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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
The Disappearance of Natalee Holloway; Murder Investigation for 12- Year-Old Girl; Charlottesville`s Heather Heyer Memorial; Teen Girls Plot Mass Murder; Police Pursuit in California. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired August 16, 2017 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[20:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST (voice-over): Is it the breakthrough they`ve been looking for 12 years later?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This one piece of information that maybe somebody had overlooked or...
BANFIELD: The mysterious disappearance of Natalee Holloway.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought I was going to fly to Aruba and I was going to get her and bring her home.
BANFIELD: After a decade of false hopes, dead ends and sheer torment for her family...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It could be huge. It could be huge in helping us find Natalee.
BANFIELD: ... has her own father solved the case?
DAVE HOLLOWAY, FATHER: Twelve years, and we still have nothing until now.
BANFIELD: In a new documentary on Oxygen, he and a PI reveal the stunning evidence they found.
HOLLOWAY: This lead, we have a person who states that he was directly involved in disposing of Natalee`s remains.
BANFIELD: Telling NBC`s "Today" show how close they are to an answer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We took those remains and had those remains tested.
BANFIELD: But is it Natalee after all these years, the teen whose spring break odyssey ended in tragedy? Natalee`s father joins us live.
It happens all the time. Our kids are at home while we`re at work. They text us they`re OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At the age of 12, seeing her life just snatched away like that, it`s devastating for us.
BANFIELD: But something happened after 12-year-old Joanna (ph) checked in with her mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really not going to describe the scene.
BANFIELD: A knock at the door, then a sickening murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cause of death is not readily apparent.
BANFIELD: Who would do this to an innocent little girl?
They will forever live in infamy, the Columbine killers. Now two girls who hailed them as heroes reveal what took them to that troubled place.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I started watching a lot of documentaries about, like, Columbine and everything.
BANFIELD: Guilty of planning Columbine 2.0, a secret look into their worlds and their minds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she told you, Let`s shoot up the school, and you were, like, yes, I`m down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
BANFIELD: What made them tick? And more importantly, what can their journals and confessions tell us about the classmates of our kids?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There would be taking people down with me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BANFIELD: Good evening, everybody. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.
Twelve years is a very long time. Think back, YouTube was brand-new, no one had ever heard of Twitter, and Michael Jackson was alive. In fact,
that year, 2005, he was found not guilty of child molestation.
And it was also that year Natalee Holloway went missing after a going on a graduation class trip to Aruba. Cable news was simply transfixed by the
mystery. And it never really went away because despite dozens of twists and turns in the case, suspicious people, arrests, even a prosecution in a
related case, Natalee was never found, and neither was her killer.
Plenty of people suspected this man, Joran Van Der Sloot. Even police thought he might have had a role in her disappearance. But because he was
the last person Natalee was seen with outside a bar on the island, that was pretty much the only reason for the suspicion, that and his strange
behavior.
Joran even seemed to confess to playing a role in her murder after a while. That was to an undercover reporter in a jail where he is currently rotting
in Peru for another young woman`s murder.
But now there just might be a break in Natalee`s case. Natalee`s dad, Dave, Dave Holloway, and a private investigator named T.J. Ward say a tip
has come in from one of Joran`s friends, and it could be the key to solving her murder. That tip led to the discovery of human remains behind a home
in Aruba.
DNA from those remains is right now being tested to see, in fact, if it is Natalee. The investigation has taken 18 months, and it`s been the focus of
a new documentary on the Oxygen network, "The Disappearance of Natalee Holloway."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE HOLLOWAY, FATHER: My name is Dave Holloway. My daughter, Natalee Holloway, went missing in Aruba in late 2005.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The primary suspect, Joran Van Der Sloot, the son of a judge.
HOLLOWAY: Joran was the last person seen with my daughter. He knows what happened. But he`s never been charged with a crime. A man named Gabriel
(ph) has come forward and said, I`m living with this guy who says that he knows where Natalee`s remains are.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe the information he`s told you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, 100 percent.
HOLLOWAY: We`ve gone on a lot of leads, and none of them have panned out.
[20:05:00]This lead, we have a person who states that he was directly involved in disposing of Natalee`s remains.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Joining me now, Natalee Holloway`s father, Dave Holloway, and private investigator T.J. Ward. Welcome to the both of you.
David, I can begin with you. Twelve years is a long time, but not if you`re a father.
HOLLOWAY: That`s right.
