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Piers Morgan Live

Georgia Elementary School Shooting; Hannah Anderson's Family Speaking Out; Australian Baseball Player Shot to Death; Summer's Winners and Losers

Aired August 22, 2013 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world.

Tonight new details on the story everyone is talking about. The hero bookkeeper, Antoinette Tuff, who got the Georgia school gunman to surrender.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTOINETTE TUFF, SCHOOL BOOKKEEPER: He's a hurting soul, and so if any kind of way that I can help him and allow him to get on the right path, we all go through something and I believe that God gives us all a purpose in life, and I believe he has a purpose in destiny for that young man, also.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: People across the country are, of course, thanking her. She's a true hero. But what do we know about the suspect, Michael Brandon Hill? Tonight my exclusive interview with his brother Tim, who probably has a few words for Antoinette as well.

Plus I'll talk to school principal who first called 911 and the police chief who led the negotiations.

Also the face of courage. Hannah Anderson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANNAH ANDERSON, SURVIVED KIDNAPPING: There was a hard time and there's going to be harder times in life, but if I could get through this, I'm sure I can get through a lot more.

MORGAN: How she survived the alleged kidnapping. Hannah's aunts and grandfather speak up for the first time.

And the thrill kill murder in Oklahoma with the outrage, questions of double standards. Are the media treating this story differently because the victim is white?

We begin, though, with our big story, the Georgia gunman who slipped into a school with an AK-47 and hundreds of rounds of ammo. Why did Michael Brandon Hill do it? What was he thinking. With me now exclusively is the suspect's brother, Tim Hill.

Tim, thank you for joining me. Obviously, incredibly difficult time for you, and for your family and for your brother and for everyone connected with what has happened here. Let me first ask you when did you hear about what had happened and how did you hear it.

TIM HILL, GEORGIA SCHOOL SHOOTER'S BROTHER: Shortly after I got off of work -- well, I can't say shortly. I took me a nap, woke up, went hang out with some friends, get a phone call from my sister-in- law telling me that immediately I needed to check my Facebook. She said that Brandon -- I'll call him Michael -- was the one responsible for the school shooting.

MORGAN: Were you surprised?

HILL: I was a little bit, but over the years of growing up with him it almost seemed like eventually he would do something like this, but not to this magnitude.

MORGAN: You called him Brandon, not Michael, right?

HILL: Yes, sir.

MORGAN: So let's call him Brandon. You grew up together, you're two years older than him. Both your parents had sadly died. What was he like as a kid, and when did things started to go wrong for him?

HILL: He was like any other kid. We always went out, played outside, played in the woods, just did kindly things like everybody. And it just -- once he started hitting his teenage years, it -- something happened with him. It -- everything just started changing after doctors started messing with his medicines here and there, and changing it up and putting him on a different one and institutionalize him multiple times to correct his medicine. And it just escalated from there.

MORGAN: He got into criminality. He became violent and dangerous. Ten times he was committed for treatment in mental health institutions. I believe all of them involuntarily, by psychiatrists, by your parents, by whoever.

Let's go through the escalation in his behavioral pattern. I think there was an incident in his mid-teens when he tried to set fire to the family home with everyone inside.

HILL: Yes, sir, we -- it was approximately eight people in the house asleep at the time. I just -- I say about an hour, hour and a half, before I came home I was laying in my bed trying to go to sleep. Just started hearing this awful noise. I couldn't figure out what it was, so finally whenever I walked outside my door it sounded exactly like wood popping. And I went straight to the attic and discovered that the fire -- well, yes, the fire was in the attic.

MORGAN: He'd set the fire up to put the house ablaze?

HILL: At that point we didn't know it was him. We didn't find out it was him until about 5:00, 6:00 a.m. in the morning?

MORGAN: He also stood over your parents holding an ax.

HILL: It wasn't an ax. At one point my stepfather and mother ended up having to lock up every, like, all the knives in the trunk of the car just to protect everybody in the home.

MORGAN: Because he was threatening to use them?

HILL: He didn't threaten to use them, it's just after they -- after my mom woke up with him standing over her with a butcher knife, it just changed from there. They didn't keep knives in the house no more.

MORGAN: He also threatened to kill you.

HILL: Yes, sir, he did.

MORGAN: He posted very serious threats on Facebook directly at you saying he was going to kill you.

HILL: Yes, sir.

MORGAN: How did that make you feel as his brother?

HILL: I honestly had no words for it, except fear. That's the only thing I can think of.

MORGAN: Did you think he meant it?

HILL: I did. If I didn't, I wouldn't have contacted police.

