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Parker Spitzer
Mayhem in Madison
Aired February 18, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KATHLEEN PARKER, HOST: Good evening, I'm Kathleen Parker.
ALI VELSHI, GUEST HOST: And I'm Ali Velshi sitting in for Eliot Spitzer. Eliot is off tonight.
We begin with a standoff in Wisconsin where any chance of finding a compromise is growing increasingly running slim. Passions are running high. Thousands of demonstrators march on the capitol for the fourth day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI (voice-over): What you're looking at is inside the state house in Madison, Wisconsin. The debate comes to this. Republicans say the bill called the "budget repair bill" is necessary to balance the state's books.
Democrats contend that the bill reverses decades of labor history in Wisconsin by taking away state employees collective bargaining rights.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PARKER: One Democratic state Senator, Chris Larson, from him we're about to here says the senators will return when and only when the governor is willing to listen. The governor's response? A throw down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can't participate in the democracy if you're not in the arena. The arena is in, not in Rockford, Illinois. The arena is in Madison, Wisconsin. It is time for those state senators to come home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PARKER: The issues have gone national. Meanwhile, as everybody from President Obama to Speaker John Boehner have weighed in and after the Republican Senate leader said I don't think there's any doubt. They are burning the bridge now. It's clear the standoff is not going to end any time soon.
VELSHI: What's at stake in Wisconsin? Here to explain the Republican point of view is one of the legislators who's been waiting two days for his missing colleagues to show up and vote. State Senator Glenn Grothman joins us now from Madison.
PARKER: Hello, Senator, and welcome. So tell us why do you think your Democratic colleagues felt the need to take such extreme action to call attention to the public budget repair bill?
GLENN GROTHMAN, (R) WISCONSIN STATE SENATE: Well, unfortunately, a lot of the Democrats are very close to the most extreme members of the teachers union and other public employees in the state of Wisconsin. They desperately want to raise taxes instead of bringing public employees in on the solution to this fiscal crisis.
VELSHI: Senator Grothman, there are things in this budget repair bill that will not raise revenue, but will affect the ability of these public service unions to function. Specifically, Senator Grothman, how do you help the deficit by making unions have to recertify every year, by not allowing unions to collect money after their members? How does that help affect your deficit?
GROTHMAN: There are a lot of public employees who strongly object to making these payments and it's completely unfair to these employees to be part of a system of which they are forced to pay, quite frankly, for the type of people who are organizing what is going on behind me right now.
PARKER: That sounds like a pretty rowdy crowd back there. How does that feel? Have you been through something like this before?
GROTHMAN: Well, actually, I think most of these people are very nice if you talk to them on an individual basis, but right now they are being riled up a little bit and that's what is going on. But I enjoy talking to these people as I with any of my other constituents and I think if you talk to them on an individual basis, many of them will agree we have to change the current system.
PARKER: How long do you think this standoff is going to last?
GROTHMAN: I hope that we can wrap it up sometime in the next week. After all, the state of Wisconsin is in a budget crisis and we do have thousands of people here today. There are hundreds and thousands of people around the state who will agree with us.
PARKER: Senator, if this is a collective bargaining issue, why were certain organizations exempted, such as law enforcement and fire and then only others were included?
GROTHMAN: Governor Walker felt that we may have a problem here in the United States or a problem here in Wisconsin regarding public order and the importance of public safety officers at this time has never been greater. We've seen that in the state capital the last couple of days.
VELSHI: Senator, does that have more to do with the fact that law enforcement and firemen showed greater support for the governor in the election? Because that's what some of the analysis is saying.
GROTHMAN: They are absolutely wrong. The Wisconsin Profession Police Association fought Governor Walker, have made me their number one opponent in the state Senate. The firemen's union around the states -- close to Republicans. There was one local police union who was in favor of Walker, but that was about it.
PARKER: Senator, if you had a message for the missing Democrats, what would it be?
GROTHMAN: Well, I wish they would come back. It would be nice to wrap things up. I know their own staff is under a lot of pressure in the building and they are getting paid $50,000 a year do the people's work and not to mention, if they call the average guy in their districts, they'll find that they want them to go back and vote as well.
PARKER: All right, state Senator Glenn Grothman, Republican of Wisconsin. Thank you so much for joining us and for putting up with or enjoying, however you want to put it, the commotion in the background. Thank you very much.
GROTHMAN: Always glad to talk to you folks.
PARKER: Now we turn to the other side of this divide.
VELSHI: State Senator Chris Larson is one of those 14 Democrats in hiding right now. He says he and the other Wisconsin lawmakers won't come back until Governor Scott Walker is willing to hear from the teachers, students and workers protesting the governor's proposed budget.
