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Paula Zahn Now

Osama bin Laden Behind Iraq Attacks?; All-Liberal Talk Radio

Aired December 01, 2003 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: "In Focus" tonight: Osama bin Laden. Is the terrorist mastermind behind the latest attacks in turkey and Iraq?
The Midwestern town where every home, by law, has to have a gun.

And have some of the 9/11 heroes who risked their lives in the twin towers betrayed their own families?

And good evening. Welcome to a brand-new week here.

Also ahead tonight: the left's answer to conservative talk radio, an all-liberal radio network.

And 11 shootings and one death along one stretch of highway in Ohio. We'll look at the search for the shooter or shooters. Now there's a $10,000 reward.

Plus, 140 terror suspects held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, may soon be released. We'll look at whether they may pose a danger to the U.S.

Also, the strain is showing on America's National Guard and Reserve troops, as thousands face yearlong deployments in Iraq. We're going to hear from some who have simply had enough and want out.

First, though, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now. The ex-wife of D.C.-area sniper John Allen Muhammad was in court today as a defense witness for Lee Boyd Malvo. She called Muhammad a magnet to children and a controlling parent. Malvo is on trial for the death of an FBI analyst in Virginia.

The sheriff's department in Santa Barbara, California, says someone was trying to listen in the day Michael Jackson was arrested on suspicion of child molestation. A spokesman says wireless microphones were spotted in the places around the headquarters where deputies might gather. The mikes disappeared the same day; 83,000 young men who came to the United States from countries where al Qaeda is active will no longer have to register each year with the federal government. Officials announced the rule change today, but denied it was due to legal challenges and public criticism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: We see their hallmark in places like Istanbul. I would be very surprised if it doesn't prove to have some connection to al Qaeda.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ZAHN: "In Focus" tonight: whether al Qaeda is behind the latest attacks in Turkey and Iraq.

Joining me live from Washington is our regular contributor, former Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke; and from Santa Barbara, reporter Peter Lance, author of "1,000 Years of Revenge."

Welcome to both of you.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Peter, I'm going to start with you this evening. Do you think these attacks look like the work of al Qaeda?

PETER LANCE, AUTHOR, "1,000 YEARS OF REVENGE": Whenever you see weapons of mass destruction delivered to buildings by truck, suicide bombers, you just have to go back to the original World Trade Center bombing, where there are direct links to 9/11, the embassy bombings in Africa. It has got all the earmarks of al Qaeda. No reason to suspect otherwise. And I think the Turkish government is quoted by the AP today as saying they believe it.

ZAHN: So, Torie, if this is indeed the work of al Qaeda, why isn't either the capture or the killing of Osama bin Laden a top priority?

VICTORIA CLARKE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it is a priority.

But one thing people need to remember is, the al Qaeda is a large organization. It's in 50 or 60 different countries around the world. And there are plenty of people who can and do run the operations. So getting Osama bin Laden is a priority, but getting the entire network is a bigger, more important mission.

ZAHN: What about that, Peter? Does the U.S. government have it right?

LANCE: Well, I think they have degraded -- the Bush administration is degrading the importance of getting bin Laden.

But the president, if you do a Google search after 9/11, suspect No. 1, bin Laden. The key goal in the war on terror, get bin Laden, get bin Laden. Since they haven't been able to get him and since they've had this misadventure in Iraq now, they're saying, well, he's a less important goal. But he's the key to the network. He's the internationally capable leader of it. He's a multimillionaire.

He morphed al Qaeda from a fund-raising network in 1989. He's been running it for 14 years. He's the key. He's the chairman of the board. And to say that he's not the key is to diminish the rest of the network or to inflate the rest of the network. You get bin Laden, it will be a massive step forward in the war in terror.

ZAHN: Torie, wouldn't you acknowledge that is the one key way to get the American public the message that somehow the United States is winning the war on terror? CLARKE: Well, I think the American public understands just how difficult the task is. And I think most people in this country understand the war on terror is something that's going to take quite a few years, certainly not months.

And I disagree slightly with what Peter said. I don't think you can underestimate the impact of the fact that there are other people in the al Qaeda organizations and other terrorist organizations who are perfectly capable of carrying out attacks on the United States or our allies. So it would be very nice to it is as simple as getting one person, but it's just not.

(CROSSTALK)

LANCE: I didn't say it was as simple as getting one person.

ZAHN: All right, yes. I was going to let -- Peter, let you rebut that. So you say it isn't that simple. It isn't about one man.

(CROSSTALK)

LANCE: No, look, right, it's not an either/or. But what's going on right now is a diminishment of bin Laden by the White House because they have failed to be able to make any significant inroads after the invasion of Iraq.

And with all due respect to you, Victoria -- I know you were a spokesman during that invasion -- but the fact is, there's a much exponentially greater threat to U.S. security today post the invasion than there was prior to.

ZAHN: Do you think that's true, Torie?

CLARKE: Oh, I think we have always been aware of the fact that there were other attacks. I, personally, am kind of surprised that there hasn't been another one in the United States since 9/11.

ZAHN: But what about the specific point, Torie, that Lance was making, that we are even more vulnerable today perhaps than we were pre- pre-9/11, 2001?

CLARKE: I don't agree with that for two very important reasons.

One, we're finally dealing with the threat of terrorism. For years, it was a giant iceberg that was underneath the surface mostly, smashing some ships up, the Cole, Khobar Towers, etcetera, but nobody was really doing anything about it. So now, at least we are dealing with, and with many countries around the world, dealing with the threat of terrorism.

So step one, we're dealing with it. And, two, we have greatly improved our capabilities in the United States to defend ourselves. We still have plenty of more work to do. It is no surefire guarantee that there won't be other attacks. I think there will be. But I think we've made some significant progress. ZAHN: All right, Peter, let's go back to the point you were making in closing, that you think the U.S. has degraded its effort by its involvement in Iraq. But are you willing to give the U.S. administration any credit for making any inroads in the war against terror here?

LANCE: The biggest inroad was the invasion of Afghanistan, absolutely.

But since the invasion of Iraq, where my book shows -- and the president admitted on September 17 -- no connection between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein with respect to 9/11, no weapons of mass destruction -- now that we have decapitated that regime, there's evidence that al Qaeda is infiltrating Iraq. We have got a protracted guerrilla war. You have American good men and women dying every day. It's open-ended; $87 billion, with a B, bailout.

And we went after the wrong target with respect to Saddam Hussein. No. We're exponentially more dangerous, because now there's the potential for a Shiite-elected majority to run that country, to produce another Taliban-like Afghanistan or ayatollah-like Iran. Much, much more dangerous.

ZAHN: We have got to leave it there this evening. Peter Lance in Santa Barbara, Victoria Clarke in Washington, thank you for both of your perspectives.

CLARKE: Thanks.

ZAHN: And the $25 million question at the center of all of this, just where is Osama bin Laden? That's the amount of cash the United States government is willing to pay to see bin Laden caught or killed.

With us now from Washington is Robert Baer. He is a former CIA operative and the author of the book "Sleeping With the Devil." And joining us from London this evening, Sajjan Gohel. He is the director of International Security with the Asia-Pacific Foundation.

Welcome to both of you.

(CROSSTALK)

ROBERT BAER, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: Good evening.

ZAHN: Bob, where do you think Osama bin Laden is?

BAER: The best explanations of where he disappeared to that I have heard is the northwest frontier province of Pakistan, which is pretty much outside Pakistan's authority, government authority. Or, I've heard this disturbing rumor that he's in Iran, which would certainly shift the whole -- this Middle East conflict.

ZAHN: Now, Sajjan, you have got a completely different theory. You actually believe Osama bin Laden, if he's alive, is in a Pakistani urban area? SAJJAN GOHEL, ASIA-PACIFIC FOUNDATION: Well, if we look at the fact that key al Qaeda terrorists have been captured in urban major heartlands, such as Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Ramzi Binalshibh, Abu Zubaydah, they were captured in major urban heartlands, inside Pakistan, along with their entourages. And it's more than possible that Osama bin Laden is hiding out somewhere.

We have to remember that he needs to be near communications. He needs to be near medical areas, because he does suffer a lot from his kidneys. He needs to be accessible. We cannot rule out the fact he is in some mountain area next to Afghanistan and Pakistan, such as the federally administered tribal areas, which is the sort of the bandit country, the Wild West of Pakistan. It is possible he is in either of these locations. But he is definitely somewhere in Pakistan. I believe that.

ZAHN: Bob, our last guest made the argument that the hunt for bin Laden has been compromised by resources being diverted to Iraq. Do you agree with that?

BAER: Oh, absolutely.

I think that this whole Iraq conflict has just fueled support for bin Laden. It's been misperceived in the Middle East. It's getting worse with these attacks on Samarra. It is going to add to recruits. And even if we were to get bin Laden today, we would have to quickly settle the conflict in Iraq.

ZAHN: Sajjan, what is it going to take to find Osama bin Laden, if he is indeed alive?

GOHEL: Well, firstly, we need better intelligence on the ground.

We need full and more cooperation from the Pakistani authorities, who, albeit, have done something in helping the CIA and the FBI, doing a good job in capturing already key al Qaeda terrorists. But we need more, greater cooperation, because Osama bin Laden is still out there. He's still abled. He's still giving out his audiotaped message and is still giving the message for global jihad for his affiliate.

So, unfortunately, at the moment, we have not done enough to capture these key top individuals such as Osama bin Laden, and also not forget his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, who is as much playing a key role in global terrorist activity as Osama bin Laden.

ZAHN: Sajjan has just made an interesting point, Bob. In the absence of that kind of updated intelligence, will the FBI or CIA be successful here?

BAER: I absolutely agree 100 percent.

