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Paula Zahn Now

Air Marshals on International Flights; Howard Dean Under Attack

Aired December 29, 2003 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): In Focus" tonight: fighting terror with guns on planes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police! Don't move!

O'BRIEN: Air marshals are ordered on international flights heading to the U.S. Can those flights ever be as safe as American airliners?

Howard Dean under attack from fellow Democrats. Is it the Democratic Party's undoing or just the way politics is always played?

And Michael Jackson's big interview. Was he really locked in the bathroom for 45 minutes? Did police really rough him up? We'll send in the truth squad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: All of that's ahead tonight, but first, here is what you need to know right now.

Iran says at least 25,000 bodies have been found beneath the earthquake-shattered city of Bam. Some fear the quake may have killed one-third of the people who live there. Mass burials are taking place in trenches just outside the city. The U.S. has sent at least 12 shipments of medicine, food, water, and blankets.

The U.S. says the cow afflicted with mad cow disease in Washington state was born just before brain and nerve tissue was banned from cattle feed in the U.S. and Canada. The disease is spread by eating infected tissue. The U.S. also says the infected cow was one of a herd of 81 brought here from Canada.

And Michael Jackson's spokesman, Stuart Backerman, spoke for himself today. He quit. Backerman says he has strategic differences with the singer accused of child molestation.

Homeland Security Chief Tom Ridge today said his agency is just as concerned about a terrorist attack this week as it was last week. And days after canceling several Air France flights into Los Angeles, Ridge announced steps to improve security on non-U.S. airlines.

We're putting that "In Focus" tonight in the first of a two-part series from Kathleen Koch. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They will be trained, armed government law enforcement officers. The U.S. will tell international passenger and cargo carriers which flights they must be on, based on the potential terrorist risk.

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: The present goal is to have armed and trained law enforcement officials on flights of interest where the information warrants that add a level of protection.

KOCH: Air marshal programs started in Israel in 1968. Since then, countries like Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Canada, Australia and Singapore have followed suit. But security experts say fewer than 10 percent of countries worldwide have air marshals. Great Britain has trained, but not deployed them, and is facing pilot opposition.

JIM MCAUSLAN, BRITISH AIRLINE PILOTS ASSN.: I think the first worry is about having guns, ballistics, in the aircraft in high- pressurized cabins. Once you try and deal with one risk, the risk of terrorism, you create another.

KOCH: Air marshals have stopped recent attempted hijackings in Jordan in 2000, and in Turkey last year.

RAFI RON, FORMER ISRAELI AIR SECURITY CHIEF: Two seconds, this guy was fall on the floor.

KOCH: But with 743 foreign carriers flying into the United States each day, only a small percentage will be covered. It's similar to the level of protection the several thousand of U.S. air marshals provide to the 22,000 domestic flights each day.

This is not the first time the U.S. has mandated, the rest of the world come up to its level of aviation security. After 9/11, all international flights into the U.S. had to install bulletproof cockpit doors. But, otherwise, there are only guidelines, no enforceable security standards every nation must follow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A substantial part of world aviation is not protected by proper aviation security.

KOCH: No mandate for an air marshal program, nor for pilots to carry guns, and, perhaps most importantly, no international requirement for bomb screening of checked baggage. The biggest post- 9/11 holes remain, say experts, in poor developing countries, because security improvements are so expensive.

(on camera): If countries don't cooperate on air marshals, the U.S. could deny their planes access, forcing a new aviation standard on a sometimes reluctant world.

Kathleen Koch, CNN, Reagan National Airport.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Now, for more on the air marshals, joining us from Washington, Billie Vincent is former head of security for the Federal Aviation Administration. And security expert Rafi Ron joins us also this evening.

Gentlemen, good evening. Thanks for being with us.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Mr. Ron, let's begin with you.

Do you expect that other countries can effectively and efficiently train air marshals to the standards that the United States expects?

RON: Well, it's not going to be easy.

But I'm sure that help will be provided, either by the United States or by other countries that have accumulated the right experience. I think that the decision to deploy air marshals on all flights to the U.S. would trigger a new standard for international aviation security.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Vincent, we heard Tom Ridge say that the air marshals would be on flights of interest, where the information would warrant them to be on that flight. What specifically does that mean and how would they decide where the information comes in? And what would warrant an air marshal being on a particular flight?

BILLIE VINCENT, FORMER FAA SECURITY CHIEF: Well, there are many ways that you can measure that.

But, most likely, that would have to do with some intelligence that they received or an evaluation of the most probable areas of attack or scenario that an adversary would take. But, generally, it would be based on some intelligence that they would have received or an analyst's opinion after having evaluated some intelligence. Most likely, it would be nonspecific, though.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Ron, do you expect that countries will cooperate? Do you expect that they will bristle against being forced to do something to U.S. standards?

RON: Well, that is yet to be seen.

But I'm sure that the position of the U.S. to create these standards is better than any other nation in the world. And I assume that no country will stop flying to the U.S. They will not take the risk of being rejected.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Vincent, two years more than -- since 9/11, why has it taken so long? Obviously, the idea of al Qaeda using airplanes as weapons is not new. It seems that 2 1/2 years, nearly, is a pretty long time for this to come into place. VINCENT: Well, a lot of things have been happening in the background. You can't come out and tell another country to put air marshals on the airplanes without some sort of basis to doing so.

If the U.S. had gone and approached other countries to do this earlier, the most likely response would have been, why should we? What's the threat? Unfortunately, the system has to work on an emergency basis. And when that's done -- and, incidentally, I issued several emergency orders when I was head of security. And people wondered why we did that.

And, of course, you can't tell them all the specifics of the intelligence that you get. So it's something that has been working all of these many months. And I commend Secretary Ridge for taking this action at this time.

And, in response to the earlier question you asked Rafi Ron -- Rafi -- generally, the rest of the world will follow what the U.S. mandates as a security standard. That's been our experience. And I would doubt that you would get a real strong objection to doing this, provided the U.S. has some rational basis for doing so.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Ron, do you think air marshals on flights, all flights now, or a bulk of the flights that are coming into the United States, that's the answer to a security problem?

RON: Well, it is a very important part of the answer. There's no question about it. Cockpit doors are also critical for that purpose. And the ground security operation, as well as good intelligence, are also very important elements in this problem.

But the problem, it must a multilayer program. And the last resort should be the air marshal on board. Without it, I'm afraid, we may doom ourselves to fail.

O'BRIEN: Rafi Ron and Billie Vincent joining me this evening -- thanks, gentlemen. Appreciate it.

VINCENT: You're welcome.

RON: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: And I want to give you this programming note. Homeland Security Tom Ridge will join us on "AMERICAN MORNING" at 7:00 a.m. Eastern time right here on CNN.

And tomorrow night on PAULA ZAHN NOW, in part two of Kathleen Koch's report, she's going to tell us what new measures the U.S. is taking to monitor international visitors.

The U.S. is warning that al Qaeda may be planning terror attacks against American interests in Saudi Arabia. Today, a car belonging to a Saudi Arabia intelligence officer exploded in Riyadh. No one was injured.

Last May, suicide bombers killed 35, wounded hundreds there. But Saudi officials are hoping to reduce the threat with crackdowns on Islamic militants.

Joining us this evening from Dallas is someone who knows the situation there very well. He is the former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Robert Jordan, who just stepped down in December.

Ambassador Jordan, nice to have you. Thank you for joining us.

ROBERT JORDAN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA: Good evening.

O'BRIEN: Give me a sense of what is known about this recent attack. As I just mentioned, a Saudi intelligence officer appears to have been the target. Do we know more than that about this?

JORDAN: No, this is still very preliminary. And we don't have any further information at this time.

It does come on the heels, though, of an attack on December the 4th against the head of the Saudi secret police and his brother. They both were injured. The brother, in fact, has been very seriously injured. I believe he's still in the hospital. So this is not unlike what we have seen actually in Iraq, where the terrorists are now attacking those who are helping us fight the war on terror, those who are engaged in behalf of trying to stamp out al Qaeda and the other terrorists.

The Saudis are now in the line of fire. And people in these responsible positions, I think, are in some jeopardy right now.

O'BRIEN: So it sounds as if things on the ground there, then, are growing more volatile. Is that the sense that you had when you were there last, that things are getting more out of control?

JORDAN: I don't think out of control is exactly the right word. Certainly, in the aftermath of May the 12th, I was very unhappy with the security arrangements that had been made, primarily at the Western housing compounds.

Since that wakeup call of May the 12th, we've seen a dramatic improvement in the security the Saudis have provided. They have got tanks and armored personnel carriers all over the towns and the locations where Westerners might be. I spoke even today with a senior official in the embassy in Riyadh. They continue to believe that the Saudis are providing excellent cooperation.

But the problem we have is, we don't know how deep this terrorist threat really goes. Are we at the tip of the iceberg or are we somewhere down that iceberg? And I don't think either the Saudis or the Americans really know the answer to that right now.

O'BRIEN: Do you feel that the Saudis are being cooperative in trying to answer that question? Are we at the tip of the iceberg or somewhere near the bottom?

JORDAN: They're desperately trying to answer the question, because they have realized, particularly since the May the 12th, that this is really a fight against them as much as it is against us. It's personal now and it's a duel to the death. These terrorists are really after the Saudi regime right now.

O'BRIEN: There's some reports of British intelligence saying that there are planned attacks, or attacks that are in maybe the final stages of preparation in Riyadh.

Have you seen, in the wake of reports like that, a change in the attitudes of not only the Saudi royal family, but all Saudis?

JORDAN: I think all Saudis are now absolutely horrified at the loss of life, at the senseless loss of life that we have seen since May the 12th.

They've had Arabs and Muslims killed now, which I think has made a tremendous impact on the Saudi population. They don't like to have guests in their country, even Westerners, harmed. But when it really gets personal is when you see Arabs and Muslims, as we've seen both in the November attacks and the May attacks, as victims. So I think we're now seeing perhaps a sea change. And it may well be that al Qaeda has gone too far in Saudi Arabia and they are now losing the support of the population.

I think it's too early to completely answer that question, but it's one that I'm hearing more and more comment about as time goes on.

O'BRIEN: It will be interesting to see what is the case as time goes on.

Ambassador -- former Ambassador Robert Jordan joining us this evening, sir, thank you for your time. Appreciate it.

JORDAN: Sure. Thank you.

O'BRIEN: And still ahead tonight, the controversy over Halliburton's multibillion dollar contract in Iraq is heating up. Would the company have gotten the lucrative deal if Al Gore was president? We'll take a look at that.

And then the in-fighting among Democrats. Are attacks on Howard Dean and his counterattacks helping or hurting their cause?

