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Parker Spitzer
Uprising in Egypt; Interview with Egyptian Blogger; Dramatic Advice for Obama
Aired January 31, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ELIOT SPITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Eliot Spitzer. Welcome to the program. Kathleen Parker is under the weather this evening.
Tonight we continue our ongoing coverage of the uprising in Egypt. A revolution playing out in real time.
Here are the very latest developments, much of this breaking in the last few moments. The Egyptian government is the making one last stand tonight. It looks a desperate attempt to choke off the massive protest planned for tomorrow.
After a brief easing the mobile phones are again being shut down again. Internet services being cut as we speak. Roads around Cairo closed and President Mubarak has ordered a shut down of train service. All of this in an effort to stop what seems inevitable, a gigantic demonstration in Cairo and Alexandria beginning in just a few hours.
Meanwhile, Arab League President Amro Moussa calls for a peaceful transition from one era to another. This is a dramatic step from Moussa, an Egyptian who has been a key ally of Mubarak. This may mean that Moussa is preparing to make his own presidential run.
Also in what might be the "too little too late" category the U.S. State Department has sent a special envoy to Egypt to press the case for democratic reforms. The new envoy is Frank Wizner who was ambassador to Egypt from 1986 to 1991.
And White House press secretary Robert Gibbs calls for an orderly transition in Egypt. It's been the administration's line for several days now but still no one seems ready to state the obvious. An orderly transition can only take place if President Mubarak steps down.
And as events in Egypt continue to develop here are the key issues I'll drill down on tonight.
Tomorrow's march of millions may be the defining moment in the movement against President Mubarak. In Cairo the march is slated to start at Tahrir Square, known in English as liberation square, and will proceed to the presidential palace.
An army spokesman announced the troops will not fire on protesters tomorrow, which is reassuring, I suppose, but the situation is volatile with tanks filling in the central square. It seems increasingly clear that the army is distancing itself from President Mubarak and signaling tacit support for the protesters.
In an interview on state television, newly appointed Vice President Omar Suleiman says President Mubarak asked him to look into constitutional reform. Again it sounds like too little too late with hundreds of thousands of protesters headed for the streets.
And a new name is emerging out of the chaos as a possible successor to President Mubarak. Who is Ayman Noor? We'll introduce you to him later in the program.
We have reporters across Egypt ready to update us on all of this. Nic Robertson is in the northern city of Alexandria where he witnessed the aftermath of a raid on a police station notorious for corruption.
Arwa Damon reports on food shortages. As Egypt's economy grinds to a halt, basic food supplies are growing scarce. And Anderson Cooper is in Cairo where he's been in Tahrir Square and also talking with the man who may be the next leader of Egypt, Mohammed Elbaradei.
Anderson, tell us what's going on there.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, it's about 3:00 a.m. As you say the big story is this massive demonstration that's planned for tomorrow. I say massive. Protesters say they're calling it a million-man march. Whether or not that many people show up, we don't know. If that many people do show up that would be truly extraordinary.
In Tahrir Square today, in liberation square, as we have seen every day of the last seven days, huge numbers of people spending hours there chanting, "down with Mubarak," insisting that Mubarak must go. That no matter what changes or alleged changes he's already made, reshuffling his Cabinet and firing some of his Cabinet, assigning new people, creating the role of a vice president for the first time, Omar Suileiman, the people in the square, the protesters say this is not enough. They want Mubarak out and nothing short of that will be acceptable to them.
I can tell you at 3:00 a.m. I already see a few handfuls of protesters making their way to Tahrir Square, to liberation square, and there are already people there, many people there who've stayed all through the night, just refusing to leave. They won that square from riot police back on Friday and no one has wanted to leave that square lest it'd be retaken by government forces, and they not be able to get back in.
The military here on the seventh day here on Monday did have a much heavier hand. There was a much heavier Egyptian military presence on the streets, Eliot. They made it much more difficult for reporters and for residents here to get to Tahrir Square in order to demonstrate and for reporters to cover the demonstrations.
But again, the big question is what will happen at this march tomorrow? Where exactly will it go? There are those reports which you mentioned that it's going to go to the president's house. Whether or not it will actually make it is just not clear. It is no doubt going to be a very dramatic day.
And as you say, I spoke to Mohamed Elbaradei earlier this morning. He was in Tahrir Square on Sunday night. I spoke with him there. He said, Mubarak must go tonight. Obviously Mubarak did not go because he is still in power.
I spoke to Elbaradei today out in his residence outside of Cairo. And he told me that he's disappointed with the U.S. response thus far. This was before the envoy was appointed. This was this morning. He said that disappointed with the line coming from the United States about their concerns about walking a fine line.
He warned the United States about being on the wrong side of history and betting on not the winning side here in Egypt.
