. And I think part of what's happened, beyond even the Eric (sic) Snowden case, part of what troubles me most - this I do talk about this all the time - is that in the name of national security, we now have a government that's gone too far. They're out of control. It's sad to see in the Obama era, I've said this before, so I'm on record. This is nothing new.
It troubled me that a -- that three black men, Mr. Manchin in Washington, Mr. Holder in the AG's office, the president in the White House - something is wrong. Black people have been through this before. We know better. And this kind of intrusion, this kind of digging - but even in the name of national security, it doesn't make it better because African-Americans have now arrived at this level of authority, that we engage in the same kind of activity that Dr. King, that the Black Panthers, that others were subjected to during (INAUDIBLE).
I just think our country is a bit out of control. We're a bit out of balance where civil liberties and national security are concerned. I don't like the idea that anything and everything can be done in the name of national security.
MORGAN: Right, and also, particularly when you become the president who said, I'm going to be different, I'm going to be transparent. The one thing this is not is transparent.
Let's move to Jim Carrey. Quite interesting that Jim Carrey tweeted today that he cannot promote his new movie, "Kick Ass 2," because of the level of gun violence in there. And it was finished a month before Sandy Hook, he now feels he's got to make a stand. What do you think of that?
SMILEY: I think that we all grow, we all develop. And we all come into different revelations at different points in our lives. If on this side of Sandy Hook, that's the revelation that Mr. Carrey has come to, tehn God bless him. You've been on the issue of gun control. I've talked about it so many times.
MORGAN: And to be fair to him, so is he. I've been watching his tweets since Sandy Hook. And he's been relentless about this. So it doesn't entirely surprise me. Difficult if you're on that movie because they put a lot of work into it, and obviously, he did make the movie. But an interesting case.
SMILEY: But it is disappointing, though, since I last saw you, that Congress just completely punted.
MORGAN: It's utterly shameful, isn't it? You can't even get background checks through.
SMILEY: Everybody in Washington punting. Congress punting on gun control. Supreme Court punting on affirmative action. Lot of punting going on.
MORGAN: Nobody wants to make a decision?
SMILEY: Yes.
MORGAN: And that's what they're paid to do.
Let's talk about Paula Deen quickly. She's been completely vilified, fired, dropped by sponsors, now everything else. Is it an overreaction? I mean, my immediate thought was unacceptable what she has done. If you were to actually get every American over age 55, 60 or over and put them under oath and say, have you ever used the n word in your life, it's a pretty disturbingly high number of people who would have to say yes. Is it an overreaction?
SMILEY: I'm not so sure it is. Corporations have every right to best serve their consumers, and if they think that having someone on the air who has admitted to doing this would damage their brand -- God forbid the day comes up and we discovered that you used it, CNN would have to deal with you. Or PBS would have to deal with me if I'd said something outrageous.
So, the point is that networks have to protect their own investments. And so I'm not one that sides with corporatists. But I do believe they have the right to make their own decisions.
Here's my issue with Paula Deen. Again, we're not human - we're not human and divine. We're just human. We all make mistakes. God knows I'm a cracked vessel. What I look for in the lives of fellow citizens is growth, is development. If you used it 40, 50 years ago, that's one thing. But when stories continue to come out that you've said and done that I find troubling in the last couple of years --
MORGAN: It shows a bit of a pattern.
SMILEY: The off-color jokes she did, speaking to "The New York Times," where she asked a black staffer who she makes the joke in front of a live audience, "You're so dark we can't see you stand against that wall, come out in the light where we can see you." That kind of off- color stuff just a couple of years ago in front of a New York Times audience, that's troubling for me.
So, I look for growth and development and maturity. We all fall down, we all get a chance to get up. Somebody's put it this way, that change is inevitable. But growth is optional. Everything changes, but are you growing?
MORGAN: I agree with you.
SMILEY: That's a different issue.
