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Piers Morgan Live

Patrick Fugit Remembers Working With Philip Seymour Hoffman; Samantha Geimer's Take On Farrow-Allen Scandal; From Boy To Girl; Climate Change Debate: Science vs. Creationism

Aired February 04, 2014 - 21:00   ET


PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is Piers Morgan Live welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world.

Tonight, as America continues to mourn one of its greatest actors, I'll talk to the kid from Almost Famous what he remembers about sharing the screen with Philip Seymour Hoffman.


PHILIP SEYMOUR HOFFMAN, "ALMOST FAMOUS" AS LESTER BANGS: Is that my advice to you and I know you think these guys are your friends. If you want to be a true friend to them, be honest and unmerciful.


MORGAN: Patrick Fugit is here exclusively.

Also, a Hollywood A-Lister shocking charges of sexual abuse and a young girl caught in a middle of a scandal. They're not Dylan Farrow and Woody Allen, this is the story of Director Roman Polanski and Samantha Geimer and the day that changed her life forever when she was just 13. She joins me exclusively tonight. I'll get her take, of course, on the Farrow and Allen scandal.

I want to begin though with our Big Story. The latest on Philip Seymour Hoffman, the police say that a heroin found in the Oscar winner's apartment has tested negative for powerful additive, Fentanyl, that's according to the AP.

Meanwhile, Hoffman's fellow actors are remembering him tonight. Listen to what George Clooney and Matt Damon tell CNN's Nischelle Turner a little awhile ago in the New York premier of "The Monument's Men".


NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Can I ask you? You did star in the Ides of March with --


TURNER: -- Philip Seymour Hoffman. Any thoughts?

CLOONEY: Yeah. Well, it's so hard. I mean we're here doing a premier two days in New York. He's a friend and, you know, I had dinner with him a couple of months ago and I have to say he seemed in pretty good shape and it's -- I mean there's no way to explain it. There's no way to understand it.

MATT DAMON, PHILIP SEYMOUR HOFFMAN'S CO-STAR, "THE TALENTED MR. RIPLEY": It's just a total, horrible, horrible tragedy, you know, and there's nowhere to really go from there. It's like, you know, is there some, you know, is there something ever come out of it? Like is there, you know, is there somebody watching who goes, "Wow. That guy was amazing and he was brilliant. He was a genius." And, you know, he was probably smarter than me and maybe I should just stop doing this or maybe I should try to find help or I don't know, you know. I hope so. I hope something comes out of it somehow. But I can't see how that would be. It just feels like a horrible big black hole.


MORGAN: Another person who shared the big screen with the Oscar winning actor is of course Patrick Fugit. He made his film debut at the age of 16 alongside Philip Seymour Hoffman in "Almost Famous". Since then, Patrick's been in films with Matt Damon and Gwyneth Paltrow and also Ben Affleck in the upcoming highly anticipated "Gone Girl". But he still remembers Hoffman as a role model. And Patrick Fugit joins me now.

Patrick, it's good to see you --


MORGAN: -- and my condolences on the lost of somebody that you obviously worked with on "Almost Famous" and I know that you revered him as an actor.

Where were you when you heard the news and what was your reaction?

FUGIT: I woke up in my -- I live in Topanga Canyon in California and I woke up and unfortunately I heard it on Facebook. I got on my phone and looked up on Facebook and I saw the news reports that people were posting and that's how I found out.

MORGAN: You worked with him and you had this piece on your post today which is incredibly evocative about the actual experience of being a young actor, it was your debut movie, the "Almost Famous", one of the great films and I've watched it many times. That moment when you realize you're really in the presence of a kind of acting genius. Tell me about that.

FUGIT: Well, I mean for me, "Almost Famous" was my first real very extensive acting experience, it was my first film, it was my first leading role and it was my first time around actors of that caliber, Philip and Billy Crudup and Jason Lee and all those guys. We did a lot of rehearsal, we did two months of rehearsal and I got to meet everybody but Philip and Philip showed up on the day and Philip was sort of in character, which Cameron Crowe had warned me about. He said Philip's just probably just going to be Lester-ish while he's around set. And he was but he was very, very kind and watching him and seeing the amount of preparation and the amount of thought and care that went into what he was doing on set those days was a new level, a new sort of territory.

MORGAN: There was also an intensity to his work even when he was feeling sick and had the flu, he just still be right on his game, in fact even more intense perhaps, and a kind of intolerant of try to make you feel good or relaxed or happy --

FUGIT: Yeah.

MORGAN: -- he was like, "Just get on with this."

