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Piers Morgan Live

Interview with Trans Rights Activist Janet Mock; Interview with Rudy Giuliani; Interview with Charlie Crist

Aired February 05, 2014 - 21:00   ET


PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is Piers Morgan Live. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world.

Tonight, you can't say that on TV or can you. Two debates, first is what I was thought was a having a cordial interview last night with Janet Mock, a transgender woman who tells her life story in her new book.

So I was pretty shocked when I became the target of a lot of very, very angry people on Twitter in the transgender community. Janet Mock is back only tonight live to debate why that happened.

Then there's Jerry Seinfield taking heat then saying this to BuzzFeed about adversity in comedy.


JERRY SEINFELD, ACTOR, WRITER: People think it's the census or something, I mean this got to represent the actual pie chart of America. Who cares?


MORGAN: We've the side of the story in a moment but I want to begin with our Big Story, the return of Janet Mock. You read about her life as a transgender woman. In the book "Redefining Realness: My Path to Womanhood, Identity, Love & So Much More" and Janet rejoins me now.

So, Janet, I pull you back on the show because, cards the table, I have spent an infuriating 24 hours and I want you to explain why I've had to go through this because -- let me start from this premise. I have always been 100 percent supportive of all gay rights, gay marriage rights, transgender rights, in fact I want equality for everyone in America and around the world. That's always been my position. Anyone who watches this show knows that's exactly what I've always stood for.

I had you on the show. You had a very powerful book. I did nothing but laud your courage, I said you're a fantastic person to be out there sent to stage sending the message, there's no need to stigmatize, to transgender people. I've called you a woman throughout the interview. I never disputed the fact that you're a woman. And yet today, I have spent literally 12 hours being viciously abused by the transgender community. Egged on by your own tweeting last night that you were somehow very dismayed by the way the interview had gone.

Now, I was surprised because you never said anything during the interview to indicate you were remotely dismayed within the turn of the interview (ph) is easy. At the end of the interview, you were very cordial, we shook hands, you thank me for the interview and off you went.

I mean the interview was done five days ago. So I ask you Janet Mock to explain to me why you didn't say anything during the interview? Why you seem quite happy with it afterwards, why you then felt the need to tweet quite hostile tweets in my direction which then sparked this furor amongst the transgender community because I feel pretty peeved about it?

JANET MOCK, AUTHOR, "REDEFINING REALNESS": Well, I'm sorry that you feel offended. I think that people in the trans community feel equally as offended. I think that one of the number things with trans-women specifically is that so much of our lives are open to dissection and illegitimacy and investigation.

And we're constantly questioned ever since we're very young that who we are is incorrect, wrong and should kept secret and I think that being someone that is very visible in a stigmatized community, you know, I am a trans-woman of color, I'm a young woman and these are issues that I think that we need to give trans people space to tell their own stories and we should follow the lead of people who are out there and being visible and actually advocating for views rights.

MORGAN: But that's exactly why I had you on the show. That's why I promoted your book. That's why I told everybody to go and read the damn thing. So, I ask you again, why I have been vilified for being transparently supportive of you? I don't get it.

MOCK: Maybe you don't get it because you're not a trans-woman. Trans-women are ...

MORGAN: Well, explain to me. Explain to me what I did wrong. What did I do wrong?

MOCK: You called -- so before commercial break, we had a lovely conversation and then all of a sudden you said, who was formerly a man. I was a baby, I was assigned male gender because of the parents of my genitals. As I grew up, I discovered my girlhood, I discovered my womanhood and I proclaimed and define for myself as Audre Lorde said. If we do not define ourselves ...

MORGAN: Why didn't you correct me at the time? Why you didn't correct me?

MOCK: I did not because I was scared.

MORGAN: Did you feel that strongly? MOCK: I did not because ...

MORGAN: Scared of what?

MOCK: ... I was fair and I want it to be a cordial guess ...

MORGAN: Scared of what?

MOCK: ... and I think that that was probably incorrect of me. I wanted to be kind. I wanted to be generous because I was appreciative of having two segments on a mainstream show. It was my first major appearance as a young trans-woman who wrote her first book.

MORGAN: And I thought you were terrific by the way and for what it's worth. I thought it was terrific ...

MOCK: And I thought it was a terrific experience too. I think that I love that you called me ...

MORGAN: And by the way Janet ...

MOCK: ... that I looked like Beyonce, that you said all these amazing things and I was great ...

MORGAN: I honestly ...

MOCK: ... but I think that also being offensive and being kind are not mutually exclusive things. I think that we can be completely have great intentions and be good people but also be ignorant and have a lack understanding about these issues and a lot of these things especially for trans-women or about understanding.

MORGAN: Well, OK. I mean ...

MOCK: It's about understanding and intention is great but we also need action.

MORGAN: OK. Let me talk to the quick about why perhaps confusion has reason not just in my mind but in many people's minds. You are famous in America now predominantly from a piece you wrote for Marie Claire Magazine in 2011 ...

JANET MOCK: I actually did not write that piece ...

MORGAN: I've got that right in front of. Well, it's in your words. It's a first person piece by you.

