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Piers Morgan Live
Intervoew with Rep. Peeter King; Interview with Reps. James Lankford and Debbie Wasserman Schutlz; Talking Finance with Suze Orman; Marking Sandy Hook Anniversary with a Pro-Gun Rally?
Aired October 14, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, PIERS MORGAN LIVE HOST: This is Piers Morgan live. Welcome to our viewers in United States and around the world.
Breaking News tonight, and the Senate is close to a deal; close but not yet done. And the clock as you can see is ticking. Here's what we now know, the deal was from the government but only until January the 15th and raise the debt ceiling into February the 7th, is that enough?
Well tonight, I'll talk to a top Republican who says his own party is at fault for the shutdown mess. Also, can Congress learn how to play nice? We'll see when two representatives go head to head. On the left Debbie Wasserman Schultz and on the right James Langford. Plus, what if the deal gets struck. Suze Orman has the advice you need to protect your money. She says some harsh words on Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUZE ORMAN, AMERICAN AUTHOR, FINANCIAL ADVISOR, MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER, TELEVISION HOST: You, yourself by your actions are bringing down the greatest country in the world and it is on your shoulders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Tough words there from Suze Orman. Also ask Mark Kelly what he thinks of the number one movie in America, Gravity. And the man who want -- well he wanted to turn the anniversary of Sandy Hook into and I'm quoting here directly, "Guns saves lives Day." I'll be talking him.
Here now is our big story, a big game of this making deal in Washington. Chief Congressional Correspondent Dana Bash, the world's hardest working woman right now joins me of the latest. Dana, are we nearly there?
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN: We're getting closer, but I'm definitely not going to predict that we are there we have seen these things fall apart and, you know, die several death before they come back to life.
But, Piers, all day long we are hearing from Democratic and Republican sources that the Democratic leader in the Senate, the Republican leader, have -- I watched them go back and forth to each other's offices and they do appear to have the framework of a deal. What is it? It's effectively to fund the government, reopen the government and fund it until January 15th but make clear that budget negotiation have to be finished to fund the government through the rest of the fiscal year which is what Congress is supposed to do every year that has to be at the middle of January -- middle of December rather. And then the debt ceiling which of course we're going to bump up against this Thursday that will be raised until February 7th.
Interesting little note there, Piers, it was supposed to be a week later but I was told that one hand it was moved up because that's a little bit of a give to Republicans because they want to have it closer because they think that that could leverage for their position. Another is, remember the next week is President's week here in the United States which is a Congressional recess so they don't want to bust another one of their recesses which is what they're doing now.
MORGAN: We couldn't have that could we? So how do you see tomorrow shaping up in terms of important key moments?
BASH: The key for this moment is going to be 11 A.M. tomorrow morning. Senate Republicans are going to meet when -- and the Republican leader Mitch McConnell is going to formally present the framework of this deal to the Senate rank and file.
So the question is going to be whether or not they're going for it. And I think the most important thing in a short term is going to be whether Ted Cruz who knows how to use a Senate procedural rules to his benefit when he wants to. Whether he is going to delay this or not, and if he does decided to lay it we could be bumping right up against that Thursday debt ceiling deadline when the U.S. could default.
MORGAN: Well, Dana, I find all my information on this from either your tweets to your reports all day, all night, all morning so congratulations on your heroic work.
BASH: Thank you.
MORGAN: And I hope that we reach some conclusion tomorrow. Well, I'm sure ...
BASH: Thank you.
MORGAN: ... we'll talk again tomorrow. Thank you.
Joining me now is Republican Congressman Peter King of New York. Congressman King, it's been a very rocky couple of weeks. Can we genuinely look forward to a deal tomorrow do you think?
REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: I certainly hope so. I mean the House Republicans will have to see exactly what the Senators come up with and we'll have a conference tomorrow morning. I'm certainly hoping we can resolve this.
I think we should have resolved it a month ago. We should have kept the government open and then we could have had real negotiations on the debt ceiling which to me is where the real issue was. Instead we've confused, we say, "Wait, too many people in the House Republican Party led by Ted Cruz in the Senate have managed to confuse this situation and turn the public against us." So I hope we can resolve this as quickly as possible, get the government open and erase the debt ceiling and must go on.
MORGAN: I mean is the Washington Post, ABC News pull out today, quite extraordinary figures here. Republicans, 74 percent of Americans disapprove of the way they've handled negotiations to the federal budgets, the better 61 percent in Democrats, 53 percent President Obama.
I mean if you're a Republican, this is pretty catastrophic isn't it? How much blame do you lay at the feet of Senator Cruz?
KING: I lay almost all of it at his feet because he's the one who started this. Now having said that, there was about 35 or 40 House Republicans who went along with him. But I can tell you from the beginning, Speaker Boehner and Charlie, Emelia Canter (ph) have both said, "We should not take this route that it's going to be disastrous." And sure enough it has been that we allowed 35 or 40 people based with the threat to bring the House down.