Also, it's been seven years since JonBenet Ramsey was murdered. Now will new DNA tests lead to her killer?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Halliburton, the oil services company based in Texas and tied to Vice President Dick Cheney, its former CEO, has been getting a gusher of bad publicity lately. The criticism mostly involves cost overruns, no bid-contracts and a Pentagon audit that found a Halliburton subsidiary overcharged the military by $61 million for gasoline in Iraq.

But if Al Gore had won the 2000 election, would it have made any difference? Joining us this evening from Washington D.C., Peter Beinart. He is the editor of "The New Republic."

Nice to see you. Thanks for joining us.

Also, "Wall Street Journal" columnist John Fund is joining us from Sacramento.

Gentlemen, good evening.

PETER BEINART, EDITOR, "THE NEW REPUBLIC": Good evening.

O'BRIEN: John, let's begin with you.

To what degree -- and we'll start with the question that we've just posed right there -- to what degree do you think things would be different in Iraq as it goes with the multibillion dollar contracts to repair the oil fields and such if a Democrat were in the White House?

JOHN FUND, COLUMNIST, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": Well, I think there's a possibility we wouldn't have gone into Iraq.

But if we had, I think that, since there are only a couple of companies in the world that have the kind of expertise does, they would be in there, perhaps not to the same extent, but they'd be there.

O'BRIEN: Would you agree with that, Peter?

BEINART: Not exactly.

It's not just that Halliburton is in there. It's way they got the contract. The Bush administration gave them a no-bid contract last fall. That might have been OK for a short period of time, but it was supposed to be replaced with competitive bidding in April. We've still not had competitive bidding for that Halliburton contract. That I would hope a Democrat would not have done, because it violates the market principles that conservatives even are supposed to believe in.

O'BRIEN: So, is it fair to say that Halliburton is essentially taking advantage of its ties to the White House, or is it just taking advantage of a situation? As the executives there would say, we got in there. It was a bad situation, far worse than anybody thought it was going to be. And we've sort of ridden that wave, trying to help every step of the way.

BEINART: Look, who knows whether it was favoritism or incompetence or what.

But I think what we do know is that we would all agree that no- bid contracts are a bad idea. In very limited circumstances, for short period of times, they might be OK. But we've now been in Iraq for like nine months. And it seems to me that we should have had competitive bidding, and we've not had competitive bidding. And so it's not that surprising that Halliburton is taking advantage of that.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: John, I see you nodding your head. Yes?

FUND: Well, before we turn over foreign policy to the bean counters, let's stipulate that, now that Saddam Hussein is caught, and now that I think we've turned some significant corners in Iraq, I think we're going to get back to business as usual, which includes competitive bidding.

But in the last nine months, it has been a mess. I've talked to several people who have been over there. There was no way you were going to be able to do that. Halliburton and the other companies in there really did an amazing job. Halliburton has lost 10 people dead in Iraq because of that. National Public Radio did a report on Christmas Eve which talked about how grateful the troops were that they have portable potties, that they hot meals.

So, as much as Halliburton is in the crosshairs, they've also done an incredible jobs the troops appreciate.

O'BRIEN: At the same time, if you get back to what the bean counters would say, the company's initial estimates on some of the jobs have been off by as much as 40 percent. If you had a contractor doing something in your home, you would not put up with that.

(CROSSTALK)

FUND: In the middle of a war situation, anybody can happen. I support complete auditing. I think Halliburton is probably going to be watched more closely than any American company in recent history. And if they owe money, the taxpayers should get it back. And they will.

BEINART: Well, but, in fact, the Pentagon has shown -- the initial Pentagon audit report showed that Halliburton had overcharged on those fuel delivery costs.

And I think that it's not acceptable, it seems to me, to go for nine months with one company having a contract and no other companies having the chance to say, look, we can do it cheaper. And this dismissal of bean counters, again, is somewhat ironic for conservatives, who are supposed to be concerned about American taxpayer money.

(CROSSTALK)

FUND: Peter, sequencing. We first have the war.

(CROSSTALK)

FUND: And then, if the auditors come back and say that Halliburton owes money...

BEINART: They have.

FUND: ... and it's now time for competitive bidding, yes, we will do that. And it's going to be done. And it is being done.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Hold on one second, Peter.

At the same time, John, you have a company that is not incentivized, if that's a word, or maybe I'm making it up, to cut costs, because, certainly, in the gasoline price situation, the money that they get is their cost, plus a percentage of the costs. So the higher the cost goes, they actually rake in more money. And so you have what many people, bean counters, possibly, would say is a completely untenable situation for trying to maintain any controls on costs.

FUND: The contracts are written very specifically. If Halliburton owes money, it is going to come back.

In the fog of war -- and believe me, Iraq is a chaotic situation -- all kinds of things can happen, depending on whether fuel is coming in from Turkey, whether it's coming in from Kuwait. I'm sure we're all going to sort it out. The bottom line is, the American people, we have to win the peace and we also have to make sure that taxpayers get good value for their money. That is going to take some time to sort out, but it is going to happen.

O'BRIEN: Peter, I'm going to give the final question to you.

Executives from Halliburton would say, hey, you know what? We did business in the Middle East before President Bush and Dick Cheney were in the White House. We will do business after President Bush and Dick Cheney are out of the White House. They would say your argument has no merit, based on those grounds alone.

BEINART: Of course they -- look, they're one of the best companies in the world. There's no question about that. But they're not the only company.

And even if they were to win the contract, the very process of competitive bidding would probably force their price down and make them more conscientious. That's the point that I think we're trying to make.

(CROSSTALK)

FUND: The original contract they won, Peter, was competitively bid

(CROSSTALK)

BEINART: Yes, but that was not for Iraq. That was back in 2001. The Bush administration said it would have competitive contracts for Iraq by June. And it hasn't.

FUND: We had a war.

(CROSSTALK) O'BRIEN: Gentlemen, you two can continue your argument while we move on to our next segment.

But, John Fund and Peter Beinart, seriously, thank you very much. Appreciate your insight on this topic.

Well, the great car giveaway in Iraq. Find out why U.S. troops are letting locals drive away with brand-new wheels.

Also, over-the-counter cough medicine and how some children across the country are turning it into a potentially deadly high.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: It's clear that it's taking a lot of effort on the part of the U.S. military to earn the trust of Iraqi citizens. In particular, one group of soldiers in Saddam Hussein's hometown has learned that sometimes the shortest path to a good result is down an unconventional road.

Alphonso Van Marsh of CNN International explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALPHONSO VAN MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Muslim religious leaders came packed in a minivan, but they would each leave in their own Peugeot Sedan, courtesy of the United States Army.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We offer these cars in a sign of good faith to the religious engagement process from the commanding general.

VAN MARSH: U.S. officials insisting the keys to the free vehicles to help imams in Salah ad Din Province visit more of the faithful in less time.

MAJOR DEREK JORDAN, U.S. ARMY: It's kind of the same thing like when we repair a water station. We're not trying to bribe a water plant director. We are trying to make sure the water works for that community.

VAN MARSH: Smiling for photos, the imams expressed gratitude for the gifts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is our intent to help you spread the word and educate your all communities.

VAN MARSH: But through a translator, the imams said U.S. forces could use their own religious education.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said some of coalition forces described as Osama bin Laden (UNINTELLIGIBLE), according to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) He say, Osama bin Laden come down from the top. He said, why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The U.S. forces accused him of being a part of Osama bin Laden?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to -- plan for collision forces not (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Osama bin Laden.

VAN MARSH: An eager Army major heard the imams out and promised he would share their concerns with the military chain of command.

JORDAN: We're going to have to communicate that that is improper behavior.

VAN MARSH: Hurt feelings aside, they did not leave without their free wheels.

(on camera): What started as a great car giveaway grew to include a lesson in religious sensitivity, proof that the American campaign to win over so-called hearts and minds here is an ever- evolving process.

Alphonso Van Marsh, CNN, Tikrit, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: The Michael Jackson interview. Was he telling the truth about being locked in the bathroom by police, about being roughed up?

And are the punches and counterpunches among the Democrats helping or hurting their own cause?

And, tomorrow: Democrats go South. We'll see why they're paying so much attention so early to Southern states

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.

Searchers in San Bernardino, California are still trying to find the body of one child who was lost in the Christmas Day mudslides before a fresh onslaught of rain threatens to cause even more slides in the area; 13 other bodies have already been pulled from the Old Waterman Canyon area in the last four days.

Is Saddam talking? One member of the Iraqi Governing Council says he is and that he's revealing where he may have stashed as much as $40 billion looted from the Iraqi treasury. Dr. Iyad Allawi told two Arab newspaper that Hussein says he invested the money in Switzerland, Japan, and Germany.

The earthquake in Iran happened more than three days ago. The time for rescuing survivors from the rubble is rapidly passing away.

And, as Matthew Chance now reports, the living have an almost overwhelming task ahead, that of burying their dead.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the human cost of the catastrophe that's befallen Bam. With thousands of bodies already recovered, mass graves are being filled as fast as they can be dug. This is burial on an industrial scale. Few here have been spared death or grief. Local clerics supervising the funeral rights are overwhelmed by the sheer numbers. "We are preparing the ground for 70,000 graves," one told me. "We're trying to give them all respect and an Islamic funeral. But it's becoming very hard for us. There are so many," he says.

Exact numbers of dead in this disaster zone have still to be reckoned.

(on camera): This is a grave site of enormous proportions, because it has to be. The bodies are being buried 100 at a time. Most will never be identified. The authorities say, quite simply, there is nobody left in Bam who knows who they are.

(voice-over): In the ruins of the town, efforts continued to dig for survivors. But this is an increasingly desperate search. And there's debate about whether the time has now come to stop.

'There is slim hope," says one man, "that someone could be found alive." "No," says another. "People need air. And there is none under all this rubble."

Time may well have run out for anyone still trapped. But it's clear the cost of this catastrophe may yet exceed this country's worst fears.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Bam, in Southeastern Iran.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: On to politics now.

Not that it hasn't happened before, but in the campaign for president, the Democrats continue to dis each other.

Senior political correspondent Candy Crowley reports on the squabble that some critics have compared to a circular firing squad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(APPLAUSE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The season to be jolly rarely ever is when it's also election season. So, when Howard Dean seemed to question the guilt of Osama bin Laden in connection with 9/11, John Kerry said Dean's thinking is muddled. Joe Lieberman called him a "foreign policy rookie." Dick Gephardt wondered if Dean is electable, and Dean blamed the head of the Democratic Party for allowing his rivals to say such things. "If we had strong leadership in the Democratic Party," he told "The New York Times," "they would be calling those other candidates and saying, 'hey, look, somebody's going to have to win here."

Dean also implied if he's not nominated, millions of new to politics supporters might stay home. Rival campaigns went into orbit. John Kerry called it "a divisive, threatening statement." Gephardt suggested Dean wants a coronation. Dean, they said, can't take it, but sure can dish it out.