BANFIELD: If you`re waiting for something, it`s like it`s yesterday. Why this? Why now? How did you get to the discovery of human remains?
HOLLOWAY: To back up, we`ve been investigating this for the last 18 months, almost two years now.
BANFIELD: You and T.J.?
HOLLOWAY: T.J. and I, yes. Excuse me. I received a call from Gabriel (ph), a guy that has two daughters of his own. And he...
BANFIELD: Just some guy named Gabriel (ph) out of the blue, an informant.
HOLLOWAY: Out of the blue. And he came through my screening process that I worked, and got hold of him. He said, Look, I want five minutes of your
time, if I can. This is not a theory, speculation or whatever. This is real stuff.
And I was kind of hesitant about even listening to him at the time, but he went on to say, Just give me five minutes. I`ve got some information that
may be useful in locating your daughter`s remains.
So I took a few deep breaths, and I said, OK, well, tell me. And he started explaining about he came in contact with one of Joran`s friends
months ago, and over a period of time, he developed some information through that contact that he felt like was important and that it should be
continued.
And I took his name and number, thought about it, did some research, as much as I could. I called him back the next day. He gave me some more
information. We spoke a little longer. I asked him if he could please talk to T.J. Ward. And I called T.J. and I said, I`ve got this guy. Can
you call him and vet this guy out to see if we need to pursue this lead?
BANFIELD: So T.J., you have been in this business. You have that sixth sense. You`re an investigator.
T.J. WARD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Yes.
BANFIELD: And you know when something`s garbage from the start.
WARD: Yes, I do.
BANFIELD: You also get a spidey sense when you think that you`re on to something. Why this? Because Dave and his family have been wracked (ph)
by some of the worst people who`ve come out of the woodwork for 12 years claiming they know something or someone, and it`s never panned out. Why
this time?
WARD: Well, I`ve been involved with this for 12 years. And when Dave called me 18 months ago, he told me about this guy. And I went -- after
listening to him on the phone, I went to him in Florida, and I sat him down for over an hour. And he started telling me things that I knew some of the
answers to.
And after I got through talking to him, I called Dave back and I said, Some of the information he`s telling me, it`s not public, and I`m trying to
figure out how he knew that. So Dave and I started on this journey very quietly between us. And we said, We`ll keep it between us and then we`ll
start looking into some of the pieces of information that he has.
BANFIELD: So I want to be really clear with our viewers because there`s sort of a chain that leads to the actual discovery of what now, just in the
last few days, has been determined to be human remains, the likes of which not yet tested, DNA testing may or may not confirm.
But this Gabe (ph), the informant, tells you about a guy named John. The guy named John happens to have befriended Joran after all of this, after
Natalee has gone missing. And this guy named John tells you, I think I can take you to where this happened. Am I correct in that? And if so, how
many places did you have to go until you found what you found?
WARD: We went a couple places. And we had some information and targeted where the human remains were found. And so we took the information that we
had, and went forth with it.
BANFIELD: Ultimately, you made this discovery. It`s curious that you`re doing the testing. This would be -- in America, this would be --
instantly, the police would descend upon it. Instantly, it would be mapped out. There`d be an investigative process. There`d be evidence gathering.
The case would still be open. And the testing would happen at a lab or facility with the authorities involved. That`s not happening here. What
is happening, Dave?
HOLLOWAY: No, it`s not. Well, you think back of some of the things we came up with. The prime minister announced in 2005 that there was blood
found on the headliner (ph) of the vehicle that Joran was in, which was a Capper (ph) Brothers vehicle, which was not taken into custody until three
weeks after she disappeared.
We had a reliable source by the name of Art Wood (ph) who spoke with a police officer that tested that headliner (ph) and he said it tested
positive for blood with luminol. When the tests came back, they said it was chocolate and cleaning fluid and...
[20:10:00]BANFIELD: You`ve never had a lot of faith in the Aruban authorities in all of this.
HOLLOWAY: We always have our doubts. And you know, just...
BANFIELD: We should remind our viewers that Joran`s father was a judge.
HOLLOWAY: Right, and...
BANFIELD: So that taints the whole thought of whether you`re getting a fair shake.
HOLLOWAY: And also, we learned later on -- T.J. uncovered this -- that the acting police chief at the time was Joran Van Der Sloot`s godfather and
Paulus Van Der Sloot`s best friend.