And as a result to that we're in this position that Ted Cruz is the one behind it and I said from the start he was a fraud because this strategy never had a chance to work that he knew it wasn't going to work but he was able to intimidate and influence people to go along with him saying that if we -- if the House voted to defund ObamaCare and shut the government down that he would take care of it when it got to the Senate. He had no chance of ever doing that, he knew it, this was just a stunt by him. And as a result to that the country is on the verge of default and the government has shutdown.
MORGAN: I mean it counts to something isn't it when the Chinese state run news agency carries a commentary which said it's perhaps a good time for the befuddled world to stop considering building a de- americanized world. And they've done that almost entirely on the back of Senator Cruz's efforts. So there's this man reportedly to be great a patriot, who maybe leading America into a place that really don't want to be.
KING: He's also managed to make ObamaCare more popular. I mean the approval ratings for ObamaCare have gone up over the last 10 days when we should have found every reason to be critical of it because of the very poor start up that it has had.
Now, in Senator Cruz, but he's also, Piers, I mean around the countries, a lot of Republican leaders who are standing on the outside criticizing Congress of what they're doing. It's not Congress, OK? The Congress, you can't blame us. They should go after Ted Cruz because even if this is resolved now and we get a three or four month hiatus here or seize fire whatever you want to call it. The fact is he's going to be back again, threatening to do it once again. And he's going to rewrite history to say we were on the verge of winning. The American people are just about to go our way when certain Republicans crack.
So we have to go after him. I wouldn't hope that measure leaves throughout the party, make a point in saying, "We're not going to allow Ted Cruz to hijack this party and bring the country to the edge of ruin. It's just wrong."
MORGAN: The problem ...
KING: And again ...
MORGAN: Well the problem you have Congressman and I'll say that with the greatest respect as I would to Senator McCain who talked to me about this (inaudible), he shares your view of what has happened here. But I guess Senator Cruz to think you were, you know, you guys are the old guard of the party, I'm the future ...
KING: Yes.
MORGAN: ... I'm young, I'm trusting, I'm one year into a six year term. He may well be looking at 2016 as a chance to win the nomination.
KING: Well, he maybe looking at it, but again it doesn't matter how long you've been in Congress. The fact is if you come up with a strategy that's going to shutdown the government of the United States and you have no way of winning, either you're a fraud, or you're totally incompetent. So he can have his choice as to what he is.
And also I would say that, again John McCain has been right on this and so with many others and they are overwhelming majority of prominent Republicans. I mean as far as (inaudible) in this Wall Street Journal, Charles Trout, (ph), Tom Coburn and Jeff Flake in the Senate. These are 110 percent conservatives said this is wrong from the start. The party allowed itself to be hijacked by this guy. We have to stand up to him and say no. Once this battle is over we're ready for the next one because he's going to try it again.
MORGAN: He certainly is. Peter King, thank you very much indeed.
KING: Piers, thank you.
MORGAN: Strong words from Peter King there. We're close to a deal tonight. But what will it take to actually get us there? Well something -- there's a lot of it at Washington these days, compromises to come into play. Let's see if we can get some of that tonight.
Joining me now is Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Chair of the Democratic National Committee, the author of the "For the Next Generation, A wake up call solving our nation's problems," and James Lankford, Chair of the House Republican Policy Committee.
We welcome back to both of you. We've spoken a lot in the last couple of weeks.
Debbie, what's happening about the issue with Peter King? Was the sheer venom of one Republican on other Republican, what is going on with the GOP right now?
REP. DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ (D), FLORIDA: Well, I mean I understand where Peter King is coming from in terms of that frustration but that's really passing the buck. I mean, the feet -- the blame really lays at the feet of the Republican Party. Each of them has a vote in their own right. They have the opportunity to do the right thing and not shut the government down and hold the economy hostage with the Affordable Care Act as ransom. And instead they went with the Tea Party and in fact that my counterpart at the RNC today, you'll actually urge the House Republicans to stay at the course and to hang in there.
I mean we're about to default and jeopardize the full state and credit of the United States and they are still -- their leaders are still fanning the flames.
MORGAN: Well, we had this extraordinary rally on Sunday, the million vet march on the memorials were Senator Cruz and Sarah Palin sent them. Well, I want to play a clip first of all from a man called Larry Klayman. He's a senior Tea Party activist from Freedom Watch, a conservative political advocacy group. Listen to what he said about the President of the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KLAYMAN, FREEDOM WATCH FOUNDER: I call upon all of you to wage a second American non violent revolution to use civil disobedience, and to demand that this President leave town, to get out, to put the Koran down, to get up off his knees, and to figuratively come up with his hands out, up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Let me ask you, actually he went on to say, "We want a country that's not ruled by a President who bows down to Allah and is not a President of we, the people."
I mean, James Lankford, when I hear people like this representing the Tea Party faction of the Republicans, I mean your heart just sings about the sheer stupidity of these people.
REP. JAMES LANKFORD, (R), OKLAHOMA: Yes, this is America where everyone can express their own opinion but it is uniquely their opinion. You're going to be a lot of people from the Tea Party, they're great folks all over the country, very concerned about debt. They're not going to have rhetoric of that sense. He can have whatever rhetoric he choose to have in a free country, and to be able to speak out on that. He's not necessarily voicing it for all Americans or for all people that represent even party value.
