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Paula Zahn Now

Judge Throws Out Martha Stewart Fraud Charge; Powell Talks Frankly About Iraq, Personal Life; States Racing for Same Sex Marriage Laws

Aired February 27, 2004 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAUL ZAHN, HOST: I'm Paula Zahn. The world, the news, the names, the faces and where we go from here on this Friday, February 27, 2004.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): In focus tonight, a charge dismissed. Martha Stewart's judge tosses out the most serious count against her. Will the rest of the case fold up?

Also, part two of my exclusive interview with Colin Powell. Tonight, the secretary of state on the case he made for war and his future.

If President Bush is re-elected, do you see yourself playing a role in a second administration?

And the most money: the annual list of the world's richest people. Some familiar names and some surprising new faces.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: All that and more ahead. First, though, here are some headlines you need to know right now.

Anarchy. That is what the situation in Haiti is being called tonight. Rebels are advancing on Port-au-Prince, and CNN is reporting armed gangs are now patrolling the streets. People are being killed execution style.

The Associated Press is reporting that that FBI is reviewing part of the investigation in the Oklahoma City bombing. That has reopened the question of whether bomber Timothy McVeigh had more accomplices.

The A.P. says the FBI wants to find out why some documents related to the 1995 bombing never reached the agency.

A special prosecutor has been named to investigate accusations of sexual misconduct at the University of Colorado and its football team. Colorado State Attorney General Ken Salazar will lead the inquiry. There have been six allegations of rape against C.U. football players since 2000.

In focus tonight, the victory for Martha Stewart, at least an initial victory, heading into Monday's closing arguments. The judge today dismissed, that is, the most serious charge against her, securities fraud. Joining us now, senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and "People" magazine's Sharon Cotliar.

Welcome back.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.

ZAHN: Were you surprised?

TOOBIN: Yes, basically. I mean, I think it was a close call. The judge obviously was uncomfortable with this charge from the beginning. She called it novel in an initial discussion about it.

But I thought she would let the jury get the case, this charge. But she didn't, so one charge down, the only charge that came with a five -- a 10-year penalty, and four to go.

ZAHN: What else does she face?

TOOBIN: Conspiracy, two counts of making false statements, and obstruction of justice. Very serious charges, all felonies, all carrying five-year jail time. But you know, you've got to get rid of one at a time, and she's got one gone.

ZAHN: You spoke with members of Martha's camp after this ruling today. What was their reaction?

SHARON COTLIAR, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: They're very happy. They went out to lunch in Chinatown. They actually walked there from the courthouse. And people were cheering her, saying, "You go, girl!" And "Go, Martha."

And then they dined on Peking Duck and chicken dumplings.

So this was good news to them.

ZAHN: Any news on whether it met her standards? The meal?

COTLIAR: That I did not hear.

ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit more about how this jury -- decision might affect the jury. Was the jury aware that the judge was going to dismiss, or potentially dismiss, this other charge?

TOOBIN: Almost certainly not. They would have to remember the opening arguments in extreme detail to be able to compare it to this -- to what they hear in the jury instructions. I doubt it. So I don't think the jury will care.

In a funny way, I could see this helping the government. Because the government now can concentrate entirely on its strongest evidence.

ZAHN: It's a less cluttered case.

TOOBIN: It's a less cluttered case. The securities fraud was always a bizarre charge. Remember, the charge there was did Martha Stewart lie in order to prop up the stock of Martha Stewart Living. Very tangential to the heart of the case, which is did Martha Stewart lie to investigators about why she sold ImClone stock?

Very simple case now. Up or down decision. I think it will shorten jury deliberations. I don't know what they'll decide, but I think it will be simpler.

ZAHN: What are you looking for to happen next week?

COTLIAR: Monday and Tuesday we'll hear closing arguments from everybody involved, and then it will go to the jury on Wednesday.

ZAHN: Any predictions, Jeffrey?

TOOBIN: I don't do predictions.

ZAHN: Oh, yes.

TOOBIN: Because I'm always wrong when I do.

ZAHN: You're a former prosecutor.

TOOBIN: You know what? Going into this case, I thought it was weak. I really would have bet on an acquittal before I heard the evidence.

After hearing the evidence, this is a much stronger case than I anticipated. Bacanovic, in particular, has a lot of problems.

ZAHN: What should Martha be most worried about?

TOOBIN: Going to jail.

ZAHN: Besides that?

TOOBIN: I think she has to be worried that the accumulation of evidence -- she has no sort of smoking gun against her. But whether it's Douglas Faneuil or her assistant, Annie Armstrong or her friend Mariana Pasternak, the combination of circumstantial evidence is really her biggest problem.

ZAHN: Guess we'll see you same time, same place next week, you two.

COTLIAR: Thank you. Have a good weekend.

TOOBIN: I can't wait.

ZAHN: Now to part two of my exclusive interview with Secretary of State Colin Powell. Tonight, we'll talk about Saddam and Iraq. And the secretary of state also talks about his personal side, his life and his future.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ZAHN: Let's review some of what you said in your speech on February 5, 2003, before the general assembly in the run up to war, which has now proven to be false.

Let me read you part of that preamble. Quote, "My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts."

How difficult is it for you to deal with having said that?

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: The fact of the matter is, when I said that, it was backed up by the facts as the intelligence community knew them and believed in them. And so what I said on that day reflected the best judgment, not the cooked judgment, the best honest, well-sourced judgment of the intelligence community.

Intelligence work is not perfect. Sometimes you get it right. Sometimes you do make mistakes. Clearly there were some errors that were made.

What I think is clearly also the case, and what I think I put forward to the world on the 5th of February of 2003, was that Saddam Hussein and his regime had the intention to have nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, had used chemical weapons against its neighbors and its own people, had kept the capability to have such weapons, programs to develop such weapons, delivery means to deliver such weapons.

The only area that has become seriously in question, really, is why weren't there stockpiles there? I can't really answer that question so far. We're still looking. We're still examining documentation.

The fact of the matter is, President Clinton in his administration believed there were stockpiles there. All of our friends around the world who had intelligence capability believed it. The U.N. believed it, by passing resolution after resolution.

Dr. Kay, who was the, you know, the chief inspector on our side, he believed there were stockpiles there when he went in to look. He looked for eight months, couldn't find any, and said, "I don't think they're there." But he said we still did the right thing. This was a dangerous regime.

So even though we will get to the bottom of what was right and what was not right in my presentation. The fact of the matter is we were dealing with a dangerous regime that had the intention, the capability, the programs and the means to deliver weapons of mass destruction. We will get to the answer as to whether or not there were or were not stockpiles just before the time of the war.

But I have no questions in my mind that we did or did not do the right thing. We did the right thing. A terrible regime has been removed, and the American people should be proud of that.

ZAHN: You also said, quote, "It was the stockpiles that presented the final little piece that made it more of a real and present danger and threat to the region and to the world."

So are we to understand that without these stockpiles there was no clear and present danger from Iraq?

POWELL: No, I didn't say that. What I said was -- I didn't say what you -- the last part of your sentence. What I said was, if we had known at the time we were considering all this, that there were no stockpiles there, then we would have had to consider that.

I didn't think it was a particularly startling statement when I said it. Whenever people give me new information, my training as a soldier tells me how does that affect the conclusion I have come to? And that's all I was saying in that reference.

And so if we had known at the time we were going through the run up to the war, that there are no stockpiles, we would have taken that into account. Might we still have gone ahead? Perhaps. Would we have seen it as serious or present danger? Maybe, maybe not.

All I was saying was that reasonable people, when faced with new information, should put that into their calculation and think it through again.

ZAHN: But knowing what you know today about the lack of stockpiles in Iraq, would you have supported the prosecution of the war?

POWELL: See, I'm not sure that we know everything there is to know about the stockpiles in Iraq. That's why we have got hundreds of inspectors still over there.

Charlie Duelfer, who replaced Dr. Kay, is still over there. There are many, many documents that have to be gone through. There are many, many people who have to be interviewed, and there are many, many facilities that have yet to be looked at.

It is still a dangerous regime, with or without the stockpiles. Whether I would have come to the same conclusion or not, that was the question I was asked. And the answer was I don't know. Because I would have had to take the whole situation, once again, into account. And I think the president would have as well.