MORGAN: That's a good point. Now, Tavis, I want to leave by mentioning the new weekday show on Blog Talk Radio. And what a lot about this is, the show will run for 20 minutes a day, but goes on as long as you like.
SMILEY: Yes.
MORGAN: Love this!
SMILEY: I think Internet radio is the wave of the future. Blog Talk Radio has almost 20 million unique visitors every month.
MORGAN: How long could you talk for if you wanted?
SMILEY: Well, I'm no Fidel Castro - (LAUGHTER)
SMILEY: -- but I can go for a little while. But it's just - it's just having the opportunity to go live any time you want no matter what the breaking story is.
MORGAN: Well, best of luck with that. And also congratulations on the star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame I hear, which is coming your way.
SMILEY: I appreciate it.
MORGAN: A great, great honor for you, Tavis. Good to see you.
SMILEY: See you, Piers.
MORGAN: Take care.
SMILEY: Thank you, sir.
MORGAN: Coming tomorrow, Paula Deen's sons break their silence when Chris Cuomo sits down with them in an exclusive interview for "NEW DAY." That's tomorrow at 6:00 a.m. Eastern.
Coming up, the doctor is in. Dr. Oz is here talking about what killed jams Gandolfini and what we can do to alter our risk of heart disease. I also want to talk to him about the flu jab he gave me. Because I got the flu a week later, Dr. Oz.
(LAUGHTER)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MORGAN: New Jersey flags flying at half staff today marking the passing of the late great James Gandolfini. His funeral is set for Thursday in New York. The "Soprano" star dies suddenly while traveling in Italy. An autopsy confirmed he had a heart attack. Fans the world over are still shocked by his death.
And Dr. Mehmet Oz says it's a stark reminder that we're all at risk for heart disease. And Dr. Oz is in "The Chair" with me tonight.
Dr. Oz, welcome back to the show.
DR. MEHMET OZ, HOST, "THE DR. OZ SHOW": Thank you very much, Piers.
MORGAN: Obviously an incredibly sad, tragic early end to James Gandolfini's life. You, by coincidence, treated two of his "Soprano" colleagues for heart related issues. So you have a great perspective on all this.
Tell me what your reaction was when you heard the background to James Gandolfini's death.
OZ: Well, it's ironic. Fans of the show know the "Sopranos" were all about family, by taking care of the people that were dear to you and men around this country and women as well always value their families, do everything for their families, except take care of themselves. And when I first heard that he had died, that was the first thought that came to my mind.
You mentioned these two patients, actually my colleague Michael Argenziano at my hospital, New York Presbyterian, took care of one, I took care of another gentleman, Frank Vincent. And one of these wonderful human beings and they were on the cast of "The Sopranos." And while their show was on the air, they noticed very subtle symptoms, symptoms that many folks just seemed right now would have missed.
We're going to talk about them in a second. But it brought them to our attention. We were able to do life-saving surgery on them. Unfortunately that doesn't happen a lot, and when young people -- 51 is young, but it's not unnormally young, it's not unusual for people that age to have heart attacks especially lethal ones. It should put on all of our radar screens the reality that the number one cause of death in America is still here and it's still kicking.
MORGAN: Let's go through what the checklist of warning signs should be. For anybody who is looking for this, who worried about it, you know, maybe has heart issues and so on, what should they be really, really looking for?
OZ: Well, the first sign which both of these cast members had, was shortness of breath. And you may not think that's a big deal. Most folks look for chest pain. But it turns out that about half the people who have a heart attack never knew it was coming. They never realized the subtle signs have been out there because they were looking for the wrong signs.
Shortness of breath, the inability to walk up two flights of stairs or a sudden on how breathless you get during normal activities. That's a -- that's an issue that really worries me. It's subtle but it's there and it's a big warning sign to everybody out there.