Without local cooperation, without people getting behind this war on terrorism, we are not going to solve anything. We have to bring these countries around. We have to get people in Karachi, if he's up in the frontier province, or even Afghanistan, to run these people down. And without that, we can't do it, either the CIA or the FBI, alone.

ZAHN: Sajjan, are you optimistic or pessimistic that these efforts will succeed? Sajjan?

GOHEL: Well, I'm afraid, at the moment, I'm quite -- at the moment,I'm afraid I'm quite pessimistic about the situation in general.

Post-September the 11th, the United States naturally turned to countries in the region to help it fight the war against terrorism. It's not fair to expect the U.S. to do this on its own. However, we've turned to countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the two countries that nurtured and funded and sponsored the Taliban militia, that provided sanctuary to al Qaeda. We're now expecting these countries to aid us in this war against terrorism.

And I don't believe that these countries have suddenly seen the light, that they see al Qaeda or the Taliban as their enemies. It's a well-known fact that Pakistani intelligence, a large number of them, still have sympathetic ties with al Qaeda, with the Taliban. And until we get proper, whole-hearted support from people on the ground from these countries, I don't believe we will ever see or will be able to capture Osama bin Laden.

ZAHN: Sajjan Gohel, Bob Baer, we got to end it on that note tonight. Thank you for joining us tonight.

BAER: Thank you.

ZAHN: Coming up, we're going to look at whether hundreds of so- called enemy combatants held at the U.S. Navy base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, should be sent home.

And there may soon be a new liberal counterpoint to right-wing radio -- don't say that too fast -- an all-liberal network. Could Al Franken be the left's answer to Rush Limbaugh?

And yet another side-effect of the 9/11 terror attacks. Have firefighter heroes betrayed their own families?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The Bush administration may be one step closer tonight to releasing scores of detainees held in Guantanamo Bay. "TIME" magazine is reporting that at least 140 detainees never charged with a crime are scheduled to go free.

What's prompting that decision? Let's turn to our regular contributor, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.

ZAHN: Glad to have you back.

TOOBIN: Good to be here.

ZAHN: First of all, are you 100 percent sure these detainees that are isolated in this piece are not terrorists?

TOOBIN: Well, no one could be 100 percent sure, but most of these detainees have been in custody for close to two years now.

And I think, if the government hasn't figured out that they're terrorists now, they are never going to figure it out. So anyone released, I think it's safe to say, is safe to go.

ZAHN: There is concern, though, that these are dangerous men?

TOOBIN: They wouldn't be there unless we thought they were dangerous.

But, remember, there are 13-year-olds. There are a couple 15- year-olds. There's some old people there. I think, if people get released, they are only going to be released because the government, the military, is really sure that there is no danger from them.

ZAHN: You are headed down to Guantanamo Bay?

TOOBIN: I am.

ZAHN: What is it that you expect to find?

TOOBIN: Well, I expect to find a prison camp that operates outside the rules of law. It is really an extraordinary situation here.

ZAHN: Now, wait. Are you saying that means the treatment is illegal?

TOOBIN: No, it's not the treatment.

It is that the status of these prisoners is almost unprecedented in our history, because the government has said -- and this is heading to the Supreme Court -- that these prisoners, they are not prisoners of war. They're not criminal defendants. They're what is called enemy combatants and they're outside our legal system. They have no right to file a case, to ask to have a lawyer. And that's an interesting and unprecedented situation. And I want to see what it looks like.

ZAHN: Well, let me ask you this. There are a number of Americans who could care less how these detainees are being treated. Why should they care?

TOOBIN: I would say there's a majority of Americans who don't care how these people are treated, because they are al Qaeda suspect, and that's enough to lock them up.

I think why people should care is that rules that apply to some eventually apply to everyone. And I think it's an interesting and important precedent to be set here that people captured have no rights of review at all by the legal system. But, maybe under these extraordinary circumstances, that's the right decision.

ZAHN: What is it, then, that the Supreme Court has to decide?

TOOBIN: The important thing they have to -- they are not going to decide whether these people should be released. That's not the issue.

The issue is, do they have the right to sue and say, prove that I deserve to be incarcerated? That's all that they're deciding, is whether they have the right to sue, or whether, as the government insists, they are outside the legal system, they have no legal rights at all, and it is solely up to the government when and how they should be released.

ZAHN: Well, have a safe trip. And we look forward to seeing some of the reports you file from there.

TOOBIN: OK.

ZAHN: Jeffrey Toobin, thanks so much.

We're going to look at a smalltown's controversial move to require every home to have a gun.

Also, trouble in the ranks. As more than 200,000 reservists and National Guard troops serve in the war on terrorism, we're going to hear from some who say a year on duty is just way too much.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS DRITSCHEL, U.S. ARMY SPECIALIST: I don't have to go. I don't see any reason why I should have to go if I've been there once already within the past year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Jeff Flock headed there for the showdown.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's just your basic little .22.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Nate Cook (ph) already has a shotgun, handgun, BB gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a squirrel-killing machine.

FLOCK: But he doesn't want anybody telling him and the rest of Geuda Springs, Kansas, they have to have one. John Brewer, on the other hand, does.

With no police in this tiny rural farm town of just 200 people, Brewer got a law passed requiring every head of household to -- quote -- "maintain a firearm together with ammunition therefor.

JOHN BREWER, CITY COUNCILMAN: The sheriff can't get here in time. The sheriff is 15 minutes away at 100 miles an hour.

FLOCK: Fearing a court challenge, the law only provides a $10 fine if you don't have a gun and exempts anyone who essentially doesn't want one.

BREWER: There is no teeth in it.

FLOCK (on camera): So what's your point?

BREWER: My point is, is that we have to have a law on our books to cover our butt when it comes to protecting ourselves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see the city being held liable for any accidents that may or may not happen in the future.

FLOCK (voice-over): The town had a thriving past, thanks to therapeutic springs that packed local hotels and gambling houses back in the days when everybody wore a gun. The governor once put out a reward when somebody shot the mayor and sheriff. That was the last time Geuda Springs was in the news.

BREWER: Hopefully, after tonight, this will all go away just as quick as it came.

FLOCK (on camera): Indeed. Tonight's council meeting determines whether guns become law here in Geuda Springs or whether the idea gets shot down.

I'm Jeff Flock, CNN, in Geuda Springs, Kansas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Conservative radio listeners have Rush Limbaugh. But is there a place on the dial for a liberal radio network? And will Americans actually listen?

Also, 11 shootings on five miles of Ohio highway, the latest developments, as police try to track down the shooter or shooters.

And, tomorrow, Scott Peterson heads back to court. This week, attention turns to whether the trial location may be moved because of all the massive publicity.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back.

Here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.

The coroner in Cincinnati says a man who died after being subdued by police had both cocaine and PCP in his system. Nathaniel Jones, who weighed 350 pounds, attacked an officer who was questioning his erratic behavior. Six officers have been put on administrative leave, pending an investigation.

Illusionist Roy Horn may be home from the hospital by the end of the year, that word today from his publicist. Horn has been recovering from injuries he suffered when he was bitten by one of his white tigers during a performance in Las Vegas.

First lady Laura Bush welcomed the official White House Christmas tree today. It's a Fraser fir, nearly 19 feet tall. It was grown in Wisconsin. It arrived, as you can see, at the White House by horse- drawn carriage.

The decision by President Bush to call up thousands more reserve troops to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan have consequences far beyond the fighting.

Deborah Feyerick has this exclusive story of one soldier and the price he's having to pay.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Army Reserve Captain Steven McAlpin was ready to serve again in Afghanistan. He had been recommended for two Bronze Stars for helping rebuild the country.

GOV. GEORGE PATAKI (R), NEW YORK: Captain McAlpin, New York thanks you for your service to our country.

FEYERICK: Even being honored by New York's governor.

Now the Army Reserve is kicking him out.

CAPT. STEVE MCALPIN, U.S. ARMY RESERVE: "Captain McAlpin, you are hereby notified that you have been removed from the battle roster of the 401st Civil Affairs Battalion due to a loss of confidence in your leadership. "

FEYERICK: The Army is charging McAlpin with insubordination. But McAlpin says he was just sticking up for his soldiers.

S. MCALPIN: They're asking these soldiers to go up and beyond, when, legally, they're entitled to some rights of a stabilization period following a deployment.

FEYERICK: Army policy gives reservists 12 months home before being redeployed. And they can't be involuntary mobilized before that time is up, though the Army can change the policy. McAlpin's special operations soldiers were asked to sign a waiver, returning them to combat early.

DRITSCHEL: I didn't see why we had to sign a waiver.

FEYERICK: Under pressure, Christopher Dritschel says he signed the waiver, then tore it up.

DRITSCHEL: I don't have to go. I don't see any reason why I should have to go if I've been there once already within the past year.

FEYERICK: Dritschel says a lot of soldiers were confused the Army asked, rather than told them to go back.

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, there is a lot of pressure to sign a waiver to redeploy, when it's less than a year between tours. We don't know how much pressure was placed on the troops. Sometimes, they don't know what they're signing.

FEYERICK: Captain McAlpin was downgraded to an inactive unit. He packed up his things at the base Monday, his 25-year Army Reserve career now in limbo.

(on camera): An Army Reserve spokesman declined discussing the insubordination charges or any details of McAlpin's case. The spokesman called it an administrative action, saying the Army is focused on fighting a war.

Deborah Feyerick, CNN, Rochester, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Joining me now live is Patrick McAlpin, the brother of Army Reserve Captain Steven McAlpin.

Mr. McAlpin, welcome.

Do you think the Army gave your brother a fair shake?

PATRICK MCALPIN, BROTHER OF U.S. ARMY RESERVIST: No, I don't, Paula.

I think that they're kind of running around, trying to basically find something.