All we know about Chris Larson's whereabouts is that he is across the state line and out of the reach of Wisconsin state patrol. He joins us now from that undisclosed location by phone.
Senator Larson, thank you for joining us.
CHRIS LARSON, (D) WISCONSIN STATE SENATOR (via telephone): Thank you very much for having me.
VELSHI: All right, look, this is officially a standoff and I have to say to a lot of people it's just a little bit weird because at the same time we're watching things going in other parts of the world where the fight is over rights much more fundamental.
You've gotten yourself into a pickle here, you and the other senators by getting out of the state and by not going back for the vote. What is the end game here? What is it that you think is going to happen?
LARSON: Right, well, right now the big issue is we're waiting for Walker to come back on the table. So we had to step away from the situation and we hope that the governor takes this time actually to listen to the people who are speaking and pay attention to what the thousands of people who are turning out are having to say.
What they don't want is their rights trampled on, their rights to organize as a union and they don't want this debt to flow to the middle class in Wisconsin.
PARKER: All right, Senator, I know everyone is curious to know where you are all and I know you're not going to say, but are you and your colleagues together and what are you doing? I mean, are you sitting around and playing chess or jeopardy and have you had contact with the governor?
LARSON: We have tried to reach out to the governor, but unfortunately we have not been able to talk to him. We - some of us are - we're all out of the state. I can say that. Some of us are together. We're not all in the same place. We've never all been in the same place at the same time.
So, yes, we are still south of the border. We're still waiting to hear from the governor and from the legislature to see if they are actually willing to listen. Unfortunately, what we've heard is that yesterday they were kind of being polite about it. They were - they kind of took jams at us and today, we heard they were stepping up the level where there were state patrols outside of some of the senators, Democratic senator's homes.
So it seems that they are paying more attention trying to figure out how can they jam this thing through than how they can come to the table and find a compromise that works for everybody.
VELSHI: Senator, let me ask you this, though. You make a compelling case. There are some who are making a compelling case that there are elements of the budget repair bill that appear to not have any financial benefit, but just appear to be designed to damage the unions.
Let's just take that at face value for a moment. At some point you and your colleagues have to take at face value that there are 14 of you and 19 Republicans that the voters of Wisconsin voted in.
Do you sit around and say that at some point you and the voters of Wisconsin have got to face the music that as unpalatable as this may seem to the public service unions and the teachers, it is what it is?
LARSON: We had an election, but a democracy doesn't just happen on election day for those 13 hours. Democracy happens every day. Actually, a lot of the people who came out and spoke, there was a good number of people who said, if I would have known that they were going to pull this crap, I would have never voted for them.
This was not something on the table during the election, this extreme agenda. People did not expect it to happen and so I think when we elect leaders to work with everybody in our state, we do not allow dictators to run roughshod over the minority. In our democracy in America, majority does rules but minority is always heard. That's the way our democracy is constructed and to do anything otherwise is not American.
PARKER: Well, Senator, how long do you figure you and your colleagues can go on? What's your strategy, ultimately? LARSON: Well, until they take these measures off the table, we've been surprised by the outpouring of support and as long as that public support continues, we will continue to be motivated to stand with them.
Each day has been more historic than the day before it in Madison and I don't know, if you have - you've seen the pictures or video of what's going there, but it's unlike anything anybody that has ever been seen in our state's history and we're hearing there's even more people on the way coming in and people really want to speak up and be heard on this.
And until that -- those people are satisfied and those people are heard, we'll be standing with them in spirit just across the border.
VELSHI: State Senator Chris Larson, thank you for being with us.
LARSON: Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
PARKER: Up next, dozens are dead as clashes intensify between protesters and security forces across the Middle East. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Tonight, protests and bloody clashes throughout the Middle East. Thousands took to the streets across the region today as that wave of anti-government demonstrations continues.
In Egypt, thousands packed Cairo's Tahrir Square declaring a day of victory. They are celebrating one week since the ouster of President Hosni Mubarak. Meanwhile, the ruling military council today is calling for an end to protests claiming they are disrupting the economy and preventing people from working.
Next door in Libya meanwhile, at least 20 people killed, some 200 injured as tens and thousands rallied today hoping to topple President Moammar Gadhafi. He's longest ruling president in the Arab world. State run TV is countering those demonstrations by broadcasting pro- government protests, which is what you're seeing here.
In Yemen, dozens wounded and at least one dead when pro government gangs clashed with anti-government demonstrators. Supporters of President Ali Abdullah Saleh used rocks, daggers, and sticks to attack a crowd of demonstrators in the capital city of Sanaa.
PARKER: And in Bahrain where the military is controlling the streets tonight, confrontations between security forces and protesters resulted in several deaths and dozens of injuries. The violence broke out on what had been a peaceful day of demonstrations.