So we go into this island the very first day, second day. They`ve already interviewed Joran Van Der Sloot, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, and basically
said they had nothing to do with this. And two days later, all the media had descended on the island, and they all of a sudden arrest two black
security guards.
Well, the media looked at that and says, Well, you know, Joran Van Der Sloot was the last person she`s with. Why would you arrest...
BANFIELD: Why would he not...
HOLLOWAY: ... these security guards?
BANFIELD: So...
HOLLOWAY: And I think it was a ploy to get us off the island and get everyone out.
BANFIELD: In the Oxygen special, there is this dynamic that plays out. And if I can, I want the play a small clip from this. This is where you
are actually interviewing Gabe (ph), the informant that leads you to John. John leads you to the remains. And in this, you are hearing from Gabriel
(ph) what Gabriel (ph) says John has told him. And these apparently are the stories that Joran has told John over the last several years.
And it is alarming to hear the theory of how this played out and how Natalee may have died. I want to play this moment, if I can, from the
special. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John said that Van Der Sloot goes, We walked down there, and I took two drinks. I told the bartender, Get me two drinks. So
-- but fix it good.
HOLLOWAY: Joran Van Der Sloot admits that he served Natalee a drink. And I think it was a spiked drink with GHB, which is a date rape drug.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So then they go down to the beach. Van Der Sloot said that as he was trying to kiss her, she starts foaming at the mouth because
she was overdosing. He panicked. He didn`t even put her on her side, roll her over or nothing. She actually choked on her own vomit.
HOLLOWAY: If she died on her own, why didn`t he just say it was an accident?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because he got scared.
HOLLOWAY: They may have found GHB.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
HOLLOWAY: That`s the reason.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, because that`s what they were doing to all the girls. You know, he panics. He calls his dad. His dad comes. He`s very
pissed off. He looks at her, he goes, Oh, my God, she`s dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: T.J., in your line of work, again, spidey senses are one thing, lie detection tests are another. And you subjected Gabe (ph) to a lie
detection series of tests, as I understand it. What were the results? How did you feel? What`s you feel about his (INAUDIBLE)
WARD: I used the layered voice analysis 6.50 on Gabriel (ph). And I did this for about an hour -- a little over an hour interview, and what he was
telling me, the basis of it was true. So I went back to Dave, and I told him about the voice analysis test that there was some validity to what he
was telling me. So we needed to follow up and move forward.
BANFIELD: Something else Gabriel (ph) said, the story that he said he got, again, second hand, about the involvement of Joran`s father, the judge.
He`s now deceased. His name is Paulus Van Der Sloot. This is what Gabriel (ph) told you, if I can play this sound bite from the Oxygen special about
the involvement he alleges Joran`s father had in the disappearance of Natalee. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He stomps on her legs, cracks her legs, puts her in the burlap. I know this is really hard -- puts her in the burlap and actually
folds her over like this.
HOLLOWAY: And this is Paulus?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. So then grab her, put her back in his car and they drive to the park. And they pick the spot, digs a hole, puts her in,
covers her up. And his dad goes, Grab that cactus, and that will just cover everything up. And his dad goes, Don`t you ever tell nobody, nobody.
But he told John.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: He told John. John is a key figure in all of this. As it turns out, we know who John is because John has spoken with HLN in the past.
It`s John Ludwig (ph).
If you can stick around, both of you, if you can for a moment, back in 2010, Nancy Grace did an interview with John Ludwig (ph), a self-described
friend of Joran Van Der Sloot, who defended that accused murderer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN LUDWIG, FRIEND OF JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: What the media portrays him as is far from the truth. He`s a good person and a good friend, and he`s not
the serial killer, sociopath, psychopath you guys -- the media makes him out to be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:15:00]BANFIELD: So does he still feel that way, given now that human remains have been found? We`re going to tell you how he knows the key
informant and what might have broken this case wide open. That`s coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: A new discovery could soon mean we get justice for Natalee Holloway and her entire family. Natalee vanished during a trip to Aruba
with friends not long after her high school graduation. And after more than a decade of false hopes, dead ends and utter torment for her family, a
tip. A tip uncovered by her father, Dave, and a private investigator named T.J. Ward could provide the clues finally as to what happened to Natalee.
And joining me once again, Natalee Holloway`s father, Dave, and private investigator T.J. Ward. Thank again to the both of you for being here.