(CROSSTALK)

P. MCALPIN: Steve is just a -- is a wonderful brother. He's a -- everyone looks up to him. And he always enforced what a wonderful institution the Army is. He says that, if it wasn't for the Army, he doesn't know where he would be. The Army is his life. He loves the Army and everything that it stands for.

And his soldiers look up to him, because they respect and respond to that.

ZAHN: But, Patrick, when you say the Army is running around looking for something, what do you mean by that?

P. MCALPIN: Well, I think I misspoke. I really don't know. That was the first words out of my mouth, and a little confused.

ZAHN: Oh, that's all right. It's hard with these live hookups.

But were you aware of any problems he might have had in Afghanistan, when he was serving there?

P. MCALPIN: I don't believe he was in any problems over in Afghanistan. As a matter of fact, he was cited by the governor, or the -- yes, the governor of New York, Pataki. He was nominated for two Bronze Stars.

He's really a wonderful, wonderful brother. He was awarded the -- and I was going off on a bit of a tangent here, but just I want you to know a little bit of background on Steve. Steve served in Bosnia, the first rotation there. And when he was over there, there was an interpreter named Emil Lokanovich (ph). Now, Steve met him and he liked him. He was a good guy and always stayed very -- he always stayed very active around the community in different countries.

And Emil being an interpreter and being as smart as he is, he got permission from his parents to have Steve bring Emil over to this country. And once he was here, he paid for all his education, put him through SUNY Brockport College, never asked for anything in return, put him up in his home for 3 1/2 years, and paid for all his food, over $70,000 in expense.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Wow. You have obvious reason to be proud of him.

Just a final question for you, Patrick. What is it that your brother expect to happen here?

P. MCALPIN: What he expects to happen?

ZAHN: Yes.

P. MCALPIN: All he wants, really, is to back to combat. He wants to go back over to Afghanistan. He wants to be there with his guys. These guys look up to him. I look up to him. I've never met anybody like Steve. He's a wonderful, wonderful brother. He's a wonderful person. And he's probably the most giving person I've ever met.

When I said that Steve took care of his education and everything, Steve is a teacher of special kids. He's not rich. He doesn't have a lot of money, but he did it out of the kindness of his heart, never asked for anything in return. And Emil, just to go back to that for one more second, he ended up, in those 3 1/2 years, he got two degrees with a 4.0 average.

ZAHN: Wow, that's...

MCALPIN: He plans on going back to Bosnia and taking care of his war-torn country.

ZAHN: Well, with good reason, you wanted to share that story with us this evening. We're going to continue to follow this story to see where these insubordination charges might go.

Patrick McAlpin, thank you for talking about your brother to us tonight.

P. MCALPIN: No problem. There's absolutely nothing more that my brother enjoys than the Army. Everything he is and everything he wants to be is the Army. It's all he ever talks about.

ZAHN: We are going to end it there. Patrick McAlpin, again, appreciate your time this evening.

P. MCALPIN: Thank you.

ZAHN: Tune to the left? We're going to look at what could be Rush Limbaugh's new competition, an all-liberal radio network.

And firefighters who risked their lives at the twin towers, are they leaving their families for the wives of their fallen comrades?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Move over, Rush Limbaugh. A liberal radio network may soon be challenging the conservative viewpoint. A company called Progress Media is hoping to buy up major-market stations and put liberal voices on the air. Potential hosts include Al Franken and Janeane Garofalo. The goal is to leave or give left-minded listeners and personalities a chance to sound off. Will it work?

Well, Mark Walsh thinks so. The CEO of Progress Media joins us here in the studio.

We would expect you to say that, Mark.

And joining us from Philadelphia is radio talk show personality Michael Smerconish.

Welcome.

So, is it going to work, Michael? Are you nervous?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: No, I'm not nervous.

Listen, I'm for capitalism, but I think this gentleman is creating supply before there is demand. There is no demand for liberal talkers in the United States. If there were such a demand, then, right now, Paula, he would be able to identify for us a handful of individuals who are doing well in singular markets that he intends to roll out nationally. But I'll bet he can't do that.

ZAHN: Can you do that, Mark? Where is the demand?

MARK WALSH, CEO, PROGRESS MEDIA: There are some folks, to his point, that are doing quite well with individual shows that are liberal in nature, Randi Rhodes in Florida, Mike Malloy, a couple of others.

But I think the important point for the viewers to remember -- and Michael as well. And I'm a fan of Michael. I used to listen to him when I lived in Philadelphia. I think the important thing to remember is that some of the liberal shows have failed in the past because we were stand-alone shows in a sea of right-wing talk. And radio is not a destination listening medium. Television is destination-viewing medium. So no one is going to tune in for two hours of a specific liberal tilt and then go back to their Rush Limbaughs and their Sean Hannitys. So that's why we're having an entire broadcast day of 18 hours and buying up to seven stations in major markets to control our own destiny.

ZAHN: You still don't buy that, Michael?

SMERCONISH: No, I don't buy it. And some of the names that are bandied about. I mean, Al Franken is a very funny guy. The book is a hysterical read. But people think it's easy.

ZAHN: It's also a best-seller, Michael.

SMERCONISH: Listen, but people think it's easy, Paula.

Maybe you get this as a television personality. My friends think that I sit around for 3 1/2 hours and kibitz, and then go home and eat chocolates and watch the soaps. But there's a lot more to it than that. And just because al Franken is funny and has written a great book does not mean he'll translate into the talk radio world.

WALSH: Well, Michael, I think that's fair -- to focus specifically on Al, I was just with Al hours ago talking about this specific point.

In fact, he is going to have a surrounding cast. Each of our shows will have multiple personalities in front of the mike. We will not try to mimic what Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity and the rest of the crew does with a solo voice, spewing out an individual message to the dittoheads that echo that voice in a chamber that is specifically theirs for three hours.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Why wouldn't you do that? That's so successful.

SMERCONISH: No, it's only successful to the dittoheads who insist upon hearing their opinions

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: But they keep on coming back.

SMERCONISH: They come back because they hear what they want to hear.

A significant portion of the American audience wants a host to tell them what they already know. And we think that's already being done very well by folks like Michael and Rush Limbaugh and many other great hosts. We believe in formatic purity, an entire broadcast day that is entertaining, that is funny, that is informative, that isn't so didactic.

We think there's an audience out there -- we know there's an audience out there that is unserved because of the didactic nature of individual broadcasting. Ours is a broader, more entertaining

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: All right, are you following that, Michael?

SMERCONISH: I'm trying to. You're going to have to dumb it down if you want to succeed in the talk radio world.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Forget the didactic part of it. Go back to the core argument.

WALSH: Maybe that's part of the problem. We've been dumbing down radio way too much so far. Our audience is not to be dumbed down to.

(CROSSTALK)

SMERCONISH: Listen, my employer in Philadelphia is Infinity Radio. And they're one of the giants in this industry.

And they would ditch me tomorrow -- and I love Infinity and I think they like me. But if there were someone who could get better ratings and sell more advertising, regardless of their political stripe -- it's not about Republicans or Democrats, conservatives or liberals. It's about who can move the needle and sell advertising. And whomever that person is, they're going to be on the air.

WALSH: And I would argue that, not only do I agree with your business standpoint, Michael, but I would argue that we've never had people on the air that are entertaining -- or as entertaining as we need to for a full broadcast day.

You're right. It's about numbers. Radio is about numbers. That's why we're buying five to seven stations in major markets to control our destiny. A mini-Infinity? No. But certainly a way to control our ability to get the voice out to people that have not heard any -- any -- liberal programming for years.

ZAHN: Let me ask you this. What does your research show that the American public is hungry for?

WALSH: America wants to be entertained.

If you look at the number of people that, in America, listen to progressive -- rather, listen conservative talk radio, a significant portion of them -- and Rush would be the first to admit this -- I assume Michael would as well, unless his show is the unique sort of outlier of this -- the significant portion of people who listen to Rush are listening because they want to hear what the other side thinks.

We believe there's an underserved audience out there that wants to be entertained. We are not going to take that dramatic a liberal or Democratic slant. Those who suggest we are, are wrong. What we're going to do is entertain our listeners. And doing that with a full 18-hour broadcast day in major markets with names that, to Michael's point, may not be radio household names now, but we look to find the stars of the future.

Remember, Rush Limbaugh was the P.R. guy for the Kansas City Royals before he became a radio personality. And now, of course, he controls a major audience. We look to mimic that with some great entertainers on our own.

ZAHN: So, Michael, will you come back and, when these folks are on the air, let us know what you think of them?

SMERCONISH: Oh, absolutely.

Listen, I'm all for competition. I just think it's a risky business model. It's like franchising a restaurant nationwide when you don't even have a single restaurant in any particular city that's selling a lot of burgers.

WALSH: It's not a franchise, Michael. We're buying the stations. In fact, one of the stations is in Philly. So we look forward to owning the station which will compete with you.

SMERCONISH: Hey, bring it on.

(LAUGHTER)

WALSH: I heard somebody else say that once.

ZAHN: The stakes are set very high here.

Yes, I remember that, too.

Mark Walsh, Michael Smerconish, thank you for your time.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Who is behind the highway shootings in Ohio? Inside the mind of a possible serial sniper.

And taking care of their own goes wrong, firefighters, 9/11 heroes, reportedly walking out on their own wives and kids to join the families of their fallen comrades.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: A stretch of road in Ohio has become a shooting gallery. Since May, 11 cars have been shot at. Just last week, one of the bullets claimed the life of a 62-year-old passenger in car. And as police track down leads, they are asking for help in finding the killer. And a $10,000 reward was announced in the case today.