MORGAN: OK. Let's play a second clip here from Senator Ted Cruz at the same event.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SENATOR TED CRUZ, (R), TEXAS : This is the peoples' memorial. Let me ask you a simple question. Why is the Federal Government spending money to erect barricade to keep veterans out of this memorial? Why did that Federal Government spend money to erect barricades to keep people out of Mount Vernon?
Why did the Federal Government spend money to erect barricade to keep people out of Mount Rushmore? Look. Our veterans should be above politics. Enough games.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: So, it's like but am I the most naive person in America or wasn't it the same Senator Cruz that caused the shutdown that led to all this?
LANKFORD: Well, he was definitely a part of it in all that that the challenge of it is not just that there's a shutdown is that something unique did happen. That for instance the Lincoln Memorial has never been closed, 18 different government shutdowns that have occurred, there's never been barricades erected around them. It's an open air memorial.
You know, so it is a little odd. Suddenly, there is this shutdown and there's barricades and there's people there. There are more guards actually keeping people out then there are typically when it's open is there. That is a little odd I have to tell you and begs the question of why is the Federal Government spending so much money to fight to keep an open up memorial closed that has not been closed before in previous shutdowns that under in a regular administration ordering the clinic.
MORGAN: OK. Senator Lankford, thank you very much. You'll stay with me, Debbie. What was your reaction first of all to what he just said?
SCHULTZ: Well, it's just unbelievable that what they're outraged about is not that 800,000 federal employees are furloughed. I had a woman--I was watching my daughter's soccer game on Saturday when we had a chance to go home after votes. A woman who works for Social Security, a fellow soccer mom came over to me and said it was her 10th day, you know on furlough. She and her husband and their child, you know, paycheck to paycheck, her husband is a salesman.
They live on commission plus her salary and she didn't know how they were going to pay their mortgage if this went on much longer. I mean the question that should be asked is why did we have to shut the government down in order to make sure that we could find a way to work together on other issues?
MORGAN: Well, the sheer nonsensical situation that the guy who caused it standing by the barricades if thing go on.
SCHULTZ: Come on.
MORGAN: I mean ridiculous...
SCHULTZ: You know what analogy I heard today that was perfect was that based on what Ted Cruz said. What he's arguing is like say that complaining that the supermarket is shutdown but we can't get to the bread aisle.
MORGAN: It's just...
SCHULTZ: I mean it's ridiculous...
MORGAN: It said on your book, "For The Next Generation," that was sure extremely glamorous photograph on the cover there but you'll probably going to solve all our nation's problems. Very quickly, tell me about the book and what do you think we can learn from this in relation to what's going on right now?
SCHULTZ: Well, I wrote it really as one mom who happens to serve in Congress. In order to sound an alarm belt because we're right in the midst of--the main reason I wrote the book because we have so many dire pressing issues that have been--it's like we blocked out the sun when there's government shutdown and we almost reached the thoughts.
We have to work together. It doesn't have to be this way. The Tea Party has taken us to the absolute extreme edge of the political process and we need to come back together. We need more parents to get engaged...
MORGAN: Women, do you think?
SCHULTZ: And we need more women...
MORGAN: And women better negotiating with other women would more get done in Washington. It wasn't for all these testosterone alpha males marching around?
SCHULTZ: You know, I think we need more women because in my experience in the women in Congress on both sides of the aisle talk about this all the time, how if they just put us in a room together more often, we could solve a lot of these problems. Women are more focused on consensus building, not every woman but, you know, the times that I've worked with women, women are not as focused on obliterating the other side. They want to find a way to get to yes.
MORGAN: Debbie it's a terrific book, "For The Next Generation."
SCHULTZ: Thank you.
MORGAN: Good luck, Ms. Schultz. With Julie (ph) and Fenster (ph), a wake up call to solve and organize your problems much needed right now, a solution to these problems. Good luck with that.
SCHULTZ: Thank you.
MORGAN: When we come back, standby America, Suze Orman is here to tell you what you should do now to protect your money and what she's going to say about Washington. Let me tell you, she's going to let rip.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
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(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: If you've been following the drama in Washington over the past weeks, you're going to be at least a little worried about what it all means for you and your money. Well my next guest is a perfect person to talk you through how to get through this shutdown unscathed or relatively unscathed she's here tonight, Suze Orman, the host of CNBC's Suze Orman, welcome back to you, Suze.
ORMAN: Thank you.
MORGAN: And normally we meet in these nice civilized circumstances. We have a nice happy chat. I'd imagine you're pretty angry right now.
ORMAN: I think what's going on in Washington really is the biggest travesty that ever happened to the United States of America. You know, I've recently just come back from Asia from Malaysia and we are the laughing stock now over there. It says if, oh, how's the circus going?
So, I'm sorry that this is happening. This didn't need to happen. They had all the time in the world knowing that this was coming up, why do they always have to wait to the last minute? And this is political shenanigans. It has nothing to do with money. This has to do with politics and it is affecting those that really can't afford to have it affect them.
MORGAN: Talk me through the various potential really big deadlines as we go forward of what it means for the American people.
ORMAN: You know, I personally think that October 17th is not the big one, believe it or not.
MORGAN: Which is debt ceiling deadline.