Earlier today, President Obama urged the president of Bahrain, Libya and Yemen to show restraint in responding to peaceful protests. Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is in Bahrain tonight. Nic, what is the latest on the ground? NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the violent eruptions have tapered off. There was a confrontation where the protesters moved towards an area. The police had barricaded off because the protesters moved close. The police fired over their heads, according to some witnesses.
Some witnesses say shots were fired directly at the crowd that's what they say killed the people, but the protesters moved again towards the police. The police fired tear gas and chasing them away. We were there with the protesters as tear gas literally flying over our heads and red hot canisters lying in the road.
Everyone running in fear away from the police chase down the road, but now the police have a much bigger security corridor. They have chased the protesters away. There were about 1,000 protesters earlier.
Now there are just small groups, perhaps a hundred here, perhaps a few dozen in other places several blocks away from the police. So the situation now is much calmer than it was a few hours earlier. The situation does seem to be that the police and the army here have restored security to that area right now.
VELSHI: Nic, whatever security is restored there, it's going to be tenuous. This is a country that has had tension for some time, different than that in Egypt. A lot of it has been sectarian. You got a Sunni government majority Shiite population.
You've got influences of Saudi Arabia, which is connected by a causeway in Iran that thought of Bahrain as a state, an Iranian state at one point. Where are these tensions lying now? The government may have things under control, but does this feel like a sectarian proxy battle going on?
ROBERTSON: It doesn't feel like a proxy battle going on just yet. The dynamic is still evolving here. I was talking to a government official a little earlier who really isn't allowed to go on camera, go on the record either and speak his mind. But what he was telling me was that the government is shocked by what has happened.
They are caught off guard. Meetings are going on late into the night right now. They really don't quite know how to handle this. This is a hard (inaudible) in the government and a much more moderate liberal line in the government and it's not clear yet which side is going to come out ahead.
But the dynamic on the streets is taking shape and that is the protesters are becoming more angry. They're becoming more used to getting in confrontation with the police. They know what the battle on the streets looks like, feels like, smells like. They are learning how to fight it.
It seems that we're going to see more of these spontaneous protesters taking on the police and today we had pro-government demonstrators in the streets it would seem that this state almost inevitable unless the government can pull some kind of negotiation out of the bag. There would be confrontation between different groups of protesters.
That's something that Bahrain has never had to deal with. It doesn't seem proxy between Iran and Saudi Arabia at this time. One can see how the factions could develop that way. We are hearing murmurings of outside interference, of games being played here, not in Bahrain's interest by other countries. But at the moment it's the street battles and tensions that are leading the way.
VELSHI: Remarkable reporting, Nic Robertson. Remarkable images coming through from Bahrain. Nic, thanks very much for joining us. We'll continue to follow this story with you.
All right. So is real change going to come from a population that is hungry for reform and can the U.S. handle its conflicting interest in that region.
PARKER: Joining us here tonight is someone with decades of firsthand experience on the ground there. Marc Ginsberg is the former U.S. ambassador to Morocco under President Clinton. He was also a key adviser on Middle East policy to President Carter.
Ambassador, thank you so much for joining us.
MARC GINSBERG, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO MOROCCO: Good to be with you.
PARKER: So President Obama and several officials have been urging restraint in Bahrain. Is that the right response or what else? What should the U.S. be doing?
GINSBERG: Well, I think the important thing is that the U.S. at this point in time has to at least stand for something because the demonstrators are certainly uncertain about where the United States is trying to navigate because on the one hand we've got to navigate between our strategic interests in the region.
After all in Bahrain, for example, it's the center of our naval presence in the entire Persian Gulf, the Fifth Fleet is stationed there. Of course, we have strategic interests throughout the region. The question is, how do we balance - how's the Obama administration balance its strategic interest.
Israel, the Fifth Fleet, counterterrorism against the hearts and minds that grip the campaign officials who were now on the White House serving the president who want to stand for something idealistic through the president's speech they delivered in Cairo.
That's been the real delicate balance in that and I don't think whether you're a Republican or Democrat, can you really navigate that very easily given what has taken place.
VELSHI: Given your experience in the region, you could help us navigate on thing. The Arab world is very vague and complex and it's not homogenous except that these movements in Tunisia, in Egypt, in Bahrain. They are actually motivated by the collapsed of the social contract I guess between Arabs and their leaders that entitle them to a good life or a prosperous life. That has started to come apart and that's where these agitations for democracy or at least for being heard better are coming from.
GINSBERG: Absolutely, Ali. You know, in all of the years that I've spent in the Middle East, it's clearly been a society after society even if they don't understand each other linguistically. Moroccan doesn't understand a Jordanian.