I also asked him about what he thought about Vice President Biden's comments several days ago that he didn't consider Mubarak a dictator. He seemed surprised by those comments. He didn't seem like he had heard them. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: When you heard Vice President Biden had said that he didn't consider Mubarak a dictator, what did you think?
MOHAMED ELBARADEI, LEADING OPPOSITION FIGURE: Did he say that?
COOPER: Yes. This was days ago.
ELBARADEI: Well, I know Joe Biden. I'll ask him to come here for a day and let us talk. I'll take him on a day in the street and talk to the people. If he finds one single Egyptian saying that Mubarak is not a ruthless dictator I'll be surprised.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Mubarak and other opposition groups like the Muslim Brotherhood have called for some sort of a national unity government if and when Mubarak does leave. But at this point it is anybody's guess what's going to happen on this Tuesday.
SPITZER: Anderson, do we know tomorrow if Mohamed Elbaradei, for instance, will speak at this massive rally? Who was determined who will speak, if anybody, and what the leadership positions will be that will be generated by this massive outpouring of opposition to Mubarak?
COOPER: You know, I can tell you -- I think I can safely say nothing is that organized, Eliot, here. I mean literally when you go into Tahrir Square it's kind of different groups arriving at different time. Somebody will have a bull horn. People will share it the bull horn and speak, but usually those bull horns only go so far.
Only a couple of hundred people at most can hear it. So there's not sort of a centralized speaker, there's not a podium where speaker after speaker come and speak. Nothing is that organized. This is so impromptu. This is all happening in real time here.
I did -- I asked Elbaradei this morning whether or not he would be going to the protest tomorrow. He said he thought he would. There's a lot of security considerations. He doesn't really have his own security. He's literally -- when he was in Tahrir Square last night it was pandemonium.
I was literally lifted up by the crowd -- my feet were off the ground. There was -- it was like a scrum trying to get close to him. It was a very touch and go situation for Mohamed Elbaradei. So his security obviously is a concern but he says he likely will go to the march at some point tomorrow -- Eliot.
SPITZER: All right. Anderson, thank you so much for that coverage. No doubt we'll be back to you in the coming days.
Now to senior international correspondent Nic Robertson who is in Alexandria. And we will be joining him.
Nic, what's going on in Alexandria and what are you sensing is going to happen there tomorrow?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're seeing a lot more movement on the streets by the army, Eliot. This is something we haven't seen up until now. They are moving around in armored personnel carriers. They seem more confident in their attitude in the city.
When they first came in they were very cautious. Now just outside this hotel earlier on today we saw an armored personnel carrier come scooting in at a high speed firing its heavy machine gun in the air over --
SPITZER: Looks like we're having a little bit of a problem. Now we're going to go to Arwa who is also in Cairo.
Arwa, what can you tell us? We've been getting reports about food shortages and other sort of basic essentials of life disappearing. What is the situation there?
ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Eliot, Cairo really has turned into a city that very few Egyptians recognize right now. Driving around you see most of the shops shuttered closed. Others have been looted, their windows broken.
This is a very difficult situation. You go up to an ATM machine and the screen is blank. You can't withdraw money. The banks are all closed. A lot of the gas stations also shut some for security reasons. Others because of the lack of fuel. They don't know when the next tanker is going to arrive.
And also now people experiencing a food shortage. We went to a number of local bread factories where lines were fairly long. And people are growing increasingly agitated and angry. The more you move away from the demonstration site the more you hear a very different opinion. People saying that, look, the international community needs to realize that there are still Egyptians who do support President Mubarak. At the end of the day, even if the others are calling for him to step down this has to be peaceful transition. These demonstrations have to come to an end.
People also voicing a certain level of fear saying that all we've known over the last 30 years has been this sort of harsh leadership but if he's to go away who's going to come into his place? Who is going to take over this country? Is it going to be the youth who are out there running this demonstration?
We were actually just down at Tahrir Square that Anderson was talking about just around an hour ago. And there you have people digging in for the night, setting up campfires. Families with small children in tents saying that they wanted to make sure that they got to the demonstration site overnight just in case roads are being blocked the next morning.
Very much a festive atmosphere down there right now. People saying that they're happy for the first time, they are proud to be Egyptian. We spoke to one young woman who said that she herself was taken back by the number of Egyptians that really coming together, trying to bring about this type of change.
But still a lot of concern about the potential for violence. One man we spoke to saying, look, the tanks are just outside. Right now the military is being very friendly, but tomorrow they could be our enemies.
SPITZER: You know it seems, though, there are two completely different strands that we're seeing. One is the festive atmosphere that you describe of the protesters, the unity of spirit and purpose. On the other hand, you describe very aptly the food lines and the shortages and almost the vigilante atmosphere in other neighborhoods where civil society seems to have completely broken down.
Which of those two is winning? And they seem to be competing emotions running through the city of Cairo.
DAMON: There are very much competing emotions. And they are becoming even more intense. This is really turning into the sort of revolt that could threaten to tear this nation apart between those who are pro-Mubarak and those who want to see him step down and are going to demonstrate no matter what.