If you look like Mr. Gandolfini, that's a warning sign as well. That big waist that we have talked about together, Piers, several times. Waist size that is more than half your height is a warning sign because that increased girth predisposes you to the risk factors of heart disease which are high blood pressure, the number one cause of death, and risk factor for it, diabetes and high cholesterol.
And if you don't know whether you have any shortness of breath or not, and you're not going to pay attention to your waist size, at least know those risk factors. The biggest there is a critical. And now the fourth sign I'm going to tell you all is not something many would think of but it was probably important in Mr. Gandolfini's case, which is what you last ate. Because often your last meal is truly the last meal.
It turns out that fatty foods -- they literally close down the arteries of the heart, and that's a problem because if you already have a blockage there and they spasm a little bit, you don't have any blood going to the heart or that life-sustaining juice, you have a heart attack. MORGAN: How much would there have been a factor of his admitted previous cocaine use and sort of previous big drinking and so on? Does that have a material impact on later heart issues?
OZ: It's a risk factor for heart problems because it can damage the heart while you're taking the cocaine or doing some of these other drugs or alcohol. But it didn't cause his heart attack. In fact, I have a little animation that I think is probably a pretty accurate rendition of what actually happened when he was in that hotel room.
So he goes to the bathroom, his blood pressure drops, there's his heart. Let's go to that major vessel inside of the heart. It brings blood, sustaining blood to the heart. That little plaque that you see that yellowish thing, that starts when you're 18 years of age. We let it from the Korean War experience. Young GI's who died had autopsies. That plaque goes bad when you're 51. It's -- and they ruptured. You see that right there? It ruptured.
Now what happened? He had a big meal, he did something, he strained on the toilet. Something happened that plaque ruptured. Now, Piers, it's starting to build a plaque. You're literally building up a clot over a scab. And that -- what you just witnessed, boom, is the leading cause of death in America.
That's what we're talking about with sudden heart attacks. And that plaque that I'm showing in this animation is present in a lot of folks who can hear my voice right now. The question is, will it rupture in your? Are you going to eat the wrong thing tonight? Are you going to do the wrong kinds of activities that lead to that plaque that you see right now tearing apart? That's why the number one cause of death in America, not only is heart disease, but it also happens most oftenly on Monday mornings. That's because you've had indiscretions over the weekend. Maybe you're tense about the workweek coming up ahead and you trip up.
MORGAN: Is it genetic at all, this kind of -- this kind of heart attack?
OZ: It is genetic, but it's only a third genetic. Two-thirds of how long we live and two-thirds of how at risk we are at these kinds of problems is driven by our lifestyle. And that's why the young man, his son who found him in the toilet, of course, has to worry for the rest of his life about of course the stressful event of witnessing your father there on the bathroom floor. But he's also got to think about his genes.
But for everyone out there, if your dad or mom died of heart disease or cancer, don't think it's your destiny, it's not. It's that -- genetic pre-disposition, the card you were dealt plus how you play them. It's the lifestyle that often drives whether you have that problem. So if you don't have a big waist size then your genes may not need to protect you against that problem so you may not be predisposed to heart disease.
MORGAN: It was very sad ending to James Gandolfini's life. But very important warnings that you're giving, Doctor. Let's take a short break, let's come back and talk about some other famous people, all women actually, who've been in the news for various health matters. Angelina Jolie, obviously, also Kim Kardashian had a baby who weighed just 4 pounds, 15 ounces. I'll get your take on that. And I do want to grill you about this flu that I got. Because I'm blaming you personally.
OZ: Fair enough.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: The myth about these, and I'm told there's a myth, is that you can actually get flu or flu-like symptoms simply by having the shot, is that true?
OZ: You cannot get the flu from the flu shot because the material is actually dead flu virus.
MORGAN: OK.
OZ: So it cannot cause a problem for you. It's based on whatever virus was present in Southeast Asia a few months ago.
MORGAN: OK. That is a myth?
OZ: That's a myth.