MOCK: I didn't chose the title just like I did not the chose the title on the title cards that were underneath my name in the segment or the tweets that went out from the show.

MORGAN: OK. I don't want this to be -- I don't want this to be a hostile encounter. I really don't ...

MOCK: I don't want that.

MORGAN: ... because I still actually greatly admire you and I just want to make that clear.

MOCK: I appreciate that.

MORGAN: However, this is the piece that I've got in front of me, it was the piece that made you famous the headline is I was born a boy, right?

Now, maybe you didn't write the headline so I read the piece. OK, you talk about going through gender reassignment surgery, a sex change, though I had been born a boy to my native Hawaiian mother, that's the first page. The next day, there were only dolls OK for me a boy to play with and then another reference here on the last page something about my past to share with this is in the conversation with Aaron who is your boyfriend.

I calmly said I was born a boy. So I think I kind of give you the one right on the headlines but do really expect me to believe in a piece you, I personally signed up on that made you famous in which you repeatedly call yourself a boy even in the moment ...

MOCK: I actually did not write that piece, Piers. I also wrote a follow-up piece in essay critiquing that just I like critique this episode.

MORGAN: I read that. I read that. I read that but ...

MOCK: And so, in the book I also ...


MOCK: ... in my introduction of my book I talk about how that piece was so problematic and it's problematic because we don't let trans- women say who they are. We need to just follow trans-women and let them say who they are and believe them when they say that. That's what this is about, this is not about Twitter that's why I was engaging today. I was not engaging in the debate. I continue to move forward and try to continue to make this a positive experience and I want this to be a learning experience.

MORGAN: Right. Explain to me ...

MOCK: I want allies. I want allies like you ...

MORGAN: I want to learn too.

MOCK: ... and supporters like you to continue to support us ...


MOCK: ... and to continue to give us space on your show.

MORGAN: Right.

MOCK: I don't want other people to be afraid and these are touchy issues and they have been since the 1950. MORGAN: Janet, let me say something. I do support you. I couldn't have made that any more crystal clear yesterday. I continue to support you, I've always been supportive of all gay rights, gays marriage rights ...

MOCK: Gay rights are not trans rights. Gay rights are not transgender rights.

MORGAN: I just came to try -- I was about to say transgender. I was halfway through the word.

MOCK: But it has nothing to do with gay rights.

MORGAN: Don't interrupt me.

MOCK: Gay rights and trans rights ...

MORGAN: I'm talking about ...

MOCK: ... are not the same things.

MORGAN: I didn't say they were. I didn't say they were. I'm simply saying I believe in equality for all whether you're gay, transgender, what ever. I don't care. I've always been completely supportive ...

MOCK: I think that's great.

MORGAN: When I read a piece in Marie Claire, a prestigious magazine, you spend a lot of time posing for pictures with them with the journalist, a lot time in her presence she also appears after all this time she's spent with this journalist to be laboring under the massive misapprehension that you have repeatedly referred to yourself as having been a boy who then went through reassignment surgery and became a woman.

Now, that is perhaps where the confusion lay because that's original piece to start all the attention about this. So let me ask this ...

MOCK: That piece should not have been the basis of our interview though, Piers. I wrote the record of my life. I wrote it. It took me three years to write that. It took me years to be the first person in my family to go to college, to be able to have access to those resources and to write this book and to live my life.

In my entire life, I've been told that who I am is wrong and should be kept silent. And so for me, that Mary Claire piece is not the basis of my life. My life is in "Redefining Realness", this book that is a gift not for me. It's to gift to young girls like me growing up so that ...

MORGAN: I get it.

MOCK: ... they know who they are is real and legitimate and that they're valuable, and worthy in protection and ...

MORGAN: Janet, I don't dispute -- but, Janet, we have a moment there of absolute agreement. I don't dispute anything that you just said. I simply asked if I'm being vilified for repeating something from the very start of your media profile if you like has been ...

MOCK: Which I could teach in the opening of my door.

MORGAN: You've made that very clear.

MOCK: Ten pages in, I critique to that piece.

MORGAN: Here is my point, why is this -- explain to me, let me learn something here. Explain to me why it is so offensive to somebody like you who grew up a boy until you were into your teenage years and your family treated you as a boy and you're biologically a boy that you then have gender reassignment surgery and you become a woman. And you always felt you're a woman, as I've said right of the top last night you have always felt inside you that you are female.

And I did not dispute that at all and I don't dispute it to you now. And I have absolute respect for you believing that has always being your gender. But I also believe the phrase gender reassignment means you had a sex change operation. It means that you go from male to female or female to male. That is the legal definition of gender reassignment. So I need to learn.

MOCK: I think that gender is a lot more complex ...

MORGAN: Let me ask you the question -- let me ask you the question, let me ask you the question. The question is here's what I want to learn because don't want this to be an ongoing issue that I have with the community in which you are such a great spokesman and advocate.

I want to learn why it is so offensive to actually just say that you grew up as a boy and you then -- because you've always felt that you're female you've had surgery to become a woman. To become a real woman as you say in the book, why is it offensive?