ORMAN: The deadline. I'm more worried about November 15th when a massive amount of treasury notes, bills, bonds, whatever come due and if we haven't settled things then, how does the government decide who gets paid and who doesn't get paid. What it really means is that now when people are buying their treasury, they're going to have to get a higher interest rate. People who live here, I'm not giving you my money for half a percent. You might not pay it back, United States. The people overseas, I'm not giving you the money for a low interest rate. So what will happen Piers is this. Interest rates will have to go up because now there is a risk in owning treasuries. Never before, first time ever.
When interest rates go up, they go up across the board. So, if you happen to have and adjust full rate mortgage on your home, your interest rate is going to start to go up. If you have adjustable rates on your student loans, your interest rate is going to up. If you have anything like credit card debt, it's going to cost you more.
MORGAN: Across the board for the average American...
ORMAN: Across the board. Yes.
MORGAN: ... what is going on will quite likely lead to significant increases, you know, general cost?
ORMAN: And when all of that happens, housing markets slows down. If this puts us into a recession, businesses stop hiring, we stop expanding, everything was going so great. We were right on track to pull this out by 2014, 2015 which you know I predicted back in 2008, and now, we're like, damn, stop. You know, and what's so sad is that the people who aren't furloughed, the people who are trying to get certain types of home loans in rural areas, all of them are like what about me? Don't I count? They're Americans, Piers and we should be taking care of them.
MORGAN: I feel strongly, not just that I'm interviewing quite a few people that being furloughed and others who become victims but not through furlough, they just lose business.
ORMAN: That's right.
MORGAN: You know, say they were running a bar down by this Statue of Liberty or whatever it may be, there must be so many people like that...
ORMAN: Yeah.
MORGAN: ... who will never get that money back. The furloughed people, they will get their money back. History says they will. But the young people, God knows, how many are millions probably.
ORMAN: Yeah. You know, I was just in San Francisco the other day and it didn't even dawn on me. It's like, oh, the parks, the parks are going to be closed. I was going to go to this restaurant, the Cliff House that's right part of the Golden Gates park system, closed. It has nothing do to with the park. It has nothing to do with the government but there it is and you can get to it because it's part of the park where the park is. What are they doing? So, yeah.
MORGAN: What are they doing? I mean, tell me what the politicians are doing here. What do you make of the way they're conducting their business in America's name? ORMAN: They are playing, as I said before in my opinion, political shenanigans. It's their -- I don't know why they're doing it. They are posturing. They're coming up against one another, and you know, Jack Wells, he was a very brilliant man. He really is. I heard him in an interview the other day saying, "the first part about negotiation is you make somebody an offer that you know they're going to accept them and...
MORGAN: That was on this show actually. Glad you're watching.
ORMAN: You're right. But, you see what I mean, and it's like he's right. And it's very, very sad that the entire United States could be hijacked by a few people in politics.
MORGAN: When you see Senator Ted Cruz, he's clearly seized his opportunity to become a front man for the Tea Party. He betrays himself as a great American patriot. But the reality is that from what you could see at the moment, he's causing America untold damaged.
ORMAN: Yeah, untold damage and I get that they don't want ObamaCare, whatever it is, but why were they focusing for the past two months on something that was sanctioned by the Supreme Court, it's in, it's there for whatever it's in, why were they focusing all their energy on that 'cause that alone isn't going to solve the problems, it's why would they really talking like adults rather than two-year old children that just want to be seen in public.
MORGAN: And as Peter King said to me earlier, I mean, the irony is that had they not had all these government shutdown nonsense. They could have focus on ObamaCare which actually started in a pretty rocky way...
ORMAN: Yes.
MORGAN. ... you know, and the system itself hasn't really worked. Republicans could have had a field day with that causing President Obama and the Democrats significant damage physically.
ORMAN: Yeah. So, the real question is now, we could talk forever about how ridiculous they are. That is why it is very important that the people in the United States now have their own save yourself plan. How many times have I sat here across and we go. Government is not going to save you. The stock market is not going to save you. You have got to save yourself, so.
MORGAN: OK. Hold that thought because that's exactly what I'm going to come but after the break. Exactly, what American should do to save money, how much they should put aside, and how they do that?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FMR, U.S. PRESIDENT: Politics is not theology. It's work. And the framers of the constitution gave us a system that was supposed to produce honorable compromised after honest debate. Because nobody's got the whole truth, nobody's right all the time. And the more complex problems are, the more you need people to work together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Wise words from the President who weathered the last shutdown, Bill Clinton. What about you and your money? And back with me now is Suze Orman who is just mad as hell as we all are.
ORMAN: But I'm going to tell everybody about it.
MORGAN: A quite of few people have been on this show on the last couple of weeks who have really suffered clearly had no provision to deal with being furloughed or whatever it may have been, the loss of income, that may be through circumstance. But can you plan for that? Whatever your income may be?
ORMAN: Well, if we hadn't just been coming out of one of the most major devastations to the United States, 2008, 2009, and so forth, maybe there would have been time to plan for this but many people, Piers, were out of work to no fault of their own truthfully, we totally shrank during those years and now they were just getting back on their feet again. So they didn't have time really to get their eight-month emergency fund back in place because they used it up over the past two years or three years that they were trying to get a job.
