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Paula Zahn Now

Women's Role in Catholic Church; Congress Battles Over Iraq Funding; Are There Such Things As Curses, Cubs Fans Want To Know

Aired October 16, 2003 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm in Rome with a very special edition of PAULA ZAHN NOW. Welcome.
Tonight, we have all of the celebrations from the Vatican, John Paul II's 25th anniversary as pope. We'll take an in-depth look at the changing nature of women's role in the church. And making the journey to Vatican City, the fascinating story of one believer's pilgrimage -- all that and much more from here tonight.

But we'll also keep you up to date on what's going on at home. We'll look at the growing opposition to President Bush's request for $87 billion for military operations and reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And the Chicago Cubs failed their fans once again. The team is cursed. Just ask any Cubs fan. We'll examine the reality of bad luck.

But first, here at the Vatican, it's been a spectacular day of ceremony and celebration.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): For this pope loved by millions around the world, it was most certainly an historic day. For this pope weakened by disease, it was most definitely a long day, a day crowned by a prayerful and solemn ceremony lit by the setting sun.

The 83-year-old pontiff began the first day of his 25th year in the papacy with his cardinals, the top officials of the Catholic Church. John Paul II presided over this morning meeting and presented to these princes of the church an almost 200-page document detailing their role within Catholicism and alluding to the sex abuse scandals.

While this busy period for the pope continues on Friday with the beautification of Mother Teresa and ends next week when he elevates 31 prelates to cardinal, this busy day ended with a mass and celebration of the pontiff himself. Tens of thousands of his faithful flock joined together in Saint Peter's Square. Applause erupted from every corner, as the pope, weakened by Parkinson's disease, was wheeled out to the altar.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said that he came from a faraway country, but we immediately perceived that the faith in Jesus Christ, that your words and your very person expressed was able to bridge all distances. And we knew that faith could bring us all close together. ZAHN: Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, a close member of the pope's inner circle and the potential successor, welcomed his superior, the former archbishop of Krakow, to the anniversary service. Despite his frail health, the pope himself played a major role in the ceremony.

POPE JOHN PAUL II (through translator): Today, dear brothers and sisters, I have the pleasure of sharing with you an experience that has lasted a quarter of a century.

ZAHN: His strength was remarkable, even surprising. He read just about a quarter of the homily. He led the many prayers. And he even gave communion to selected celebrants from the audience, a fittingly strong ending to a memorable day for one of the longest- sitting popes and the millions around the world praying for him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And I'm joined now by John Allen, who writes for "The National Catholic Reporter" and is one of our analysts here tonight at the Vatican.

Welcome.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Paula.

ZAHN: First off, how do you think history will view tonight's mass?

ALLEN: Well, I think, first of all, as a unique milestone. Once again, setting aside Saint Peter, whose dates we don't know, this is the only pope who's reached his silver jubilee, the only one in the 20th century.

And, obviously, this is a man whose pontificate has cut across every one of the most important social, cultural, political, religious issues of the last quarter century. And so, in that sense, I think tonight's mass is in a way a culmination of an enormous chunk of our recent shared cultural history.

ZAHN: For anyone expecting the pope to reflect on the 25 years of his papacy, they might be disappointed, but that was not something you expected to happen?

ALLEN: Well, no. We tend to think sometimes of popes by comparison to politicians. And so you expect them to be sort of relentlessly on message, in a sense. And that was never the intent of tonight's address.

This was, first of all, fundamentally, a homily, which is a spiritual reflection on a reading from the gospel. And, secondly, it's sort of an opportunity for the pope to deliver a spiritual message. And I think we saw that tonight at two levels. One was his message directed to sort of the outside world, this sort of invitation to join with him in carrying the church forward and to be not afraid to courageously step out into the world with the gospel message. The other was the very clear sort of exclamation point he put on his personal determination to keep going. And I think we heard that message clearly tonight, too.

ZAHN: Which, of course, has been a critical concern to his followers and the rest of us watching him from a distance. You get to see this pope basically almost on a daily basis. Those of us who don't have that continuity were quite struck by how frail he looked, even though he did deliver a quarter of the homily tonight.

ALLEN: Yes.

I think the first reaction when you haven't the pope him for a while is always sort of shock at the frailty, the weakness and the suffering that is so clear. But then, once you sort of get past that initial reaction, what you see is a basic stability and, again, this iron determination to keep going that sees him through events like tonight.

On the other hand, I think I can say that, in these days that the cardinals and the bishops of the world are here with us in Rome, I have heard a new level of cdoncern, I think, for whether or not the focus on the pope's health, which is almost inevitable, given what you see, is beginning to, in a way, crowd out his message. It's very difficult, in a way, to talk about anything else the pope says or does when the physical effort that is required and the suffering that it generates becomes so much the story.

ZAHN: In fact, it was interesting, in my having the opportunity to talk with a number of pilgrims today. They were very depressed by that.

ALLEN: Yes, I think that is the sort of -- what the Vatican has said up to this point is that the pope's suffering and his age is a positive counter-witness, in a world that tends to worship youth and beauty, that you have this elderly man who no longer has that intense physical charisma, in a sense, and nevertheless is able to keep going, continue being of value. And that's a very positive thing.

But, at a certain stage, I think the balance shifts. And what happens is that the concern that the world shares and the compassion and sort of the way you wince when he moves and when he tries to talk, that becomes so intense, that it sort of in a way blocks everything else out of the sky. And it becomes very difficult for the church to talk about anything else. And it can become paralyzing. And so I think that's what being weighed in these days.

ZAHN: Well, you certainly have a deep understanding of all matters Vatican-wise. John Allen, thank you for your expertise this evening.

ALLEN: Thank you, Paula.

And earlier, I spoke with Archbishop Justin Rigali of Philadelphia. He will be installed as a cardinal on Tuesday. We met today in Saint Peter's Square, as pilgrims poured into the square. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Archbishop Rigali, it's an honor to be with you.

ARCHBISHOP JUSTIN RIGALI, PHILADELPHIA ARCHDIOCESE: I'm very happy to be here.

ZAHN: And congratulations on your upcoming honor.

RIGALI: Thank you so much. Thank you.

ZAHN: Do have any sense of how you might feel when you're finally honored with that cardinal's hat and able to wear it for the first time?

RIGALI: Well, I think it represents a great honor for the people that I'm called to serve, right now, Philadelphia.

It's the tradition of Philadelphia that the church honors, the pope honors. And he's been to Philadelphia. But, also, it's the tradition of Saint Louis also, because the news came out when I was still there. So I consider it as a very special honor for both of the archdioceses that I've been privileged to serve.

ZAHN: You have talked a little bit about the pope's declining health. What is your level of concern about his well-being right now?

RIGALI: Well, the pope has placed himself in the presence, in the hands of God. And I am sure that he is confident that God will assist him at this particular moment. It's a different type of moment in his pontificate. We've seen so clearly how his physical forces are diminished.

But his mind is so very clear. His spiritual strength is there. And he's just determined to go on for as long as he can, that God will give him strength. And, also, he is a great inspiration to the people of God throughout the world. Here's someone that has constantly spoken about the value of every human being from the moment of conception, for children, young people, adults, elderly people.

He's encouraged people to bear their burdens. And now here he is bearing with immense dignity the burdens of old age and the burdens of physical limitations. And he does this with an interior joy. So today, he offers all of this to God. He comes back to the very place where he began 25 years ago. And he'll find the same warmth and love that he has experienced from the people in these 25 years. And it means everything to him. He's in the hands of God. And he loves the people.

ZAHN: Earlier today, the pope released a document that made a veiled reference to the child abuse scandal by clergy within the Catholic. What is the message the pope is sending to bishops?

RIGALI: I'm not aware of any document today. I've been very busy all day long and I haven't seen any publication. But the pope, certainly on the 25th anniversary of his election to the seat of Peter, he certainly encourages all of us, whether we be bishops or laity, to live integrity of life and to do everything we can to serve one another. And, certainly, the service of children and the protection of children is an extremely important part. But the pope has been doing this from the very beginning.

He has been speaking about human dignity and encouraging everyone in the church, actually in society, to live lives of integrity, worthy of a human person, worthy of God. And so I presume that he will continue to do that as long as God gives him breath.

ZAHN: We wish you true tremendous luck, Cardinal. And congratulations.

RIGALI: Thank you. Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Thank you.