The fact of the matter is we did the right thing, and this regime is no longer a danger, whether it had stockpiles or not. It will never have stockpiles in the future.

ZAHN: Have any of your expectations coming into this job not been met? In terms of foreign policy and your imprint on it.

POWELL: Well, you can never get on top of every issue, but we've done one heck of a job. I mean, just in the past two weeks, we have brought into fruition two of the most important programs of foreign policy in the last 30 years.

One is the Millennium Challenge Account, where we will be upping the amount of money we make available to the needy nations of the world to a tune of $5 billion a year of additional money to those nations that believe in democracy, believe in the rule of law.

The second initiative is the HIV-AIDS program that the president chartered for the nation. Fifteen billion dollars in money to go after the greatest killer on the face of the earth right now.

I'm proud of those two programs. I'm proud of the fact that we have best relationship in China that we've had -- with China that we've had in 30 years, solid relationship with Russia. The two enemies that I knew for most of my military career are now solid partners and friends.

I'm pleased that we helped the Georgian people bring in a new president, who was here this week. I'm pleased that we're getting rid of weapons of mass destruction out of Libya. I'm pleased that we've got Iran starting to realize they'd better move in the right direction.

I'm pleased that we helped ECOWAS help liberate Liberia. And I was co-chair of the meeting last month that got $500 million in donations for Liberia.

I'm pleased at all the things that we're doing to strengthen our partnership and alliances around the world. I'm pleased that I've had the opportunity to do this as a senior foreign policy adviser to President George Bush.

And in the name of President Bush, I try to do everything I can to achieve foreign policy goals of the American people.

ZAHN: If President Bush is reelected, do you see yourself playing a role in a second administration?

POWELL: I always say I only serve at the pleasure of the president.

ZAHN: Does he like you?

POWELL: We're great buddies.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: A chain of unsolved murders, victim after victim across half a dozen states, most of them last seen at truck stops along a busy interstate. Is it the work of yet another serial killer?

And if you have to ask, you're probably not on the list. Only the world's wealthiest make it to the "Forbes" list of billionaires. Not only are they getting richer, we're going to tell you about surprising newcomers to the billionaire's club.

And will hobbits lord over the Academy Awards? Roger Ebert and Richard Roeper give us their predictions for Sunday's Academy Awards.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Some breaking news just in. California's highest court is refusing for now to shut down gay marriages in San Francisco.

The decision comes in response to requests by California's attorney general for an immediate injunction to block them.

Meanwhile, following the lead of San Francisco and Massachusetts, today about a dozen same sex couples were married in upstate New York.

Several states are trying to amend their constitutions to prevent gay couples from being wed. But is it too late to turn back now?

Joining us from Washington, that would be Rich Madaleno, a state legislator opposed to a proposed ban in Maryland. And from Atlanta tonight is Mike Crotts, a state senator who is leading the drive to ban same sex marriages in Georgia.

Welcome, gentlemen. Glad to see both of you.

MIKE CROTTS, GEORGIA STATE SENATOR: Nice to be here, Paula.

ZAHN: Mike, you have to confront the news that this is not only happening in big cities, but small towns, as well. Is this movement unstoppable?

CROTTS: No, I don't -- I don't think it's unstoppable.

Of course, the purpose of this legislation that I've introduced in Atlanta just in the last -- well, it was around the 21st of January, right after the president gave his State of the Union address.

The purpose of my legislation is to preserve the conservative base, faith-based values that we have -- has been the foundation of this nation for thousands of years.

And what we want to do is to insure that the voice of the people is louder than the voice of these tyrannous judges or activist judges, who believe that their opinion means more than the opinion of the people.

ZAHN: Rich, do you see that as the tyranny of the judges or the voice of the people wanting to be heard?

RICH MADALENO, STATE LEGISLATOR: Well, I think this is the voice of the people that want to be heard. And I think, to go back to your question, I think this is definitely unstoppable at this point.

And I don't believe it's unstoppable as in we will have same sex marriage around the country within a matter of weeks or months. But I think the drive towards providing same sex -- legal recognition to same sex couples is definitely unstoppable, because we deserve the same types of legal protections, guarantees, and obligations that all couples in this country have traditionally enjoyed.

ZAHN: But Rich, is this the right way to go about trying to create legislative change? MADALENO: Well, I mean, the ideal way to create legislative change, of course, is to go through the legislative process. And there are...

CROTTS: Absolutely.

MADALENO: There are positive bills that have been introduced all over the country.

What I fear about both the federal constitutional amendment and some of the state amendments that have been proposed, is it would even block legislative change.

It's fine if you say you want to stop some activist judges. And hey, as a legislator, I don't like judges making legislation any more than any other legislator.

But at the same time, I don't feel it's right to sit and block the chance for any group of people to come before any legislative body and seek to have recognition and or seek to have any legislation implemented.

ZAHN: Mike, what do you say to the local politicians who have performed these ceremonies even though some view it illegal?

CROTTS: Well, Paula, you know, this is the problem that I see.

You know, we're a nation of laws. And when we have people that are in the elected positions that are out there just defying the law in the face of the legislative process and saying that the law doesn't matter for me, this is exactly what's wrong in our country today.

We've got to stand on those laws and principles. The gentleman that I was speaking to this afternoon, he said, "We have the same rights as anyone else."

Well, yes, you do have the same rights under the current law. If you want to do something different, we don't compromise the law and set aside special rights for those people that would like to have the law changed. We have a legislative process to do that.

So there's nothing, as far as their rights being denied. They have the same rights that you and I do under the current law.

ZAHN: So, Rich, in the marriages that have been taking place so far, should they be recognized?

MADALENO: I mean, I think they should be afforded some sort of legal recognition in all the states. I don't know if we're necessarily ready anywhere to call them marriages, but I think it is time to provide those recognition and rights.

And to go back to what the senator just said about rights, what we're arguing here is that same sex couples don't have the same rights that married couples have. And we don't have the ability to visit a loved one in the hospital or to make a decision when they are incapable of making a decision, or inheriting property.

You can have same sex couples, and there have been wonderful same sex couples who have been married in San Francisco over the past few weeks who have been together 10, 20, 30 years. And they don't have the same rights that Britney Spears and her boyfriend had in a matter of seconds in Las Vegas.

And that, I believe, is not fair.

ZAHN: We've got to leave it there, gentlemen. Mike Crotts, Rich Madaleno, thank you both for your perspectives tonight.

MADALENO: Thank you.

CROTTS: Thank you. Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: And where does the U.S. stand in the search for Osama bin Laden? We're going to show you the methods being used to track down the world's most wanted killer.

And investigators look for some clues into the killings of seven women over the last several years. So many similarities in the murders and the method. Do the clues add up to an interstate killer?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The final report now in our series "Intelligence Under Fire in the War on Terror."

Yesterday, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld tried to cool recent reports that efforts to capture Osama bin Laden were gaining some momentum. On a visit to Afghanistan, he told reporters it will happen when it happens.

Just how the hunt for bin Laden is being carried out is our truth squad report tonight. Here's national correspondent Susan Candiotti.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAUL MOONEY, ART HISTORIAN: It's become a symbol of the Afghan Mujahideen.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Paul Mooney is not hunting for Osama bin Laden, but he is traveling in his wake. Mooney is an Arizona-based art historian, collecting artifacts from the war on terror.

MOONEY: This armband that we acquired belonged to Dr. Azim (ph).

CANDIOTTI: Mooney works contacts and sources to convince strangers in Afghanistan to get what he wants for a museum.

MOONEY: This is meant to demonstrate an explosion.

Everything in Afghanistan is done by who you know. Sometimes it can take a great deal of persuasion and sometimes just an appeal, just a blatant appeal to the people.

CANDIOTTI: In much the same way, U.S. intelligence assets -- and there are more of them on the ground -- are trying to track down Osama bin Laden along the Afghan-Pakistani border.

It's an art, not a science, says a former Pentagon regional intelligence chief, Colonel Pat Lang.

PAT LANG, INTELLIGENCE ANALYST, U.S. ARMY (RET.): There's a combination here of talent, experience, persistence, and luck. All of those things will enter into the equation here to determine whether or not you're ever going to find this guy.

ROBERT YOUNG PELTON, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: I mean, what you see in the physical manifestation of the hunt for bin Laden.

CANDIOTTI: Adventurer Robert Young Pelton, who is making a documentary about tracking bin Laden, worked his way to a sandbagged forward U.S. base along the border with Pakistan.