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We cannot beat George Bush by being Bush-lite.

CROWLEY: Dean may be the frontrunner, but he will never be elected Ms. Congeniality by rivals.

DEAN: What Joe and others are doing on Israel is despicable.

CROWLEY: Doth he protest too much? Dean is virtually bulletproof among his true believers. In fact, nothing fills his coffers like an incoming missile.

Here with the latest fund-raising pitch, courtesy Al Gore. "Howard Dean," Gore said, "needs the resources to respond to these attacks and get his message to the American people."

In the end, it may be that Howard Dean is getting not what he deserves, but exactly what he wants.

Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: An inside view now on Dean and the Democrats. In Washington, Steve Elmendorf is chief of staff for the campaign of Dick Gephardt. Craig Smith is campaign manager for Joe Lieberman. New York Congressman Jerrold Nadler is a Dean supporter. And from Little Rock, Arkansas, Chris Lehane, he's the communications director for Wesley Clark's campaign.

Gentlemen, good evening. Thanks for being with us. Craig, let's begin with you. We heard, of course, Howard Dean complaining that these have been some vicious attacks by his fellow Democrats. I believe he's talked about buckshot -- removing buckshot from his rear- end.

I want to read to you what Senator Lieberman said on "Meet the Press." He said this: "If Howard Dean had his way, Saddam Hussein would be in power today, not in prison." Do you think this is the start of a healthy debate, or do you think that, as Howard Dean would say, kind of a cheap shot?

CRAIG SMITH, CAMPAIGN MANAGER FOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: Well, I think politics isn't patty cake here. You know? Howard Dean was the one, as you just showed, that called Joe Lieberman despicable. Howard Dean was the one who launched the first negative ad of this campaign. Howard Dean's referred to Democratic members of Congress as cockroaches. You know, just last week, Howard Dean referred to moderates within this party as GOP Democrats. You know, this is tough stuff. You know, if he can't take the heat, he needs to get out of the kitchen here. O'BRIEN: So it sounds like you're saying the good doctor is protesting too much. Jerrold Nadler, let's get you to defend your candidate. Why do you think it's a cheap shot and not just, hey, politics isn't patty cake, as we just heard?

REP. JERROLD NADLER (D), NEW YORK: Well, politics isn't patty cake, and it's perfectly legitimate to point out differences between you and your opponents and your approach, et cetera. I do feel, however, that Democrats should observe what Ronald Reagan proposed for Republicans as their 11th Commandment, which is don't make the kind of criticism of opponents which will come back and haunt you in November from the other party.

So, for example, when -- if Joe Lieberman wanted to say that he disagreed with Howard Dean, as he does -- I mean, on the war, he was for it, and Dean is against it -- that's legitimate. For him to say, however, that if Dean was -- if it were up to Dean, Saddam would still be in power, well, that's true, but it's a cheap shot, because that isn't the question. The question is, yeah, he'd be in power, but a few hundred Americans would be alive today, we would not have spent a few hundred billion dollars, al Qaeda would have a lot fewer recruits, we wouldn't have been diverted from the war on terrorism. And that's the debate, which is, was the war worth it? And simply to say that Saddam would be in power is a cheap shot, as if he supported Saddam.

O'BRIEN: Of course, the longer answer -- the longer answer, of course, is not much of a soundbite, and it seems like the candidates tend to try to go for soundbites.

Steve Elmendorf, how much of a concern do you have about what we just heard from Congressman Nadler, which is your candidate's quote is going to look great in an ad that the Republicans run a little bit later down the road in 2004? Let me read to you what Dick Gephardt had to say -- "Time after time, when faced with budget shortfalls, Howard Dean's first and only instinct was to cut. Cut education, cut prescription drug coverage, cut Medicaid funding, cut aid to the blind and the disabled." Coming from Dick Gephardt, that might look pretty good in a Republican ad, don't you think?

STEVE ELMENDORF, GEPHARDT CHIEF OF STAFF: We're going to have a healthy debate about the issues from now until January 19 and beyond as this race begins. What's most amazing about what Dr. Dean has done so far is before the first vote has even been cast, he's calling for a time-out. If he can't take the criticism now, what is he going to do when George Bush and Karl Rove start on him?

O'BRIEN: So, do you think then, Congressman Nadler, that Howard Dean is complaining too much, that frankly this is just good preparation for the general election, this is easy stuff?

NADLER: No, I don't think so at all. I think it is true that you have to anticipate a lot of criticism from George Bush for whoever the nominee is, which I presume probably will be Dr. Dean, but the fact is, it's still absolutely true what Governor Dean said, which is that the leadership of the party should be trying to prevent the candidates from making the kinds of cheap-shot criticisms that will help the Republican candidate, President Bush, eventually. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms you can make that aren't going to be downed (ph) against you -- against the eventual nominee of the party next November.

O'BRIEN: Here is what Howard Dean -- forgive me for interrupting, let me just throw in what your candidate had to say. Howard Dean said Gephardt lacked executive experience, said Clark was a Republican until 25 days ago, said Lieberman was a Washington politician who would promise you everything. Is your own candidate going to stick to maybe reining in the negative comments, the cheap shots?

NADLER: Again, I don't think it's just a question of negative comments. Candidates are entitled to make negative comments about each other if they're true and in context. It's negative comments that are going to be used by the Republicans that you don't want. So saying that -- some of the comments that Governor Dean made are the kind of criticisms that you will not hear from the Republicans. Saying that a candidate isn't liberal enough is not a criticism you're going to hear from George Bush later, for example.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk a little bit about, Chris, what Wesley Clark, your candidate, had to say in a radio broadcast. Let me read it to you. He says -- "I didn't have as much practice skiing as the governor did. He was out there skiing when I was recovering from my wounds in Vietnam." And I should note for you, he said this on the day that Howard Dean was picking up his brother's remains recovered from Laos. Do you think that was sort of a cheap shot?

CHRIS LEHANE, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, WESLEY CLARK: Well, you know, as someone who has served his country in combat and actually did receive four bullet wounds from an AK-47, real bullet wounds, not buckshot, political rhetoric buckshot that Howard Dean is talking about, I think, you know, Wes Clark has found the primary process a lot easier than actually being in real combat.

I mean, the real issue here is we all know what's going to happen when we get to general election next year. The real issue is that George W. Bush is going to be challenging Democrats' patriotism, they are going to be challenging whether Democrats can stand up to the terrorists, they're going to be challenging our plans in Iraq, and we're going to need a candidate that can go toe to toe with George W. Bush. Wes Clark has four stars on his shoulder. A Silver Star...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: ... because I know where you stand. I mean, obviously, he's your candidate, so I get that you think he's the best guy for the job, but I'm curious to understand if you're saying then that all this infighting doesn't matter, because at the end of the day, the Bush campaign is going to have a different strategy, and it really doesn't matter what names the Democrats call each other? Is that what you're saying?

LEHANE: The point I'm making is what's going on right now is the equivalent of thumb-wrestling compared to the real fight that is going to take place next fall when George W. Bush is coming after whoever the Democratic nominee is with both barrels. And you are going to need a candidate who can stand up. If Howard Dean is willing under the pressure right now, imagine what happens when you get to the real show next fall.

I thought it was interesting that Congressman Nadler invoked this Ronald Reagan's 11th Commandment. I remember in the 2000 election, when he was a surrogate for Bill Bradley and Bill Bradley was attacking another Democrat, Al Gore, at that time, ironically enough, I did not see Jerry Nadler up there invoking the 11th Commandment at that point. So I think there is a little bit of hypocrisy going on here.

NADLER: Well...

O'BRIEN: That's going to be our final word this evening. We've covered thumb-wrestling and we've covered patty cake. I think we got every word in. Gentlemen...

LEHANE: It's always best to get the last punch in.

O'BRIEN: ... of course (UNINTELLIGIBLE) again, and I'm sure we will do it once again. Steve Elmendorf, Craig Smith, Congressman Nadler and Wesley Clark's strategist, Chris Lehane, joining us this evening. Thanks, gentlemen, appreciate your time.

The unsolved murder of JonBenet Ramsey seven years later, will new DNA tests of blood found at the scene of the crime lead police to her killer?

Plus, getting high on cough medicine. Some say the new trend among teenagers is having deadly consequences.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: When you get a cough, you take cough medicine, right? Well, unless you're a teenager and you want to get high. Then that cough medicine turns into a new drug of choice for some teenage kids, and it's one that can be bought straight over the counter at your local pharmacy.

Joining us this evening from San Antonio, Texas is James Haag, he abused these types of drugs when he was a teenager, and Will Brown, who's the executive director at Palmer Drug Abuse Program.

Gentlemen, thanks for being with us. I appreciate your time. James, how old were you when you started to abuse cough medicine?

JAMES HAAG, FORMER DMX ABUSER: I was probably about 14.

O'BRIEN: How did you get it?

How did you know what to do?

HAAG: I had some friends at school that were doing it at the time, and they just told me what to buy, what it looked like, what type it was, and I just walked to the nearest grocery store and stole it.

O'BRIEN: You stole it. So, no one ever suspected you were grabbing packets and packets of pills?

HAAG: No.

O'BRIEN: How long were you abusing cough medicine for?

HAAG: There was an initial abuse from the time I figured it out, what it was, until make two, three months later that I was using it all the time every day, never coming down.

O'BRIEN: So give me a sense of how many pills -- after your very worst, how bad was it?

What were you taking?

HAAG: Probably 50 pills per high, and that was about three highs per day.

O'BRIEN: Will, how big of a problem is what we're hearing James describe?

How big of a problem is this across the board among teenagers.

WILL BROWN, PALMER DRUG ABUSE PROGRAM: It's definitely an emerging trend. The problem that we're having right now is no federal entity is studying this, so we have some data in Texas and a lot of poison control centers have published results of emergency room visits and calls to poison control centers, so it is definitely an emerging trend.

O'BRIEN: The key ingredient, what the kids are really abusing is dextromethorphan or DMX, that's the active ingredient, the cough suppressant. What exactly does that do to your body when you're taking these abnormally large doses well outside what's recommended?

We should mention all these drugs are over the counter. You can go and buy them at the pharmacy.

BROWN: There's difficult plateaus in the use. If you take a little bit over the recommended dosage, you get a feeling of being drunk and stoned. When you go into the second plateau and the third plateau, then you're looking at a dissociative effect, kind of like LSD or PCP. So it can be really dangerous.

O'BRIEN: Do you think the sale of cough medicine should be restrictive in some way. I mean, some pharmacies have taken steps to put the certain medicine behind the counter so anybody who wants access would have to go see the pharmacist and get it.