MORGAN: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Right, Dr. Oz, I want some answers out of you because I had never had a flu jab in my life, flu shot in my life, and within 10 days of you desecrating my arm, I went down with flu, and then I got it again 10 days later.
Now here's the interesting thing. When I went to see my doctor here in Los Angeles, he said to me, here's what happened. He had a lot of people coming in, who'd had the flu shot, they'd had it for the wrong strain. The one that the government had basically put all the shots out for, it was a different strain that was getting people. Does that make sense to you?
OZ: It's exactly what happened. And a few months after I desecrated your arm, Piers, I got -- god knows where you travelled to to pick up those two strains of the virus. I actually had some folks show our government, come on, I gave them a hard time because this flu shot this year only worked about 56 percent of the time. Most of the folks who got the flu shot who came down with the flu didn't get it from the shot. They got it because the shot hadn't protected them.
I got the flu shot, too.
MORGAN: Right. OZ: I was lucky not to get it but there are a lot of folks out there who don't get the flu shot because they don't think it works that well, and this year they were on target.
MORGAN: Can you at least just say, "Sorry, Piers"?
OZ: I'm sorry, Piers. I'm really, really sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: Let's move on to Angelina Jolie. She had this big, big thing in her life. A double mastectomy. And there have been two reactions to it. Mostly very supportive but one cancer survivor Melissa Etheridge called it the most fearful choice and was quite critical.
Where do you sit with this?
OZ: Well, it's an interesting perspective. You might understand Miss Etheridge, of course, has the same gene and decided not to have the same operation that Angelina Jolie had. So I'm respectful of both their decisions.
There are a couple of subtleties here. But the big story is that not all of these genetic predispositions are going to force you to have your breasts taken off or your ovaries removed. And this is the first, Piers, about a series of opportunities we're going to have to our lifetime, to be told dangerous things about our future, predictive things about whether we're going to get Alzheimer's, heart attacks or cancer, and then either act or not act. And the real question is not whether you're brave or not brave or fearful or not fearful, it's whether you embrace the fears that are out there.
That's what this technology gives us the opportunity to do because if you know there's a risk out there, what you do with it is the real issue, not whether you run from it or run towards it.
MORGAN: Now to two pregnancies, one that's come to fruition, Kim Kardashian's baby, North West, the world's most unlikely name, came in at 4 pounds, 15 ounces. Actually very small baby because she looked very heavily pregnant. By contrast, Kate Middleton has looked much light -- gained much less weight. Can you talk about what's been going on there for women who are watching who are curious?
OZ: Well, if you can keep your weight down within a reasonable amount as you get pregnant, it makes life a lot easier for you and the baby. Babies who are born to moms who are overweight are more likely to have problems as they go through life.
But let me also talk about the reality of the early birth of Kim Kardashian's daughter. You know, it's a reality that a lot of kids are born early. My youngest child, we have four, was also born five weeks prematurely. So I'm acutely aware of the fears that parents have through that process. And the child's immune system was a little bit immature, they -- their lungs often they're not quite ready because there's quite -- not quite big all the way. And it's very important whether you're gaining weight or not gaining weight during pregnancy, to deal with the real threat to the child's well-being which is the stress that you perceive. And that's why anything you can do to reduce that stress during pregnancy and also during delivery is hugely valuable.
I know that Miss Middleton is considering having hypno-birthing, which is a cool technology which basically hypnotizes you so it takes the anxiety out of the delivery. We believe that a lot of emotional issues that happen in adults can be tied back to strenuous pregnancies and difficulty around the time of delivery. And that tie in between significant emotional problems and that early process of introduction to this planet has revolutionized what we think about the early childhood years.
MORGAN: Dr. Oz, it's always fascinating to talk to you, even when you're giving me the flu. And I want to congratulate you. You just won your third Emmy in three consecutive years. A pretty amazing achievement for your fantastic (INAUDIBLE) show which everybody love, obviously.