MOCK: I think that we need to have a discussion about what gender is. And gender expectations in our culture, I think that we are born and we're assigned a sex at birth. That is a matter none of us have control over, but we do have control over our destinies and over our identity. And we should be respected, it's not about the path, it's not about what surgeries I may or may not have had. It's not about how I disclose my gender to people, it's about who I am right now.

I'm Janet Mock, I'm author or "Redefining Realness" and I'm fierce trans-advocate and I will continue to be exactly that.

That's what I was on this show to do. If I spoke out every single time that someone said, called me out of my name or labeled me as something that I'm not. I would not have time to advocate for the fierce and urgent issues in my community, issues of poverty and joblessness, of a lack of healthcare of violence, verbal, and physical violence against trans-women.

MORGAN: How does it help you, Janet, that somebody like me who has been such an open supporter of the community that you represent so well and so publicly that you target me for what you knew would be a load of abuse then it followed (ph), you did.

The tweets last night ignited a firestorm of abuse and vilification in my way because you said I had sensationalized your story, I was not formally a man, I wasn't formally a boy, it was in another tweet you said. All these kind of ...

MOCK: I've sent retweet.

MORGAN: And yet, yeah, but Janet, they were important tweets to me and important tweets to ...

MOCK: And I did not tweet them at you.

MORGAN: Well, I believe.

MOCK: I tweet them at the framework of your show and how they we're packaging ...

MORGAN: Right.

MOCK: ... this story that we did. Our exchange was completely fine but when you package something with the headline, until 18 was boy and also say formerly a man. When in talking about my beloved, the love of my life, in our interaction together that is false advertising and that is entertainment because I understand as someone who wanted me ...

MORGAN: What is false about the ...

MOCK: ... who worked at people magazine who worked as an editor.

MORGAN: But Janet, Janet, it's not ...

MOCK: I understand that sensationalizing our story ...

MORGAN: It's not false advertising.

MOCK: ... entices people to look in. But I hope that the best thing we should get out of it is to be ...

MORGAN: No. Janet, Janet, with the greatest ...

MOCK: ... learning and teaching moment for all of us.

MORGAN: Janet, with the greatest of respect and I mean with the greatest of respect, you written a book "Redefining Realness: My Path to Womanhood, Identity, Love And So Much More", right? I've got here to see the Marie Claire article that started your whole media profile, I was born a boy repeatedly in your words saying ...

MOCK: I did not write that, Piers, it's not my words.

MORGAN: So let me ask you a question ...

MOCK: I'm a writer, words are precious and I really believe that ...

MORGAN: ... let me ask you a simple question.

MOCK: ... we need to give people -- I would like to ask you a question.

MORGAN: OK, can I ask mine first then you can ask yours?


MORGAN: OK? My question is simply this, do you dispute that you were born a boy?

MOCK: Do I dispute that was born a boy? I was born a baby, who was assigned male at birth, I did not identify or lived my life as a boy.


MOCK: As soon as I had enough agency in my life to grow up, I became who I am. And this is not -- I start at 18 when I went to Thailand to have surgery. It started when I was six years old. And my parents saw me for who I was and allowed me to live my life. That's a lot of new ones ...


MOCK: ... and it's hard to communicate that in 30 seconds or even in a140 character tweet. That's why I'm here right now. I want this to be learning and teaching moment for all of us because there's a lot of misunderstanding. Just as much as you were vilified as you say from my supporters -- that's actually my community, who are vilified every single day and misunderstood. And drove into isolation and told that what -- who they are is incorrect and wrong and should be under investigation.

MORGAN: But Janet, but Janet.

MOCK: And my question to you is will you please use your platform to continue to tell our stories and to let us ...


MOCK: Well, there you go.

MORGAN: Yes, as I would have done.

MOCK: Yes, and I would love to have coffee with you and sit down and have a real conversation off air.

MORGAN: I'm sure we ...

MOCK: And really evolve ...

MORGAN: I'm sure we will do that and I would be happy to do that ...

MOCK: ... and have trans-women to understand one another.

MORGAN: Right, but let me jump in. I have never said that you were wrong of anyone who's been through a transgender process is wrong or was somehow in the wrong place or wrong body order. I've never used that kind of terminology. I would see that as being obviously offensive. I don't see that as being wrong that you born a boy and felt you we're a woman and now a woman. I didn't feel that -- and I think that that is wrong, and I don't think the terminology is offensive.

And I think my complaints about what you did with those tweets is that A, you never raised any of these as an issue during interview why repeatedly referred to you, as having been male before. You never pick me up and never showed any sign of irritation. And I think that I just felt that you threw me to wolves there, and by the way I don't mind I'm big boy I can take it, I can take being vilified by anybody. I don't mind being vilified. I get it everyday from people who support the lack of gun control in America, right?

However, however, I do think it was a little unfair that you sparked off this firestorm of abuse to me, when I'm a supporter of your community and always have been. And I think it doesn't do you or your community any good service to try and make people like me the enemy and the target of abuse, and you've read the tweets, you know what I'm talking about, when actually I'm on your side.