MORGAN: The family contacted police about a dozen times, I understand, for various offenses of the nature that we've been discussing. Nothing was ever really done, was it? Either by the mental health treatment that he had in the 10 or so times he was put inside these institutions, by any of the police that you contacted.

HILL: The --

MORGAN: Do you feel -- let me ask you this, Tim. Do you feel angry that the system betrayed your family?

HILL: I'm not angry. I feel like there's just a whole lot more they could have done. I feel like instead of people won't -- like I'm going to give an example. Rich, famous people wanting to reach out to the victims of somebody when they really should be reaching out to people that have mental disorders and that could wind up doing something he did.

MORGAN: I mean, President Obama called Antoinette Tuff, and I know that you were watching that on Anderson Cooper's show in the green room here and you got angry because you felt that the president should be more focused on the problems that your brother had.

HILL: He should be more focused on trying to get to the bottom of what he can help -- how he can help these kids in today's society, instead of calling somebody up just to thank them for what they did.

Yes, I'm pretty sure she's been thanked by hundreds and hundreds of people.

MORGAN: Are you grateful to her?

HILL: Yes --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: I mean, effectively she may well have saved your brother's lives and the lives of countless children in the school.

HILL: Yes, sir, I really am, but I honestly did not see it necessary for President Obama to call her up when he could have been focusing more on what could be done to prevent things like this.

MORGAN: Let's listen to a clip from the 911 call that we played last night. Pretty dramatic. Let's listen to what she had to say, Antoinette Tuff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUFF: It's going to be all right, sweetie. I just want you to know that I love you, though, OK? And I'm proud of you. That's a good thing that you're just giving up. And don't worry about it. We all go through something in life. No, you don't want that. You going to be OK. I thought the same thing. You know I tried to commit suicide last year after my husband left me. But look at me now. I'm still working and everything is OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Your brother tried to commit suicide numerous times.

HILL: Yes, sir.

MORGAN: How many would you say? A guess?

HILL: Too many to count. And I couldn't put a number on it.

MORGAN: Where did he get the gun? He had an AK-47. Do you have any idea where he would have got that?

HILL: My opinion on that, he had to get it off the street, and there --

MORGAN: Illegally.

HILL: Illegally and there's -- I'm pretty sure there's going to be somebody that's going to bring up something about gun laws or this, that and the other with that when in all reality there is no gun law whatsoever, nothing anybody can do or say that's going to prevent somebody that wants to get their hands on a gun to get their hands on a gun.

MORGAN: And is that because there is just too many guns in circulation?

HILL: It's not even that. It -- the guns that we have in the United States, majority of them probably didn't come from the United States. They are probably smuggled in from somewhere.

MORGAN: But there are -- I mean, there are 300 million guns in this country and time and again now, it's the same type of mass shooter or in your brother's case potential mass shooter. They all seem to be mentally disturbed young, predominantly white men in their early 20s.

I mean, you got Adam Lanza, you look at -- any number of them, James Holmes and others. They're all in the same category. What is it do you think that is going on with -- these kids? What is it that can be done to try and stop more of them doing this kind of thing?

HILL: They need to be looked at more closely. They need to be given more help that they actually need to be given instead of pushed to the side because the doctor thinks they are well. And I don't -- I don't know.

MORGAN: We've got some more from Antoinette Tuff. She talks about this actually. Let's listen to what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUFF: He said he should have just went to the mental hospital instead of doing this because he's not on his medication.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: You see, Tim, I don't want to try and justify what your brother did. I don't really excuse it. I think it's inexcusable and unjustified. But when I talk to you, there's a pattern of behavior here and of mental illness of constant failure by people to correctly identify what his problems are and deal with it, both from law enforcement, from mental health institutions, from anyone.

As a family did you feel in the end -- you had nothing else you could do, that it was a helpless situation for you?

HILL: Towards the end before I stopped really talking to him, I felt hopeless at helping him. I tried many times growing up as a teenager to sit him down and talk to him, be like hey, look, if you just do this and that and the other, things might be easier on you. You probably won't be getting in as much trouble, but it's like he'd listen and then a week or two later, he'd be back out of the house.

MORGAN: Have you tried to talk to him since this happened?

HILL: The shooting?

MORGAN: Yes.

HILL: No, sir, I'm not allowed to.

MORGAN: Do you want to?

HILL: Right now I'm honestly not sure. After this, I just want to collect my thoughts.

MORGAN: He has no parents. He only has really I guess you as family and your other siblings. What do you think will happen to him?

HILL: I couldn't tell you. I really couldn't.