FUGIT: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I appreciated that though I mean, you know, everybody was very warm and very welcoming to me because I was very young and inexperienced so they didn't want to pressure me too much. But Philip, I mean came from a real, you know, grassroots and very gritty acting background and I think his attitude was like, "Hey kid, you got lucky and now you got a -- now you got to fill the role."

MORGAN: He was clean and sober at the time, having already been treated in rehab predictions in his early 20s and you said in the post, "There was a certain weight that came with it, there was a certain darkness. That's part of what made his acting so compelling and so complete." That he was almost carrying the scars of, I guess, what he'd been through.


FUGIT: Absolutely. And it was, you know, there was darkness there, there's a past there that you don't about and I was appreciative then with his acting and then also it seems led into the way that he chose his roles and chose the films that he ended up in. I mean films like Love Liza that are very, very dark in there, the material and tone but are somehow the most lovable and compelling experiences in watching films for me.

MORGAN: There was an exchange between you in "Almost Famous" and I want to play in a more detail now. This is the scene that Director Cameron Crowe said about this, "My original take on this scene was a loud, late night pronouncement from Lester Bangs. A call to arms. In Phil's hands it became something different. A scene about quiet truths shared between two guys, both at the crossroads, both hurting, and both up too late. It became the soul of the movie. The crew and I will always be grateful for that front row seat to his genius."

Let's watch what he was talking about.


SEYMOUR: And you got a big head start. FUGIT: I'm glad you were home.

SEYMOUR: I'm always home. I'm uncool.

FUGIT: Me too.

SEYMOUR: You're doing great, you know. The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you were uncool. Listen, my advice to you -- and I know you think these guys are your friends. If you want to be a true friend to them, be honest and unmerciful.


MORGAN: I mean one of so many extraordinary scenes involving this guy. He was as many people have said in the last day or so possibly the greatest character actor of his generation.

I want to play another clip from the "Almost Famous". This is where you directly discussed drugs.


SEYMOUR: You take drugs?


SEYMOUR: Smart kid. I used to do speed and, you know, sometimes a cough syrup. I'll stay up all night just writing and writing, I mean like 25 pages a dribble, you know, about the faces or Coltrane, yeah. Just to write.


MORGAN: You, I believe -- you've managed to avoid the pitfalls of so many people, young people who become movie stars in their teens. How have you managed to do that and why do you think Philip in the end was unable to battle those demons successfully?

FUGIT: I don't know, I mean it's a hard question to ask me because I've never gone through that. I've never gone through substance abuse or addition and the more that people come out and talk about their own addictions, the more we learn about how much of an actual sickness it is.

And I think -- I think that people no matter how strong willed they are and whatever choices they might make normally are when they are inflicted by that sickness is very, very hard to differentiate what's controlling what whether it's the person and their will or the sickness.

And I think for me, it must have been a combination of my upbringing. My parents were very grounded people and I had a very grounded sort of life up until that point. My parents are very clean sober people and so I also don't think that I have what it takes to absorb myself in that sort of -- MORGAN: Is there a particular, I was -- I mean I didn't know where a big scene start by the way let me talk to you about a particular pressure of performing even if it's not in front of the live audience but it is a movie performance or whatever where there's huge money riding on it, and there's huge acclaim or huge failure at the end of the process, a lot of particular pressure to performers. Do you understand that pressure and do you think that certain types of addicted personalities succumb perhaps to that particular pressure that comes with performing?

FUGIT: Yeah, absolutely. I mean the pressure goes in several ways once it gets to you and luckily enough I -- my personality reacts pretty well under pressure so far and it sort of helps me rise up to whatever it's expected of me.

And with some people particular artists, particularly very brilliant artists, it's very vulnerable position you're putting yourself in when you're performing. There's public speaking and then there's sharing your opinion in a forum, that's public and then there's performing and performing is very vulnerable. So I think certain people have certain reactions to that.

MORGAN: There was a scene, it wasn't from "Almost Famous" actually, it was a scene that you remembered when you heard about Philip's death. This is from another movie called Punch Drunk Love. Why that scene?

FUGIT: Well, my friends and I really, really love this movie and we had -- since I worked on "Almost Famous" with Philip I started to kind of realize what an incredible, like you said, character actor he was.

MORGAN: Let's take a little look at the clip actually.

FUGIT: Yeah.

MORGAN: I guess people haven't seen it. And let's see what it is.



SEYMOUR: Call 370-0466. For limited time only. D and D mattress has queen mattress sets for $99 and king set for $129.


MORGAN: I mean in a way it kind of illustration of the way he led his life as well. I mean it just, you know, constant highs, constant lows.

FUGIT: Yeah. It's based on a real commercial. And it's like a real video and they redid it and then ended up on special features and it just goes to show how natural and real he can be to pull something off that like organic, really carry.

