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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Four Hurt, One Dead In Shooting At YouTube Headquarters; Did Man Killed And Bury His Wife. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired April 03, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: Breaking news everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield this "Crime and Justice" and a crime has just taken place

and it is not your ordinary crime. You`re looking at pictures from San Bruno, California where a female suspect, apparently entered the YouTube

headquarters and unloaded. Shooting at least four people. That one dead that you see on your screen is her. Apparently of self-inflicted gunshots.

The four that were hurt were transported to the hospital, but the thousands or so employees who work at the YouTube Headquarters were sent into what`s

been described as a chaotic situation with not only the FBI and the ATF, but the San Bruno Police Department all responding to this really Helsian

(ph) Headquarters out on the west coast. I want to take you directly to the most recent press conference that was just held by San Bruno Police

Chief, Ed Barberini. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO LIVE FEED)

ED BARBERINI, CHIEF, SAN BRUNO POLICE DEPARTMENT: My name is Ed Barberini, I am the police chief with the San Bruno Police Department. I would like

to do is give you a quick briefing and a time line of what we know now and where we`re at it at this point. So, if you bear with me, information is

coming in. It`s obviously a very fluids situation. We`re doing the best I -- the best we can to keep everybody up to date.

So, at 12:46 p.m. this afternoon San Bruno Police Department received numerous 911 calls regarding gunshots at the YouTube Campus located at

Cherry Avenue in our city. San Bruno police arrived on scene at 12:48 and really began a search for a possible shooter or suspect. Upon arrival,

officers encountered numerous employees flees from the building, it was very chaotic, as you can imagined we did encounter one victim with apparent

gunshot wound towards the front of the business as we arrived.

Several minutes later, while conducting a search of the premises, our officers located a second individual with a gunshot wound that appears --

that may have been self-inflicted. We`re still working on confirming that. Two additional victims were located several minutes later at an adjacent

business. As to the extent of all of the injuries of our victims are unknown right now. They are all transported emergency medical care, but

they are all unknown. SO if I miss that, we have four victims, who have all been transported for gunshot related injuries and we have one subject,

who is deceased inside the building with a self-inflicted wound.

At this time, we believe to be the shooter, but we are still following up on that. Multiple law enforcement responded to assist, we`re very grateful

for everyone`s help and assistance, but we cannot have responded in accomplishes without everybody`s help. This is an active event and an

active investigation and numerous law enforcement personnel from numerous different local agencies are still conducting a search to the business just

to make sure that it is clear.

We conducted a quick, immediate search of the premises. When the first officers arrived, they pursue to an Active Shooter Protocol, and after that

was completed. Now we`re going through methodical slow search just to make sure we cover all the bases. That is all I have for you at this time. We

hope to have something a little later. I cannot give you -- I`m sorry, excuse me, -- I cannot give you the time of the next press update, but

we`ll put that out as soon as we have that information.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m hearing there were two shooters, a man and a woman.

BARBERINI: No, I cannot confirm that. It`s a female.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible).

BARBERINI: My understanding is that they are -- they had been transported and are being treated for injuries that are treatable. We`re hoping for

the best, obviously.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are there more people inside the building or --

(END VIDEO LIVE FEED)

BANFIELD: Still, some of the more updated information that we can now give you as they have been trying to update the alarming number of press,

because this is almost like a clock work machine at this point. When a shooting happens, the response has now become by route (ph). The media

responds. They set-up where they can, they get the information they can. What we`re learning at this early stage right now is that 27 people are in

fair condition. I can`t tell you if that is from any kind of injury like tripping, falling in the ensuing mad flood of employees that ran from those

buildings.

By the way, we saw picture of them searching employees one by one. Watch this. They search an employee and they let that employee crossover to the

other group on the other side. This is sort of now how it works. This is what happens now for all these innocent people in a shooting, because who

knows if the shooter is lurking among them like the Florida shooter actually was. Escaping a school with the rest of the victims.

[18:05:10] So, this is now standard operating procedure. Each one and imagine 1100 employees flooding out of that building and police trying to

search each of them for weapons, guns or any other, you know, dangerous evidence. So, as we look at this, I can also tell you 27 people are

apparently in fair condition. There is statistically studied, 37 people were in critical condition, but that certainly does not match up with what

the police just told us.

They are saying four people. They are saying four people were transported. And as they actually, you know, accounted they said, that the first victim

was found in the front when they responded to this building. The second victim was likely the female shooter, likely from self-inflicted gunshot

wounds, dead. Two additional victims were found in an adjacent building. So any other staff that you see on the injured, maybe people who tripped,

fell were injured in the (inaudible). And speaking of all the people who had to flood out of building and run for their lives, I want you to listen

to this man who had a pretty shocking account of what he witnessed at the YouTube Headquarters. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

It was just like two or three shots. And then like, within 30 seconds after that or 40 seconds after that, then I see a girl running out and that

she was shot in the leg, she was running here, then the other people that are behind me, get open the doors and let her in -- pulled her in. And

they grab a bunch of napkins. So I come back and I took down the girl. Then after I took on the girl, she (inaudible) then I ran back over there

and I`m looking inside and then I`m looking, then the other guy goes, "Oh, she just shot the other person." And that person got shot ten times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So there you have it. Firsthand account. Now we`re learning. And what`s so fascinating about this is female shooter. I don`t know how

many of these shootings I`ve covered in last 30 years of doing this job, but I don`t know if I have ever covered one that involves a female shooter.

I really have to scan the analysis of my mind for this, but I don`t recall ever having a female shooter, so this really stands out. That will brand

this particular incident as different from others. Because now, sadly we need to brand these incidents, so that they are differentiated, because

they all seem to flow together. There are so many. After all CNN senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter is with me. I saw you nodding your

head. I know we all have to be objective reporters, but I don`t think there`s anything that is not objective about seeing how sick and tired we

are at covering shootings and by the way, how good at it that we`ve have become.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: You know, the shooting --

BANFIELD: There`s a formal process now that we just click into.

STELTER: Right, the police, the media, the public. We kind of -- we had been through this so many times as a country and I think it was telling

Ashleigh that the students in Parkland, the March for Our Lives Movement, issued statement right away, you know expressing condolences to the staff

at YouTube, you know, because these people become connected when these shootings get national attention.

This case, YouTube, you know, this is one of the most famous companies in the world. It`s one of the most famous workplaces in the country when you

hear about a shooting at YouTube Headquarters.

BANFIELD: Do you ever -- calling your family?

STELTER: Yes. I immediately talked to staffers who are there. A couple staffers who had to be evacuated. One was evacuated relatively quickly.

It was seen in the pictures of that on screen. The other staffer took a while for police to evacuate this person from the building. That`s because

there`s multiple buildings on this campus, it`s a college campus, you know, --

BANFIELD: I read there was four buildings for YouTube alone, is that right?

STELTER: Yes, that`s right. More than a thousand staffers working here. This is -- the headquarters for YouTube for the past eight years, you know,

a lot of visitors on any given day and a lot of staffers. And we should acknowledge there is quite a bit of security. You know as you go to the

Google building, any Google building around the world, you`re going to get scanned in, you are going to have your photo taken, you`ll be given a

badge. So, if this was someone actually visiting YouTube, there will be information right away about that person. If there was an employee, the

company will have records of where the person went, what she was doing on campus that day, so that remains to be seen.

This doesn`t seem to be random. This does not seem to be a coincidence, this happened at YouTube. But we don`t if this was an employee who

committed this crime or an ex-employee. Maybe a girlfriend or a wife of an employee that we don`t know. But certainly it does appear that one of

these individuals was targeted. That could be the person in critical condition. And there are other injuries as well. We don`t know quite how

bad?

BANFIELD: We do know that one person was targeted. These other two may have just gotten in the way?

STELTER: I`m saying that based on what the police described in the chain of events.

BANFIELD: Look at this. This is new. I mean this is really new. Now that we are watching as they have -- they are all stopped in one spot and

told you may not proceed until we searched every single one of you individually. This is sort of a new M.O., because it was Parkland where

the shooter, Nikolas Cruz ran with the rest of the students. He got out of that school with the rest of the students. So, now this kind of an M.O.

that other shooters can take on. And I bet you we are going to start seeing this all the time.

STELTER: Even though it`s frightening for the staffers, for the employees and visitors who are having to be searched, it`s also a source of comfort

to know that nobody else was able to escape.

