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Piers Morgan Live

Cyber Bullying; Interview With Ann Coulter; Interview with Debra Messing, Eric McCormack

Aired October 18, 2013 - 21:00   ET


PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. Tonight, law and disorder. The crime story shocking America. Two Florida girls drive a 12-year-old to suicide. Should their parents be held responsible?


TRICIA NORMAN, MOTHER OF GIRL WHO COMMITTED SUICIDE: I remember telling her, you know, Becka, don't listen to them, you're beautiful, they are just jealous of you. And she would say, you're my mom, you have to say that.


MORGAN: It's the bullying tragedy everyone is talking about. The sheriff at the center of it joins me.

Plus, politics after the shutdown. Is Cruz now in charge and will Obamacare ever work? I'll talk about it all with Gloria Allred, Alan Dershowitz, and Lanny Davis.

Also, divided they stand. The Republican Party retreats. But what's next? The always controversial Ann Coulter takes on the GOP and Hillary Clinton's chances in 2016.


ANN COULTER, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Only people fainting at her at her rallies are going to be chubby (inaudible) from NOW.


MORGAN: And the two people Joe Biden said did more to educate the public on a key issue than anybody else. Those two TV stars join me.

To begin with our big story tonight, the shocking story out of Florida where a 12 year-old Rebecca Sedwick was driven to suicide for a tremendous bullying, a 12 and 14 year-old girl are under arrest charged with felony and criminal stalking. After Rebecca Sedwick jumped to her death last month, police say one of the accused girls wrote on Facebook, "Yes. I bullied Rebecca and she killed her self but IDGAF." Short for "I don't give a expletive."

That taunting Facebook message led Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd to arrest the two girls and joins me now, along with CNN criminal defense attorney Mark O'Mara. Welcome to both of you. Sheriff let me start with you. This is a pretty awful case, also groundbreaking case. Why -- let's start first with the decision to deal with the two girls and then the wider issue of parental responsibility. Give me your view in terms of both of those parts of the story.

GRADY JUDD, SHERIFF POLK COUNTY, FLORIDA: Well, Piers, this went further than bullying. This was stalking and it occurred over about a 10-month period. Interventions were tried by the school and by the victim's mom to know a bail. At that point, law enforcement had to step in. And that's why we made felony criminal charges because if this can't be taken care of at home, certainly, the system has an answer.

MORGAN: Now, obviously, we know that lots of kids around this age particularly with the advent of social media with Facebook, and Twitter, and so on, they do tend to be pretty unpleasant to each other. Where does it move from that to the severity of what has happened here, in other words where there's a genuine risk that somebody may take their life?

JUDD: Well, they were saying stuff like, "Go kill yourself. Go drink bleach and die." And this was just what was online. The 14 year-old victim actually over this period of 10 months calls the 12 year-old suspects to fight our victim Rebecca. So it was physical taunting. It was -- they terrorized her, they intimidated her and it was a long standing feud if you will that wouldn't stop. So as a result, we had to do something because obviously our suspect who was 14 and our victim who was 12 were constantly at each other but most importantly our victim was beaten down. She just wanted this to stop.

And on the very last day of her life, she texted a friend of hers and said, "I can't take it anymore. I'm jumping. I'm going to kill myself." He didn't tell anyone. That's exactly what she did.

MORGAN: She did. She climbed a tower, an abandoned concrete plant and led to her death. She had already cut her wrist in the previous failed suicide attempt. An absolutely appalling story. Let me turn to you Mark O'Mara about the issue of parental responsibility and law. Where does it lie at the moment and where do you think it should be?

MARK O'MARA CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Unfortunately, there's not a lot of responsibility put on parent's shoulders to the way their kids act online. We know that if a child gets a hold of parent's gun, parents are responsible, a car, they could be responsible, parents are responsible getting these kids to school on time. The Internet is brand new -- wonderful tool, could be used for a lot of good but also be cause it is so open, it could be used to some bad. And the kids are not old enough to understand. They've a grown up in a video age where you just push a reset button, you start over again. Parents have to be more diligent and vigilant in looking at what their kids do because we have to look to (ph) response of people and parents to make sure that they teach the lessons that obviously were not taught to these two girls.

MORGAN: We have a policy saying not to identify use but in this case, (inaudible) made public by law enforcement authorities (inaudible) extensive attention in their hometown media (ph). I want to play a clip here from the parents of the 14 year old girl. They go by the names of Jose and Vivian. Let's watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter is not that type of girl to do something like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll grab the computer and I took it to my room because that's what we've been doing. We take the computer to our room. And the other time that she could have used to send this message was my cellphone. And my cellphone is always with me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I always check her Facebook. I know her password, you know. I'll -- she never wants, you know, bully this girl online.