MORGAN: Tim Hill, it's been fascinating talking to you. I'm very sorry for what has happened to you and your family. It's an awful situation for everyone involved and it sounds like he was an accident waiting to happen like Adam Lanza in Newtown and others. And I just wish somebody had done something more to try and do something about it.

HILL: And it's like every time something like this happens, like you said, it's always the white people that are doing it, but in every case there's always a race card thrown out there, and it's ridiculous how somebody is so quick to jump to it being racial or people bringing -- saying stuff they have no clue about or people claiming to be other people's mothers like -- like has happened here recently.

It's -- the system just needs to listen more, especially like how when my stepfather straight up told the -- I couldn't tell you if it was the district attorney or if it was a judge, but they -- he straight up said to him, is it going to take him killing somebody before you finally give him the help he needs?

MORGAN: And nothing happened?

HILL: Nothing.

MORGAN: But finally, what would you say to Antoinette Tuff? Because she was a hero in her actions. She seemed to have a connection to your brother, which in the end talked him off the ledge in a sense. What would you say to her?

HILL: Thank you. I would also like to say I'm not -- I don't think he would have honestly harmed her or harm any of the kids. I don't think he was there to do that. He's always had a problem with the cops.

MORGAN: His -- yes, that seemed to be what he was threatening to do was to shoot policemen.

Tim, I've got to leave it there, but thank you very much for coming in. We do appreciate it.

What more do we know about Antoinette Tuff, the heroine? We'll find out when I talk live with the school principal. He joins me next, along with the police chief.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TUFF: It was the best voice that I could ever hear, couldn't have a better leader in place at this time. I appreciate you, too, but I learned from the best, the best president in the world. No, that's me. You can't get any better when you got a great leader in front of you.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: What did he say to you?

TUFF: He just wanted to let me know that him and his wife and his family was very proud of what I did and everybody wanted to thank me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: President Obama calling hero bookkeeper Antoinette Tuff to offer his thanks on behalf of just about everyone in America. Then an emotional reunion with the 911 operator who talked her through her ordeal.

Joining me now are Cedric Alexander, the chief of the DeKalb County Police Department, and Dr. Brian Bolden, the principal of the McNair Discovery Learning Academy.

Welcome to both of you. I want to come to Antoinette who's the clear heroin here in a moment if I may. But let me start with you, Police Chief, I just wonder what your reaction was to that interview there with the brother of the alleged shooter because he built a picture, a pretty terrifying picture of someone multiple times trying to commit suicide, multiple times going into mental institutions, reported to the police at least a dozen times. Nothing was ever done and it all built and built to this incident. What did you think of it?

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, POLICE CHIEF, DEKALB COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, certainly, it's a very troubling statements that his brother indicated to us here on television. This is a young man that clearly has had some real serious clinical issues in his past, and not making any attempt to try to assess him in any type of way, but just based on his brother's statements, just based on what occurred on that particular day, and based on the fact that he made threats towards police and he took shots at police on this day, as well, too, is just clearly very suggestive to us, and I think to most people, that his troubled past brought him to this day but fortunately for everyone it ended -- it ended well.

MORGAN: It did end well. And let me come to you, Dr. Bolden, if I may, about Antoinette, who is a real heroine in anyone's book. What did you think about her actions, particularly when you heard that 911 call which really has inspired everybody?

BRIAN BOLDEN, PRINCIPAL AT MCNAIR DISCOVERY LEARNING ACADEMY: What we have seen in the last few days is what I get to see every day as principal. She is just a phenomenal individual. She's a natural leader. She has the ability to connect with the heart of just a variety of individuals, and she really has the last name Tuff because she's in fact tough. And I just want to make sure everybody is aware that the events that took place and the things that really happened were nothing short of a miracle. And we've termed that the Miracle on 2nd Avenue because she was in the position just the day before I changed the lunch schedule in the school because we had two new staff members to report to our school.

And the time that we changed the lunch schedule was geared toward having her in a position where she could deal with the checkouts of students. So she was actually put in that position the day before, and I would like to just commend all of my staff for the work that they did with the preparation because in situations like this you have to have a plan of action in place to ensure the safety and security of all of our students.

And that is my commitment to our parents and our community, and as principals, we have that charge that our responsibility is to deliver our students safely every opportunity we have.

MORGAN: Let's take a look at another clip from her interview with Anderson Cooper. Quite remarkable interview. She's an extraordinary woman, I got to say, regardless of her actions this week. This is where she got very emotional talking about being late and revealing that she herself had just been told some awful news.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUFF: I got there late because I was actually, you know, meant to -- the news that I got was devastating. And I know God had me to be late to get that news and to put all that aside that I just got to be able to help that young man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Dr. Bolden, do you have any idea what her news was that was so devastating?