[18:10:08] That there are no other assailants in this case. And this sure has all the markings of a murder-suicide and in other victims who were

there nearby, but again we don`t know that for sure. We don`t know anything besides the gender, like you said, it`s so unusual to hear about a

female gunman, but we don`t know any other information.

BANFIELD: We`re still sort of mystified by how this all played out inside. The YouTube Headquarters again, the police saying it was an adjacent

building were they found the two other victims.

STELTER: Right.

BANFIELD: Really odd. What I can tell you though that there is another witness that we can -- that we can account here for, Erin Meador, I don`t

know if I`m pronouncing her name right, but Erin Meador apparently had witnessed some or all of what we have been talking about. Have a look.

Oh, Erin, I think you`re with me live. Erin, are you with me?

ERIN MEADOR, SHOOTING WITNESS: Oh, yes. I`m on hold.

BANFIELD: Erin, I`m so sorry. I thought we had tape of you. I`m delighted to be able speak with you live.

MEADOR: Yes definitely.

BANFIELD: Erin, tell me your -- Erin tell me your account. Where were you? What have you seen and what`s the situation around you?

MEADOR: Yes. So, I was getting up to get ready to go to lunch and turned around and a colleague had said, "Hey, you know, we heard some really loud

sounds outside. We think there might be an active shooter situation. Be careful." And so, I kind of walked over to that side of the building. We

are -- you know, we face the YouTube building. And so, you know, we didn`t really see any activity in the shooting, but then all of the sudden we

heard some sirens and then saw some people quickly running out of the building. So, what we thought was just, you know, just construction noise

that had turned out to be something a lot more serious.

BANFIELD: So, Erin, I will read one account that I found sort of intriguing, but at the same time frightening. Another witness who we just

heard from said that he saw someone running. That she appeared to be shot in the leg, but they grabbed some napkins and that they saw another person

look as though to be shot ten times. Someone else mentioned I believe seeing a victim shot on the patio, were they eat. Does any of that line up

with your account on what you had seen?

MEADOR: Yes. So, you know, the YouTube -- so we face YouTube building and behind the YouTube building, there`s a kind of outdoor area, were people

from lunch and kind a picnic outside. You know, we actually had a number of colleagues report that they heard gunshots inside our building. It

sounds like the gun -- the shooting transpired outside. One of my colleagues, he is outside across the street have said that he heard up to

20 different shots fired as he was walking which caused him quite a bit of alarm.

So, we watched -- we kind of watched from our third story floor to kind of watch people getting pulled out single file with their hands over their

heads. I saw somebody being carried out of the building. There were multiple people. Assisting the person out of the building and making the

assumption that was one of the people that was injured. And we did see some ambulances that we had been seeing. So, right now, what we`re

witnessing the policeman and kind of the SWAT team had kind of dispersed off the main entrance of the Cherry Avenue entrance to YouTube. That we`re

seeing, you know, SWAT vehicle in the middle of the intersection. You know, dozens of police cars, ambulances, fire trucks and then we also have

a staging area behind our building where police are interviewing employees and having them staged. They are having their I.D`s pulled out and kind of

interviewing them to see what`s happening. I think that is also where a lot of their reporters are staging as well.

BANFIELD: And Erin, just pause for a moment, I just want to get in a little bit more information that we are now learning from two law

enforcement officials that the shooter is believed to have known at least one of the victims of the shooting today. I suppose that may not be

surprising, given the theories that are floating. That perhaps, this was, you know, a woman in search of one particular target. Two other people for

whatever reason ended up being injured as well, but two law enforcement officials saying the shooter is really to have known at least of the

victims. Erin, real quickly, where exactly are you? And what was your advantage point, what are you -- the building are you -- the sheltering in

place, by the way, are you safe?

MEADOR: Yes, we are. So, we are actually locked down across the street in our building. So, yes, we are -- I`m on the third floor of our building

across and in a safe place.

BANFIELD: Let`s have a clear view of what`s happening right on the street in front of you, the people who are being search as they egress from this

area?

MEADOR: Yes.

BANFIELD: How many people can you see out there at this point?

[18:15:00] MEADOR: I think about six, I would say close to 15 to 20 law enforcement on the entrance of YouTube with a number of a very SWAT details

patrolling on the street level and I`m also seeing -- I can walk over to the other side there`s a --

BANFIELD: So we are now -- actually as you say that -- Erin, as you say that, we just got some live pictures up from the helicopter from KGO. So

we can see a little bit of what -- of what you`re seeing as well. You know, I can`t help, but this maybe very telling of the time there and

there`s people with you and it doesn`t sound like a terrified environment that you`re in and people seems like they are relaxed. I think, I might

even heard a little bit of laughter. And that may speak to the moment we are in right now, because years and years ago, I think people who are in

your location would have been as frightened as those across the street.

MEADOR: Yes.

BANFIELD: Tell me this -- characterize with me, how this is for you? You`re there, you are in a story that you probably seen play out over and

over on the news and now you`re in it.

MEADOR: Yes. We all have been panicked and huddle around, you know, we -- unfortunately, we are kind of cut-off from the information, like we are in

that building, so the only thing we knew of was the shots that we were hearing, that all my colleagues heard. And then to kind of witness like

the barrage of ambulance and supportive staff kind of -- kind of come down all at once in our vicinity which is something we have never witnessed

before. I`ve never seen anything like this before.

You know, what I can say is that, you know, we all had been huddled around, kind of chasing back and forth not really knowing when are we going to be

able to leave our building. You know, it seems as though the YouTube building has been evacuated. We`re still locked down across the street.

You know, all the police activity is kind of blocking and kind of surrounding our building, kind of checking our area.

BANFIELD: Did you see any victims? Erin, did you see any victims coming out on stretchers? Did you see anybody deceased coming out at all?

MEADOR: No. I haven`t seen anybody deceased, but I have seen -- there was somebody being helped out by multiple people, down -- because it is outside

of the main entrance. You know, fairly steep stairs. There are also ramps that I saw somebody carrying somebody down the stairs. It is about a few

individuals carrying somebody down stairs.

BANFIELD: Erin, I hope you`re going to be OK. And that, you know, I`m really sorry that you`re doing this interview now. You`ve joined a long

list of people who have been now part of this new American cultural reality. And our heart goes out to you for having to sort of deal with

what you had been witnessing and I hope you guys get out safely soon.

MEADOR: Thanks, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: One other thing I want to let you know, Erin mentioned that there were 20 shots, it sounded like from others who had heard what was

going on there. Tom Fuentes, as a law enforcement analysis, when you hear 20 shots, does that give you any indication of what kind of weapon we`re

talking about here?

TOM FUENTES, CNN`S SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST AND FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Well, no actually, because it seems to me it would be hard to

get an AR-15 or a long barrel gun into that building without security or somebody noticing that and preventing it. You know, the shooter at

Virginia tech several years ago, used two hand guns to kill almost 35 people. So, this could be and also, you know, could be a pistol or two

pistols that were easily concealed in a purse, backpack, gym bag, something that an employee would normally carry into the workplace with them.

BANFIELD: Yes, I think we`re going to get those answers probably sooner rather than later. Like you said, we all do these now by route.

Journalists, police officers, ATF, FBI, and P.S. people. Students, office workers, customers, we all kind of know the drill, saying shelter in place

sounds like normal language now. Sign of the times. We are going to continue to watch that for you and we will update you.

We are also going to carry on with the other news that we`ve been following. A woman`s body found buried in a shallow grave. Police will

soon learn that it was not drugs that killed Valerie Tieman, like her like her husband Luke suggested, but instead two slugs from a semi-automatic

pistol. And now her husband is on trial. The prosecutors begin to untangle a web of cheating and lies that could be just a motive for murder.

Someone who didn`t seen her, remember that the first rule of murder is keep your story straight.

[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Valerie Tieman liked perfume and potato chips. So, it would only be fitting that she be buried with those two things. At least that is

all we can guess from the way her body was found buried in the woods behind her in laws house. But Valerie probably wasn`t buried in heartfelt

personalized ceremony after dying a normal death. No, if you ask the prosecutors going after her husband, her body was hastily dumped in a

makeshift grave after she learned that he had been cheating on her. And they say that Luke Tieman was no expert at covering his tracks after

Valerie went missing. First he told her parents that they we`re doing fine before those parents saw his posts on Facebook and he was longing for

another woman. But Luke had a whole other story lined up too saying that Valerie abandoned him at Walmart.

