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Piers Morgan Live

Last-Minute Deal to Reopen Government, Raise Debt Ceiling Passes Senate; House to Take Up Vote; Interview with Sen. Pryor; Interview with Rep. Kingston, Rep. Becerra; Interview with Ann Coulter

Aired October 16, 2013 - 21:00   ET


PIERS MORGAN, CNN ANCHOR: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the States and around the world. Tonight, breaking news, the frantic, last-minute deal to reopen the government and raise the debt ceiling. With the deadline less than three hours away, the Senate tonight voted to avoid a default and to get federal agencies back running and bring federal employees back to work. The Senate therefore says yes, but will the GOP-controlled House follow suit? It's expected to take up the deal any moment. If the House does approve, this brings a temporary end to the crushing and bitter partisan battle that's taking a heavy toll across America.

President Obama spoke just a short time ago. Listen to this.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to thank the leaders of both parties for getting us to this point. Once these agreements arise on my desk, I will sign it immediately. We'll begin reopening our government immediately.


MORGAN: With more on the breaking news, the deal the president has been waiting for is now before the House. Joining me now is Senior White House Correspondent Brianna Keilar and Chief Congressional Correspondent Dana Bash. Brianna, I'll start with you. I mean, they are claiming that it is not a great victory of the White House, but it is isn't it?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think in Washington terms it might be a victory and that President Obama is let's say loser than some of the other folks here, Piers. But I think when you look at for instance maybe in polls he's the winner, he's doing better even than Democrats, Democrats are doing better than Republicans but this is the first year after his reelection and he doesn't have a whole lot to show for it. This is really the year where a reelected president should have their mojo to be able to accomplish something. And poll numbers do not equal a legacy and not only that, it's possible we could be here all over again in a few months although I asked the President about it. Here's the question and answer.


KEILAR: Mr. President, is this going to happen all over again in a few months?



KEILAR: He seemed pretty sure there, Piers, that it's not going to happen all over again. But remember, this is a short-term funding bill. It only goes until mid-January. He's going to have to deal with some of the same dynamics here, but White House officials insisted it just doesn't make sense that Republicans would pick this fight again, that they were such losers in all of this, and that if they get closer to the midterm elections, the negative impact on them will even -- will just be that much greater until they say it doesn't make sense but it really stands. So really, we just going to have to wait and see if that really does happen.

MORGAN: I think if not making sense was a criteria for not doing things, you wouldn't been through this mess to start with. Dana Bash, let me come to you. What is the mood really about all these because clearly the Republicans have been ripping each other apart and is deemed by many in the party it would've been a bit of a disaster. Having said that, Ted Cruz is out there front and center positioning himself as the new key man and may see it as a short-term set back but as part of a much wider war.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He certainly does. And he believes that in his world of conservatism and the people that he's appealing to out there who think that he is doing the right thing that he is a winner. The problem really is that as much as Republican leaders and particular in the House today in a private meeting I'm told try to heal -- begin to heal the wounds. If they're not going to be healed, if Ted Cruz continues and others like him continue to say that their strategy was right and they woke up the American people and so forth.

You definitely are seeing maybe an even bigger divide as these days and hours go on. And the more moderate Republicans that I talked to in the hallways here are becoming even more vocal saying that the Republican Party particularly those in the House, because they are the only part of the government that actually has control -- where Republicans have control -- that they have to be more aggressive in working with Democrats and being bipartisan, and being part of the conversation or else, they're not going -- they're going to be so blast out in the cold.

So that definitely is the feeling out here but we can make -- we can be sure according to sources that I have talked to specially those who were in this meeting earlier today with John Boehner, Eric Cantor, and Kevin McCarthy. The three Republican leaders, they are trying very hard to try to heal the wounds even as they pretty much admitted that this is a big time defeat.

MORGAN: Dana, very quickly. What will happen next do you think over the next few hours and indeed tomorrow morning?

BASH: What we're really waiting for the bill, physically the bill that just passed the Senate to come down probably even this hallway into the House. I've moved over to the House side because this is the action is going to be tonight. And then, it's just a matter of time before the House gets this on the floor. Republican leaders are trying to work an expedite process so they don't have to wait here all night into the wee hours but we'll see if that is going to happen. But we should see a vote probably before midnight, maybe even sooner.

MORGAN: Well, I will be waiting to the wee hours as I suspect you will Dana because you never sleep burning job as always and we'll see you again. We're having a live show at midnight so we'll come back with an update then. Thank you very much to you and to Brianna.

Wit me now is Democratic Senator Mark Pryor of Arkansas who's on the Senate Appropriations Committee. Welcome to you, Senator. What is your take on all of these? I mean clearly the people who suffered are the American people and all those have been furloughed and the American economy. Are there winners and losers politically do you think?

SEN. MARK PRYOR (D) ARKANSAS: Well, I don't know but, you know, this was completely avoidable and I think most people understand that, you know, my view of it is that you have a small group of Republicans mostly on the House side but a small group for Republicans. It's not all Republicans but a small group that's driving the train and is they just about drove us over the cliff here. And it's not good for the country.