He describes seeing a combination of CIA, Delta, and Special Forces and paid Afghans.

PELTON: These people monitor the area. They do patrols. They work with local informants. They try to gather a sense of who's who in that area, what kind of traffic is happening.

CANDIOTTI: Part of their job, Lang says, is about establishing trust with potential informants.

LANG: After a while, they come to feel that the relationship with you and whatever material rewards you offer them at the same time is more important than the risk they're taking.

CANDIOTTI: Not an easy decision among tribal elements, who may be sheltering bin Laden.

PELTON: It's an interconnected web of marriage by cousin, friendships, ethnic connections.

CANDIOTTI: The kind of connections Paul Mooney uses to satisfy his objective.

MOONEY: Even the different training camps would have different flags that were associated with those camps.

CANDIOTTI: Looking in the presumed hiding place of Osama bin Laden for museum artifacts linked to the war on terror.

Susan Candiotti, CNN, Phoenix, Arizona.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Who's the richest of them all? There's that familiar face at the top of the Forbes list of the world's wealthiest people. But there is a new female billionaire among all those men. We'll find out who she is.

A tragic death raises questions about a religion and its practices. We're going to look at the mystery surrounding Santeria.

And for the leading Democratic candidates, it's the last weekend to compete for an avalanche of Super Tuesday delegates. We'll have a last minute update.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Here's what you need to know right now at the bottom of the hour.

This just in tonight. California's highest court is refusing to stop gay couples from getting married in San Francisco. The decision is in response to a petition by the state attorney general asking for an injunction to stop the marriages.

Also, are these some of the victims of a possible serial killer? Police from six states are looking into as many as ten murder cases, all women, all bearing striking similarities.

Most of the women were last seen at truck stops on Interstate 40 in Oklahoma, including this woman, seen on surveillance tape before she was murdered.

Joining us from Minneapolis is Pat Brown, a criminal profiler and author of "Killing for Sport: Inside the Minds of Serial Killers."

Always good to see you, Pat. Welcome.

PAT BROWN, AUTHOR, "KILLING FOR SPORT": Same to you, Paula.

ZAHN: Based on what you know about these cases, does it appear to you as though a serial killer is involved here?

BROWN: I have no question a serial killer is involved.

It's really an odd thing when you think about it. A woman is abducted. She's raped. She's thrown into a field naked, murdered. And we say this isn't a serial killer?

What kind of guy crosses that kind of line to do that kind of crime, if he isn't a psychopathic serial killer? It's just -- astonishes me that when the first woman is killed like this, they don't put out right away to the community that this is a suspected serial homicide, and we ought to look out for it.

ZAHN: Why don't you think law enforcement's doing that? Because they aren't 100 percent sure?

BROWN: Well, I think the bigger problem is a lot of pressure. When you start saying serial killer, people do perk up and say, wait a minute. There's a danger in our community. The media gets into it. The politics gets into it. Everybody wants this guy stopped. There's a lot of pressure on the police, and it's not a comfortable position to be in. But it really should be the position that law enforcement should be in because, if we do have a serial killer loose in the community, that person is obviously a danger to the citizens, and why are we not trying to stop him?

ZAHN: But the authorities say they are running out of leads.

BROWN: Well, I don't think they worked soon enough to get the leads. When they have somebody murdered five years ago and they ignore that, to a great extent, just worked on it quietly and didn't give information to the public. Then they have the second woman and the third woman and the fourth woman. This guy has been getting away with it for so long he's getting better and better and better. And you're not going to catch up with him if you let him have his way for so long.

ZAHN: So, what you're basically saying, is if this is true and there is a serial killer involved, you expect this to continue?

BROWN: Well, serial killers don't always continue, because there are a lot of things that can happen in their lives. They can become ill. They can get tired and bored of doing it. They may actually fear getting caught and stop.

But if the guy is out there killing women like this, do you want to leave him out there? And this is why I think we need to take serial homicide a little bit more seriously than we do. We ought to jump on it when we find this kind of horrendous crime and do something about it right away. Give as much information to the public right away. Warn them. Tell the public what you're looking for, what kind of guy, so that they can start looking, start paying attention, and maybe save a lot of lives. Don't wait until we have ten women. That's just far too many women to be murdered.

ZAHN: Pat Brown, thanks so much for joining us tonight.

BROWN: My pleasure.

ZAHN: On to some presidential politics now. Going into the final days of campaigning before super Tuesday, you may not vote for them, but they are aides and advisers that shape the politics of every candidate. Tonight we look at some of the people Democratic candidate John Edwards consults as he heads towards what may be his do or die day next week, super Tuesday. Jeanne Meserve reports

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH EDWARDS, WIFE OF JOHN EDWARDS: Dorothy lived in the midst of the great Kansas prairies. We haven't been to Kansas yet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): But Elizabeth Edwards has touched down in plenty of other states campaigning for her husband. And she has a more crucial role. E. EDWARDS: I do talk to John Edwards.

MESERVE: Elizabeth Edwards is active in discussions about absolutely everything, says one campaign official. She describes herself as a sounding board.

E. EDWARDS: I don't have an agenda separate from his, and he knows that absolutely. That confidence means that he can trust what I say completely.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS, (D-NC) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No one has to explain to me what the impact of trade has been. No one has to explain to me what it means when a factory closes.

MESERVE: But long before he announced his candidacy, Edwards was reaching out for the views and ideas of Clinton administration operatives, like Bruce Reed, former domestic policy adviser, and Gene Sperling, Clinton's national economic adviser.

GENE SPERLING, CLINTON ECONOMIC ADVISER: I think Senator Edwards reaches fairly far and wide in looking for his economic advice, both from Wall Street to union leaders.

MESERVE: Sperling counsels John Kerry as well as John Edwards, as do Sandy Berger, Clinton's national security adviser, and Richard Holbrook, former ambassador to the United Nations. On defense issues, Edwards also talks with General Hugh Shelton, former head of the joint chiefs of staff.

LEE HAMILTON, FMR. DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN: You have to reach out for expertise. I don't care how much expertise you have, issues change, the dynamics of issues change. The politics of an issue change. The personalities change.

MESERVE: One Edwards staffer says it is always easier to get advice from people who grew up where you did. So the Senator relies on some close associates from North Carolina and what's described as a small, tight family of staff.

(on camera): When news is breaking or a big speech pending, Edwards still seeks input from experts, but people close to Edwards insist the words and positions he voices are his own. Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: In this year's annual "Forbes" list of the world's wealthiest people, familiar faces. Microsoft chairman Bill Gates remains the world's wealthiest man for the tenth year in a row. But among the surprising new comers, one of only 53 female billionaires, who was once a single mom on welfare. Writer. Now you can see her. J.K. Rowling of Harry Potter fame.

The 18th annual list has a record number of billionaires on it this year. Forbes senior editor Peter Newcomb joins us now with a few more surprises about who made the cut. It's good to see you, welcome. PETER NEWCOMB, "FORBES": Thank you.

ZAHN: All right. So, we shouldn't be surprised by Bill Gates making this list.

NEWCOMB: It's getting pretty boring, isn't it? 10 years in a row.

ZAHN: Should we be worried about anybody creeping up behind him?

NEWCOMB: Warren Buffett is creeping up. He's only a couple of billion behind. The reason is that Warren has never sold a share of Berkshire Hathaway which now trades for about $95,000 a share.

ZAHN: So he can make up that deficit like that?

NEWCOMB: He can. He's right on his heels.

ZAHN: Let's talk about some of the 64 new billionaires who are on the list. Is there a big surprise among them?

NEWCOMB: I think the real surprise is J.K. Rowling, the author behind the Harry Potter series. This is a series that has sold 250 million copies around the world. The two movies have done 1.8 billion at the box office.

ZAHN: Good for her. To think it wasn't that long ago she was on welfare.

NEWCOMB: Videos is 500 million. You can buy Potter cologne and Potter lunch boxes and vomit flavored jelly beans. It's quite a racket.

ZAHN: They're not that bad.

Talk about some of the other women on the list. We know Oprah Winfrey was on it last year, she's on it this year. Who are some of the other women?

NEWCOMB: There's Doris Fisher of the Gap. She founded the Gap along with her husband many years ago. She's a billionaire a couple times over. We've got a wonderful Spanish heiress, 51 years old. Bombshell name Alicia Koplowitz.