I want to play for our audience, if I can, a moment between the person who led you to now what we know recently, as of just a few days ago, turned out
to be human remains. The person who led you there is a man named John Ludwig.
[20:20:12]We know because he interviewed with Nancy Grace on this network, and that was back in 2010. And she pressed him about what he knew from his
friend Joran about the story Joran told. And he was very, very cagey back then.
In retrospect, from what you have found now and your liaison with him now, it is very telling to watch him. Let`s have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: What, if anything, did he tell you about Natalee Holloway?
JOHN LUDWIG, FRIEND OF JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: We only had one main discussion on it, and it was an evening that we watched the Natalee
Holloway movie on TV. And he just told me parts of the movie that were true and parts that weren`t true. And that`s about at length as I want to
get into.
GRACE: Did you ask him more things?
LUDWIG: No, I didn`t bring it up. He talked to me about it. But I`m not -- I don`t want to get into any more of that.
GRACE: You mean you don`t want to tell me more about it, right? Or you didn`t want to get into more of it with him?
LUDWIG: No, I don`t want to bring that up at this time.
GRACE: Well, I would advise you to get ready for a subpoena to find out in a court of law what he had to say about Natalee Holloway`s death.
It would seem to me that you would be concerned that he knew where a dead body was! I mean, if you knew where a dead body was, Mr. Ludwig, wouldn`t
you tell police?
LUDWIG: I mean, not if it compromised me, maybe not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Dave Holloway, hearing that, it`s -- it`s -- it`s disgusting. It`s filthy. And yet this man may end up being the linchpin to the case.
Why didn`t the FBI know more about him? Why didn`t the FBI get on this guy earlier? Why didn`t he get subpoenaed? Nancy`s right. Why didn`t he get
pressed? And why weren`t the police on this long ago?
HOLLOWAY: That`s a good question. It`s Aruba`s case, and they`re responsible for interviewing any and all witnesses.
BANFIELD: Did the FBI try to get him?
WARD: No, they can`t do anything on their own.
BANFIELD: He`s American.
WARD: (INAUDIBLE) fore...
BANFIELD: He`s American! He lives in America!
WARD: The FBI was in Aruba for purposes of advising Aruba what to do in the investigation. That was their only purpose, and to monitor what was
going on with the Aruban investigation.
BANFIELD: Did you feel like you had no ally with the FBI? Again, this John Ludwig is an American, and he lives here. And I mean, I`m not a
lawyer, but that smells a lot like obstruction of justice to me, maybe lying to authorities if they did question him.
HOLLOWAY: Well, we get that question all the time. Why don`t they do something? And the answer is, is unless we`re requested by Aruba, since it
happened in Aruba, they`ve got to send a request to The FBI, and they`ll look into it.
BANFIELD: And you`re just not in Kansas anymore when you`re in Aruba. Where are these human remains now? What`s the status? When will we learn
how long it`ll take to get the result from the DNA testing?
HOLLOWAY: T.J. handled that portion of it.
BANFIELD: The mechanics, T.J. What are we going to find out and when? And where are those remains right now?
WARD: The remains, after we learned last week of being human, were sent off to the lab to get further testing for DNA.
BANFIELD: In the U.S.?
WARD: Yes. Yes.
BANFIELD: D.C.?
WARD: I don`t know where they went, but they`re at a very prominent lab that discovered they were human remains. And it`s going to take some time
to find that out, to go through to see if there`s DNA that matches Natalee.
BANFIELD: Did the Aruban authorities just allow these remains to leave? I mean, that would never happen in America. You just couldn`t cart something
up and take human remains out of America to some foreign country for testing. Or did they even know? Did they care?
HOLLOWAY: You`ll have to stay tuned in this...
WARD: Stay tuned, and...
HOLLOWAY: ... in this deal. It`s an eye-opening experience. And if it hadn`t have been for the cameras, we wouldn`t be sitting here today.
BANFIELD: And I understand it is a remarkable coincidence that it was discovered that they were, in fact, human remains about a week ago. And
this production`s been in the works for a long time.
I don`t think anyone should ever pass judgment on a man like you, who spent the last 12 years just trying to get answers. Put yourselves in his shoes
before you pass any judgment on that.