BOLDEN: Not at all and she has the ability to absorb issues that impact her life, and it never perfect -- it never really inhibits her ability to be professional and do what she needs to do.

I did not talk with her about that particular situation. But I know she has the ability to separate those personal issues from her professional issues, and she was able to put herself in the appropriate state of mind to really connect with the heart of that individual to have him to deescalate his motives and again she has that ability.

MORGAN: Yes.

BOLDEN: That's a gift that she has.

MORGAN: Yes, I mean, and clearly drawing on her own pretty troubled life herself as she was so painfully honest about during that 911 call. Let me come back to you, if I may, Chief Alexander, in terms of the way that she conducted herself, it seemed like an absolutely perfect template of how to negotiate with somebody in this kind of situation. As a police officer, what did you think of it?

ALEXANDER: Well, I think there's something to be learned certainly from the actions that she took that day. What came across very clear to all of us, she was calm. She maintained her composure. She stayed focused on him. She was able to empathize with where he was at this particular moment and time in his life and she also shared some of her own experiences, as well, too.

And what that allowed to do, it created an environment for him where he begin to feel safe, it calmed him down, and it also probably unbeknowing to her, kept her very calm as well, too. Because also if you remember from one part of her tape, she even states that inside I was certainly very frightened of what was going on, paraphrasing what she's stating but she was clearly very frightened here.

But her being able to connect with him was crucial. It saved lives and she's really just an extraordinary individual.

MORGAN: Yes.

ALEXANDER: And a true hero that we really have to respect today.

MORGAN: I think we agree.

ALEXANDER: Yes.

MORGAN: There were a couple of issues, Chief Alexander. I just want to touch on in relation to the guns part of this. One is that some people react to all these incidents in schools whether it's at Sandy Hook where an atrocity took place or whether it's here where it was avoided, and say that teachers should be armed. What is your quick reaction to that?

ALEXANDER: Well, you know, I think the thing -- you know, we got to think that through a lot more in this country in terms whether teachers should be armed or not. What we have to do today is that we have to make sure that we continue to train faculty, continue to train police, continue to train community, so that when these type of events do occur, there is some preparation, there is something that we can go to.

And I'm going to tell you on this particular day, that faculty and staff in that school did exactly what they were trained to do and so did the principal and that played a real significant part in the day ending up being a good day even though it started out a bad one.

So there is a lot more conversation in this country that's going to have to take place around gun control, and where those guns should be particularly when we start talking about arming teachers inside school. There's a lot more conversation that just going to take place. MORGAN: Dr. Bolden, just to wrap up with you and quickly, if you don't mind, I take on board what the police chief said there you were a hero yourself as well as all your staff involved in this. Would you like to see your teachers armed?

BOLDEN: That's a question that's always been debatable. I would like to commend Chief Alexander, let me just -- let me just share this. That's a phenomenal leader and when I stepped in I asked, you know, who is in charge at this point and that is a leaders' leader. When I saw the look of intensity in his eyes, I knew that we were in the best possible hands. His staff, they were so well-poised and trained and it took the -- you know, the strain off of me as the leader of that school that I could relinquish the authority to him and his team was just exceptional.

So with leaders like this in place, I think that we're in pretty good hands. We're in pretty good hands with his leadership, with his team, and those great things that we have that we can work within the system and all of the other additional support staff that we have, just his leadership was just phenomenal and it gives principals in DeKalb and principals across the country hope.

MORGAN: Well, Dr. Bolden and Police Chief Alexander, thank you both very much for joining me. You all contributed heroically --

ALEXANDER: Thank you.

MORGAN: -- to a successful resolution to what happened and we greatly appreciate that.

Coming next, the alleged thrill kill murder in Oklahoma. New details about the suspects and new questions about race in this shocking crime.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: The outrage continues over the alleged thrill kill murder of Christopher Lane gunned down, as police say because the suspects were simply bored. And there are new details tonight that one of the accused posted images online showing him posing with guns and money.

The horrific crime has sparked a heated debate. Glenn Beck says that race is a factor in how it's being reported.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GLENN BECK, HOST, GLENN BECK PROGRAM: There is something missing here. Can you tell me what that is? Can you tell me what that is? What's missing in this story?

PAT GRAY, CO-HOST, GLENN BECK PROGRAM: They do it every time.

BECK: Do it every time. Every time.