Joining us from Columbus is reporter Bruce Cadwallader, who is covering the story for "The Columbus Dispatch." And from San Francisco this evening, we're joined by author and former FBI profiler Candice DeLong. Welcome to both of you.

First off, Bruce, do people close to the investigation believe you're looking at a serial sniper here?

BRUCE CADWALLADER, "THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH": Well, they've only positively linked two of these bullet fragments, Paula.

But 11 shootings since May is a crime trend they can no longer ignore. And we now have a state-federal-local task force now investigating these shootings. They're saying that this could be a drive-by motorist, could be a juvenile in the woods. It could someone with more serious intent.

ZAHN: Candice, in your opinion, what do you think we're looking at here?

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, statistically, these crimes tend to be committed by one person. It probably is the same person.

Of course, they've only been able to link two of them. But, if we learned anything 14 months in D.C., it's that the rules don't necessarily apply anymore.

ZAHN: So can a profiler help at this stage of the investigation?

DELONG: Well, there's not a great deal to profile. There's not a lot of close-contact interaction between the victim and the offender. He's shooting from a distance.

Pretty much, mostly, what can be said is simply statistics taken into consideration, probably a white male, probably someone acting alone. But, of course, a profile is just a tool. And, actually, the forensic investigation, witnesses' identification, and good hard-time police work is probably to solve it.

ZAHN: Bruce, in the meantime, I know locals have found a way to avoid particular stretches of the highway. That's a little harder for folks traveling longer distances.

How is the community continuing to react to the fear surrounding this case?

CADWALLADER: We can honestly say there's no panic in Columbus, but motorists have told us they have changed their routes to work. They've altered their life stiles. This is a very familiar stretch of highway to some of us. It's very unnerving that it's now become a danger zone for us.

And people are talking about taking their children elsewhere. I know my family avoided the area this weekend for Thanksgiving. So it's being talked about at gas stations, restaurants along that route. Cincinnati and Cleveland TV stations are warning people not to come to Columbus because of this. So it's not to a panic, but it's a concern.

ZAHN: Do you see increased police presence on the highway now, Bruce?

CADWALLADER: Yes, Highway Patrol, specifically our state police, have parked cruisers along the median of this five-mile stretch of the freeway routinely. Columbus police have a helicopter that flies 18 hours a day.

The sheriff's office is the lead investigation agency on this case. They have been present and also covertly in the woods and in the subdivisions along this route, looking for the sniper or the shooter.

ZAHN: Well, Bruce and Candice, thank you for bringing this all into perspective for us this evening. We appreciate it.

CADWALLADER: Thank you.

DELONG: You're welcome.

ZAHN: And why would some of New York's bravest firefighters who risked their lives on 9/11 betray their own families?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: One New York tabloid calls it a dirty little secret. About a dozen New York firefighters assigned to look after the families of colleagues lost in the 9/11 attacks have actually left their wives for the widows they were supposed to be helping. At least one wife is calling it heartbreaking and disgusting.

Jason Carroll reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This picture of the Sazuka (ph) family was taken on their vacation in Maryland last year. Two months after it was taken, John Sazuka, husband and father, said he was leaving.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm left in a situation that I don't even -- I don't know what to do, you know? And I can't turn to him, who I've trusted and turned to for the past 20 years. He's gone. And I -- he just doesn't want the responsibilities of the five of us.

CARROLL: Sazuka is a firefighter in Brooklyn. His wife, Susan (ph), says her husband left her for a 9/11 widow of another firefighter who she says he was supposed to be counseling as part of a fire department program.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like he had a job to do with helping after 9/11, and it's like he abused it. He just hides behind lies and blame. And I don't know who he is anymore.

CARROLL: When reached by phone, John Sazuka said he was not counseling the 9/11 widow he left his family for. He says they met through mutual friends. Sazuka also says his marriage was also in trouble before that. A source in the New York Fire Department told CNN, at least eight firefighters left their wives for 9/11 widows, some of whom they had been counseling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I'm just trying to help out and you're giving me a hard time. That's really nuts.

CARROLL: A year and a half ago, the department made a training video that addressed the bond that can develop between a firefighter and a widow he's counseling. Sazuka says she decided to come forward, so other firemen's wives in the same situation can have a voice.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: And the New York City Fire Department defends its program, saying it has helped a number of 9/11 widows. But, of course, here at the Sazuka home, the belief is that the department should just be using certified counselors -- Paula.

ZAHN: Jason Carroll, thanks so much.

Now, there are a dozen wives who know this pain firsthand. One says the New York Fire Department saw it happening, did nothing to stop it.

Mary Koenig's husband left her and their two children for the widow of a firefighter killed on 9/11. She joins us now with her story.

Thanks so much for joining us.

MARY KOENIG, FIREFIGHTER'S WIFE: Hi.

ZAHN: I know this isn't easy for you to talk about. What is it that you want the audience to know about the breakup of your marriage?

KOENIG: I've heard a lot of things saying that we had domestic problems and that he was going to leave anyway.

Well, we'll never really know what happened and what the problems were, because I never had the chance to have a husband after September 11. I never had the chance for him to come home and love his wife and love his family and discuss with me the things that went on that day and the things that he was feeling.

ZAHN: You obviously are hurt and have reason to feel bitter about this. What is it that you want to happen? Why are you speaking publicly about this?

KOENIG: I think the fire department has seen mistakes that were made.

And I know, after the McKenzie (ph) report, they did put into place a plan for the next time. But, again, it's just a plan and it is only going to be voluntary. And unless these men seek out the counseling, they don't have to have it. Well, sometimes, they're not strong enough to ask for help and they need to be pushed. And this was a case that they needed to be pushed. And next time, I'm sure there will be many more cases where they need to be pushed. ZAHN: I want to share with our audience now something the Fire Department of New York issued, a statement about liaisons. They said, "Recognizing the particularly difficult and emotionally sensitive work done by liaisons, the department provided special counseling programs for them and their families."

And we just saw a little piece of that in Jason Carroll's package. Was it too little too late or just not effective, as far as you're concerned?

KOENIG: It was on a voluntary basis. And, as a family, I would have insisted that my husband go with me to counseling.

But, in the beginning, they were busy on the pile, and they were busy with the widows, and they were busy going to funerals, and they were busy taking them to the site and to get benefits from the city. And there was just no time for their families. Had it been ordered that they had to spend time in counseling, then maybe it would not have been too late.

I do know that there were programs available. I chose to take some, because my family was feeling the effects of September 11 almost immediately. But he chose not to. He chose to be elsewhere.

ZAHN: I know it's really difficult for you to separate yourself from your situation. But, certainly, you've talked with some other women who have confronted what you're facing right now.

Do you have any understanding on an emotional level what might have happened to some of these men and why they would have left their wives for these women that they were counseling?

KOENIG: I know, from the beginning, that my husband spent almost every day with this woman. And so, after a while, it was a routine. For six weeks, he did nothing but be there for them, support them, take them out, take them to doctors appointments, take them up to the city, take them for DNA samples, take them for benefits, take them for interviews. And then the funeral came and then what?

Was he just supposed to end that new life that he had gotten accustomed to for six weeks and go back and live with his family? How was he supposed to know how after that?

ZAHN: Can you kind of understand how someone could fall in love with someone that they've created an intimate bond with just through this program?

KOENIG: I definitely understand, yes. They did very intimate things together. They had to make funeral arrangements together. He gave the eulogy for her. I understand how it came to be. I believe it could have been stopped. And of course I know why she loves him, because I obviously have that same problem.

(LAUGHTER)

ZAHN: It's so sad. Well, Mary, thank you.

We're going to bring Dr. Drew Pinsky into our controversy now to talk about the indirect effect of the 9/11 attacks and how it is bringing more pain to a lot of New Yorkers. What kind of dynamic is at work here?

Well, let's introduce you to relationship expert and addiction specialist Dr. Drew Pinsky, who joins us from Los Angeles.

Doctor, I'm sure you had the same problem I did listening to Mary. You can hear the very raw pain in her voice.

Does this make much sense, for a fire department to send folks who worked on the pile and witnessed what they did to do the kind of work that they're expected to do with these other grieving families?

DR. DREW PINSKY, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: In an ideal world, it would make sense, if humans weren't what they are, the frail beings that they are in the face of serious trauma.

I wish that this were sufficient, but the reality is that this is really a recipe for boundary problems. People who have been traumatized, people whose very self is tied up in being a rescuer, as these firemen are, women who are looking for life preservers, the two of them sharing sort of a reproduction of the past -- in other words, they can sort of, in a fused state, can remember what it was like before the horrible trauma and sort of create for themselves a safe haven.

It's a very, very painful and very human sort of a condition here that we're talking about. And it's unfortunate that, no, it's not enough to send a layperson in to do counseling. People have been to be highly trained in how to maintain healthy distances from people whom they're trying to counsel.

ZAHN: How much, do you think, of this is survivor's guilt?

PINSKY: Some of it is survivor's guilt. There's a ton of different emotions tied up into this, as I was saying.

Some of it is just having been traumatized, both the wife and firefighter. Some of it is both of them looking for a life preserver. Some of it is, as you're saying, guilt or other affects. They're just trying to manage overwhelming feelings. And it's very, very sad that then they sort of fall into these very fused and idealized relationships and the families to whom they're committed suffer as a result.

Again, it's a recipe for boundary problems. People don't -- aren't really trained on how to maintain healthy distances from one another without being overtaken by their pain and having to then rescue them, particularly with the kind of person who is committed to being a rescuer.

ZAHN: Dr. Drew Pinsky, thank you. Mary Koenig, again, thank you for sharing your personal story with us this evening.

KOENIG: Thank you.

ZAHN: That wraps it up for all of us here tonight. Thanks so much for dropping by. Hope you're back with us again tomorrow night, same time, same place.