[18:25:15] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe Valerie was trying to leave at some point and maybe if, you know, if he did it, maybe he didn`t want her to go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if she had really gone off on her own power at Walmart it was curious, because she left behind her purse, her cell phone,

her bank card and her checkbook.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Yes, that is all was weird, right? You just don`t leave without that stuff. Oh and then the investigators -- yes, they discovered her

body. And they heard yet another story from Luke, that loving husband saying that Valerie, you know, she had taken to heroin and wanted me to get

her some. And I actually didn`t want her family to hear about her heroin addiction, opioid addiction.

The thing is Luke if you die of an overdose they usually find you with a needle stuck in your arm. They don`t find you with two gunshot wounds to

the back of your head and neck. They don`t find you with bullet fragments still stuck in your skull that police say came from the pistol found in

your mom and dad`s house. But Luke still wasn`t going to cough up that he did the shooting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He truly deny that he had shot Valerie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He denied that he killed her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: here is what he said, "I love her like Christ loved the church."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: With me is Joseph Scott Morgan, he is a certified death investigator and professor forensic at Jacksonville State University. Also

trial attorney, Randy Kesler, is back with me tonight. I want to begin however with Taylor Kinzler. Taylor, is an anchor and a reporter with CNN

Affiliate WABI in Fairfield, Maine. Taylor, the significance of the comments that we are hearing from his parents, really came to life. And

when I say that, real life on the stand. Those parents of that murder victim had to take the stand. What is that they are adding to the case

against Luke Tieman?

TAYLOR KINZLER, ANCHOR.REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WABI: First, Ashleigh, thank you for having me on today. I think what is particularly interesting

about the parents account of what happened, I first learned about Valerie Tieman, when she was reported missing by her family on September 8th back

in 2016. They had not heard from her in several months and of course, the community started to rally behind her husband. Luke came in, but, you

know, he didn`t even report to her parents that she was missing until several days after.

And so that is really the sticking point in this case. The story gets interesting of course, when police then contact Luke Tieman and as you

said, he told them the last time he saw Valerie is when they made a trip to Walmart on August 30th and of course his story continues to change.

Valerie had actually told her parents that she was no longer living with him and that she believes that Luke was cheating on her. And there were

reports of infidelity, a lot of he said, she said, but Luke`s story constantly changed and it has been changing throughout this trial. And I

think that is maybe the sticking points that prosecutors are certainly taking a look at we begin the trial.

BANFIELD: Taylor, the parents of Valerie were desperately trying to get ahold of her. Calling no answer. Texting, Facebook messages. I mean,

that is not just normal for parents not to hear back from their daughter over and over. So what do you do? You try the husband. Where is my

daughter? Where is Valerie, your wife? Kind of want to talk to her and this is the message that parents of this murder victim got back from Luke

Tieman, the loved husband of this lovely woman. We`re good, thank you. Love her so much. Was that a kind of a way that -- I mean was that the

last thing he said to them when they finally decided to hell with that, we`re going to do our own investigation and look at his Facebook.

KINZLER: Yes. That was the last thing that he said to her family which obviously prompted concern, because Valerie`s parents talked to her daily.

And so when they hadn`t heard from her in several weeks, this was obviously something that they needed to look into it and you think that her husband

would know her whereabouts which is why they continued to contact them and reached out to him until he finally said, (inaudible).

BANFIELD: What happened? What happen -- when they look up his Facebook, well, but this guy is just not mensa at all. They first all get a comb, if

you`re going into court, get a comb. That`s is one of the first rule, right? You`re not going after an insanity defense to fella. So they

looked up his Facebook and they found some really telling things that if you are on his side, really stupid things. What was it?

KINZLER: So he had told police, I mean in court affidavit said that he had started a relationship with a woman on Facebook there. It started as a

friendship in the comment section of Facebook post and then it grew from there according to Luke Tieman`s mother, him and Valerie were living in

their home at the time that they had moved out and Luke Tieman told police that he was actually living with another girlfriend that he had. So it was

that relationship that he started with another woman on Facebook. And so, what`s interesting is -- is that he had claimed that Valerie was cheating

on him, but Valerie told her parents that Luke had started an entirely new relationship with this woman that he met on Facebook and that evidence

could be seen in the comments sections on a lot of his post and that something --

BANFIELD: What an idiot. Honestly. Changing your status to in a relationship and saying how beautiful someone is, quote, not talking about

Valerie, like -- again, first rule of murder and disappearances is don`t start shacking up with somebody within days or weeks and maybe don`t start

telegraphing that you found yourself somebody new and pretty.

I mean that`s just kind of, you know, a no brainer. So, there is something else I just want to read if I can, Taylor, real quickly and that is -- I

can play it because we got a tape of it.

It`s the assistant attorney, Lauren Robbin, making her opening statements about the last time that -- when they were looking at Valerie`s phone.

Remember the forensics of a phone, points (ph) at least right to the murder or the murderer or all of the above.

They looked at Valerie`s phone and they found a flurry of phone calls heading out to Luc`s phone, right, because they are still married and they

are still, you know, talking. And let me -- let me let her explain. Have a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAUREN ROBBIN, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Valerie placed 31 calls to Luc`s phone from his parents home in Fairfield. He didn`t pick up until

10:30 that night when he was on his way home from his date. The records show that Valerie never made another outgoing call on her cellphone after

that night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Never made another call. I.e., she`s not talking because she`s dead, and more than likely buried in a shallow grave. We`re going to get in

to exactly what was in that grave. I`m going to give you a hint. All of her favorite things and a little love note from a guy named Luc.

I`m not joking about this. I`m going to show you all of that in a moment. I`m also going to tell you that Luc apparently has been, quote, helpful and

polite and respectful. All those things. Part of his defense. Like apparently if you`re nice, you can`t possibly murder your wife. That`s

next.

[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: When Valerie Tieman was found in her teeny tiny three-foot shallow grave, there were other things that were found alongside her. Other

things that are critical in the murder case against her husband Luc, who by the way, has told a million and one different stories about why she was

missing and why she was found in a shallow grave and why in that shallow grave as they flag the area and dig down, they found a mason jar.

Inside that mason jar, flower stems and a wedding band placed neatly near Valerie`s head. And, you know, for good measure, a bag of potato chip, an

empty box of sweet tarts, and a bottle of perfume.

And if that weren`t enough, a handwritten note. Wonder what it said? It said to my Joy-joy. Flower. Forever. I love you Valerie Joy T. Rest in

peace. My heart in Jesus XO hugs. Luc-e.

Did I say that the guy on trial for murder, the guy with the picture on the left hand side of your screen, name is Luc? So what`s the "E?" Well,

apparently, he had a cute little nickname in marriage. Luc E the bear. Second rule of murder. Don`t sign your name to the note that you leave with

the body. That is if he did it.

Joseph Scott Morgan, as a certified death investigator, is there something to this forensically when someone decides to place trinkets in the grave of

a murder victim?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes, I think that there is, Ash. Thanks for having me this evening. There`s connectivity. You and I

have talked about this a lot in our time together on the air. It`s the things that connect us to those individuals that make it give some kind of

ownership over these events.

And let`s also consider the fact that, you know, her body is found in close proximity to this property that they`re both well aware of. You got these

things that are sentimental, at least in his mind, to her. And that`s not even going into the forensic evidence in this thing of which there is a

plethora of.

BANFIELD: Yes. No kidding. Some of that forensic evidence, by the way, let me just add to that. The forensics are topped off with these changing

stories that Luc Tieman gave to investigators and to the parents. We`re fine. Nothing to see here. That`s when she`s apparently missing.

And then when the police bring him in, he`s like, she left me at the Walmart. Can`t figure out why. And then it was, oh, she loved another man

and was definitely going to marry another man. Oh, wait a second, and now, yes, opioid. She`s addicted to opioids. And oh, P.S. I also went and got

her some heroin and watch her inject herself and die right in front of me.

[18:40:04] Trouble is, she was found with two slugs (ph) in the back of her head when they found that shallow grave.

Randy Kessler, as a trial attorney, those are called bad facts. They are real hard to get over. But what about this whole one where he said, yes, my

brother helped me bury her. How do you get past that?