GRAY: So you almost are guaranteed that if the race isn't mentioned in a story like this, it's because they are black.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: With me know Charles Blow, "The New York Times" columnist and CNN political commentator, and CNN contributor and host of the "Ben Ferguson Show," Ben Ferguson.

Welcome to both of you.

Ben Ferguson, let me start with you. What is the issue here? Is it because two of the three alleged killers here were black, therefore it must be a race crime?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We found from some of these tweets which was that he said he didn't like white people and he was planning on going out and killing people, and that would be what many would say is a hate crime. If we have hate crime legislation then it should be used appropriately when someone goes out to kill someone of another race based on their race.

And at least for one of these young men, there was a motivation there through his own words, not through speculation, that he did not like anyone that was white, and we see this also happen with a lot of gang initiations in this country, where a lot of gang members who happen to be of one race will go out and purposely attack someone of another race and --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Yes, but hang on, hang on --

FERGUSON: And if you're going to have hate crime legislation, you should do that.

MORGAN: Hang on, Ben. But, Ben, you are missing one key ingredient in this story, aren't you? One of the three was white. So how does that work with your this is a one-race gang?

FERGUSON: I just said -- I just said --

MORGAN: One of the gang is white.

FERGUSON: At least one. I said at least one --

MORGAN: Yes, but if one of them is white --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Right, but well -- yes, but is there actual evidence that he set out deliberately to kill a white person?

FERGUSON: I think there is a lot of evidence if you look at what he said in his own words online --

MORGAN: I've not seen anything that says that.

FERGUSON: And that's what I'm referring to here.

MORGAN: I've seen -- I've seen him.

FERGUSON: Well, you should look at it because it said he doesn't like white people and they are creepy. That's one of the --

MORGAN: I've read it.

FERGUSON: -- multiple (INAUDIBLE).

MORGAN: I've read it. What I haven't read, what I haven't read is the inference you're putting on this that he set out to deliberately kill a white person because that's not what it says.

Charles Blow, let me bring you in here. I mean, there is an argument, and you know what the argument is, it's the one Glenn Beck and others have put forward today, that the media deliberately underplayed this story of the Australian student, which I think is ridiculous because we led on it, for example, on the night that it happened. But they underplayed it simply because he was white and two of the killers, alleged killers were black.

What is your reaction?

CHARLES BLOW, OP-ED COLUMNIST, NEW YORK TIMES: Well, first, the idea that the media does not include people like Glenn Beck is ridiculous. I think we can get caught up in this idea that the media is -- they'll have separate and apart from people in one persuasion. And the media becomes everybody who doesn't agree with them.

I have heard quite a bit about this story. I think that most people are saddened by this story, that people, you know, that we are -- our hearts go out to the young man who was killed, his family and his loved ones and -- but I think when you, you know, when we try to figure out what is in a person's state of mind at the point that a crime is -- happens, it gets tricky because we don't know.

What we know about bias is that it is not always constant and it has to be present at the time of the crime. And what we'll have to do is to see when we go to trial if they can assess whether or not the bias was present at the time of the crime. It does not bode well, I will agree, however, that he is -- that at least one of the people who is suspected of committing this crime has articulated that he has these sorts of biases. That is a -- that is not part of the --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Right, see, Ben Ferguson, here is the point I would make. Ben, let me just say to you.

FERGUSON: OK.

MORGAN: If it turns out that there is concrete evidence that one or two of the black suspects here deliberately targeted a young white man to assassinate, then I will be the first to say this is absolutely disgusting and outrageous, as I've been saying since I first heard about this case anyway.

I don't understand why there has to be this sort of ludicrous in- media squabbling over this kind of issue.

FERGUSON: I don't think --

MORGAN: Obviously we're all outraged by it.

FERGUSON: But let me say this, Piers, the prime example of what I'm talking about where I think there is a double standard when we're dealing with issues of race is how much caution we just showed towards these young men but we did not show towards George Zimmerman when there was a circumstance where there was actually an altercation.

This was just absolute cold-blooded vicious, evil murder, but when there was another situation with an altercation, none of this caution --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: But, Ben, I agree with you.

FERGUSON: -- and this calm that we just witnessed was -- it wasn't there with that case and that is the double standard when there are two different races and two crimes committed by two different races.

BLOW: I think that -- I think --

MORGAN: I don't agree -- I don't agree with that.

BLOW: I think he's referring to --

MORGAN: I think there has been -- there's been universal outrage.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: I think he's referring to me, Piers.

MORGAN: And you mentioned George Zimmerman. Here's what I'm also outraged by. Let's look at this. This is George Zimmerman today, down at the gun store. He's after new guns. He has a tactical shotgun. There he is, smiling away.

