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Piers Morgan Live

George Zimmerman Out on Bail; Did Alec Baldwin Use a Homophobic Slur?; Interview with Richard Dreyfuss

Aired November 19, 2013 - 21:00   ET


PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. Tonight, George Zimmerman back in court. He killed Trayvon Martin but was found not guilty of murder. Will he beat the rap in his new case?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The victim had indicated that there was a prior domestic violence incident that occurred approximately a week and a half ago that involved a choking that she did not report to the police.


MORGAN: And a state senator is stabbed in his own home. His son dead at the scene. Police investigating the case said it's an attempted murder and suicide. Is this yet another case of a mentally ill young man falling through the cracks? Plus, Alec Baldwin and the F word, no not that one. Some say this one is even worse. So, what about the NBA star who tweeted the N-word. Who decides what you can and cannot say? We'll battle that out with Charles Blow and Don Lemon.

And 50 years after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, I talked to the man in the white hat. He was side by side with Oswald when he was shot, does he think it was a conspiracy?

We'll begin now with our Big Story, George Zimmerman's latest brush of the law he's out on bail tonight, but certainly not the end of the story. Joining me now is Lisa Bloom author of "Suspicion Nation". She's also legal analyst for Also CNN Senior Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin welcome to both of you.

Lisa, a bail was set at $9,000 most significantly seem to me with two aspects and additional to this. One, the new revelation that you may have strangulated his girlfriend a claim that she has now made, but didn't file any complaint about at that time and secondly, that he's not allowed to have any firearms or ammunition during the period of a span (ph) which is a huge relieve to me if not anybody else. What is your reaction?

LISA BLOOM, AUTHOR "SUSPICION NATION": Yeah, absolutely. Well, with regard to the first the allegation of choking a week ago that she didn't report at that time of course is extremely common for domestic violence victims if she is one to endure a certain amount of abuse before ultimately they come forward. You know, the straw that breaks the camel's back, ultimately they come forward and report all of it.

So, that doesn't surprise me at all if in fact that's true. And with regard to the guns, I mean is there anybody out there who thinks it's a good idea for George Zimmerman to have guns? How many people have to come forward and accuse him of reckless behavior with guns before we start taking it seriously? So at last, you know, he's gun free in the State of Florida tonight.

MORGAN: Jeffrey Toobin, I mean, let's play devil's advocate here, let me remove my own veil of suspicion about everything Zimmerman does and cut to the reality and the facts. We don't really know I guess at the moment exactly what has happened here, do we?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Not at all. And in fact, you know, this charge has been made but it may not even proceed to a trial. What the police have to do now is do an investigation. We have two 911 calls that present completely different versions of what happened. The police have to do what good police do. Are there any witnesses? Are there any -- Is there anyone who heard anything? What is the inside of the house look like? Are there signs of struggle that corroborate one version or the other? What about the gun which is obviously the key issue in the case.

MORGAN: So here's the critical part of this I think is this, is that she says he took the gun out and waved at her in a menacing way. Of course, she then leaves the property to talk to the police. It is not beyond George Zimmerman's brain power because he's a smart guy to simply repack the weapon.

TOOBIN: OK. That's possible.

MORGAN: Right, it's possible.

TOOBIN: But maybe it's not even packed. I mean, this is the kind of thing that the police have to do. And you know the interior of that house will offer all sorts of clues. Now it maybe that this becomes simply, a he said, she said and those are difficult but not impossible to prosecute, but you got get on more and you got to see what's there.

Again, we've learned about this possible strangulation matter that could be the basis for a separate charge. Did she tell someone else? Is there some sort of corroboration of it? All that you have to look into.

MORGAN: Let's a listen to the two 911 calls. Obviously one is George Zimmerman (inaudible) and one is from his girlfriend.


SAMANTHA SCHIEBE: He's in my house breaking all my -- because I asked him to leave. He has his freaking gun breaking all of my stuff right now.

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: My girlfriend has, for a lack of a better word gone crazy on me.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Where is she now?

ZIMMERMAN: Outside with the police.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. The police is already there. And so why are you calling? What happened?

ZIMMERMAN: I just want everyone to know the truth.


MORGAN: So, that's what Zimmerman said because this follows the 911 call from his girlfriend which is a much more panicky call. I mean, call me cynical here Jeff but he sounds very in control, very measured, almost legally he is in the way that he's talking. Almost like he spoke, "Damn it. I'm trouble again. What do I need to do to try and cover myself?"