It does appear to be a battle of wills at this point in time between the demonstrators and between the president. The demonstrators adamant that despite this crisis the country is going through, despite all of these shortages and hardships, they are saying, look, this is small price to pay for the type of long-term change that we are demanding.
And what they are demanding is an end to military rule. They want to see civilians take power. One woman who we spoke to who was at the demonstration site with her two little children, ages 6 and 8, was emphasizing the point that they want a leader that is really going to be able to relate to the struggles that the people are going through. They want to see these economic and social reforms.
And yet on the other hand, other people that we've been talking to, so angry, especially angry at the international media saying, why are you portraying Egypt in this negative light? You're putting out a skewed message. The president is not a bad man. He has taken care of us while he has been in power.
The more these emotions intensify, the more there is the threat that there could potentially be more violence. And that is really the big concern on everyone's mind. But again, these demonstrators really digging in.
Another young woman we were speaking to saying that yes, she was willing to risk her life to see Egypt truly changed.
SPITZER: Fascinating story. Arwa, thank you. We'll be chatting with you over the next coming days obviously to watch what happens certainly tomorrow.
Coming up, a rare interview. I'll talk to one of the protesters who's been working the Internet to bring the people of Egypt to the streets. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SPITZER: The Internet in Egypt is dead. The government has shut it down again in what may be their last desperate stand to slow down the massive million-person protest planned for tomorrow. One of the Egyptian protesters who has been at the forefront of spreading the word and images on the Internet is blogger Ramy Raoof, and he joins me now on the phone from Cairo.
First, tell us what you expect for tomorrow, how many people and in how many cities.
RAMY RAOOF, EGYPTIAN BLOGGER: We have been spreading information about many peaceful assemblies starting from different areas in Cairo and they will all march towards the presidential palace in Heliopolis and similar peaceful assemblies will start in different (INAUDIBLE) around Cairo like Suez, Ismailia (ph) and Mahalla (ph).
SPITZER: And will there be protests in Alexandria and elsewhere throughout Egypt?
RAOOF: Yes. Yes. In Suez, Alexandria and Mahalla. Yes.
SPITZER: And so tell me how have you, in particular, been using your blog postings to communicate with other protesters. This is -- has been described as the high-tech revolution. How are you doing that and how have you succeeded in doing that?
RAOOF: OK. Basically before 25 January, communications were still available and we spread information about the peaceful assemblies for the 25 of January. On that day, 25 of January, the government cracked down on most of the communications and the Internet connections. They shut down the Internet connections, they shut down the cell phones.
They shut down their own (INAUDIBLE) some programs in Egypt. They shut down the SMS services and most of the communications were shut down. From 25 January, after that a few days -- sometimes (INAUDIBLE) were back and me and my friends were able to manage an Internet access point where through it we upload our pictures and videos that we shoot from the peaceful assemblies.
SPITZER: Now have you been able to circumvent, to get around their efforts to shut down the Internet and if so, how?
RAOOF: On the 25th, on 26th the government started by blocking Facebook.com and Twitter.com and (INAUDIBLE) from Egypt. Me and my friends used different programs to break the proxy and access these Web sites from different locations out of Egypt, using different programs, anonymous programs to access these Web sites.
SPITZER: And can you tell whether there's been a lot of traffic on your Web site and to your blog and others? Are you able to communicate to many, many people even though they are trying to suppress your voice?
RAOOF: I think yes. I think -- actually I didn't have time to check the traffic. But what I'm sure of that many of our friends are able to post their footage and pictures despite the crackdown and were able to deliver our voices, pictures and videos of peaceful assemblies to show the real Egypt. Because the national and different channels, there is a very big gap between what they are seeing and what you are seeing.
So for example, if right now you went to the national TV channel you would find a picture of Tahrir Square which is completely empty and also it is completely not true. Tahrir Square has over hundreds of thousands of people sleeping down in Tahrir Square.
SPITZER: Well, we have been able to show the square on our TV and of course we know it has not been empty. There are people -- thousands of people. So you're telling me that the state TV is showing false images of scenes from around Cairo?
RAOOF: Yes. It's all fake pictures, it's all empty pictures showing that there's nothing happening which is not true.
SPITZER: What do you expect the military to do tomorrow? We have heard that they have said they will not fire on civilians. Have they communicated that generally to the public in Egypt?
RAOOF: Yes. That's right. From few hours, the army announced that they are not going to shoot the protesters tomorrow. People so far -- army situation from the army so far, they didn't do any action to show if they are with us or against us that (INAUDIBLE) so far and Tahrir Square, the relation between the peaceful assembly and the soldiers and officers from the army is very friendly. People are exchanging food and water, taking pictures together, speaking together. So there is no any aggressive behavior from the army towards the peaceful assemblies. And we hope that tomorrow -- I mean within a few hours the same also happens that we hope that the army will not escalate any violence towards us.