I hope that today really is a win for bipartisanship. I was part of the bipartisan group led by Susan Collins of Maine, a Republican. And we put together basically the framework that the leaders use and we were glad to do it and it works. And even though most people never tell you this, you know, on talk radio or wherever else, the only way you get things done in Washington is about working together by doing in a bipartisan way. So hopefully this is a victory for bipartisanship.

MORGAN: You talked about a train. Let's go to the engine driver, Mr. Cruz. Watch this.


SEN. TED CRUZ (R) TEXAS: I am confident that in time the US Senate will follow the lead of the House of Representatives and listen to the American people. That is our job. That is our responsibility. This is a terrible deal today but it's a terrible deal for the American people.


MORGAN: Now, Sarah Palin was the queen of the Tea Party. We now have a self-anointed king of the Tea Party. He's smart. He's articulate, I suppose and that was (ph) yesterday who told him that Harvard called him one of the most brilliant students he'd ever had. This guy has a plan and a strategy. And my gut feeling is he wants to run the Republicans into 2016 and be a representative. Can anyone him?

PRYOR: Well, you know, we'll let the political process work. He'll go through the political primary process. And if they nominate him, they nominate him and, you know, who know who the Democrats will have, but I do think that one of the points is important to make is I try to -- very hard, very, very hard to listen to the people in the Sate of Arkansas. That's who I work for and I live in Arkansas. When I'm home, I hear over and over and over people say, "Why can't you guys just get along? If you all could get along, then everything would work smoother." And you know what, they're right. That's how you get things done is by working together.

And I think people are fed up with Washington and understandably so. I'm fed up with it. And, you know, we don't need this my way or the highway approach, we need a bipartisan, a more measured, a sure or better way to go forward and go forward together. And I think that's what a lot of us want to try to do, but unfortunately a lot of time, I've always just get drowned out by the loud voices -- very loud voices on the extremes.

MORGAN: Senator, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

PRYOR: Thank you. Great to be with you.

MORGAN: I'm going to show you some Breaking News. I believe that the House now has got the bill. So I would imagine be expecting a vote to commence very shortly. We'll be right with you obviously live on CNN All Night. I'll be back at midnight live after this show. So we'll see how things progress.

I want to bring in now Republican Congressman Jack Kingston in Georgia and California Congressman Xavier Becerra the Chairman of the House of Democratic Caucus. Welcome to you both gentlemen, smiling, looking happy to be next to each other.

REP. JACK KINGSTON (R) GEORGIA: Well, thank you.

MORGAN: ... to each other. A great ...


MORGAN: ... shining example of bipartisan joy. What is taking you guys so long collectively as two parties to bang the heads together and get some sense here? Let me start with you if I may Jack Kingston.

KINGSTON: Well, I think you have to go through this process, you know. As you know, we're not real wild about ObamaCare. So we tried our best to defund it then we tried to delay it, then we tried to put Congress under it and try to have individuals treated the same way as corporations are and we lost those battles. And we wanted to go the negotiation was the Senate and that's one where now we have some agreement that we will be a lot more negotiating but, you know, sometimes you have to go through these things. It's a part of democracy. It's not always clean. It's not always easy but I think that the good thing is that we do have a process that allows us to have these debate and yet we all know that we have to get back to work in the morning and try to come up with solutions on the budget and solutions on health care that are in the interest of America.

MORGHAN: Xavier Becerra, the number one rule of battle is you never start a fight you can't win. What is seemed to most observervices (ph) -- seasoned observers of Washington? Was that the battle that will struck to try and defund ObamaCare was from the very start fatally flaw because it was never going to succeed even ideologically with more moderate members on the Republican Party? So from a political point of view, that whole game plan was a disaster from day one, wasn't it?

REP. XAVIER BECERRA (D-CA) CHAIRMAN HOUSE DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS: Well, I think out of respect to my Republican colleagues I would just say that they've -- they got disconnected from the American people in this one. And I agree with Jack that democracies are sometimes messy, they're sometimes slow. And I hope what I hear Jack saying is that we will go through this again because in three months we're actually going to have re-up the budget again. And so, we should be prepared to cut and do this on a bipartisan basis.

This is the way we do it. You just can't always hit the ball out of the park in the bottom that I've been in two hours. And so, we can't continue to do this because the folks who suffer aren't so much members of Congress, it's the folks back home. There are a lot of Americans who were put out of work over two weeks. There were a lot of Americans who were very anxious about whether they'd be able to pay their mortgage tomorrow.

And so, hopefully what this teaches all of us is that we can work together and we can do it without forcing the American people to suffer the consequences of what happens here in Congress.

MORGAN: Now, wait, hearing that the House now has a bill that's coming down from the Senate. So, Jack Kingston how will you be voting on this?