TOOBIN: Think about how weird it is. You're calling 911 when the police are already there. Clearly he's trying to make a record of what happened. That's what lawyers would call it. But 911 is designed to get the police, to call the police but he's calling while the police are standing there. Clearly he just wants his version on the record. I don't know if that's going to help him down the line but it certainly shows that this is a guy with some familiarity with the legal system.

MORGAN: I mean, Lisa Bloom this is a guy who knows the legal systems He's also a guy who seems to be attracted to endless trouble, doesn't he? I mean, at the very least you've got to say that Zimmerman appears to be a pretty unstable character and then again comes back to the fact the house is apparently chockfull of weapons, shotguns, AR- 15s, all sorts of stuff. It's like he's a kind of ticking time bomb.

BLOOM: Right. And while the judge today said this is a brand new case. And in this case, they're only going to look at the facts as to what happened yesterday.

We in the public are allowed to use our common sense, take the blinders off and look at the complete record. And we know that three women since 2005 have made domestic violence allegations against George Zimmerman.

One is recently as September and that's his estranged wife Shelley. You know, it's not often that an estranged wife and a girlfriend are conspiring together to come up with a similar story against the same guy. Probably Shelley and the girlfriend want nothing to do with each other and yet they both say two months apart that he was pointing a gun at them. Not just holding a gun, but pointing the gun at them, you know, threatening them and making them leave their own home. I mean, it's a very, very similar allegation.

Is there anyone in light of all of that who continuous to think that it's safe for George Zimmerman to be at large? Or that there aren't serious concerns about George Zimmerman's behavior with guns? I think that's a reasonable conclusion for all of us to draw that. This is really a problem person.

TOOBIN: And it's not just members of the public and journalist who can make that inference. It is true that as a technical legal matter if this case goes to the jury. Those other matters are not admissible.

But prosecutors can sit there and say, "You know what? We have discretion. We can decide which cases to bring and which cases not to bring. And we want to make sure we do everything we can. If this case is a marginal case, let's bring the case because we know how much trouble this guy is."

MORGAN: One interesting twist apparently in the last hour. So is Shelley, George Zimmerman's estranged wife has actually served divorced papers on him last night. It was the first time in months she had worked out where he actually was.

TOOBIN: George Zimmerman leads a complicated life. I think we can agree on that. I think we can ask what this woman saw in him to be dating him. But you know what? The real question now is what is the evidence against him? What can the police produce and we don't know at this point.

MORGAN: What are the problems, Jeff final point of view, but part of it maybe that George Zimmerman simply feels fairly impregnable. This is a guy who shot dead an unarmed teenager and walked a free man. It maybe that just in his head he thinks, "You know what? No one's going to stop me."

TOOBIN: No one stopped him. Yes.

MORGAN: Fascinating case, Jeff Toobin and Lisa Bloom. thank you both very much indeed.

BLOOM: Thank you.

MORGAN: This is an absolutely shocking story, Virginia State Senator Creigh Deeds stabbed this morning in his own home. His son found shot to death by his side. Senator is recovering tonight and police were investigating.


CORINNE GELLER, VA STATE POLIC SPOKESWOMAN: Based on the evidence we have right now, we are looking into this as an attempted murder and suicide. Now, this is not an absolute determination because it's still very much an ongoing investigation.


MORGAN: Joining me now is psychologist Jeff Gardere. Jeff, this is an awful story, isn't it? This is a well-liked, popular state Senator and then very well known to Virginians in particular. And his son appears to be suffering from some kind of mental illness


MORGAN: What can we deduce from this case, you think?

GARDERE: Well, we know that, Piers, this past Monday, he was brought to an emergency room in order to be evaluated. That was done, I think they deemed that he needed to be hospitalized, I think perhaps you're looking at some sort of a schizophrenia here. He's certainly at the age of onset, 18-24. He's 24, was 24 years old, at the time this happened. And they didn't have any beds. There weren't any beds located throughout Western Virginia and therefore they deemed that he could actually go home which is unconscionable that we see this happening all the time.

MORGAN: But CNN is not independently verified this is all coming from the Richmond Times-Dispatch one of the local papers there. But if that is true that this boy clearly was suffering from some acute mental illness, taken inside, diagnosed as needing the treatment and then get send home because there's no availability of medicine. That is a shocking breakdown in the system, isn't it?

GARDERE: It is a shocking breakdown in the system and from the research I've done, Virginia has had the highest suicide rate in the past 13 years. In fact that's close to 1,067 suicides recorded since 2011. In 2011 up from I guess maybe 800 in 2003. They're saying two reasons this is happening, Piers, one is the fact that poverty continues to be a problem, but secondly there is no access to mental health. There is not enough access to mental health services and I think this is a glaring case of this.