BROWN: We had a retailer in San Antonio that did just that based on reports on our local news. They pulled some of the most commonly abused products and put them behind a counter. Statewide, we have actually worked with local representative to get, among other things, some of these most commonly abused products placed behind the counter, and accessible only with staff from a retailer.

O'BRIEN: James, give me a sense, describe for me, were these drugs addictive?

I mean, was it something that once you started you just couldn't stop?

HAAG: It was very, very addictive. It was something that you would usually use once and you wouldn't come down for a long time, and when you come down off of it, it's not the best thing in the world. You start sweating, cold sweats, very much like coming down off an alcoholic who's drank for years and years coming down, without the death of the person who's coming down.

O'BRIEN: How long have you been clean, and why did you stop?

HAAG: I've been clean off of all drugs and alcohol for just over two years. The way I came off of the Coricidin, I basically had to stop using it. My parents were watching me, and I ended up crawling into a corner and having some very bad withdrawals. And I countered that, of course, later on with more drugs, but eventually, I did quit.

O'BRIEN: Well, James Haag, Will Brown, thanks for joining us this evening to talk about this drug. I think it's fascinating, especially for those that haven't heard of it, or heard it's addictive. And James, congratulations on your sobriety for two years. Good for you.

HAAG: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Seven years later, the murder of JonBenet Ramsey, it's still not solved. And now her parents are hoping a new DNA test will end the mystery.

And roughed up and locked up in the bathroom, we're going to send in the truth squad to check out Michael Jackson's big interview.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: It's been seven years since JonBenet Ramsey was found murdered in her parents home in Boulder, Colorado.

After all this time, the question remains, who killed the child beauty queen?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Tonight her family is hoping new evidence will solve that mystery. For seven year a Colorado killer has remained on the loose, and for seven years, a family has lived under a cloud of suspicion.

PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: I think the only thing that will make them completely change their mind is to hand over the killer, and I can't do that. O'BRIEN: Since the day's following the murder, the investigation seemed to focus on three people in the house the night she was killed, mother Patsey, father Jonn, and brother Burke. All along, family members have maintained their innocents. In the years, they moved to Atlanta, Patsy struggled with cancer and Colorado police failed to arrest a suspect.

Last year a new district attorney took over the Ramsey case and some say for the first time, aggressively pursued DNA evidence. Early in the investigation, DNA tests of blood found on her underwear indicated it was from a male who was not a member of the Ramsey family. At the time, the DNA sample wasn't good enough to compare to a national data bank of known as criminals and unsolved cases, now the Ramseys say a high-quality sample has been found and sent to the FBI for comparison. The hope for authorities, that a killer will be identified, and for the Ramsey's, potentially the end of a seven-year ordeal.

JONN RAMSEY, FATHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: We want peace for our family, we want closure, our name and our family's name has been destroyed. We'll never regain that, and we have no interest in attempting to do that. We want the killer of our daughter found.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Earlier this year a federal judge dismissed a libel and slander suit against JonBenet Ramsey's parents. The judge said a majority of the evidence she saw suggested an intruder was responsible for JonBenet's death.

Joins this evening from Atlanta is Lin Wood, the attorney for the Ramseys.

Nice to see you sir. Thanks for being with us.

LIN WOOD, RAMSEY, FAMILY ATTORNEY: My pleasure Soledad.

Explain something to me. Seven years later, suddenly there's this new DNA sample that hadn't been tested.

How is that possible?

WOOD: Well, actually, it particular DNA was extracted from a spot of blood found on JonBenet's underwear in 1999, and it was known at that time that the DNA from that spot of blood was high quality, right at the necessary standard to meet the FBI DNA data bank requirements, but the Boulder Police Department did not pursue that DNA. It was only last December of last year when Mary Keenan, the district attorney, took the case away from the Boulder Police Department and brought the investigation under her jurisdiction, that she made pursuing the DNA her number one priority to get that DNA into the FBI data bank, which was finally done this November. So it could have been done long ago.

O'BRIEN: So the first blood -- spot of blood that was found was tested in 1997. This second sample that we're talking about was tested in 1999, as you say. Where has it been all this time? It's been on a shelf somewhere?

WOOD: Basically sitting on the shelf of the Boulder Police Department. I don't know where they keep the actual specimen, but the profile was there, it was available from 1999 on, it's a quality specimen, it meets the stringent requirements of the FBI database, and it will eventually solve this crime. When you find the match to this DNA profile, you will find the killer of JonBenet Ramsey.

O'BRIEN: That's a very big if, sir, as you well know. The tests, as you say, are going to be done at the FBI, they have the sample now, but there can't be a match until there's a suspect, right?

WOOD: No, not right at all. It's not a big if. The data bank allows this sample to be compared to other DNA profiles, other DNA from convicted violent offenders or from unsolved violent crimes on a regular basis to see if there's a match. There's about a two-year backlog right now in local and state crime labs getting DNA into the FBI data bank, and so I think it's not an if, it's just a matter of when.

O'BRIEN: As you mentioned, the new DA, Mary Keenan, she's pretty much cleared the Ramseys. Do you think at this point she's put most of the speculation that the parents were somehow involved in this child's murder to rest?

WOOD: I sure hope so, Soledad. The time of making accusations against this family should have ended a long time ago. They have been victims of an unfair and an unjust investigation. They've been falsely accused for years. The last year, things have turned around for them. I give a lot of credit to federal judge Julie Carnes for the courage she showed in her ruling in March of this year, and the courage shown by Mary Keenan in supporting Judge Carnes' conclusion that the weight of the evidence demonstrated that an intruder killed JonBenet.

But I got to tell you something, I give most of the courage to my clients. They have endured tragedy, they have endured accusation, and they have survived it with dignity and grace. They are remarkable people, and I look forward to the day when I share with them the joy in finding that the killer of JonBenet has been brought to justice.

O'BRIEN: Well, I think everyone would like to look forward to that day, when the killer of JonBenet is brought to justice. Lin Wood, thanks for being with us this evening. We appreciate it.

WOOD: Thank you, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Michael Jackson tells his side of the story, including new allegations of police mistreatment. Did what he say do more harm than good?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Now to Michael Jackson. His first televised interview since being arrested on child molestation charges aired last night on "60 Minutes." Jackson had plenty to say, including this denial of the allegations against him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, ENTERTAINER: Before I would hurt a child, I would slit my wrists. I would never hurt a child. It is totally false. I was outraged. I could never do something like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Jackson also said there's nothing wrong with having a child sleep in his bed, and he accused police of roughing him up, dislocating his shoulder and humiliating him by locking him in a bathroom.

Joining us this evening from Los Angeles is Jackson family attorney Brian Oxman, and from Palm Springs, criminal defense attorney, Dana Cole. Good evening, gentlemen, nice to have you, thanks for being with us.

Brian, let's begin with you.

BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Thank you. We've heard that Michael Jackson's spokesman just quit, really, you know, not very long ago, maybe you know, a half hour, an hour ago, something like that. Any idea why?

OXMAN: Michael has a history of having lots of people come through his business organization. And it is always a tradition in his life that he has new blood and new people come in. I haven't heard the story behind what's going on with Mr. Backerman. I have just the highest regard for him, I think he's great, and if there's someone else to come on board, that's Michael's decision. And so be it.

O'BRIEN: So he likes having new blood rotate in every once in a while and the fact that his big interview on "60 Minutes..."

OXMAN: Oh, my goodness...

O'BRIEN: ... oh my goodness, and the fact that he...

OXMAN: Oh, yes.

O'BRIEN: ... did an interview on "60 Minutes" last night maybe had nothing to do with this decision, in your mind?

OXMAN: No. No, I don't see it as having anything to do with it. I told Mr. Backerman that once you're in the Jackson family, you are always in the Jackson family, so Mr. Backerman is really a very fine fellow.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk a little bit about some of the things that were said in this interview, Brian, on "60 Minutes" last night. The first piece I want to play for you from the interview, Michael Jackson talks about children sleeping in his bed. Let's listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: If you're going to be a pedophile, if you're going to be Jack the Ripper, if you're going to be a murderer, it's not a good idea. That, I'm not. That's how we were raised, and I didn't sleep in the bed with the child. Even if I did, it's OK. I slept on the floor. I gave the bed to the child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: You think that's a smart strategy, talking about sleeping with children in your bed, even if he did or even if he slept on the floor when you're facing charges of child molestation?

OXMAN: You have to listen very carefully to what Michael says, and most importantly you have to keep your eye on the ball and be focused in this particular case. Michael does not sleep with children in his bed, and that's very crystal clear. The what-ifs, and the speculation and the philosophy, those are irrelevant to this case. This is a case about hard physical evidence, and that physical evidence is this child three times said Michael never slept with him in the bed, Michael never touched him, Michael never harmed him. That's the evidence. That's what this case is about.

O'BRIEN: That's all that a jury is going to have to actually take a look at. Dana, let's turn to you now, what did you think about Michael Jackson's -- I hate to use the word "performance," but to some degree I think when you're being interviewed in a national stage, it is a little bit of performance there. How do you think he did?

DANA COLE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Soledad, I think frankly it was probably a misstep. And that's primarily because of the tangential issue of saying that he was roughed up, manhandled, he even showed a huge bruise on his arm, which would not be where handcuffs would typically be placed.

But this is a very bizarre thing, because his own attorney was present at the booking. His own attorney has not come forward and confirmed what Michael has said to the world, and this silence is deafening, so to speak. I find it very strange, and if it turns out that he was not manhandled, then he has lied, or he has at least clearly misstated what actually occurred. And if that's the case, then it's shown that he has the ability to veer from the truth, and that could be a problem for him gown the road.

O'BRIEN: And in fact, Brian, Michael Jackson says that his shoulders were dislocated by having his hands handcuffed behind his back, and yet walking out of his arraignment, he is waving not with just one hand, but with the other hand, and then making a peace sign. You know, I'm not a doctor, but that looks pretty good to me.

OXMAN: Being arrested is not a fun experience by any stretch of the imagination, and just about every criminal defendant that is arrested is really disturbed by the process, so I don't blame Michael one solitary bit. I don't know anyone who doesn't get bruises from handcuffs, and I do know that the police do not just be kind and gentle to all criminal defendants. They are very quick, they are very deliberate, and I think that when Michael says he got roughed up, I have no doubt about it.

O'BRIEN: Brian Oxman, Dana Cole, thanks for being with us this evening.

COLE: But, Brian...

O'BRIEN: I appreciate your time, gentlemen.

COLE: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: And everybody else, thanks as well for joining us this evening. Tomorrow on PAULA ZAHN NOW, more on air safety, the new measures being taken to monitor international visitors arriving in the U.S., and Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge will join me on "AMERICAN MORNING" at 7 a.m. Eastern time. "LARRY KING LIVE" is coming up next. Have a great night, everybody. We'll see you back here tomorrow.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Attack>


Aired December 29, 2003 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): In Focus" tonight: fighting terror with guns on planes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police! Don't move!