MORGAN: Sheriff Judd, I mean, it seems highly impossible to put it mildly that the parents are telling the truth here. I mean, it would seem pretty clear with the evidence we've all seen that that girl did indeed online bullied this poor girl Rebecca.

Let me put this to you, which is a wider issue. I've got four children, three sons, 20, 16, and 13. Once (ph) I can see what they put on say Twitter or I can see Facebook posts perhaps I can't control what they're sending in private messages because I would have no knowledge of that without access to their computers or their cellphones. How do you regulate as a parent going forward you think in light of this awful story? How do you regulate what you can't get access to?

JUDD: Well, Piers, you can get access to it. If that's your child and your home, then you need to take control of that child. I hear people say, "Oh, my child needs privacy." No. Your child doesn't need privacy when they're juvenile. They absolutely don't. And that was the problem. And then Vivian says, "Oh, they would never do that. I monitor their Facebook."

When we arrested Vivian this afternoon for a different case where she was beating on children who she had in here custody, who we can't identify by law. So while she's telling the national media that that would never happen, we have a video clip that was posted by one of her daughters about a beating that occurred. And obviously, she didn't monitor that very well because that resulted in her arrest this afternoon.

MORGAN: I want to put another clip to you, Mark, and then ask you how (inaudible). This is where Jose and Vivian talked about their responsibility as parents.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think it's fair for me and my husband to be, you know, punished for something that they're saying that my daughter did. And my daughter's being punished for something that she didn't do.


MORGAN: Mark, obviously the -- you know, justice will take its course here in relation to the girl and what she actually did. The evidence seems pretty clear that she was bullying this girl Rebecca. We will see that all in the end is what happens in court and there's a conviction. But in terms of the parent's attitude there -- I mean, it's difficult. You know, I don't want to be massively fair to them because, you know, I feel much more I guess empathetic to the family of this poor girl who killed herself. At the same time, having had, you know, three teenage kids, how far can you really say parents have to be legally responsible to every word they may post on social media?

O'MARA: I don't think they can be for every word. But if a parent acts in a way that in my opinion is grossly negligent, if law enforcement (ph). And I want to congratulate Sheriff Judd for everything you do in this case and the dedication because it really need (ph) to brought to light. But if a parent doesn't act in a way which is responsible, if they act in a way which is grossly negligent, they ignore a child's Internet presence, to me that's just like ignoring if the child's carrying around a gun or have the keys to the car. We have to put the responsibility where it lies on the parents. So my suggestion in law that I'm coming up with says, "If it can be proven in the court of law that a parent acted in a grossly negligent way not being properly supervised over the child and the child commits an act of danger or harm to another, then the parent should be responsible."

I would admit, it's going to be a difficult to draft (ph) and to enforce but Sheriffs like Sheriff Judd have to have this type of tool to go to a parent and say you're going to be responsible. That's the punitive side. The positive side is we're also coming up with some very positive ways to allow parents, to educate parents how to properly supervise their children online. It is not impossible. It just takes some effort by the parents.

MORGAN: I mean, Sheriff, I guess the obvious reaction I would have to that is all sounds great and I am totally in favor what Mark is trying to achieve. At the same time, I mean, if I knew one of my kids had an access to a car and I tell you (ph) under the age to drive one, if the have access to a firearm, whatever it may be, then I could see that you just go and take away that object from them. And it's quite clear cut. But what do you do about laptops and cellphones? I mean, do you expect parents who have concerns to confiscate those? How far do you take it?

JUDD: Piers, I absolutely do. And I think Mark's on the right path here. We're not talking about a singular event. We understand. All of us who have raised teenagers understand that they do silly things that they shouldn't from time to time. But in this event, this went on for a period of 10 months. So at what point do parents have criminal capability? They already had moral responsibility. But in the home, the parent is the first defense for protecting their children from being bullied or doing the bullying. And parents have that obligation. Theirs is no fourth amendment right preventing a parent from searching their electronic device and parent should. And after all, if the children don't want to go along with that program, take the device away from him. It's more important to be a good parent. They shouldn't be their good friend, but they need to be a great parent.

MORGAN: And let's just end nothing by reminding everybody that in the end the girl accused to be the main tormentor here, posted this comment. Which it said, "Yes, I bullied Rebecca and she killed herself but IDGAF." Which means I don't give a expletive.