MORGAN: The father was stabbed multiple times but he's expected to make a recovery. His son took a gun and we believe shot himself dead. It shows again that the finality of a gun ...

GARDERE: That's right.

MORGAN: ... in this kind of situation where mental health issues meet guns.

GARDERE: That's right.

MORGAN: It's always going in the same way.

GARDERE: It is the perfect storm. I know there are a lot of political debates around guns, a lot of political debates around mental health issues but when the two meet, that's when we do have that real big trouble.

So we have to look at, number one, yes. We have to look gun lost but secondly most importantly, what I think as a psychologist, we've got to fix the mental health system in this country because too many people are falling to the cracks. Piers, I can tell you, I worked with parents who have youngsters, young people, 18, 19 who are having problems with severe mental health issues and the way that the laws are written even if there are beds available unless at the time they were danger to themselves or others they cannot be hospitalized and then we see what happens.

Later on, they be compensate and then they do commit a murder, suicide or in this case, trying to commit a murder and then end up killing themselves. It's got to be fixed. We've got to do more.

MORGAN: Why is there so little money putting to mental health for surge? Why is that in fact in many states being reduced?

GARDERE: Well a part of it is because a lot people see mental health care as being some sort of a luxury. We see a lot of the insurance plans for many years they didn't have a mental health component and now we're seeing a lot more of that. And there will be more under the Affordable Care Act whether you love it or hate it. But the bottom line is it is an illness. If you have a problem with a mental health issue, you see a doctor just as if you had a heart condition, a GI problem. So we need to put it on par.

But even more than that, mental health now is at the forefront of what we're looking at politically, socially. So we've got to be able to get to this people who need the help and them what they need.

MORGAN: Jeff Gardere, thank you very much indeed.

Coming next, Alec Baldwin and the F-word, who decides what you can and can't say in modern society? Are some words to be too hurtful with (inaudible) debate coming up. Also, Oscar winner Richard Dreyfuss speaking out on living with bipolar disorder. And why he says the ObamaCare must -- can and must be fixed. He's In the Chair with me tonight.



ALEC BALDWIN: I can't wait for my ride for (inaudible) with the camera. If you want, that is. Well, that is what you wanted it.

You're waiting for my kids with the camera, you know what's going to happen to you, don't you? Come on.



MORGAN: Alec Baldwin's rant is not the first time his words had got him in trouble. This time, a word that a lot of people say is going too far, the F-word, the one that Baldwin himself had called a homophobic slur and one he denies actually using. Who decides what we can and cannot say in modern societies? It's an explosive question. And joining me now to debate all this, CNN anchor Don Lemon, CNN political commentator Charles Blow, and Noah Michaelson, the editor of "Huff Post Gay Voices." Welcome, gentlemen.

It's a bit of a minefield always, even before we started this segment, we were like deliberating what words I could say on air, for example, even if we are doing it as part of a debate. But we decided to shift it all to you guys so you can say whatever the hell you like.

And, Don, put this in some kind of perspective for me, because we've had the N-word debate, you did a fascinating program about it. We now have the F-word debate. But it all comes down to I think is this, is it acceptable for any part of society to use these words? In other words, can gay men use the F-word themselves in their own community if you like, for lack of a better phrase? Can black men use the N-word, black women use the N-word, and yet still be prohibited by everybody else? In other words, can you carve it up or is it actually a case of, you know what, it's never acceptable by anybody.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I think yes and no and as someone who's been called both of those words. I think we should say those so that you would know what they are. You won't say the word, the word is faggot, the other word is Niger, right, or nigga. However you want to say it.


LEMON: I think in the privacy of your own home, I'm not the word police and I don't think anyone should be the word police. I have said publicly, I don't think you should use that word like a pronoun, right? I don't think you should use it in the workplace. I don't think you should use the other word in the workplace as well. You can say whatever you want in the privacy of your own home. But when you're in the workplace, there are rules and you have to have standardized rules across the board for everyone.

MORGAN: The problem seems to me Charles Blow is that say you have group of young black teenagers in Chicago or Philadelphia, wherever it may be, and they're all hanging out together and they're playing rap music, right, and they keep hearing the N-word hounding away in some of this very popular black artists and they start using it as part of their communicative culture, whatever you want to call it, does that not make the situation more complicated? Does it not make it difficult if the word that is apparently so offensive is in common parlance amongst the group who say they find it offensive?


MORGAN: And I'm playing pure devil's advocate.