SPITZER: Is there a difference? You describe how the military is being very peaceful. How about the police? Is the police a presence on the street?
RAOOF: No, right now, no. The first two days it was high presence of the police and many (INAUDIBLE) from the police towards the protesters. Starting using tear gases, live ammunition, dumb-dumb bullets, batons, electricity, batons toward the protesters. And many people were dead and many people were injured. Then the police suddenly disappeared from the streets.
SPITZER: What is happening? We are hearing reports of shortages of food and oil. Is that something you're hearing as well?
RAOOF: Yes. That's right. That's the same thing that's here. We are also experiencing. Our friend in Suez told us that they are running out off fuel because they are getting fuel from different places where there is now traffic. And here in Cairo, most of shops providing food and water are also closed for several days. So there is a little bit of difficulty to provide food and water.
SPITZER: What is the sense that -- as best you can tell of those on the street? What is their feeling towards the United States and the role that the United States has played over the past week?
RAOOF: I think no one is fooling what's happening. There is no any communication for them to know what's happening. But personally for me I don't care totally for what Barack Obama is saying or doing because they have been supporting someone who is oppressing my own people for the last 30 years.
SPITZER: If the president of the United States were to encourage President Mubarak to disappear or to leave, would that put the United States back in a better position, from your perspective, in terms of how those --
RAOOF: No, no. For me no. For me no. For me no. It's the same. I still don't care for what he is doing or what they are saying.
SPITZER: If -- who is the leader of the revolution? Is there a leader? Is it Mohamed --
RAOOF: That's the point. That is the point. There is no leader for the revolution. There is no political group leading the people. There is no one leading the people. People are just going in a very organic way. There is no leader for this revolution. Simply people of Egypt doing it.
SPITZER: All right. Ramy Raoof, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your photos and your blog postings. Stay in touch with us. We no doubt will be talking to you as events unfold. And stay safe tomorrow.
RAOOF: Thank you for having me.
SPITZER: When we come back, Fareed Zakaria will be here to answer the critical question, what exactly should President Obama do next? Few people know more about that than Fareed. You'll want to hear what he has to say. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SPITZER: Ross Douthat of the "New York Times" said this about Egypt in his column this morning. There are devils behind every door. I understood what he meant right away. There are simply no good choices for us. Support the fight for freedom or a long-term ally, Hosni Mubarak.
Here to talk about America's best course, Fareed Zakaria, international affairs expert, host of "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS," friend of the show and I've always said the most brilliant guy on TV.
Fareed, thank you for being here.
FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, GPS: Pleasure.
SPITZER: What are we to do? There simply seem to be no good options.
ZAKARIA: There aren't great options. And part of it is people who want the United States to be much more forthright in supporting the demonstrations have to realize.
Imagine the alternate scenario. The United States were to take ally of 30 years that had made peace with Israel, fought al Qaeda, fought other Islamic terror groups, brokered deals for the Palestinians, tried to moderate Hamas, and say to him, you know what, there are street protests, we're dumping you unceremoniously.
What message does that send to other American allies?
All that said, I think that I have one principal suggestion to the administration.
SPITZER: Right.
ZAKARIA: Which is -- what they're saying publicly I don't care about. There is a balance they have to strike and maybe they can shade it one way or the other. Barack Obama needs to pick up the phone and make one phone call and that phone call should be to Hosni Mubarak, the president of Egypt, and tell him, it's over. You have to go.
How you go, you can choose the manner of your departure. You can try to construct a process by which you leave but there is no circumstance in which you can continue to be the president of Egypt. SPITZER: Let's talk about the military for a minute, because you said something so important. The military has so far at least said it will not fire on Egyptian civilians. Is there a point at which that would change?
ZAKARIA: They are the absolutely crucial player. Let's remember this is fundamentally a military dictatorship.
SPITZER: Right.
ZAKARIA: It masks itself in civilian clothes but in 1952 when Nasser took power, it was an officer's coup. It has basically been the backbone of this regime ever since. And the military is trying to figure out -- I guarantee you the most important man in Egypt right now is Field Marshal Tantawi, not Mubarak. The head of the military. And he's trying to figure out can they save the regime which provides enormous benefits to the military --
SPITZER: Right.
ZAKARIA: -- by sacrificing Mubarak?
SPITZER: We've talked -- referred to a fair number of countries over the course of these couple of minutes. Which -- and everybody is saying which metaphor applies here? Is this Iran where you have the Shah being over thrown and then you have an ideologically driven religious radical group taking over? Or is this Eastern Europe where we saw the fall of communism and we saw essentially democracies rise in its stead?
Which of these metaphors makes sense?
ZAKARIA: I had a history professor at college who said, you know, history never really repeats itself. It only appears to --
SPITZER: Right.
ZAKARIA: -- to the people who don't know the details.