MORGAN: Funny. How would you like him to be remembered? FUGIT: Well, the way I remember him is that strength of professionalism and that strength of character. When he was on set I got a lot more quiet. He was intimidating. He was scary, you know, guy and I was young and inexperienced. But he was also just very serious about what he did and he was very, very good at that.

MORGAN: Do you think like many, many people that work with Philip Seymour Hoffman that your own acting significantly improve through the process of just being in the same room as him?

FUGIT: Yeah, absolutely. I did an interview yesterday where I talked a lot about how those scenes that we shot with Philip were so influential on the way that I conducted myself for the rest of the film. I took it seriously, but after that it was just a different game. It was a different level and it meant quite a lot more to me. That's it for me.

MORGAN: He is going to be -- I went to a market here in LA in Beverly Hills at weekend, I couldn't believe the volume of people coming up to me who just heard the news wanting to know, was it true and really distressed of the news --

FUGIT: Yeah.

MORGAN: -- a hugely popular man, he may not realized how popular slightly under the radar --

FUGIT: Yeah.

MORGAN: -- of like a conventional movie superstar --

FUGIT: Yeah.

MORGAN: -- and yet when you look at the body of work right up there with the all time greats.

FUGIT: Yeah, exactly. He do. He rode under the radar particularly like in his earlier career for quite a long time. And then, recently in the last five, six, seven years he's really blown up and coming to his own and yeah.

MORGAN: It's a bloody waste, isn't it?

FUGIT: It is.

MORGAN: It's a horrible, sad, horrible waste and I can only think what his family are going through as well. And listen, Patrick, thank you so much for coming in.

FUGIT: Thank you.

MORGAN: I love "Almost Famous" and great to meet you and talk about this great man. You just wrap on "Gone Girl" with Ben Affleck. When's that out?

FUGIT: Apparently later this year, fall. MORGAN: And tomorrow night at Broadway, we'll dim the lights in honor of three-time Tony nominee Philip Seymour Hoffman. Patrick Fugit, thank you very much indeed.

FUGIT: Thank you.

MORGAN: Next, the story that rocks Hollywood, a celebrity a young girl and shocking sex charge. But this is not Dylan Farrow versus Woody Allen. When we come back we'll talk exclusively to the woman at the center of the Roman Polanski Scandal and get her take on Woody Allen.




MORGAN: I'm going to turn to the battle to Woody Allen and Dylan Farrow. Her graphic charges, they said he abused her when she was seven years old to make headlines around the world.

Well, joining me now exclusively, a woman we know as all too well and was at the center of this kind of scandal Samantha Geimer who is just 13 when Roman Polanski gave a champagne and a Quaalude, and then raped her. She tells her story in "The Girl; A Life in the Shadow of Roman Polanski" and she joins me now.

Samantha Geimer, thank you very much indeed for joining me. It must bring back I guess a little vivid memories for you when you see another story that is of a similar nature, celebrity meets the sex meets scandal and lot of headlines.

SAMANTHA GEIMER, AUTHOR: It really has been an odd sense of de avu seeing this play out again. You know, something like this in such a public way and with the similarities of the Hollywood connection and people's rather strong opinions. It takes me back to, you know, when it happened to me.

MORGAN: Do you feel that the public opinion towards scandals like this is slightly worked by the celebrity element and it was different to how it would be if there was no celebrity involved?

GEIMER: I think there's a lot more opinion if there's a celebrity, not necessarily one way or the other, just a lot more emotion, more opinion all the way around.

MORGAN: What do you make of the Woody Allen scandals, what's your personal opinion?

GEIMER: I just think it's, you know, I feel like it's sad to see this family go through this. I feel sad for Dylan that she seems to still be so troubled by it. Sad that it will never be anything but accusations and denials and there won't be resolution. It's just left in this limbo. It's just really unfortunate.

MORGAN: There's an interview today with Woody Allen's attorney Elkan Abramowitz, she was on Erin Burnett on CNN and he had this to say.


ELKAN ABRAMOWITZ, WOODY ALLEN'S ATTORNEY: The Yale New Haven experts, the sex abuse clinic that the authorities sent the case to, investigated the manor totally for six months and determined that Mia Farrow coached Dylan and that Dylan was having difficulty with distinguishing fantasy and reality. They also concluded it did not happen that the molestation did not happen.


MORGAN: Now, it's not a clean cut as that and Mia Farrow if she was here I'm sure would take issue with some of what said then.

But at the end of the day you will have got, I think seven year old girl at the time now an adult obviously who still is deeply traumatized by what happened, whatever that maybe.