And I think that says it all really. Because if that was one of my kids, I would (inaudible) marshal straight to the nearest police station and let justice take its course. And the fact that the families don't see that responsibility or that need to take the responsibility is ultimately to meet negligence. Mark O'Mara and Sheriff Judd thank you very, very much indeed.

O'MARA: Thank you, Piers.

MORGAN: Coming next, Gloria Allred, Alan Dershowitz, and Lanny Davis take on the bullying case. Should the parents be blamed? That and other big crime stories and a bit of politics coming next.



TRICIA NORMAN, REBECCA SEDWICK'S MOTHER: She should be here. She should be here to see justice getting served. I really wish that people would have listened to her a long time ago and had really looked into this that was going on when we were reporting it. I really believe that Becca stopped telling me about it because she seeing how much I was trying to get something done and nothing was getting done.


MORGAN: Rebecca Sedwick's mother talking about her daughter's suicide. In the (inaudible) time (ph) of bullying drove the 12 year old to jump to her death. Two girls accused of harassing Rebecca and now facing felony charges.

Let's get to tonight's law and this order would be now legal crisis manager Lanny Davis author of Crisis Tales: Five rules of coping with crisis, and business, politics and life. Civil Right attorney Gloria Allred, and Alan Dershowitz author of "Taking the Stand, My life in the law". Welcome to all of you.

Gloria Allred said very emotive issue this one, isn't it? I mean, your heart just breaks for the family and for this poor girl who's done and (ph) need to take her life. At the same time, how should the law deal with this going forward? Because kids will be kids not to this disgusting extent but they will be up to various forms of bullying online. What should the law do about it?

GLORIA ALLRED, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, Piers, there's one thing that's very much missing from this conversation and that is a whole lot more support for the victim of the bullying or the stalking or both. And that means that the victims need to be able to go to someone who has experience in helping victims of bullying and stalking, to counsel them, to give them adequate support, to help them to cope with this, and to make sure that they are there throughout this ordeal that the victims are suffering so that they know they are not going through this alone.

MORGAN: Alan Dershowitz, what do you think that law should do? I mean it's a very complicated area clearly because as Mark O'Mara said (inaudible) car or a gun or something like that, it's fairly obvious what you should be doing but we are dealing with online bullying. What is the best sensible way to frame a law that can deal with it?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR, TAKING THE STAND, MY LIFE IN THE LAW: Well, it's very hard because you have to balance on the one hand freedom of speech and freedom of expression against the very understandable needs of the victim.

Look, I had an experience like this. My son, when he was 10 years old had a serious surgery and he was bullied by his classmates after that. And the parents of the some of the kids encouraged the bullying and they really, really scapegoated him and we had to fight back and it was very, very difficult. People say, "Look, kids will be kids." Other people say, "Look, when somebody commits suicide, there must have been other underlying causes." My son was able to fight back. He had a strong family support. He had a strong support by his teachers and his classmates.

But making a law, a criminal law, in a blanket way holding parents responsible would be a mistake. Prohibiting all kinds of statements on the Internet would be a mistake. We need to strike an appropriate balance. It's not easy. You mentioned my book "Taking the Stand", I tell the story of my son and the bullying and how heroically he fought back against the bullying when he was 10 years old. But not everybody has the resources to do that.

MORGAN: I mean, Lanny Davis, what has changed irrevocably is technology. And it doesn't just apply to online bullying but it applies to online stalking, online threats, all sort of new menaces can be done in the cloak or anonymity and secrecy without anybody else knowing. Computer to computer, phone to phone we see these cases all the time now. What do you think should be done? What is your thinking on all this from your crisis point of view?

LANNY DAVIS, AUTHOR, CRISIS TALES: Well, first of all I have a 15 year old and an eight year old. My eight year old was just recently experienced something that turned out was resolved between me and this young boy's father who took a very strong stand with his son and we ended up solving it directly between the two boys. And the father's intervention was the most helpful way of these parents that I just saw in denial rather than being very, very sympathetic to the victim and angry with their daughter that would post, "I don't give a ... " whatever the word was.

I think there's nothing that the law can really do that I can see that can criminalize the behavior of children and impute it to parents. I agree with Alan, that's a very tough legal standard. Not all things can be solved by the law but perhaps transparency in letting other people know about these parents who are reckless and are not taking a stand in doing something about their children who are bullies, maybe the transparency and publicity about those parents will be one way to deter that type of behavior.

ALLRED: And, Piers, I'd like to ...

MORGAN: So there's this other case ...

ALLRED: ... also say that ...