Most people don't understand how diverse the Arab world is. It's almost like the English and the Americans, we're united by a common language, but we don't even speak the common language to each other at times.
Given the fact in the Arab world, there's such cultural differences and yet, the one thing that has been clear is that the people in that region, the young people in that region have watched a globalizing world pass them by.
They have not benefited from what they see is the connectivity that has brought countries together that have prospered. They see autocratic regimes basically carving off the riches of the country to put in a package of a small field. None of this is trickling down.
PARKER: You have a television production company and you have -- you've been building programming for the Arab world and they help to see America in a certain light. How are they viewing us during these demonstrations?
GINSBERG: You know, it's one of the great challenges is that we have to put ourselves at times in the eyes of young Arabs who are looking at the United States. They see us as on the one hand supporting ideals that they aspire to, but not walking the walk that we are committed to have done by offering tangible support for democracy and they do not trust us.
To fulfill the aspirations that they themselves believe they want. This revolution in Egypt occurred in spite of all that we stand for in the Middle East. It occurred because people were looking for models, ideals, but not from the U.S. government. The U.S. government was largely AWOL from all of these.
VELSHI: The U.S. government's policy in the Middle East has been, at best and most complementary inconsistent. Is this an opportunity for the U.S. to start to apply a more consistent policy to say U.S. interest in the Middle East are congruent with the interest of the people on the ground in the Middle East.
GINSBERG: When you sweep aside all of what we are seeing on TV today and you say to yourself, what follows tomorrow. It's all about economics.
VELSHI: Right. GINSBERG: Whichever way you look at it, it's all about jobs, aspirations, teaching education and what these young people want for themselves to be able to compete with their brethren who are better connected, better educated and have better jobs elsewhere.
It all comes down as a result of what I've always said ever since I live in the region as an ambassador. Jobs, how does the United States bring American companies that have gone to Chile and South Korea and elsewhere, and teach young Arabs the vocational skills that they need to compete in the globalizing world.
If we can stop the rhetoric and stop talking about what's happening today and start thinking about not that the American taxpayer has to fund this, but in effect set the stage for the type of economic reforms that would make these countries really attractive places for companies to grow and prosper. We would be rewarded for decades to come if we did that.
PARKER: Well, it doesn't matter what the question is. The answer seems to be jobs.
GINSBERG: Yes, absolutely.
PARKER: All right, Ambassador Marc Ginsberg.
GINSBERG: Jobs is job one.
PARKER: Ambassador Marc Ginsberg, thanks so much.
GINSBER: Thanks so much.
VELSHI: Coming up, the budget debate on Capitol Hill gets ugly as Republicans savaged the president's most prize programs. Congressman Anthony Wiener weighs in when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Tonight, a sludge fest on Capitol Hill. Tempers flared today as the House continued to do battle over this GOP plan to slash over $60 billion from this year's budget, the 2011 budget.
When the debate turned to President Obama's priced health care overhaul, wow, things got downright ugly. It started when Congressman Steve King, a Republican offered an amendment to defund the president's health care plan.
PARKER: And that's when New York Democrat Anthony Wiener sprung into action ripping into Representative King and his GOP colleagues. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ANTHONY WEINER, (D) NEW YORK: Let us have this debate because if it is the moment, if lightning is striking, if it is chilly in hell, then maybe this is the moment we've been waiting for. The Republican majority is going to start legislating. Please, praise God, maybe this is the moment. So I think the gentleman is correct. He is not legislating in this bill because it's impossible for him to do so because they simply don't know how.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PARKER: Wow. Well, apparently Weiner's argument was convincing. King's amendment was dismissed, though a similar effort to defund health care reform later passed and the Republican drive to cut billions more continues full steam. A final vote is possible possibly tonight. All right, Congressman Weiner is on Capitol Hill tonight and he joins us with the latest. Welcome, Congressman.
WEINER: Thank you.
PARKER: Well, that was quite a colorful display there. The vote to defund health care is a big blow, of course, to the Democrats and not to mention the president and this after cuts in school reform and the SEC and the EPA heating subsidies for the poor, have Republicans won the battle here?
WEINER: Well, I don't know. The president said that he's going to veto this bill. That exchange I was speaking somewhat tongue in cheek referring to the idea the Republicans have now been in power for a few months and they have yet to tell us exactly what it is they want to do.
Every day they come to work and they talk about another thing they want to defund, but they don't seem to have any affirmative vision. But the fact is that everything we're doing here is really just a dance because the president said he is vetoing his bill as he should.