Well, I feel uneasy about and maybe you have this perspective to what will happen to you and your family is the way that many people are trashing Mia Farrow, Dylan Farrow, Ronan (ph) Farrow really going off to them in a pretty unpleasant way. I find that very distasteful.

GEIMER: I find that distasteful too. I mean, you know, Woody's attorney he's doing his job. So, he's the person that has a right to go out there and do his job and speak what he believes to be the truth.

But the way go after Mia and Dylan I remember that and it's really unfair and it's uncalled for.


I mean this -- who has the right to have an opinion but someone who is actually involved. And it's a painful thing to have people say horrible things about your mother or about yourself.

MORGAN: And you had this because your mother was blamed for basically helping to facilitate what happened between you and Roman Polanski. You're on view of Polanski over the years appears to have softened slightly in the sense that you -- I don't know, is it too far to say you've forgiven him or you are just less angry about it?

GEIMER: I have forgiven him. I forgave him shortly after it happened. What they said about my mom was a lot worse than what they're saying about Mia. And I was facing so much public scrutiny, and so much activity with the courts and the questioning that quickly roam and fell into my memory and I was surviving day to day. So I am -- I'm a different person, I guess, than Dylan. I forgave him. I moved on. I do not have hard feelings. I hope that he's well, and if he gets awards for his movies, that's fine with me. I have no real interest in people's opinions about it. I know the truth. People still don't believe me, that's fine with me, because for me, I know it happened to me and I don't based my recovery on other people's opinions, and I think that is a good advice for anyone who's been assaulted. Don't wait for everyone to believe you to start recovering.

MORGAN: What do you feel about the fact that Roman Polanski just fled the country and has never actually had to face justice for what happened to you?

GEIMER: Well, he wasn't facing justice. We were all caught up in a rather egregious miscarriage of justice because of Judge Rittenband. So we were happy when he left because it was over. We understood why he left because he didn't know what he was facing. And when you're in a court room that's orchestrated like some kind of Broadway show by the judge who breaks promise after promise, I can't blame him for not feeling confident that if he stayed he would be treated fairly.

MORGAN: In a strange twist in the original probation, officer's report, Mia Farrow read a letter on behalf of Roman Polanski. She starred of course in Polanski's 68th movie "Rosemary's Baby." And she said that he was a loyal friend, important to be distinguished direct to importance to the motion picture industry, and a brave and brilliant man, important to all people.

GEIMER: Yes, she did.

MORGAN: Tell me, do you see a certain irony in that?

GEIMER: I see a big irony in that because, you know, I have no hard feelings against any of his famous friends, who wrote those letters, couldn't believed what he did, and we're standing up for someone they cared about. I understood that at 14, I understand that now. But for her to say, you know, Hollywood far impresses, doing a disservice to all victims of assault. Well, if you're not Mia Farrow's daughter, she writes that about the person who assaulted you. So, it's pretty ironic. I think maybe everybody should pull back and not make this such a public thing, I mean, there's no resolution to it. Let's stop calling everyone names for working with them or for having an opinion about it, you know, it's just -- the rhetoric is way too toed (ph) up.

MORGAN: Did you feel and your family feel that because of the huge celebrity status of Roman Polanski rather like I think the Farrows feel about huge status of Woody Allen and the reverence he has in Hollywood that it's difficult to get a fair shake to feel allegations that he is not treated in the same way.

GEIMER: I had the opposite experience. The minute they found evidence, they were -- he was arrested. It was trying to stop them to -- from prosecuting him in order to save me. So, I think it can go either way. Perhaps, in their case, they weren't believed because he was famous. In my case, you know, Judge Rittenband and some other people involved went after him because Roman was so famous. So, it swings both ways, but it makes a difference, I'm sure, if it's a celebrity rather than just a regular, you know, citizen.

MORGAN: In 2008, Polanski wrote you a letter apologizing for what he had done. What was your reaction when you read it?

GEIMER: I was surprised and happy he sent it. It wasn't very meaningful for me, because I knew he was sorry, I knew he felt bad about it, and I just assumed that. But it was very meaningful for my mother and it made a big difference to her, to my husband, to my sons. So that apology went a long way with my family, and for that, I'm really grateful because I'm always trying to let them know I'm OK. Things are upsetting for your family I think in a way they are first when it happens to you.

MORGAN: What would your advice be to the Farrows about how to navigate through all these because this has been going on now for a long time. It's rated up (ph) in a very ugly way again now. They may never get any kind of real resolution to this. What advice would you give?

GEIMER: Well, my advice would first be, this is a really serious matter and bringing it up on Twitter is probably not the best idea. For Dylan, recover, write your letter, people should take her seriously, they should listen to her, they should understand that she's hurt, and that does it hurts her when he gets award.