RIGALI: Thanks very much. Thanks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And there is much more tonight from the Vatican on the 25th anniversary of Pope John Paul II. We will look at the church's relationship with half its flock, women, and the debate over their role.

And back home, what will happen to the president's request for $87 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan in the face of growing opposition in Congress and falling public support?

And a look at the curse that plagues those lovable losers from the Windy City, the heartbreak of a Chicago Cubs fan.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: We are in Vatican City tonight for all the pageantry on the historic 25th anniversary of Pope John Paul II.

Much more ahead from here, but right now, we go to Soledad O'Brien, who joins us from New York tonight -- Soledad.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Paula.

Let's begin with a look at what you need to know now.

A big victory for the U.S. in the United Nations. The Security Council has voted unanimously to approve the U.S.-backed resolution on Iraq. The resolution sets up a multinational force and strengthens the U.N. role in reconstruction.

Investigators in New York say it's too early to speculate on why a Staten Island ferry crashed, killing 10 people. But attention has turned to the pilot, Assistant Captain Richard Smith. A city councilman says Smith collapsed at the controls. He's in critical condition after apparently attempting suicide following the crash.

And Anglican church leaders say the U.S. Episcopal Church's decision to elect an openly gay bishop threatens to tear the church apart. Today, they called on the archbishop of Canterbury to study the issue.

Right now, Congress is debating President Bush's proposed $87 billion aid package for Iraq and Afghanistan. But public support for the proposal appears to be fading. And several Democratic presidential candidates have said they oppose the plan. Is that a good idea?

I'm joined now by "TIME" magazine columnist and also regular contributor Joe Klein.

Nice to see you. Good evening.

JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: The men who would like to be president, Democratic candidates, have said they would vote against it. We haven't heard from Wesley Clark so far on this, but you know what his position is.

KLEIN: Yes.

I just spoke with Clark's campaign. And up until now, he's said that he wouldn't take a position on this, because he wasn't a member of Congress. Now, he says that, in light of today's U.N. vote, he would vote against -- he would oppose the $87 billion. He said we have to go back to the drawing board, separate it out into the 67 that goes to the troops and the rest that would go to reconstruction money and rejigger the reconstruction money, given the worldwide support that may now come after the U.N. vote.

The problem with that is that Colin Powell acknowledged today, and most people believe, there isn't going to be very much worldwide support, and that this money is needed now for troops and for reconstruction. I should point out that the House of Representatives is pulling an all-nighter tonight. They're going to vote on it tonight, the Senate most likely tomorrow. And this is going to pass.

O'BRIEN: Give me a sense, though, that Democrats are just basically piling on this issue for some kind of political leverage.

KLEIN: Well, I would guess so.

First of all, they're angry. A guy like John Kerry who voted for this war, with a great deal of anxiety last year, is angry. And now he's going to vote against the $87 billion. John Edwards also is going to vote against it. And I think that this is in part real, legitimate anger about the way Bush has -- the president has pursued this. But, also, it's a bit of politics.

I would venture to say that none of these guys would vote against this if they were the 51st vote, because they realize that we have a responsibility to the troops and we have a responsibility to the Iraqis now that we've gone in there and busted up that country.

O'BRIEN: At the same time, let's take a look at a poll, October 10 through the 12th; 57 percent say they did not support spending money. That's up from just a month ago, when it was at 51 percent said no. These folks might argue -- all of the representatives might say, well, actually, I'm just doing what my constituents are saying. They're telling me $50,000 on a tank -- on a garbage cleaner in Iraq, when they don't have after-school programs in their own districts.

KLEIN: Well, you're right.

This is an easy political vote, to vote against this money. But it's a bad moral vote. We have a -- when you're an elected official, you have a responsibility to the greater good of the country. And if we stiffed Iraq now, if we walked away from Iraq now, the world would look very much askance at us. Our credibility would nosedive. And it would create a major terrorist problem in that region.

O'BRIEN: Paul Wolfowitz said, we're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon. That was back in March. That is not true?

KLEIN: It's not true. It's one of many things that Bush administration said in selling this war that turned out not to be true.

The oil money won't be forthcoming for years. And that's all the more reasons why the Democrats are so angry at the president and his administration.

O'BRIEN: Some have said, not all the money up front. Do it part in loans, part in actual money up front. What's wrong with that?

KLEIN: Well, the problem with doing it in loans is that we're trying -- right now, we're trying to get the rest of the world, especially the French and the Russians, to forgive the gazillion -- it was something like $80 billion, $100 billion in loans that the Saddam regime owed. We're trying to get them to forgive that.

And, at this moment, for us to take out more loans would undercut that effort. And it would also undercut the effort that we're going to try and have in Madrid next week to have other donor countries come in and spend some money on this.

O'BRIEN: "TIME" magazine columnist Joe Klein, nice to see you.

KLEIN: Good to see you.

O'BRIEN: When we head back to Paula Zahn at the Vatican in just a moment, the women and the Catholic Church. Their role has been a source of controversy. We're going to hear from two nuns with surprisingly different views.

And while fans of the Chicago Cubs mourn another fall collapse, we explore the fact and fiction of the curse.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: There is still great debate within the Catholic Church about women and their role. And it's one that some say is creating a crisis in the church. Tonight, we bring it to you in a new, different, and very personal way, with two outspoken voices that you might not expect.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SISTER JOAN CHITTISTER, BENEDICTINE NUN: Any institution that is not fully incorporating women leaves out half the agendas of the human race.

SISTER MARJORIE KEENAN, RETIRED VATICAN OFFICIAL: The pope has made some very bold gestures in his lifetime for women, which we do not always appreciate or put to use.

ZAHN (voice-over): Two women, two nuns, two very different views. Since ancient times, a man has always been the face in leadership of Catholicism and the Catholic Church. Sister Joan Chittister wants to change that.

CHITTISTER: When there's clear resistance or official resistance or devaluation of women, yes, I'm alienated by it.

ZAHN: Sister Joan's belief and faith began at an early age, but so did her alienation.

CHITTISTER: When I was in grade school, they made the announcement that anybody who wanted to be an altar server should appear in a certain classroom after school. I went. When I got there, I was the only girl in the room. The sister came in and said: Joan, what are you doing here? I said: I came because you want anybody who wanted to be an altar server should come. And she said: Joan, this is for boys only.

And all the boys started to laugh. I'll never forget that laugh. I knew clearly what that laugh said: You don't belong.

ZAHN: But she fears this sense of not belonging is spreading.

CHITTISTER: Women are leaving and taking their daughters with them. Women and leaving and taking their sons with them. The church is bleeding women.

ZAHN: Sister Marjorie Keenan tells another story. She was one of only 400 women at the Vatican, an estimated 10 percent of the city's work force. Now retired, she was one of the highest-ranking women, traveling the world representing the holy see. She rarely speaks out about being a woman in the Vatican.

KEENAN: Women are often a minority in a public life. We are in the public life of the Vatican. So that is not astounding that we're a minority. But we all had positive experiences and found that we shared something in common.

ZAHN (on camera): Do you feel that church policy ever held you back as a nun?

KEENAN: Absolutely not. On the contrary -- and I mean this from the bottom of my heart -- I have been stretched beyond all my imagination.

ZAHN: What has the pope done for women, in your judgment?

KEENAN: Well, I think the fact that there are women working in higher positions, staff positions in the Vatican is one clear sign, that we are named to represent the Vatican in different things. They trust us to be there.

ZAHN: There are many who have characterized the pope's position on women as the purple ceiling. Do you understand that criticism?

KEENAN: There's always, and I repeat, always, more to be done for women in the church and in society.

ZAHN (voice-over): But how much more? And who will be the leader that changes the face of the Catholic Church?

CHITTISTER: There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that you will see women ordained as priests in the Catholic Church. There's no doubt that it may take another 25 or 30, even 50 years, for this to work itself out. But it's not going to go away. It's an essential question in the church. And, furthermore, it's alive in every single institution in the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: This is a time of celebration, a time of pilgrimage here in Rome. We're going to be talking with a woman who made the trek from America for the papal anniversary.

And curses, from the Cubs to the Red Sox, they are the supernatural phenomena du jour. We'll take a closer look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: We are joining you from Vatican City tonight, where Pope John Paul II marked his 25th anniversary today, telling a packed crowd at St. Peter's Square he will continue his work of love.