KINGSTON: I'm going to vote no on it and I'll tell you why in the 17 previous shutdowns and in the five previous debts ceiling summits, there was always something that corrected the spending, reduce the spending in Washington. And this agreement is absence of that.

Now, we do hope that during this Conference Committee which was long overdue I want to say that for the beginning we should have been as the budget conference workings on this in April with the Senate. But, you know, moving over them is the sequestration which many members of Congress are worried about the sequestration. We have concerns because it cuts out the fat and the muscle blindly.

And ...

MORGAN: But just to clarify, Congressman. So -- Because I've got this wrong, you're going to vote no. If everybody on the Republican side voted no like you, then America would basically go into default on its debt.

KINGSTON: Well ...

MORGAN: I mean are you prepared personally to carry that burden?

KINGSTON: I haven't voted three times to keep the government open with the CR two weeks ago. I think I've shown that I do not want the government to shutdown nor do I want the government to default but ....

MORGAN: But you say that, but with respect to you, Congressman, if everybody else did what you're doing tonight, then that's exactly what would happen. And I just put it to you again, even Speaker Boehner has admitted that you have lost the battle, what is the point in voting no when the only direct results of that would be America going into a catastrophic economic default. I'm curious.

KINGSTON: Well, here is what you have. You have a national debt that 16 percent -- excuse me, that at $16 trillion is 100 percent of the GDP for every dollar we spend 42 cents is borrowed and we can't escape from that. And this is just a surmise compared to what lies ahead if China or some of our other lenders that you got to restructure to your debt ...

MORGAN: But they want ...

KINGSTON: ... and you lose control of it.

MORGAN: Congressman with the respect again, Chinese people who are watching this businessman and politicians they want people like you to vote no tonight. They'd love the House to throw this out that caused total economic meltdown in America, so that China emerges ever more dominant economically.

And so, again I say to you I don't understand why you would be prepared to risk all that over something that your own Speaker has already said has been a failure. I don't get it.

KINGSTON: Well, I think that there is maybe a debate that we have not really had about what actually happened at the stroke of midnight tonight. As you remember this was the Secretary of Treasury who said, we're going to go into default. We're going to reach the debt ceiling in April, no one in May, no one in July. Well, maybe August, and now suddenly it's the 17th of October.

I believe that is a soft deadline. But I'll also say the bigger parallel there is going broke in the first place and we were doing nothing in this agreement to change our course of runaway spending. And that's what I have a great concern about.

MORGAN: OK. Final words that have you, Becerra, just quickly if you don't mind.

BECERRA: Piers, first if we were to put ourselves in the shoes of the American people we wouldn't go through this exercise of wait till the last moment to do this.

American folks -- American families when they go through this stuff they have to make the top decisions. This is crazy. This is not the way you run the smallest business on mainstream. It should be the way that we run the largest economy in the world.

This budget, this short-term budget I don't like it, because it's actually the Republican number on the budget which cooks in the sequester, which we've been told by the congressional budget office that is going to cost us some 800,000 jobs. So, this slows down our economic growth. But you have to come this in common ground and you have to come up with some solutions.

And so, a lot of us as Democrats while we don't like this because we're going down to the Republican number on the budget temporarily, it's a way to keep us moving forward.


BECERRA: The budget and without defaulting on our payment of our current bill (ph).

MORGAN: Congressmen thank you both of joining me. I appreciate it very much. We'll bring you the vote when it happens. It's one down to the house from the senate and also move government reopen.

And now, what the Republican Party, that's on next.


MORGAN: Breaking News on the deal to raise the debt ceiling and reopening the government, the Senate approved it and now the House has the bill. We'll bring you all the votes since they stop coming in.

Meanwhile Wall Street is already celebrating today stocks gained 200 points. What does mean from big business and Americas economy.

Well, joining me now is Chief Business Correspondent Christine Romans, host of CNN's "Your Money" Business Correspondent Richard Quest host of CNN's "Quest Means Business" Jonathan Chait the Daily Columnist the New York Magazine and Larry Kudlow the host of Kudlow Report on CNBC, a wonderful array with great titles, I must say. And can I start with you Christine Romans.


MORGAN: Your reaction first of all to what is happening in particular SMP issuing the statements saying we believe that to date, the shutdown that shaved at least 0.6 percent of annualized fourth quarter 2013 GDP growth, or taken $24 billion out of the economy.

ROMANS: My reaction is that after three weeks and $24 billion Congress has now agreed to, drum roll please, do its job. $24 billion is really a lot of money. That two full years of the school lunch program for example, I mean that's the gap we have in airport improvements that, you know, really important infrastructure program that we need to do.

I mean just to put in perspective that's a lot of money. Now, you could recover that lost economic activity if we weren't in this perpetual budget fight mess and we're heading into a new countdown, don't put this countdown clock away because we're going to have to pull it out again in a few months. And so, if we didn't have all of this budget fighting maybe you could make up that $24 billion, but I'm not optimistic because again we're just at the very beginning here of Congress doing it's job.