I mean, I think she should have her say, people should respect it. And I hope that she can recover knowing that there will always be people that doubt her story because no charges were brought. So she's going to have to live with some people who won't believe her and she just needs to accept that and try and recover anyway. I think that's the best advice that I could give anybody, like recover. Don't let anybody or anything stop you from recovery.

MORGAN: Yeah. And I just have the trashing (ph) of Dylan and Mia Farrow by a certain parties as completely inappropriate --

GEIMER: And it's pretty not --

MORGAN: -- regardless of where the truth lies in all these. That to me stings and is inappropriate. Samantha Geimer, it's a fascinating book, "The Girl: A Life in the Shadow of Roman Polanski." A terrific read and I appreciate you coming on with us tonight (ph).

GEIMER: Thanks. Thank you very much.

MORGAN: Thank you very much.

GEIMER: OK. Thank you.

MORGAN: Coming up, the amazing story of a beautiful, articulate, and intelligent woman, who was born a boy and remained that way until the age of 18. Janet Mock joins me now. It's a quite extraordinary story.



<21:29:37> MORGAN: Janet Mock has a remarkable life story. Janet is born a boy and at the age 18 took an extraordinary step to become the woman she is today. But Janet Mock, even further in 2011, revealing her secret to the world in a profile in Marie Claire magazine. Janet is now a fierce advocate of the transgender community. And telling us story of the new memoir "Redefining Realness: My Path to Womanhood, Identity, Love & So Much More". And Janet Mock joins me now exclusively. How are you Janet?


MORGAN: So this is the amazing thing about you. How did I not know anything about your story? I would've had absolutely not a clue that you had ever been a boy, a male, which makes me absolutely believe you should always have been a woman. And that must have been what you felt when you were young.

Tell me about when you first thought, "This is not right. I'm not Charles", which was the name you were given when you were born in Hawaii. "I'm a woman. I'm a girl."

MOCK: I think for me, it was just -- I always knew that I was me. I didn't know that it was about gender or that it was about anything other than just the inclinations that I just kind of naturally had -- the things that I was drawn to.

My mother loves to say that I was a very vocal and adamant child. She remembers that when I was 3 years old, I landed into the emergency room for putting one of her earring backings into my ear and it went down. I don't rather remember the memory, but I do remember the vanilla ice cream that I got to have afterward.

MORGAN: Do you ever feel like say, "I can't deal with this. I'm going to have to go back to being a boy, Charles." At what point did you change your name?

MOCK: I think from -- it was a series of little-bitty stuffs which I do detailed in the book. But for me, there was never any turning back. It was always moving forward for me.

MORGAN: But when you began wearing the girl's clothes at school, was that when you began calling yourself Janet or was it after you had the operation when you're 18?

MOCK: It was way before that. I was named Janet because of my love for Janet Jackson, because of our shared cheekbones and smile.

MORGAN: You do look a bit like Janet Jackson. I don't want to say a thing, but now you've raised the specter.

MOCK: Well, I would very much --

MORGAN: I've been to meet Janet. You look very like her.

MOCK: I was very much obsessed with the Velvet Rope --

MORGAN: Right.

MOCK: -- at high school. I was very emotional at that time and that album just spoke to me and it was something that I think it spoke to a lot of people who felt different. Janet was fierce on that cover. She was fierce. And then she talked about her sexual orientation and her sexual fluidity, and you know, domestic violence, and all these dark things within that album which empowered me growing up.

MORGAN: So I'm seeing a bit of Janet and a bit of Beyonce, especially with the hair?

MOCK: Oh, I live for Beyonce.

MORGAN: And the dress. Because this is very lot of a dress Beyonce wore, but I did not likely remember every second of that day.

MOCK: Well, I live for Beyonce. So that's a very good compliment. Thank you.

MORGAN: So, here you go these things of courageousness. So you're going to school, you've gone from Charles to Janet, from boys clothes to girls clothes, and you've conquered all the teasing and the bullying, you come through it, has made you, I guess, strong and you had enough to say, "I'm going to through properly with this and become a woman or have a transgender operation which is a huge thing to do at 18. Tell me how you felt when you achieved or approaching the operation.

MOCK: Well, that was a big step and a long journey, right?

MORGAN: Right.

MOCK: It might took 18 years to come to that journey and it seem very young to a lot of people, but for me, those matters are very urgent and they were also very long process. And so, for me, it was a step for me to move closer to me. It was reconciliation with myself. It was kind of a stamp of personal approval of my womanhood.

MORGAN: What was the moment after you had it, when you look to the mirror and you're finally able to think, "Wow, that is who I'm supposed to be?"