We have much more to come from here, but first back to Soledad O'Brien in New York -- Soledad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Thanks, Paula.

Here are some of the headlines you need to know.

The Pentagon hopes to cut the number of troops in Iraq significantly in the coming year -- about 140,000 military men and women are in Iraq or neighboring Kuwait right now. If things go well, the total could drop to 113,000. One of the twin Egyptian boys who had been joined at the head seems to be recovering more slowly than his brother. The more active twin has moved an arm and a leg and is showing some signs that he can breathe on his own. The other twin is still in a drug-induced coma and may have experienced mild seizures.

And President Bush has left on a trip to Asia and Australia. Senior White House correspondent John King looks at where the president is going and the challenge he'll face.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The main event is an annual economic summit. But the biggest challenges for the president could be winning support for his approach to Iraq and North Korea.

Mr. Bush is visiting Japan; the Philippines; Thailand, for the annual Asian-Pacific Economic Summit; Singapore; Indonesia and Australia.

One urgent gold is win a major commitment from South Korea to build on Japan's new multi-billion dollar pledge to help with Iraq's reconstruction.

The president wants the APEC leaders to warn North Korea about its nuclear ambitions and he will discuss plans for another round of six-party talks with the North.

Two key players in those discussions, China and Russia, want Mr. Bush to offer security assurances to North Korea. But he is under conservative pressure at home not to offer any concessions until North Korea agrees to end its nuclear weapons program.

BALBINA HWANG, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: For North Korea, demands of a bilateral security treaty of some sort really will only serve their purposes of manipulation.

KING: U.S. military aid to the Philippines to help battle the Abu Sayaff network is just one reminder that Southeast Asia is a critical front in the war on terrorism, and security is now a critical issue for the 21 economies represented at the annual summit.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Economics and security are inextricably linked. You only have to look at what happened in a place like Bali, when you had the terrorist attack there, you can see the economy and terrorism are linked.

KING: The Bangkok summit is being held amid extraordinary security, and Mr. Bush hopes for new steps designed to cut off terrorist movements and financing.

(on camera): The president told reporters before leaving he understands that many in Southeast Asia, especially Muslims, are suspicious of U.S. motives in the war on terrorism. Mr. Bush said he hopes this trip helps change those perceptions, but also said that religious and government leaders in the region have a responsibility, as he put it, "to not led a few killers define their faith or their countries."

John King, CNN, San Bernardino, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Maybe it's because the World Series is played in the same month as Halloween, or maybe it's just that some teams are cursed. How else can you explain a fan in the stands at the Cubs game last Tuesday? Or the ball along with the Red Sox's chances going through Bill Buckner's legs back in 1986? Or this -- the 12-year-old boy who reached over the wall that deflected the ball, along with Baltimore's chances of going to the 1996 World Series? Curses, right?

Well, let's review the evidence this evening with satirist Andy Borowitz, who joins us from San Francisco. And also Michael Shermer. He is the publisher of "Skeptic" magazine and the author of the book "Why People Believe Weird Things." And believe it or not, he's in L.A. for us this evening.

Good evening, gentlemen. Nice to see you.

ANDY BOROWITZ, SATIRIST: Good to be here.

O'BRIEN: Thank you. Andy, let's begin with you. Believe in curses or not?

BOROWITZ: Well, you know, I'm not a scientist like Michael, but I do kind of believe in curses, because I'm from Cleveland. And so that makes me, I guess, kind of a loserologist in a way. We have a long tradition of losing mysteriously there.

O'BRIEN: Well -- yes,so -- are the Cleveland Indians just a bad team or cursed?

BOROWITZ: No, no, no. This is a very important distinction to make. When a bad team loses, that's not a curse. That's a just bad team playing up to low expectations. When a good team loses in a really freaky way, that's a curse.

O'BRIEN: All right. Well, Michael, your job is to debunk curses and myths, so I want to take a look and set up some moments -- relive some really bad moments and have you kind of weigh in for me on these.

1986 World Series -- we showed the pictures just a moment ago -- Red Sox versus the Mets -- the ball dribbles right through Bill Buckner's legs. Many people would say obvious, obvious curse.

MICHAEL SHERMER, PUBLISHER, SKEPTIC MAGAZINE: Yeah, poor Mr. Buckner. You know, he used to be a Dodger out here in L.A., and he's a fine player, and sadly he'll be remembered for that for the rest of his career, his life.

Really what's going on here is just pure, superstitious behavior. Nobody talks about the curse of the Montreal Expos, or in our case, the curse of the Dodgers, who have one of the richest payrolls in baseball and they can't even get to the playoffs.

What we're really talking about here is the fact that people are pattern-seeking primates. We just look for connections between things. We look for simple explanations that -- that can cover what are really more complex explanations. So it's easier to say there's a curse rather than looking at the probabilities of any team, no matter how good they are, actually getting to the top and winning the World Series.

O'BRIEN: Well..

SHERMER: There's another famous curse in sports -- the so-called curse of being on the cover of "Sports Illustrated," and that anybody who makes it to the cover, then their career tends to go down. The reason for that is because it's next to impossible to get on the cover, because of all the different things that have to come together that make you a champion, and the chances of all those things coming together again are very slim, and so you really are at the peak and you have nowhere to go but down.

O'BRIEN: Mike...

SHERMER: So it's really more of a probabilities things.

O'BRIEN: I got to tell you, there are lots of pattern-seeking primates in Chicago who are looking at what happened just a couple of days ago with the Cubs five outs away, basically and a fan interferes. Curse?

SHERMER: Yes, but -- but instead of blaming the fan, what about the eight runs that the Chicago pitching allowed, subsequent to the fan interference? That's obviously really the cause.

BOROWTIZ: If I can jump in here -- you know, I didn't mention this, Soledad, but I'm actually the editor of "Pattern-Seeking Primate" magazine. And...

O'BRIEN: I subscribe to that.

BOROWTIZ: Yes, I think most of us do.

(CROSSTALK)

BOROWTIZ: And as a pattern-seeking primate, I really think there are such things as curses, especially in sports.

O'BRIEN: All right. Well, Andy, if the cubs are cursed, and we know it's because of this billy goat curse -- Billy Goat wasn't allowed into Wrigley Field, blah, blah, blah-blah, we all know the story now -- should they just bring the billy goat back and somehow turn the curse around?

BOROWTIZ: Absolutely. I mean, here's a good reason, just on a practical way, and I think that Michael would agree -- if you bring a billy goat into the stands and a ball is coming towards the billy goat, he's going to get out of the way. He's not going to try to grab the ball. So even from a scientifics points of view, having a goat there makes more sense.

O'BRIEN: All goats, no fans.

SHERMER: Fill the stands with goats, yes. Yes. Now that's a true scientific experiment. OK. I'll do that.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Andy, you're sounding more like a scientist every single minute that we talk.

But seriously -- you know, when you talk about the curse of the Bambino, how do you reverse that one? You can't bring Babe Ruth back, right?

BOROWITZ: Well, you know, George Steinbrenner -- George Steinbrenner -- if he had a curse on his team, he would just pay it off. And that's the difference. I mean, I think that sometimes sheer money can be brought to bare on one of these curses, I think.

O'BRIEN: Michael, I'm going to give you the final word for just two seconds. What should they do to reverse the curse, even if it's just a curse in their own minds?

SHERMER: They should win tonight and go on to the World Series and beat the Florida Marlins. That's what it takes -- talent and skill and a little bit of good luck.

O'BRIEN: Andy Borowitz...

BOROWTIZ: And knock wood. Knock wood.

O'BRIEN: Andy Borowitz and Michael Shermer, nice to see you guys. Thanks.

SHERMER: Thanks.

BOROWITZ: Good to be here.

O'BRIEN: In just a moment, Paula's going to rejoin us from Rome, where she talks with one of Pope John Paul II's biographers.

And in this sea of pilgrims is a woman with a special story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Over the past quarter century Pope John Paul II has been a force for enormous change for the world. Joining me for tonight's "Truth Squad" segment is Marco Politi. He is the Vatican correspondent for the Italian daily "La Republica." And with Carl Bernstein, co-wrote a book about the pope called "His Holiness." Thank you so much for dropping by. One of the most beautiful spots in the world.

MARCO POLITI, "LA REPUBLICA": Yes, absolutely.

ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit about the tens of thousands of people who crowded St. Peter's square today. Are those crowds misleading?