It's simply irresponsible to cut air traffic controllers by 20 percent, cut aid for people trying to get energy assistance for their homes cut, Pell Grants for middle income college students. It just doesn't make much sense. So the president say he's going to veto it and I think he should.
VELSHI: Congressman Weiner, you're a compassionate guy. You always are. You want to make your point. The bottom line is where are we going with this? Because you and your Democratic colleagues want some things to happen in the bill. Your Republican colleagues want something else to happen with this bill. Are you going to come to some agreement on the floor of the House of Representatives? Because it just sounds like you're batting heads.
WEINER: Well, the real problem is the Republicans have a problem with schizophrenia in their own caucus. I think, we are going to end up doing what they in '95, which is shutting down the government, because, frankly, they have this core of their caucus that doesn't want to have any kind of reasonable, rational discussion. They just want to slash and burn and take a meat ax to the budget. If the Republicans can say, listen, we want to continue to fund the government. We want to look for cuts. Two of the amendments that I've offered to cut things were accepted. Two more were going to be considered. There is reasonable ground for reasonable people, but this is not a reasonable bunch governing the house of representatives, right now.
PARKER: Well, Congressman, even if you do - if you don't agree on a bill, you know, as Ali said, and, then, you're going home for their long President's Day weekend, you know, is it possible for you all to reach some kind of resolution before that?
WEINER: Yes, but the problem returns, Kathleen. So, the problem of the Republicans are having trouble getting it together amongst themselves. You remember what we've been through. We went through a week of dysfunction. Their leadership announces $30 billion in cuts. They have an insurrection in their caucus. They want to do 100 billion. So, what do they come back with? A 20 percent reduction to air traffic controllers. I mean, that seems pretty crazy to me.
Now, they're talking about shutting down the government. Well, tell the troops fighting in Afghanistan that we are not going to pay their bills, at a certain point. I'm not sure the Taliban will understand that. The Republicans won in 2010. Took control of the House of Representatives. Now, they're in charge. They've got a government. They've shown, from almost day one, a fundamental inability to make the trains run on time, to make things work. And, now, there's no reason to expect that they will be able to pull it together. They are, even, saber rattling about shutting down government. I think, we've seen this movie, before, the last time their --
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: But Congressman Weiner, so are you. So are you. You just said it yourself. I mean, the fact is, the more people who talk about shutting down government, the more likely it becomes the kind of thing someone is going to do. I mean, I think, we all respect the passion that you bring to every argument on the floor, and we respect that people that go to Washington and do this. But you guy are not headed for a compromise, and American voters told you in November, they need government to do business.
WEINER: Hold on. First of all, you asked me a question to speculate on what I thought was going to happen, and, then, I answered it, and you say I'm contributing to it. No, I'm just trying to give you what I think.
VELSHI: But you said -- Congressman Weiner, you said they're saber rattling about a government shutdown. So are you.
WEINER: You asked me what I thought would happen. All I can tell you is with Republican leadership -- you put Anthony Weiner in charge of this government, you'll be doing a lot better. But that's not the option we have at this moment.
You're asking me to comment on whether or not John Boehner and his crew, who came to Washington on a platform of everything that they are against, but now are being asked, what are you in favor of? I don't believe, standing here, that the Republicans know what they are in favor of. So, you want me to handicap whether they will shut down Congress? The last time they took over Congress, that what they did. There are ways that we can sit and reason together, but that presumes there's leadership in the House caucus - the House Republican caucus, and I'm not seeing it.
VELSHI: I do like the point you said of Anthony Weiner running the place, things would get done differently. Anthony Weiner, what a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for being with us.
PARKER: Thanks, Anthony.
WEINER: Thank you. Take care, guys.
VELSHI: Coming up, in Wisconsin, some politicians are running for the hills. What they may not know is that they're part of a great American tradition. We'll tell you why, on the other side.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PARKER: Politicians on the lam. We've seen it in Wisconsin, where those Democrats are hiding out, to block the Republican governor's agenda. It's high stakes political poker, and we don't know who is going to blink, first, but this sort of gamesmanship is nothing new. When it comes to political poker, nobody does it like Texas. Back in 2003, some Texas Democrats -- is it always Democrats? They walked into the state house in Austin. They were trying to block redistricting plan, and that's when it really got interesting. The Republicans called out the Texas rangers, no, not the baseball team, the real Texas rangers, to haul them back to Austin. But the Democrats galloped back off to their hideout in the hole in the wall, otherwise known as a hotel, in Oklahoma. They stayed there and called the Republican's bluff and came home believing they had won.
VELSHI: Republican Governor Rick Perry had other ideas. He started wheeling and dealing to ram the legislation through. Eleven Democrats saw him and raised him. And they took off, again, this time, for New Mexico. They held out for a month, but they missed their spouses, and their kids, so they came home, and the legislation passed.