MORGAN: Jonathan Chait says in New York Magazine column, it's probably the single biggest Republican mistake was it failing to understand the way its behavior will create unity in the opposing party which is a terrific point to make. Explain to me what you think now happens to Republican Party.

JONATHAN CHAIT, COLUMNIST: It's very hard to say this is a chaotic and dysfunctional party. And I don't see any evidence that they've really acknowledged the scale of the mistake. The sort of most extreme Republicans wanted to shutdown the government, but the less extreme Republicans actually wanted to threaten default.

So you're talking about two different levels of recklessness but they're both fairly reckless wings and simply the more reckless wing prevailed but who knows which one will prevail next time.

MORGAN: Richard Quest, we talked about this last night. The damage to the American credibility here in terms of the way that manages its politics and its economy has been pretty disastrous. Do you get the feeling that they understand just how bad?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: I think they somehow have got a vague idea of how bad because they've been told by every leader and every finance minister, but it hasn't computed if you like, and what the result of tonight, yes, around the world there will be a wave of gut relief that the worst has been avoided but they will also be a shudder that they're going to go through this again in a few months time. And that's going to be the big problem for America when it sits down, well, it's international partners in economic discussions that people going to say, "So, you're going to go through this again?"

MORGAN: Well, I mean Larry Kudlow is that also going to happen? We've kicked to can down the road and in January and in February exactly the same battle will be forward. I look at Ted Cruz, I see a man on a mission. I don't see a man who wants to sit down with John McCain and the other old guy Republicans and old be Mr. Nice guys. He wants to take charge and he wants to drive his agenda

LARRY KUDLOW, HOST THE KUDLOW REPORT: And he will continue to do so. No matter what's said about him.

MORGAN: Can he be successful?

KUDLOW: Well, I don't know, I mean he was not successful in some sense, I mean the defunding strategy which I happened to disagree did lead to the shutdown and did lead to a variety of problems, and did lead to a lot of device in this. Particularly, in the House of Representatives which you all are talking about.

I don't know if Cruz will stay with defunding he may go to a different tactic, but one thing he succeeded in doing, I give him credit for this, his opponents give him credit for this. He brought the issue of ObamaCare. Front and center and ObamaCare has had a as, you know, a disastrous, a disastrous beginning and it is very unpopular in all the polls and President is going to have to deal with that as he goes through this next round of budget talks. I think it will be very difficult to leave ObamaCare alone as it is essentially left alone in this evening's deal.

So I will give Cruz his due on that point, however, I also agree that we have lost their credibility. I don't buy that, but I don't know why 90 days is I what they left for the debt ceiling and the Continuing Resolution and actually that has supposed to put a budget together which is going to end the sequester and rose into this entitlement reform. These things take a long time. I was a budget guy in the Reagan years. I understand a little bit about this. Why just three months. Christine is right, we've had to go through the same exercise during the holidays.

MORGAN: Will take a short break. When we come back I want to ask you Christine, I want you to think about this. Is -- there is an argument, you just try and get rid of this whole debt ceiling situation all together. Remove it from the table, stop having this constant battle when it's used as a political pawn. So let's discuss it after the break.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The CR portion of this resolution is virtually clean. And is essentially ...


MORGAN: Back at Breaking News, you're looking live at the House of Representative they are packing session and beginning debate on the bills and raise the debt ceiling and we are in a government, if you pause (ph) it. The President has promised to sign it as soon as it hits his desk.

Well, back on me now, Christine Romans, Richard Quest, Jonathan Chait, and Larry Kudlow.

So Christine, I left you a little dilemma to ponder, is the whole line dear of a constant debt ceiling deadline anachronistic. Has this become used as Warren Buffet said it's kind of nuclear political pawn. And does that do the American economy to service?

ROMANS: You know, it's interesting, he called it asinine and also Bill Gross the founder of the world's largest funds just a couple hours ago said that we shouldn't even have a debt ceiling because the point is, is that Congress is so -- members of Congress are so upset about the debt ceiling and the amount of the debt, and they need to have a budget in the first place and priorities and spending plans in the first place that don't rack up the debt.

So instead of focusing and trying to use their political might to agree on how to run the country, they're just fighting about paying the bills, you know, the Treasury Department is just paying the bills. Congress's job, its job, is to write the laws to spend the money. They need to do that, not focus on the debt ceiling at the end, they focus on the spending priorities at the financial and they've not been able to do that since 2009.

KUDLOW: Actually, no, no, no, on the last point, I would agree. It's a conversant process but actually spending restraint has become an integral part of this process. Remember, the budget caps and the so-called sequester came from the debt ceiling debate of 2011, and it's actually sliced about $2 to $3 trillion, I mean spending is actually coming down in the USA. It's very interesting. I would suggest a spending rule rather than the debt ceiling.

MORGAN: Right.

KUDLOW: I would say, spending as a share of GDP should be thus and such and that would take your debt problem out of the way because you do have to finance your obligation.

MORGAN: Richard.