BLOW: No, no, I know. I think it makes it difficult when people want to have this conversations where if either yes or no. I think that that can, you know, that is kind of denies like historical context. (inaudible) have to disagree phrases that used to say people are trapped in history and history is trapped in them. There's like historical context where the appropriation of abusive language and to try to kind of numb that down. Do I personally want to use that or how it used around me? No, do I intellectually understand the historical context about why that happens in some groups and how people use words and appropriate words that were slurs used against them to -- and take them back and try to replay them. Do I intellectually understand that? I can intellectually understand that. I do, however, worry up to a little bit that we get kind of caught on articulated bias and we loose sight of systematic bias and that is a much bigger issue. MORGAN: I mean, I think I ...

LEMON: But it's not just black youth using that word, it's -- I mean, white youth buy more hip-hop, you know, music than black youth. So, white kids feel it's OK and that's what happened in the locker room with Incognito. It's OK for them to -- for everyone to use that word.

MORGAN: We're going to come predominantly to the N-word in a second segment when we get run to this L.A. Clippers Oklahoma situation. One of the players there used the N-word. But, in terms of the F-word, you've read this great in piece, I can't even read the headlines. It's a very, very smart piece about the Alec Baldwin thing.


MORGAN: About the use of this word, now I want to play a clip from Anne Coulter, you probably haven't seen much of Ms. Coulter's work lately but let's watch what she has to say about this.


ANN COULTER: In defense of Alec Baldwin I don't think the guy, he was talking to the photographer but he's not actually gay, this was just a curse word, like using the F-word and frankly I think a lot of these paparazzi photographers deserve but it's not something Alec Baldwin said you know, in a calm moment on television, he's -- he has been harassed horribly by photographers and now this stalker and he's trying to protect his family he cursed, that is what happened.


MORGAN: In response to that Anderson Copper my esteemed CNN colleague, did a couple of tweet about Alec Baldwin, "Wow. Alec Baldwin shows his true colors yet again how is he going to lie and excuse his anti-gay slurs this time?" Then he obviously read Alec Baldwin's excuse and said, "Just read Alec Baldwin's latest excuses, they are actually so ridiculous they are funny." And Alec Baldwin came up very strongly and said, "What word is said right after the other choice word I use is unclear. I can assure you, with complete confidence, that direct homophobic slur or indirect one for that matter is not spoken. In the wake of referring to a tabloid journalist as a toxic queen, I never allow myself to make that mistake again, nor would I expose my wife and family to the attendant ridicule. My friends who happen to be gay are baffled by this. They see me as one who recently fought for marriage equality and has been a supporter of gay rights for many years. Now, the charge of homophobic bigot to quote one crusader in the gay community is affixed".

See, now I find this very interesting.


MORGAN: Knowing Alec Baldwin as I do, not brilliantly well, well I interviewed him a number of times, I like the guy, he's clearly inflammable, he clearly has a temper that exacerbates when the presence of paparazzi, who he thinks hound them and his wife and his baby, this was not done on television, in one of his shows, this was done in the street, in a standup screaming match, very aggressive situation, with the paparazzi that he loathes, is their any excuse that you could see for him in that particular situation?

MICHAELSON: Right, I don't think Alec Baldwin is homophobic, I think and the question is why did he reach through that word, or those words when he gets angry, I think it's an anger management problem as well, it's a different topic, but why that word? And I think it's because our society has been programmed, we have a history with that word. Well that word is one of the worst things you can say to another man, it's so belittling it's so demeaning and that's all tied up in homophobia and it's tied up in sexism.

MORGAN: OK let's take a break we'll pick this up after the break and we'll talk about the N-word, basketball Charles Barkley, does he can use whenever he wants, is he right, I want to know what you think.


MORGAN: You're live with me debate about the F-word, the N-word and who decides what words we can and can't use. Back with me Don Lemon, Charles Blow and Noah Michaelson.

The first part of the abusive phrase which Anniston is very quick to say was extremely offensive. I didn't, I think I'm honest with you (ph) know that was an anti-gay phrase. I just didn't know that. I was surprised that that was ...

MICHAELSON: But if you say that to another man.

BLOW: Another man.

LEMON: You're an intelligent man, that's the thing. Alec Baldwin is a very intelligent man. You read what he is said.


LEMON: You know, very intellectually smart letter in response, why can't he think that way even in anger. And you're right there's an anger management ...

MORGAN: Because I think to be fair to him or maybe I shouldn't be this fair about being fair because I don't think I myself, although I wouldn't use that phrase just because I wouldn't use it. I'm not sure I would've seen it in my head as being an inflammatory ...

BLOW: But this is thing, like that you got before which is that you don't have to be conscious of your biases to have to be operationally.