O'BRIEN: Air marshals are ordered on international flights heading to the U.S. Can those flights ever be as safe as American airliners?

Howard Dean under attack from fellow Democrats. Is it the Democratic Party's undoing or just the way politics is always played?

And Michael Jackson's big interview. Was he really locked in the bathroom for 45 minutes? Did police really rough him up? We'll send in the truth squad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: All of that's ahead tonight, but first, here is what you need to know right now.

Iran says at least 25,000 bodies have been found beneath the earthquake-shattered city of Bam. Some fear the quake may have killed one-third of the people who live there. Mass burials are taking place in trenches just outside the city. The U.S. has sent at least 12 shipments of medicine, food, water, and blankets.

The U.S. says the cow afflicted with mad cow disease in Washington state was born just before brain and nerve tissue was banned from cattle feed in the U.S. and Canada. The disease is spread by eating infected tissue. The U.S. also says the infected cow was one of a herd of 81 brought here from Canada.

And Michael Jackson's spokesman, Stuart Backerman, spoke for himself today. He quit. Backerman says he has strategic differences with the singer accused of child molestation.

Homeland Security Chief Tom Ridge today said his agency is just as concerned about a terrorist attack this week as it was last week. And days after canceling several Air France flights into Los Angeles, Ridge announced steps to improve security on non-U.S. airlines.

We're putting that "In Focus" tonight in the first of a two-part series from Kathleen Koch. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They will be trained, armed government law enforcement officers. The U.S. will tell international passenger and cargo carriers which flights they must be on, based on the potential terrorist risk.

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: The present goal is to have armed and trained law enforcement officials on flights of interest where the information warrants that add a level of protection.

KOCH: Air marshal programs started in Israel in 1968. Since then, countries like Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Canada, Australia and Singapore have followed suit. But security experts say fewer than 10 percent of countries worldwide have air marshals. Great Britain has trained, but not deployed them, and is facing pilot opposition.

JIM MCAUSLAN, BRITISH AIRLINE PILOTS ASSN.: I think the first worry is about having guns, ballistics, in the aircraft in high- pressurized cabins. Once you try and deal with one risk, the risk of terrorism, you create another.

KOCH: Air marshals have stopped recent attempted hijackings in Jordan in 2000, and in Turkey last year.

RAFI RON, FORMER ISRAELI AIR SECURITY CHIEF: Two seconds, this guy was fall on the floor.

KOCH: But with 743 foreign carriers flying into the United States each day, only a small percentage will be covered. It's similar to the level of protection the several thousand of U.S. air marshals provide to the 22,000 domestic flights each day.

This is not the first time the U.S. has mandated, the rest of the world come up to its level of aviation security. After 9/11, all international flights into the U.S. had to install bulletproof cockpit doors. But, otherwise, there are only guidelines, no enforceable security standards every nation must follow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A substantial part of world aviation is not protected by proper aviation security.

KOCH: No mandate for an air marshal program, nor for pilots to carry guns, and, perhaps most importantly, no international requirement for bomb screening of checked baggage. The biggest post- 9/11 holes remain, say experts, in poor developing countries, because security improvements are so expensive.

(on camera): If countries don't cooperate on air marshals, the U.S. could deny their planes access, forcing a new aviation standard on a sometimes reluctant world.

Kathleen Koch, CNN, Reagan National Airport.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Now, for more on the air marshals, joining us from Washington, Billie Vincent is former head of security for the Federal Aviation Administration. And security expert Rafi Ron joins us also this evening.

Gentlemen, good evening. Thanks for being with us.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Mr. Ron, let's begin with you.

Do you expect that other countries can effectively and efficiently train air marshals to the standards that the United States expects?

RON: Well, it's not going to be easy.

But I'm sure that help will be provided, either by the United States or by other countries that have accumulated the right experience. I think that the decision to deploy air marshals on all flights to the U.S. would trigger a new standard for international aviation security.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Vincent, we heard Tom Ridge say that the air marshals would be on flights of interest, where the information would warrant them to be on that flight. What specifically does that mean and how would they decide where the information comes in? And what would warrant an air marshal being on a particular flight?

BILLIE VINCENT, FORMER FAA SECURITY CHIEF: Well, there are many ways that you can measure that.

But, most likely, that would have to do with some intelligence that they received or an evaluation of the most probable areas of attack or scenario that an adversary would take. But, generally, it would be based on some intelligence that they would have received or an analyst's opinion after having evaluated some intelligence. Most likely, it would be nonspecific, though.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Ron, do you expect that countries will cooperate? Do you expect that they will bristle against being forced to do something to U.S. standards?

RON: Well, that is yet to be seen.

But I'm sure that the position of the U.S. to create these standards is better than any other nation in the world. And I assume that no country will stop flying to the U.S. They will not take the risk of being rejected.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Vincent, two years more than -- since 9/11, why has it taken so long? Obviously, the idea of al Qaeda using airplanes as weapons is not new. It seems that 2 1/2 years, nearly, is a pretty long time for this to come into place. VINCENT: Well, a lot of things have been happening in the background. You can't come out and tell another country to put air marshals on the airplanes without some sort of basis to doing so.

If the U.S. had gone and approached other countries to do this earlier, the most likely response would have been, why should we? What's the threat? Unfortunately, the system has to work on an emergency basis. And when that's done -- and, incidentally, I issued several emergency orders when I was head of security. And people wondered why we did that.

And, of course, you can't tell them all the specifics of the intelligence that you get. So it's something that has been working all of these many months. And I commend Secretary Ridge for taking this action at this time.

And, in response to the earlier question you asked Rafi Ron -- Rafi -- generally, the rest of the world will follow what the U.S. mandates as a security standard. That's been our experience. And I would doubt that you would get a real strong objection to doing this, provided the U.S. has some rational basis for doing so.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Ron, do you think air marshals on flights, all flights now, or a bulk of the flights that are coming into the United States, that's the answer to a security problem?

RON: Well, it is a very important part of the answer. There's no question about it. Cockpit doors are also critical for that purpose. And the ground security operation, as well as good intelligence, are also very important elements in this problem.

But the problem, it must a multilayer program. And the last resort should be the air marshal on board. Without it, I'm afraid, we may doom ourselves to fail.

O'BRIEN: Rafi Ron and Billie Vincent joining me this evening -- thanks, gentlemen. Appreciate it.

VINCENT: You're welcome.

RON: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: And I want to give you this programming note. Homeland Security Tom Ridge will join us on "AMERICAN MORNING" at 7:00 a.m. Eastern time right here on CNN.

And tomorrow night on PAULA ZAHN NOW, in part two of Kathleen Koch's report, she's going to tell us what new measures the U.S. is taking to monitor international visitors.

The U.S. is warning that al Qaeda may be planning terror attacks against American interests in Saudi Arabia. Today, a car belonging to a Saudi Arabia intelligence officer exploded in Riyadh. No one was injured.

Last May, suicide bombers killed 35, wounded hundreds there. But Saudi officials are hoping to reduce the threat with crackdowns on Islamic militants.

Joining us this evening from Dallas is someone who knows the situation there very well. He is the former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Robert Jordan, who just stepped down in December.

Ambassador Jordan, nice to have you. Thank you for joining us.

ROBERT JORDAN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA: Good evening.

O'BRIEN: Give me a sense of what is known about this recent attack. As I just mentioned, a Saudi intelligence officer appears to have been the target. Do we know more than that about this?

JORDAN: No, this is still very preliminary. And we don't have any further information at this time.

It does come on the heels, though, of an attack on December the 4th against the head of the Saudi secret police and his brother. They both were injured. The brother, in fact, has been very seriously injured. I believe he's still in the hospital. So this is not unlike what we have seen actually in Iraq, where the terrorists are now attacking those who are helping us fight the war on terror, those who are engaged in behalf of trying to stamp out al Qaeda and the other terrorists.

The Saudis are now in the line of fire. And people in these responsible positions, I think, are in some jeopardy right now.

O'BRIEN: So it sounds as if things on the ground there, then, are growing more volatile. Is that the sense that you had when you were there last, that things are getting more out of control?

JORDAN: I don't think out of control is exactly the right word. Certainly, in the aftermath of May the 12th, I was very unhappy with the security arrangements that had been made, primarily at the Western housing compounds.

Since that wakeup call of May the 12th, we've seen a dramatic improvement in the security the Saudis have provided. They have got tanks and armored personnel carriers all over the towns and the locations where Westerners might be. I spoke even today with a senior official in the embassy in Riyadh. They continue to believe that the Saudis are providing excellent cooperation.

But the problem we have is, we don't know how deep this terrorist threat really goes. Are we at the tip of the iceberg or are we somewhere down that iceberg? And I don't think either the Saudis or the Americans really know the answer to that right now.

O'BRIEN: Do you feel that the Saudis are being cooperative in trying to answer that question? Are we at the tip of the iceberg or somewhere near the bottom?

JORDAN: They're desperately trying to answer the question, because they have realized, particularly since the May the 12th, that this is really a fight against them as much as it is against us. It's personal now and it's a duel to the death. These terrorists are really after the Saudi regime right now.

O'BRIEN: There's some reports of British intelligence saying that there are planned attacks, or attacks that are in maybe the final stages of preparation in Riyadh.

Have you seen, in the wake of reports like that, a change in the attitudes of not only the Saudi royal family, but all Saudis?

JORDAN: I think all Saudis are now absolutely horrified at the loss of life, at the senseless loss of life that we have seen since May the 12th.

They've had Arabs and Muslims killed now, which I think has made a tremendous impact on the Saudi population. They don't like to have guests in their country, even Westerners, harmed. But when it really gets personal is when you see Arabs and Muslims, as we've seen both in the November attacks and the May attacks, as victims. So I think we're now seeing perhaps a sea change. And it may well be that al Qaeda has gone too far in Saudi Arabia and they are now losing the support of the population.

I think it's too early to completely answer that question, but it's one that I'm hearing more and more comment about as time goes on.

O'BRIEN: It will be interesting to see what is the case as time goes on.

Ambassador -- former Ambassador Robert Jordan joining us this evening, sir, thank you for your time. Appreciate it.

JORDAN: Sure. Thank you.

O'BRIEN: And still ahead tonight, the controversy over Halliburton's multibillion dollar contract in Iraq is heating up. Would the company have gotten the lucrative deal if Al Gore was president? We'll take a look at that.

And then the in-fighting among Democrats. Are attacks on Howard Dean and his counterattacks helping or hurting their cause?