"LARRY KING LIVE" is next.

Have a good night.

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Radio>


Aired December 1, 2003 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: "In Focus" tonight: Osama bin Laden. Is the terrorist mastermind behind the latest attacks in turkey and Iraq?
The Midwestern town where every home, by law, has to have a gun.

And have some of the 9/11 heroes who risked their lives in the twin towers betrayed their own families?

And good evening. Welcome to a brand-new week here.

Also ahead tonight: the left's answer to conservative talk radio, an all-liberal radio network.

And 11 shootings and one death along one stretch of highway in Ohio. We'll look at the search for the shooter or shooters. Now there's a $10,000 reward.

Plus, 140 terror suspects held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, may soon be released. We'll look at whether they may pose a danger to the U.S.

Also, the strain is showing on America's National Guard and Reserve troops, as thousands face yearlong deployments in Iraq. We're going to hear from some who have simply had enough and want out.

First, though, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now. The ex-wife of D.C.-area sniper John Allen Muhammad was in court today as a defense witness for Lee Boyd Malvo. She called Muhammad a magnet to children and a controlling parent. Malvo is on trial for the death of an FBI analyst in Virginia.

The sheriff's department in Santa Barbara, California, says someone was trying to listen in the day Michael Jackson was arrested on suspicion of child molestation. A spokesman says wireless microphones were spotted in the places around the headquarters where deputies might gather. The mikes disappeared the same day; 83,000 young men who came to the United States from countries where al Qaeda is active will no longer have to register each year with the federal government. Officials announced the rule change today, but denied it was due to legal challenges and public criticism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: We see their hallmark in places like Istanbul. I would be very surprised if it doesn't prove to have some connection to al Qaeda.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ZAHN: "In Focus" tonight: whether al Qaeda is behind the latest attacks in Turkey and Iraq.

Joining me live from Washington is our regular contributor, former Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke; and from Santa Barbara, reporter Peter Lance, author of "1,000 Years of Revenge."

Welcome to both of you.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Peter, I'm going to start with you this evening. Do you think these attacks look like the work of al Qaeda?

PETER LANCE, AUTHOR, "1,000 YEARS OF REVENGE": Whenever you see weapons of mass destruction delivered to buildings by truck, suicide bombers, you just have to go back to the original World Trade Center bombing, where there are direct links to 9/11, the embassy bombings in Africa. It has got all the earmarks of al Qaeda. No reason to suspect otherwise. And I think the Turkish government is quoted by the AP today as saying they believe it.

ZAHN: So, Torie, if this is indeed the work of al Qaeda, why isn't either the capture or the killing of Osama bin Laden a top priority?

VICTORIA CLARKE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it is a priority.

But one thing people need to remember is, the al Qaeda is a large organization. It's in 50 or 60 different countries around the world. And there are plenty of people who can and do run the operations. So getting Osama bin Laden is a priority, but getting the entire network is a bigger, more important mission.

ZAHN: What about that, Peter? Does the U.S. government have it right?

LANCE: Well, I think they have degraded -- the Bush administration is degrading the importance of getting bin Laden.

But the president, if you do a Google search after 9/11, suspect No. 1, bin Laden. The key goal in the war on terror, get bin Laden, get bin Laden. Since they haven't been able to get him and since they've had this misadventure in Iraq now, they're saying, well, he's a less important goal. But he's the key to the network. He's the internationally capable leader of it. He's a multimillionaire.

He morphed al Qaeda from a fund-raising network in 1989. He's been running it for 14 years. He's the key. He's the chairman of the board. And to say that he's not the key is to diminish the rest of the network or to inflate the rest of the network. You get bin Laden, it will be a massive step forward in the war in terror.

ZAHN: Torie, wouldn't you acknowledge that is the one key way to get the American public the message that somehow the United States is winning the war on terror? CLARKE: Well, I think the American public understands just how difficult the task is. And I think most people in this country understand the war on terror is something that's going to take quite a few years, certainly not months.

And I disagree slightly with what Peter said. I don't think you can underestimate the impact of the fact that there are other people in the al Qaeda organizations and other terrorist organizations who are perfectly capable of carrying out attacks on the United States or our allies. So it would be very nice to it is as simple as getting one person, but it's just not.

(CROSSTALK)

LANCE: I didn't say it was as simple as getting one person.

ZAHN: All right, yes. I was going to let -- Peter, let you rebut that. So you say it isn't that simple. It isn't about one man.

(CROSSTALK)

LANCE: No, look, right, it's not an either/or. But what's going on right now is a diminishment of bin Laden by the White House because they have failed to be able to make any significant inroads after the invasion of Iraq.

And with all due respect to you, Victoria -- I know you were a spokesman during that invasion -- but the fact is, there's a much exponentially greater threat to U.S. security today post the invasion than there was prior to.

ZAHN: Do you think that's true, Torie?

CLARKE: Oh, I think we have always been aware of the fact that there were other attacks. I, personally, am kind of surprised that there hasn't been another one in the United States since 9/11.

ZAHN: But what about the specific point, Torie, that Lance was making, that we are even more vulnerable today perhaps than we were pre- pre-9/11, 2001?

CLARKE: I don't agree with that for two very important reasons.

One, we're finally dealing with the threat of terrorism. For years, it was a giant iceberg that was underneath the surface mostly, smashing some ships up, the Cole, Khobar Towers, etcetera, but nobody was really doing anything about it. So now, at least we are dealing with, and with many countries around the world, dealing with the threat of terrorism.

So step one, we're dealing with it. And, two, we have greatly improved our capabilities in the United States to defend ourselves. We still have plenty of more work to do. It is no surefire guarantee that there won't be other attacks. I think there will be. But I think we've made some significant progress. ZAHN: All right, Peter, let's go back to the point you were making in closing, that you think the U.S. has degraded its effort by its involvement in Iraq. But are you willing to give the U.S. administration any credit for making any inroads in the war against terror here?

LANCE: The biggest inroad was the invasion of Afghanistan, absolutely.

But since the invasion of Iraq, where my book shows -- and the president admitted on September 17 -- no connection between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein with respect to 9/11, no weapons of mass destruction -- now that we have decapitated that regime, there's evidence that al Qaeda is infiltrating Iraq. We have got a protracted guerrilla war. You have American good men and women dying every day. It's open-ended; $87 billion, with a B, bailout.

And we went after the wrong target with respect to Saddam Hussein. No. We're exponentially more dangerous, because now there's the potential for a Shiite-elected majority to run that country, to produce another Taliban-like Afghanistan or ayatollah-like Iran. Much, much more dangerous.

ZAHN: We have got to leave it there this evening. Peter Lance in Santa Barbara, Victoria Clarke in Washington, thank you for both of your perspectives.

CLARKE: Thanks.

ZAHN: And the $25 million question at the center of all of this, just where is Osama bin Laden? That's the amount of cash the United States government is willing to pay to see bin Laden caught or killed.

With us now from Washington is Robert Baer. He is a former CIA operative and the author of the book "Sleeping With the Devil." And joining us from London this evening, Sajjan Gohel. He is the director of International Security with the Asia-Pacific Foundation.

Welcome to both of you.

(CROSSTALK)

ROBERT BAER, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: Good evening.

ZAHN: Bob, where do you think Osama bin Laden is?

BAER: The best explanations of where he disappeared to that I have heard is the northwest frontier province of Pakistan, which is pretty much outside Pakistan's authority, government authority. Or, I've heard this disturbing rumor that he's in Iran, which would certainly shift the whole -- this Middle East conflict.

ZAHN: Now, Sajjan, you have got a completely different theory. You actually believe Osama bin Laden, if he's alive, is in a Pakistani urban area? SAJJAN GOHEL, ASIA-PACIFIC FOUNDATION: Well, if we look at the fact that key al Qaeda terrorists have been captured in urban major heartlands, such as Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Ramzi Binalshibh, Abu Zubaydah, they were captured in major urban heartlands, inside Pakistan, along with their entourages. And it's more than possible that Osama bin Laden is hiding out somewhere.

We have to remember that he needs to be near communications. He needs to be near medical areas, because he does suffer a lot from his kidneys. He needs to be accessible. We cannot rule out the fact he is in some mountain area next to Afghanistan and Pakistan, such as the federally administered tribal areas, which is the sort of the bandit country, the Wild West of Pakistan. It is possible he is in either of these locations. But he is definitely somewhere in Pakistan. I believe that.

ZAHN: Bob, our last guest made the argument that the hunt for bin Laden has been compromised by resources being diverted to Iraq. Do you agree with that?

BAER: Oh, absolutely.

I think that this whole Iraq conflict has just fueled support for bin Laden. It's been misperceived in the Middle East. It's getting worse with these attacks on Samarra. It is going to add to recruits. And even if we were to get bin Laden today, we would have to quickly settle the conflict in Iraq.

ZAHN: Sajjan, what is it going to take to find Osama bin Laden, if he is indeed alive?

GOHEL: Well, firstly, we need better intelligence on the ground.

We need full and more cooperation from the Pakistani authorities, who, albeit, have done something in helping the CIA and the FBI, doing a good job in capturing already key al Qaeda terrorists. But we need more, greater cooperation, because Osama bin Laden is still out there. He's still abled. He's still giving out his audiotaped message and is still giving the message for global jihad for his affiliate.

So, unfortunately, at the moment, we have not done enough to capture these key top individuals such as Osama bin Laden, and also not forget his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, who is as much playing a key role in global terrorist activity as Osama bin Laden.

ZAHN: Sajjan has just made an interesting point, Bob. In the absence of that kind of updated intelligence, will the FBI or CIA be successful here?

BAER: I absolutely agree 100 percent.