So, the idea that you may not look at a bias whether be racial or gender or whatever or identity and say, I am intentionally trying to be harmful to you. You can absorb so much negativity around that subject but you can spew it out and not even be conscious of the fact that you are operating.

MORGAN: But, you know, you made a point in here that you think is perfectly OK and it's that you know friends that do this, but you think it's OK, you said me your piece for a gay man with another gay man, a good gay man to use the F-word in that situation. Again, I would say to you, is he wise that the victimized and they are victimized sections of community whether it's the F-word for them or the N-word in the black community. Is he wise to continue using these deeply offensive words even in those communities?

MICHAELSON: I think that there is something when you said for reclaiming language. And I refer to myself as a queer person, queer is also a political term as well and that was also a term that was seen as derogatory for a very long time also.

MORGAN: Would you be offended if I called you that?

MICHEALSON: If you call me a queer?


MICHEALSON: Yes. I would be offended by that.

MORGAN: But you would continue to use that word about yourself?

MICHEALSON: That defined myself because of the history, because of what I've been through, because of what queer brothers and sisters been through. I feel that we've earned that right. That is the word that we use to define ourselves.

MORGAN: Do you agree with that Don?

LEMON: Nothing offense me. And that's a problem that's really, you know, many times is about you. The N-word doesn't offend me. The F- word doesn't offend me.

If that's the first and the last thing that you can reach I've already won the argument.

MICHAELSON: But I think...

LEMON: That's the conclusion you come that you're going to call me a fog or call me a nigger. I've won, that's your ignorance showing.

MICHAELSON: I agree with that. But I think on a large level and we're talking about institutionalized consequences by using this language. You know, if you call me a fog that's fine. I don't care. I can brush that up. But that contributes to our society looking at gay people in a certain way. So, I think we talk about something in terms of institutionally it gets a lot more dangerous.

MORGAN: But do you think though and Charles Blow comment to this, was Alec Baldwin really being homophobic? You didn't know presumably the sexuality of this guy or was he just being angry and defensive thinking of the first that came into his head which is what I suspect was the case?

BLOW: Right. Well, but look like I said before you don't have to necessarily be intentionally doing something to do it. I mean you -- it can come out of the subconscious and the idea that he doesn't understand the toxicity that has built up around masculinity ...

MORGAN: But is it homophobic if it is unintentional?


BLOW: That is the hardest thing for people to ...

MORGAN: But is it homophobic or he just use homophobic?

BLOW: It is biased.

MICHAELSON: I don't think he is homophobic but I think in that instance that was a homophobic remark there.

MORGAN: But is it fair that the gay communities reason up against Alec Baldwin who most people accept he's not homophobic. In fact as he said it's a lot for marriage equality and gay rights. Is it right that he becomes the standard bearer of homophobic bigotry?

LEMON: I don't know if the gay community has reasoned up against Alec Baldwin. But do you think the gay community - I know they're glad ...

MORGAN: Many had. Anderson was very exercised about it.

BLOW: Yeah.


MICHAELSON: He's a very high profile gay man in America.

MORGAN: I mean not for people happy and very angry.

LEMON: Yeah.

BLOW: Right.

MORGAN: I know, I just want to whether that is a fair way to treat Alec Baldwin.

MICHAELSON: I want Alec Baldwin to think twice before he says that.

LEMON: Right.

MICHAELSON: That's what I want. And I want him to apologize and not kind of dance around the issue and say it's not clear what I said. I said fat head. You know, all these things, just apologize, say you're going to work on your issues and let's move forward. I don't think he need to ...

MORGAN: And I think anyone who's used the word fat head is a term of insult in about three centuries.

BLOW: Right.

MORGAN: He just chose a better (inaudible).


LEMON: He wants him to get it and when you get it, you don't continue to do it. Once you get it, it doesn't become reoccurring.

BLOW: But I think all of these cases, this one, the Paula Deen and everyone that you can find whether it's a prominent person who says something inappropriate.

MORGAN: Let's listen to a clip from -- this is from Charles Barkley. This came after at a Wednesday night game between the Oklahoma City Thunder and Los Angeles Clippers match.

A big argument broke out. And the Clippers' forward, Matt Barnes was ejected from the game. He tweeted from the locker room, "I love my teammates like family but I'm done standing up for these N-words. All this S-word does is cost me money."

Now, he apologized. The NBA fined him for inappropriate language but Charles Barkley then said this.


CHARLES BARKLEY, INSIDE THE NBA ANALYST: Matt Barnes, there is no apology needed. I'm a Black man. I use the N-word. I'm going to continue to use the N-word with my black friends, with my white friends. What I do with my black friends is not up to white America to dictate to me what's appropriate and inappropriate.