MOCK: It felt validating and affirming.

MORGAN: Was there a moment, was it immediately afterwards or was it a month, a year?

MOCK: I think it actually came before it. I think the road coming up to that was actually a bigger journey for me --

MORGAN: As you pointed out, a proper adulthood (ph).

MOCK: -- and place yourself in validation, yeah. Yes, because at 18, I could finally make the decision to do it on my own without having to consult to anyone. MORGAN: It takes such guts, Janet. As soon the thing that strikes me about your book and having met you is you're obviously just incredibly gutsy, very determined because it must be so many people, I guess, some optimizing here trying to persuade this is not a good idea that you should stick to nature's plan, you know, either for all the cliches.

MOCK: Yeah. It's -- I guess, I don't marvel (ph) at it that much because for me, there was no other choice but to be myself. You know, I was a young trans-girl growing up in Honolulu, Hawaii who had parents that were very eloquent but super loving. They were super expecting of me. And for me, I had no other choice. I needed to be myself. I knew that by choosing to live my life for me and cut out all the noise from other people that many would enable me to live a life that was full and affirming and happy.

MORGAN: You come to New York about eight years ago. You got a scholarship in college, moved to New York. You want to earn a Master's Degree. When you first got to New York City, what was that to you after all you've been through to get to this thriving harbor (ph) of all types of people?

MOCK: I think New York was a part -- the third part of my dream. I had three dreams which was number one, wants to become a writer to live my life as myself and three was to move in New York City. And New York City was a huge part of that dream. It's where I was able to find myself and my voice as a writer and then also develop my mission which is to speak out and speak up alongside many girls that grew up like myself.


MORGAN: In 2009, you meet a man and you fall in love with this man, but there's something you have to tell him, something pretty big you have to tell him that he doesn't know which is that you used to be yourself a man.

After the break, we'll find out how you told him that news and how he took it.



MORGAN: Back now with Janet Mock, the author of the revealing new memoir "Redefining Realness." So come on then, you meet this guy. What are your thoughts? This is a big moment for you.

MOCK: For me, I was just in love with another person, and I think that he was also falling in love with me. I had many -- much history. I was -- I've been dating since I was 16 years old, and I have exclusively dated men and I told many men throughout my journey and a lot of that is covered within "Redefining Realness." And I think --

MORGAN: And just to rewind (ph) them. When you have told these men the news, did some of them run in wild, did others surprised you but being very supportive, I mean, how did men react?

MOCK: They were all very mixed. I think disclosure is frightening for anyone that's telling anyone about their past. And for me, I think that the true line there is that we're all looking for someone to love us for fully who we are, not despite of ourselves, but because of ourselves. And for me, I was incredibly lucky that I found someone that wanted to just love me. And also, he's lucky to also be with me. And that's something that must be also stated.

MORGAN: Of course. And he's the lucky one. He's beyond (ph) no illusion. But, there you are.


This guy is called Aaron. He's a photographer designer. He designed the cover of your book, your beautiful cover. He's a very talented guy, obviously. And you know you got strong things for him and he has for you and you got to tell him this news. It must be a big moment because you really cared for him.

MOCK: It was nature.

MORGAN: How did he react?

MOCK: It was a -- it was a pivotal moment. For me, I was the emotional one. Aaron was -- he's a very steady, stable, even- tempered, loving man and so he asked to give me a hug and that's something that it's talked to on the book and I don't want to give way too much, but we are still together and I'm happy with our dog Cleo (ph).

MORGAN: Would you like to get married?

MOCK: Yeah, I would, you know, one day, yes.

MORGAN: So that -- that suggest to me that maybe there's something going on that I don't know about.

MOCK: No nothing at all. It's just --

MORGAN: There's a time he questioned you?

MOCK: Not yet. No. But I would say yes.

MORGAN: Obviously, when you -- when you did all these and then you write the Marie Claire piece and now you got the book and stuff, not many people have come out and being quite so brave and frank and honest about being transgender.

You can see now people like Laverne Cox and others, you know, appearing now in a more mainstream way and I guess helping the American people and other countries come to terms with this as being perfectly normal thing.

For you, it's been a real struggle but you talked about it very honest in the book. Somebody's watching here who might be like a young Charles and still feel they can't go through with this that feel desperate, they want to be woman, what's the best advice you would give them?

MOCK: I think the hardest battle that any of us can fight as E.E. Cummings says is the battle of being ourselves in a world that tells us that we are wrong, that we should be silence and that we shouldn't be ourselves.

And I think that there's nothing that I can tell a young person besides, "Tap into yourself, know your truth, and surround yourself with people who affirm you and love you for exactly who you are." And sometimes if you feel you need to shut out often the ones that love you because often times, their expectations of you can be a lot of pressure and burden.