MORGAN: What is the best way for people in America? They may not be high income, you know, reasonably modest income who want to set aside a bit of money. Should they do it weekly, monthly, how should they do it in a most effective way to capitalize on that income?
ORMAN: Most likely, every time they get a paycheck, if they could automatically pay themselves first, you know, most people, the truth of the matter is they don't have any money. They've got a car debt, car loan debt, student loan debt, mortgage debt, and the only money that they save is money usually in their 401(k), their 403(b), if they work for nonprofit, or their TSP if they're in the military.
So, here is what I would tell them, stop putting money in a traditional 401(k). Many corporations today now are offering you Roth 401(k), contribute as much as you possibly can to that. Usually to the point of the match that your corporations gives. If you get into trouble, I hate when people take loans from a traditional 401(k), that's a traditional 401(k) is funded with money you were never paid taxes on, if you pay back that loan you're paying it back with money you've already pay taxes on. So, later on in life you're paying taxes again when you withdraw. Never loan from a traditional. But in a Roth 401(k) you've already paid taxes on that money. So, if you need money now to get by I don't have a problem with you taking a loan from a Roth 401(k) to get the gap. Biggest mistakes people make is they stop contributing to the stock market during times like this, stop contributing to their retirement accounts, and or if they have money in the stock market they withdraw it all, if they do that and they have time 10 years or 20 years until they retire will be the biggest mistake they ever make at this point. MORGAN: What can America do about this funda mental problem which is $17 trillion of debt still over 7 percent of the workforce unemployed? What can America do as a nation to tackle those two huge hydrous which are dominating the economic landscape?
ORMAN: Truthfully if I had an answer for that right now I probably would be President of the United States. So, I'm not so sure because there's an answer because we were so overspending for so many years, now they're really going to have to make cuts and cuts always hurts the people that need it the most. But people, everyday people there are things that they can do. So, you should at least try, a one month emergency fund is better than, you know, than no emergency fund, three months is better than one month. Have money somewhere that you can access it. Now a Roth IRA if you could just put little amounts of money in a Roth IRA, if you're working that money you can take out at any time without taxes or penalty.
So, the real question, your original contribution. So, the question becomes when you're in trouble what do you do? Where do you get money from first and what bills do you pay and what bills do you not pay? And if people understood that then at least they would have a little bit of a game plan to get themselves by. So, if you're really in trouble and you don't have any money and you have credit card debt because you've been using your credit cards to get by that would be the first bill that I did not pay if I really had no money at all because of the furlough or what was happening right now.
MORGAN: Finally, Suze what was your message to the politicians in Washington? Now it looks there maybe a deal tomorrow that almost certainly will be by Wednesday if not because they're not going to take the debt ceiling I'm sure pass that deadline. So, what is your message to them going forward?
ORMAN: You have a few months here to get your act together. You have a few months to really take to heart that you have been elected to represent every single person in the United States of America whether they have money or they don't have a penny to their name. And you need to understand that if you don't help those that have nothing you are also hurting those that have something, and you yourself by your own actions are bringing down the greatest country in the world and it is on your shoulders. So, you have a few months everybody, to get your acts together. You better not come back in January and February and say, "Oh we're waiting to the last minute again." Use this time to really help the country that you have been elected to take care of.
MORGAN: Suze Orman great to see you.
MORGAN: A very wise words for the politicians and the American people. Coming next the man who started campaign to call the day of the first anniversary of the Sandy Hook massacre, "Guns Saves Lives Day." This should be interesting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MORGAN: Still utterly shocking to contemplate the fact that 26 people, 20 of them first graders were mowed down by disturbed gunman, Adam Lanza of Sandy Hook Elementary School. We're approaching the first anniversary of that massacre and some gun groups want to mark the day in an event they're calling, "Guns Save Lives Day." And joining me now is Alan Gottlieb the Second Amendment Foundation as a key sponsor of the event. Mr. Gottlieb welcome to you. I know that you've just moves the day now for your plan of action to the day after December the 14th, is this after a huge pressure not least from the families in Newton who were outrage.
But let me go back to your decision to announce and these are your words, "We are proclaiming Saturday, December the 14th which is the first anniversary of Sandy Hook as Guns Save Lives Day. In the coming weeks you can go to GunsSaveLivesDay.com and get updates on this open source national project that all freedom loving organizations are going to be a part of. We're going to show America that there is a good side to guns." Why did you think the December the 14th would be a good day to show Americans a good side to guns Mr. Gottlieb?
ALAN GOTTLIEB, FOUNDER, SECOND AMENDMENT FOUNDATION: Well, Piers we pick that date because the gun prohibition lobby was planning on accelerating and launching their new attacks on 80 million law abiding firearms owners, firearm civil rights. To, we picket the response to that. We are planning on starting each event of with a moment of silence and a prayer by the way, but we decided to move it to the 15th so that our message will be loud and clear. And by the way December 15th happens to be Bill of Rights Day. So, we moved it one day in the hope that the anti-gun rights movement in United States would back off as well.