POLITI: Well, they were amazed this evening. And they were puzzled, because it should have been a great party for 25 years of the pope, and they saw that he was in such bad shape. They saw that he was really struggling to say every word, and they didn't know what will happen tomorrow or in a month. Maybe a lot of people thought he should resign.

ZAHN: Which is not a possibility, we are told.

POLITI: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

POLITI: Yes, which the pope has said, he doesn't want.

ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit about the sense of alienation a lot of Catholics feel today. And the root of that is?

POLITI: Yes, it depends, because a lot of Catholics admire the pope as a spokesman for justice and human rights, also the way he behaved in the last war, when he said no war against Iraq. But on the other hand, there are some issues like sexual ethics, like the pill, like the family life, divorced people who remarry can't get the communion. This is really alienating many Catholics all over the world.

ZAHN: You say all over the world, yet would you say the most fierce criticism comes from American Catholics?

POLITI: The most fierce criticism comes from Anglo-Saxon countries; from Germany, from France, from the Netherlands, but also people who don't criticize very loudly the pope on these issues, they follow their conscience, so they don't follow what the pope says.

ZAHN: It's very interesting to look at the statistics, because there was a new poll out today by ABC News and the "Washington Post," which shows by and large, American Catholics do respect the pope as a leader, on the other hand two thirds of them don't believe the pope at all reflects the way they want to live their lives.

POLITI: Yes, it happens a little bit the same also in Italy. Maybe they are not so strong in the criticism, but when it comes for instance, to accept homosexuality, or to accept divorce, or to accept abortion, the Italians vote just in the same way like a lot of Americans.

ZAHN: In many ways, when you try to analyze the legacy of this pope, you are looking at a major paradox of what this pope has accomplished in this church and what he has done outside of the church. And the record is somewhat mixed, is it not? POLITI: It's very mixed. I always remember that Churchill was hailed because he won World War II for Great Britain, but in the following elections, people didn't vote for the party of Churchill, but for Labor Party. So it's a little bit just the same here.

A lot of people is admiring the pope. First of all, because he has shown that faith is something vital in modern society. That faith is not something that belongs to the past. Let's just remember how he was hailed in Denver, for instance, by young people, but also by old people and different people in New York when he had his mass in New York in Central Park.

On the other hand, they feel that sometimes he's too dogmatic, too conservative in traditional things, and this is putting people at disease.

ZAHN: I know you said earlier on that you thought many followers might have been troubled by the sight of the ailing pope today. Was there any thing that you felt particularly surprising about the celebration?

POLITI: Yes, I found that in the St. Peter's Square, there was a lot of tension, a lot of anxiety for the pope. In the past years, the pope has also been admired, because his suffering had something of a martyr, there was a bit of heroism in the way he suffered and went on.

But now people see that his body is so ruined that some people began to say, oh stop, I look at you as my grandfather, and I wouldn't put my grandfather in such a difficult position. Now you should rest. Now you should stay at home and stop working.

ZAHN: Well, Marco we appreciate your dropping by to share some of your insights with us tonight. We look forward to the next book.

More to come from the Vatican. Among the thousands here, one American woman with a remarkable story. A convert from Judaism, who made the pilgrimage for this very special day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Pope John Paul II has a reputation of being liberal on social justice issues, but conservative when it comes to personal morality. How is he viewed by Americans? Joining me this evening from Kansas City is Tom Roberts. He's the editor of the "National Catholic Reporter." Good evening to you Mr. Roberts. Thanks for joining me.

TOM ROBERTS, "NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER": Good evening. Good to be with you.

O'BRIEN: Thank you very much. A new poll out says that 83 percent of Americans say they follow their own moral compass. 14 percent say that they listen to the pope on issues like that. The pope is conservative. he is very clear about dictates from the Vatican. In some ways these numbers reflect that Americans don't think he has a huge relevance to their lives, and yet he's hugely very popular. All this sounds very contradictory to me? Is it?

ROBERTS: Well, it is contradictory, but it's also, I think, nothing new. It isn't a surprise. When the pope comes and travels, Americans love him, as well as people around the world. They see, I think first of all, a personal holiness that is attractive, and also refreshing in a world where perhaps it's not the usual thing.

He also knows how to use the world stage. He's a man of integrity. He's a man of insight and letters. He's a philosopher, a theologian, but he was also an actor and so he knows how to appeal to people.

When you interview, for example, the kids who went to Denver or to Canada for the youth days, they see him as a comforting presence and dearly love them in a way as a grandfather figure, as a holy man, but if you ask them about particular issues, in a very American way, they want to weigh in on them.

They will think their own thoughts and perhaps in a way disagree with the pope in a way that he would really not countenance in a one on one situation, but that's one of the contradictions and one of the paradoxes that we sort of live with this church today.

O'BRIEN: The sex abuse scandal in the American Catholic Church was devastating to the Church. It damaged all the way up the hierarchy, but not the pope. Why not?

ROBERTS: I don't think people hold him, in large numbers, personally accountable for the sex abuse scandal. I think there are some people, some Catholics who would say he handled it badly, or didn't' hold it well, or that his leaders didn't handle it.

And I think that there's a deeper level to this. The sex abuse scandal is more today a scandal of leadership, a crisis of authority, and that goes to the kind of leadership that the pope has provided, the kind of people he's appointed, you know, moderate to progressive, and even some conservative thinkers in the church will look around the landscape and say we really don't have a leader with a stature to take us beyond this, that we've been floundering.

And, I think, there's also, one has to say, this is an unusual period in American Catholic history in terms of the level of distrust and even anger at local leadership. Catholics usually aren't that way toward their leaders. So the pope is going to have a mixed legacy, and the next pope is going to have a lot of work to do to mend fences here. It's a divided church, and one that's uncertain of where it's going.

O'BRIEN: Even in frail health, the pope has continued to travel a lot. What kind of an impact has this had on his perception in the U.S., but also worldwide?

ROBERTS: Well, I think, you know, as it was said earlier tonight, he's been seen probably by more people than anyone. He is incredibly difficult to categorize. He's a very complex person. But again he really does know how to engage people.

Our writer, John Allen often says the crowds energize the pope, even if his frail state, he seems to take a new sustenance from that engagement with people. And I think, he's in many ways, changed the papacy in that sense. People know about the pope and respect him, and respect him in a way as an individual who can talk truth to cultures across all kinds of divides, political divides and ideological divides.

So I think in that sense he certainly has placed the papacy in a realm we haven't seen before.

O'BRIEN: Tom Roberts is the editor of the "National Catholic Reporter." Thanks to have you this evening.

ROBERTS: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Coming up next, a pilgrim's progress. We'll go back to Rome to meet a convert to Catholicism whose come to Rome to be part of the church's celebration.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And welcome back. Thousands of pilgrims have come to Rome this week for the 25th anniversary of the papacy of John Paul II. Carol Klein is one of them. She came to the Vatican from New Jersey. Klein converted to Catholicism just five years ago. Welcome.

CAROL KLEIN, PILGRIM: Thank you.

ZAHN: Why was this so important for you to make this pilgrimage?

KLEIN: Well, I felt it was a once in a lifetime opportunity to see a pope celebrate his 25th anniversary. And I was so honored to have been invited through the diocese of Washington, and it was just a moment that I knew I could not miss.

ZAHN: What did you feel standing there today?

KLEIN: I was quite emotional. I think I was overwhelmed by the amount of individuals who had come to see this man at the Vatican and to see the strength of Pope John Paul II, being able to sustain himself through the hours that we all were there. Which was, I believe, close to three hours for the mass.

ZAHN: Yes, very close.

KLEIN: And it was overwhelming to look all the ways back to see the amount of people being in the front and just looking towards the back. It was just unbelievable.

ZAHN: I am absolutely fascinated by the transition you made. Just converting to Catholicism five years ago. You practiced Judaism for years. What was it about Catholicism that spoke to you? KLEIN: There was just something about walking into a parish church. I belonged to the Cathedral of St. Francis. There was always a presence that I was never alone. It was just very calming, soothing. It was something that brought out a different person in me. My whole life just transacted so differently since I converted, and it's brought a great calm to me.

ZAHN: Well, we appreciate you for sharing your story with us today.

KLEIN: Thank you.

ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us here tonight in Rome. Thanks for much for being with us. (SPEAKING IN ITALIAN). "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. Have a great night.