RANDY KESSLER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: I don`t know how you get past that. Murder is too often accompanied by stupidity. That`s why a lawyer will tell you

don`t say anything. Take your right against self-incrimination. Don`t say a word because then they would have to prove that he did it. They have to use

forensics.

Now, the forensics are almost meaningless because you got all this other evidence that he volunteered and gave up. You know, who knows what defense

he could have had. Oh, I got angry. I shot somebody that was an intruder. I didn`t realize it was my wife. I felt bad. I buried her.

BANFIELD: Randy, his defense also included that he`s polite and he`s helpful. Does that help?

KESSLER: I didn`t learn that in law school. I didn`t know that defensive politeness in a viable defense, but, you know --

BANFIELD: Yes. I didn`t go to law school and I know that that`s just balderdash. And that`s the legal term you can take against me. I got to

wrap it there. Randy, don`t go anywhere. I got other questions for you. My thanks to Joseph Scott Morgan and to Taylor Kinzler on this segment.

Some people blame their bad behavior on the liquor. Some people blame it on the cough medicine. Now a would be pastor is blaming it on a horror flick.

Find out which movie may have inspired him to stab his wife 123 times. That is if he`s actually guilty.

[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: A man of God in North Carolina might have some sin to repent for himself because he`s accused of stabbing someone to death. Not just

anybody. His own wife, while she was sleeping in their bed.

Tonight there`s a new explanation for why Matthew Phelps might have done it. It used to be I had too much cough medicine. That`s what he told 911.

but now he`s also saying that his excuse might come from a cinema classic, though he had a very different story of course, you know, before.

I want to play for you what he originally said to the 911 operator. But you need to know that that way it works in this state is that they alter the

voices so they all sound very slowed down and very weird. So it`s not exactly how they sounded that night, but you`ll hear that excuse, it`s

really easy. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): I had a dream and then then I turned on the lights and she`s dead on the floor. I have blood all over me and

there`s a bloody knife on the bed. And I think I did it. I took more medicine than I should have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Took more medicine than I should have. Coricidin medicine, he said. That`s a 28-year-old bible college student, telling the police cough

and cold medication was the problem here because a lot of times, he says, he can`t sleep well at night. He is probably not sleeping any better now

since the night that he admitted to killing his wife, Lauren. And by the way, this wasn`t just a little kill. This was 123 stab wounds.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Is her chest moving, is she breathing? Anything at all?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): No, she`s not moving at all.

(CRYING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): She didn`t deserve this. Why?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Now Matthew Phelps is charged with first-degree murder and could be put to death for taking his wife`s life. The newly released search

warrants in this case do not exactly help his case. Because they say he was obsessed with the movie about a twisted serial killer that made Matthew

want to kill someone himself. A little movie called "American Psycho." You may have seen it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): I don`t even care. I know that`s crazy. I know that it`s nowhere. But there is no denying that. It`s hip to be

square. It`s hip to be square.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Still kind of gives you the willies, right? Great movie, great actor, super creepy theory. And with me now is "Crime and Justice" producer

Michael Christian, as well as forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, and trial attorney Randy Kessler stays with me for this segment as well.

Michael Christian, what is this connection to "American Psycho?"

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, according to search warrant affidavits, he was obsessed with the movie. He

had an Instagram account where he posted things about the film and also pictures of himself apparently dressed as Christian Bale from that movie.

So apparently it was a big obsession of his.

BANFIELD: Is this a Halloween costume or is this, no, I just really like this?

CHRISTIAN (via telephone): It`s hard to tell, Ashleigh, because his Instagram account is now private, so we can`t actually see the photos. But

it`s referred to in the search warrant affidavits and others have seen these photos as well.

BANFIELD: What`s the name of this Instagram account? He had a funny name for it.

CHRISTIAN (via telephone): It`s called Marty -- you know, I can`t --

BANFIELD: Marty Radical. Marty Radical. What is Marty Radical?

[18:50:00] What is that?

CHRISTIAN (via telephone): I don`t know what that is. I thought perhaps it was a character from "American Psycho" but I looked at the cast list and

there is no character with that name. So, I am not sure where it came from but it certainly not Matthew Phelps.

BANFIELD: He told a friend that he wants to know what it feels like to kill someone. Is that what they found -- have they found that in the

warrant? What did they see?

CHRISTIAN (via telephone): It just says in the warrant that he expressed an interest to a friend that he liked to know what it felt like to kill

someone. That`s pretty disturbing, especially if you are obsessed with a movie about a killer like "American Psycho."

BANFIELD: Right. No kidding. Maybe, Dr. Bober, you can lend some expertise into that. If you love a movie like "American Psycho," it doesn`t make you

a killer. I know a lot of people who love that movie.

But if you happen to have said to a 911 operator, you`re covered in blood, you think you might have just killed your wife because you took too much

cough medicine and she has got 123 stab wounds, is this problematic?

DANIEL BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Well, you know, I think he`s trying to throw anything he can on the wall and see what sticks. I mean, like you

said, there are people that may like the show "Dexter," it doesn`t make them a killer. But I think that he is fun of going around trying to figure

out what is going to help to absolve him of his responsibility.

We do know that the drug Coricidin taken in high doses has a compound called dextromethorphan. And there has been research that shows that people

can become manic and hallucinate and maybe even assaultive. So, I`m not going to tell you that it`s impossible that`s what`s at play here, but it

certainly seems very unlikely.

BANFIELD: But, doctor, would that make you live out your fantasies, thinking you`re dreaming those fantasies?

BOBER: Well, the drug that is in Coricidin, dextromethorphan, works on a system called the glutamate system which also is the same system that PCP

works on. So actually they refer to this drug as the poor man`s PCP. And it can produce a dissociate, out-of-body experience. In high doses it can

cause someone to become psychotic, paranoid and lose touch with reality.

BANFIELD: Well, that would sort of line up with this 911 call saying I was asleep, I woke up, I`m covered in blood, I may have done it. Why, why, why.

Here is his defense attorney, Joe Cheshire. I`m sort of shocked that he would use these words like my client`s been through a hell of a trauma

because I`m thinking his wife has been through a hell of a lot more trauma.

Listen to how Joe Cheshire talks about his client.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE CHESHIRE, ATTORNEY FOR MATTHEW PHELPS: He`s been through a hell of a trauma. We have to ask everybody to withhold judgment in this particular

case until we know more. Hopefully, at the end we`ll solve all the mysteries that surround this case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Randy Kessler, Joe Cheshire wants to solve all the mysteries around this case. He`s got a client that sort of laid it all out and

confessed on 911. How do you mount yourself out of that whole defense?

KESSLER: Yes. Once again, murder is accompanied by stupidity. And that`s why lawyer say don`t say anything. If I was the prosecutor, he would be

guilty because I would just sit there and start counting. I`m say one, two, three. The judge wouldn`t let me to get to 123. but jury would get the

point. Everybody would get the point.

The case is over. You`re right. When people talk about stupid things they did like murder and like their fake excuses about it, they shoot themselves

another hole in the foot if they didn`t already have a losing case. I mean this lawyer has got a really tough uphill battle to defend this guy.

BANFIELD: Again, they call them bad facts for a reason. There is also this notion that apparently Lauren Phelps was preparing to end the relationship.

They were arguing a lot about finances, that he has spent more than they made, all that stuff likely to come into the case.

Dr. Bober, thank you. Randy Kessler, thank you. Michael Christian, as always, you`re so good at what you do. Thank you for that.

I just have this question for you all. Are you feeling stressed? You are not alone. You might actually be surprised to find out which of the states

across this union are the most stressed and which ones are the least. One more thing, coming up next.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We all get a little stressed out at some point, right? But people in some parts of the country apparently get more stressed out than

the rest of us. According to WalletHub.com, here are your top three. Louisiana, New Mexico, which I do not get, and Virginia. Actually, West

Virginia.

In case you`re wondering about the least stressed out, I got you, Minnesota, North Dakota, and Utah. That I get. Those people are awesome.

So, if you wonder how they figure this out, WalletHub took at least, I guess, 38 factors into account including average hours worked per week, how

much people sleep, and also bankruptcy rates, which is kind of interesting.