Real quickly, to Joey Jackson, our defense attorney, CNN and HLN legal analyst. I`m not the lawyer, Joey. You are. If that man told Nancy
Grace, Well, I just don`t want to talk about it, years and years ago, and if, in fact, this turns out to be Natalee Holloway and he led Dave Holloway
to his daughter`s remains, what happens to John Ludwig?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN/HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Ashleigh, that`s a good question. And I certainly think -- and you hit it on the head. I mean,
when you`re obstructing justice, I think there`ll be a point in time that a subpoena will be issued and he`ll be asked as a material witness to answer
questions as to what he knows and what his knowledge is.
[20:25:08]And in the event that he does not want to comply, then, of course, you have contempt charges that could be forthcoming. And there
could be a world of other things that occur because now the investigation, particularly with this earth-shattering development -- and we`ll see what
the DNA turns up. But it could otherwise, if that DNA shows proof positive -- I mean, that`s all the corroboration you need. So what does he know?
When did he know it? And what is he not saying?
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: ... world of hurt.
BANFIELD: He`s not been charged with anything, and maybe that`s one of the big mysteries, you know, in this case so far, as well.
T.J. Ward, thank you for being here. Dave, God, I hope this pans out. In a really sad way, I hope this pans out for you. I hope you get an answer.
And I hope 12 years is it.
HOLLOWAY: I do, too.
BANFIELD: God bless you. And thank you for doing this. and I look forward to hearing what your results are when you do get them. Thanks for
being here tonight.
Want to remind you, as well, that "The Disappearance of Natalee Holloway," the special, airs Saturday on Oxygen, 7:00 and 9:00 Eastern time.
A frightening murder mystery in Nashville, a 12-year-old girl killed in her own home while her mom was at work. In fact, her last text message to Mom
said, Someone`s knocking at the door. And now police are searching for an extraordinarily violent killer.
[20:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: If you`ve ever left your preteen or your teenager home alone even if you know that that kid is responsible, there is still that little
nagging feeling that something could happen to them.
And when the mother of 12-year-old Yhoana Arteaga left her daughter at home so that she could go to work, she have may felt that same little tweak, but
she had to go to work. It happens to all of us.
And that something that we all fear actually did happen inside that home not long after Yhoana texted her mother to say someone is knocking at the
door. When her mother returned a little over an hour later, her daughter was dead.
Police are not saying much about how Yhoana died, only that she died of blunt force trauma and that her clothes were in disarray. And then there`s
this -- that they believe she knew her killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID KAUTZMAN, SERGEANT, METRO NASHVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: This is a horrible, brutal thing. I`ve never seen anything this brutal in my entire
career.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Yhoana did not go to school the day she was killed because she was at home on crutches after hurting herself while skating. And the CEO of
the charter school she attended said Yhoana was a truly gifted student.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON RYBKA, CEO, REPUBLICAN CHARTER SCHOOL: All we knew was that she was not planning on being at school today. Her mother had indicated that she was
going to swing by today to pick up any sort of makeup work.
To see a student who was so loved and loving and showed so much promise, and at the age of 12 seeing her life just snatched away like that, it`s
devastating for us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: J.R. Lind is the national editor for patch.com, and he joins me from Nashville tonight. J.R., it is odd when you hear the police say that
they have never seen anything this brutal in an entire career because they see the worst of the worst. What are you hearing from the inside on this
story?
J.R. LIND, NASHVILLE EDITOR, PATCH.COM (via telephone): Not much. They`re holding back quite a bit. And, you know, that happens during
investigations, obviously, so they can get tips. But I think yesterday the clip you played from the news conference, it has obviously shaken the
department pretty deeply, what they found inside that mobile home.
BANFIELD: It`s so strange, J.R., that they`re saying she was brutally killed, blunt force trauma, but they`re saying she was not shot and she was
not stabbed. Her clothes were in disarray, but they won`t say if she was sexually assaulted. What about the scene inside? I mean, forced entry? Was
the trailer in disarray? What else do we know about the crime scene?
LIND (via telephone): Yes, there wasn`t a forced entry. And the details kind of came out in two pieces. We got the initial stuff Thursday and
Friday of last week and then yesterday they revealed a little bit more.
But initially what we were told was, like you said, there was no stab wounds and no bullet wounds. We didn`t get the blunt force trauma report
until yesterday, but yes, there was no forced entry and, you know, she told her mother somebody was knocking at the door.
So you assume she answered the door. And in a long time police spokesperson here in Nashville would not say whether she was sexually assaulted. But one
thing he did say that I found interesting was the killer -- he said something to the effect of the killer knows how she was found and the
killer knows what he did.