MORGAN: Yes, obviously it has nothing to do with the Bill of Rights Day you would have made that day to start with. So, let's just start on what the reaction was from the Newtown families, Erica Lafferty, the daughter of murdered Newtown principal Dawn Hochsprung said, "December the 14th the sacred day for Newton families, this should be about our loved ones not this disgusting political stunt. These people will be trampling on the graves of the innocent children and educators who were murdered that day." Why you -- why you laughing?
GOTTLIEB: Because that's totally over the top, that's not what our intent was, that's not what -- we were going to do was. And again not all the Newtown families...
MORGAN: You plan -- you plan a -- you plan a campaign...
GOTTLIEB: Piers...
MORGAN: ...wait a minute...
MORGAN: Wait a minute Mr. Gottlieb.
GOTTLIEB: How many days...
MORGAN: Wait a minute. You plan a campaign to promote the good side of guns on the first anniversary of the worst mass shooting at a school in American history and you had a goal to laugh when I read out a quote, from one of the victim's families. How dare you?
GOTTLIEB: Piers how dare the anti-gun movement I've been using this tragedy all year long...
MORGAN: This is a family member...
GOTTLIEB: ...and plan.
MORGAN: She's the daughter of the principal...
GOTTLIEB: Wait, and they plan to do it...
MORGAN: ....of the school who was killed. How dare you?
GOTTLIEB: Hey, my heart goes after them. My heart goes after them and I have children, grandchildren myself, but that doesn't allow them to use that day either to attack my rights.
We're backing off to go to the December 15th, Bill of Rights Day the next day. Now, will they back off? Will you back off? How many times this year have you attacked gun rights in your show? 60? 70?
MORGAN: I won't back off...
GOTTLIEB: 80 times?
MORGAN: ...people like you.
GOTTLIEB: I think you use December. I bet you use December 14th to push your anti-gun agenda.
MORGAN: You darn right. I'll use that day to promote guns...
GOTTLIEB: Thank you. And that exactly why we're responding...
MORGAN: ...to promote gun safety in American Mr. Gottlieb. And I'll do it on behalf of these families. Let me read you. Let me read you...
GOTTLIEB: ...self defense.
MORGAN: If you may give me a word. Let me read you what Neil Heslin his son Jesse was killed said. It's really important...
GOTTLIEB: I can't hear...
MORGAN: Wait a minute. Give these people...
GOTTLIEB: My heart goes down...
MORGAN: Give these people...
GOTTLIEB: But it wasn't gun...
(INAUDIBLE)
MORGAN: Your heart doesn't go out to them. You laugh at them as you did just a minute ago.
GOTTLIEB: Piers you don't know about my heart. You're just pushing me and my...
(INAUDIBLE)
GOTTLIEB: That's probably why you don't have as many viewers as anybody else does, because people turned you off.
MORGAN: Sure. Let me just read to you a comment here from Neil Heslin whose son Jesse was killed at Sandy Hook. It's really important judges to your decision to have the campaign on December the 14th. "I would everyone would give the respect that Ethan (ph) deserve. I want to see a day of remembrance in memorial for the people who lost their lives. I want politics to stay out of Newtown at Sandy Hook that day".
But you wouldn't allow them that, would you? Mr. Gottlieb, you're one of the...
GOTTLIEB: Campaign...
(INAUDIBLE)
MORGAN: A campaign promoting that gun...
GOTTLIEB: Piers you just said that you won't back off, that you're going to use that day on your show to promote your agenda.
So, if you're not...
MORGAN: Again, Mr. Gottlieb...
GOTTLIEB: ...why shouldn't anybody else?
MORGAN: Mr. Gottlieb, you're misquoting it. What I said was I would use that day...
GOTTLIEB: No, I'm not misquoting you.
MORGAN: Wait a minute Mr. Gottlieb. I was say...
GOTTLIEB: Play your own tape back.
MORGAN: I want to see if you challenge for what I'm about to say. I said that I will use that day to promote gun safety on behalf of those families, which part of that sentence do you find offensive?
GOTTLIEB: Because your definition of gun safety is banning guns and confiscating guns. Your petitions of guns safety, misusing the word safety...
(INAUDIBLE)
MORGAN: ...a single gun.
GOTTLIEB: Where do...
MORGAN: Yeah where? GOTTLIEB: You support people owning assault weapons?
(INAUDIBLE)
MORGAN: Where have I ever said...
(INAUDIBLE)
MORGAN: ...a single gun.
GOTTLIEB: No, you don't.
MORGAN: No. I've never Mr. Gottlieb...
GOTTLIEB: You compare Britain -- where Britain where they banned guns and you think that's great.
MORGAN: Yeah. How many gun murders we have a year in Britain Mr. Gottlieb?
GOTTLIEB: Well, actually if you read the reports today, the...
MORGAN: How many gun murders a year?
GOTTLIEB: ...the only important in Britain -- well, one of the promises that...
MORGAN: You know the answer.
GOTTLIEB: ...is not accurate...
MORGAN: You know the answer.
GOTTLIEB: ...the story about today. I don't know the answer because the data given up (inaudible).
MORGAN: Let me help you.
GOTTLIEB: ...is not accurate...
MORGAN: Let me help you.