KUDLOW: But it has been effective in recent years.

QUEST: Doesn't matter which way you looking at it? Whether and how are you, you cut this at the end of the day, this is the most overused phrase at the moment. This is a can that is going to be kicked down the road. Now if you take this for battered old can. And look at how many times it's been kicked, Larry.

In fiscal year 2011, it was kicked eight times down the road. In fiscal year at '12, it was kick six times down the road, wherein this year, it's already twice down the road, but its worst than that. Look at when they start kicking this can and you really start to see the problem.

The first debt ceiling crisis is 2011, nasty and hard. US lost its AAA credit rating. Then you have the fiscal cliff, and then you have sequestered across the board. So we're back with our battered miserable.

MORGAN: Amazing. That can is still surviving, isn't it?

QUEST: It's just surviving, it's leaking, it's just surviving, and I'm sorry Larry at the end of the today, that's the problem.

MORGAN: Let me just go -- let me go quickly to Jonathan Chait, and what about the relationship is in corporate America and the Republican Party because the corporate America has written big checks for the Tea Party campaign. We've already seen Ted Cruz has raised quite significant tons of money throughout the last two weeks.

CHAIT: Right.

MORGAN: What is going to happen going forward? Where is Wall Street going to put his cash? Is it going to put it with the moderate believing that they have the best chance of victory electorally? Or is it going to go ...

CHAIT: Right.

MORGAN: ... with the bright, young, dynamic Ted Cruz on his rampage?

CHAIT: I don't think they like Ted Cruz, but this is a complicated relationship. Wall Street likes most of the policy agenda that the Republicans even the Tea Party Republicans like it. They agree with each other, they don't like regulating Wall Street, they don't like the Dodd-Frank regulation, they don't like regulating the environment very much, they don't want to tax rich people at the current levels, they want rich people to pay less taxes, they agree on most of the agenda.

Where they disagree is that Wall Street does not want the Republican Party to continually threaten worldwide economic calamity in order to get their way. They want Republicans to operate through normal legislative channels and stop destroying things.

So that's where the tension is. Republicans want the same things that Wall Street wants for the most part. They just don't like -- they just disagree on the methods.

MORGAN: Christine Romans, just in terms of the market obviously rallied again today. Hasn't that she (ph) been that precarious in the last two weeks? I guess, because there was a general belief that it was all ...


MORGAN: ... going to get result as Warren Buffet said, that it'll be idiotic right to the last moment and then do the deal.

What do you think will happen to the markets though between now and January and February when the can, Richard's can, comes back into play?

ROMANS: Richard's poor can is scaring the children at home. Listen, you know, there's two things here, either you have this debt brinksmanship is likely to continue I mean hopefully not but could continue into February. But at the same time that means the set is less likely to be pulling back and all that stimulus that's going into the market.

So when you talk to market participants, they're saying, "Look, we don't like how uncertain it is and we don't like the fact that there could be more fighting like this ahead." But it means, the fed is going to keep it, you know, put on the gas for now and so that's good news for the $85 billion ...


ROMANS: ... a month going into the market.

MORGAN: I have to cut you off, to Jonathan, to Larry, Christine and to Richard. Thank you all very much. I have to cut you off because I've got Ann Coulter sitting outside, spitting blood like a violent humor ready to come in and savage me. So let's wait for Anne Coulter. She's written a book called "Never trust a liberal over three-Especially a Republican". She got some pretty strong views about where the Republicans are going and I want to hear them live and unleashed after this break.



CRUZ: I want you to imagine Mr. President if Senate Republicans have stood together and simply supported House Republicans and the American people


MORGAN: Ted Cruz tonight just moments before the Senate votes and the fiscal stalemate under Cruz maybe dreaming of the united GOP. But when even Ann Coulter is turning on conservatives, you know the party is in trouble as her new book is "Never Trust a Liberal Over Three-Especially a Republican." And she joins me now, welcome back to you.

ANN COULTER, AUTHOR: Thank you. Good to be here.

MORGAN: I like having you on my show.

COULTER: Me too. And I'm not turning on conservatives.

MORGAN: What are you doing?

COULTER: I am the leading. I consider myself the conservative ayatollah.

MORGAN: Well, you're book is fascinating because actually you get right to the heart of the problem here which is what is the direction of a successful Republican Party one that could win elections ...


MORGAN: ... actually going to be.

COULTER: Yes, I want them to concentrate on winning. Passion is great, but in politics, all that matters is scoring. And I mean I really like what these guys have been doing. It's as if they had already read my instructions in the first few chapters.

MORGAN: Which guys?

COULTER: Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, the House Republicans. I think the last three weeks have been magnificent. I don't think they needed to keep going. I think it's fine but there are ...

MORGAN: Well, I hate to ...

COULTER: ... we don't have the votes.

MORGAN: The Republicans have had the worst approval ratings in history.

COULTER: I'm so glad you mentioned that.

MORGAN: That didn't show it as a success.