Amazingly, the same thing happened in Texas, in 1979. Twelve Democrats, known as "The Killer Bees", took off for the Mexican border to prevent a vote. After five days on the run, they turned themselves in. But, to answer your question, Kathleen, it isn't always Democrats who cut and run.
Listen to this, in 1840, young Abe Lincoln was a member of the Illinois legislature. The Democrats wanted to kill the state bank. Lincoln was determined to save it. So, he tried to leave the state house in Springfield, before they could take the vote. The Democrats locked the doors, guaranteeing a quorum, and that is when the future 16th president of the United States jumped out of a window and ran away. Who knew honest Abe was starting a great American tradition?
PARKER: We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PARKER: He was nicknamed a budget guru while still in his early 30's. Now, David Stockman, President Reagan's budget director, is weighing in on President Obama's recent budget. He and Eliot had surprisingly frank conversation about the president's plan for 2012, and Stockman was less than impressed. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID STOCKMAN, PRESIDENT REAGAN'S BUDGET DIRECTOR: This is, really, a new low in fiscal cowardice, and, in legal terms, you can say that it's, kind of, reckless negligence. We have a massive problem in this country, and they haven't addressed any of the parts of the budget that can make a difference. Now, let me set aside the flim-flam.
ELIOT SPITZER: Wait a minute. Isn't he cutting $1.1 trillion. And you're calling $1.1 trillion flim-flam? Is this what I'm hearing?
STOCKMAN: Yes, I am because over 10 years, the budget proposes to spend $46 billion, all right? So, 1.1 is 2 percent. Out 10 years, no one can forecast anything, where it counts, in 2012, 2013, 2014. There's something, like, 2.7, three trillion of deficits built in, and they cut less than 7 percent of that deficit.
ELIOT SPITZER: So, what you're saying is, the one-year deficit, that we have, is bigger than all of the savings he's trying to do over ten years?
STOCKMAN: That's exactly right. If you set aside the flim flam, these numbers, or they claim, you know, that nondefense discretionary is as low as it's been since Eisenhower, let's address that. Every year, Congress takes more and more spending that is discretionary, reclassifies it as mandatory, and, now, they're saying that they've got --
SPITZER: OK, slow down for a second. You talked about nondefense discretionary spending, which is where both sides of -- the Republicans and the Democrats, are trying to focus all their cuts.
STOCKMAN: If you're not willing to address the entitlements, $1.5 trillion, just for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, if you're not willing to address defense and security, $900 billion, still.
SPITZER: Each year?
STOCKMAN: This year 900 billion, and he's, actually, increased a little bit. And I want to put something in perspective that, I think, would be really relevant. This budget for the eight years ahead, Obama is proposing to spend $7.5 trillion on defense and security. Do you know what? That is three trillion more in constant dollars, current year dollars, than Ronald Reagan spent during the eight years of his administration. SPITZER: Let me make this harsh and, in my view, legitimate criticism, that you're keeping on the president's budget. At least, let me make it bipartisan.
STOCKMAN: Yes. Sure.
SPITZER: Because what we've heard on the other side of the aisle, frankly, is no better. They are sending - they being Paul Ryan, that the budget was that the Republican party saying, we'll cut $100 billion from nondefense discretionary. But, again, it is all from one little area. And we have -- Charlotte will put it up on the screen. Nondefense discretionary is about 12.5 percent of the total budget. The rest of it, they are, basically, saying, we don't want to look at. Why is that?
STOCKMAN: When you look at Medicare and Medicaid, seven, $800 billion and there's massive political lobbies, the doctors, the pharmaceutical companies, the scooter chair manufacturers, they're constantly pushed back, in terms of any type of change that might save money, and both parties continue to insist that we don't need to bite the bullet on these big issues. We have to raise taxes. The president hasn't said anything about that, other than a few loopholes.
SPITZER: OK. What's that? Say that again. I want to hear -- I want the world to hear President Reagan's budget director, a conservative, someone who has died in -- conservative as they come, and I don't think I'm saying that critically. You say they have to raise taxes?
STOCKMAN: Absolutely. There is no way around the revenue shortfall, that we have, given the massive size of government that neither party wants to cut.
SPITZER: Let me ask you a different question. It seems, to me, that by focusing all of the cuts on nondefense discretionary, are we not, also, focusing the cuts in the area that at one level is, perhaps, most important? In other words, if you do believe that the model of economic competitiveness for the United States, down the road, is out innovate, out educate, and be more creative, it is going to emerge from education spending and, yet, that's where all of these cuts will be congregated, again.