SPITZER: Right.
ZAKARIA: I think it's not Iran. There does not seem to be -- you know, theocracy in the making here. The Brotherhood even -- the Muslim Brotherhood, it does not have the aspirations of the Iranians to create a kind of Islamic state.
And it's not Eastern Europe because you don't have the societies that are essentially western and liberal societies that have been clamped down on.
Look, this is a messy Arab society which will have many, many difficulties. Look at Iraq and Iraq's democracy. I do think, though, it is the center of the Arab world. It is the place that everybody in the Arab world looks to. So what happens in Egypt will have an impact. SPITZER: You said the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't have the aspirations to create a theocracy. Do they not have the aspirations or do they not have the power to do it at this point?
ZAKARIA: For the last 30 years or so, the Muslim Brotherhood seems to have moved in a direction of wanting to be a conservative socially religious organization that wants to institute some greater element of Shari. Now I do understand what that means, a lot of that is social welfare stuff. Some of it is things like the veil. Some of it is court procedures in which unfortunately women would have few voices.
But it's not some kind of totalitarian dictatorship. They seem to have accommodated themselves to the idea of democracy and they have done so for decades now.
SPITZER: Of course, the fear of what the Muslim Brotherhood stands for is saying to many people and forcing people so say, we've got to support Mubarak because that is the alternative.
ZAKARIA: Well, you see that most strikingly in Israel.
SPITZER: Right.
ZAKARIA: Where -- you know I mean a lot of the Israeli right tend to be kind of neo-cons. But on this issue they are turning out to be brutally realpolitik. They like Mubarak. They've dealt with Mubarak. Mubarak has been good for Israel and they don't want to see. Shimon Peres praised Mubarak to the skies today.
SPITZER: Given the overwhelming logic what you're saying about why President Obama should pick up the phone and make that call to President Mubarak, why has he not made it? What is he fearful? Is he fearful of the pushback from Saudi Arabia, from Jordan?
ZAKARIA: Oh, I'm sure he's getting pushback from all those countries. I think it's the balancing act, the way we're talking about. I think he's just got the balance wrong.
SPITZER: Will President Obama ever persuade the Saudi regime that forcing Mubarak out is the right thing to do?
ZAKARIA: No, no. Because the Saudi regime has no need to worry. They have a different compact with their people. They bribe them and it seems to work.
SPITZER: Because they have greater oil wealth and so they're able to throw baubles at the entire public.
ZAKARIA: Look at what happened in Kuwait. The Kuwaiti Amir just announced that every Kuwaiti is being given a gift of $3,000. Just a check to celebrate.
SPITZER: Right. Sounds like U.S. politics.
ZAKARIA: Yes. To celebrate somebody I can't remember -- the 30th anniversary of the Amir's reign or something.
SPITZER: Right.
ZAKARIA: So, you know, I think they might be all right, but they will never accept the idea of dislodging the regime. In an odd way, some of what's happening here is because of Egyptian successes over the last few years.
SPITZER: Right.
ZAKARIA: They've been opening up the economy which stirs things up, and it creates aspirations and it raises expectations. And then to have a political system that's so repressive, it became untenable.
SPITZER: Some of the data about Egypt would make you think this shouldn't happen. Yes, there's massive poverty but the economy has been growing six, seven percent a year. And that is about as good as you can get.
ZAKARIA: It's what social scientists call a revolution of rising expectations. Tocqueville when he wrote about the French revolution said the worst moment for a bad regime is when it starts to reform.
SPITZER: Right.
ZAKARIA: Because it raises expectations but it's never going to respond to all those expectations because it's still a dictatorship.
SPITZER: And you also had other data. Massive unemployment, wealth that was very, very concentrated at the very top.
Now, where else in the Arab world or elsewhere in the world does this message begin to resonate? We've seen Tunisia. Now we have Egypt. Briefly in Jordan, Yemen. Where does it go next? Is this a virus that is spreading?
ZAKARIA: Well, you have to look at Jordan very closely because it's another nonoil producing state and it's a pretty, you know, it's a pretty closed system as well. Syria has taken an interesting tact which is to do no reforms whatsoever.
SPITZER: Right, right.
ZAKARIA: So in a strange sense, you know, they have the kind of stability of North Korea.
SPITZER: Right.
ZAKARIA: They may be able to get through it. But I think honestly it's unpredictable. I would be stunned if this was the last one. Egypt is too central to the Arab imagination. I think you have to look at Morocco, Algeria, Syria, Jordan. The gulf states and those monarchies, those are such small countries, they may be exempt. They may have somehow escaped this. But even there I think people are going to say, why don't we have a free press, why don't we have more accountability? Because once they see it in Egypt and it doesn't come from the barrel of the United States, it doesn't come from an American invasion, it comes from an organic uprising, I think lots of people in the Arab world they're saying, this could be me.
SPITZER: Because Egypt has always been the lynchpin emotionally of what happens in the Arab world?