MORGAN: I'm sorry, Gloria, yes.

ALLRED: Yes, that I'd like schools to take more responsibility with this so that if there's a designated counselor in school and every student is made aware of the counselor that they can go to if that is when they are bullied and also if it's reported the law enforcement. If law enforcement will provide a counselor who can victims support to that victim of a crime or a potential crime then at least the victims know where they can go if they can't go to their own parents or don't feel comfortable in talking with their own parents, they've got somebody they can report to an experienced person who can be there to help them through it.

MORGAN: Final word to you, Alan, which really will T-up (ph) the next segment. You have to leave on this. I want to ask you about this before (inaudible) get into it. A segue into the political shutdown the last two weeks and (inaudible) Ted Cruz. Your comments to me as part of big (ph) a debate when you said to me that (inaudible) one of the brightest students you've ever had and a brilliant debater. His reaction today (ph), we'll play this clip after the break.

Given the choice between being reviled in Washington D.C. and appreciated in Texas or reviled in Texas and appreciated in Washington, I would take the former 100 out of 100 times. Is that your man from Harvard?

DERSHOWITZ: Yes, and that's exactly what I said on your show the other night. Don't try to discourage him by telling him that he's hurting the Republican Party. He cares about his constituents. He cares about the ideological people who support him. He thinks of himself as a man of principle and he is a man of principle. And if you're going to defeat him in argument, you have to defeat him on principle grounds. That's why I challenged him to debate him on your show as to whether what he was doing is consistent with the values of the constitution.

I do not think that what he did was consistent with the values of the constitution. Let him defend himself in the marketplace of ideas.

MORGAN: You know what I'd love to do I'd love to get Senator Cruz and Alan Dershowitz, his own mentor from Harvard sitting on this show for and hour. Wouldn't that be incredible to hear? I'm going to make that happen.


DERSHOWITZ: Can I pay (ph) for that?

MORGAN: I'm going to make that happen if it kills me. Alan Dershowitz, you have to go. Thank you very much indeed for joining me.

DERSHOWITZ: Thank you.

MORGAN: After the break, Gloria and Lanny will stay. We'll talk more about Senator Cruz, a fascinating guy in many ways. Is he potentially a man who could make a run for presidency? We'll discuss that next.



TED CRUZ, SENATOR: Given the choice between being reviled in Washington D.C. and appreciated in Texas or reviled in Texas and appreciated in Washington, I would take the former 100 out of 100 times.


MORGAN: Senator Ted Cruz, ABC News, the man many blamed for shutting down the government. But, is the GOP's best chance in 2016? (Inaudible) Lanny Davis and Gloria Allred.

Lanny Davis, you've been around the Washington block (ph) awhile. What do you make of Senator Ted Cruz? It's too easy to dismiss him as to some renegade. He's obviously smarter than that. What do you make of him?

DAVIS: First of all, beware of people who are dismissing him and beware of people who impugn his motives and I grant him sincerity and I'm a great believer in assuming somebody is sincere and just sincerely disagreeing with his views.

But if democrats are underestimating this guy -- I remember my dad, may his soul rest and peace, underestimating a movie actor from the California who was so far the extreme right (ph) that he was eluding for him to get the nomination, his name of course is Ronald Reagan. This guy has solidified the base of the Republican Party that nominates candidates and he's extremely right and I have some respect for him even though I completely 100 percent disagree with him that democrats make a mistake demonizing (ph) him.

MORGAN: Gloria Allred, what do you make of him as a man -- as a politician? When you look at this guy, he's come up of nowhere seemingly. Are you impressed by what you see in here just in terms of the way he conducts (ph) himself?

ALLRED: Well, I think he's very bright but unless the GOP is on some kind of suicide mission where they would like to just go off in flames in the next election, I would say that they're not going to nominate him for president that he does obviously represent a lot of people in the Tea Party and some people in Texas who are also very conservative.

But I don't see him getting the nomination. I think, there's a lot of (inaudible) were among the GOP right now because he led them down a path of where they really taking a big hit in the polls and I think there's going to be a long memory of that when it comes to the nomination for President of the United States next time.

So, you know, he can posture, he can ponder, and he's very bright and he's very, you know, telegenic, and interesting. But that doesn't mean that he is going to be the nominee next time.

MORGAN: I mean, Lanny Davis, the interesting thing I think goes forward would be ObamaCare and the debate about it. Because frankly, if the republicans have not tried to defund it but it focus more on ignoring, shutting down the government and going after the President on ObamaCare, the moment it started, because it (ph) started to so badly, they may have been in a very strong position now because ObamaCare may have many good points to it.