STOCKMAN: Well, he's not cutting education. And, frankly, I think, I would dispute that one a little bit. Federal, state, and local, we're spending $1 trillion a year on education. 7 percent on GDP, double, in real terms, of what is we did in 1990. We have plenty of resources that are not being used, effectively. What we don't have is jobs. We have -- today, we have seven million less jobs than we had in October 1999. And I want to restate that. Seven million less than in October 1999. So, our problem is in the private sector, it's in excess costs, it's in becoming more competitive, and we're not going to solve the problem by trying to borrow our way to prosperity, which is what this budget is doing.
SPITZER: Well, let me state this at a different level, as well. It seems to me, when it comes to understanding why we have these huge deficits, we have one, the massive spending in the programs you've defined, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and defense. That's one piece of it.
STOCKMAN: Yes.
SPITZER: Two, we are fighting two wars, right now.
STOCKMAN: Right.
SPITZER: Three, we have these tax cuts that have eviscerated our revenue base. And, four, we had a recession. Now, those four factors. Two of them are going to disappear in the long run, the wars and the recession. The other two, we're simply not confronting them. Right? I mean --
STOCKMAN: I agree with that. And I, also, would suggest, that the deficit will remain above $1 trillion a year, even when the recession goes away, which it already has, from a statistical point of view, and when the two wars go away. I think, our problem, today, is that they are dream walking, down there. Why are we spending more, today, for defense and security, than Ronald Reagan did at the height of the cold war? You know, that's a good question.
SPITZER: I'm absolutely with you on 98 percent of what you said. But I want to ask you a political question, now. There is the Bowles- Simpson report, there are some senators, Senators Warner and Chambliss, who, I think, word is, they are trying to build a political coalition around that sensible set of cuts and revenue enhancements. Do you think there is, at this moment, the political will, anywhere in Washington, to make that a reality?
STOCKMAN: I don't see any sign of it, because the White House is totally capitulated to its constituencies is pushing middle class tax cuts, again, which we can't afford. It totally whiffed on Social Security because of the political pressure. The Republicans are lined up vociferously against any kind of revenue increase, even the minor loophole closings, that there are in this budget.
SPITZER: Right.
STOCKMAN: So, when we have revenue off the table, when we have entitlements off the table, when we have an administration that can't even get his act together on defense. This is a left of center administration, and they are spending all of this money on defense. It doesn't give me very much confidence that anything is going to materialize. I think, it's going take a great shock, a great dislocation, in the global bond market, before we finally face the issue.
SPITZER: All right, David, thank you for that very encouraging assessment, the way we are. Always good to chat with you, nonetheless. Thanks for being here.
STOCKMAN: Thank you.
PARKER: Coming up, where does Ferris Bueller's former teacher stand on the fight of our teachers benefits, in Wisconsin? We'll ask Ben Stein right after this.
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VELSHI: In just two weeks from today, the federal government's temporary budget runs out. Now, if President Obama doesn't sign one, before then, the entire government could shut down. So, now, with the White House and Republican leadership playing this high level game of chicken, whose job is it to break this impasse?
PARKER: Here, now, to give us his unique perspective is a close friend of the show, economist Ben Stein. He's, also, the author of "The Little Book Of Bullet-Proof Investing", dos and don'ts to protect Your life. Welcome, Ben.
BEN STEIN, AUTHOR: Honor in being here, of course.
PARKER: All right. Well, look, tell us how likely it is going to be that the government is going to shut down?
STEIN: I would hope that it would be 100 percent unlikely. I don't like playing these games of chicken. I don't think my fellow Republicans are doing the smart or responsible or patriotic thing, right now, by, even, threatening it a little bit. I don't want the U.S. bond rating to be cut below AAA. I think, this is not the right way to play this game.
VELSHI: Ben, whose job is to break that impasse? You say, you don't like the way your Republican colleagues are doing it. The White House is not -- is, sort of, digging in on the other side. Who is supposed to break this? Who is supposed to say, let's find a solution?
STEIN: Well, they have to get together and do it as -- in a compromised way. But I don't think the Republicans should even be threatening to not raise the debt ceiling. I don't think that should be part of our Republican arsenal ideals. I don't think Dwight Eisenhower would appreciate or approve of that. I don't think Abraham Lincoln would appreciate or approve that. I don't think Teddy Roosevelt would appreciate or approve of that. I think we should do it by a straight up way of voting on various budget cuts and not by threatening Armageddon.
PARKER: Well, Ben, the Republicans don't even think that's the way it should be done. And John Boehner said, a while ago, he said, look, you know, the problem is, a lot of these Tea Party new people don't understand how things work, and we've got to talk to them about how bad it would be to not raise the debt ceiling, and, now, he's changed his tune. What do you think is going on there?