MOCK: I couldn't read the tweets. I could not read any of the tweets. My life today in the life trans-people continue to have been more and more miseducated and misinformed within these tweets.

And I think it's bigger than twitter, and I think it's bigger than this book this is the conversation I think our country is going through, well my country, is going through a lot in terms of our culture on trans issues and how then do we report on these lives without sensationalizing. Without enticing, without warping and throwing definitions and labels on people who have the capacity and the know-how and the experience to claim their lives.

And I think our exchange was good, you know, you compare me to Beyonce and I live for her. But it was also bad in the sense that it further showed other people in my community that if Janet Mock can be misgendered, if she can be labeled something that she is not, then how -- what does that mean for me? And I'm only out here doing this work for these girls, they grew up like I did. I wanted to get them a story that reflects them, a story that's sensitive ...


MOCK: ... and full of new ones and love.

MORGAN: OK. Janet, I get it, my advice to you in return would be next you do an interview ...

MOCK: I don't need advice. I don't need advice but I will say guided.

MORGAN: But you've just given me advice. You just given me advice I perhaps also don't feel that I need but I've taken it in your grace. So let me give you some advice. Next time you're doing a big high profile television interviewer and you feel that the interviewer is miscategorizing your identity or your gender. My advice, and I say this in a nice and a friendly respectful way, to say something. Don't pretend it all gone very well and shake them into his hand off and thank him, and then go off five days later and ignite a social media firestorm of abuse in his direction because that isn't fair either.

So I don't try and equate my struggle in life with yours, I've had pretty easy by comparison. Your book remains a great inspiring book. I remain a great supporter of the transgender community. I hope we can both move on from this and I appreciate you coming back on the show tonight, thank you.

MOCK: Thank you.

MORGAN: When we come back, Jerry Seinfeld is he a victim of political correctness to run amok (ph). Listen to what he said to BuzzFeed


SEINFELD: I have no interest in gender or race or anything like that but everyone else is kind of with their little calculating is this the exact right mix?



MORGAN: He's a transgender advocate, Janet Mock. I want to talk more about this issue with Amy Holmes, Anchor of The Hot List at, CNN Political Commentator Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson, Host of the Ben Ferguson Show.

OK. Look. Let's get into this straight away. Amy, have you been maybe...


MORGAN: Second (inaudible).

Let me have it or don't let me have it? What did you make of the second interview, the general debate about what I've had with Janet Mock?

HOLMES: You know, I watched her from the green room. It was really confusing to understand what the conflict was. So I asked two of the folks that came with her to the interview and I said basically, the contention is that Janet never wants to be referred to as ever having been a boy because from her points of view, she was always a girl. And the answer was correct.

But it seem like it was really more of a semantic issue here because the one and only reason why she's on this show, has written a book, is getting national attention, was because she was born with male genitalia, went through surgery and is now female. And that's frankly a pretty sensational thing to go through in life. MORGAN: Right. Marc Lamont Hill, you twitted, "Glad to see my sister Janet Mock holding it down. Salute." This is such an important moment for TV and actually I agree with that. I think it is an important thing to debate on television. But I still feel pretty aggrieved.

I went from being a loud and vocal supporter of the transgender community to the greatest villain in the history of the transgender community within 24 hours. I don't really still understand why.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I totally get your frustration Piers, but I think this is one of the challenges of being an ally and I think you can be frustrated for communities when allies of that community when they're questioned or challenged or critique say, "Hey, wait a minute don't critique me. I'm your best friend. I'm an ally." It's like when why people pointed a number of black friends they have or men talk about the binder's (ph) full of women that they've hired.

You know, it's really important for us to take critique and think about it. Now, I agree with you. I actually wish Janet in the interview had questioned you and challenged you on your use of language around boy and manhood. I think you're wrong to do it. I think she should have challenged you on it. But I do understand her point of being scared. This is a national interview on a major show, on a major network. I could see how she was intimidated and upon watching it later had a different response. But for me Piers, the bigger issue isn't the use of language. It's the fact that so much of the interviews centered around the sensational aspects about genitalia that so much more about trans life, trans experience that I wanted you to cover...


HILL: Chrishaun McDonald, a transgender...

MORGAN: No, wait a minute. Wait a minute. OK. (Inaudible) Ben. Ben.


MORGAN: Lamont, Lamont, -- let me come back on you. I never mentioned her genitalia at all ever in either interview. You're the first to mention. I didn't mention this.

HILL: Well, when you say. Well, no, you alluded to it when we talk about -- if you talk about surgery and when you talk about saying a boy until 18, it implies that she -- her womanhood is...

HOLMES: She had surgery...

FERGUSON: She was a boy.

HILL: That was a very dangerous point.

MORGAN: She was a boy. HILL: OK. But that's not...

MORGAN: Ben Ferguson.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Piers, Piers, Piers.

HILL: Trans identity does not...

MORGAN: Ben Ferguson...

HILL: Trans identity does not change (ph) upon surgery. You can have a penis and still be a woman, a trans-woman.

FERGUSON: OK. OK. Let's deal with...