Apparently they didn`t take into account the four, five, six line in Manhattan because if they did, are you freaking kidding me? It`s so

stressful. Next hour of "Crime and Justice" starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:00:05] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God wants to set you free.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is a traveling televangelist who promises money miracle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whatever you sow, you are going to reap.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But his business expenses don`t look so biblical.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bonuses, unexpected money, favor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he trick his congregation into funding his Ferrari and first class travel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God says bring the tithes and offerings to me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told her parents she abandoned him at Walmart.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe Valerie was trying to leave at some point.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then police found her buried in the woods.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe he didn`t want her to go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now cops saying there was another woman.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was on his way home from his date.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was an affair the reason she was shot in the head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First thing I thought of is he did it, the first thing I thought off.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did she discover everything right before she died.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Valerie never made another outgoing call on her cell phone after that night.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to the second hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE.

If you are ever the least bit suspect of those preachers who appear on TV. If you are ever the least bit leery of the way they ask you for money over

and over again especially late at night in those infomercials then you might find yourself a little bit outraged by the story I`m about tell you.

I want you to meet Pastor Todd Coontz of Charlotte, North Carolina. Good looking guy. Got real presence. But he is accused of filling his pockets

with the money he made as a minister, a traveling televangelist. Said to have reached tens of millions of people all around the world, encouraging

them good Christians to give.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PASTOR TODD COONTZ, CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA: God said bring the tide and offerings to me and see if I won`t open the windows of heaven and pour you

out a blessing you can`t contain. When you bring the tides to God and you make offerings to God, it sets you up to be blessed by God. As you laid

them, I pray blessings over your life. Increase over your life. Promotions, bonuses, unexpected money, favor.

God wants to set you free. God wants to deliver you today. I speak it now. You will live and not die. I rebuke that disease. I love being your

pastor and your evangelist today. Know that I`m praying for you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Just send me money, you know. Send me money and everything is going to work out. So the message that he gave over and over was give and

you will receive. But Pastor Todd may have received a whole lot more than anybody else`s have preached to. Because while his audience was doing all

that nice tithing to him, the fed say he was driving around in a Ferrari or maybe his (INAUDIBLE) hanging out in this $1.5 million condo and enjoying

expensive seafood dinner and unbelievable design or wardrobe and allegedly hiding all those earnings or at least the big part of the earnings from the

fed. And you know that he would not be first man of God to forget to practice what you preach.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who has saved me and washed me and cleansed me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love you Brenda. She will be watching.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have sinned against you my Lord.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There weren`t very in standings with us. In the songs that you wrote.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I would ask that your precious would wash and cleanse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And your songs literally kept me live and I want to thank you for writing this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said you`d tell Brenda for me that I love her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Until it is in the seas of god`s forgetfulness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Anybody else notice from a stand crouch looks like Tammy Fay Bekker? Like I actually thought it heard it personal. I`m like, no.

That`s the whole other one. That`s whole other lady on TV asking for money and then bad stuff happens after.

Hand to God I`m so thankful for Pete Evans. Because he is the lead investigator for the Trinity Foundation. Looks into to all that nasty

stuff that goes on with churches that aren`t real churchly. Trial attorney Randy Kessler is with me as well.

I want to begin with crime & justice producer, Kyle Peltz. He has been working this story.

And Kyle, you kind of had to sort your way through a lot of ugliness that masks yourself in luxury. Because when I look at the stuff that Todd

Coontz had that costs a lot of money. And you got a lot of TV pitches to get that much money. Characterize this guy`s life for me.

[19:05:04] KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER (on the phone): Right. So this guy, Pastor Todd Coontz, he is the founder and minister at a

ministry called Rockwell international ministry. Now prosecutors described as the ministry without a physical church. Instead, he would travel to

other churches and he would appear on those religious television programs. And according to his bio, on the ministry website, he actually had a daily

television broadcast of faith now which reached 90 million homes and aired around the world in 200 countries.

BANFIELD: 90 million homes. My God. If he just got a buck from each one. Imagine. Imagine how many cars and (INAUDIBLE) and land rovers and range

over. Actually, we don`t have to imagine it because Kyle, you found the list - you actually found has the court docs that lists out the vehicles he

has. You have it in front of you?

PELTZ: Yes. So prosecutors say Pastor Coontz actually used houses and cars which were in the names of his various companies and ministry. He

also had a media company that would produce those books and DVDs that he would sell as well as the financial service firm. But the list of vehicles

purchased by his company and his ministry, in a span of what looks to be two years, 2011 to 2013 is extensive. Everything from BMW to Ferrari,

Maseratis and even boat.

BANFIELD: OK. Se we like just sort of cycling through some of the photographs that kind a looks like a commercial. But the truth is, if you

were to hear the list of 2011 BMW, 2011 Regal, 2500 boat, 2012 BMW convertible, 2011 Lexus, 2011 land rover, 2006 Ferrari, 2012 Maserati, a

2013 BMW, a 2013 land rover, a 2012 Ferrari. What the heck? Was this all for him or did other people in his family get cars. How could you possibly

even park that many?

PELTZ: Prosecutors say other family members would be driving the cars. The cars weren`t it, I mentioned residences. In 2012, his ministry

purchased a $1.5 million condo for him.

BANFIELD: What sort of ironic about all of this is that his ministry is all about faith and finance. And he has actually authored a number of

books on faith and finance. I want to just read a couple of the titles. One of the first one is called please don`t repo my car. And that`s the

cover of that book right there, "how my financial life change in 24 hours" "Breaking the spirit of debt," "Super natural debt cancellation." There is

"life after death," "Seven myths about money." "What you think you may know about money will bankrupt you."

That first one, "please don`t repo my car." Kyle, any idea if they reposed those luxury vehicles? Do you know where the cars are?

PELTZ: Right. Actually, that is -- I`m sure it will come out at trial but no idea where the cars are as of now.

BANFIELD: OK. So he also allegedly had a huge hankering for cash, for cash purchases. And they have discovered, I don`t know how, because cash

is hard to, you know, track. But they have discovered some of the stuff that he bought in cash which is not the way us lowly God like beings would

use cash. What did he do? What he buy?

PELTZ: Right. The prosecutors say he would actually get checks for various things and then cash them and kind of hide that money. But between

2012 and 2013, prosecutors say he was buying things in cash at David Yurman which is a designer jewelry store. He also made purchases at Montblanc

which has luxury and diamonds direct which is another jewelry store. And these were big purchases too.

BANFIELD: Look at the amount.

PELTZ: $21,000 to the jewelry store. $3000 to Montblanc. And over $14000 to another jewelry store.

BANFIELD: How do you carry $14,000 off to diamonds direct? You know, the jewelry store at the mall. How do you just walk in with $14,000 in cash?

Because like you said, it is not a check. These are cash purchases. And apparently, you would think those are the kind of things you give to a nice

lady you like but he had a divorce and the estranged wife is on the witness list. What`s she going to say? Do we know?

PELTZ: Right. We know prosecutors have his estranged wife on the witness list. And if she takes the stand in his trial, he is supposed to testify

about his excesses. His clothes, the cash he had laying around the House and jewelry.

BANFIELD: It is amazing.

By the way, you know, in case you are wondering how much money, you know, is even as we do this story, if you were to call the Rockwell Ministry,

like our producers did today, the first thing you hear, the very first thing you hear on the phone, before it`s like, hi, how are you and what`s

your name -- I love this. Are you ready to sow your $1,000 seed today? And the first thing they hear from me is no. I want to speak to Mr.

Coontz, please, you know. But that`s apparently the way they answer the phone at that ministry. And still, even now, as we are facing this

incredibly ironic situation that he is, you know in a lot of trouble over money.

I want to mention something else, Kyle, the business expenses. Because I have seen business expenses that are ridiculous before but these are

unbelievable. Go over the whole list of what he was writing off.

[19:10:38] PELTZ: So prosecutors say from 2010 to 2013, three years, his company, this ministry in his various companies, they paid business

expenses that should have been either all are at least partially personal expenses for Pastor Todd. Now those included over $100,000 for meals and

entertainment. That included movie tickets, red lobster and even Panera bread. The ministry also paid over $200,000 for what they call his TV

wardrobe. Again, at least some of which should have been considered personal. And then there is also a $4000 some legal expense which

prosecutors say was actually for his divorce. And they say his mom, Todd`s mom, even was paid by his business for the tune of over $50000 for quote

"contract services."

BANFIELD: Maybe she was really, really fast at typing. You never know.

Let me bring in Pete Evans.

Pete, the Trinity foundation looks into this kind of garbage. You vet these things. You find out who is cheating in the religious world of, you

know, some evangelists.

PETE EVANS, LEAD INVESTIGATOR, TRINITY FOUNDATION: Yes, we have for a long time.