MORGAN: When you're seeing issues like gay marriage, in particular, moving very fast in America, it's possible that many people imagined was possible, what does that tell you about modern America and its ability, perhaps, to become much more accepting and tolerant than may have been even 20 years ago?

MOCK: I think that that movement has been going on for a very long time. I think that is -- it's a product of much hard work and movement and organizing. It's been going on since the 1960s and trans people are also very much a part of that movement.

I think of Sylvia Rivera, Marsha P. Johnson's, Miss Major Griffin- Gracy. These trans women were also on the streets. They are fighting for their lives that night.

And so, for me, I think that America is about self-determination and exceptionalism and exerting who your identity is in a world that hopefully becomes more and more safe to express yourself and be very open about who you are.

MORGAN: Well, can't think of anyone better to be out there promoting all these than you, Janet Mock. It's been a delight to meet you. The book is called "Redefining Realness; My Path to Womanhood, Identity, Love and So Much More". If I'm Aaron, I would be getting down with (inaudible). A little word of advice if you may.

MOCK: Thank you so much.

MORGAN: Good to see you. What a remarkable lady.

There's a massive storm barreling right now across the country tonight. It could affect 120 million people. So what's causing all these extreme weather? Well, we got a hot debate on that right next.




MORGAN: The punishing winter storm is threatening a huge stretch of the country tonight. Two have been reported dead in Kansas, over 3,000 flights were canceled, and in New Jersey, Governor Chris Christie has declared a state of emergency.

So about a time, we'll have a debate about what's causing all these extreme weather.

Joining me now to your head to head Bill Nye of Science Educator and CEO of the Planetary Society and Ken Ham, the President and Founder of Answers in Genesis-US and the Creation Museum.

Gentlemen, welcome to you. You just have this very high profile and much talked about debate on creationism versus evolution.

So Ken Ham, maybe, I'll start with you. Who is responsible for this massive snow storm raging across America, God or Science?

KEN HAM, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER OF ANSWERS IN GENESIS-US: Actually, you know, the Bible tells us the whole creation is running down because man's fool and then so we do have extremes in weather patters today. But, you know, there's been climate change ever since the flood of Noah's day, we would say massive climate change so, you know, it all depends on the weather patterns. It's what we see today, the way things interact, you know.

Our creations have no different explanations on what's happening they talk about lows, they talk about highs, they observe what's happening, so it's no different of what an evolution is, as we talk about.

MORGAN: Bill, now you've been looking there -- Ken as you have been all evening in the debate, I was catching some of that look of vague battlement on your face and how did you do the debate went tonight? I mean, did you learn anything which was even remotely persuasive to you that maybe you're barking up the wrong tree about this whole global warming business?

BILL NYE, SCIENCE EDUCATOR: No and let me say just inherent in Mr. Ham's and so first of all, it was very respectful evening. I thought we both gave it our best and I appreciate the opportunity.

I just noticed that inherent in his response that was that the world is winding down since the great flood and that somehow the climate change what I heard, what I infer from your remarks, is that this is sort of a punishment for human kind and I'm very skeptical of all three of these things, very skeptical of the ancient flood, very skeptical that the world is winding down except its orbit, it's been slowing because of the pull of the moon and the tides, and I'm skeptical that it's a punishment from a deity.

But with that said there's more heat energy in the atmosphere than there has been in a long time and the rate at which the heat energy is being added is what's causing all kinds of trouble or all kinds of potential trouble around the world.


You can not tie any one event to climate change but interestingly enough, there is new statistical evidence and I encourage you check out the Union of Concerned Scientist that extreme heat events can be tied to climate change. So that when more heat energy is in the atmosphere, you expect more storms.

HAM: Actually, (inaudible).

MORGAN: OK. So let me get back to Ken. Ken let me ask you this. This is what concerns me about this whole debate, regardless of which side you're on, the number of Americans who believe global warming isn't happening has recent went to 23 percent, up 7 points since April 2013.

How is it a good idea that Americans are being persuaded it doesn't exist. If there's even 1 percent chance that it does exist and given the 80 percent of scientist often keep does or want to say the chance is a much higher, but even if you believe your version and it's all a load of hoeey, is it really helpful to anybody to be just take a risk and do nothing?

HAM: By the way, I just want to say to Bill, too, that, you know, some of the catastrophic things that happen and the terrible things that happened in the world even death, in fact that we die, is because of the fall and not because of the flood but, you know, first of all, you know, the debate tonight was not about global warming, it wasn't about climate change. The debate tonight was about creation, evolution, about science --

MORGAN: No, I just asked you a question about global warming.