Also, it's been seven years since JonBenet Ramsey was murdered. Now will new DNA tests lead to her killer?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Halliburton, the oil services company based in Texas and tied to Vice President Dick Cheney, its former CEO, has been getting a gusher of bad publicity lately. The criticism mostly involves cost overruns, no bid-contracts and a Pentagon audit that found a Halliburton subsidiary overcharged the military by $61 million for gasoline in Iraq.

But if Al Gore had won the 2000 election, would it have made any difference? Joining us this evening from Washington D.C., Peter Beinart. He is the editor of "The New Republic."

Nice to see you. Thanks for joining us.

Also, "Wall Street Journal" columnist John Fund is joining us from Sacramento.

Gentlemen, good evening.

PETER BEINART, EDITOR, "THE NEW REPUBLIC": Good evening.

O'BRIEN: John, let's begin with you.

To what degree -- and we'll start with the question that we've just posed right there -- to what degree do you think things would be different in Iraq as it goes with the multibillion dollar contracts to repair the oil fields and such if a Democrat were in the White House?

JOHN FUND, COLUMNIST, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": Well, I think there's a possibility we wouldn't have gone into Iraq.

But if we had, I think that, since there are only a couple of companies in the world that have the kind of expertise does, they would be in there, perhaps not to the same extent, but they'd be there.

O'BRIEN: Would you agree with that, Peter?

BEINART: Not exactly.

It's not just that Halliburton is in there. It's way they got the contract. The Bush administration gave them a no-bid contract last fall. That might have been OK for a short period of time, but it was supposed to be replaced with competitive bidding in April. We've still not had competitive bidding for that Halliburton contract. That I would hope a Democrat would not have done, because it violates the market principles that conservatives even are supposed to believe in.

O'BRIEN: So, is it fair to say that Halliburton is essentially taking advantage of its ties to the White House, or is it just taking advantage of a situation? As the executives there would say, we got in there. It was a bad situation, far worse than anybody thought it was going to be. And we've sort of ridden that wave, trying to help every step of the way.

BEINART: Look, who knows whether it was favoritism or incompetence or what.

But I think what we do know is that we would all agree that no- bid contracts are a bad idea. In very limited circumstances, for short period of times, they might be OK. But we've now been in Iraq for like nine months. And it seems to me that we should have had competitive bidding, and we've not had competitive bidding. And so it's not that surprising that Halliburton is taking advantage of that.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: John, I see you nodding your head. Yes?

FUND: Well, before we turn over foreign policy to the bean counters, let's stipulate that, now that Saddam Hussein is caught, and now that I think we've turned some significant corners in Iraq, I think we're going to get back to business as usual, which includes competitive bidding.

But in the last nine months, it has been a mess. I've talked to several people who have been over there. There was no way you were going to be able to do that. Halliburton and the other companies in there really did an amazing job. Halliburton has lost 10 people dead in Iraq because of that. National Public Radio did a report on Christmas Eve which talked about how grateful the troops were that they have portable potties, that they hot meals.

So, as much as Halliburton is in the crosshairs, they've also done an incredible jobs the troops appreciate.

O'BRIEN: At the same time, if you get back to what the bean counters would say, the company's initial estimates on some of the jobs have been off by as much as 40 percent. If you had a contractor doing something in your home, you would not put up with that.

(CROSSTALK)

FUND: In the middle of a war situation, anybody can happen. I support complete auditing. I think Halliburton is probably going to be watched more closely than any American company in recent history. And if they owe money, the taxpayers should get it back. And they will.

BEINART: Well, but, in fact, the Pentagon has shown -- the initial Pentagon audit report showed that Halliburton had overcharged on those fuel delivery costs.

And I think that it's not acceptable, it seems to me, to go for nine months with one company having a contract and no other companies having the chance to say, look, we can do it cheaper. And this dismissal of bean counters, again, is somewhat ironic for conservatives, who are supposed to be concerned about American taxpayer money.

(CROSSTALK)

FUND: Peter, sequencing. We first have the war.

(CROSSTALK)

FUND: And then, if the auditors come back and say that Halliburton owes money...

BEINART: They have.

FUND: ... and it's now time for competitive bidding, yes, we will do that. And it's going to be done. And it is being done.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Hold on one second, Peter.

At the same time, John, you have a company that is not incentivized, if that's a word, or maybe I'm making it up, to cut costs, because, certainly, in the gasoline price situation, the money that they get is their cost, plus a percentage of the costs. So the higher the cost goes, they actually rake in more money. And so you have what many people, bean counters, possibly, would say is a completely untenable situation for trying to maintain any controls on costs.

FUND: The contracts are written very specifically. If Halliburton owes money, it is going to come back.

In the fog of war -- and believe me, Iraq is a chaotic situation -- all kinds of things can happen, depending on whether fuel is coming in from Turkey, whether it's coming in from Kuwait. I'm sure we're all going to sort it out. The bottom line is, the American people, we have to win the peace and we also have to make sure that taxpayers get good value for their money. That is going to take some time to sort out, but it is going to happen.

O'BRIEN: Peter, I'm going to give the final question to you.

Executives from Halliburton would say, hey, you know what? We did business in the Middle East before President Bush and Dick Cheney were in the White House. We will do business after President Bush and Dick Cheney are out of the White House. They would say your argument has no merit, based on those grounds alone.

BEINART: Of course they -- look, they're one of the best companies in the world. There's no question about that. But they're not the only company.

And even if they were to win the contract, the very process of competitive bidding would probably force their price down and make them more conscientious. That's the point that I think we're trying to make.

(CROSSTALK)

FUND: The original contract they won, Peter, was competitively bid

(CROSSTALK)

BEINART: Yes, but that was not for Iraq. That was back in 2001. The Bush administration said it would have competitive contracts for Iraq by June. And it hasn't.

FUND: We had a war.

(CROSSTALK) O'BRIEN: Gentlemen, you two can continue your argument while we move on to our next segment.

But, John Fund and Peter Beinart, seriously, thank you very much. Appreciate your insight on this topic.

Well, the great car giveaway in Iraq. Find out why U.S. troops are letting locals drive away with brand-new wheels.

Also, over-the-counter cough medicine and how some children across the country are turning it into a potentially deadly high.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: It's clear that it's taking a lot of effort on the part of the U.S. military to earn the trust of Iraqi citizens. In particular, one group of soldiers in Saddam Hussein's hometown has learned that sometimes the shortest path to a good result is down an unconventional road.

Alphonso Van Marsh of CNN International explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALPHONSO VAN MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Muslim religious leaders came packed in a minivan, but they would each leave in their own Peugeot Sedan, courtesy of the United States Army.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We offer these cars in a sign of good faith to the religious engagement process from the commanding general.

VAN MARSH: U.S. officials insisting the keys to the free vehicles to help imams in Salah ad Din Province visit more of the faithful in less time.

MAJOR DEREK JORDAN, U.S. ARMY: It's kind of the same thing like when we repair a water station. We're not trying to bribe a water plant director. We are trying to make sure the water works for that community.

VAN MARSH: Smiling for photos, the imams expressed gratitude for the gifts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is our intent to help you spread the word and educate your all communities.

VAN MARSH: But through a translator, the imams said U.S. forces could use their own religious education.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said some of coalition forces described as Osama bin Laden (UNINTELLIGIBLE), according to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) He say, Osama bin Laden come down from the top. He said, why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The U.S. forces accused him of being a part of Osama bin Laden?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to -- plan for collision forces not (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Osama bin Laden.

VAN MARSH: An eager Army major heard the imams out and promised he would share their concerns with the military chain of command.

JORDAN: We're going to have to communicate that that is improper behavior.

VAN MARSH: Hurt feelings aside, they did not leave without their free wheels.

(on camera): What started as a great car giveaway grew to include a lesson in religious sensitivity, proof that the American campaign to win over so-called hearts and minds here is an ever- evolving process.

Alphonso Van Marsh, CNN, Tikrit, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: The Michael Jackson interview. Was he telling the truth about being locked in the bathroom by police, about being roughed up?

And are the punches and counterpunches among the Democrats helping or hurting their own cause?

And, tomorrow: Democrats go South. We'll see why they're paying so much attention so early to Southern states

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.

Searchers in San Bernardino, California are still trying to find the body of one child who was lost in the Christmas Day mudslides before a fresh onslaught of rain threatens to cause even more slides in the area; 13 other bodies have already been pulled from the Old Waterman Canyon area in the last four days.

Is Saddam talking? One member of the Iraqi Governing Council says he is and that he's revealing where he may have stashed as much as $40 billion looted from the Iraqi treasury. Dr. Iyad Allawi told two Arab newspaper that Hussein says he invested the money in Switzerland, Japan, and Germany.

The earthquake in Iran happened more than three days ago. The time for rescuing survivors from the rubble is rapidly passing away.

And, as Matthew Chance now reports, the living have an almost overwhelming task ahead, that of burying their dead.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the human cost of the catastrophe that's befallen Bam. With thousands of bodies already recovered, mass graves are being filled as fast as they can be dug. This is burial on an industrial scale. Few here have been spared death or grief. Local clerics supervising the funeral rights are overwhelmed by the sheer numbers. "We are preparing the ground for 70,000 graves," one told me. "We're trying to give them all respect and an Islamic funeral. But it's becoming very hard for us. There are so many," he says.

Exact numbers of dead in this disaster zone have still to be reckoned.

(on camera): This is a grave site of enormous proportions, because it has to be. The bodies are being buried 100 at a time. Most will never be identified. The authorities say, quite simply, there is nobody left in Bam who knows who they are.

(voice-over): In the ruins of the town, efforts continued to dig for survivors. But this is an increasingly desperate search. And there's debate about whether the time has now come to stop.

'There is slim hope," says one man, "that someone could be found alive." "No," says another. "People need air. And there is none under all this rubble."

Time may well have run out for anyone still trapped. But it's clear the cost of this catastrophe may yet exceed this country's worst fears.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Bam, in Southeastern Iran.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: On to politics now.

Not that it hasn't happened before, but in the campaign for president, the Democrats continue to dis each other.

Senior political correspondent Candy Crowley reports on the squabble that some critics have compared to a circular firing squad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(APPLAUSE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The season to be jolly rarely ever is when it's also election season. So, when Howard Dean seemed to question the guilt of Osama bin Laden in connection with 9/11, John Kerry said Dean's thinking is muddled. Joe Lieberman called him a "foreign policy rookie." Dick Gephardt wondered if Dean is electable, and Dean blamed the head of the Democratic Party for allowing his rivals to say such things. "If we had strong leadership in the Democratic Party," he told "The New York Times," "they would be calling those other candidates and saying, 'hey, look, somebody's going to have to win here."

Dean also implied if he's not nominated, millions of new to politics supporters might stay home. Rival campaigns went into orbit. John Kerry called it "a divisive, threatening statement." Gephardt suggested Dean wants a coronation. Dean, they said, can't take it, but sure can dish it out.