END

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Iraq Funding; Are There Such Things As Curses, Cubs Fans Want To Know>


Aired October 16, 2003 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm in Rome with a very special edition of PAULA ZAHN NOW. Welcome.
Tonight, we have all of the celebrations from the Vatican, John Paul II's 25th anniversary as pope. We'll take an in-depth look at the changing nature of women's role in the church. And making the journey to Vatican City, the fascinating story of one believer's pilgrimage -- all that and much more from here tonight.

But we'll also keep you up to date on what's going on at home. We'll look at the growing opposition to President Bush's request for $87 billion for military operations and reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And the Chicago Cubs failed their fans once again. The team is cursed. Just ask any Cubs fan. We'll examine the reality of bad luck.

But first, here at the Vatican, it's been a spectacular day of ceremony and celebration.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): For this pope loved by millions around the world, it was most certainly an historic day. For this pope weakened by disease, it was most definitely a long day, a day crowned by a prayerful and solemn ceremony lit by the setting sun.

The 83-year-old pontiff began the first day of his 25th year in the papacy with his cardinals, the top officials of the Catholic Church. John Paul II presided over this morning meeting and presented to these princes of the church an almost 200-page document detailing their role within Catholicism and alluding to the sex abuse scandals.

While this busy period for the pope continues on Friday with the beautification of Mother Teresa and ends next week when he elevates 31 prelates to cardinal, this busy day ended with a mass and celebration of the pontiff himself. Tens of thousands of his faithful flock joined together in Saint Peter's Square. Applause erupted from every corner, as the pope, weakened by Parkinson's disease, was wheeled out to the altar.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said that he came from a faraway country, but we immediately perceived that the faith in Jesus Christ, that your words and your very person expressed was able to bridge all distances. And we knew that faith could bring us all close together. ZAHN: Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, a close member of the pope's inner circle and the potential successor, welcomed his superior, the former archbishop of Krakow, to the anniversary service. Despite his frail health, the pope himself played a major role in the ceremony.

POPE JOHN PAUL II (through translator): Today, dear brothers and sisters, I have the pleasure of sharing with you an experience that has lasted a quarter of a century.

ZAHN: His strength was remarkable, even surprising. He read just about a quarter of the homily. He led the many prayers. And he even gave communion to selected celebrants from the audience, a fittingly strong ending to a memorable day for one of the longest- sitting popes and the millions around the world praying for him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And I'm joined now by John Allen, who writes for "The National Catholic Reporter" and is one of our analysts here tonight at the Vatican.

Welcome.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Paula.

ZAHN: First off, how do you think history will view tonight's mass?

ALLEN: Well, I think, first of all, as a unique milestone. Once again, setting aside Saint Peter, whose dates we don't know, this is the only pope who's reached his silver jubilee, the only one in the 20th century.

And, obviously, this is a man whose pontificate has cut across every one of the most important social, cultural, political, religious issues of the last quarter century. And so, in that sense, I think tonight's mass is in a way a culmination of an enormous chunk of our recent shared cultural history.

ZAHN: For anyone expecting the pope to reflect on the 25 years of his papacy, they might be disappointed, but that was not something you expected to happen?

ALLEN: Well, no. We tend to think sometimes of popes by comparison to politicians. And so you expect them to be sort of relentlessly on message, in a sense. And that was never the intent of tonight's address.

This was, first of all, fundamentally, a homily, which is a spiritual reflection on a reading from the gospel. And, secondly, it's sort of an opportunity for the pope to deliver a spiritual message. And I think we saw that tonight at two levels. One was his message directed to sort of the outside world, this sort of invitation to join with him in carrying the church forward and to be not afraid to courageously step out into the world with the gospel message. The other was the very clear sort of exclamation point he put on his personal determination to keep going. And I think we heard that message clearly tonight, too.

ZAHN: Which, of course, has been a critical concern to his followers and the rest of us watching him from a distance. You get to see this pope basically almost on a daily basis. Those of us who don't have that continuity were quite struck by how frail he looked, even though he did deliver a quarter of the homily tonight.

ALLEN: Yes.

I think the first reaction when you haven't the pope him for a while is always sort of shock at the frailty, the weakness and the suffering that is so clear. But then, once you sort of get past that initial reaction, what you see is a basic stability and, again, this iron determination to keep going that sees him through events like tonight.

On the other hand, I think I can say that, in these days that the cardinals and the bishops of the world are here with us in Rome, I have heard a new level of cdoncern, I think, for whether or not the focus on the pope's health, which is almost inevitable, given what you see, is beginning to, in a way, crowd out his message. It's very difficult, in a way, to talk about anything else the pope says or does when the physical effort that is required and the suffering that it generates becomes so much the story.

ZAHN: In fact, it was interesting, in my having the opportunity to talk with a number of pilgrims today. They were very depressed by that.

ALLEN: Yes, I think that is the sort of -- what the Vatican has said up to this point is that the pope's suffering and his age is a positive counter-witness, in a world that tends to worship youth and beauty, that you have this elderly man who no longer has that intense physical charisma, in a sense, and nevertheless is able to keep going, continue being of value. And that's a very positive thing.

But, at a certain stage, I think the balance shifts. And what happens is that the concern that the world shares and the compassion and sort of the way you wince when he moves and when he tries to talk, that becomes so intense, that it sort of in a way blocks everything else out of the sky. And it becomes very difficult for the church to talk about anything else. And it can become paralyzing. And so I think that's what being weighed in these days.

ZAHN: Well, you certainly have a deep understanding of all matters Vatican-wise. John Allen, thank you for your expertise this evening.

ALLEN: Thank you, Paula.

And earlier, I spoke with Archbishop Justin Rigali of Philadelphia. He will be installed as a cardinal on Tuesday. We met today in Saint Peter's Square, as pilgrims poured into the square. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Archbishop Rigali, it's an honor to be with you.

ARCHBISHOP JUSTIN RIGALI, PHILADELPHIA ARCHDIOCESE: I'm very happy to be here.

ZAHN: And congratulations on your upcoming honor.

RIGALI: Thank you so much. Thank you.

ZAHN: Do have any sense of how you might feel when you're finally honored with that cardinal's hat and able to wear it for the first time?

RIGALI: Well, I think it represents a great honor for the people that I'm called to serve, right now, Philadelphia.

It's the tradition of Philadelphia that the church honors, the pope honors. And he's been to Philadelphia. But, also, it's the tradition of Saint Louis also, because the news came out when I was still there. So I consider it as a very special honor for both of the archdioceses that I've been privileged to serve.

ZAHN: You have talked a little bit about the pope's declining health. What is your level of concern about his well-being right now?

RIGALI: Well, the pope has placed himself in the presence, in the hands of God. And I am sure that he is confident that God will assist him at this particular moment. It's a different type of moment in his pontificate. We've seen so clearly how his physical forces are diminished.

But his mind is so very clear. His spiritual strength is there. And he's just determined to go on for as long as he can, that God will give him strength. And, also, he is a great inspiration to the people of God throughout the world. Here's someone that has constantly spoken about the value of every human being from the moment of conception, for children, young people, adults, elderly people.

He's encouraged people to bear their burdens. And now here he is bearing with immense dignity the burdens of old age and the burdens of physical limitations. And he does this with an interior joy. So today, he offers all of this to God. He comes back to the very place where he began 25 years ago. And he'll find the same warmth and love that he has experienced from the people in these 25 years. And it means everything to him. He's in the hands of God. And he loves the people.

ZAHN: Earlier today, the pope released a document that made a veiled reference to the child abuse scandal by clergy within the Catholic. What is the message the pope is sending to bishops?

RIGALI: I'm not aware of any document today. I've been very busy all day long and I haven't seen any publication. But the pope, certainly on the 25th anniversary of his election to the seat of Peter, he certainly encourages all of us, whether we be bishops or laity, to live integrity of life and to do everything we can to serve one another. And, certainly, the service of children and the protection of children is an extremely important part. But the pope has been doing this from the very beginning.

He has been speaking about human dignity and encouraging everyone in the church, actually in society, to live lives of integrity, worthy of a human person, worthy of God. And so I presume that he will continue to do that as long as God gives him breath.

ZAHN: We wish you true tremendous luck, Cardinal. And congratulations.

RIGALI: Thank you. Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Thank you.