Without local cooperation, without people getting behind this war on terrorism, we are not going to solve anything. We have to bring these countries around. We have to get people in Karachi, if he's up in the frontier province, or even Afghanistan, to run these people down. And without that, we can't do it, either the CIA or the FBI, alone.

ZAHN: Sajjan, are you optimistic or pessimistic that these efforts will succeed? Sajjan?

GOHEL: Well, I'm afraid, at the moment, I'm quite -- at the moment,I'm afraid I'm quite pessimistic about the situation in general.

Post-September the 11th, the United States naturally turned to countries in the region to help it fight the war against terrorism. It's not fair to expect the U.S. to do this on its own. However, we've turned to countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the two countries that nurtured and funded and sponsored the Taliban militia, that provided sanctuary to al Qaeda. We're now expecting these countries to aid us in this war against terrorism.

And I don't believe that these countries have suddenly seen the light, that they see al Qaeda or the Taliban as their enemies. It's a well-known fact that Pakistani intelligence, a large number of them, still have sympathetic ties with al Qaeda, with the Taliban. And until we get proper, whole-hearted support from people on the ground from these countries, I don't believe we will ever see or will be able to capture Osama bin Laden.

ZAHN: Sajjan Gohel, Bob Baer, we got to end it on that note tonight. Thank you for joining us tonight.

BAER: Thank you.

ZAHN: Coming up, we're going to look at whether hundreds of so- called enemy combatants held at the U.S. Navy base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, should be sent home.

And there may soon be a new liberal counterpoint to right-wing radio -- don't say that too fast -- an all-liberal network. Could Al Franken be the left's answer to Rush Limbaugh?

And yet another side-effect of the 9/11 terror attacks. Have firefighter heroes betrayed their own families?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The Bush administration may be one step closer tonight to releasing scores of detainees held in Guantanamo Bay. "TIME" magazine is reporting that at least 140 detainees never charged with a crime are scheduled to go free.

What's prompting that decision? Let's turn to our regular contributor, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.

ZAHN: Glad to have you back.

TOOBIN: Good to be here.

ZAHN: First of all, are you 100 percent sure these detainees that are isolated in this piece are not terrorists?

TOOBIN: Well, no one could be 100 percent sure, but most of these detainees have been in custody for close to two years now.

And I think, if the government hasn't figured out that they're terrorists now, they are never going to figure it out. So anyone released, I think it's safe to say, is safe to go.

ZAHN: There is concern, though, that these are dangerous men?

TOOBIN: They wouldn't be there unless we thought they were dangerous.

But, remember, there are 13-year-olds. There are a couple 15- year-olds. There's some old people there. I think, if people get released, they are only going to be released because the government, the military, is really sure that there is no danger from them.

ZAHN: You are headed down to Guantanamo Bay?

TOOBIN: I am.

ZAHN: What is it that you expect to find?

TOOBIN: Well, I expect to find a prison camp that operates outside the rules of law. It is really an extraordinary situation here.

ZAHN: Now, wait. Are you saying that means the treatment is illegal?

TOOBIN: No, it's not the treatment.

It is that the status of these prisoners is almost unprecedented in our history, because the government has said -- and this is heading to the Supreme Court -- that these prisoners, they are not prisoners of war. They're not criminal defendants. They're what is called enemy combatants and they're outside our legal system. They have no right to file a case, to ask to have a lawyer. And that's an interesting and unprecedented situation. And I want to see what it looks like.

ZAHN: Well, let me ask you this. There are a number of Americans who could care less how these detainees are being treated. Why should they care?

TOOBIN: I would say there's a majority of Americans who don't care how these people are treated, because they are al Qaeda suspect, and that's enough to lock them up.

I think why people should care is that rules that apply to some eventually apply to everyone. And I think it's an interesting and important precedent to be set here that people captured have no rights of review at all by the legal system. But, maybe under these extraordinary circumstances, that's the right decision.

ZAHN: What is it, then, that the Supreme Court has to decide?

TOOBIN: The important thing they have to -- they are not going to decide whether these people should be released. That's not the issue.

The issue is, do they have the right to sue and say, prove that I deserve to be incarcerated? That's all that they're deciding, is whether they have the right to sue, or whether, as the government insists, they are outside the legal system, they have no legal rights at all, and it is solely up to the government when and how they should be released.

ZAHN: Well, have a safe trip. And we look forward to seeing some of the reports you file from there.

TOOBIN: OK.

ZAHN: Jeffrey Toobin, thanks so much.

We're going to look at a smalltown's controversial move to require every home to have a gun.

Also, trouble in the ranks. As more than 200,000 reservists and National Guard troops serve in the war on terrorism, we're going to hear from some who say a year on duty is just way too much.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS DRITSCHEL, U.S. ARMY SPECIALIST: I don't have to go. I don't see any reason why I should have to go if I've been there once already within the past year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Jeff Flock headed there for the showdown.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's just your basic little .22.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Nate Cook (ph) already has a shotgun, handgun, BB gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a squirrel-killing machine.

FLOCK: But he doesn't want anybody telling him and the rest of Geuda Springs, Kansas, they have to have one. John Brewer, on the other hand, does.

With no police in this tiny rural farm town of just 200 people, Brewer got a law passed requiring every head of household to -- quote -- "maintain a firearm together with ammunition therefor.

JOHN BREWER, CITY COUNCILMAN: The sheriff can't get here in time. The sheriff is 15 minutes away at 100 miles an hour.

FLOCK: Fearing a court challenge, the law only provides a $10 fine if you don't have a gun and exempts anyone who essentially doesn't want one.

BREWER: There is no teeth in it.

FLOCK (on camera): So what's your point?

BREWER: My point is, is that we have to have a law on our books to cover our butt when it comes to protecting ourselves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see the city being held liable for any accidents that may or may not happen in the future.

FLOCK (voice-over): The town had a thriving past, thanks to therapeutic springs that packed local hotels and gambling houses back in the days when everybody wore a gun. The governor once put out a reward when somebody shot the mayor and sheriff. That was the last time Geuda Springs was in the news.

BREWER: Hopefully, after tonight, this will all go away just as quick as it came.

FLOCK (on camera): Indeed. Tonight's council meeting determines whether guns become law here in Geuda Springs or whether the idea gets shot down.

I'm Jeff Flock, CNN, in Geuda Springs, Kansas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Conservative radio listeners have Rush Limbaugh. But is there a place on the dial for a liberal radio network? And will Americans actually listen?

Also, 11 shootings on five miles of Ohio highway, the latest developments, as police try to track down the shooter or shooters.

And, tomorrow, Scott Peterson heads back to court. This week, attention turns to whether the trial location may be moved because of all the massive publicity.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back.

Here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.

The coroner in Cincinnati says a man who died after being subdued by police had both cocaine and PCP in his system. Nathaniel Jones, who weighed 350 pounds, attacked an officer who was questioning his erratic behavior. Six officers have been put on administrative leave, pending an investigation.

Illusionist Roy Horn may be home from the hospital by the end of the year, that word today from his publicist. Horn has been recovering from injuries he suffered when he was bitten by one of his white tigers during a performance in Las Vegas.

First lady Laura Bush welcomed the official White House Christmas tree today. It's a Fraser fir, nearly 19 feet tall. It was grown in Wisconsin. It arrived, as you can see, at the White House by horse- drawn carriage.

The decision by President Bush to call up thousands more reserve troops to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan have consequences far beyond the fighting.

Deborah Feyerick has this exclusive story of one soldier and the price he's having to pay.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Army Reserve Captain Steven McAlpin was ready to serve again in Afghanistan. He had been recommended for two Bronze Stars for helping rebuild the country.

GOV. GEORGE PATAKI (R), NEW YORK: Captain McAlpin, New York thanks you for your service to our country.

FEYERICK: Even being honored by New York's governor.

Now the Army Reserve is kicking him out.

CAPT. STEVE MCALPIN, U.S. ARMY RESERVE: "Captain McAlpin, you are hereby notified that you have been removed from the battle roster of the 401st Civil Affairs Battalion due to a loss of confidence in your leadership. "

FEYERICK: The Army is charging McAlpin with insubordination. But McAlpin says he was just sticking up for his soldiers.

S. MCALPIN: They're asking these soldiers to go up and beyond, when, legally, they're entitled to some rights of a stabilization period following a deployment.

FEYERICK: Army policy gives reservists 12 months home before being redeployed. And they can't be involuntary mobilized before that time is up, though the Army can change the policy. McAlpin's special operations soldiers were asked to sign a waiver, returning them to combat early.

DRITSCHEL: I didn't see why we had to sign a waiver.

FEYERICK: Under pressure, Christopher Dritschel says he signed the waiver, then tore it up.

DRITSCHEL: I don't have to go. I don't see any reason why I should have to go if I've been there once already within the past year.

FEYERICK: Dritschel says a lot of soldiers were confused the Army asked, rather than told them to go back.

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, there is a lot of pressure to sign a waiver to redeploy, when it's less than a year between tours. We don't know how much pressure was placed on the troops. Sometimes, they don't know what they're signing.

FEYERICK: Captain McAlpin was downgraded to an inactive unit. He packed up his things at the base Monday, his 25-year Army Reserve career now in limbo.

(on camera): An Army Reserve spokesman declined discussing the insubordination charges or any details of McAlpin's case. The spokesman called it an administrative action, saying the Army is focused on fighting a war.

Deborah Feyerick, CNN, Rochester, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Joining me now live is Patrick McAlpin, the brother of Army Reserve Captain Steven McAlpin.

Mr. McAlpin, welcome.

Do you think the Army gave your brother a fair shake?

PATRICK MCALPIN, BROTHER OF U.S. ARMY RESERVIST: No, I don't, Paula.

I think that they're kind of running around, trying to basically find something.