ZAHN: Is she married?

NEWCOMB: She's single, and I recommend any male to go out there and chase her down.

ZAHN: There are a bunch of single male billionaires on the list as well.

NEWCOMB: There are.

ZAHN: And more of these billionaires found in the United States than any place else, and a lot of them found right here in New York. NEWCOMB: New York is home to more billionaires than ever. But Moscow is catching up. As the free enterprise takes hold slowly in Russia, we're finding new fortunes to be made out there.

ZAHN: It helps the women out there interested in the new male billionaires. Who are they here in the United States?

NEWCOMB: Paul Allen is worth 21 billion. Daniel Ziff is worth 1.1 billion, he's 32 years old. Donald trump, if you want. He's out there. He's got a girlfriend.

ZAHN: He's kind of ticked at you guys? He wanted to be higher up on the list than he is?

NEWCOMB: Donald feel's we're low by about half. We think he's worth about 2.5 billion. He tells me the real number is 5 billion.

ZAHN: Is he one of the few who likes being on this list? He does not find it invasive. Where some of these other people are pretty angry that they end up on the list?

NEWCOMB: People generally don't like this thing. Donald has a lot of fun with it as he has fun with a lot of things. So, he's happy to call me and just tell me he's dead wrong with his number. Happens every year.

ZAHN: Another thing I found very interesting, out of the 587 billionaires, which I can't even comprehend, 16 of them are high school dropouts. Any other similarities or common threads among these men and women?

NEWCOMB: We find that high school dropouts and college dropouts together are worth more on average than people with an Ivy League degree.

ZAHN: Don't let all these college or high school seniors hear that message. But it is interesting.

NEWCOMB: It's cute because Gates dropped out of school and, he's worth 46 billion. So, it does skew it a bit. These people are very driven. Their first borns for the most part, type A. They have an idea in high school and they want to drop out. You see an entrepreneurial streak, let them quit.

ZAHN: Peter Newcomb. Thank you. Really interesting to read.

NEWCOMB: Coming up, immigrants bring a mystical old religion to America. We'll look at Santa Rio, where it came from and the sometimes dangerous rituals used to rid followers of bad spirits.

And it's Hollywood's big weekend, could a film about a notorious female serial killer win an Oscar for Charlize Theron? I'll ask Ebert and Roeper for their Oscar predictions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHARLIZE THERON, ACTRESS: I'm trying to clean my life up here. You know, go straight and Christian and all. So, if there's anything you can think of...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: This week, a woman in New York died while performing a spiritual rite, accidentally setting herself on fire after putting an alcohol-based liquid all over her body. Police say the ritual is part of santeria, a religion cloaked in mystery that some say is nothing more than a cult. What exactly is it? We're going to give it the "High Five" treatment today, five quick questions, five direct answers. And for that, we turn to Washington and Michael Mason, ordained as a santerian priest, and author of "Living Santeria: Rituals and Experiences in the Afro-Cuban Religion."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: What exactly is santeria?

MICHAEL ATWOOD MASON, ORDAINED SANTERIAN PRIEST: Santeria is a religious tradition that emerged in Cuba. Its primary origins are in West Africa, with Yoruba-speaking peoples, but it also includes other religious traditions, from Europe and other parts of Africa.

ZAHN: How many people practice it in the United States?

MASON: It's very hard to get a firm fix on the numbers, but somewhere between 100,000 and a million people practice is in the United States.

ZAHN: Candles, herbs and coconuts are used in rituals. What's the significance of those?

MASON: Well, santeria really focuses on the interaction between God, God's representatives in nature, who are called aritias (ph), and spirits of the ancestors that have come before human beings who are alive now. All of the ceremonies revolve around using various kinds of objects to bring those spiritual presences into people's daily lives to transform the situations that they're in.

ZAHN: How are coconuts used?

MASON: Coconuts are often used as a way of interpreting the will of the deities. The idea is that after doing a ceremony, generally the coconuts are cast, and through specific number symbolism, it's possible to determine whether the deities are pleased or not with the ceremony that's happened.

And the goal is always, of course, to get to a place where a person has -- come into a state of harmony with the spiritual world.

ZAHN: And do believers turn to this religion for healing? MASON: That's very true. Santeria, unlike many other religions, is very focused on life here and now. And so people turn to the religion for all kinds of practical concerns, including healing.

ZAHN: A lot of people are having difficulty understanding this death of this woman in New York. What do you say to folks who believe when they hear you talk tonight, you're simply talking about a form of witchcraft?

MASON: I think, in this case, it's a way that people talk about the fact that they're afraid of something that they don't understand. In fact, this is a religion where, like most religions, people are enacting all kinds of -- they're undertaking all kinds of activities to get closer to the divine spark that they see in nature and in people.

ZAHN: And so what's the explanation for why this woman died?

MASON: Well, I can't really comment on this particular case because I don't have very many facts about what was going on. It sounds to me like it was a simple logistical problem, for lack of a better term. I mean, it sounds like a horrible tragedy, but one that has really nothing to do with the religion. It's just an unfortunate series of events.

ZAHN: Michael mason, thanks for bringing us up to date on what this is all about. Appreciate your time.

MASON: Thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And we spoke with several experts in the University of California's Religious Studies Department in Santa Barbara who say that while the santerian religion may embrace practices that lead some to consider it a cult, it is indeed a religion.

Rings and things at Sunday's Academy Awards. We'll get Ebert and Roeper's best guesses on who will walk away with the biggest little statue in Hollywood.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The theme from "Flashdance," winner of best song at the 1983 Oscars, helping us all get in the mood for Sunday's Academy Award ceremonies. Joining us now from Los Angeles to do a little Oscar handicapping right now, two of America's top film critics, Roger Ebert and Richard Roeper, hosts of "Ebert & Roeper." Nice to see you, all ready for the countdown here?

ROGER EBERT, FILM CRITIC: We're all set, Paula. And we hope it's as sunny on Sunday as it is right now.

ZAHN: We're a little jealous of that, I have to admit.

Let's start with the best actress category. I know, Roger, you'd like to see Charlize Theron take the statuette home. Do you think she'll win?

EBERT: I think it would be an enormous upset if anybody other than Charlize Theron wins as best actress. I think that her performance in "Monster" has really impressed so many people as one of the great performances of the century. I think she'll win.

RICHARD ROEPER, FILM CRITIC: Which century? The 21st or the other century?

EBERT: Both. Both.

ROEPER: Now, I would have to agree, Paula, with Roger on this one. Charlize Theron, I believe she should win, and I believe she will win. It's a great performance, and of course the Academy loves it when a beautiful actress puts on the weight and does the makeup. But it's a lot more than just tricks of weight gain and makeup. It's a performance that deserves the Academy Award. It's an amazing piece of work.

ZAHN: Let's talk about the best actor category now, Roger. I know you're rooting for Sean Penn. He has been controversial in the past. Might he take home the award this time around?

EBERT: You know, I'm sort of rooting for Sean Penn. If I had to mark my ballot, I would have had to wait a long time between Sean Penn and Bill Murray, because these two different performances are both so inspired. I'm predicting Bill Murray, but you know what? The Screen Actors Guild gave their award to Johnny Depp, and there are more actors in the Academy than any other voting group. So that might be a signal of an upset.

ZAHN: Richard, do you see that happening?

ROEPER: No. I see actually Bill Murray pulling off the upset. It is -- I think it is still a two-man race between Sean Penn and Bill Murray. And I think the feeling with the Academy is is that Sean Penn will get nominated many times again in the future. For Bill Murray, it's the role of a lifetime. He gave that great acceptance speech at the Golden Globes. So I'm calling Bill Murray in a slight upset to win best actor.

EBERT: So we're both predicting Murray then.

ROEPER: I guess we are.

ZAHN: Let's move to the best supporting actress. Who do you think might win, Roger?

EBERT: I think you're going to have a real upset in that category. And over the years, historically, if you look at supporting actress, you'll find that somebody surprising wins. Just remember the shot on Lauren Bacall's face the year that Marisa Tomei won. This year, I think Renee Zellweger is going to be upset by Shohreh Aghdashloo from "House of Sand and Fog."