BANFIELD: Wow. Well, that leads me to what the Metro PD spokesperson said about processing the crime scene. It`s a small crime scene because it`s a
mobile home. But here`s what they said about how much time they had spent. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON AARON, PUBLIC AFFAIRS MANAGER, METRO NASHVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: The Police Department spent many, many hours processing the inside of the
residence. We have sought to collect DNA evidence. We have sought to collect finger prints and process any other item inside the residence that
could be helpful in this investigation.
The scientists at our crime laboratory, our fingerprint experts at the crime laboratory, have made this case a priority and are working diligently
to process the evidence recovered here from the scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: It`s sad because it`s taking them a long time
[20:35:00] which means the family can`t re-enter their home, they can`t determine if anything`s been stolen, so that motive can`t be established
right away.
I want to bring in Joey Jackson real quickly if I can. Joey, I`m curious about those close neighbors because you can see that trailer has a next
door neighbor. You would imagine there`s evidence that they could glean just in terms of what was heard if it was that brutal a crime.
But that also brings me to Tennessee`s death penalty. Is a brutality to a kid telling in itself when you`re investigating who might have done it?
JACKSON: It certainly is, Ashleigh. I don`t even think that they would have to -- and certainly motive is important and they`ll be interviewing
neighbors and friends and associates and who knew she was there and who would have an opportunity to be there.
But you heard there in the press conference regarding DNA. He mentioned something that we all know and familiar with, right? Talk about the
fingerprinting and of course the DNA analysis.
There are also other imprints. There are hair fibers that could be left there. There are clothing fibers that can be left there. There are imprints
in terms of shoes or sneakers or other things that you have. And so who knows how careless the person was in committing this crime and what if any
blueprint they left there.
So I think that the scouring of the neighborhood to get certain types of clues, any surveillance to get any types of clues, but also the forensic
evidence there particularly if they described it as such a horrific scene, is going to be very telling and important, Ashleigh, in bringing whoever
did this to justice.
BANFIELD: Let`s just hope they`re were as careless as we imagine they likely could have been. Joey Jackson, thank you. J.R. Lind, thank you.
Listen. It is no secret I can say this right now. This is not a cable news program, this is a prime program, but this country has been in turmoil over
last Saturday`s racist march. And then of course the United States president`s reaction to it.
But I`m going to talk about something else. Charlottesville. Charlottesville, Virginia, and what`s happening there today, because the
focus has been on healing.
Friends and family of the biggest victim of all, Heather Heyer, packed the Paramount Theater to remember the 32-year-old paralegal who was killed on
Saturday when a car hit her and other counter-protesters who were marching in opposition to a unite the right rally of white nationalists.
Her mother spoke from the heart about her daughter`s life and about her hopes that her daughter`s death is going to make a difference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN BRO, MOTHER OF HEATHER HEYER: They tried to kill my child to shut her up. Well, guess what? You just magnified her.
(APPLAUSE)
BRO: So remember in your heart, if you`re not outraged, you`re not paying attention. And I want you to pay attention, find what`s wrong. Don`t ignore
it. Don`t look the other way. You make it a point to look at it and say to yourself, what can I do to make a difference?
And that`s how you`re going to make my child`s death worthwhile. I`d rather have my child, but by golly, if I have to give her up, we`re going to make
it count.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Speaker after speaker described this young woman, Heather, as a bold soul, known to stand up for what she felt was right. And that`s what
she was doing when she went to Saturday`s rally.
Two Colorado teenage girls planning a Columbine-like attack at their school.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIENNA JOHNSON, ACCUSED OF MURDER PLOT (voice-over): It would be taking people down with me and people will know how I felt and people will know
how much pain I was in and people will know how much I hated everyone and I would be making a name for myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: And that`s not the only thing these two said. Find out after the break what they said and what might be helpful to the rest of us from their
admissions.
[20:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: Two teenage girls convicted of plotting to gun down and blow up classmates at school. And if that sounds a hell of a lot like Columbine,
you are right. Tonight, we`re lucky it didn`t happen, because it could have, 10 miles away from Columbine. It got pretty darn close.
And we know that because we`re learning that the two girls, Sienna Johnson and Brooke Higgins, revered the Columbine murderers. New evidence just
released is giving us an inside look into what those girls were thinking and what those girls were planning. I want you to listen to what Sienna
told
[20:45:00] a detective about how Columbine was her inspiration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON (voice-over): I started watching a lot of documentaries about like Columbine and everything and that really inspired it, to be honest. I
personally like if I`m going to be honest, I looked at them as like Gods. I just found what they did very --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Ballsy?