HILL: ... isn't the key.

MORGAN: All right. Ben Ferguson.

FERGUSON: Yeah. All right. Let's deal with the facts here. She was a boy and she was a man when she was born. Now, she can be in the head and say she refuses to accept that.

HILL: I disagree.

FERGUSON: But based on medicine and based on doctors, you come out and you're a man or you're a woman if you want to change that that's your decision. But let's really get to this, Piers...

HILL: That's not true man. That's not a fact. Ben, just because you say it's a fact doesn't make it (inaudible). But it's not...

FERGUSON: OK. You can disagree with it. But doctors and science agree with me on this. So now let me get to the real core here...

HILL: No, actually doctors -- actually doctors...

FERGUSON: Well, hold on, hold on. Let me finish. Let me finish.

HILL: ... nothing to a gender, that's sex.

FERGUSON: Let me finish.

HILL: You're confusing sex and gender. You should really read a book on this.

FERGUSON: Marc, Marc, Marc let me finish. This boils down into a simple issue. This is fake outrage by a woman who needs to sell books who didn't have the guts to say anything to Piers because there was not a bad interview. You were incredibly gracious Piers and I don't give you a lot of credit on this one. I'll give you full credit.

She decided, I'm sure whether PR team is watching right now, and welcome to this world of selling books. We aren't selling enough. We need a fake controversy. Let's attack Piers Morgan. Drop a fake "F" word in there even though we had no problem with it five days ago to sell more books. That's all...

HOLMES: You know, hold on. Hold on Ben.

FERGUSON: ... this is about selling books.

HOLMES: I wouldn't go that far.

HILL: But you're making things up Ben. Ben, you're making things up. Not of that is true.

HOLMES: I wouldn't go that far to accuse her motives in what she was twitting. But what I would point out is that there are lots of beautiful black women in the world. Lots in this building at this very moment and they are not sitting in a one on one interview with Piers Morgan during prime time on CNN.

She was here to discuss the fact that she was born one gender or one sex, as Marc would like to say, went through surgery, went through a lot -- a psychological process, but also a physical process to become a female.

FERGUSON: Right but Amy...

HOLMES: And we can debate whether or not...


HOLMES: ... that is...


HOLMES: ... superficial or whether or not that is something (inaudible).

HILL: But that's not the only -- that's not the only -- that's not the only...

MORGAN: What I was -- what I saying, OK. Let me bring an end to it. Let me -- wait, wait, wait. Let me -- let me just say this. I think the point Marc is making which is the point that Janet Mock I think is this, is that there's a difference between sex and gender. Gender identity is incredibly...


MORGAN: ... important to people who go through the transgender process. I have learned more about that in the last 24 hours and I think it's important to know about that because it matters to the people that go through that.

So, look, let's -- let's move on. We're going to come back after the break with a couple of quite of genital issues. Woody Allen and Jerry Seinfeld in this race storm (ph) that should spark even -- even more furry from my panel. Look at them. (COMEMRCIAL BREAK)


JERRY SEINFELD, COMEDIAN: People think it's the sense sort of something, I mean, this got to represent the actual pie chart of America, who cares? It's just funny, you know, funny is the world that I live in. You're funny, I'm interested. You're not funny, I'm not interested.


SEINFELD: And I have no interest in gender or race or anything like that, but everyone else is kind of with their little calculating. Is this the exact right mix? You know, I think that's -- for me, its anti-comedy.


MORGAN: Jerry Seinfeld taking hit from some people of what he said at the BuzzFeed. Back with me now is Amy Holmes, Marc Lamont Hill, and Ben Ferguson. So, (inaudible) Marc Lamont Hill, what do you make at what Jerry Seinfeld said because I couldn't help how must I agree with him.

HILL: I think he -- wow, here's your opportunity no man. You're using all the money man. Seinfeld is relying on corrupted assumption. It's the same assumption that informs people who are anti (inaudible) action and that is that the people who have put in to promote diversity are somehow less qualified or less talented. The argument from people who want to diversify Saturday Night Live or comedy troupes is not that they wanted to put to some unfunny black people on as if they are funny people of all races will some how get excluded from the mix. The ideas that- of -- is have a mix of talented people. That's where Seinfeld is wrong.

MORGAN: Look, but doesn't he also making the point and there is a point I agree with. And in the end, humor is humor is humor. And if you sit down with your American pie charts of culture diversity in the country and divide up your humor quote "up in the show" in a very specific kind of scientific PC (ph) pleasing way, I got his point that in the end, you're drifting away from what humor should be which is just spontaneous funny stuff because it really matter, does it?

HOLMES: All right. But, you know what Piers...

MORGAN: To cover a people involved.

HOLMES: ... but Piers, humor is humor is not humor and I think the larger point here is that while funny is funny that's the first rule comedy. It's also know your audience. And Seinfeld pointed out to his audience which frankly reflected where he is coming from. I think that what plays in the Borscht Belt doesn't necessarily play in Oakland. And what plays in the Catskill doesn't necessarily play for my hometown in Seattle where it's all grunge. I think humor can come from a cultural perspective, can come from an ethnic perspective, that then would necessarily mean that you are not going to have a rainbow (inaudible).