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We cannot beat George Bush by being Bush-lite.

CROWLEY: Dean may be the frontrunner, but he will never be elected Ms. Congeniality by rivals.

DEAN: What Joe and others are doing on Israel is despicable.

CROWLEY: Doth he protest too much? Dean is virtually bulletproof among his true believers. In fact, nothing fills his coffers like an incoming missile.

Here with the latest fund-raising pitch, courtesy Al Gore. "Howard Dean," Gore said, "needs the resources to respond to these attacks and get his message to the American people."

In the end, it may be that Howard Dean is getting not what he deserves, but exactly what he wants.

Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: An inside view now on Dean and the Democrats. In Washington, Steve Elmendorf is chief of staff for the campaign of Dick Gephardt. Craig Smith is campaign manager for Joe Lieberman. New York Congressman Jerrold Nadler is a Dean supporter. And from Little Rock, Arkansas, Chris Lehane, he's the communications director for Wesley Clark's campaign.

Gentlemen, good evening. Thanks for being with us. Craig, let's begin with you. We heard, of course, Howard Dean complaining that these have been some vicious attacks by his fellow Democrats. I believe he's talked about buckshot -- removing buckshot from his rear- end.

I want to read to you what Senator Lieberman said on "Meet the Press." He said this: "If Howard Dean had his way, Saddam Hussein would be in power today, not in prison." Do you think this is the start of a healthy debate, or do you think that, as Howard Dean would say, kind of a cheap shot?

CRAIG SMITH, CAMPAIGN MANAGER FOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: Well, I think politics isn't patty cake here. You know? Howard Dean was the one, as you just showed, that called Joe Lieberman despicable. Howard Dean was the one who launched the first negative ad of this campaign. Howard Dean's referred to Democratic members of Congress as cockroaches. You know, just last week, Howard Dean referred to moderates within this party as GOP Democrats. You know, this is tough stuff. You know, if he can't take the heat, he needs to get out of the kitchen here. O'BRIEN: So it sounds like you're saying the good doctor is protesting too much. Jerrold Nadler, let's get you to defend your candidate. Why do you think it's a cheap shot and not just, hey, politics isn't patty cake, as we just heard?

REP. JERROLD NADLER (D), NEW YORK: Well, politics isn't patty cake, and it's perfectly legitimate to point out differences between you and your opponents and your approach, et cetera. I do feel, however, that Democrats should observe what Ronald Reagan proposed for Republicans as their 11th Commandment, which is don't make the kind of criticism of opponents which will come back and haunt you in November from the other party.

So, for example, when -- if Joe Lieberman wanted to say that he disagreed with Howard Dean, as he does -- I mean, on the war, he was for it, and Dean is against it -- that's legitimate. For him to say, however, that if Dean was -- if it were up to Dean, Saddam would still be in power, well, that's true, but it's a cheap shot, because that isn't the question. The question is, yeah, he'd be in power, but a few hundred Americans would be alive today, we would not have spent a few hundred billion dollars, al Qaeda would have a lot fewer recruits, we wouldn't have been diverted from the war on terrorism. And that's the debate, which is, was the war worth it? And simply to say that Saddam would be in power is a cheap shot, as if he supported Saddam.

O'BRIEN: Of course, the longer answer -- the longer answer, of course, is not much of a soundbite, and it seems like the candidates tend to try to go for soundbites.

Steve Elmendorf, how much of a concern do you have about what we just heard from Congressman Nadler, which is your candidate's quote is going to look great in an ad that the Republicans run a little bit later down the road in 2004? Let me read to you what Dick Gephardt had to say -- "Time after time, when faced with budget shortfalls, Howard Dean's first and only instinct was to cut. Cut education, cut prescription drug coverage, cut Medicaid funding, cut aid to the blind and the disabled." Coming from Dick Gephardt, that might look pretty good in a Republican ad, don't you think?

STEVE ELMENDORF, GEPHARDT CHIEF OF STAFF: We're going to have a healthy debate about the issues from now until January 19 and beyond as this race begins. What's most amazing about what Dr. Dean has done so far is before the first vote has even been cast, he's calling for a time-out. If he can't take the criticism now, what is he going to do when George Bush and Karl Rove start on him?

O'BRIEN: So, do you think then, Congressman Nadler, that Howard Dean is complaining too much, that frankly this is just good preparation for the general election, this is easy stuff?

NADLER: No, I don't think so at all. I think it is true that you have to anticipate a lot of criticism from George Bush for whoever the nominee is, which I presume probably will be Dr. Dean, but the fact is, it's still absolutely true what Governor Dean said, which is that the leadership of the party should be trying to prevent the candidates from making the kinds of cheap-shot criticisms that will help the Republican candidate, President Bush, eventually. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms you can make that aren't going to be downed (ph) against you -- against the eventual nominee of the party next November.

O'BRIEN: Here is what Howard Dean -- forgive me for interrupting, let me just throw in what your candidate had to say. Howard Dean said Gephardt lacked executive experience, said Clark was a Republican until 25 days ago, said Lieberman was a Washington politician who would promise you everything. Is your own candidate going to stick to maybe reining in the negative comments, the cheap shots?

NADLER: Again, I don't think it's just a question of negative comments. Candidates are entitled to make negative comments about each other if they're true and in context. It's negative comments that are going to be used by the Republicans that you don't want. So saying that -- some of the comments that Governor Dean made are the kind of criticisms that you will not hear from the Republicans. Saying that a candidate isn't liberal enough is not a criticism you're going to hear from George Bush later, for example.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk a little bit about, Chris, what Wesley Clark, your candidate, had to say in a radio broadcast. Let me read it to you. He says -- "I didn't have as much practice skiing as the governor did. He was out there skiing when I was recovering from my wounds in Vietnam." And I should note for you, he said this on the day that Howard Dean was picking up his brother's remains recovered from Laos. Do you think that was sort of a cheap shot?

CHRIS LEHANE, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, WESLEY CLARK: Well, you know, as someone who has served his country in combat and actually did receive four bullet wounds from an AK-47, real bullet wounds, not buckshot, political rhetoric buckshot that Howard Dean is talking about, I think, you know, Wes Clark has found the primary process a lot easier than actually being in real combat.

I mean, the real issue here is we all know what's going to happen when we get to general election next year. The real issue is that George W. Bush is going to be challenging Democrats' patriotism, they are going to be challenging whether Democrats can stand up to the terrorists, they're going to be challenging our plans in Iraq, and we're going to need a candidate that can go toe to toe with George W. Bush. Wes Clark has four stars on his shoulder. A Silver Star...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: ... because I know where you stand. I mean, obviously, he's your candidate, so I get that you think he's the best guy for the job, but I'm curious to understand if you're saying then that all this infighting doesn't matter, because at the end of the day, the Bush campaign is going to have a different strategy, and it really doesn't matter what names the Democrats call each other? Is that what you're saying?

LEHANE: The point I'm making is what's going on right now is the equivalent of thumb-wrestling compared to the real fight that is going to take place next fall when George W. Bush is coming after whoever the Democratic nominee is with both barrels. And you are going to need a candidate who can stand up. If Howard Dean is willing under the pressure right now, imagine what happens when you get to the real show next fall.

I thought it was interesting that Congressman Nadler invoked this Ronald Reagan's 11th Commandment. I remember in the 2000 election, when he was a surrogate for Bill Bradley and Bill Bradley was attacking another Democrat, Al Gore, at that time, ironically enough, I did not see Jerry Nadler up there invoking the 11th Commandment at that point. So I think there is a little bit of hypocrisy going on here.

NADLER: Well...

O'BRIEN: That's going to be our final word this evening. We've covered thumb-wrestling and we've covered patty cake. I think we got every word in. Gentlemen...

LEHANE: It's always best to get the last punch in.

O'BRIEN: ... of course (UNINTELLIGIBLE) again, and I'm sure we will do it once again. Steve Elmendorf, Craig Smith, Congressman Nadler and Wesley Clark's strategist, Chris Lehane, joining us this evening. Thanks, gentlemen, appreciate your time.

The unsolved murder of JonBenet Ramsey seven years later, will new DNA tests of blood found at the scene of the crime lead police to her killer?

Plus, getting high on cough medicine. Some say the new trend among teenagers is having deadly consequences.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: When you get a cough, you take cough medicine, right? Well, unless you're a teenager and you want to get high. Then that cough medicine turns into a new drug of choice for some teenage kids, and it's one that can be bought straight over the counter at your local pharmacy.

Joining us this evening from San Antonio, Texas is James Haag, he abused these types of drugs when he was a teenager, and Will Brown, who's the executive director at Palmer Drug Abuse Program.

Gentlemen, thanks for being with us. I appreciate your time. James, how old were you when you started to abuse cough medicine?

JAMES HAAG, FORMER DMX ABUSER: I was probably about 14.

O'BRIEN: How did you get it?

How did you know what to do?

HAAG: I had some friends at school that were doing it at the time, and they just told me what to buy, what it looked like, what type it was, and I just walked to the nearest grocery store and stole it.

O'BRIEN: You stole it. So, no one ever suspected you were grabbing packets and packets of pills?

HAAG: No.

O'BRIEN: How long were you abusing cough medicine for?

HAAG: There was an initial abuse from the time I figured it out, what it was, until make two, three months later that I was using it all the time every day, never coming down.

O'BRIEN: So give me a sense of how many pills -- after your very worst, how bad was it?

What were you taking?

HAAG: Probably 50 pills per high, and that was about three highs per day.

O'BRIEN: Will, how big of a problem is what we're hearing James describe?

How big of a problem is this across the board among teenagers.

WILL BROWN, PALMER DRUG ABUSE PROGRAM: It's definitely an emerging trend. The problem that we're having right now is no federal entity is studying this, so we have some data in Texas and a lot of poison control centers have published results of emergency room visits and calls to poison control centers, so it is definitely an emerging trend.

O'BRIEN: The key ingredient, what the kids are really abusing is dextromethorphan or DMX, that's the active ingredient, the cough suppressant. What exactly does that do to your body when you're taking these abnormally large doses well outside what's recommended?

We should mention all these drugs are over the counter. You can go and buy them at the pharmacy.

BROWN: There's difficult plateaus in the use. If you take a little bit over the recommended dosage, you get a feeling of being drunk and stoned. When you go into the second plateau and the third plateau, then you're looking at a dissociative effect, kind of like LSD or PCP. So it can be really dangerous.

O'BRIEN: Do you think the sale of cough medicine should be restrictive in some way. I mean, some pharmacies have taken steps to put the certain medicine behind the counter so anybody who wants access would have to go see the pharmacist and get it.