I've certainly feel it does and bring 11 million people into the health cover (ph) (inaudible). But in terms of the way the machinery works, the system itself, it's been pretty (inaudible) disaster.

DAVIS: Well, it's pretty early to declare ObamaCare failure because the software and the brand new system of websites that is supposed to cope with 27 million of people signing up is going to have its problems. I do think there has been some level of delay that is hurting the ObamaCare credibility.

I would say that Senator Cruz, Gloria with all due respect, is going to be tougher than I certainly agree with your views of him but I respect that he sincerely believes ObamaCare is bad policy. And the policy debate in ObamaCare, you may recall in 2010, we lost the congress because we lose that debate.

And I do want the President to be much clearer in his message talking about crisis management to take the lead in the deficit and reducing the deficit, the way President Clinton did and to explain the ObamaCare system is a private enterprise system. It's not socialism. It's all private insurance companies operating on an internet website with a marketplace called conservative market forces.

The President isn't a good messenger when it comes to his own program. He has allowed Ted Cruz and others to declare it a hopeless disaster when it's really in the early days and I hope we get through these early days.

MORGAN: Gloria are you ...

ALLRED: I think the President is not going to be the messenger next time. I mean, hopefully, I'll be a supporter of whoever is going to be the democratic nominee. It's no secret that I would like that to be Hillary Rodham Clinton, having said that, it's a long time really until the next election. And, I think the president's come out OK, despite the fact the government got shut down, I don't think most people are blaming him for that. And, as more and more people do get insured as more people appreciate the fact that they are now insured even though they had a preexisting condition, I think that Affordable Healthcare or the ObamaCare program is going to be more and more popular.

MORGAN: And that may all be true, Gloria, but it goes as everyone knows Lanny you specialized in crisis, when you loan something, if you have (inaudible) problems as one thing, if you're still seating here in a months time and the system cannot cope and you simply just not working, then Senator Cruz is going to have absolutely field (ph) day, isn't it (inaudible).

And he calls that he has set up in his name in fact over the last two weeks or in my view recklessly shutting down the government. But in terms of him and his standing with the more (ph) right wing members of Republican Party, you're going to say he could be looking very pretty, you know, in month's time if ObamaCare still isn't working properly.

DAVIS: I agree there are going to be difficulties and he'll look better and better if those difficulties are unsolved. But I also agree with Gloria on two things. First of all, sooner or later it's going to done (ph) on the American people that they go bed at night never have to worry about not having health insurance if they lose their job or develop a preexisting condition that makes them uninsurable. And that's going to be more and more popular just as Social Security had a hard time getting off the ground, if you look at the history of the early days of Social Security. But I also agree with Gloria that the person is going to carry the day as our next president to make sure that this National Healthcare System is a success as my friend Hillary Clinton. So, we share that, Gloria.

ALLRED: And they're going to be many other issues other than healthcare in the next election. And all ...

MORGAN: Well, there are.

ALLRED: ...Ted Cruz against Hillary Rodham Clinton on international affairs any day.

MORGAN: Gloria, let me ask you a final question about Secretary Sebelius. Should she still be in her job given the pretty upholding breakdown of the ObamaCare system, if she's on her watch?

ALLRED: I think we need to correct the system and make it easier for people to have access, but no. Just removing someone from their job doesn't solve the problem. I just think that the republicans are looking for a win and some vindictiveness because they just have lost on the government shutdown. But I don't think taking Sebelius's job is the way to go.

MORGAN: Gloria Allred, Lanny Davis thank you both very much to you.

DAVIS: Thank you Piers.

MORGAN: Coming next, my interview with Ann Coulter, which democrat she (inaudible) most and what she think is really wrong with the GOP.


MORGAN: Washington is back on business again with the political fallout while (ph) the shutdown still ongoing. And on Wednesday night its (inaudible) deal Ann Coulter joining me talk about what's right and what's wrong with both parties as always. She didn't hold back toward his latest (ph) book is "Never Trust a Liberal Over 3, especially a Republican".

So let's talk about a bit more about Ted Cruz and the way forward here, because you got the midterms coming up. What do you think his strategy would be? I mean, is it going to be a simply as come Monday morning, right ObamaCare off we go to real because now we've got the other stuff out the way.

ANN COULTER, AUTHOR: I think the important part of the strategy is to teach republicans we need to win elections. I go through some of them at the beginning of my book. I mention one just now. Without a great idea to run Christine O'Donnell against Mike Castle, OK fine. He's a moderate republican. It's Delaware. Delaware hasn't a voter for a democrat for president in 18 years.