RIGALI: Thanks very much. Thanks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And there is much more tonight from the Vatican on the 25th anniversary of Pope John Paul II. We will look at the church's relationship with half its flock, women, and the debate over their role.

And back home, what will happen to the president's request for $87 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan in the face of growing opposition in Congress and falling public support?

And a look at the curse that plagues those lovable losers from the Windy City, the heartbreak of a Chicago Cubs fan.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: We are in Vatican City tonight for all the pageantry on the historic 25th anniversary of Pope John Paul II.

Much more ahead from here, but right now, we go to Soledad O'Brien, who joins us from New York tonight -- Soledad.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Paula.

Let's begin with a look at what you need to know now.

A big victory for the U.S. in the United Nations. The Security Council has voted unanimously to approve the U.S.-backed resolution on Iraq. The resolution sets up a multinational force and strengthens the U.N. role in reconstruction.

Investigators in New York say it's too early to speculate on why a Staten Island ferry crashed, killing 10 people. But attention has turned to the pilot, Assistant Captain Richard Smith. A city councilman says Smith collapsed at the controls. He's in critical condition after apparently attempting suicide following the crash.

And Anglican church leaders say the U.S. Episcopal Church's decision to elect an openly gay bishop threatens to tear the church apart. Today, they called on the archbishop of Canterbury to study the issue.

Right now, Congress is debating President Bush's proposed $87 billion aid package for Iraq and Afghanistan. But public support for the proposal appears to be fading. And several Democratic presidential candidates have said they oppose the plan. Is that a good idea?

I'm joined now by "TIME" magazine columnist and also regular contributor Joe Klein.

Nice to see you. Good evening.

JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: The men who would like to be president, Democratic candidates, have said they would vote against it. We haven't heard from Wesley Clark so far on this, but you know what his position is.

KLEIN: Yes.

I just spoke with Clark's campaign. And up until now, he's said that he wouldn't take a position on this, because he wasn't a member of Congress. Now, he says that, in light of today's U.N. vote, he would vote against -- he would oppose the $87 billion. He said we have to go back to the drawing board, separate it out into the 67 that goes to the troops and the rest that would go to reconstruction money and rejigger the reconstruction money, given the worldwide support that may now come after the U.N. vote.

The problem with that is that Colin Powell acknowledged today, and most people believe, there isn't going to be very much worldwide support, and that this money is needed now for troops and for reconstruction. I should point out that the House of Representatives is pulling an all-nighter tonight. They're going to vote on it tonight, the Senate most likely tomorrow. And this is going to pass.

O'BRIEN: Give me a sense, though, that Democrats are just basically piling on this issue for some kind of political leverage.

KLEIN: Well, I would guess so.

First of all, they're angry. A guy like John Kerry who voted for this war, with a great deal of anxiety last year, is angry. And now he's going to vote against the $87 billion. John Edwards also is going to vote against it. And I think that this is in part real, legitimate anger about the way Bush has -- the president has pursued this. But, also, it's a bit of politics.

I would venture to say that none of these guys would vote against this if they were the 51st vote, because they realize that we have a responsibility to the troops and we have a responsibility to the Iraqis now that we've gone in there and busted up that country.

O'BRIEN: At the same time, let's take a look at a poll, October 10 through the 12th; 57 percent say they did not support spending money. That's up from just a month ago, when it was at 51 percent said no. These folks might argue -- all of the representatives might say, well, actually, I'm just doing what my constituents are saying. They're telling me $50,000 on a tank -- on a garbage cleaner in Iraq, when they don't have after-school programs in their own districts.

KLEIN: Well, you're right.

This is an easy political vote, to vote against this money. But it's a bad moral vote. We have a -- when you're an elected official, you have a responsibility to the greater good of the country. And if we stiffed Iraq now, if we walked away from Iraq now, the world would look very much askance at us. Our credibility would nosedive. And it would create a major terrorist problem in that region.

O'BRIEN: Paul Wolfowitz said, we're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon. That was back in March. That is not true?

KLEIN: It's not true. It's one of many things that Bush administration said in selling this war that turned out not to be true.

The oil money won't be forthcoming for years. And that's all the more reasons why the Democrats are so angry at the president and his administration.

O'BRIEN: Some have said, not all the money up front. Do it part in loans, part in actual money up front. What's wrong with that?

KLEIN: Well, the problem with doing it in loans is that we're trying -- right now, we're trying to get the rest of the world, especially the French and the Russians, to forgive the gazillion -- it was something like $80 billion, $100 billion in loans that the Saddam regime owed. We're trying to get them to forgive that.

And, at this moment, for us to take out more loans would undercut that effort. And it would also undercut the effort that we're going to try and have in Madrid next week to have other donor countries come in and spend some money on this.

O'BRIEN: "TIME" magazine columnist Joe Klein, nice to see you.

KLEIN: Good to see you.

O'BRIEN: When we head back to Paula Zahn at the Vatican in just a moment, the women and the Catholic Church. Their role has been a source of controversy. We're going to hear from two nuns with surprisingly different views.

And while fans of the Chicago Cubs mourn another fall collapse, we explore the fact and fiction of the curse.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: There is still great debate within the Catholic Church about women and their role. And it's one that some say is creating a crisis in the church. Tonight, we bring it to you in a new, different, and very personal way, with two outspoken voices that you might not expect.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SISTER JOAN CHITTISTER, BENEDICTINE NUN: Any institution that is not fully incorporating women leaves out half the agendas of the human race.

SISTER MARJORIE KEENAN, RETIRED VATICAN OFFICIAL: The pope has made some very bold gestures in his lifetime for women, which we do not always appreciate or put to use.

ZAHN (voice-over): Two women, two nuns, two very different views. Since ancient times, a man has always been the face in leadership of Catholicism and the Catholic Church. Sister Joan Chittister wants to change that.

CHITTISTER: When there's clear resistance or official resistance or devaluation of women, yes, I'm alienated by it.

ZAHN: Sister Joan's belief and faith began at an early age, but so did her alienation.

CHITTISTER: When I was in grade school, they made the announcement that anybody who wanted to be an altar server should appear in a certain classroom after school. I went. When I got there, I was the only girl in the room. The sister came in and said: Joan, what are you doing here? I said: I came because you want anybody who wanted to be an altar server should come. And she said: Joan, this is for boys only.

And all the boys started to laugh. I'll never forget that laugh. I knew clearly what that laugh said: You don't belong.

ZAHN: But she fears this sense of not belonging is spreading.

CHITTISTER: Women are leaving and taking their daughters with them. Women and leaving and taking their sons with them. The church is bleeding women.

ZAHN: Sister Marjorie Keenan tells another story. She was one of only 400 women at the Vatican, an estimated 10 percent of the city's work force. Now retired, she was one of the highest-ranking women, traveling the world representing the holy see. She rarely speaks out about being a woman in the Vatican.

KEENAN: Women are often a minority in a public life. We are in the public life of the Vatican. So that is not astounding that we're a minority. But we all had positive experiences and found that we shared something in common.

ZAHN (on camera): Do you feel that church policy ever held you back as a nun?

KEENAN: Absolutely not. On the contrary -- and I mean this from the bottom of my heart -- I have been stretched beyond all my imagination.

ZAHN: What has the pope done for women, in your judgment?

KEENAN: Well, I think the fact that there are women working in higher positions, staff positions in the Vatican is one clear sign, that we are named to represent the Vatican in different things. They trust us to be there.

ZAHN: There are many who have characterized the pope's position on women as the purple ceiling. Do you understand that criticism?

KEENAN: There's always, and I repeat, always, more to be done for women in the church and in society.

ZAHN (voice-over): But how much more? And who will be the leader that changes the face of the Catholic Church?

CHITTISTER: There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that you will see women ordained as priests in the Catholic Church. There's no doubt that it may take another 25 or 30, even 50 years, for this to work itself out. But it's not going to go away. It's an essential question in the church. And, furthermore, it's alive in every single institution in the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: This is a time of celebration, a time of pilgrimage here in Rome. We're going to be talking with a woman who made the trek from America for the papal anniversary.

And curses, from the Cubs to the Red Sox, they are the supernatural phenomena du jour. We'll take a closer look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: We are joining you from Vatican City tonight, where Pope John Paul II marked his 25th anniversary today, telling a packed crowd at St. Peter's Square he will continue his work of love.

We have much more to come from here, but first back to Soledad O'Brien in New York -- Soledad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Thanks, Paula.