BROWN: We had a retailer in San Antonio that did just that based on reports on our local news. They pulled some of the most commonly abused products and put them behind a counter. Statewide, we have actually worked with local representative to get, among other things, some of these most commonly abused products placed behind the counter, and accessible only with staff from a retailer.

O'BRIEN: James, give me a sense, describe for me, were these drugs addictive?

I mean, was it something that once you started you just couldn't stop?

HAAG: It was very, very addictive. It was something that you would usually use once and you wouldn't come down for a long time, and when you come down off of it, it's not the best thing in the world. You start sweating, cold sweats, very much like coming down off an alcoholic who's drank for years and years coming down, without the death of the person who's coming down.

O'BRIEN: How long have you been clean, and why did you stop?

HAAG: I've been clean off of all drugs and alcohol for just over two years. The way I came off of the Coricidin, I basically had to stop using it. My parents were watching me, and I ended up crawling into a corner and having some very bad withdrawals. And I countered that, of course, later on with more drugs, but eventually, I did quit.

O'BRIEN: Well, James Haag, Will Brown, thanks for joining us this evening to talk about this drug. I think it's fascinating, especially for those that haven't heard of it, or heard it's addictive. And James, congratulations on your sobriety for two years. Good for you.

HAAG: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Seven years later, the murder of JonBenet Ramsey, it's still not solved. And now her parents are hoping a new DNA test will end the mystery.

And roughed up and locked up in the bathroom, we're going to send in the truth squad to check out Michael Jackson's big interview.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: It's been seven years since JonBenet Ramsey was found murdered in her parents home in Boulder, Colorado.

After all this time, the question remains, who killed the child beauty queen?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Tonight her family is hoping new evidence will solve that mystery. For seven year a Colorado killer has remained on the loose, and for seven years, a family has lived under a cloud of suspicion.

PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: I think the only thing that will make them completely change their mind is to hand over the killer, and I can't do that. O'BRIEN: Since the day's following the murder, the investigation seemed to focus on three people in the house the night she was killed, mother Patsey, father Jonn, and brother Burke. All along, family members have maintained their innocents. In the years, they moved to Atlanta, Patsy struggled with cancer and Colorado police failed to arrest a suspect.

Last year a new district attorney took over the Ramsey case and some say for the first time, aggressively pursued DNA evidence. Early in the investigation, DNA tests of blood found on her underwear indicated it was from a male who was not a member of the Ramsey family. At the time, the DNA sample wasn't good enough to compare to a national data bank of known as criminals and unsolved cases, now the Ramseys say a high-quality sample has been found and sent to the FBI for comparison. The hope for authorities, that a killer will be identified, and for the Ramsey's, potentially the end of a seven-year ordeal.

JONN RAMSEY, FATHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: We want peace for our family, we want closure, our name and our family's name has been destroyed. We'll never regain that, and we have no interest in attempting to do that. We want the killer of our daughter found.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Earlier this year a federal judge dismissed a libel and slander suit against JonBenet Ramsey's parents. The judge said a majority of the evidence she saw suggested an intruder was responsible for JonBenet's death.

Joins this evening from Atlanta is Lin Wood, the attorney for the Ramseys.

Nice to see you sir. Thanks for being with us.

LIN WOOD, RAMSEY, FAMILY ATTORNEY: My pleasure Soledad.

Explain something to me. Seven years later, suddenly there's this new DNA sample that hadn't been tested.

How is that possible?

WOOD: Well, actually, it particular DNA was extracted from a spot of blood found on JonBenet's underwear in 1999, and it was known at that time that the DNA from that spot of blood was high quality, right at the necessary standard to meet the FBI DNA data bank requirements, but the Boulder Police Department did not pursue that DNA. It was only last December of last year when Mary Keenan, the district attorney, took the case away from the Boulder Police Department and brought the investigation under her jurisdiction, that she made pursuing the DNA her number one priority to get that DNA into the FBI data bank, which was finally done this November. So it could have been done long ago.

O'BRIEN: So the first blood -- spot of blood that was found was tested in 1997. This second sample that we're talking about was tested in 1999, as you say. Where has it been all this time? It's been on a shelf somewhere?

WOOD: Basically sitting on the shelf of the Boulder Police Department. I don't know where they keep the actual specimen, but the profile was there, it was available from 1999 on, it's a quality specimen, it meets the stringent requirements of the FBI database, and it will eventually solve this crime. When you find the match to this DNA profile, you will find the killer of JonBenet Ramsey.

O'BRIEN: That's a very big if, sir, as you well know. The tests, as you say, are going to be done at the FBI, they have the sample now, but there can't be a match until there's a suspect, right?

WOOD: No, not right at all. It's not a big if. The data bank allows this sample to be compared to other DNA profiles, other DNA from convicted violent offenders or from unsolved violent crimes on a regular basis to see if there's a match. There's about a two-year backlog right now in local and state crime labs getting DNA into the FBI data bank, and so I think it's not an if, it's just a matter of when.

O'BRIEN: As you mentioned, the new DA, Mary Keenan, she's pretty much cleared the Ramseys. Do you think at this point she's put most of the speculation that the parents were somehow involved in this child's murder to rest?

WOOD: I sure hope so, Soledad. The time of making accusations against this family should have ended a long time ago. They have been victims of an unfair and an unjust investigation. They've been falsely accused for years. The last year, things have turned around for them. I give a lot of credit to federal judge Julie Carnes for the courage she showed in her ruling in March of this year, and the courage shown by Mary Keenan in supporting Judge Carnes' conclusion that the weight of the evidence demonstrated that an intruder killed JonBenet.

But I got to tell you something, I give most of the courage to my clients. They have endured tragedy, they have endured accusation, and they have survived it with dignity and grace. They are remarkable people, and I look forward to the day when I share with them the joy in finding that the killer of JonBenet has been brought to justice.

O'BRIEN: Well, I think everyone would like to look forward to that day, when the killer of JonBenet is brought to justice. Lin Wood, thanks for being with us this evening. We appreciate it.

WOOD: Thank you, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Michael Jackson tells his side of the story, including new allegations of police mistreatment. Did what he say do more harm than good?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Now to Michael Jackson. His first televised interview since being arrested on child molestation charges aired last night on "60 Minutes." Jackson had plenty to say, including this denial of the allegations against him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, ENTERTAINER: Before I would hurt a child, I would slit my wrists. I would never hurt a child. It is totally false. I was outraged. I could never do something like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Jackson also said there's nothing wrong with having a child sleep in his bed, and he accused police of roughing him up, dislocating his shoulder and humiliating him by locking him in a bathroom.

Joining us this evening from Los Angeles is Jackson family attorney Brian Oxman, and from Palm Springs, criminal defense attorney, Dana Cole. Good evening, gentlemen, nice to have you, thanks for being with us.

Brian, let's begin with you.

BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Thank you. We've heard that Michael Jackson's spokesman just quit, really, you know, not very long ago, maybe you know, a half hour, an hour ago, something like that. Any idea why?

OXMAN: Michael has a history of having lots of people come through his business organization. And it is always a tradition in his life that he has new blood and new people come in. I haven't heard the story behind what's going on with Mr. Backerman. I have just the highest regard for him, I think he's great, and if there's someone else to come on board, that's Michael's decision. And so be it.

O'BRIEN: So he likes having new blood rotate in every once in a while and the fact that his big interview on "60 Minutes..."

OXMAN: Oh, my goodness...

O'BRIEN: ... oh my goodness, and the fact that he...

OXMAN: Oh, yes.

O'BRIEN: ... did an interview on "60 Minutes" last night maybe had nothing to do with this decision, in your mind?

OXMAN: No. No, I don't see it as having anything to do with it. I told Mr. Backerman that once you're in the Jackson family, you are always in the Jackson family, so Mr. Backerman is really a very fine fellow.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk a little bit about some of the things that were said in this interview, Brian, on "60 Minutes" last night. The first piece I want to play for you from the interview, Michael Jackson talks about children sleeping in his bed. Let's listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: If you're going to be a pedophile, if you're going to be Jack the Ripper, if you're going to be a murderer, it's not a good idea. That, I'm not. That's how we were raised, and I didn't sleep in the bed with the child. Even if I did, it's OK. I slept on the floor. I gave the bed to the child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: You think that's a smart strategy, talking about sleeping with children in your bed, even if he did or even if he slept on the floor when you're facing charges of child molestation?

OXMAN: You have to listen very carefully to what Michael says, and most importantly you have to keep your eye on the ball and be focused in this particular case. Michael does not sleep with children in his bed, and that's very crystal clear. The what-ifs, and the speculation and the philosophy, those are irrelevant to this case. This is a case about hard physical evidence, and that physical evidence is this child three times said Michael never slept with him in the bed, Michael never touched him, Michael never harmed him. That's the evidence. That's what this case is about.

O'BRIEN: That's all that a jury is going to have to actually take a look at. Dana, let's turn to you now, what did you think about Michael Jackson's -- I hate to use the word "performance," but to some degree I think when you're being interviewed in a national stage, it is a little bit of performance there. How do you think he did?

DANA COLE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Soledad, I think frankly it was probably a misstep. And that's primarily because of the tangential issue of saying that he was roughed up, manhandled, he even showed a huge bruise on his arm, which would not be where handcuffs would typically be placed.

But this is a very bizarre thing, because his own attorney was present at the booking. His own attorney has not come forward and confirmed what Michael has said to the world, and this silence is deafening, so to speak. I find it very strange, and if it turns out that he was not manhandled, then he has lied, or he has at least clearly misstated what actually occurred. And if that's the case, then it's shown that he has the ability to veer from the truth, and that could be a problem for him gown the road.

O'BRIEN: And in fact, Brian, Michael Jackson says that his shoulders were dislocated by having his hands handcuffed behind his back, and yet walking out of his arraignment, he is waving not with just one hand, but with the other hand, and then making a peace sign. You know, I'm not a doctor, but that looks pretty good to me.

OXMAN: Being arrested is not a fun experience by any stretch of the imagination, and just about every criminal defendant that is arrested is really disturbed by the process, so I don't blame Michael one solitary bit. I don't know anyone who doesn't get bruises from handcuffs, and I do know that the police do not just be kind and gentle to all criminal defendants. They are very quick, they are very deliberate, and I think that when Michael says he got roughed up, I have no doubt about it.

O'BRIEN: Brian Oxman, Dana Cole, thanks for being with us this evening.

COLE: But, Brian...

O'BRIEN: I appreciate your time, gentlemen.

COLE: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: And everybody else, thanks as well for joining us this evening. Tomorrow on PAULA ZAHN NOW, more on air safety, the new measures being taken to monitor international visitors arriving in the U.S., and Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge will join me on "AMERICAN MORNING" at 7 a.m. Eastern time. "LARRY KING LIVE" is coming up next. Have a great night, everybody. We'll see you back here tomorrow.

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