COULTER: This has been driving me absolutely crazy. These two polls that everyone is siding, it's pure propaganda. They aren't polls, the Gallup Poll, the NBC, Wall Street, Journal Poll and any polls will tell you this. One of them e-mailed me and he's a democratic pollster, he was just so annoyed by this. He said, "This is a poll of all adults. Half of all adults can't name the Vice President. These are irrelevant."

We want like we voters and an unlikely voter polls, it's kind of split, we would not have been talking about ObamaCare for the last three weeks. It is very clear that the Republican Party is the party that stands for revisiting ObamaCare. We are not just letting the Democrats ...

MORGAN: Yes, but (inaudible) let's take that one because I actually think that's obviously is going to be a very good strategy. ObamaCare is a divisive thing and clearly the way ...

COULTER: Hated. What?

MORGAN: ... hated by some liked by others.

COULTER: Majority.

MORGAN: Well, it's a ...

COULTER: That's a good branch marketing for the Republicans.

MORGAN: Let's get to the fact we agreed that ObamaCare is a target rich environment ...


MORGAN: ... for the Republicans. The way they've launched it, the way it sets up, the way it works as a system clearly is deeply flawed, right?


MORGAN: So whatever you're argument about the merits of it, it's not been working successfully. And that's why the Republicans are going to be targeting it. Ted Cruz will be center and front through all of that obviously.

But how does this help the Republicans win at the midterms or in 2016 if all it really does is create a party of various leaders?

COULTER: Well, two things. One is it really is this important branding that the Republican Party is not just allowing the Democrats to say, "We passed this bill, the two Houses voting on a different bill unconstitutionally. The President waving ...

MORGAN: It is a law.

COULTER: ... portions of it unconstitutionally.

MORGAN: It's a law.

COULTER: Lots of things are laws.

MORGAN: It's a major law.

COULTER: That never stops the liberals as I write in tonight's column if you didn't read because you weren't at your book party. It's an excellent (inaudible).

MORGAN: We're coming to my excellent vote in a moment.

COULTER: OK. So for one thing, what usually happens is no matter how something gets through. I mean you won't remember this but Jimmy Carter creates the Department of Education as a soft (ph) of the teacher's unions. We're always raking campaigns on ending the Department of Education. Do we still have the Department of Education? Yes, we do.

Republicans generally just say, "Oh well, we lost that let's move on." This makes it very clear, Republicans are not just moving on, there's only so much they can do. And the second it does is make the points at the beginning of my book here, we have to win elections.

MORGAN: Right.

COULTER: How does (inaudible) ...


COULTER: ... Christine O'Donnell look now?

MORGAN: Now, let's go to Ted Cruz, he's fascinating. I had Alan Dershowitz on last night who actually taught him at Harvard.


MORGAN: And I was amazed. He said that Ted Cruz, one of the brightest people he's ever taught also one of the best debaters, and one of the people that really argued really successfully. And you can see that. He's a dynamic guy ... COULTER: Yes.

MORGAN: ... and he's smart and he's fresh and all those things. But can he actually bring enough of his own party with him to be a real force leading the party, and if he can't, where are you going to go? Is it someone like Eric Cantor, I mean ...


MORGAN: ... will he be the new Speaker.


MORGAN: The Speaker saying to stay, you know, is it a Chris Christie figure? Where does the party find a winner?

COULTER: Well, we'll see how things shake out. All I care about if you're taking about the presidential candidates is it going to be a senator or governor, if we only allow those in our debates. We see how they do in the debates and see what they say. What's wonderful about Michael Lee and Ted Cruz, and this is the third thing I think we've got now out of the last three weeks, is they are probably the smartest United States senators. Are there any other senators included for the Supreme Court? They're unbelievably articulate, they're unbelievably bright. They haven't been messing or back fighting, they're young and attractive, and yes, they're a good face for my party.

MORGAN: There is a new face heading potentially to the US Senate, tonight I can reveal Breaking News in New Jersey in the special US Senate election. CNN is projecting tonight that New York made Cory Booker is the winner defeating Republican candidate Steve Lonegan. Booker, the Democratic nominee will now be taking his place in the US Senate. He's a rising star of course for the Democrats and tonight, a key victory for him. Once again, CNN (inaudible) Cory Booker is the winner in the New Jersey special US Senate election. You must be thrilled Ann Coulter.

COULTER: Well, I can't say I'm surprised. Everyone sort of knew it was going to be Booker.

MORGAN: Did you like Cory Booker as an operative (ph), as a politician? I mean, I like the way he...

COULTER: It's funny you mentioned that. At the end of my last book "Mugged", I cited him as my favorite Democrat in the country. We'll see how he does. I mean, the problem is no matter how good they are in their states or cities, once they get to the Senate, then they're under the control of Chuck Schumer. So I have feeling my admiration for him will go down.

MORGAN: But it sounds pretty sinister (ph) what happens under the control of Chuck Schumer?

COULTER: Or worst Harry Reid.

MORGAN: You think you're law are any better?