MORGAN: OK, right, right. OK.

HILL: And not -- and not only that.



HILL: It's not only -- it's not only that.

MORGAN: Ben, comes in. Go ahead Ben. Don't you get him.

FERGUSON: No, I would say this. As Marc Lamont Hill is talking white friend. Not everything asks to come down the race and I mean let's be honest about this. I would love to be in NFL football player or NBA basketball player but I don't think we need to quote it for white guys that can't jump. The same when he is saying "if you're funny, I don't care what you look like. If you make me laugh, I'll sit down with you and interview you" and I'm thinking about "OK. Well, last Tuesday, we had a white guys. So we need a Hispanic guys and then next week we had a black guy.

HOLMES: But, Ben, what's more importantly is what makes Jerry Seinfeld not to be very specific...

HILL: But that's not the point, Ben.

HOLMES: ... to Jerry Seinfeld and where he is coming from...


HOLMES: ... in this culture milieu and it might not...

MORGAN: No, but Amy, Amy, Amy...

HOLMES: ... and it might not be still the same kind of person.

MORGAN: But Amy, let me put this question to Amy and to Marc. Neither of you would say that Jerry Seinfeld is racist, is that right? He's not being racist, does he? He's just saying, he doesn't want to have some of the compelling pressure of, you must be diverse in this manner, to dictate how he produce his humor. That's what he said.

HOLMES: I mean, I haven't seen any evidence that would suggest he is racist. Now, there wasn't other Cats (ph) member who had a very unfortunate (inaudible) routine that...

HILL: Exactly. (Inaudible) like Martin Luther King.

HOLMER: Right, exactly. But, as I say, the larger point is know your audience and you might be speaking to a male (ph), you might be speaking to a broad audience and just will be...


HOLMES: ... I think in cultural and racial implications.

MORGAN: OK, OK. I understand. I want to move on.


MORGAN: We don't have time on that. Let's move on to this. Move on to the Woody Allen, Mia Farrow, Dylan Farrow -- sad, which is obviously very poisonous in all sides. It's pretty depressing to see a family split like this and all the fool that you can see is almost going to happen.

We saw today that that Moses who is Dylan Farrow's older brother has not come out on the side of Woody Allen and that scores (ph) like great upset to Dylan. He says she is now -- he is now dead to her, her own brother , and so on. And what do we make of this Ben Ferguson?

FERGUSON: Well, I think two three things. One, you know, I hate it when I see someone act as if a grown woman who's claiming abuse is somehow still in a child's mind and still being held like a little child under her mother's endpoints. And that was the part that hurts me the most. This is a grown woman. And I don't think that she is a child. And I don't think that she's being influenced by a mom like she is four years old. The second issue is this. There was an investigation and there were people that thought something in inappropriate happened that just didn't have enough evidence to prove it. And the last thing is, he did marry a stepchild, so there was an awkward, inappropriate relationship that he's currently in right now that's started out...


FERGUSON: ... a weird world anyway.

MORGAN: OK, we've got a very, very quick response from Marc and Amy. Marc, you go first.

HILL: I agree -- first, I agree with -- for the first time in life, I agree with everything Ben Ferguson just said, and second, (inaudible) even more devastating. What of a more devastating is that the world still responds to Woody Allen as the cultural hero when they are whole other folk who've had sketchy (ph) passed the (inaudible) of the world would be marginalized. I think it's sad that we still hail woody Allen in the midst of all these mess?

HOLMES: I agree.

MORGAN: OK. Amy, last words to you.

HOLMES: I agree with a lot about Ben has to say in terms of, you know, walking through the allegations and Woody Allen's behavior. But I'm very uncomfortable about litigating this in public, litigating this over Twitter, you know, at this point, take Woody Allen as you will whether or not you want to see his movies or not, but I don't think we're ever going to get to the truth of the matter. And as they say, it makes me very uncomfortable that the public is being sort of drawn in to this.

MORGAN: OK. We'll leave it there. It's been a night of history in this show because I have disagree with Marc Lamont Hill about -- with everything he said. And Marc Lamont Hill just agreed with Ben Ferguson. So, a quite dramatic development in the history of Piers Morgan Live. Thank you to the (inaudible) panel. You look terrific tonight.

When we come back America's Mayor Rudy Giuliani, we'll know what he thinks of terror threats to the Olympics. Should we be worried about explosives in place (ph).


MORGAN: U.S. government says tonight the bombs could be hidden in toothpaste tubes on planes headed to the Olympics.

I want to know what Rudy Giuliani thinks of all these. He was the post mayor of New York in the big turbulent times in 9/11. And as all to -- well, what it takes to keep millions of people safe.

Mr. Mayor, welcome back to you. Always great to have you on the show.


MORGAN: So a pretty serious warning tonight about the threat from toothpastes and cosmetic tubes, generally, of flights to Russia during the Sochi games, what do you make of the threat that was revealed?