Gosh, I wish we had a moderate republican there now. There was a stolen election in Minnesota. We have the three guys mauling about abortion and rape. We have campaign consultants running candidates who could never win in Connecticut and West Virginia, because they once align their pockets.

MORGAN: But it's a party be moving, you know, more Tea Party conservative or is that this very handed this in a general election, because the country if you look at the polls on things like gay marriage and so on, they're just not with the republicans on that candidate, whether you love them to be on not .

COULTER: Well, first of all I just dispute that 30 -- about 36 states have voted, the people voting on gay marriage and they rejected it. 36 states, including Oregon, including California.

MORGAN: And yet a significant majority of the polls of gay marriage, say Americans are now in favor of.

COULTER: That's probably a poll of all adults again.

MORGAN: Well you kind of criticize all the polls. Some of them have (inaudible) ... COULTER: Well, but I can when there have been 36 state votes. I think we know what American think on that one. There're maybe some issues where you can tell me a majority ...

MORGAN: My point though is -- my sense is that younger people in particular who President Obama would be very good in galvanizing in elections. He runs very good elections with young people.

COULTER: I think that the Obama magic goes away with any of the other democratic candidates.

MORGAN: You do.

COULTER: I think the only ...

MORGAN: Even Hillary Clinton?

COULTER: Only people fainting at her and her rallies are going to be chubby gals from now.

MORGAN: Do you think she will be the democrat nominee?

COULTER: I kind of hope so. I don't think she is that formidable. I think it would be a rerun of -- sorry, this is a New York reference, but another Christine Quinn. We were told inevitable and inevitable she's the next mayor. Next mayor, people came and vote her. No, I don't think so.

MORGAN: Who do you most fear on the Democrats side?

COULTER: Obama. Once you take him out I think as long as we don't run Todd Akin we're doing just fine. And as we ...

MORGAN: Who would you like to see running as a republican nominee? Who's the most electable right now?

COULTER: Well, that remains to be seen. But please republicans, no more inspirational leaders. No more congressmen. No more ...

MORGAN: What about Chris Christie? He's inspirational, very popular.

COULTER: Yes, I won't forget him for ...


MORGAN: Most popular government in the country.

COULTER: I won't forget him for amnesty, but yeah, of course ...

MORGAN: Could he win the election?

COULTER: If he were the republican candidate, OK.

MORGAN: Because your book makes it very clear. Look, we can have all the rhetoric and passion we like. But I want to find somebody who can win an election ...

COULTER: Right, but you're thinking that means we're more of a liberal. That is absolutely ...



MORGAN: I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm saying ...

COULTER: But ...

MORGAN: ... who do you think can exercise your desire to have a winner?

COULTER: I'm not sure I want to see them in debate. I mean, we have a bunch of governors and have a bunch of senators including Mike Lee and Ted Cruz who love them. Let's see them in debate. Let's see how it shakes up on your points on more Tea Party, less party. Tea Party, It varies from state to state. The democrats have, you know, this incredibly conservative democrats that you never hear about, you know, Mark Pryor you just had him on, from Arkansas, Mary Landrieu in Louisiana. Where is (inaudible)? Are they down harassing -- this conservative democrats? No, they know Bob Casey in Pennsylvania, they know, this is the best we're going to get in this states.

Why our Tea Partiers, and it's not Tea Partiers it's dilettantes is what it is. Why are they going and demanding purity from republicans in a state that is a liberal state? It's madness. It's not thinking about winning election.

MORGAN: You can quiver (ph) all the state by state but in the end the republicans have to show unity when they find a general election and, you know, last time basically had again the division with the Tea Party and the motors and so on, you can see exactly the same bubble beginning to boil. I think that you got a male Sarah Palin; I mean I think a much more formidable version Sarah Palin and Ted Cruz.

COULTER: Ted Cruz?

MORGAN: Yes. Isn't he the male Sarah Palin? Isn't he the new king of the Tea Party where she was once queen?

COULTER: I don't see the analogy but I love them.

MORGAN: Yes, but my point is I mean, do you think that he could be more electable to a wider cross section just to win the nomination and mind anything else and republicans?

COULTER: Well, see it's very possible. Look, there will be arguments in a party of ideas, that is one thing as I point out in this book democrats have the advantage, all they want is power, they spend their lives figuring out how do we get elected so we can run other people's lives. Conservatives and republicans ...

MORGAN: And republicans don't to do that?

COULTER: No, look at how we've been doing in elections.


COULTER: We lose all tossed up elections.