COULTER: Yes. I just said Cruz and Mike Lee, they're magnificent.

MORGAN. Now, stay with me. When we come back, the President stands his ground. Did Republicans underestimate his willingness to wipe them out? Sure, and we'd agree with that.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Scott, Georgia. The gentleman from Georgia is recognized for one minute.


MORGAN: Back with the Breaking News and the deal to reopen the government and raise the debt ceiling. The House is now debating the bill. We'll bring you the votes when they come in. I'm back now with the always outspoken Ann Coulter.

So, let's talk about -- a bit more about Ted Cruz and the way forward here because you got the midterms coming out. What do you think he's strategy will be? I mean, is he going to be a simple as come Monday morning, right, ObamaCare off we go to real because now we've got the other stuff out the way.

COULTER: I think the important part of the strategy is to teach Republicans we need during elections. I go through some of them at the beginning of my book. I mentioned one just now. Was that a great idea to run Christine O'Donnell against Mike Castle? OK, fine. He's a moderate Republican it's Delaware. Delaware hasn't voted for a Democrat for president in 18 years. Gosh, I wish we have a moderate Republican there now. There was a stolen election in Minnesota. We have the three guys mauling about abortion and rape. We had campaign consultants running candidates who could never win in Connecticut and West Virginia because they once align their pockets.

MORGAN: But it's just the party be moving in a more Tea Party conservative or is that just very -- handed this in a general election because the country, if you look at the polls on things like gay marriage and so on, they're just not with the republicans on that candidate whether you'd love them to be or not.

COULTER: Well, first of all, I dispute that. About 36 states have voted. The people voting on gay marriage and they rejected it. 36 states, including Oregon, including California.

MORGAN: And yet a significant majority of all the polls again, may I say Americans are now in favor of it.

COULTER: That's probably a poll of all adults again.

MORGAN: Well, you can't criticize all the polls. Some of them have the (inaudible) COULTER: Well, but I can when there have been 36 state votes. I think we know what Americans think on that one. There may be some issues where you can tell me a majority ...

MORGAN: My point though is -- my sense is that younger people in particular who -- President Obama who's pretty good at galvanizing elections. He runs very good elections with young people.

COULTER: I think that the Obama magic goes away if with any of the other Democratic candidates.

MORGAN: You do?

COULTER: I think the only ...

MORGAN: Even Hillary Clinton?

COULTER: ... only people fainting at her rallies are going to be chubby gals from now.

MORGAN: Do you think she will be the Democrat nominee?]

COULTER: I kind of hope so. I don't think she's that formidable. I think she -- it will be a rerun of -- sorry, this is a New York reference, but another Christine Quinn. We were told inevitable, inevitable she's an ex-mayor. Next mayor, people came in and voted. No, I don't think so.

MORGAN: Who would you most fear on the Democrat side?

COULTER: Obama. Once you take him out, I think as long as we don't run Todd Akin we're doing just fine, and as ...

MORGAN: Who would you like to see running as a Republican nominee? Who's the most electable right now?

COULTER: Well, that remains to be seen. But please Republicans no more inspirational leaders, no more congressman, no more businessman ...

MORGAN: What about Chris Christie? He's inspirational, very popular.


MORGAN: Most popular governor in the country.

COULTER: I won't forgive him for amnesty but, yeah, he of course ...

MORGAN: (inaudible) election.

COULTER: If he were the Republican candidate, OK.

MORGAN: Because your book makes it very clear. Look, we can have all the rhetoric and passion we like, but I want to find somebody who can win an election for Republicans.

COULTER: Right, but you're thinking that means run more of a liberal. That is absolutely not my ...

MORGAN: No. I'm just -- I don't know. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm saying...


MORGAN: ... who do you think can exercise your desire to have a winner?

COULTER: I'm not sure I want to see them in debates. I mean, we have a bunch of governors and a bunch of senators including Mike Lee and Ted Cruz, love them. Let's see them in debates, we'll see how it shakes out. But, on your points on more Tea Party, less party, Tea Party, it varies from state to state.

The Democrats have, you know, this incredibly conservative Democrats that you never hear about, you know, Mark Pryor you just had him on, from Arkansas, Mary Landrieu in Louisiana. Where is (inaudible)? Are they down harassing -- he is conservative Democrats? No, they know Bob Casey in Pennsylvania, they know, this is the best we're going to get in this states.

Why our Tea Partiers, and it's not Tea Partiers it's dilatons (ph) is what it is, why are they going and demanding purity from Republicans in a state that is a liberal state? Its madness, it's not thinking about winning election.

MORGAN: You can quiver (ph) all the state by state but in the end the Republicans have to show unity when they find a general election and, you know, last time basically had again the division with the Tea Party and the motors and so on, you can see exactly the same bubble beginning to boil. I think that you got a male Sarah Palin, I mean I think a much more formidable version Sarah Palin and Ted Cruz.

COULTER: Ted Cruz?