(CROSSTALK)

P. MCALPIN: Steve is just a -- is a wonderful brother. He's a -- everyone looks up to him. And he always enforced what a wonderful institution the Army is. He says that, if it wasn't for the Army, he doesn't know where he would be. The Army is his life. He loves the Army and everything that it stands for.

And his soldiers look up to him, because they respect and respond to that.

ZAHN: But, Patrick, when you say the Army is running around looking for something, what do you mean by that?

P. MCALPIN: Well, I think I misspoke. I really don't know. That was the first words out of my mouth, and a little confused.

ZAHN: Oh, that's all right. It's hard with these live hookups.

But were you aware of any problems he might have had in Afghanistan, when he was serving there?

P. MCALPIN: I don't believe he was in any problems over in Afghanistan. As a matter of fact, he was cited by the governor, or the -- yes, the governor of New York, Pataki. He was nominated for two Bronze Stars.

He's really a wonderful, wonderful brother. He was awarded the -- and I was going off on a bit of a tangent here, but just I want you to know a little bit of background on Steve. Steve served in Bosnia, the first rotation there. And when he was over there, there was an interpreter named Emil Lokanovich (ph). Now, Steve met him and he liked him. He was a good guy and always stayed very -- he always stayed very active around the community in different countries.

And Emil being an interpreter and being as smart as he is, he got permission from his parents to have Steve bring Emil over to this country. And once he was here, he paid for all his education, put him through SUNY Brockport College, never asked for anything in return, put him up in his home for 3 1/2 years, and paid for all his food, over $70,000 in expense.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Wow. You have obvious reason to be proud of him.

Just a final question for you, Patrick. What is it that your brother expect to happen here?

P. MCALPIN: What he expects to happen?

ZAHN: Yes.

P. MCALPIN: All he wants, really, is to back to combat. He wants to go back over to Afghanistan. He wants to be there with his guys. These guys look up to him. I look up to him. I've never met anybody like Steve. He's a wonderful, wonderful brother. He's a wonderful person. And he's probably the most giving person I've ever met.

When I said that Steve took care of his education and everything, Steve is a teacher of special kids. He's not rich. He doesn't have a lot of money, but he did it out of the kindness of his heart, never asked for anything in return. And Emil, just to go back to that for one more second, he ended up, in those 3 1/2 years, he got two degrees with a 4.0 average.

ZAHN: Wow, that's...

MCALPIN: He plans on going back to Bosnia and taking care of his war-torn country.

ZAHN: Well, with good reason, you wanted to share that story with us this evening. We're going to continue to follow this story to see where these insubordination charges might go.

Patrick McAlpin, thank you for talking about your brother to us tonight.

P. MCALPIN: No problem. There's absolutely nothing more that my brother enjoys than the Army. Everything he is and everything he wants to be is the Army. It's all he ever talks about.

ZAHN: We are going to end it there. Patrick McAlpin, again, appreciate your time this evening.

P. MCALPIN: Thank you.

ZAHN: Tune to the left? We're going to look at what could be Rush Limbaugh's new competition, an all-liberal radio network.

And firefighters who risked their lives at the twin towers, are they leaving their families for the wives of their fallen comrades?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Move over, Rush Limbaugh. A liberal radio network may soon be challenging the conservative viewpoint. A company called Progress Media is hoping to buy up major-market stations and put liberal voices on the air. Potential hosts include Al Franken and Janeane Garofalo. The goal is to leave or give left-minded listeners and personalities a chance to sound off. Will it work?

Well, Mark Walsh thinks so. The CEO of Progress Media joins us here in the studio.

We would expect you to say that, Mark.

And joining us from Philadelphia is radio talk show personality Michael Smerconish.

Welcome.

So, is it going to work, Michael? Are you nervous?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: No, I'm not nervous.

Listen, I'm for capitalism, but I think this gentleman is creating supply before there is demand. There is no demand for liberal talkers in the United States. If there were such a demand, then, right now, Paula, he would be able to identify for us a handful of individuals who are doing well in singular markets that he intends to roll out nationally. But I'll bet he can't do that.

ZAHN: Can you do that, Mark? Where is the demand?

MARK WALSH, CEO, PROGRESS MEDIA: There are some folks, to his point, that are doing quite well with individual shows that are liberal in nature, Randi Rhodes in Florida, Mike Malloy, a couple of others.

But I think the important point for the viewers to remember -- and Michael as well. And I'm a fan of Michael. I used to listen to him when I lived in Philadelphia. I think the important thing to remember is that some of the liberal shows have failed in the past because we were stand-alone shows in a sea of right-wing talk. And radio is not a destination listening medium. Television is destination-viewing medium. So no one is going to tune in for two hours of a specific liberal tilt and then go back to their Rush Limbaughs and their Sean Hannitys. So that's why we're having an entire broadcast day of 18 hours and buying up to seven stations in major markets to control our own destiny.

ZAHN: You still don't buy that, Michael?

SMERCONISH: No, I don't buy it. And some of the names that are bandied about. I mean, Al Franken is a very funny guy. The book is a hysterical read. But people think it's easy.

ZAHN: It's also a best-seller, Michael.

SMERCONISH: Listen, but people think it's easy, Paula.

Maybe you get this as a television personality. My friends think that I sit around for 3 1/2 hours and kibitz, and then go home and eat chocolates and watch the soaps. But there's a lot more to it than that. And just because al Franken is funny and has written a great book does not mean he'll translate into the talk radio world.

WALSH: Well, Michael, I think that's fair -- to focus specifically on Al, I was just with Al hours ago talking about this specific point.

In fact, he is going to have a surrounding cast. Each of our shows will have multiple personalities in front of the mike. We will not try to mimic what Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity and the rest of the crew does with a solo voice, spewing out an individual message to the dittoheads that echo that voice in a chamber that is specifically theirs for three hours.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Why wouldn't you do that? That's so successful.

SMERCONISH: No, it's only successful to the dittoheads who insist upon hearing their opinions

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: But they keep on coming back.

SMERCONISH: They come back because they hear what they want to hear.

A significant portion of the American audience wants a host to tell them what they already know. And we think that's already being done very well by folks like Michael and Rush Limbaugh and many other great hosts. We believe in formatic purity, an entire broadcast day that is entertaining, that is funny, that is informative, that isn't so didactic.

We think there's an audience out there -- we know there's an audience out there that is unserved because of the didactic nature of individual broadcasting. Ours is a broader, more entertaining

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: All right, are you following that, Michael?

SMERCONISH: I'm trying to. You're going to have to dumb it down if you want to succeed in the talk radio world.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Forget the didactic part of it. Go back to the core argument.

WALSH: Maybe that's part of the problem. We've been dumbing down radio way too much so far. Our audience is not to be dumbed down to.

(CROSSTALK)

SMERCONISH: Listen, my employer in Philadelphia is Infinity Radio. And they're one of the giants in this industry.

And they would ditch me tomorrow -- and I love Infinity and I think they like me. But if there were someone who could get better ratings and sell more advertising, regardless of their political stripe -- it's not about Republicans or Democrats, conservatives or liberals. It's about who can move the needle and sell advertising. And whomever that person is, they're going to be on the air.

WALSH: And I would argue that, not only do I agree with your business standpoint, Michael, but I would argue that we've never had people on the air that are entertaining -- or as entertaining as we need to for a full broadcast day.

You're right. It's about numbers. Radio is about numbers. That's why we're buying five to seven stations in major markets to control our destiny. A mini-Infinity? No. But certainly a way to control our ability to get the voice out to people that have not heard any -- any -- liberal programming for years.

ZAHN: Let me ask you this. What does your research show that the American public is hungry for?

WALSH: America wants to be entertained.

If you look at the number of people that, in America, listen to progressive -- rather, listen conservative talk radio, a significant portion of them -- and Rush would be the first to admit this -- I assume Michael would as well, unless his show is the unique sort of outlier of this -- the significant portion of people who listen to Rush are listening because they want to hear what the other side thinks.

We believe there's an underserved audience out there that wants to be entertained. We are not going to take that dramatic a liberal or Democratic slant. Those who suggest we are, are wrong. What we're going to do is entertain our listeners. And doing that with a full 18-hour broadcast day in major markets with names that, to Michael's point, may not be radio household names now, but we look to find the stars of the future.

Remember, Rush Limbaugh was the P.R. guy for the Kansas City Royals before he became a radio personality. And now, of course, he controls a major audience. We look to mimic that with some great entertainers on our own.

ZAHN: So, Michael, will you come back and, when these folks are on the air, let us know what you think of them?

SMERCONISH: Oh, absolutely.

Listen, I'm all for competition. I just think it's a risky business model. It's like franchising a restaurant nationwide when you don't even have a single restaurant in any particular city that's selling a lot of burgers.

WALSH: It's not a franchise, Michael. We're buying the stations. In fact, one of the stations is in Philly. So we look forward to owning the station which will compete with you.

SMERCONISH: Hey, bring it on.

(LAUGHTER)

WALSH: I heard somebody else say that once.

ZAHN: The stakes are set very high here.

Yes, I remember that, too.

Mark Walsh, Michael Smerconish, thank you for your time.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Who is behind the highway shootings in Ohio? Inside the mind of a possible serial sniper.

And taking care of their own goes wrong, firefighters, 9/11 heroes, reportedly walking out on their own wives and kids to join the families of their fallen comrades.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: A stretch of road in Ohio has become a shooting gallery. Since May, 11 cars have been shot at. Just last week, one of the bullets claimed the life of a 62-year-old passenger in car. And as police track down leads, they are asking for help in finding the killer. And a $10,000 reward was announced in the case today.

Joining us from Columbus is reporter Bruce Cadwallader, who is covering the story for "The Columbus Dispatch." And from San Francisco this evening, we're joined by author and former FBI profiler Candice DeLong. Welcome to both of you.