MORGAN: Don, I mean, I find it a fascinating debate this.

LEMON: But I think he's right in a sense that when he says with my friends. So if you want to say that with your friends, that's fine. He tweeted it out. People say that in the locker room. That's a workplace. So whatever you want to do in a privacy of your home -- own home is your own business, as I said, I'm not the word police. I just don't think you should use the word as a pronoun so much because that to me, that's the most toxic word in the English language.

BLOW: And go to the logical end, let's assume that word disappears.

LEMON: Right.

BLOW: So let's get rid of all the words I've heard people's feelings, we still had to deal with the issues that hurt people's lives, the things that are kind of below the surface. I'm like, you know, we can - this is a fascinating conversation but it's just a conversation.

As a writer, I love cliches but if there were ever a tip of an iceberg, this is just the tip.

MORGAN: Well, I'm not - I completely agree with you when I grew, my mother was saying, you know, sticks and stones will break your bones ...

LEMON: Yeah.

MORGAN: ... but words should never hurt you which is, yeah, I guess, it's, you know, it's fine for a young white boy in a little village in the South (ph) to take that position what is it matter and I totally understand why to gay people, the F-word is offensive and why to black people, the N-word is deeply offensive. I just wonder whether it's helpful to the debate. If they continue what Charles Barkley want to have the right, definitely a title too as far as I'm concerned, but whether it's helpful, the music and literature and so on continues to be pumped with these words, by the members of the community who say they're so offended by it.

LEMON: Well, sometimes, we look for deeper meanings and often there obviously, there are deeper meanings but sometimes it's just right there. It's just that simple like your grandmother would say, "Don't use the word boy, don't do it in that way.

MORGAN: Right.

LEMON: Don't do it in a workplace." It's just that simple. After that, then you look for the deeper meaning if you want to go on.

MORGAN: Noah, can you forgive Alec Baldwin.

MICHAELSON: Oh, yeah, easily. Like I said I don't think he's homophobic. I don't think he's a bad guy. He's done great stuff for the gay community.

MORGAN: I just still think he's a bigot. You know, if you watch him (inaudible) I just don't think you owe that guy. I think you got a bad temper.


MORGAN: I'm afraid his relationship with the paparazzi is a complicated one because, you know, I remember him setting his wedding pictures to a magazine, for example. And that to me, if you make a commodity out of that kind of thing, you're into delicate territory.

LEMON: Give me an offensive word for bread. Give me an offensive word for bread.

MORGAN: I get called on Twitter everyday a line me, P star, star, star, K

LEMON: All right.

MORGAN: OK. Regularly, right, regularly. I don't think I'm even remotely offended but, you know, should I be?

LEMON: No. OK. So if have a friend and you tell them, that word is offensive to me. And they continue to use it. Does that make them homophobic or racist? I don't know but as a friend, if he is a gay ally, then maybe he should just stop using the darn word.

MICHAELSON: Yeah. MORGAN: That maybe the most sensible way to conclude this debate? Don, Charles, and Noah, thank you all very much, indeed.

Coming next, Richard Dreyfuss, just coming up over the last battle with bipolar disorder and why he thinks the ObamaCare mess has to be fixed.


MORGAN: Academy award-winning actor, Richard Dreyfuss, made his name flame lovable. Let's call him eccentrics and from Jaws and Close Encounters of the Third Kind and Mr. Holland's Opus. He's won us over with his own brand of style and charm, but behind all that success, a life-long battle of bipolar disorder and now he's taking a stand on the ObamaCare mess he thinks it can be fixed. Tonight Richard Dreyfuss is In the Chair. Richard, welcome. How are you? * RICHARD DREYFUSS, ACADEMY AWARD-WINNING ACTOR: Good, good.

MORGAN: In terms of you're own bipolar condition, when did you first realize that's what it was?

DREYFUSS: When I was about 14. I said to my sister, I wonder what would've happen to me if I had never taken any drugs and she said, "Why are you asking?" I said, well before that I didn't, you know, before I smoke marijuana and all that, I was pretty normal. And she said, "Don't revise history. You are nuts when you were born."

MORGAN: So she thought you're always a little bit crazy.

DREYFUSS: Yeah. And I was.

MORGAN: But was that exacerbated, do you think, by the drug taken?

DREYFUSS: No. I was the person who when he talk, he would get up loud, faster, loud, faster, loud, faster, until one of my friends would say, "Well, let's get the big circus kit, cables and tie them around his ankles and pull him gently back to work."