GIULIANI: Well, I think it's part of the general feeling about this Olympics that the Russians have probably done a good job of protecting the inside of the Olympics, you know, within the Olympic compound. But that -- Russia is such a big place. The tensions are so tremendous that it's going to be really hard to contain a threat outside of that compound.

So I don't know how specific this threat is. It doesn't sound like it's terribly specific to any one particular place. But this would be a cause of concern. I mean, obviously if you're going to go, you better be careful and you probably should have a pretty good reason to go because there's a little more risky than normally be the case.

MORGAN: John Kerry told Jake Thomas (ph) today that he would happily go to the Olympic Games and thinks others should too and trust the Russians to keep it safe. But others like Peter King told CNN he could be obviously, he wouldn't go. "If I were an athlete, that's one thing I don't think it's worth the risk." Odd things or nothing is going to happen now.

Are there, but the odds a hive (ph), of any other Olympics that something could happen certainly all the polls suggest many Americans fear something could happen? Well, would you go? Would you feel comfortable going there now as a visitor?

GIULIANI: First of all, I think Peter's right. I think that's probably the right way to analyze it. This is something that has more risk than normal Olympics. It's right next to one of the hot spots in the world. The fact is Russia has tremendous security but these people have foiled their security before. They've carried out bombings in Moscow, other parts of Russia.

So they have defeated Russian security in the past. And we have now -- we now have a threat of what could happen to airplanes.

I think Peter's probably right that you should exercise caution in going. And if you are going to go, you dumb well should stay inside that perimeter because that's probably where you're going to be the safest.

MORGAN: Right. Let's just segue something different. This is identify theft in credit card fraud target a Neiman Marcus Executives when Capitol Hill today about the massive data breach that affected their shoppers 40 million credit and debit records stolen.

And target said they're going to invest a 100 millions of credit assistance and so on but this is clearly going to be an ongoing and probably ever more prevalent issue, isn't it, from the

GIULIANI: Yeah. I mean...

MORGAN: ... the issue of online fraud.

GIULIANI: I don't think people realize how crime has changed over the years. Identity theft went up by something like 500,000 last year. It's the fastest growing form of crime. It's the most prevalent form of crime. You know, it outnumbers burglaries now like 20 to 1. People used to be afraid of burglary. The reality is that, you know, identity theft is a thing that could really harm you.

And the major risk is not credit card theft. People think of their credit cards, but it's -- identity theft, meaning getting your social security number, getting it at social security accounts, getting it at the bank accounts, getting it to medical records. These are all things that are happening.

There's even an aspect to this Olympics in Russia where this has come up where they're warning people that the Russians do a lot more cyber invasion than as normal of a case. And if you're going to go there, don't take your regular cell phone. Go buy a cell phone. Use it only for that purpose and then get rid of it when you come home which is a pretty extraordinary thing to be warning people of.

But you know, I should tell you that I do a lot of work for my flock. And there are a lot of ways to protect yourself, not being one of them. But people should really consider getting protection for themselves. This is going to get worse and worse before it gets better as well as, you know, cyber crime like we're looking at in different parts of the world.

MORGAN: Right. In fact journalists were reporting from Sochi tonight and they were hacked almost a moment. They got (ph) -- let me show -- this is how easy it is if criminally minded people want to get the hands in the stuff. GIULIANI: Just think about how extraordinary that is than you're being told. You better go get a special cell phone and then get rid of it when you come back. Pretty extraordinary.

MORGAN: Yeah. It is but it shows the level of the crime. Just before I let you go, I really want to talk you about Philip Seymour Hoffman and Broadway is dimming the lights for him as you would expect. He's great actor. But this whole issue of heroine now, you know. You've tackled drugs pretty ahead on when you were mayor. Do you think heroine problem, in particular, is becoming a more difficult issue than it was when you were mayor, the same because ...

GIULIANI: Piers, I...

MORGAN: ... heroine use is on the rise?

GIULIANI: I go back dealing with drug, drug crime, drug rehabilitation 'till the 1970's when I was head of the Narcotics Division in the U.S. Attorney's Office when I was like 26 years old. So I really know this issue really, really, well.

Heroine has become much more potent, much more dangerous, much more powerful than it used to be. The reality is it is always meant a devastating addiction.

And he is a great talent that we've lost. I mean, he's one of the greatest actors of our generation. And if he couldn't get the help that's necessary to kind of work his way through this, with all the things that are available -- method on -- all these really good rehabilitation programs, I know people the way heroine addicts in the 1970's that have led perfectly responsible lives. So you can deal wit this and you can get over it. And it is a tragedy that this has happened.

But all these talk about, you know, loosening up on drugs. I don't know, I think, maybe we better rethink that. This is really, really dangerous stuff. If we're in an era in which we're trying to convince people not to smoke cigarettes, I don't know if we should be encouraging them to, you know, when it cause libertarian fashion just to be using any drugs as they want.

MORGAN: Rudy Giuliani, always good to talk you. Thank you very much, indeed, for coming to join.

GIULIANI: Thank you.

MORGAN: Tomorrow morning on "New Day", the man who found Philip Seymour Hoffman's body, his friend David Bar Katz, a close friend and colleague remembers him as, tomorrow morning beginning at 6 AM.