FERGUSON: He's a free --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Charles Blow, I mean, I don't know about you but I find this utterly --

FERGUSON: But, see, this is my point. You just still want to convict him -- hold on. Hold on.

MORGAN: Wait a minute, Ben Ferguson. FERGUSON: You still -- Piers.

MORGAN: Wait a minute, Ben. Let Charles Blow have the first say. I'll come back to you afterwards.

Charles Blow, I find this offensive. I don't want to see George Zimmerman smiling in a gun store as he's preparing to buy more guns.

BLOW: Right, well first, I want to go back and say I think they're trying to draw direct parallels between the Trayvon Martin case and this case is actually a disgusting kind of tactic to take. I think that those are two separate cases with two very different sets of circumstances. And in fact, what this particular case shows us is how the -- the system of justice is actually supposed to work and how people thought that it would have worked in the Trayvon Martin case, as well.

That something really horrible happens, and we figure out who did it, and we immediately take those people into custody, and we've -- on Tuesday they had a charge. I mean, you set a court date and you say that we're going to let the justice system figure out what the facts are. That is not what happened in the Trayvon Martin case. It is a very --

FERGUSON: Well, the justice --

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: I'm sorry, I let you speak. I let you speak.

FERGUSON: The justice --

BLOW: No, I will not give the time. I let you speak. What I'm telling you is these are very different cases and what -- if the Trayvon Martin situation had actually happened in the same way that this case happened, you would have had no outrage, but the fact that they are so different --

FERGUSON: But it didn't happen that way. It --

BLOW: What didn't happen?

FERGUSON: I'm going to respond, OK?

BLOW: Please do.

FERGUSON: If you look at the differences in these two cases and this is where you're having a very selective memory because you think George Zimmerman is guilty still even though a jury of his peers found him innocent and you still don't want to treat him as a free, innocent man now.

BLOW: You know what I think?

FERGUSON: Let me finish.

BLOW: You know what I think? You can't tell me what I think.

FERGUSON: Let me finish. Hold on.

BLOW: I'm sorry. No, I'm going to let you finish telling me what I think.

FERGUSON: I'm going to finish. I'm going to finish the same way that you would not -- all right. Now let me finish.

BLOW: Go for it.

FERGUSON: My point is this.

BLOW: Tell the truth.

FERGUSON: There was a justice system. You just didn't like how it worked.

BLOW: How do you know that?

FERGUSON: You didn't like the police and how they investigated it. You didn't like the outcome they didn't charge him with a crime and so therefore you decided that as an American who wasn't there that night, who didn't investigate it, that you would be against George Zimmerman, even though there was, in fact, people that were doing their job. You just didn't like how they did their job.

BLOW: No.

FERGUSON: There is a big difference in these two incidents.

BLOW: So you are not in Oklahoma. You were not in Oklahoma and you're making a judgment about what's in the minds of people who were there and you absolutely do not know that. So the fact that you're being such a hypocrite about this is actually outrageous.

FERGUSON: I'm not. You're the one who's acting like a --

BLOW: The second thing --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen, I have to -- I have to end it there. What I would say, though, is surely the common theme surely is in both cases we don't actually know for sure either way if there was any racial intent.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: Piers, I'm glad you had me on with a clairvoyant tonight. Thank you.

MORGAN: Well, as always, gentlemen, it's good to talk to both of you.

Coming up next, how is Hannah Anderson doing after her ordeal? I'll talk exclusively with her grandfather and two of her aunts. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: The phone calls weren't phone calls. They were texts because he was picking me up from cheer camp, and he didn't know address or what -- like where I was, so I had to tell him the address and tell him that I was going to be in the gym and not in front of the school just so he knew where to come and get me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Hannah Anderson on the "Today" show speaking out for the first time since her kidnapping. The 16-year-old says she now sees herself as a survivor, not a victim.

Joining me now for an exclusive interview Hannah's aunt, Samantha, and Andrea Saincome, and her grandfather, Christopher Saincome, who is on the phone.

Welcome to all of you, and let me say at the very start of this interview how terribly sorry I am about the awful loss of Christina and your little nephew, as well.

Let me talk to you, first of all, Christopher. You're on the phone. You're the grandfather in all this. You're Hannah's grandfather. You were Christina's mother obviously and you suffered this terrible double loss to your family and nearly a terrible loss.

How are you coping as a family?