Well, I love the Tea Party. I've spoken at their entities -- their events, rather, and I know a lot of their people, and, I think, they're great people. But, I think, they have to understand this is not a childish game that is being played here. This is deadly serious. If the government shuts down, if there is the slightest question about the credibility of the U.S. debt, if we have to raise interest rates, dramatically, on what we pay on the national debt, it's going to cost so much more from any little bit of savings they can get by playing this chicken game, the nuclear standoff game, over the extending the debt limit, it's just not a good idea. I bless the Tea Party. I love them. But let's try some alternative to that Armageddon scenario.
VELSHI: But blessing the Tea Party, the problem is, these impasses come when you look at things in this black and white fashion. And I worry, Ben, that, you know, the federal budget impasse is something most people don't pay attention to, until we're talking on March 3rd or 4th, about an impending shut down of government, then, it gets everybody's attention. But what people are talking about is this trickle down to state's budgets, which we're seeing across the country, and, of course, we're seeing plenty out in Wisconsin, in a particularly confrontational way. What's your thought about how we're going to see state budgets fairing, as a result of this black and white approach to budget cutting?
STEIN: That crunching sound you're going to hear all over the country, that you're hearing about in Madison, Wisconsin, is a sound of American taxpayers crunching down on the benefits, perks, and pay they have bestowed upon public employees over the years. The taxpayers are just not going to put up with it anymore. I am seeing -- we're going to see it in California, in a big way. We're already seeing it in California. Wisconsin happens to be an extremely militant state where the teachers' unions are concerned. The taxpayers just don't want to keep paying public service employees more than they get paid, themselves. I, myself, am a union member. I sympathize very much with the public service workers. I've been a public service worker. I love teachers. I love firemen and policemen, firefighters, police people. But I don't want to see Republican lawmakers houses getting stormed. I don't want to see that kind of illegal behavior, that kind of threatening behavior.
The basic theme here is, we have a real problem. Let's handle it like grown-ups and not like spoiled children the way the Tea Party hard liners are planning to do in Congress, and the goons from some of the teachers unions, or, maybe, the friends of theirs, are planning to handle it, and are handling, in Wisconsin. Let's handle it in a gentlemanly-lady-like way.
VELSHI: I hear you. I hear you, Ben. You know what? I hear where you're coming from, but that's 30,000 people protesting in Wisconsin. We've gotten past the goons. We're -- this has, clearly, got some kind of popular grass roots support. How do you deal with that? This is --
STEIN: Well, Ali, 30,000 is a trivial percentage of the population of the state of Wisconsin. And I'm not talking about the people down and standing in the streets. I 100 percent believe that. I have demonstrated, very actively, in many, many demonstrations in Washington, D.C. I love demonstrations, but I'm talking about the people that are storming the legislature, keeping them from doing business, storming the homes, and terrifying the families of the Republican lawmakers. That is outrageous behavior, and that I consider goon-like behavior. Marching in the streets, shouting your slogans, holding up your placard, calling your representative, that's the way it should be. Storming people's homes, frightening them, that is outrageous behavior. That is just totally unacceptable.
PARKER: Well, Ben, speaking of grown-up behavior. Everybody in Washington keeps talking about this. The adults have to step up to the plate and do their job. What's do you -- what's your take on the Obama's budget, on the one hand, and on the GOP budget, on the other. Anybody being a grownup?
STEIN: I have a very simple idea. Don't cut defense. We're in the most dangerous period this country has been in since the end of the cold war. Don't cut defense. I don't think it's right to cut one penny from military families, or even make them pay eight or ten dollars a month more for insurance costs. Not one penny should come out of their pockets. On the other hand, I do think, it's wrong for a person that is as well to do as I am, or as well to do as you -- well not - you're probably not over 65, should get the same Medicare benefits that a person who is a retired factory worker should get. There are going to be some means testing of benefits. Medicare, by the way, is already means as a -- and I pay a large insurance premium. It should be even larger. There is going to behave to be tax increase on well-to-do people. There's no way around it. You can postpone it. You can whine about it and cry about it. But if the goal is to balance the budget, we have to raise taxes on wealthy people. That's got to be done. It's -- maybe not tomorrow, but it's got to be done.
VELSHI: Ben Stein, good to talk to you. Thank you for being with us.
PARKER: Thanks, Ben.
STEIN: Thank you, thank you.
VELSHI: Kathleen, it has been a real pleasure spending a couple of days here with you and ending the week here. Thanks for having me.
PARKER: Ali, thank you for coming and please come back any time. You are welcome any time.
VELSHI: I would absolutely like that.
PARKER: All right, great.
VELSHI: Have a great weekend and thank you for watching. Piers Morgan tonight, starts right now.