ROEPER: Yes, that is -- I mean, she's a wonderful. I think she has a chance. I wasn't a huge fan of Renee Zellweger's performance in "Cold Mountain." I thought she was going up and down those hills saying, "give me my Oscar, and give it to me now." But I think it's a kind of performance that does win Academy awards. People like Renee a lot, she was nominated for "Chicago." She was nominated for "Chicago." She was nominated for "Bridget Jones Diary" in the best actress category. I think this is kind of an acknowledgement that she's one of the most popular young actresses in Hollywood. So I do think she's going to win for "Cold Mountain."

EBERT: Yes, but I think she's in the wrong movie this year.

ROEPER: She is in the wrong movie but she's going to get the right amount of votes.

EBERT: I think "Cold Mountain" really didn't compel voters the way it was supposed to.

ZAHN: That's an interesting point. Let's move on to best picture. Roger, what do you think is most likely candidate?

EBERT: "Lord of the Rings."

ROEPER: "Lord of the Rings: Return of the King" is the biggest favorite, I would say, since "Titanic" about seven or eight years ago. If it doesn't win, there will be a gasp in the auditorium, and people will be calling for recounts. It's not my favorite movie of the year, but it is a great epic. They're going to honor all three movies by giving this last trilogy, last effort in the trilogy the best picture award. I would love to see "Mystic River" or "Lost in Translation" win, but then again that would be a huge upset.

EBERT: I agree with both of those titles because I think that "Lord of the Rings" was such a gamble, such a bold and brave gamble by (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and New Line Cinema. They made the trilogy before any of it had been released. What a risk they took, and it's a very impressive movie, wonderfully well mounted. An epic that's going to be around for years. It's going to win an Oscar.

ZAHN: Have a great Oscar celebration. I'm sure your picks will match up with the winners. Roger, Richard, thank you very much.

EBERT: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Our series of "Real Stories Behind the Oscars" continues with "Lost in Translation." The first Oscar-nominated film directed by an American woman, who says some of it is right out of her own life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: More movie music. Last year's best song "Lose Yourself" by Eminem. We're going to wrap up our series of "Real Stories" tonight behind the Oscars with a look at "Lost in Translation." Sofia Coppola's nomination for best director is a first. No other American woman has ever done it before. And it's for a story Coppola has called semiautobiographical. And it's also a first for star Bill Murray, his first best actor nomination.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): Who doesn't love Bill Murray?

"Stripes," Caddyshack," Ghostbusters." Well, Sofia Coppola loved him so much, she actually stalked him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bill's coming. Bill's in Tokyo.

SOFIA COPPOLA, DIRECTOR, "LOST IN TRANSLATION": I always wanted to work with him. I definitely spent a good part of the year stalking Bill Murray.

ZAHN: Sofia Coppola, the woman with a Hollywood pedigree and Bill Murray, the legendary comedian who was so elusive Sofia didn't know until he showed up in Tokyo a week before shooting that he would actually star in the movie she wrote for him.

COPPOLA: It was just funny to see him in Japan because he was this big American out of context and playing this movie star character.

ZAHN: Murray plays a 50-year-old semi-washed up movie star shooting a commercial in Japan. Scarlett Johansson plays Charlotte, a 20-something woman hanging out in Tokyo while her husband is working. The two meet in their Tokyo hotel, each seemingless lost in a foreign city, lost in their lives.

COPPOLA: That idea that the two characters could find of help each other out, give advice and remind each other about aspects of themselves. I feel like the life crisis in your early 20s feels like the same kind of thing.

ZAHN: Something that Coppola also struggled with, the daughter of one of the world's most acclaimed directors, she was trying to find her way in her 20s after being pummeled for playing Mary Corleone in "Godfather III", Sofia experimented with many different careers. Photographer, fashion designer, spending some of that time like her characters, lost in Tokyo.

COPPOLA: I spent a bunch of time in Tokyo, my mid-twenties, going there for some work, things, and it's such a different experience than anything I had ever had and seen in this city, so I really wanted to do a story set in that world.

ZAHN: It was familiar ground to Coppola, who first passed through the city when she was 4 years old, traveling with her father to the Philippines to shoot "Apocalypse Now."

COPPOLA: You just feel so far away from your normal reality. And I think you do look at -- you're more reflective about your life in a different way. It kind of exaggerates any feelings of alienation, and you're kind of floating away from your real life.

ZAHN: Hollywood speculation is that the movie is an artistic reflection of her failed marriage to Spike Jonze, director of such films as "Being John Malkovic." And many think Charlotte's husband in the movie, played by Giovanni Ribisi, bears a strong resemblance to wildly creative and quirky Jonze. Also, there are moments in the movie that seem to echo a real troubled relationship.

BILL MURRAY, ACTOR: I would like to start eating like Japanese food.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why don't you stay there, and you can have it every day?

ELVIS MITCHELL, FILM CRITIC, "NEW YORK TIMES": There's a conversation that Bill Murray is having on the phone with his wife, and you get the sense of how oppressed he feels by this, and that part of this is he doesn't feel at home in his Tokyo hotel room, but obviously he doesn't feel at home when he's in his house either. He's happy to be away from there. That feels so incredibly real you wonder where that came from for both Coppola and for Bill Murray.

ZAHN: Coppola has called this film her little diary and has become known for keeping diaries and cameras everywhere like her father and mother did on the set of "Apocalypse Now."

Documenting everything as if anything in her life could be the next screenplay for this gifted young filmmaker.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: We wish her luck. Thanks for being with us tonight. We hope you all have a great weekend. Join us Monday for the last word going into the Super Tuesday primaries. Thanks for joining us tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. Good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Frankly About Iraq, Personal Life; States Racing for Same Sex Marriage Laws>


Aired February 27, 2004 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAUL ZAHN, HOST: I'm Paula Zahn. The world, the news, the names, the faces and where we go from here on this Friday, February 27, 2004.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): In focus tonight, a charge dismissed. Martha Stewart's judge tosses out the most serious count against her. Will the rest of the case fold up?

Also, part two of my exclusive interview with Colin Powell. Tonight, the secretary of state on the case he made for war and his future.

If President Bush is re-elected, do you see yourself playing a role in a second administration?

And the most money: the annual list of the world's richest people. Some familiar names and some surprising new faces.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: All that and more ahead. First, though, here are some headlines you need to know right now.

Anarchy. That is what the situation in Haiti is being called tonight. Rebels are advancing on Port-au-Prince, and CNN is reporting armed gangs are now patrolling the streets. People are being killed execution style.

The Associated Press is reporting that that FBI is reviewing part of the investigation in the Oklahoma City bombing. That has reopened the question of whether bomber Timothy McVeigh had more accomplices.

The A.P. says the FBI wants to find out why some documents related to the 1995 bombing never reached the agency.

A special prosecutor has been named to investigate accusations of sexual misconduct at the University of Colorado and its football team. Colorado State Attorney General Ken Salazar will lead the inquiry. There have been six allegations of rape against C.U. football players since 2000.

In focus tonight, the victory for Martha Stewart, at least an initial victory, heading into Monday's closing arguments. The judge today dismissed, that is, the most serious charge against her, securities fraud. Joining us now, senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and "People" magazine's Sharon Cotliar.

Welcome back.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.

ZAHN: Were you surprised?

TOOBIN: Yes, basically. I mean, I think it was a close call. The judge obviously was uncomfortable with this charge from the beginning. She called it novel in an initial discussion about it.

But I thought she would let the jury get the case, this charge. But she didn't, so one charge down, the only charge that came with a five -- a 10-year penalty, and four to go.

ZAHN: What else does she face?

TOOBIN: Conspiracy, two counts of making false statements, and obstruction of justice. Very serious charges, all felonies, all carrying five-year jail time. But you know, you've got to get rid of one at a time, and she's got one gone.

ZAHN: You spoke with members of Martha's camp after this ruling today. What was their reaction?

SHARON COTLIAR, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: They're very happy. They went out to lunch in Chinatown. They actually walked there from the courthouse. And people were cheering her, saying, "You go, girl!" And "Go, Martha."

And then they dined on Peking Duck and chicken dumplings.

So this was good news to them.

ZAHN: Any news on whether it met her standards? The meal?

COTLIAR: That I did not hear.

ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit more about how this jury -- decision might affect the jury. Was the jury aware that the judge was going to dismiss, or potentially dismiss, this other charge?