BANFIELD: And the reality is it`s not the first time we have all been to this rodeo. We have seen the swaggers. We have seen (INAUDIBLE). We have

seen, you know, Jen Couch and we just played all there, you know, talk out here.

EVANS: Yes. We have seen it again very often.

BANFIELD: Characterize this one for me. Because it isn`t wrong to be rich. But there is some wrongness about the way he has reported it to the

government or is it wrong to be rich when you are asking people to send $1,000 of seed money?

EVANS: OK. Well, the sad thing is that he is doing this in the name of God. He is lying to people and this seed faith theology, you open with his

comment when he -- when you first call on the phone. The first thing you heard was sow your seed. And the seed by theology, it tells people if they

plant a certain amount of money, God is going to multiply that amount and give it back. And people who are desperate for a miracle, they have got

relative dying of cancer or they are desperate for financial miracle, they are willing to try anything to get money. And so, that`s the sad things

are the victims.

BANFIELD: Don`t you find it odd as well, Mr. Evans, that you know, you can bust this stuff open but Jim and Tammy Faye Baker had supporters

regardless. I mean, it didn`t matter what you said about the hypocrisy, the stealing.

EVANS: True.

BANFIELD: The misappropriation.

EVANS: And he is back on television, yes.

BANFIELD: Right. These people will still follow. Is this one of your biggest hurdles is not just to get the information out there but somehow to

get the information believed.

EVANS: That`s true. In fact, somebody who is a follower at one of these televangelist like his fellow televangelist Benny Hen who is also under

investigation right now by the criminal investigation division of the IRS and the postal division. They use this same seed faith theology and it`s

just -- it breaks my heart.

BANFIELD: It`s ungodly. Let`s say that it is ungodly.

And hold for one second. Randy Kessler, as an attorney, I`m looking at the charges, OK. It`s not that he is an ungodly man and taking money from

people who are old and can`t sleep at night and watching these things and being convinced that if you pay now you will get this many blessings but if

you pay faster we will double it.

The charges are failing to pay tax, three counts and aiding and assisting in filing false tax returns. But the charges aren`t you are an awful man,

right. So what actually if he is found guilty, would he be facing for these particular charges?

RANDY KESSLER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: So you know, that`s interesting because there`s different level of accountability. Accountable to your

parishioners, to your followers, but we are talking about the law. I mean, law is pretty clean cut. If you pay business -- personal expenses and

didn`t count it as income, you know, if you earn money and you pay by your company, and you use by dinner, then you pay taxes on it because that was

income that you earned. You pay tax on them. But if you have your company buy you dinner so you don`t have to take salary and buy yourself dinner,

that`s tax evasion. That`s tax fraud. That is going to be a clean cut case.

The bigger problem for the general public is like you are for or against it. The followers are going to follow them. These people of Jimmy

Swagger, they love them, they follow them, they forgive and that we can`t fix. All we can do is prosecute for violations of the law. Looks like

they have him on some legal violations. I don`t know about the rest of it.

[19:15:09] BANFIELD: Yes. Well, listen. I`m going to have to leave it there but we will see how the justice system treats him and then at some

point, we will see how God treats him. Well, we probably won`t see that, right.

Pete, thank you. Thank God for what you do. Really appreciate it.

EVANS: Thank you, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Pete Evans joining us. Randy Kessler, as always, thank you. I`m going to ask you to stick around. And great job reporting to our Kyle

Peltz who spends his entire day picking all this stuff so that we can make pictures to show what is going on out there.

New video just released by sheriff`s office in Oregon showing a deadly chase shootout, standoff between officers and a wanted man. And it all

began when a deputy spotted Nathaniel (INAUDIBLE) van on the road the day after Christmas. So just, you know, put that in the context here. Day

after Christmas. This is near boring. He was wanted for violating a restraining order. A chasing sued. Very high speed. Officers followed

(INAUDIBLE) to the home where he lived. And what happened next is just kind off the charts. Take a look.

(VIDEO LIP PLAYING)

BANFIELD: Did you see that? That was the deputy saying (INAUDIBLE) was firing at them. Firing from the rear driver side of his van using an AR-15

rifle, no less, and spraying the patrol cars with bullets. There were patrolmen there, too. Investigators say to our affiliate that he had

hundreds of round of ammunition inside.

Video also shows one of the sheriff deputy`s cars being hit multiple times and another deputy escaping his vehicle just seconds actually before

several shots penetrated his wind shield. Good thing he wasn`t in there. The sheriff`s officer returned fire to (INAUDIBLE). It hit him in the

ankle. He was not done. He hopped back in his van and he actually drove that fan further up the driveway to take cover just before the SWAT team

arrives with the heavy artillery, heavy vehicles and then cuts off his escape route pushing away his van. Watch how this happened.

(VIDE CLIP PLAYING)

BANFIELD: Good idea never to mess with the stuff like that. That`s the heavy equipment. (INAUDIBLE) body was found moments later. He had been

shot in the head by a deputy`s bullet. The grand jury reviewed the whole thing, the whole case. Prosecutors decided not to pursue any charges

against any of the officers involved in the shooting. And now that you have seen (INAUDIBLE) firing off an AR-15 at those officers as many times

as he did, it might not be a surprise as to why.

Do he was busted for trespassing at the same funeral home where his ex- girlfriend`s body mysteriously disappeared from. Now Bill Wilburn is pleading guilty to it. Wilburn was caught on the Mission Park funeral home

property in San Antonio in June 2015. Nearly a year after his girlfriend Julie Mott passed away from complications from cystic fibrosis.

Now, this is where it gets weird. Julie`s body vanished just hours after her funeral service from that home. But no one has ever been charged and

she hasn`t been found. And Bill Wilburn admit that he was the last one to leave funeral home that day. But that he did nothing to Julie`s body.

Police maintain that Wilburn was also harassing the funeral homeworkers in an effort to get more information about what happened to Julie. Something

he denied to me right here on crime and justice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL WILBURN, ACCUSED OF TRESPASSING AT FUNERAL HOME: I never went back onto property. There had opinion times I would drive by the funeral home.

BANFIELD: So you were arrested for driving by?

WILBURN: No. They are saying I went back. After being arrested, they said I went back after that even while on GPS. My pre-trial officer called

me and mentioned that people have been calling her and asking her if I had gone back.

BANFIELD: So let me ask you though. When you were arrested for trespass, where were you when they took you in?

WILBURN: I was in parking lot of my job.

BANFIELD: So they came to you and fabricated that you were anywhere near that funeral home? This sounds preposterous.

WILBURN: Well, I wouldn`t say that they fabricated it. I would say that most likely Mission Park has been trying to build a case saying I`m

obsessed. That I keep going back to the funeral home --.

BANFIELD: Were you or weren`t you there? It`s such a simple question. Were you there?

WILBURN: No. Not at all. Not months afterwards.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Yes, I was confused too. But there you have it. He has pleaded guilty now to being there.

When police found a woman`s body in the wood, her husband told them that it was drugs that killed her. But there were a couple other versions of the

story that he gave as well. And that is problematic because it wasn`t drugs. She died from a gunshot wound to the back of the head. And not

just one, two of them.

How do you figure all that into a murder case? It`s hard and that`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:24:54] BANFIELD: Valerie Timon (ph) liked perfume and potato chips. So it would only be fitting that she would be buried with those two things.

At least that`s all we can guess from the way her body was found buried in the woods behind her in-laws house.

But Valerie probably wasn`t buried in heartfelt personalized ceremony after dying a normal death. No. If you ask the prosecutors going after her

husband, her body was hastily dumped in makeshift grave after she learned he had been cheating on her. And they say that Luke Timon (ph) was no

expert at covering his tracks after Valerie went missing.

First he told her parents that they were doing fine before those parents saw his posts on Facebook and he was longing for another woman. But Luke

had a whole other story lined up too saying that Valerie abandoned him at Walmart.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:25:54] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe Valerie was trying to leave at some point and maybe if he did it, maybe he didn`t want her to go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if she had really gone off on her own power at Walmart, it was quite curious because she left behind her purse, her cell

phone, her bank card and her checkbook.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Yes. That`s all was weird, right. You just don`t leave without that stuff. And then the investigators, yes, they discovered her body.

Then they heard yet another story from Luke, that loving husband saying that Valerie, you know she had taken to heroin and wanted me to get her

some. And I just didn`t want her family to hear about her heroin addiction, opioid addiction.