JOHNSON (voice-over): Yes. I think like I don`t know, I really, really, really, really connected to them, I guess.
It sounds really weird that I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): I don`t think it sounds weird.
JOHNSON (voice-over): I could really see myself just doing, like I knew I was capable of doing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: The girls weren`t just talking about it, they were writing detailed descriptions about their plans. Brooke, in fact, wrote in her
journal just days before their massacre was initially scheduled to take place.
And I`m going to read from December fifth, 2015, not a day goes by that I don`t think about killing myself or everyone around me. I wish I was around
for Columbine. I wish I`d done Columbine with Eric and Dylan. They were so incredibly smart. They saw the strings that control the system, and they
weren`t f`ing sheep. I wish I could just even have a conversation with them. Everything in Eric`s journal makes f`ing sense, like I have very
similar thoughts to his.
The new evidence even shows how Sienna and Brooke`s plan began to take shape, their plan for guns, in fact. They mapped out the school, certain
areas that would be extra crowded at certain times and where security guards would be stationed. Thankfully these two girls were caught before
they could actually act.
Brooke pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit murder and solicitation to commit murder. Sienna pleaded guilty of menacing and conspiracy to commit
murder. But these girls looked and seemed like the kids next door.
So is there anything that we can learn from their journals, their interviews, their admissions, to help us get in the minds of other kids and
maybe prevent the next school shooting or the next awful violence that may be just down the road?
I want to bring in George Brauchler. He is a district attorney for the 18th judicial district in Colorado. He joins me from Castle Rock. Sir, thanks so
much for being here. How close did these girls actually get to pulling this off?
GEORGE BRAUCHLER, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, 18TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT (via telephone): Well, we think they got pretty close. In fact, you know, after
they exchanged some Snapchat and Tumblr information with each other, one of them started researching books, started researching that night.
They decided to do Columbine part two online, how to get guns as an underage person. Then Sienna actually went out and tried to order a BB
rifle online from Amazon so she could practice shooting at targets.
They also reached out to a friend who they believed had access to a handgun and started the process of going to his house and having conversations
about whether or not they could access that themselves. We`re never going to know how close we came to this happening in part because there was a
brilliant thing in place down in Douglas County, which is where Castle Rock is, which is text a tip.
Another student who became very disturbed about the things that these girls were talking about and the things that they had shared with her, that she
went ahead and anonymously texted law enforcement about this. And that act alone is really what triggered the intervention of law enforcement here to
stop them.
BANFIELD: Mr. Brauchler, I want to ask our control room to queue up soundbite number three, because there are so many clip from the
interrogation and hats off to the investigators out there who were able to just glean so much information and get these girls talking, especially the
culling of the interviews as well or the journals, because there`s just remarkable telling information.
So in this particular part of the interview with Sienna, this sort of tells us how these two girls` lives collide, because it is remarkable that there
are two like Eric and Dylan who had the same feelings about what they wanted to do. Typically it`s one that perpetrates a crime like this. But
this is telling us how both Sienna and Brooke came together. This is the interview of Sienna. Let`s play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON (voice-over): There was a point in time where it was more of a fantasy that I had to get out because I`ve always been very exaggerating. I
exaggerate a lot of thing and it has to be real to me.
So for a while it was more of a fantasy back then. When I started really thinking about it and like -- I just got more invested. When I met Brooke
and everything, it became really real to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): She go to school too with you?
JOHNSON (voice-over): Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So, I just want to carry on if I can part of that same vein. That was Sienna speaking, but this is Sienna
[20:50:00] in her journal, her private thoughts. And she said, I have finally met the perfect person, someone who is as angry as me, hates
humankind as much as me, and someone who`s got what it takes to bring vista down. We are about to make this school a living f`ing nightmare. God Brooke
and I will be unstoppable. We will get firearms. I can promise you f`ers that. I can`t wait.
Mr. Brauchler, was it astounding to you that they were partners in crime? Was it helpful to you because sometimes that opens the floodgates on the
other kid or was it more difficult because they often point the finger at the other to escape the blame? Which was it with these two?