Here are some of the headlines you need to know.

The Pentagon hopes to cut the number of troops in Iraq significantly in the coming year -- about 140,000 military men and women are in Iraq or neighboring Kuwait right now. If things go well, the total could drop to 113,000. One of the twin Egyptian boys who had been joined at the head seems to be recovering more slowly than his brother. The more active twin has moved an arm and a leg and is showing some signs that he can breathe on his own. The other twin is still in a drug-induced coma and may have experienced mild seizures.

And President Bush has left on a trip to Asia and Australia. Senior White House correspondent John King looks at where the president is going and the challenge he'll face.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The main event is an annual economic summit. But the biggest challenges for the president could be winning support for his approach to Iraq and North Korea.

Mr. Bush is visiting Japan; the Philippines; Thailand, for the annual Asian-Pacific Economic Summit; Singapore; Indonesia and Australia.

One urgent gold is win a major commitment from South Korea to build on Japan's new multi-billion dollar pledge to help with Iraq's reconstruction.

The president wants the APEC leaders to warn North Korea about its nuclear ambitions and he will discuss plans for another round of six-party talks with the North.

Two key players in those discussions, China and Russia, want Mr. Bush to offer security assurances to North Korea. But he is under conservative pressure at home not to offer any concessions until North Korea agrees to end its nuclear weapons program.

BALBINA HWANG, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: For North Korea, demands of a bilateral security treaty of some sort really will only serve their purposes of manipulation.

KING: U.S. military aid to the Philippines to help battle the Abu Sayaff network is just one reminder that Southeast Asia is a critical front in the war on terrorism, and security is now a critical issue for the 21 economies represented at the annual summit.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Economics and security are inextricably linked. You only have to look at what happened in a place like Bali, when you had the terrorist attack there, you can see the economy and terrorism are linked.

KING: The Bangkok summit is being held amid extraordinary security, and Mr. Bush hopes for new steps designed to cut off terrorist movements and financing.

(on camera): The president told reporters before leaving he understands that many in Southeast Asia, especially Muslims, are suspicious of U.S. motives in the war on terrorism. Mr. Bush said he hopes this trip helps change those perceptions, but also said that religious and government leaders in the region have a responsibility, as he put it, "to not led a few killers define their faith or their countries."

John King, CNN, San Bernardino, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Maybe it's because the World Series is played in the same month as Halloween, or maybe it's just that some teams are cursed. How else can you explain a fan in the stands at the Cubs game last Tuesday? Or the ball along with the Red Sox's chances going through Bill Buckner's legs back in 1986? Or this -- the 12-year-old boy who reached over the wall that deflected the ball, along with Baltimore's chances of going to the 1996 World Series? Curses, right?

Well, let's review the evidence this evening with satirist Andy Borowitz, who joins us from San Francisco. And also Michael Shermer. He is the publisher of "Skeptic" magazine and the author of the book "Why People Believe Weird Things." And believe it or not, he's in L.A. for us this evening.

Good evening, gentlemen. Nice to see you.

ANDY BOROWITZ, SATIRIST: Good to be here.

O'BRIEN: Thank you. Andy, let's begin with you. Believe in curses or not?

BOROWITZ: Well, you know, I'm not a scientist like Michael, but I do kind of believe in curses, because I'm from Cleveland. And so that makes me, I guess, kind of a loserologist in a way. We have a long tradition of losing mysteriously there.

O'BRIEN: Well -- yes,so -- are the Cleveland Indians just a bad team or cursed?

BOROWITZ: No, no, no. This is a very important distinction to make. When a bad team loses, that's not a curse. That's a just bad team playing up to low expectations. When a good team loses in a really freaky way, that's a curse.

O'BRIEN: All right. Well, Michael, your job is to debunk curses and myths, so I want to take a look and set up some moments -- relive some really bad moments and have you kind of weigh in for me on these.

1986 World Series -- we showed the pictures just a moment ago -- Red Sox versus the Mets -- the ball dribbles right through Bill Buckner's legs. Many people would say obvious, obvious curse.

MICHAEL SHERMER, PUBLISHER, SKEPTIC MAGAZINE: Yeah, poor Mr. Buckner. You know, he used to be a Dodger out here in L.A., and he's a fine player, and sadly he'll be remembered for that for the rest of his career, his life.

Really what's going on here is just pure, superstitious behavior. Nobody talks about the curse of the Montreal Expos, or in our case, the curse of the Dodgers, who have one of the richest payrolls in baseball and they can't even get to the playoffs.

What we're really talking about here is the fact that people are pattern-seeking primates. We just look for connections between things. We look for simple explanations that -- that can cover what are really more complex explanations. So it's easier to say there's a curse rather than looking at the probabilities of any team, no matter how good they are, actually getting to the top and winning the World Series.

O'BRIEN: Well..

SHERMER: There's another famous curse in sports -- the so-called curse of being on the cover of "Sports Illustrated," and that anybody who makes it to the cover, then their career tends to go down. The reason for that is because it's next to impossible to get on the cover, because of all the different things that have to come together that make you a champion, and the chances of all those things coming together again are very slim, and so you really are at the peak and you have nowhere to go but down.

O'BRIEN: Mike...

SHERMER: So it's really more of a probabilities things.

O'BRIEN: I got to tell you, there are lots of pattern-seeking primates in Chicago who are looking at what happened just a couple of days ago with the Cubs five outs away, basically and a fan interferes. Curse?

SHERMER: Yes, but -- but instead of blaming the fan, what about the eight runs that the Chicago pitching allowed, subsequent to the fan interference? That's obviously really the cause.

BOROWTIZ: If I can jump in here -- you know, I didn't mention this, Soledad, but I'm actually the editor of "Pattern-Seeking Primate" magazine. And...

O'BRIEN: I subscribe to that.

BOROWTIZ: Yes, I think most of us do.

(CROSSTALK)

BOROWTIZ: And as a pattern-seeking primate, I really think there are such things as curses, especially in sports.

O'BRIEN: All right. Well, Andy, if the cubs are cursed, and we know it's because of this billy goat curse -- Billy Goat wasn't allowed into Wrigley Field, blah, blah, blah-blah, we all know the story now -- should they just bring the billy goat back and somehow turn the curse around?

BOROWTIZ: Absolutely. I mean, here's a good reason, just on a practical way, and I think that Michael would agree -- if you bring a billy goat into the stands and a ball is coming towards the billy goat, he's going to get out of the way. He's not going to try to grab the ball. So even from a scientifics points of view, having a goat there makes more sense.

O'BRIEN: All goats, no fans.

SHERMER: Fill the stands with goats, yes. Yes. Now that's a true scientific experiment. OK. I'll do that.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Andy, you're sounding more like a scientist every single minute that we talk.

But seriously -- you know, when you talk about the curse of the Bambino, how do you reverse that one? You can't bring Babe Ruth back, right?

BOROWITZ: Well, you know, George Steinbrenner -- George Steinbrenner -- if he had a curse on his team, he would just pay it off. And that's the difference. I mean, I think that sometimes sheer money can be brought to bare on one of these curses, I think.

O'BRIEN: Michael, I'm going to give you the final word for just two seconds. What should they do to reverse the curse, even if it's just a curse in their own minds?

SHERMER: They should win tonight and go on to the World Series and beat the Florida Marlins. That's what it takes -- talent and skill and a little bit of good luck.

O'BRIEN: Andy Borowitz...

BOROWTIZ: And knock wood. Knock wood.

O'BRIEN: Andy Borowitz and Michael Shermer, nice to see you guys. Thanks.

SHERMER: Thanks.

BOROWITZ: Good to be here.

O'BRIEN: In just a moment, Paula's going to rejoin us from Rome, where she talks with one of Pope John Paul II's biographers.

And in this sea of pilgrims is a woman with a special story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Over the past quarter century Pope John Paul II has been a force for enormous change for the world. Joining me for tonight's "Truth Squad" segment is Marco Politi. He is the Vatican correspondent for the Italian daily "La Republica." And with Carl Bernstein, co-wrote a book about the pope called "His Holiness." Thank you so much for dropping by. One of the most beautiful spots in the world.

MARCO POLITI, "LA REPUBLICA": Yes, absolutely.

ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit about the tens of thousands of people who crowded St. Peter's square today. Are those crowds misleading?