ZAKARIA: Today when the Arabs watch movies, they all come from Egypt. When they listen to songs, they all come from Egypt.
SPITZER: Right.
ZAKARIA: Egypt is the heart and soul of the Arab world.
SPITZER: Right. Fascinating. Fareed, thank you so much. This will continue no doubt. I hope to have you back.
ZAKARIA: A pleasure, Eliot.
SPITZER: Thank you. We'll be back shortly.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SPITZER: Back now to Alexandria, Egypt where demonstrators have launched full-scale attacks on local police stations. Senior international correspondent Nic Robertson got a firsthand look at the aftermath in two of the stations. He takes us inside the wreckage.
Nic? Nic, what can you tell us about what you've seen today?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, going inside these police stations there, you get an idea the government has pushed to put policemen back on the streets today. You can see when you go in the police station that it's going to take more than putting a couple of cops back on the beat. They're destroyed, they're wrecked, they're burned out inside. The papers, the documents that people use to get identification papers that the police use for their records of who they've arrested, what they've charged them with, all those things have been burned inside. And so one station, for example, we saw all the guns had been looted. A rack of 20 AK-47s had been looted by the crowds there. The same in another police station as well. So the picture that emerges is of a police force that, even if you have the policemen ready to come back to work which doesn't seem to be happening here, you're going to have a hard time organizing them and putting them to work in an effective way, Eliot.
SPITZER: The military has made it very clear it is not going to fire the protesters. Are the police backing off indicating any support for the protests as well?
ROBERTSON: No. At the moment, you just don't have -- you really don't have the police on the streets in numbers to make any kind of a difference. And what you do have and we've seen today is the army taking a slightly more aggressive position, driving the APCs (ph) through the streets.
There was an incident not far from here where it seemed that the crowd was getting out of hand and angry. An army APC, armored personnel carrier came through the heavy machine gun firing way high in the air. A lot of the protest that that quelled the situation, but that shows you that the army is perhaps taking a slightly different position. We haven't seen that before.
But in it you're going to say, if you go back to those police stations we're walking out today, you get a sense of just how big the loss to law and order and security has been suffered in the demonstrations. This was a look inside one of the stations.
SPITZER: Nic, and what --
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON: This is another police station we're going into, much bigger. And this one we was feared because this is one we're told where people were brought in for torture. It's not far from here is the police station where the policemen took a street vendor last summer and beat him on the streets. This is the way down to the cells.
These are the cells where people were brought to. People tell us they're brought here because they were brought here to be tortured, to be beaten up to intimidate them. And that's why people today are so angry at the police and that's why they say when the police come back on the streets and they see one or two of them, they're still angry that the police are just taking the same arrogant attitude towards them.
What the people here tell us is happening is they're taking these policemen and handing them over to the army because they trust the army. That's what they tell us.
And you were arrested and held at this police station.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
ROBERTSON: What was it like? I mean, what's it like now to be back here when it's like this? How does it feel?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God give (ph) me my rights back.
ROBERTSON: They gave your rights back?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I feel that. I have my rights back here.
ROBERTSON: And what happened to you in this police station?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm an accountant. And everything goes bad. Everything was bad. I just can't have my human rights here.
ROBERTSON: So when you were arrested and the police took you here, what did they do to you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just have an accident with my car. I just have an accident with my car. They arrested me because I broke a light --
ROBERTSON: Street light.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Street light.
ROBERTSON: In an accident, a traffic accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Accident, yes.
ROBERTSON: And they arrested you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was arrested. I was arrested. But yes, they arrested me. Why? I don't know. I made all the money they want but they arrested me.
ROBERTSON: They still arrested you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One day. It was the worst one day -- very bad day in my life.
ROBERTSON: And how does today feel?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God gave me my rights back. We will have our rights back.
ROBERTSON: This is where the police used to keep their weapons in the armory here behind this steel door. Take a look at it now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here are the guns.
ROBERTSON: Here are the guns. You can see the guns.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's electric, electric.
ROBERTSON: Electric, electric guns for people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, for people.
ROBERTSON: So where are the guns?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Electric here.
ROBERTSON: Electric shots.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
ROBERTSON: So where are the guns now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The people take this.
ROBERTSON: The people have taken all these weapons. So everything from here, these guns that were still in the armory here, the electric weapons over here, they've all been taken.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And here.