(INAUDIBLE)
MORGAN: Let me help you Mr. Gottlieb.
GOTTLIEB: Again, with the stories today, today is news and you'll see that data is not accurate.
MORGAN: Thank you.
GOTTLIEB: People (inaudible)...
MORGAN: Let me give you some accurate data. 35 people on average...
GOTTLIEB: (inaudible) but they just admitted... MORGAN: Mr. Gottlieb.
GOTTLIEB: ...that is not accurate.
MORGAN: Give me some time please.
GOTTLIEB: You don't have accurate data...
MORGAN: Mr. Gottlieb, be quiet. 35 people a year on average are killed by guns in Britain, right? In America it's 11 to 12,000. And you know the reason?
GOTTLIEB: Well, guess what...
MORGAN: It's so many people get killed by guns in America because it is like you and I use that word back from the...
GOTTLIEB: That's (inaudible)...
MORGAN: ...thinks it's funny to laugh in the middle of me reading out a statement from the victim's family...
GOTTLIEB: Well, Piers...
MORGAN: ...of Sandy Hook.
GOTTLIEB: Piers all your emotional rhetoric doesn't solve any problems. All it does is polarize the right situation and make talking to check good answers to solve the problems.
Its people like you that politicize it not me. You've done it 40, 50, 60, times in your show this year.
MORGAN: Yeah. I just want less Americans to die from guns. What about you?
GOTTLIEB: You want less Americans to own guns period, right?
MORGAN: I think that would be a good thing, yes.
GOTTLIEB: Thank you which is truly my point.
MORGAN: Yeah. I kind of think that you have too many guns in this country, I think too many people walk around with...
GOTTLIEB: Well, thank you.
MORGAN: ... assault rifle. Do you remember the last time we had an interview together?
GOTTLIEB: But look, there's so many people everyday saved their lives because of gun...
MORGAN: What a lot of nonsense Mr. Gottlieb. It's a lot of nonsense.
GOTTLIEB: ...by the Federal Government. MORGAN: You just invented that statistic.
GOTTLIEB: I didn't invent that. National in Justice (inaudible)...
MORGAN: The last time you came on my show. Do you remember the last time you came on my show?
GOTTLIEB: Yes, I do.
MORGAN: What day was that?
GOTTLIEB: It was most enjoyable?
MORGAN: What day was that?
GOTTLIEB: It was right after the Newtown.
MORGAN: That was right...
GOTTLIEB: And it was night before right after.
MORGAN: No, no. You can't even remember. It was December of 12th. It was just before Newtown.
GOTTLIEB: It was two days before.
MORGAN: Right. Yeah, you were laughing then as well, and we discussed the AR-15 assault rifle.
GOTTLIEB: Well, the last time that you appears on -- I'm laughing at you Piers.
MORGAN: With respect you're still laughing, I know. You find it all terribly funny, I don't. But on that day you told me...
GOTTLIEB: No I don't find it funny either...
MORGAN: You told me...
GOTTLIEB: ...that's why people have the right...
MORGAN: Mr. Gottlieb, you told me that day...
GOTTLIEB: ...(inaudible) should be victim.
MORGAN: You can keep talking...
GOTTLIEB: People in Newtown shouldn't be a victim.
MORGAN: Right.
GOTTLIEB: People tomorrow shouldn't be a victim.
MORGAN: Mr. Gottlieb, just to remind you what you taught me that day. You spend a long time in that interview on the December the 12th 2012 informing me that I was exaggerating the dangers of the AR-15 assault rifle. And two days later Adam Lanza took an AR-15 to Sandy Hook and he shot dead 20 children first graders.
GOTTLIEB: And it's disgusting and it's horrible but it wasn't the gun, but he also had a rifle and a shotgun, and a hand gun. The bottom line is he could use any gun Piers that the problem was if somebody would have been on that school grounds armed to protect the children, so their lives had been save. We all have been happy. It would have been a blessing.
MORGAN: Let me leave with the final words some Shannon Watson (ph) moms demand action to gun sense in America. A group formed in response...
GOTTLIEB: Another gun control group.
MORGAN: Right. Gun safety is a better phrase isn't it, Mr Gottlieb? She said...
GOTTLIEB: No. If gun safety is a misnomer.
MORGAN: OK.
GOTTLIEB: These people had never even shot a gun. They've never been trained for safety.
MORGAN: I showed them the AR-15.
GOTTLIEB: Go to a gun range and train for safety.
MORGAN: Mr. Gottlieb, let me just -- if you would just let me read what she said, "American mothers were not allowed, deprave the vocal minority, to sully or smear, the memory of the victims of Sandy Hook".
I want to say this to you Mr. Gottlieb. What you did...
GOTTLIEB: Nobody is securing...
MORGAN: What you did...
GOTTLIEB: ...memories.
MORGAN: What you did...
GOTTLIEB: ...to every victim of (inaudible).
MORGAN: What you did Mr. Gottlieb in launching this campaign for the first anniversary of Sandy Hook was one of the most disgusting things I have ever had to witness and you should be ashamed of yourself.
GOTTLIEB: But your 50, 60, 70 anti-gun shows that you've done picking on the rights of gun is not disgusting, not politicizing or polarizing anything.