POLITI: Well, they were amazed this evening. And they were puzzled, because it should have been a great party for 25 years of the pope, and they saw that he was in such bad shape. They saw that he was really struggling to say every word, and they didn't know what will happen tomorrow or in a month. Maybe a lot of people thought he should resign.

ZAHN: Which is not a possibility, we are told.

POLITI: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

POLITI: Yes, which the pope has said, he doesn't want.

ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit about the sense of alienation a lot of Catholics feel today. And the root of that is?

POLITI: Yes, it depends, because a lot of Catholics admire the pope as a spokesman for justice and human rights, also the way he behaved in the last war, when he said no war against Iraq. But on the other hand, there are some issues like sexual ethics, like the pill, like the family life, divorced people who remarry can't get the communion. This is really alienating many Catholics all over the world.

ZAHN: You say all over the world, yet would you say the most fierce criticism comes from American Catholics?

POLITI: The most fierce criticism comes from Anglo-Saxon countries; from Germany, from France, from the Netherlands, but also people who don't criticize very loudly the pope on these issues, they follow their conscience, so they don't follow what the pope says.

ZAHN: It's very interesting to look at the statistics, because there was a new poll out today by ABC News and the "Washington Post," which shows by and large, American Catholics do respect the pope as a leader, on the other hand two thirds of them don't believe the pope at all reflects the way they want to live their lives.

POLITI: Yes, it happens a little bit the same also in Italy. Maybe they are not so strong in the criticism, but when it comes for instance, to accept homosexuality, or to accept divorce, or to accept abortion, the Italians vote just in the same way like a lot of Americans.

ZAHN: In many ways, when you try to analyze the legacy of this pope, you are looking at a major paradox of what this pope has accomplished in this church and what he has done outside of the church. And the record is somewhat mixed, is it not? POLITI: It's very mixed. I always remember that Churchill was hailed because he won World War II for Great Britain, but in the following elections, people didn't vote for the party of Churchill, but for Labor Party. So it's a little bit just the same here.

A lot of people is admiring the pope. First of all, because he has shown that faith is something vital in modern society. That faith is not something that belongs to the past. Let's just remember how he was hailed in Denver, for instance, by young people, but also by old people and different people in New York when he had his mass in New York in Central Park.

On the other hand, they feel that sometimes he's too dogmatic, too conservative in traditional things, and this is putting people at disease.

ZAHN: I know you said earlier on that you thought many followers might have been troubled by the sight of the ailing pope today. Was there any thing that you felt particularly surprising about the celebration?

POLITI: Yes, I found that in the St. Peter's Square, there was a lot of tension, a lot of anxiety for the pope. In the past years, the pope has also been admired, because his suffering had something of a martyr, there was a bit of heroism in the way he suffered and went on.

But now people see that his body is so ruined that some people began to say, oh stop, I look at you as my grandfather, and I wouldn't put my grandfather in such a difficult position. Now you should rest. Now you should stay at home and stop working.

ZAHN: Well, Marco we appreciate your dropping by to share some of your insights with us tonight. We look forward to the next book.

More to come from the Vatican. Among the thousands here, one American woman with a remarkable story. A convert from Judaism, who made the pilgrimage for this very special day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Pope John Paul II has a reputation of being liberal on social justice issues, but conservative when it comes to personal morality. How is he viewed by Americans? Joining me this evening from Kansas City is Tom Roberts. He's the editor of the "National Catholic Reporter." Good evening to you Mr. Roberts. Thanks for joining me.

TOM ROBERTS, "NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER": Good evening. Good to be with you.

O'BRIEN: Thank you very much. A new poll out says that 83 percent of Americans say they follow their own moral compass. 14 percent say that they listen to the pope on issues like that. The pope is conservative. he is very clear about dictates from the Vatican. In some ways these numbers reflect that Americans don't think he has a huge relevance to their lives, and yet he's hugely very popular. All this sounds very contradictory to me? Is it?

ROBERTS: Well, it is contradictory, but it's also, I think, nothing new. It isn't a surprise. When the pope comes and travels, Americans love him, as well as people around the world. They see, I think first of all, a personal holiness that is attractive, and also refreshing in a world where perhaps it's not the usual thing.

He also knows how to use the world stage. He's a man of integrity. He's a man of insight and letters. He's a philosopher, a theologian, but he was also an actor and so he knows how to appeal to people.

When you interview, for example, the kids who went to Denver or to Canada for the youth days, they see him as a comforting presence and dearly love them in a way as a grandfather figure, as a holy man, but if you ask them about particular issues, in a very American way, they want to weigh in on them.

They will think their own thoughts and perhaps in a way disagree with the pope in a way that he would really not countenance in a one on one situation, but that's one of the contradictions and one of the paradoxes that we sort of live with this church today.

O'BRIEN: The sex abuse scandal in the American Catholic Church was devastating to the Church. It damaged all the way up the hierarchy, but not the pope. Why not?

ROBERTS: I don't think people hold him, in large numbers, personally accountable for the sex abuse scandal. I think there are some people, some Catholics who would say he handled it badly, or didn't' hold it well, or that his leaders didn't handle it.

And I think that there's a deeper level to this. The sex abuse scandal is more today a scandal of leadership, a crisis of authority, and that goes to the kind of leadership that the pope has provided, the kind of people he's appointed, you know, moderate to progressive, and even some conservative thinkers in the church will look around the landscape and say we really don't have a leader with a stature to take us beyond this, that we've been floundering.

And, I think, there's also, one has to say, this is an unusual period in American Catholic history in terms of the level of distrust and even anger at local leadership. Catholics usually aren't that way toward their leaders. So the pope is going to have a mixed legacy, and the next pope is going to have a lot of work to do to mend fences here. It's a divided church, and one that's uncertain of where it's going.

O'BRIEN: Even in frail health, the pope has continued to travel a lot. What kind of an impact has this had on his perception in the U.S., but also worldwide?

ROBERTS: Well, I think, you know, as it was said earlier tonight, he's been seen probably by more people than anyone. He is incredibly difficult to categorize. He's a very complex person. But again he really does know how to engage people.

Our writer, John Allen often says the crowds energize the pope, even if his frail state, he seems to take a new sustenance from that engagement with people. And I think, he's in many ways, changed the papacy in that sense. People know about the pope and respect him, and respect him in a way as an individual who can talk truth to cultures across all kinds of divides, political divides and ideological divides.

So I think in that sense he certainly has placed the papacy in a realm we haven't seen before.

O'BRIEN: Tom Roberts is the editor of the "National Catholic Reporter." Thanks to have you this evening.

ROBERTS: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Coming up next, a pilgrim's progress. We'll go back to Rome to meet a convert to Catholicism whose come to Rome to be part of the church's celebration.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And welcome back. Thousands of pilgrims have come to Rome this week for the 25th anniversary of the papacy of John Paul II. Carol Klein is one of them. She came to the Vatican from New Jersey. Klein converted to Catholicism just five years ago. Welcome.

CAROL KLEIN, PILGRIM: Thank you.

ZAHN: Why was this so important for you to make this pilgrimage?

KLEIN: Well, I felt it was a once in a lifetime opportunity to see a pope celebrate his 25th anniversary. And I was so honored to have been invited through the diocese of Washington, and it was just a moment that I knew I could not miss.

ZAHN: What did you feel standing there today?

KLEIN: I was quite emotional. I think I was overwhelmed by the amount of individuals who had come to see this man at the Vatican and to see the strength of Pope John Paul II, being able to sustain himself through the hours that we all were there. Which was, I believe, close to three hours for the mass.

ZAHN: Yes, very close.

KLEIN: And it was overwhelming to look all the ways back to see the amount of people being in the front and just looking towards the back. It was just unbelievable.

ZAHN: I am absolutely fascinated by the transition you made. Just converting to Catholicism five years ago. You practiced Judaism for years. What was it about Catholicism that spoke to you? KLEIN: There was just something about walking into a parish church. I belonged to the Cathedral of St. Francis. There was always a presence that I was never alone. It was just very calming, soothing. It was something that brought out a different person in me. My whole life just transacted so differently since I converted, and it's brought a great calm to me.

ZAHN: Well, we appreciate you for sharing your story with us today.

KLEIN: Thank you.

ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us here tonight in Rome. Thanks for much for being with us. (SPEAKING IN ITALIAN). "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. Have a great night.

END

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Iraq Funding; Are There Such Things As Curses, Cubs Fans Want To Know>