HAM: -- and that's what we're debating on. So an actual effect -- yes -- and then well, an actual effect. One of the emphases I go tonight was we need to understand the difference between talking about the past, historical science, and observational science and the present.

And if we're going to talk about climate change, we need to apply that. For instance, there are things we can directly observe. We've got records of temperatures and we can understand when things are being warming, let's say, we're a bit in the past and now they're cooling again, and we got records going back a fair way to show those things happen and those things do happen in this world.

But when it comes to interpreting exactly why, I mean, there's some scientist that think that the activity of the sun has a lot to do with the climate on earth and some that believe that --

MORGAN: Right, Bill. Right, Bill, look. Look, look. Ken, Ken, Ken, Ken, Ken, Ken, here's the point. 80 percent of climate scientists believe global warming is a real and present thing. So you're in the massive minority and yet you are very vocal minority. And that vocality is basically increasing the number --

HAM: I didn't even tell you what I believe about global warming.

MORGAN: Well, what do you believe in?

HAM: I didn't tell you what I believe about global warming. I didn't say I believe in global warming --

MORGAN: I'm trying to say your reiterate (ph) --

HAM: -- because we see that and we have records of that.

MORGAN: Right. So I was on the assumption you don't believe in global warming as an entity.

HAM: No. Where I have ever said that? I never said that.

NYE: You've mentioned you run a radio broadcast. There was a link to it.

HAM: One of the things that we say is the fact that, you know, climates do change and we need to do a lot of investigation as to what's actually happening and why that's happening. There's a difference between what you observe and then interpreting the reasons. The different scientists have different reasons, so a lot more research needs to gather in this area.

MORGAN: Did you believe Ken, do you believe as I'm led to believe you believe that dinosaurs and man coexisted?

HAM: Actually, based on the Bible, I believe that all the land animals are made on day 6 and Adam and Eve were made on day 6 and, you know, people try to make fun of us believing that we believe that dinosaurs live with people but there's a lot of animals alive today that according to evolutions has lived with dinosaurs and some of them like crocodiles and for instance horseshoe crabs supposedly evolve before dinosaurs may live today with people. So that's a remarkable? I believe and that dinosaurs will into it (ph).

MORGAN: But do we find fossil bones -- right. But we find fossil bones of dinosaurs going back 17 million years. Are you suggesting that man existed 17 million years ago?

HAM: No, I'm not saying 17 million years and you said you find dinosaur bones with the labels on them, you know. Where did you get the 17 millions years from? Prove that to me.

MORGAN: OK. Bill, lets go back to you.

NYE: The problem -- yes -- if I may --

MORGAN: Bill, let's turn back to you, I mean --

NYE: The trouble that --

MORGAN: Yes, go on, respond.

NYE: Well the trouble is that the climate deniers is to get back to question are introducing this idea that scientific uncertainties especially about anyone weather event like we're having here in Kentucky is the same as scientific doubt about the whole thing. And that is a tactic that's been used for a long time of cigarette industries held up as people do this. <21:55:49>

And my concern and the reason I accepted this challenge in this debate tonight is that we will raise a generation of science students who don't embrace the process of science, who get confused by the idea that scientific uncertainty is the same as scientific doubt.

And this is not in our best interest, you know. As you know, I was born in the US and I'm US citizen. I want the US to succeed. And I do not want the US to raise a generation of science students who don't appreciate the process of science.

Now when it comes to humans living with dinosaurs, that's an extraordinary claim for which, for me, there's absolutely no proof at all, none.

Furthermore, I claim. I challenge you Ken on this great flood that happened only 4,000 years ago and in my opinion, Ken, with all due respect as we like to say, you never got around to saying why there's this extraordinary number of snow ice layers in ice cores is extraordinary old trees and why, for what ever reason, radioactive, radiometric dating would not be true, would not be accurate. How can there be like from stars that are more than 6,000 light years away and so on?

HAM: And we had some of these things in the debate as, you know, and, you know, even looking a tree rings, you have to make assumptions, was it one-year, two-year or whatever and even matching up different trees has assumptions involved in how they match those rings together and I said --

NYE: And so --

HAM: I can form very quickly and then ...

MORGAN: OK. Gentlemen, gentlemen, we'll be having --

NYE: So to me, you're, once again, introducing doubt.

MORGAN: Gentlemen, gentlemen, I'm going to call a truce.

NYE: Thank you, Piers.

MORGAN: You've been out at all night. You've been out on my show but not all night. Please come back again and we'll continue it. Thank you very much. We'll be right back.



MORGAN: That's all about tonight. AC360 LATER starts now.