ROBERTSON: That's what we're being told.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON: So I counted those weapons off the shelves there. And there were 20 AK-47s missing. That was in that armory. We went upstairs another armory, all the AKs missing from there, all the handguns missing. All the electronic taser guns that they had there, those were missing, too. So not only do you have all the records destroyed, the stations destroyed, the police scattered, the weapons are now out in the community. And although on the streets here we see people with iron bars and a few minutes ago I saw a group of men chasing down the street here, one of them armed with a big sword in his hand. Clearly those police weapons are out in the community. We haven't seen them being brought out to demonstrations. The demonstrators say that these are peaceful demonstrations. But when they stormed those police stations, there were gun fights with the police. That's where the high level of casualties came from. So the million dollar march planned just a few hours from now, again, like Friday that was so contentious has the potential here by the sheer numbers and the fact that at some point here the crowd may come into confrontation with the army has the potential to generate more flash points. The people that come --
SPITZER: All right. Nic, thank you so much. It's going to be exciting to hear what goes on in Alexandria tomorrow. No doubt we'll be with you again tomorrow as events unfold.
Coming up in Egypt, when the dust settles and the revolution is over, who will be the last man standing? One name may surprise you. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SPITZER: As Egypt teeters on the edge of revolution, the question persists -- who will take President Mubarak's place? Well, it just may be this man.
His name is Ayman Nour, and he's a powerful voice for change in Egypt. He's a lawyer, a journalist, a member of parliament and a founder of the secular Tomorrow (ph) Party. He ran against President Mubarak in 2005, coming in a distant second. Running against Mubarak is never a good idea. He was almost immediately imprisoned on what many called "trump-up charges." Here's what his wife, Gameela, who led the fight to free him had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GAMEELA ISMAIL, NOUR'S WIFE: Down to oppressors, down to dictators. Down to President Mubarak and to the Mubarak family and to Mubarak's regime. Down to oppression. Down to dictatorships.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SPITZER: Nour is a diabetic and his health worsened in prison. The Bush administration and others called for his release. Eventually he was freed on humanitarian grounds. Nour later spoke to the U.S. Congress by satellite pledging his support for freedom and democracy. He said this about terrorism. "It only hurts our children and your children." This weekend he took to the street, letting his voice be heard and demanding that Mubarak step down. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AYMAN NOUR, OPPOSITION LEADER (through translator): Our message today consists of one word -- leave. We're telling President Mubarak to leave. We do not want you. We cannot stand you or your regime. The Egyptian people no longer want the system. You have closed all doors to peaceful change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SPITZER: On Sunday, Nour joined his forces with other opposition parties. He seems positioned to lead the country to democracy if his support is strong enough and, of course, if Mubarak resigns.
When we come back, conspiracy theories abound in Egypt. But we're about to get the facts about one especially vicious rumor. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SPITZER: Tonight, a call for President Obama to stand up before the Arab world and, quote, "utter the f-word -- freedom." Harvard Professor Tarek Masoud sees the uprising in Egypt as a game changer for the U.S. He says it's time for the president to embrace this historic moment and change U.S. policy in the Middle East once and for all. Professor Masoud is a noted expert on Middle Eastern issues. He joins us now.
Welcome and thank you for being here.
TAREK MASOUD, HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT: Thanks for having me.
SPITZER: Before we get into the change you want in U.S. policy, you have said something rather dramatic. You have said that President Mubarak is behind the chaos in the streets in Cairo. Why do you think that is the case? And what evidence do you have for it?
MASOUD: Well, I think it's incontrovertible. This is just to give you some background, what's happening right now is that, you know, the regime pulled out the security forces from the streets. They're actually back now, but the regime had initially pulled the security forces out of the streets and opened up the prisons, allowed these thugs that the regime used to rely on to crack down on people during elections and to rough up difficult people, allowed them to run loose. And this is in order to create a kind of atmosphere of chaos.
Now, what --
SPITZER: What do they gain from chaos in the streets? MASOUD: They gain a yearning for order on the part of middle class people who are probably OK and happy with what the protesters are doing but are going to be much more desirous of order and calming things down if they find that there's chaos in the streets.
SPITZER: The argument for President Mubarak is, look, you may not be free but you're safe.
MASOUD: Right.
SPITZER: He's going to say here's the alternative and he's fomenting the chaos by letting folks out in the streets.
MASOUD: Right, right.
Now, the army is out. They army is out and the police are supposed to be back out. And so the chaos may have declined a little bit. I think this actually backfired because how did the Egyptian people respond? They responded by organizing sort of little civil defense units. They would, you know, set up little checkpoints on their street to make sure that if anybody is coming by who's unfamiliar they would ask them who are you? What are you doing here? They're tried to make sure that nobody could come and steal their property. So, in fact, this further increased I think a kind of cultural change in Egypt. Overnight, people are kind of taking responsibility for themselves and it decreased the legitimacy of the --
SPITZER: Out of chaos was formed a new civil society that people formed themselves.
MASOUD: I think, absolutely yes.
SPITZER: Here's the factual question that if true would be certainly pretty powerful.
MASOUD: Yes, yes.
SPITZER: The government itself opened the prisons. There's no question, a lot of thousands of prisoners --
MASOUD: Yes.
SPITZER: -- dangerous people were released.
MASOUD: Yes.
SPITZER: They opened those doors.