Season five of "The Dr. Oz Show" returns September 9th. And you've got a magazine launching in early 2014. As if you were weren't busy enough. Always good to talk to you.
(CROSSTALK)
OZ: If I can just say one thing, I'm so proud of this magazine idea because so many folks out there keep talking to me about the -- that they want things written down for them. I love the idea we can talk about life in an uplifting way and make it fun at the same time. So I'm looking to it.
MORGAN: Well, I can be your first cover story, how Dr. Oz nearly killed me.
(LAUGHTER)
OZ: Fair enough. Fair enough.
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: Great to talk to you. See you soon.
OZ: Thank you.
MORGAN: When we come back, is this toy gun too realistic? The man who invented it says it feels like firing an assault rifle. He's on "The Grill" tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MORGAN: Teacher turned inventor under fire tonight with his creation. This is a video game controller that looks and feels just like an assault rifle. An idea that's so controversial in the wake of the Sandy Hook massacre even his wife won't let their young sons play with it.
On "The Grill" tonight, David Kotkin. He's the creator of DELTA SIX game controller. Also joining me is his wife Melissa.
Welcome to you both. So just for viewers who are watching this, I want you to show you immediately what this is. And to use it.
DAVID KOTKIN, CREATED ASSAULT-STYLE GAME CONTROLLER: OK. Well, this is an assault type rifle, and -- here, I'll just get --
MORGAN: And this can be used with any game like "Call of Duty," any of the popular games?
D. KOTKIN: Anything, and other systems, too.
MORGAN: Right.
D. KOTKIN: Xbox, PS3, PC, and the New Generation. OK.
MORGAN: Is it working?
D. KOTKIN: Yes.
You were trying to find the game to play, right? OK. Look, it is not going to work, right? But I can see what happens. You fire the gun over there.
D. KOTKIN: OK.
MORGAN: OK.
D. KOTKIN: There's an R sensor here, so that basically when I want to, I zoom.
MORGAN: Right.
D. KOTKIN: So -- OK. See right now, I'll show you right now. OK. See, I go like this, I put my face down.
MORGAN: Right.
D. KOTKIN: It zooms I lift my head up, it does it, it zooms.
MORGAN: Right.
D. KOTKIN: It has a kickback. So when I'm doing this, I have -- there's a wheel here that's giving -- an actuator that's giving it kickback. I can reload.
MORGAN: So for all intents and purposes, it's like the real thing.
D. KOTKIN: Yes.
MORGAN: And it feels like firing the real thing.
D. KOTKIN: Yes. MORGAN: OK. I get it. I get it.
D. KOTKIN: OK.
MORGAN: Melissa, you don't like this very much.
MELISSA KOTKIN, WIFE OF CREATOR OF ASSAULT-STYLE GAME CONTROLLER: No, I don't. And we have --
MORGAN: I'll be honest with you. I don't like it very much because my -- I have three teenage sons, they all play these games.
M. KOTKIN: Right.
MORGAN: And they love them, but there's something about it being detached in a video screen, that something when I see this, this to me is Adam Lanza, Holmes in Aurora, every other mass shooting I've seen, coming vividly to reality.
M. KOTKIN: And I agree with you. We have two little boys, 8 and 11, and they're not allowed to pick it up. And -- in fact, after Boston, even though guns were not involved in that, I told him you've got to stop. This is not the time. There's too many things going on in this world, it's not the time. And if I won't let our kids to pick it up, I don't know that I want anyone else's kids to pick it up either.
MORGAN: Now, see, let me tell you, the problem is, my sons, I'm sure, would love to use this. They play other games and they -- they have the Wiis and all the rest of it, and they have the tennis racquets and so. And they'll say it's a natural extension because they're teenagers, but I don't want them to have it. I don't see how this is going to do anything other than make potentially disturbed minds even more disturbed.
D. KOTKIN: I want to show you something. These are not bullets.
MORGAN: Right.
D. KOTKIN: It's a battery pack.
MORGAN: Right.