TOOBIN: Almost certainly not. They would have to remember the opening arguments in extreme detail to be able to compare it to this -- to what they hear in the jury instructions. I doubt it. So I don't think the jury will care.

In a funny way, I could see this helping the government. Because the government now can concentrate entirely on its strongest evidence.

ZAHN: It's a less cluttered case.

TOOBIN: It's a less cluttered case. The securities fraud was always a bizarre charge. Remember, the charge there was did Martha Stewart lie in order to prop up the stock of Martha Stewart Living. Very tangential to the heart of the case, which is did Martha Stewart lie to investigators about why she sold ImClone stock?

Very simple case now. Up or down decision. I think it will shorten jury deliberations. I don't know what they'll decide, but I think it will be simpler.

ZAHN: What are you looking for to happen next week?

COTLIAR: Monday and Tuesday we'll hear closing arguments from everybody involved, and then it will go to the jury on Wednesday.

ZAHN: Any predictions, Jeffrey?

TOOBIN: I don't do predictions.

ZAHN: Oh, yes.

TOOBIN: Because I'm always wrong when I do.

ZAHN: You're a former prosecutor.

TOOBIN: You know what? Going into this case, I thought it was weak. I really would have bet on an acquittal before I heard the evidence.

After hearing the evidence, this is a much stronger case than I anticipated. Bacanovic, in particular, has a lot of problems.

ZAHN: What should Martha be most worried about?

TOOBIN: Going to jail.

ZAHN: Besides that?

TOOBIN: I think she has to be worried that the accumulation of evidence -- she has no sort of smoking gun against her. But whether it's Douglas Faneuil or her assistant, Annie Armstrong or her friend Mariana Pasternak, the combination of circumstantial evidence is really her biggest problem.

ZAHN: Guess we'll see you same time, same place next week, you two.

COTLIAR: Thank you. Have a good weekend.

TOOBIN: I can't wait.

ZAHN: Now to part two of my exclusive interview with Secretary of State Colin Powell. Tonight, we'll talk about Saddam and Iraq. And the secretary of state also talks about his personal side, his life and his future.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ZAHN: Let's review some of what you said in your speech on February 5, 2003, before the general assembly in the run up to war, which has now proven to be false.

Let me read you part of that preamble. Quote, "My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts."

How difficult is it for you to deal with having said that?

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: The fact of the matter is, when I said that, it was backed up by the facts as the intelligence community knew them and believed in them. And so what I said on that day reflected the best judgment, not the cooked judgment, the best honest, well-sourced judgment of the intelligence community.

Intelligence work is not perfect. Sometimes you get it right. Sometimes you do make mistakes. Clearly there were some errors that were made.

What I think is clearly also the case, and what I think I put forward to the world on the 5th of February of 2003, was that Saddam Hussein and his regime had the intention to have nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, had used chemical weapons against its neighbors and its own people, had kept the capability to have such weapons, programs to develop such weapons, delivery means to deliver such weapons.

The only area that has become seriously in question, really, is why weren't there stockpiles there? I can't really answer that question so far. We're still looking. We're still examining documentation.

The fact of the matter is, President Clinton in his administration believed there were stockpiles there. All of our friends around the world who had intelligence capability believed it. The U.N. believed it, by passing resolution after resolution.

Dr. Kay, who was the, you know, the chief inspector on our side, he believed there were stockpiles there when he went in to look. He looked for eight months, couldn't find any, and said, "I don't think they're there." But he said we still did the right thing. This was a dangerous regime.

So even though we will get to the bottom of what was right and what was not right in my presentation. The fact of the matter is we were dealing with a dangerous regime that had the intention, the capability, the programs and the means to deliver weapons of mass destruction. We will get to the answer as to whether or not there were or were not stockpiles just before the time of the war.

But I have no questions in my mind that we did or did not do the right thing. We did the right thing. A terrible regime has been removed, and the American people should be proud of that.

ZAHN: You also said, quote, "It was the stockpiles that presented the final little piece that made it more of a real and present danger and threat to the region and to the world."

So are we to understand that without these stockpiles there was no clear and present danger from Iraq?

POWELL: No, I didn't say that. What I said was -- I didn't say what you -- the last part of your sentence. What I said was, if we had known at the time we were considering all this, that there were no stockpiles there, then we would have had to consider that.

I didn't think it was a particularly startling statement when I said it. Whenever people give me new information, my training as a soldier tells me how does that affect the conclusion I have come to? And that's all I was saying in that reference.

And so if we had known at the time we were going through the run up to the war, that there are no stockpiles, we would have taken that into account. Might we still have gone ahead? Perhaps. Would we have seen it as serious or present danger? Maybe, maybe not.

All I was saying was that reasonable people, when faced with new information, should put that into their calculation and think it through again.

ZAHN: But knowing what you know today about the lack of stockpiles in Iraq, would you have supported the prosecution of the war?

POWELL: See, I'm not sure that we know everything there is to know about the stockpiles in Iraq. That's why we have got hundreds of inspectors still over there.

Charlie Duelfer, who replaced Dr. Kay, is still over there. There are many, many documents that have to be gone through. There are many, many people who have to be interviewed, and there are many, many facilities that have yet to be looked at.

It is still a dangerous regime, with or without the stockpiles. Whether I would have come to the same conclusion or not, that was the question I was asked. And the answer was I don't know. Because I would have had to take the whole situation, once again, into account. And I think the president would have as well.

The fact of the matter is we did the right thing, and this regime is no longer a danger, whether it had stockpiles or not. It will never have stockpiles in the future.

ZAHN: Have any of your expectations coming into this job not been met? In terms of foreign policy and your imprint on it.

POWELL: Well, you can never get on top of every issue, but we've done one heck of a job. I mean, just in the past two weeks, we have brought into fruition two of the most important programs of foreign policy in the last 30 years.

One is the Millennium Challenge Account, where we will be upping the amount of money we make available to the needy nations of the world to a tune of $5 billion a year of additional money to those nations that believe in democracy, believe in the rule of law.

The second initiative is the HIV-AIDS program that the president chartered for the nation. Fifteen billion dollars in money to go after the greatest killer on the face of the earth right now.

I'm proud of those two programs. I'm proud of the fact that we have best relationship in China that we've had -- with China that we've had in 30 years, solid relationship with Russia. The two enemies that I knew for most of my military career are now solid partners and friends.

I'm pleased that we helped the Georgian people bring in a new president, who was here this week. I'm pleased that we're getting rid of weapons of mass destruction out of Libya. I'm pleased that we've got Iran starting to realize they'd better move in the right direction.

I'm pleased that we helped ECOWAS help liberate Liberia. And I was co-chair of the meeting last month that got $500 million in donations for Liberia.

I'm pleased at all the things that we're doing to strengthen our partnership and alliances around the world. I'm pleased that I've had the opportunity to do this as a senior foreign policy adviser to President George Bush.

And in the name of President Bush, I try to do everything I can to achieve foreign policy goals of the American people.

ZAHN: If President Bush is reelected, do you see yourself playing a role in a second administration?

POWELL: I always say I only serve at the pleasure of the president.

ZAHN: Does he like you?

POWELL: We're great buddies.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: A chain of unsolved murders, victim after victim across half a dozen states, most of them last seen at truck stops along a busy interstate. Is it the work of yet another serial killer?

And if you have to ask, you're probably not on the list. Only the world's wealthiest make it to the "Forbes" list of billionaires. Not only are they getting richer, we're going to tell you about surprising newcomers to the billionaire's club.

And will hobbits lord over the Academy Awards? Roger Ebert and Richard Roeper give us their predictions for Sunday's Academy Awards.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Some breaking news just in. California's highest court is refusing for now to shut down gay marriages in San Francisco.

The decision comes in response to requests by California's attorney general for an immediate injunction to block them.

Meanwhile, following the lead of San Francisco and Massachusetts, today about a dozen same sex couples were married in upstate New York.

Several states are trying to amend their constitutions to prevent gay couples from being wed. But is it too late to turn back now?

Joining us from Washington, that would be Rich Madaleno, a state legislator opposed to a proposed ban in Maryland. And from Atlanta tonight is Mike Crotts, a state senator who is leading the drive to ban same sex marriages in Georgia.

Welcome, gentlemen. Glad to see both of you.

MIKE CROTTS, GEORGIA STATE SENATOR: Nice to be here, Paula.