MORGAN: Republicans don't want power and don't want to tell us how to run our lives.

COULTER: They want to be pure.

MORGAN: On that bomb shell. Let's take another break while I come down and have a cup of coffee.

Coming up the stars of Will & Grace have a ground breaking shows lasting impact what they say about the series of Vice President Biden says, "Change Americas Values."

And later (inaudible) loss his legs, but still thinks he's the lucky one. Extraordinary man. He's this week CNN Hero.


MORGAN: 15 years ago the groundbreaking series Will & Grace premiered on NBC scored 83 Emmy nominations and 16 wins have lasting impact on American values. So, I must say that here's what Vice President Biden said about the show.


VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: When I take a look at when things really begin to change is a social culture changes. I think Will & Grace probably did more to educate the American public than almost anything anybody's has ever done so far.


MORGAN: An extraordinary tribute there. And joining me now all the Emmy winning stars of the show Debra Messing and Eric McCormack. Welcome to you both.



MORGAN: What a moment that must have been. I mean, were you watching that live? How did you hear about it?

MCCORMACK: I didn't see it. Do you see at home (ph)?

MESSING: I did and I started to cry. I mean, I think it was like the proudest moment of my life besides the birth of my son.

MORGAN: Really?


MCCORMACK: And it was a gradual because we never wanted to take that kind of credit during the show we just want to be a funny show and not take results too seriously. But, it's nice to know that that we planted some seeds.

MORGAN: I mean, not just planted seed but was a pivotal moment really when Vice President Biden made that comment, is it pivotal moment in the whole debate in America about gay marriage? He was the one that asked you went faster than the president.

MESSING: That's right.

MORGAN: And took the president with it. And I think to get a name check to a comedy show on television as being in his life (ph) a fundamental part of the debate process really extraordinary.

MCCORMACK: Particularly when it's, you know, it's been off the air for some time, there was no sort of cultural cliche at the moment to bring this up except to give -- I mean for me I -- there was a lot of criticism really on about my character that perhaps he wasn't gay enough that he was (inaudible) or safe for America, but we were saying today that the idea that's instead of running around and sleeping with a lot of guys, that he was actually just looking for one man to love turns out that a much more dangerous idea to Americans and much more subversive than we realize.

MORGAN: 15 years ago. Do you believe that?

MESSING: No, no, I can't. I mean, we've seen a lot of little clips today and one of them was from the pilot and I honestly had a flashback in my body I felt like it could have been five years ago.

MORGAN: Let's take a look at them this is (ph) when Will tells Grace that he's gay. Key moment (ph).


MCCORMACK: See there's this one teensy little complication, actually not so teensy. I'm gay.

MESSING: Are you hungry?






MESSING: Are you ...

(END VIDEO CLIP) MORGAN: When you said those words, when you're a straight man, so you're playing a gay character did you have any conception of the enormity of that moment both to the debate we just discussed but also to you and to your career?

MCCORMACK: The time we did that episode we were three seasons in or maybe possible, I think was three. And so we had done 48 episodes where gay was just taken for granted, that's who he was and that's what Jack was. And the woman in their lives accepted them for that.

So, they go back and do a flash back at that moment where this woman who had been in love with him where we had, had a kind of straight relationship on -- I think was (inaudible) but was a -- do we realize how huge it was for the character was one thing, but to realize to say that out loud and to -- it was a coming out for him really in a way and particularly in terms of what I'm saying about being safe or whatever (inaudible).

MESSING: I think for the audience it was meaningful because there was enough time that had passed that they had fallen in love with the character of Will and it started to really invest in his happiness and had full accepted who he was.

So, to flashback, to see that pivotal moment just made it, you know, it was a very special moment and it was also the surprise they didn't know that we were in love and engage at any time. So, that that was really the big surprise of the episode.

MORGAN: Will (ph) you see the impact that it had. Again, going back to the Biden clip there when you look at Washington and the ridiculous shutdown of the government and squabbling of the debt ceiling, all this stuff we've all have to endure (inaudible) for the last two weeks, do you think that should be some kind of show on television which does for the Washington dysfunction what Will & Grace did for the gay marriage debate and the gay rights debate?

MCCORMACK: I mean absolutely. It's ...

MESSING: If they're right.

MCCORMACK: Yeah. And that what's the marker (inaudible). I mean, it's still a very divided country and if people show up then that's your answer. It's -- But it is hard certainly in network television to do what we did. It's certainly cable television gives somebody that much more (inaudible).