The thing is, though, Luke, if you die of an overdose, they usually find you with a needle stuck in your arm. They don`t find you with two gunshot

wounds to the back of your head and your neck. They don`t find you with bullet fragments still stuck in your skull that police say came from the

pistol found in your mom and dad`s house.

But Luke still wasn`t going to cough up that he did the shooting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Luke Timon (ph) denied that he shot Valerie. He denied that he had killed her. Well, here what he says, I love her like

Christ loved the church.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: With me is Joseph Scott Morgan. He is a certified death investigator and professor of forensic at Jacksonville State University.

Also trial attorney Randy Kessler is back with me tonight.

I want to begin, however, with Taylor Kinzler. Taylor is an anchor and reporter with CNN affiliate WABI in (INAUDIBLE).

Taylor, the significance of the comments we are hearing from these parents really came to life. And when I say that, real life on the stand. Those

parents of that murder victim had to take the stand. What is it that they are adding to the case against Luke Timon (ph)?

TAYLOR KINZLER, ANCHOR/REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WABI (on the phone): So first, Ashleigh, thank you for having me on today. I think what is

particularly interesting about the parents account of what happened, I first learned about Valerie Timon (ph) which was reported missing by her

family on September 8th back in 2016. They had not heard from her in several months. And of course, the community started to rally behind her

husband, Luke Timon (ph). But you know, he didn`t report to her parents that she was missing until several days after. And so, that`s really the

sticking point in this case.

The story gets interesting, of course, when police in contact Timon. And as you said he told them the last time he saw Valerie was when they made a

trip to Walmart on August 30th. And of course, the story continues to change. Valerie had actually told her parents that she was no longer

living with him and that she believed that Luke was cheating on her. And there were reports that infidelity. A lot of he said, she said. But

Luke`s story constantly changed. And it has been changing throughout this trial. And maybe that is one of the sticking points that prosecutors are

certainly taking a look at, Ashleigh, as we get in the trial.

BANFIELD: Taylor, the parents of Valerie were desperately trying to get ahold of her. Calling no answer. Texting, Facebook messages - I mean,

that`s just not normal for parents not to hear back from their daughter over and over and over. So what do you do? You try the husband. Where is

my daughter? Where is Valerie, your wife? Kind of want to talk to her. And this is the message that parents of this murder victim got back from

Luke Timon, beloved husband of this lovely woman.

We are good. Thank you. Love her. So much. Is that kind of the way this - I mean, was that the last thing he said to them when they finally just

decided, the hell with that. We are going to do our own investigation and look at his Facebook.

KINZLER: Yes. That was the last thing that he had said to her family which obviously prompted concern because Valerie`s parents talked to her

daily. And so, when they hadn`t heard from her in several weeks this was obviously something that they needed to look into and you would think that

her husband would know the whereabouts which is why they continued to contact them and reached out to him --.

BANFIELD: What happened --? So happened when, Taylor, whey they looked up his Facebook, like this guy is just not Mensa at all. They first of all

get a comb (ph) if you are going into court. Get a comb. That`s one of the first rules, right. You are not going after an insanity defense here,

fellow. So they looked up his Facebook and they found some really telling things that if you are on his side, really stupid things. What was it?

[19:30:12] KINZLER: So, he had told police and it`s in court affidavit, he said that he had started a relationship with a woman on Facebook. They`re

-- it started as a friendship in the comment section of a Facebook post, and then, it grew from there. According to Luc Tieman`s mother, him and

Valerie were living in their home at the time that they had moved out. And Luc Tieman told police that he was actually living with another girlfriend

that he had. So, it was that relationship that he had started with another woman on Facebook. And so, what`s interesting is he had claimed that

Valerie was cheating on him but Valerie told her parents that Luc had started an entirely new relationship with this woman that he met on

Facebook and that evidence could be seen in the comment section on a lot of his posts, and that`s something (INAUDIBLE) about.

BANFIELD: What an idiot. I mean, honestly, changing your status to in a relationship and saying how beautiful someone is, quote, not talking about

Valerie. Like, again, first rule of murder and disappearances is don`t start shacking up with somebody within days or weeks, and maybe don`t start

telegraphing that you found yourself somebody new and pretty. I mean, that`s just kind of, you know, a no-brainer. So, there`s something else I

just want to read if I can, Taylor, real quickly, and that is --

KINZLER: Sure.

BANFIELD -- actually, I can play it because we got a tape of it. It`s the assistant attorney, Leanne Robbin, making her opening statements about the

last time that they -- when they were looking at Valerie`s phone, remember the forensics of a phone? Sometimes that leads right to the murder or the

murderer, or all of the above. They looked at Valerie`s phone and they found flurry of phone calls heading out to Luc`s phone. Right? Because

they`re still married, and there`s still, you know, talking. And let me -- let me let her explain. Have a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEANNE ROBBIN, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Valerie placed 31 calls to Luc`s phone from his parents` home in Fairfield. He didn`t pick up until

10:30 that night when he was on his way home from his date. The records show that Valerie never made another outgoing call on her cell phone after

that night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Never made another call. I.E. She`s not talking because she`s dead, and more than likely buried in a shallow grave. We`re going to get

into exactly what was in that grave. I`m going to give you a hint. All of her favorite things and a little love note from a guy named Luc. I`m not

joking about this. I`m going to show you all of that in a moment. Then, I`m also going to tell you that Luc, apparently, has been, quote, helpful

and polite and respectful. All of those things are part of his defense. Like, apparently, if you`re nice, you can`t possibly murder your wife.

That`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: When Valerie Tieman was found in her teeny-tiny three-foot shallow grave, there were other things that were found alongside her.

Other things that are critical in the murder case against her husband, Luc, who, by the way, has told a million and one different stories about why she

was missing and why she was found in a shallow grave. And why in that shallow grave, as they flag the area and dig down, they found a mason jar.

Inside that mason jar are flower stems and a wedding band placed neatly near Valerie`s head. And, you know, for good measure, a bag of potato

chips, an empty box of sweet tarts, and a bottle of perfume. And if that weren`t enough, a handwritten note. Wonder what it said? It said, "To my

joy, joy. Flower. Forever. I love you, Valerie Joy T. Rest in peace. My heart in Jesus, X.O. Hugs. Luc-e." Did I say that the guy on trial

for murder, the guy with the picture on the left-hand side of your screen, his name is Luc? So, what`s the E? Well, apparently, he had a cute little

nickname in marriage, Luc-e, the bear. Second rule of murder, don`t sign your name to the note that you leave with the body. That is if he did it.

Joseph Scott Morgan, as certified death investigator, is there something to this, forensically, when someone decides to place trinkets in the grave of

a murder victim?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes, I think that there is, Ashleigh, and thanks for having me this evening. There`s connectivity,

and you and I have talked about this a lot in our time together on the air, and it`s these things that connect us to those individuals that make it --

give some kind of ownership over these events. And let`s also consider the fact that, you know, her body is found in close proximity to this property

that they`re both well aware of. You got these things that are sentimental, at least, in his mind to her, and that`s not even going into

the forensic evidence in this thing of which there is a plethora of.

BANFIELD: Yes, no kidding, and some of that forensic evidence, by the way, let me just add to that. The forensics are topped off with these changing

stories that Luc Tieman gave to investigators and to the parents. We`re fine. Nothing to see here. That`s when she`s apparently missing. And

then, when the police bring him in, he`s like she left me at the Wal-Mart. Can`t figure out why. And then, it was, oh, she loved another man and she

was definitely going to marry another man. Oh, wait a second, and now, yes, opioids. She`s addicted to opioids. Oh, and P.S., I also went and

got her some heroin and watched her inject herself and die right in front of me. Trouble is, she was found with two slugs in the back of her head

when they found that shallow grave.

Randy Kessler, as a trial attorney, those are called bad facts, and they`re real hard to get over. But what about this whole one where he said, yes,

so, my brother helped me bury her. How do you get past that?

RANDY KESSLER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: I don`t -- I don`t know how you get past that. I mean, murderers, too often are accompanied by stupidity. And

that`s why a lawyer will tell you don`t say anything, take your right against self-incrimination, and don`t say a word, because then they`d have

to prove that he did it. They`d have to use forensics. Now, the forensics are almost meaningless because you got all this other evidence that he

volunteered and gave up. You know, who knows what defense he could have had. Oh, I got angry, I shot somebody that was an intruder, I didn`t

realize it was my wife, I felt bad, I buried her.