ZAHN: Mike, you have to confront the news that this is not only happening in big cities, but small towns, as well. Is this movement unstoppable?

CROTTS: No, I don't -- I don't think it's unstoppable.

Of course, the purpose of this legislation that I've introduced in Atlanta just in the last -- well, it was around the 21st of January, right after the president gave his State of the Union address.

The purpose of my legislation is to preserve the conservative base, faith-based values that we have -- has been the foundation of this nation for thousands of years.

And what we want to do is to insure that the voice of the people is louder than the voice of these tyrannous judges or activist judges, who believe that their opinion means more than the opinion of the people.

ZAHN: Rich, do you see that as the tyranny of the judges or the voice of the people wanting to be heard?

RICH MADALENO, STATE LEGISLATOR: Well, I think this is the voice of the people that want to be heard. And I think, to go back to your question, I think this is definitely unstoppable at this point.

And I don't believe it's unstoppable as in we will have same sex marriage around the country within a matter of weeks or months. But I think the drive towards providing same sex -- legal recognition to same sex couples is definitely unstoppable, because we deserve the same types of legal protections, guarantees, and obligations that all couples in this country have traditionally enjoyed.

ZAHN: But Rich, is this the right way to go about trying to create legislative change? MADALENO: Well, I mean, the ideal way to create legislative change, of course, is to go through the legislative process. And there are...

CROTTS: Absolutely.

MADALENO: There are positive bills that have been introduced all over the country.

What I fear about both the federal constitutional amendment and some of the state amendments that have been proposed, is it would even block legislative change.

It's fine if you say you want to stop some activist judges. And hey, as a legislator, I don't like judges making legislation any more than any other legislator.

But at the same time, I don't feel it's right to sit and block the chance for any group of people to come before any legislative body and seek to have recognition and or seek to have any legislation implemented.

ZAHN: Mike, what do you say to the local politicians who have performed these ceremonies even though some view it illegal?

CROTTS: Well, Paula, you know, this is the problem that I see.

You know, we're a nation of laws. And when we have people that are in the elected positions that are out there just defying the law in the face of the legislative process and saying that the law doesn't matter for me, this is exactly what's wrong in our country today.

We've got to stand on those laws and principles. The gentleman that I was speaking to this afternoon, he said, "We have the same rights as anyone else."

Well, yes, you do have the same rights under the current law. If you want to do something different, we don't compromise the law and set aside special rights for those people that would like to have the law changed. We have a legislative process to do that.

So there's nothing, as far as their rights being denied. They have the same rights that you and I do under the current law.

ZAHN: So, Rich, in the marriages that have been taking place so far, should they be recognized?

MADALENO: I mean, I think they should be afforded some sort of legal recognition in all the states. I don't know if we're necessarily ready anywhere to call them marriages, but I think it is time to provide those recognition and rights.

And to go back to what the senator just said about rights, what we're arguing here is that same sex couples don't have the same rights that married couples have. And we don't have the ability to visit a loved one in the hospital or to make a decision when they are incapable of making a decision, or inheriting property.

You can have same sex couples, and there have been wonderful same sex couples who have been married in San Francisco over the past few weeks who have been together 10, 20, 30 years. And they don't have the same rights that Britney Spears and her boyfriend had in a matter of seconds in Las Vegas.

And that, I believe, is not fair.

ZAHN: We've got to leave it there, gentlemen. Mike Crotts, Rich Madaleno, thank you both for your perspectives tonight.

MADALENO: Thank you.

CROTTS: Thank you. Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: And where does the U.S. stand in the search for Osama bin Laden? We're going to show you the methods being used to track down the world's most wanted killer.

And investigators look for some clues into the killings of seven women over the last several years. So many similarities in the murders and the method. Do the clues add up to an interstate killer?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The final report now in our series "Intelligence Under Fire in the War on Terror."

Yesterday, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld tried to cool recent reports that efforts to capture Osama bin Laden were gaining some momentum. On a visit to Afghanistan, he told reporters it will happen when it happens.

Just how the hunt for bin Laden is being carried out is our truth squad report tonight. Here's national correspondent Susan Candiotti.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAUL MOONEY, ART HISTORIAN: It's become a symbol of the Afghan Mujahideen.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Paul Mooney is not hunting for Osama bin Laden, but he is traveling in his wake. Mooney is an Arizona-based art historian, collecting artifacts from the war on terror.

MOONEY: This armband that we acquired belonged to Dr. Azim (ph).

CANDIOTTI: Mooney works contacts and sources to convince strangers in Afghanistan to get what he wants for a museum.

MOONEY: This is meant to demonstrate an explosion.

Everything in Afghanistan is done by who you know. Sometimes it can take a great deal of persuasion and sometimes just an appeal, just a blatant appeal to the people.

CANDIOTTI: In much the same way, U.S. intelligence assets -- and there are more of them on the ground -- are trying to track down Osama bin Laden along the Afghan-Pakistani border.

It's an art, not a science, says a former Pentagon regional intelligence chief, Colonel Pat Lang.

PAT LANG, INTELLIGENCE ANALYST, U.S. ARMY (RET.): There's a combination here of talent, experience, persistence, and luck. All of those things will enter into the equation here to determine whether or not you're ever going to find this guy.

ROBERT YOUNG PELTON, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: I mean, what you see in the physical manifestation of the hunt for bin Laden.

CANDIOTTI: Adventurer Robert Young Pelton, who is making a documentary about tracking bin Laden, worked his way to a sandbagged forward U.S. base along the border with Pakistan.

He describes seeing a combination of CIA, Delta, and Special Forces and paid Afghans.

PELTON: These people monitor the area. They do patrols. They work with local informants. They try to gather a sense of who's who in that area, what kind of traffic is happening.

CANDIOTTI: Part of their job, Lang says, is about establishing trust with potential informants.

LANG: After a while, they come to feel that the relationship with you and whatever material rewards you offer them at the same time is more important than the risk they're taking.

CANDIOTTI: Not an easy decision among tribal elements, who may be sheltering bin Laden.

PELTON: It's an interconnected web of marriage by cousin, friendships, ethnic connections.

CANDIOTTI: The kind of connections Paul Mooney uses to satisfy his objective.

MOONEY: Even the different training camps would have different flags that were associated with those camps.

CANDIOTTI: Looking in the presumed hiding place of Osama bin Laden for museum artifacts linked to the war on terror.

Susan Candiotti, CNN, Phoenix, Arizona.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Who's the richest of them all? There's that familiar face at the top of the Forbes list of the world's wealthiest people. But there is a new female billionaire among all those men. We'll find out who she is.

A tragic death raises questions about a religion and its practices. We're going to look at the mystery surrounding Santeria.

And for the leading Democratic candidates, it's the last weekend to compete for an avalanche of Super Tuesday delegates. We'll have a last minute update.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Here's what you need to know right now at the bottom of the hour.

This just in tonight. California's highest court is refusing to stop gay couples from getting married in San Francisco. The decision is in response to a petition by the state attorney general asking for an injunction to stop the marriages.

Also, are these some of the victims of a possible serial killer? Police from six states are looking into as many as ten murder cases, all women, all bearing striking similarities.

Most of the women were last seen at truck stops on Interstate 40 in Oklahoma, including this woman, seen on surveillance tape before she was murdered.

Joining us from Minneapolis is Pat Brown, a criminal profiler and author of "Killing for Sport: Inside the Minds of Serial Killers."

Always good to see you, Pat. Welcome.

PAT BROWN, AUTHOR, "KILLING FOR SPORT": Same to you, Paula.

ZAHN: Based on what you know about these cases, does it appear to you as though a serial killer is involved here?

BROWN: I have no question a serial killer is involved.

It's really an odd thing when you think about it. A woman is abducted. She's raped. She's thrown into a field naked, murdered. And we say this isn't a serial killer?

What kind of guy crosses that kind of line to do that kind of crime, if he isn't a psychopathic serial killer? It's just -- astonishes me that when the first woman is killed like this, they don't put out right away to the community that this is a suspected serial homicide, and we ought to look out for it.

ZAHN: Why don't you think law enforcement's doing that? Because they aren't 100 percent sure?