First off, Bruce, do people close to the investigation believe you're looking at a serial sniper here?

BRUCE CADWALLADER, "THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH": Well, they've only positively linked two of these bullet fragments, Paula.

But 11 shootings since May is a crime trend they can no longer ignore. And we now have a state-federal-local task force now investigating these shootings. They're saying that this could be a drive-by motorist, could be a juvenile in the woods. It could someone with more serious intent.

ZAHN: Candice, in your opinion, what do you think we're looking at here?

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, statistically, these crimes tend to be committed by one person. It probably is the same person.

Of course, they've only been able to link two of them. But, if we learned anything 14 months in D.C., it's that the rules don't necessarily apply anymore.

ZAHN: So can a profiler help at this stage of the investigation?

DELONG: Well, there's not a great deal to profile. There's not a lot of close-contact interaction between the victim and the offender. He's shooting from a distance.

Pretty much, mostly, what can be said is simply statistics taken into consideration, probably a white male, probably someone acting alone. But, of course, a profile is just a tool. And, actually, the forensic investigation, witnesses' identification, and good hard-time police work is probably to solve it.

ZAHN: Bruce, in the meantime, I know locals have found a way to avoid particular stretches of the highway. That's a little harder for folks traveling longer distances.

How is the community continuing to react to the fear surrounding this case?

CADWALLADER: We can honestly say there's no panic in Columbus, but motorists have told us they have changed their routes to work. They've altered their life stiles. This is a very familiar stretch of highway to some of us. It's very unnerving that it's now become a danger zone for us.

And people are talking about taking their children elsewhere. I know my family avoided the area this weekend for Thanksgiving. So it's being talked about at gas stations, restaurants along that route. Cincinnati and Cleveland TV stations are warning people not to come to Columbus because of this. So it's not to a panic, but it's a concern.

ZAHN: Do you see increased police presence on the highway now, Bruce?

CADWALLADER: Yes, Highway Patrol, specifically our state police, have parked cruisers along the median of this five-mile stretch of the freeway routinely. Columbus police have a helicopter that flies 18 hours a day.

The sheriff's office is the lead investigation agency on this case. They have been present and also covertly in the woods and in the subdivisions along this route, looking for the sniper or the shooter.

ZAHN: Well, Bruce and Candice, thank you for bringing this all into perspective for us this evening. We appreciate it.

CADWALLADER: Thank you.

DELONG: You're welcome.

ZAHN: And why would some of New York's bravest firefighters who risked their lives on 9/11 betray their own families?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: One New York tabloid calls it a dirty little secret. About a dozen New York firefighters assigned to look after the families of colleagues lost in the 9/11 attacks have actually left their wives for the widows they were supposed to be helping. At least one wife is calling it heartbreaking and disgusting.

Jason Carroll reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This picture of the Sazuka (ph) family was taken on their vacation in Maryland last year. Two months after it was taken, John Sazuka, husband and father, said he was leaving.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm left in a situation that I don't even -- I don't know what to do, you know? And I can't turn to him, who I've trusted and turned to for the past 20 years. He's gone. And I -- he just doesn't want the responsibilities of the five of us.

CARROLL: Sazuka is a firefighter in Brooklyn. His wife, Susan (ph), says her husband left her for a 9/11 widow of another firefighter who she says he was supposed to be counseling as part of a fire department program.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like he had a job to do with helping after 9/11, and it's like he abused it. He just hides behind lies and blame. And I don't know who he is anymore.

CARROLL: When reached by phone, John Sazuka said he was not counseling the 9/11 widow he left his family for. He says they met through mutual friends. Sazuka also says his marriage was also in trouble before that. A source in the New York Fire Department told CNN, at least eight firefighters left their wives for 9/11 widows, some of whom they had been counseling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I'm just trying to help out and you're giving me a hard time. That's really nuts.

CARROLL: A year and a half ago, the department made a training video that addressed the bond that can develop between a firefighter and a widow he's counseling. Sazuka says she decided to come forward, so other firemen's wives in the same situation can have a voice.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: And the New York City Fire Department defends its program, saying it has helped a number of 9/11 widows. But, of course, here at the Sazuka home, the belief is that the department should just be using certified counselors -- Paula.

ZAHN: Jason Carroll, thanks so much.

Now, there are a dozen wives who know this pain firsthand. One says the New York Fire Department saw it happening, did nothing to stop it.

Mary Koenig's husband left her and their two children for the widow of a firefighter killed on 9/11. She joins us now with her story.

Thanks so much for joining us.

MARY KOENIG, FIREFIGHTER'S WIFE: Hi.

ZAHN: I know this isn't easy for you to talk about. What is it that you want the audience to know about the breakup of your marriage?

KOENIG: I've heard a lot of things saying that we had domestic problems and that he was going to leave anyway.

Well, we'll never really know what happened and what the problems were, because I never had the chance to have a husband after September 11. I never had the chance for him to come home and love his wife and love his family and discuss with me the things that went on that day and the things that he was feeling.

ZAHN: You obviously are hurt and have reason to feel bitter about this. What is it that you want to happen? Why are you speaking publicly about this?

KOENIG: I think the fire department has seen mistakes that were made.

And I know, after the McKenzie (ph) report, they did put into place a plan for the next time. But, again, it's just a plan and it is only going to be voluntary. And unless these men seek out the counseling, they don't have to have it. Well, sometimes, they're not strong enough to ask for help and they need to be pushed. And this was a case that they needed to be pushed. And next time, I'm sure there will be many more cases where they need to be pushed. ZAHN: I want to share with our audience now something the Fire Department of New York issued, a statement about liaisons. They said, "Recognizing the particularly difficult and emotionally sensitive work done by liaisons, the department provided special counseling programs for them and their families."

And we just saw a little piece of that in Jason Carroll's package. Was it too little too late or just not effective, as far as you're concerned?

KOENIG: It was on a voluntary basis. And, as a family, I would have insisted that my husband go with me to counseling.

But, in the beginning, they were busy on the pile, and they were busy with the widows, and they were busy going to funerals, and they were busy taking them to the site and to get benefits from the city. And there was just no time for their families. Had it been ordered that they had to spend time in counseling, then maybe it would not have been too late.

I do know that there were programs available. I chose to take some, because my family was feeling the effects of September 11 almost immediately. But he chose not to. He chose to be elsewhere.

ZAHN: I know it's really difficult for you to separate yourself from your situation. But, certainly, you've talked with some other women who have confronted what you're facing right now.

Do you have any understanding on an emotional level what might have happened to some of these men and why they would have left their wives for these women that they were counseling?

KOENIG: I know, from the beginning, that my husband spent almost every day with this woman. And so, after a while, it was a routine. For six weeks, he did nothing but be there for them, support them, take them out, take them to doctors appointments, take them up to the city, take them for DNA samples, take them for benefits, take them for interviews. And then the funeral came and then what?

Was he just supposed to end that new life that he had gotten accustomed to for six weeks and go back and live with his family? How was he supposed to know how after that?

ZAHN: Can you kind of understand how someone could fall in love with someone that they've created an intimate bond with just through this program?

KOENIG: I definitely understand, yes. They did very intimate things together. They had to make funeral arrangements together. He gave the eulogy for her. I understand how it came to be. I believe it could have been stopped. And of course I know why she loves him, because I obviously have that same problem.

(LAUGHTER)

ZAHN: It's so sad. Well, Mary, thank you.

We're going to bring Dr. Drew Pinsky into our controversy now to talk about the indirect effect of the 9/11 attacks and how it is bringing more pain to a lot of New Yorkers. What kind of dynamic is at work here?

Well, let's introduce you to relationship expert and addiction specialist Dr. Drew Pinsky, who joins us from Los Angeles.

Doctor, I'm sure you had the same problem I did listening to Mary. You can hear the very raw pain in her voice.

Does this make much sense, for a fire department to send folks who worked on the pile and witnessed what they did to do the kind of work that they're expected to do with these other grieving families?

DR. DREW PINSKY, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: In an ideal world, it would make sense, if humans weren't what they are, the frail beings that they are in the face of serious trauma.

I wish that this were sufficient, but the reality is that this is really a recipe for boundary problems. People who have been traumatized, people whose very self is tied up in being a rescuer, as these firemen are, women who are looking for life preservers, the two of them sharing sort of a reproduction of the past -- in other words, they can sort of, in a fused state, can remember what it was like before the horrible trauma and sort of create for themselves a safe haven.

It's a very, very painful and very human sort of a condition here that we're talking about. And it's unfortunate that, no, it's not enough to send a layperson in to do counseling. People have been to be highly trained in how to maintain healthy distances from people whom they're trying to counsel.

ZAHN: How much, do you think, of this is survivor's guilt?

PINSKY: Some of it is survivor's guilt. There's a ton of different emotions tied up into this, as I was saying.

Some of it is just having been traumatized, both the wife and firefighter. Some of it is both of them looking for a life preserver. Some of it is, as you're saying, guilt or other affects. They're just trying to manage overwhelming feelings. And it's very, very sad that then they sort of fall into these very fused and idealized relationships and the families to whom they're committed suffer as a result.

Again, it's a recipe for boundary problems. People don't -- aren't really trained on how to maintain healthy distances from one another without being overtaken by their pain and having to then rescue them, particularly with the kind of person who is committed to being a rescuer.

ZAHN: Dr. Drew Pinsky, thank you. Mary Koenig, again, thank you for sharing your personal story with us this evening.

KOENIG: Thank you.

ZAHN: That wraps it up for all of us here tonight. Thanks so much for dropping by. Hope you're back with us again tomorrow night, same time, same place.

"LARRY KING LIVE" is next.

Have a good night.

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