BANFIELD: Oh, hey, Randy, his defense has also included that he`s polite and he`s helpful. Does that help?

KESSLER: Yes, well, I didn`t -- I didn`t learn that in law school. I didn`t know that defense of politeness is a viable defense. But, you know

--

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Yes, I didn`t go to law school and I know that that`s just balderdash. And that`s a legal term, you can take it to the bank. I got

to wrap it there. Randy, don`t go anywhere. I got other questions for you. My thanks to Joseph Scott Morgan and to Taylor Kinzler on that

segment.

Some people blame their bad behavior on the liquor. Some people blame it on the cough medicine. Now, a would-be pastor is blaming it on a horror

flick. Find out which movie may have inspired him to stab his wife 123 times. That is if he`s actually guilty.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: A man of God in North Carolina might have some sin to repent for himself because he`s accused of stabbing someone to death. But not just

anybody, his own wife, while she was sleeping in their bed. Tonight, there`s a new explanation for why Matthew Phelps might have done it. It

used to be, I had too much cough medicine. That`s what he told 911. But now, he`s also saying that his excuse might come from a cinema classic.

Though he had a very different story, of course, you know, before. I want to play for you what he originally said to the 911 operators, but you need

to know that the way it works in this state, is that they alter the voices so they all sound very slowed down and very weird, so it`s not exactly how

they sounded that night, but you`ll hear that excuse. It`s real easy. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW PHELPS, DEFENDANT: I had a dream, and then, I turned on the lights and she`s dead on the floor. I`m blood -- I have blood all over me and

there`s a bloody knife on the bed, and I think I did it. I took more medicine than I should have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Took more medicine than I should have. Coricidin medicine, he said. That`s a 28-year-old bible college student, telling the police cough

and cold medication was the problem here, because a lot of times he said he can`t sleep well at night. But he has probably not sleeping any better now

since the night that he admitted to killing his wife, Lauren. And by the way, this wasn`t just a little kill. This was 123 stab wounds.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DISPATCH: Is her chest moving, is she breathing? Anything at all?

PHELPS: No, she`s not breathing at all. She didn`t deserve this. Why?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, now, Matthew Phelps is charged with first degree murder, and he could be put to death for taking his wife`s life. The newly-

released search warrants in this case do not exactly help his case. Because they say he was obsessed with a movie about a twisted serial killer

that made Matthew want to kill someone himself. Little movie called "American Psycho", you may have seen it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Still kind of gives you the willies, right? Great movie, great actor, super creepy theory. And with me now is Crime & Justice Producer

Michael Christian, as well as Forensic Psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, and Trial Attorney Randy Kessler stays with me for the segment as well.

Michael Christian, what is this connection to "American Pyscho?"

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, CRIME & JUSTICE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, according to search warrant affidavit, he was obsessed with the movie, and

he had an Instagram account where he posted things about the film and also pictures of himself, apparently, dressed as Christian Bale from that movie.

So, apparently, it was a big obsession of his.

BANFIELD: Is this a Halloween costume? Or is this, no, I just really like this?

CHRISTIAN: It`s hard to tell, Ashleigh, because his Instagram account is now private, so we can`t actually see the photos, but it`s referred to in

the search warrant affidavit and others have seen these photos as well.

BANFIELD: What`s the name of this Instagram account? He had a funny name for it.

CHRISTIAN: It`s called marty. You know --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Marty, wait, marty radical? Marty radical. What is marty radical? What is that?

CHRISTIAN: And I don`t know what that is. I thought perhaps it was a character from "American Psycho", but I looked at the cast list, and there

is no character with that name. So, I`m not sure where it came from, but it`s certainly not Matthew Phelps.

BANFIELD: He told a friend that he wants to know what it feels like to kill someone. Is that what they found in the -- how did they found that in

the warrant? What did they -- what they see?

CHRISTIAN: It just says in the warrant that he expressed an interest to a friend that he`s like to know what it felt like to kill someone. That`s

pretty disturbing, especially if you`re obsessed with a movie about a killer, like "American Psycho."

BANFIELD: Right, no kidding. Maybe Dr. Bober you can lend some expertise into that. If you love a movie like "American Psycho", it doesn`t make you

a killer. I know a lot of people who love that movie. But if you happen to have said to a 911 operator you`re covered in blood, you think you may

have just killed your wife because you took too much cough medicine and she`s got 123 stab wounds, is this problematic?

DR. DANIEL BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Well, I -- you know, I think he`s trying to throw anything he can on the wall to see what sticks. I mean,

like you said, they are people that may like the show "Dexter", it doesn`t make them a killer. But I think that he`s fond of going around trying to

figure out what`s going to help absolve him of responsibility. Now, we do know that the drug Coricidin, taken in high doses has a compound called

dextromethorphan and there has been research that shows that people can become manic and hallucinate, and then, maybe even assaulted. So, I`m not

going to tell you that it`s impossible that that`s, you know, what is at play here, but it certainly seems very unlikely.

BANFIELD: But doctor, would that make you live out your fantasies? Thinking you`re dreaming those fantasies?

BOBER: Well, the drug that`s in Coricidin, dextromethorphan is -- works on the system called the glutamate system, which also -- is the same system

that PCP works on. So, actually, they referred to this drug as the poor man`s PCP and they can produce a dissociated out-of-body experience, and in

high doses, it can cause someone to become psychotic, paranoid, and lose touch with reality.

BANFIELD: Well, then, that would, sort of, line up with this 911 call saying I was asleep, I woke up, I`m covered in blood, I may have done it,

why, why, why. Here`s his defense attorney, Joe Cheshire -- and I -- I`m sort of shocked that he would use these words, like, my client`s been

through a hell of a trauma, because I`m thinking his wife has been through a hell of a lot more trauma. But listen to how Joe Cheshire talks about

his client.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE CHESHIRE, ATTORNEY FOR MATTHEW PHELPS: He`s been through a hell of a trauma. We have to ask everybody to withhold judgment in this particular

case until we know more. Hopefully, at the end, we`ll solve all the mysteries that surround this case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Randy Kessler, Joe Cheshire wants to solve all the mysteries around this case but he`s got a client that, sort of, laid it all out and

confessed on 911. How do you mount yourself out of that whole defense?

KESSLER: Yes, once again, murder is accompanied by stupidity and that`s why lawyers say don`t say anything. If I was a prosecutor, it would be

guilty, because I would just sit there and start counting, and say one, two, three. The judge wouldn`t let me get to 123 but jury will get the

point, everybody will get the point, the case is over. You`re right, when people talk about stupid things they did, like murder and like their faked

excuses about it, they shoot themselves another hole in the foot if they didn`t already have a losing case. I mean, this lawyer`s got a really

tough uphill battle to defend this guy.

BANFIELD: Again, they call them bad facts for a reason. There`s also this notion that, apparently, Lauren Phelps was preparing to end the

relationship. They were arguing a lot about finances, that he spent more than they made. All that stuff likely to come into the case. Dr. Bober,

thank you. Randy Kessler, thank you.

BOBER: My pleasure.

BANFIELD: Michael Christian, as always, you`re so good at what you do. Thank you for that.

I just have this question for you all. Are you feeling stressed? You are not alone and you might actually be surprised to find out which of the

states across this union are the most stressed and which ones are the least. "ONE MORE THING" coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight. Everybody gets a little stressed out, right? Apparently, some people in certain parts of the

country get a lot more stressed out than the rest of us. According to wallethub.com, here are your top three states for super stressed:

Louisiana, New Mexico -- I don`t get that, and West Virginia. And then, there are least-stressed places, too, and the top three are Minnesota,

North Dakota and Utah, and that I totally get. Those people are totally awesome, totally chill, very chill, actually. Very, very, chilly. If

you`re wondering how they figured it out, WalletHub took -- looked at 38 different factors, including the average hours everybody works per week,

how much sleep they all get, and the bankruptcy rate. So, that might be a big explainer but they didn`t look into at how long it takes to get a latte

in L.A. because it`s so stressful.

Thank you for watching, everybody. It`s Ashleigh Banfield here, coming to you live again tomorrow night 6:00. Hope you`ll join us for CRIME &

JUSTICE. In the meantime, "DEATHROW STORIES" is up next.

END