And during that talk, I said 17 brilliant things. So the manic always help me.

MORGAN: Did it help you become a great actor?

DREYFUSS: Probably and I had lived from thrill to thrill and I had a certainty about my success which I can look back now and say, "That was probably part of my manic." But I was -- I always manage to turn it in my favor like if I had bad grades I just decided I wasn't going to college.

MORGAN: You suffered from severe depression at times in your life, you say you never considered suicide because your daughter would've been really annoyed with you, but was that genuine or did you have moments which was so dark that you thought I can't continue like this.

DREYFUSS: No, when I was divorced I lost my sense of self-esteem and I was saying to doctors, "Well, it wouldn't matter, I've accomplished a lot. It wouldn't matter if I got hit when I'm drunk." And they always looked at me as if I didn't lost my mind. But my daughter got grim and said, "Anyone who commits suicide I'll kill."

MORGAN: You actually, of course, in 1991 in "What About Bob?" you played a psychiatrist for mentally ill man. Let's see a clip from that movie.


DREYFUSS: Are you married?


DREYFUSS: Would you like to talk about that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are two types of people in this world, those who like Neil Diamond and those who don't. My ex-wife loves him.

DREYFUSS: I see. So, what you're saying is that even though you are an almost paralyzed multi-phobic personality that is in a constant state of panic your wife did not leave you, you left her because she liked Neil Diamond.


MORGAN: You think you can play a psychiatrist in real life?

DREYFUSS: Absolutely, I can play anyone with a college education even though I didn't have one.

MORGAN: You can study over people do you?


MORGAN: Even though what you've been through.

DREYFUSS: I think all actors should be and when asked by the Screen Actors Guild in an interview I said, "It really boils down to watching people and imitating them."

MORGAN: Take us to significant issues at the moment, one ObamaCare, obviously been a hell of a mess the rollout, what do you make of that and you think they'll fix it?

DREYFUSS: Well, I think for about 100 years one of the political parties has always tried to get a safety net under people and the other party hasn't, and now we have which is an enormous accomplishment and it started with glitches and problems, but I love to remind people that all of our national endeavor started out badly. World War II did not start well or the Highway Act, or Social Security, or the Hoover Dam and what happens is they get fixed by a Congress of both parties and that's what should happen now and if one party says, "No." Then they should anticipate having the sick and the dying and the dead on their lawns. MORGAN: And in terms of the other issue which is the power of the NRA over the gun debate the apparent entrance (ph) of Washington to do anything about that, what is the root through that?

DREYFUSS: Well, first of all I don't think the NRA is a villain, and I don't think that the people against the NRA are villains, I believe that's a problem of the press which started with an us-them problem. I do believe that the second amendment is ambiguously written and we will never have an agreement on whether it's about gun ownership or a militia. And at the same time I believe that there is an inappropriate amount of gun violence and I think we should turn this over to the people who are expert at this and the original mandate of the NRA was to train responsible gun ownership and the NRA should handle it. They should train excellence in gun ownership, they should create the short list of the guns that were allowed at home. And every other gun that they say is legal like people killers and nuclear tip, semiautomatics should be held in armories owned and controlled by the NRA, not the government.

But remember that this is a gun culture, it's also a car culture and no one with any brains would let someone untrained get behind the wheel of the car and I think that that is the analogy that people should remember. The NRA should be thought of or think of themselves as heroes and take care of this problem.

MORGAN: The last stretch for some of us looking people like Wayne LaPierre's heroes. But an interesting argument you proposed there.

DREYFUSS: No, I spoke to a former head of the NRA and I said, what did you think? And she said "What did I think? I did that black flip and then calling people.

MORGAN: Thank you very much indeed. Your nonprofit school, The Dreyfuss Initiative, the website is Thank you for coming in.

As John Kennedy's daughter Caroline begins a new role as U.S. Ambassador to Japan. The man who's by Oswald's side when he was shot tell history and also man in the white hat if he believes there was a conspiracy.


MORGAN: John F. Kennedy's daughter Caroline getting a role and a trip in Tokyo today as she begins to serve as U.S. Ambassador to Japan to carry on the legacy of her father as America remembers his assassination 50 years ago. Also 50 years ago, the death of the president's killer Lee Harvey Oswald shown at the basement of Dallas Police Headquarters.

My next guest is a detective in a cowboy hat seen handcuffed Oswald. Jim Leavelle joins me along with his granddaughter Kate Griendling, he's the co-producer on documentary "Capturing Oswald."

Jim Leavelle, you're now a piece of history really in many ways. When you yourself see that famous footage, that infamous footage, what goes through your mind even now, 50 years later?