MASOUD: Well, yes. I mean, look, you're going to tell me what's your evidence for this. It's the nature of authoritarian regimes that things are done under the cover of darkness at night. But, you know, this is a regime that's been great at locking down the society for 30 years.
SPITZER: Right. MASOUD: How come all of a sudden when there are some street protests in Tahrir Square suddenly there's chaos?
SPITZER: Right.
MASOUD: I mean, it's clearly part of the regime's --
SPITZER: Look, there is no question thousands of criminals have been let loose and the prisons have been emptied.
MASOUD: Yes.
SPITZER: Amazing.
Now, coming back to your statement about President Obama where you have called upon him to be much more a clarion voice for freedom, what do you want him to say?
MASOUD: I think they're moving in the right direction. What they really need to say is that Mubarak has to go and that we need to effect a transition to democracy. We don't want to effect a transition to stability under some kind of military government reconstituted with some democratic decor. We really want a fundamental change in that government because that's what the people there want.
SPITZER: Let me play devil's advocate for a minute.
MASOUD: Yes. Sure.
SPITZER: Hasn't the president essentially been saying that without quite bringing the bludgeon down on an ally for 30 years, the moment he talks about a transition there can't be a transition if Mubarak isn't gone.
MASOUD: So who's the ally that you're worried about offending? The ally, is it Egypt or is it Mubarak? OK.
Here the ally is Mubarak and Mubarak is over. And you may be right. In fact, it may be completely possible that President Obama behind the scenes is telling Mr. Mubarak that he has to leave but the person on the street in Egypt doesn't see that. And that is the real problem here because the person on the street in Egypt is going to get his freedom and he's going to remember that we did not stand by him when he was fighting for it.
SPITZER: I tend to agree. I'm just trying to parse the argument a little bit.
MASOUD: Yes.
SPITZER: But I don't think that is the full scope of alternatives. He's worried about Saudi Arabia.
Now, there are other nations that have been allies of the United States and if they see the United States so quickly throw overboard President Mubarak, they may say wait a minute, this is no friend of ours.
MASOUD: OK. And you're worried about what exactly?
SPITZER: Well --
MASOUD: I mean, what alternative do they have to the United States? Look, I'm not telling President Obama that he needs to, you know, cause Arab leaders to be fearful. I'm certainly not saying to President Obama that he needs to go and tell Arab leaders you all need to democratize, because that would be going in the opposite end. It would be a little bit arrogant. But we could articulate a doctrine, right, where we support the people of any country. We're going to assume that the people -- that a government is supported by its people unless we get evidence otherwise. When we get evidence otherwise of the nature that we saw in Egypt, then we're going with the people.
SPITZER: But there is a role, is there not, for some degree of stability in a process such that you can have a President Mubarak who's been an integral part of making peace in the Middle East for many decades.
MASOUD: Yes.
SPITZER: That has been an affirmatively good thing.
MASOUD: Absolutely. You know, making peace in the Middle East for many decades is an affirmatively good thing. I'm not sure he's the only one who could have done it or if we need to have an authoritarian leader in order to perpetuate peace. In fact, I see the opposite.
SPITZER: I think it's certainly a fair question which raises then the question of who will fill the void. And as you look at the complex of politics within Egypt right now, who do you see stepping into the void created when President Mubarak, presumably at some point in the near term disappears.
MASOUD: So look, we're not -- clearly we don't want to create a complete vacuum. We don't want chaos. What we want is an orderly transition. Egypt is not Afghanistan. There's a constitution. There is actually a process that you can follow to get from where we are now to a real democracy.
SPITZER: Although there have not been free elections for quite some time.
MASOUD: Well, no. I mean, the last -- and this is part of why this regime has now fallen in 2010 in November and December. They had a terribly rigged election and then they crowed about it and that further inflamed the people. But the point is on the books, Egypt has got some pretty nice institutions and laws. It has some really bad ones, too, but you can use the nice ones to effect a process of Democratic change, constitutional amendment to finally move towards a different kind of society and democracy.
SPITZER: Are there existing political parties that could have a viable, participate in a viable democratic process now?
MASOUD: So that's the real question here is because I think what we've seen in these protests is that all of the momentum is not with the political parties. It's with these young people -- it's with the people themselves. Even the vaunted Muslim brotherhood which has had a role in these protests has definitely been, you know, behind the scenes. It's not been in the lead. So all of the organized forces that we used to spend a lot of time paying attention to and examining, they are less relevant. And the challenge now is we've got these young people and these people on the street. How do we -- you know, how do they express their preferences and negotiate with this regime or participate in this democratic transition in an organized way. That is the question.
SPITZER: All right, professor. We will have to continue this as the days ahead to see this unfold. It will no doubt be interesting. Thank you for coming by.
MASOUD: Thank you.
SPITZER: Thanks so much for joining me this evening. Hope to see you again tomorrow. Good night from New York.
"PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT" starts right now.