CHRISTOPHER SAINCOME, HANNAH ANDERSON'S GRANDFATHER: Well, it's very hard. I don't feel it's really sunk in yet until maybe after the funeral. It just seems like a bad dream, but it's hitting, but gradually more and more every day, so that's -- it hard.

MORGAN: You've spoken, Christopher, I believe with both Hannah and Brett, her father, this week. How are they coping do you think after this appalling ordeal?

C. SAINCOME: Well, Hannah is trying to be strong because that's what she would do for her mother and that's the way her mother kind of raised her to be strong like she was. So they are coping the best they can, even though they are in pain, you know, she's doing these interviews because she has to release. She's a 16-year-old child.

MORGAN: Let's take a listen to what Hannah had to say about her mother Christina and brother Ethan on the "Today" show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: He had a really big heart and she was strong-hearted and very tough. She knew how to handle things.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MORGAN: Samantha Saincome, you're Hannah's aunt. Obviously a dreadful, dreadful time for your family. She shows remarkable spirit, doesn't she, and courage, I think, Hannah in the way she's trying to deal with this.

SAMANTHA SAINCOME, HANNAH ANDERSON'S AUNT: Yes, her mom always taught her to be strong through everything, and that's what she's doing for her.

MORGAN: Did you know this man, James DiMaggio, the kidnapper and the man we believe is responsible for killing Christina and Ethan?

S. SAINCOME: I've met him a couple of times but I didn't really know him.

MORGAN: Can you quite believe what has happened here and do you fully understand yet what has happened here?

S. SAINCOME: I don't think it's actually set in. It's still something that's surreal and still kind of like a dream.

MORGAN: Andrea, obviously, very emotional for all of you and perfectly understandable that should be the case. This man, Jim DiMaggio, he appears to have committed double-murder, kidnapped Hannah and yet he was so close to the family, to that part of the family. What do you think has been behind all this?

ANDREA SAINCOME, HANNAH ANDERSON'S AUNT: You know, I have no idea exactly what he had been thinking. It was just -- he had to have been just losing it.

MORGAN: Christopher, there are suggestions that Christina may have had some kind of relationship with James DiMaggio. Do you believe that could possibly be true?

C. SAINCOME: Absolutely not.

MORGAN: Why do you think those rumors have been circulating?

C. SAINCOME: I believe it's his sister starting these rumors because of this insurance thing. You know, I don't understand why she's doing it, but I know the only reason is probably the money involved. Because from what I understand she wouldn't even do interviews unless she collected $10,000.

MORGAN: Samantha, the funeral is on Saturday. It's going to be very difficult, I'm sure, for all of you. How are you all going to deal with that, do you think?

S. SAINCOME: I'm not quite sure yet. I think it's something I'm just going to have to deal with when it comes.

A. SAINCOME: Do it as a family.

S. SAINCOME: Yes. MORGAN: I'm so sorry to all of you for what has happened. It's just utterly devastating and I'm very grateful to you all for coming on the show tonight and to give us some insight into this awful, awful tragedy. Thank you all very much, indeed.

C. SAINCOME: Thank you.

MORGAN: Joining me now is DiMaggio family spokesman, Andrew Spanswick.

Andrew, it's very hard talking to the family members here. Clearly they feel quite angry about these rumors circulating about a possible relationship between your friend, James DiMaggio and Christina, who died, and they are trying to lay blame, I guess, at Laura, James' sister, for going after the money that was not bequeath to her in the life insurance.

What is your reaction to that?

ANDREW SPANSWICK, DIMAGGIO FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: Well, first of all, I think they are going through the natural process of grief and it's -- as I've been saying all along that at some point there's going to be a need for the family to understand what motivated Jim to do these atrocious acts.

Laura has denied that she is after the money. In fact, as I said on the show last time, she spoke directly to Brett, the father, Brett Anderson, and said that she was not going to contest the money going to him or -- I'm sorry, actually his mother, that Jim intended that to go to the children, both children.

So I don't know why they're saying that she's after money. And she hasn't gotten paid to do any interview. In fact, she's scared for her life at this point and getting harassed by the media and other people, like getting a lot of hate mails so -- as have I. So it just -- you know, that isn't really part of this story, as far as I'm concerned.

MORGAN: Are you able to shed any more light on all these wild rumors about some relationship between James DiMaggio and Christina, Hannah's mother?

SPANSWICK: The original stories came to Laura from neighbors in the area that they had believe that Jim had possibly had a relationship with her, and that's where, you know, she got all worried and scared and confused and she's, you know, going through the same grieving process and -- as they are. She's a victim in this, as well. Not only did she know everyone, but she's lost her only -- remaining family member.