JIM LEAVELLE, "CAPTURING OSWALD" ON MILITARY CHANNEL: Well, about the only thing I can think of is a I was hoping to save my prisoner and I didn't do it. That probably goes there with mind more than anything else.

MORGAN: Do you feel a sense of guilt even though you have no reason to but you feel that that how do you manage to keep him alive, you may -- to answer all the conspiracy theories that have raged ever since.

LEAVELLE: Well, no doubt about it had we kept him alive, the conspiracy people would have the hard time bringing up a lot of things that they bring up.

So, yes, indeed, I would have real preferred that I have kept him alive.

MORGAN: You could have also, Jim Leavelle, being killed yourself the way that Jack Ruby moved in and fired his gun. In that moment, what was going through your mind as he burst through that group of people and came at you?

LEAVELLE: Well, you don't have time to think about anything like that. You have -- as a police officer you have to act. Many people ask what goes through your mind, you don't stop and think because if you stop and think, you've already lost. So, you act. Well, in that case, I jerked back on and to try to pull him behind me and at the same time, I raised over and caught Ruby by his shoulder and shoved back and down on him. And by the time I did that, all the other officers climbed on him and pushed and pulled and pressed him down on the ground.

MORGAN: You were the first to -- I should say, you were the first to interrogate Oswald and the last to speak to him before he was killed. What was he like? How did he come over to you?

LEAVELLE: When I began talking with him, of course, I didn't -- I was talking to him about the murder of officer J.D. Tippit and that time I didn't have clue that he was going to be a suspect in the presidential shooting. And at that time, he answered all my questions willingly and as soon as I asked him, he didn't hold back on anything. Of course he didn't answer them all truthfully but he was very calm and collected and I think he's -- I couldn't imagine anybody who had just killed two people could be so calm and collected as he was.

MORGAN: Let me turn to you Kate. I mean, obviously, this is a huge part of your family life, I guess. It must be something you've talked about many times. You've made -- you co-produce this movie, "Capturing Oswald". What do you think about all the conspiracy theories given all the research that you've now done into this?

KATE GRIENDLING, "CAPTURING OSWALD": I agree with my grandpa and the detective in my show. I do not buy into any of the conspiracy theories. And one thing, any of them hold any water, you know, but evidence that they amassed in those first 48 hours, it would have been a conviction on Oswald and I'm convinced with that. MORGAN: And Jim Leavelle. You're actually - you're in, I think the ambulance with Oswald. What stage of all this had you become aware that he had not only killed that police man, but he's also killed the president. In what stage before he was shot, did you know that?

LEAVELLE: Capturing (inaudible), I just came back from the school book depository wherein they had found the riffle and they meet the hole around in the window and so forth. And he'd also found out that Oswald was missing from the school book depository without that permission to be gone.

So, he came in and get ready to seeing people in different directions to look for him when somebody told and well and man that Leavelle told him that he got a name sooner about he was asking about.

The real door to the room where I was talking to him and asked what his name on and I told him, and then, he asked and then I said, "Where do you work?" And he said, "The school book depository." And he said, "But he was the man I want," so I lost my prisoner. He took him, wen to his office with him and that is the last time I questioned him but hat was the first inkling I had and he would going to be a suspect in the assassination.

MORGAN: When you look back in all this, Jim. I mean, how do you feel that you were the guy. This footage got, is played again and again and again that you so closely entwined with this appalling assassination.

LEAVELLE: Well, I would rather never happen to begin with but that's life, things happen and you have to put up with them and live with them.

I wouldn't have thought that they -- this much interest would've been held out this long. In fact, if you could ask me a few days after the assassination, I don't tell to give it six or eight months and you won't hear anymore about it, but I was wrong about that but the circumstances is you just have to put up with what comes along in those case generated a lot of interest, of course. The president was quite well respected before he went and quite obvious in the Dallas but looking at these crowds, I'm getting to hear him, so.

MORGAN: Well, Jim Leavelle, it's been fascinating to talk to you. Thank you very much for you time. And to you, Kate Griendling.

Just remind people, "Capturing Oswald" airs on the 50th Anniversary of the Assassination, Friday, November 22nd at 10:00 p.m. on the military channel. Thank you both for joining me.

GRIENDLING: Thank you, Piers.

LEAVELLE: Thank you.

MORGAN: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL) MORGAN: Tomorrow night, what if tragedy had stopped 50 years ago. What if John F. Kennedy had lived? Well, look now, history may have changed if that fateful day in Dallas ended differently.

That's all for us tonight. Let's see in this special documentary, Ted Turner, the Maverick, starts right now.