D. KOTKIN: It is a gaming gun.
MORGAN: But you're -- see, here's my problem. Everyone keeps telling me there is no link, a scientific link, between violent videogame playing and any of these atrocities. And yet we know that Adam Lanza was addicted to "Call of Duty" and stuff like that. We know that Holmes, the Aurora shooter, the same kind of thing. We know the Columbine killers, the same thing.
I interviewed a guy who shot his parents and this is what he had to say. Let's watch this. His name is Joshua Cooke.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOSHUA CHOKE, JAILED FOR MURDERING PARENTS: A lot of these shooter games, when I would play these games, I just -- it did a lot for me mentally where I could release my aggression with these games, and I could almost bring my fantasies to fruition the way I would just immerse myself in these games. Sometimes I would play them 12 to 15 hours a day without leaving my room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I mean, it was pretty clear that he felt there that this was a direct link. You know, this was making -- and my sense is always been that if people are slightly disturbed to start with, then these games can make them more disturbed and potentially trigger them doing something. I don't see how this, which is, you know, it's like an -- the AR-15, you know, shot down in Houston, you know, it looks a bit like it, it fires like it, it feels like it.
How is that not to a disturbed mind -- and this is a sniper rifle you have, right?
D. KOTKIN: Yes.
MORGAN: How are these not going to make people like Joshua Cooke, Adam Lanza and the others -- see, immediately I hate this. I'm sorry. I just do.
M. KOTKIN: I agree with you. And we've had this discussion. And our children --
MORGAN: I can see that they're hugely popular but I hate them.
M. KOTKIN: Yes.
MORGAN: Yes, I mean, look, you know, it's a -- it's just like a rifle and it's going to be very exciting. But a lot of kids are going to be doing this who potentially have a form of mental illness. We know that -- we've seen the pattern of this recently.
M. KOTKIN: Yes.
MORGAN: There was a guy down here in Los Angeles, at Santa Monica recently.
M. KOTKIN: Yes.
MORGAN: You know? Who just picked up a real one of these and began killing people.
M. KOTKIN: And it is really realistic because I know --
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: How -- let me give you the last word there because you've got your wife and me against you.
(LAUGHTER) Tell me ethically how this works for you.
D. KOTKIN: It works ethically because I have to say that there's -- should I say it? OK, I'm going to say it. There's five people here who want one, from your staff, who said to me, you know, I want one of these. This is the coolest thing that I have. You know, I would love to have this. Would you -- your staff wants it. I mean, and you know, would you take that away from them, the joy of just having a little fun inside their house?
MORGAN: I think the argument -- the least effective argument I've heard about guns is -- especially with the AR-15s which these replicate, is they're just good fun. Unfortunately it's not enough for me that they're just good fun. You know, when I look at those -- the stories like the Sandy Hook kids, it's not enough for me that it's fun. Something has to stop. And this to me is a really quite terrifying escalation in video games, and I know there's a link because I've interviewed these people and they told me there is.
D. KOTKIN: Well, when you were holding that sniper rifle, did you feel like shooting someone?
MORGAN: No, but I'm not mentally disturbed. That's the problem.
D. KOTKIN: And --
MORGAN: So you don't know who is going to be getting their hands on these.
D. KOTKIN: Piers, what are we supposed to do? Not be good architect and not do --
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: I think --
D. KOTKIN: Build a building that's high so we --
MORGAN: No, my final point would be, I think to be fair to you, the Hollywood movies are just as culpable in this kind of thing. Everyone has a responsibility.
But, anyway, look, David, I thank you for bringing it in. Melissa, I am with you on this one.
M. KOTKIN: I am with you.
MORGAN: I hope it's not successful. Sorry, mate.
Anyway, that's all for us tonight. Next a CNN's special, "Self Defense or Murder: The George Zimmerman Trial." Anderson Cooper breaks down today's testimony starting in a few moments.