So, and as beyond the perpetrator's side, it's awful and difficult to get any sort of sympathy. And, you know, she's dealing with her own mental health issues regarding the trauma and abuse that they both suffered as children and so it's just a really tough time for her.

MORGAN: Yes. It's tough for everybody involved in this awful case.

Andrew Spanswick, as always, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

SPANSWICK: Thank you.

MORGAN: Coming next, what a crazy summer. Who are the winners and losers? Here's a hint. At least one candidate for mayor of New York City. I'll ask the world's angriest man, always foaming at the mouth, Lewis Black. He's next. He looks suitably furious. Go on, look angry.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: Lewis Black never holds back, especially when he's here with me. He's the world's angriest man. He's on Demand's special, "Lewis Black: Old Yeller", live at the Borgata. Premiers this Saturday.

Welcome back, Lewis. How are you? You look suited to be furious.

LEWIS BLACK, COMEDIAN: I'm really -- no, it's always nice to be here without you because I'm moments away -- I just cut a deal in the back room. I actually am not going to take as much money as you do, and I'm cutting out any health care benefits, and I got the gig.

MORGAN: Well, you're not worth as much money that's why you've been taking --

(LAUGHTER)

Let's move on to the -- let's move on to the winners and losers of this summer. It's been a crazy old roller coaster ride. Who have you got emerging as winners of the summer?

BLACK: Wendy Davis, who was the woman who did the filibuster in Texas.

MORGAN: Yes.

BLACK: She -- you know, I mean, basically she lost in the end, but by losing she won, because, you know, it's -- you know, not since really -- you really get to see that kind of Jimmy Stewart, you know, Mr. Smith goes to Washington moment. And --

MORGAN: Yes. I'm with you on that. Who else?

BLACK: And she spoke her mind.

MORGAN: Royal baby? Cronuts?

BLACK: The cronut -- that thing is astonishing, isn't it? Somebody goes, OK, I'm going to mix together the world's heaviest breakfast food with the other world's heaviest breakfast food.

(LAUGHTER)

How did it take so long for us to figure it out? You know? I cannot --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: What about the royal baby? Are you a -- are you a big fan of the -- was the royal baby a winner?

BLACK: The royal baby is a winner in the sense that the royal baby got actually more focus from the American people than they've done on anything else in the last year. They were more focused on this baby for reasons that escape me. I think the baby in the end is the loser because I really wouldn't want to be part of the royal family. That's got to be an exhausting thing. You've got to stand up straight all the time. It's ridiculous.

(LAUGHTER)

MORGAN: Let's just go quick think through your three losers of the summer, Lewis.

BLACK: Weiner, Filner and the American people. Weiner obviously because he's -- what kind of -- first off, you go away for a while. Who told him outside of his wife and himself to run again? You go away. You go away, you go away, and when he comes back oh, yes, that guy, the one -- Weiner guy. But he didn't go away.

MORGAN: I think the answer, I think the answer, Lewis, is it was a load of women he'd never met on Twitter urging him to run again. You think that was the answer.

BLACK: It must have been. But what's amazing is Spitzer didn't get -- didn't have a problem. Isn't that something? Spitzer kind of made the transition.

MORGAN: Yes.

BLACK: Because I think everybody thought, you know, who's going to sleep with this guy except for hookers? His wife isn't.

MORGAN: Filner, Filner, I think -- Filner, I completely agree. I mean, he's already gone so we're done with him.

BLACK: Filner. Really that was like --

MORGAN: You didn't mention -- you didn't mention A-Rod. A-Rod and Edward Snowden. Quick word. Winners or losers?

BLACK: A-Rod is, you know, it's really good to make sure that children are becoming ambivalent about sports, so that they can watch and go, wow, I need him to hit a homerun, but he's done steroids and he's kind of creepy.

Then you've got Snowden, who's bizarre, because he's got to be a loser in a sense because you leave Hawaii and a stripper, and a pole, an actual pole in the house.

(LAUGHTER)

Who's got that? To go to live in Russia where my family is from. Initially. I wouldn't go back there.

MORGAN: Lewis, I've got to leave it there. I've enjoyed this so much. We need to bring you back to have more winners and losers next week.

BLACK: All right.

MORGAN: So we'll talk to you again soon, Lewis.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: I'm on vacation. I'm a winner.

MORGAN: Excellent. Well, you are a winner. "The Old Yeller Live at the Borgata" premiers live this Saturday, August 24th at 9:30 p.m. Eastern on pay-per-view.

Thanks as always to Lewis Black.

That's all for us tonight. Anderson Cooper starts in just a few moments.

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