MORGAN: OK. I've had enough of you.
(INAUDIBLE)
MORGAN: ...we're moving on.
Next, did gun save lives? Gabrielle Giffords survived a near fatal shooting almost two years ago. Alaska husband Captain Mark Kelly, what he thinks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Houston , this is Explorer. We've been hit by debris. We need immediate assistance. Do you copy? Houston, do you read?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Houston. Come in, Houston.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Houston, come in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: And that was lives take on the space thriller "Gravity" and the government shutdown of 18,000 employees forced out of job. And NASA furlough is a serious business. Joining me now, former NASA's South Wing Commander, Captain Mark Kelly. Mark, great to see you again. Just want to ask you one question about the interviews conducted with Mr. Gottlieb about the situation involving the Sandy Hook Anniversary. I had a tweet actually while that was going on from the woman that I quote said, Erica Lafferty who was the daughter of the principal Dawn Hochsprung at New Town. And she just said, "What about my mother's rights to live", which I thought was a pretty powerful way of crystalizing this debate.
How do we get through this, Mark? I mean, you know, you and Gabby are obviously second amendment supporters. You understand both sides of this debate. How do we get past this notion that you have to celebrate the anniversary of Sandy Hook with pro-gun campaign?
MARK KELLY, NASA ASTRONAUT (RET.): Well, I don't think there's many people out there that want to do that, Piers. I was asked a question the other day. You know, I think it's an insensitive thing to do but I think your interview kind of demonstrates the issue. You know, the interview with Mr. Gottlieb that people just talking pass each other. And, you know, that's why Gabby and I have been trying to engage with other gun owners like us and ask them, you know, directly and try to work with them.
We were recently -- just yesterday, we were at a gun show in New York with the Attorney General where they have come up with the sub model procedures on how to do background checks at gun shows. And, when you travel around the gun show, and you speak to, you know, folks there that are either selling or buying, when you explain what the procedure is, nobody seems to have much of a problem with it.
MORGAN: Let's move on. But you're not told about guns many times, so I'm sure, unfortunately, we will have to again because there will be more and more outrage. But let turn to the shutdown, interestingly, your twin brother Scott who is also an astronaut has been furloughed, I understand.
KELLY: You know, he is not only been furloughed. He actually applied for unemployment the other day and my brother is going to be the Commander of the Space Station in 2015 for a year. He's flown three space missions, and, you know, NASA put out some information on how NASA employees like my brother, like astronauts could file for unemployment. Not a -- have a good day in earth.
MORGAN: This is absolutely ridiculous. Isn't it?
KELLY: It is ridiculous. And I -- you know what, as, you know, as we saw with the gun issue and so many other issues in this country even when Americans like 92 percent of people who support background checks or I imagine more than that who would like to see the government reopened and the debt ceiling raised. Congress is not capable of doing that. And really struggles with coming up with bipartisan solutions to this country's problems. It's not a good day. MORGAN: How do we get through that, Mark? You know, as you say it comes down to the same thing. It comes down to the paralysis in Washington. Supposedly the most powerful political center in the world seemingly now unable to make any kind of positive decision about anything.
KELLY: Well, we've done this to ourselves, Piers. You know, we've gerrymandered these Congressional Districts, you know, the House Districts into a point where you have folks on either side of the isle that need to be just incredibly conservative or incredibly liberal to avoid losing their job in a primary and that's not the way the system was supposed to be. When Gabby was in Congress, she was a person in the middle. She could reach a card across the isle to work with her Republicans to solve these problems but gerrymandering has made that very difficult to do.
MORGAN: Mark, let's take a short break. Come back and talk about "Gravity", this blockbuster movie that everyone's going crazy for. I wonder if you've seen it and whether you think it's accurate. You should know. You've been up there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh my god, you need to focus...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Shutdown made 1,000 of NASA employees out on the coal including Mark, Kelly's brother. But at theaters a 3D space thriller "Gravity" is packing them in. Starring Sandra Bullock and of course George Clooney. Captain Kelly, have you seen "Gravity", what do you make of it?
KELLY: Gabby and I went to see that about a week ago, Piers. I thought it was a great movie. I mean it was really fantastic. They did an awesome job of making the zero gravity look realistic but also making what the outside of the space station looks like -- look like -- or the outside of the space shuttle for that matter. I mean it was just -- to me it almost felt like being back in space until all the bad stuffs started to happen.
MORGAN: Very quickly, Mark's out of 10 authenticity.
KELLY: Well, I mean -- so here's the thing, Piers. The real physics of space flight doesn't make a great movie but the look and the feel of the movie was outstanding and it was very entertaining. You know, there's some things that just, you know, aren't reality. You know, for instance, you know, there isn't an extra Soyuz spacecraft as a rescue vehicle just being left at the space station with no crew there to occupy it, same thing with the Chinese space station. So, you know, we don't have spares of those usually.
MORGAN: Mark Kelly, it's great to talk to you as always. Come at a ranges of topics as always and send my very best to Gabby.
KELLY: Thank you, Piers. Thank you very much.
MORGAN: That's all for tonight. AC 360 Later starts right now.