BRAUCHLER (via telephone): You know, it was -- first it was like a gut punch. I mean, and I know you know this. But I`ve prosecuted the guys who
sold the TEC DC-9 handgun (INAUDIBLE) Columbine which was only about 15 miles to the west of this high school.
A Columbine was a neighboring high school where I grew up. So that hit home back in `99 when this happened. And this was so eerily similar and the fact
that you have these two broken vessels that but for perhaps fate would not have found each other and might have gone on to do other less dangerous
things.
But as you know with teenagers more so with boys than girls, there`s a synergy there and teenagers feed off of each other. Like one teenage is
dumb, two teenage boys are incredibly dumb. In this particular case, we have each girl who is having harmful thoughts about themselves and others
and when they found each other, you can see it accelerates.
The way in which they approach, how they were going to address whatever it was inside, whatever that pain was, that hurt, and they both came from
broken homes. They were both smoking marijuana and one of them was using another harder drug. They took all of that stuff and fed off of each other
to create this situation.
BANFIELD: You know, you mentioned the kinds of trouble they were in, you know, personally, and what was revealed from the journal, I want to read
some more if I can, from Brooke`s journal --
BRAUCHLER (via telephone): Yes.
BANFIELD: -- an entry from December fifth, 2015. I want to do something to exciting and powerful. I want to be the one in charge. I want to be
impossible to kill. I want to destroy.
And I`m going to carry on another entry from Brooke`s journal from the seventh of December that same year. I`m so goddamn tired, tired of f`ing
everything. There`s no good in this world and the only path with hope is a much darker one, one of evil, chaos, and destruction.
And from Sienna`s journal, I want to beat the living shit out of someone with a heavy metal baseball bat. I want to crash every limb and snap their
f`ing necks, ha, ha, ha, ha, so cruel. I`m so cruel. I have destructive and violent feelings.
Dave Cullen knows a lot about this. He`s the author -- he literally wrote the book. He`s the author of "Columbine." Two young women, journals with
this kind of information. They revered Eric Harris. Were they similar or are they vastly different?
DAVE CULLEN, AUTHOR OF "COLUMBINE": You know, my earlier read -- I`ve just been going through this today. They both remind me of Eric, Eric Harris,
which is astonishing because among school shooters and spectacle murders, Eric is an outlier, he`s fairly rare, a really sadistic, psychopathic kid.
BANFIELD: Angry.
CULLEN: Yes, so angry and contemptuous in particular. You know, now, I`m not a psychologist and I`m not deep into this case yet, but I was shocked
because it`s almost always immediately apparent. You got the alpha, you got the follower. And they jump right out at you. This might be a double alpha
case which I`ve never seen before.
It`s so vindictive. When I listen to Sienna`s taped interview with the detective who is great. He`s really great at this sort of like just drawing
her out. And the amount of time he spends in sort of winning her over is fantastic. But she is so blase, it`s not even a lack of remorse. It`s a
lack of --
BANFIELD: Understanding.
CULLEN: Recognition or --
BANFIELD: Of the world of hell is about to rain down on her, she has no clue.
CULLEN: No, she doesn`t.
BANFIELD: You know, I say these things like look --
CULLEN: Like are we going to get fried chicken tonight or Taco Bell? It`s just like --
BANFIELD: If you see, I only got 30 seconds, but this is an entry in one of the journals and the pictures, parents, if you`re out
there, look, I get privacy, but if you suspect there`s anything, any depression, any sadness, you have an opportunity to look into the minds of
your children and you see anything like this, intervention, because God forbid that we didn`t find these two and something else happened like
Columbine that you know so well.
Dave, thank you. George Brauchler, thank you as well. We`ll be back right after this.
[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: I want to take you immediately out to Long Beach, California, specifically right near the ports, actually in the ports. The north end of
the ports of Long Beach and San Pedro in California, reports of a stolen car.
You see that white vehicle? That is apparently a stolen car. It`s very damaged in the back end. Police are after this person. And I can tell you
this. This guy has gone flying through a crowded highway. He has flown through the ports.
Not only that, but there are big rigs all over this area that he has been sort of meandering through. At this point, you can see the bumper dragging.
No one`s quite sure how this is going to end. No one is sure exactly who this driver is. It is not this driver`s car. And it will likely not end
well for this driver either.
Thanks to our affiliate KCAL in California. We`re going to continue to watch this for you. Hopefully an update for you tomorrow night.
[21:00:00] Thanks for watching tonight. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. "FORENSIC FILES" starts right now.
END