Coming next, switching to go the parties is one thing. We're going get a title of book about way your party went wrong and naming names is another. Charlie Crist is with me In The Chair.



CHARLIE CRIST, AUTHOR, "THE PARTY'S OVER": That's the reason I'm here tonight. Not as a Republican, not as a Democrat, simply as an American who understands that we must come together. Find the one man who can lead the way forward in these challenging times. My president, your president, Barack Obama.


MORGAN: Republican turned Democrat, Charlie Crist, on the Democratic National Convention in 2012. He is once, such a rising star on the GOP. He's on the short list of the vice presidency in 2008. He's new book is "The Party's Over: How the Extreme Right Hijacked the GOP and I Became a Democrat". Charlie Crist is In The Chair with me tonight.

Welcome to you Charlie Crist. It's never easy isn't it...

CRIST: Thank you.

MORGAN: ... to cross the divide between two parties? Obviously, you gave a lot of thought. Obviously, take all the guts to do it. Has the reality been better or worst than you feared or expected?

CRIST: It's been much better than I ever imagined it could be. You know, both Carol, my wife, and I have changed to the Democratic Party. She did it actually about a year before me. And the welcoming we have received, Piers, from Democrats all across Florida has been remarkable. And we're very grateful for it.

One of the first calls I got, as a matter of fact, when I switched and became a Democrat was from Former Governor Bob Graham of Florida, wonderful man, just a revered figure in our state and the notion that he would take the time to get on the phone and call and say, "Welcome to my party." It meant a great deal to me and meant a great deal to Carol. And so, it's been wonderful. It really has. And when I think, notice...

MORGAN: One of the main reasons that you did this was you felt that there was an extremist element to the GOP beginning to rip the guts out of the party. Tell me about that.

CRIST: No question about it. I mean, you know, I think I quote my friend Jeb Bush. He said it better than I ever could that today's Republican Party, at least the leadership, is perceived as being anti- women, anti-minority, anti-immigrant, anti-education, anti-gay couples, anti-environment, I mean, you know, it -- pretty soon, there's nobody left in the room. And I really felt that when I was going to go see the president.

President Obama came down to Fort Myers, Florida in February of '09. The reason was to talk about the stimulus, the Recovery Act if you will. And his office called and said, "Would I come down and greet him" when he came to Fort Myers, Florida at the Convention Center. And I said, "Sure. I'd be happy to." And then, you know, even some of the people on my staff in Tallahassee said, you know, "Governor, are you sure you want to go down?" And I said, "Yeah. Why would you say that?" "Well, he's a Democrat."

I said, "Wait a minute. This man is the president of the United States of America. And frankly, he's coming here to help us." You know, I have to balance the budget as governor. It was a difficult time. People will remember it was the close of the great recession. People were freaking out and frightened. And so, at the time I thought it was important to be with him, show bipartisan support. It was going to save tens of thousands of jobs in Florida for teacher, fire fighters, and law enforcement officers.

So I was happy to be there. And it was a privilege and an honor to do so. I'm still grateful to him.

MORGAN: In the book, it says a lot of fascinating anecdotes. You called Karl Rove a jerk after he berated you in a phone call for another for not appearing on President Bush in 2006. Want to elaborate on his jerkiness?

CRIST: Sure. What happened is President Bush, the younger Bush, was going to come to Florida the evening before the election for governor in 2006 when I ran the first time. I had already, about two weeks before that made a commitment to be with Senator John McCain in Jacksonville. President Bush is coming to Pensacola.

And so, I called Governor Bush, you know, my friend, the president's brother obviously and I said, "Jeb, you know, I just got word that maybe your brother is coming to Pensacola, I already have plans and a commitment to go to Jacksonville with Senator McCain. Is there any way you can check into this? I don't want him to be embarrassed. That's the least of the things I want to do."

And he said, "You know, are the tickets printed?" And I go into more detail in the book but at any rate, the long and the short of it was I ended honoring my original commitment was with Senator McCain in Jacksonville. The next morning of the Election Day, itself, I got a phone call on my cell phone from Karl Rove. And he's screaming at the top of his voice. He's like, "You chicken. You know what, and I can't believe you didn't come and be with the president. You're going to win anyway."

And you know, it just went on and on and on. It was unbelievable. And I've -- that was unhinged. It's just unhinged but, you know, I kind of felt sorry for him to be honest with you. I mean, you know, God speed.

MORGAN: I think we all feel sorry for Karl Rove through on this. And it was good to talk to you Charlie Crist. It's really good book. It's also quite timely because you're trying to get your old job back as governor of Florida. Elections in November and the most recent Quinnipiac poll has you beaten the incumbent Republican Rick Scott by eight points. So good luck with that.

CRIST: Thank you very much, Piers. Great to be with you.

MORGAN: I have a nice (inaudible), as well. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: Tomorrow night, six steps to a new you from a man who can make good on that promise, the one and only Deepak Chopra. He's here tomorrow always at very live as guest. That's all for us tonight. Anderson Cooper starts right now.