MESSING: Yes. I think cable TV, you know, you can be more provocative. I think, you know, on network TV there was the west wing. And, you know, it was extraordinary and extraordinarily successful but it was obviously divisive, it was watched by all Democratic Liberals.

MORGAN: Right.


MORGAN: There's a moment it seems completely different world, isn't it? There's Washington and there's the rest of us.


MORGAN: Shaking our heads "What the hell is going on?" Anyway, Debra, you just building (ph) extraordinary drama (inaudible) before you even go to the studio in which you're cheating (ph) death. Tell me about this.

MESSING: I did. That's how important you are to me. That is how ...

MORGAN: I'm truly humbled by this.

MESSING: ... I just had to make it here perfect and true thing. Yes, we were running out of my apartment and get all herded into the elevator to come. And all of the sudden, we started to go down and then it dropped a floor and half and we all screamed.

MORGAN: A floor and half, it's properly clenched (ph)?

MESSING: We've grabbed each other.

MORGAN: You're with your son, Roman. He's what? He's nine years old?

MESSING: Nine. Yes. And ...

MORGNA: And how many people are in the elevator?

MESSING: There were nine of us, eight of us something like that. And then ...

MORGAN: And people screaming ...


MESSING: It could have.

MORGAN: (Inaudible) limit?

MESSING: It could have. It's a very old building. So perhaps, you know, that was a problem.

MCCORMACK: I was napping and I almost over slept. Almost. So, everyone got there (inaudible).

MORGAN: What you do up to for the moment?

MESSING: I'm about to start rehearsal on my first Broadway play.

MORGAN: Fabulous.


MORGAN: But, does it have a name?

MESSING: It does. It's called Outside Mullingar. Mullingar is a place in Ireland.

MORGAN: Well, best in luck (ph) with that.

MESSING: Thank you.

MORGAN: Eric, what are you up to?

MCCORMACK: I was starting back on the third season of Perception on TNT.


MCCORMACK: I start shooting that in January. But I (inaudible) set a film with (inaudible) in Seattle. So that will be fun.

MORGAN: Are you enjoying life after Will & Grace? (Inaudible) with great funness with -- did you miss it?

MCCORMACK: I totally -- the process was unlike -- the sitcom is unlike anything else. It is like a little play every week. And if it's good and the writing is as good as we had if the crew is much fun as we have and we have James Burrows directing every episode. It was ...

MESSING: Then it happen (ph).

MCCORMACK: ... there's nothing quite like it. It's fun ...


MCCORMACK: ... all the time.

MESSING: But I mean, you know, the energy is like this, you have to get the show together in four days, and you have to make it funnier and funnier and funnier and you know that is what your job is. And ...

MORGAN: Well, you're pretty successful at it because it runs eight seasons and it was bloody funny.

MESSING: Thank you.

MORGAN: So, congratulations.

MCCORMACK: (Inaudible).

MORGAN: Thanks to you both.

MESSING: Don't thank me.

MORGAN: And then WE is celebrating the 15th anniversary of Will & Grace with mini marathons of the series going on now through the end of the year. I love to see you both.

MCCORMACK: Thank you, Piers. Thanks.

MESSING: Thank you.

MORGAN: We'll be right back.


MORGAN: Now on the Top 10 CNN Heroes of 2013, Dale Beatty, lost his legs in the Iraq war and find a new mission at home. His organization Purple Heart Homes is helping dozens of disabled veterans get the help they really deserved.


DALE BEATTY: I'm combat wounded Iraq veteran. As I was recovering at Walter Reed my community approached me and said they wanted to help build a home for my return. People would come and work on my project just because they respected the sacrifice that I had gone through.

All veterans have been taught to be responsible for the guy to your left and other to the right. Other veterans haven't had had it as easy as I have. So, I sat down with my battle buddy John and we decided to level the playing field.

I'm Dale Beatty and it's now my mission to help other veterans to support homes they deserve from their communities. There is thousands of veterans right here in our midst. People don't realize the need that's out there. (Inaudible) can help any service connected the disabled veteran regardless of their age or war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the young man why we are all here today.

BEATTY: Just getting the community engaged to get rent for foreclosed home remodeled or an entire house rebuilt from the ground up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Narrow doorways I couldn't get through. I had to crawl in on my hands and knees to have them build a whole new bathroom was unbelievable.

BEATTY: We want to make their life easier, safer, just better. And their emotions are being rehabbed as well. Regardless of when you serve, we are all the same. They just need to know that somebody does care about them.


MORGAN: You can vote the CNN Hero of the Year, That's all for us tonight. Anderson Copper starts now.