MORGAN: Yes. Isn't he the male Sarah Palin, isn't he the new king of the Tea Party where she was once queen.

COULTER: I don't see the analogy but I love them.

MORGAN: Yes, but my point is I mean, do you think that he could be more electable to a wider cross section just to win the nomination and mind anything else and Republicans?

COULTER: Well, see it's very possible. Look there will be arguments in a party of ideas, that is one thing as I point out in this book Democrats have the advantage, all they want is power, they spend their lives figuring out how do we get elected so we can run other people's lives. Conservatives and Republicans ...

MORGAN: And Republicans don't to do that? COULTER: No, look at how we've been doing in elections.


COULTER: We lose all tossed up elections.

MORGAN: Republicans don't want power and don't want to tell us how to run our lives.

COULTER: They want to be pure.

MORGAN: On that bomb shell. Let's take another break while I come down and have a cup of coffee. We'll be back with more of Ann Coulter and my rival book that's going to be taking on hers. You the jury America.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... manufacture its prices and start working to find solutions so that we never again see a day when the government ...




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The journal if ordered this is a 15-minute vote.


MORGAN: More on Breaking News tonight, the House has stopped debating, it's about to vote on the big deal if it passes President Obama promising to sign it immediately. And back with Ann Coulter author of the new, "Never Trust a Liberal Over Three Especially Republicans".

So, we've got book wars this week has stored because I can reveal to my view this is the first time I have a book out, there it is "Shooting Straight, Guns, Gays, God and George Clooney" it's a journal, diaries with my time at CNN with the focus on the gun campaigning that I've done. And you have a book out here and it -- some similarities here because there's a very fetching picture of you on the cover equally fetching picture of me on the cover on mine, obviously. So, people come and get an aesthetic choice. In terms of the content mine is 324 pages, yours is 377. So, a little bit more ...

COULTER: Shockingly long for one of mine and you know why?


COULTER: Because it's all -- because there's no chapter more than 10 pages, a lot of it is great as tips of mine from the last 10 years.

MORGAN: Greatest tips.

COULTER: Yes, it's in part a column book.

MORGAN: If you would like you also talk about guns, gays, God, and George Clooney?


MORGAN: So, we have that in common.

COULTER: Yes, how about that? Because mine covers everything under the sun every chapter on crime, Christianity, I talked about a man in Knox (ph) and ...

MORGAN: Do you know I really enjoyed your book. And let me tell you why I was struck by the end.

COULTER: Because it's fun, right?

MORGAN: I think its fun. I'd be -- I agree with some of it which surprises me.

COULTER: You do?

MORGAN: Disagree with most of it, but agree with some of it. But why ...

COULTER: Can we get to what you agree with?

MORGAN: Not really, no, now that'd be too praise worthy. But tell me this, you actually write them yourself? Would you have a team move people help it?

COULTER: I not only write them, I research them myself which is why I don't have a TV or radio show. I like doing the research, I mean I was a lawyer and I love doing research and you find stuff when you're doing your own research. Most of my books are more historical on popularizing history and you find things that if you hired someone to do the research for you they wouldn't notice the pattern, they wouldn't see it. So, yes. So, I'm one of the -- few others who write and research ...

MORGAN: Do you like being so polarizing?

COULTER: No, I think everyone should agree with me, duh. So, I would like to get to what you agree with me on.

MORGAN: But on the basis that we don't tally agree with you do you like being polarized? Do you enjoy being so divisive a character? And when people turn on their TV and they see Ann Coulter there half of them are cheering and half are seething with fury.

COULTER: No, I really think I've just gave you my best answer. I really think they should all agree with me and if they read this book I think like you they'd say, "Oh my gosh I do agree with her."

MORGAN: No, I ...

COULTER: Liberals have been bad now.

MORGAN: ... you have deliberately twisted what I said. I said I agreed with some of it, but disagree with most of it, immediately your sinister brain confused of that to say I agreed with everything you'd written. You see what you do ...

COULTER: Lots of it I think.

MORGAN: You had nine best-selling books from the New York Times list.

COULTER: And I'm hoping after tonight we got number 10 here.

MORGAN: Yes, what do you hope to achieve with the book?

COULTER: Well, my big goal was getting on this show.

MORGAN: Of course, goal achieved.


MORGAN: You know, I've sort of, you know, what I feel why do you come back at midnight?

COULTER: You know what we're going to try to; I was up at 7 a.m. to be on radio ...

MORGAN: Why do you just give me a straight answer? So, would you come back ...

COULTER: No, if I am still awake...

MORGAN: ... just say yes, Piers I'll see you at midnight.

COULTER: If I am still awake I will be ...

MORGAN: Yes, Piers I'll see you at midnight.

COULTER: ... but you have to have me on the first half hour.

MORGAN: Yes, agreed, deal. See you at midnight. That's all for now the House is now voting on the deal to raise the debt ceiling and reopen the government. We'll be back live at midnight. That's now AC 360 Later also live starts right now with Anderson Cooper.