BROWN: Well, I think the bigger problem is a lot of pressure. When you start saying serial killer, people do perk up and say, wait a minute. There's a danger in our community. The media gets into it. The politics gets into it. Everybody wants this guy stopped. There's a lot of pressure on the police, and it's not a comfortable position to be in. But it really should be the position that law enforcement should be in because, if we do have a serial killer loose in the community, that person is obviously a danger to the citizens, and why are we not trying to stop him?

ZAHN: But the authorities say they are running out of leads.

BROWN: Well, I don't think they worked soon enough to get the leads. When they have somebody murdered five years ago and they ignore that, to a great extent, just worked on it quietly and didn't give information to the public. Then they have the second woman and the third woman and the fourth woman. This guy has been getting away with it for so long he's getting better and better and better. And you're not going to catch up with him if you let him have his way for so long.

ZAHN: So, what you're basically saying, is if this is true and there is a serial killer involved, you expect this to continue?

BROWN: Well, serial killers don't always continue, because there are a lot of things that can happen in their lives. They can become ill. They can get tired and bored of doing it. They may actually fear getting caught and stop.

But if the guy is out there killing women like this, do you want to leave him out there? And this is why I think we need to take serial homicide a little bit more seriously than we do. We ought to jump on it when we find this kind of horrendous crime and do something about it right away. Give as much information to the public right away. Warn them. Tell the public what you're looking for, what kind of guy, so that they can start looking, start paying attention, and maybe save a lot of lives. Don't wait until we have ten women. That's just far too many women to be murdered.

ZAHN: Pat Brown, thanks so much for joining us tonight.

BROWN: My pleasure.

ZAHN: On to some presidential politics now. Going into the final days of campaigning before super Tuesday, you may not vote for them, but they are aides and advisers that shape the politics of every candidate. Tonight we look at some of the people Democratic candidate John Edwards consults as he heads towards what may be his do or die day next week, super Tuesday. Jeanne Meserve reports

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH EDWARDS, WIFE OF JOHN EDWARDS: Dorothy lived in the midst of the great Kansas prairies. We haven't been to Kansas yet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): But Elizabeth Edwards has touched down in plenty of other states campaigning for her husband. And she has a more crucial role. E. EDWARDS: I do talk to John Edwards.

MESERVE: Elizabeth Edwards is active in discussions about absolutely everything, says one campaign official. She describes herself as a sounding board.

E. EDWARDS: I don't have an agenda separate from his, and he knows that absolutely. That confidence means that he can trust what I say completely.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS, (D-NC) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No one has to explain to me what the impact of trade has been. No one has to explain to me what it means when a factory closes.

MESERVE: But long before he announced his candidacy, Edwards was reaching out for the views and ideas of Clinton administration operatives, like Bruce Reed, former domestic policy adviser, and Gene Sperling, Clinton's national economic adviser.

GENE SPERLING, CLINTON ECONOMIC ADVISER: I think Senator Edwards reaches fairly far and wide in looking for his economic advice, both from Wall Street to union leaders.

MESERVE: Sperling counsels John Kerry as well as John Edwards, as do Sandy Berger, Clinton's national security adviser, and Richard Holbrook, former ambassador to the United Nations. On defense issues, Edwards also talks with General Hugh Shelton, former head of the joint chiefs of staff.

LEE HAMILTON, FMR. DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN: You have to reach out for expertise. I don't care how much expertise you have, issues change, the dynamics of issues change. The politics of an issue change. The personalities change.

MESERVE: One Edwards staffer says it is always easier to get advice from people who grew up where you did. So the Senator relies on some close associates from North Carolina and what's described as a small, tight family of staff.

(on camera): When news is breaking or a big speech pending, Edwards still seeks input from experts, but people close to Edwards insist the words and positions he voices are his own. Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: In this year's annual "Forbes" list of the world's wealthiest people, familiar faces. Microsoft chairman Bill Gates remains the world's wealthiest man for the tenth year in a row. But among the surprising new comers, one of only 53 female billionaires, who was once a single mom on welfare. Writer. Now you can see her. J.K. Rowling of Harry Potter fame.

The 18th annual list has a record number of billionaires on it this year. Forbes senior editor Peter Newcomb joins us now with a few more surprises about who made the cut. It's good to see you, welcome. PETER NEWCOMB, "FORBES": Thank you.

ZAHN: All right. So, we shouldn't be surprised by Bill Gates making this list.

NEWCOMB: It's getting pretty boring, isn't it? 10 years in a row.

ZAHN: Should we be worried about anybody creeping up behind him?

NEWCOMB: Warren Buffett is creeping up. He's only a couple of billion behind. The reason is that Warren has never sold a share of Berkshire Hathaway which now trades for about $95,000 a share.

ZAHN: So he can make up that deficit like that?

NEWCOMB: He can. He's right on his heels.

ZAHN: Let's talk about some of the 64 new billionaires who are on the list. Is there a big surprise among them?

NEWCOMB: I think the real surprise is J.K. Rowling, the author behind the Harry Potter series. This is a series that has sold 250 million copies around the world. The two movies have done 1.8 billion at the box office.

ZAHN: Good for her. To think it wasn't that long ago she was on welfare.

NEWCOMB: Videos is 500 million. You can buy Potter cologne and Potter lunch boxes and vomit flavored jelly beans. It's quite a racket.

ZAHN: They're not that bad.

Talk about some of the other women on the list. We know Oprah Winfrey was on it last year, she's on it this year. Who are some of the other women?

NEWCOMB: There's Doris Fisher of the Gap. She founded the Gap along with her husband many years ago. She's a billionaire a couple times over. We've got a wonderful Spanish heiress, 51 years old. Bombshell name Alicia Koplowitz.

ZAHN: Is she married?

NEWCOMB: She's single, and I recommend any male to go out there and chase her down.

ZAHN: There are a bunch of single male billionaires on the list as well.

NEWCOMB: There are.

ZAHN: And more of these billionaires found in the United States than any place else, and a lot of them found right here in New York. NEWCOMB: New York is home to more billionaires than ever. But Moscow is catching up. As the free enterprise takes hold slowly in Russia, we're finding new fortunes to be made out there.

ZAHN: It helps the women out there interested in the new male billionaires. Who are they here in the United States?

NEWCOMB: Paul Allen is worth 21 billion. Daniel Ziff is worth 1.1 billion, he's 32 years old. Donald trump, if you want. He's out there. He's got a girlfriend.

ZAHN: He's kind of ticked at you guys? He wanted to be higher up on the list than he is?

NEWCOMB: Donald feel's we're low by about half. We think he's worth about 2.5 billion. He tells me the real number is 5 billion.

ZAHN: Is he one of the few who likes being on this list? He does not find it invasive. Where some of these other people are pretty angry that they end up on the list?

NEWCOMB: People generally don't like this thing. Donald has a lot of fun with it as he has fun with a lot of things. So, he's happy to call me and just tell me he's dead wrong with his number. Happens every year.

ZAHN: Another thing I found very interesting, out of the 587 billionaires, which I can't even comprehend, 16 of them are high school dropouts. Any other similarities or common threads among these men and women?

NEWCOMB: We find that high school dropouts and college dropouts together are worth more on average than people with an Ivy League degree.

ZAHN: Don't let all these college or high school seniors hear that message. But it is interesting.

NEWCOMB: It's cute because Gates dropped out of school and, he's worth 46 billion. So, it does skew it a bit. These people are very driven. Their first borns for the most part, type A. They have an idea in high school and they want to drop out. You see an entrepreneurial streak, let them quit.

ZAHN: Peter Newcomb. Thank you. Really interesting to read.

NEWCOMB: Coming up, immigrants bring a mystical old religion to America. We'll look at Santa Rio, where it came from and the sometimes dangerous rituals used to rid followers of bad spirits.

And it's Hollywood's big weekend, could a film about a notorious female serial killer win an Oscar for Charlize Theron? I'll ask Ebert and Roeper for their Oscar predictions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHARLIZE THERON, ACTRESS: I'm trying to clean my life up here. You know, go straight and Christian and all. So, if there's anything you can think of...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: This week, a woman in New York died while performing a spiritual rite, accidentally setting herself on fire after putting an alcohol-based liquid all over her body. Police say the ritual is part of santeria, a religion cloaked in mystery that some say is nothing more than a cult. What exactly is it? We're going to give it the "High Five" treatment today, five quick questions, five direct answers. And for that, we turn to Washington and Michael Mason, ordained as a santerian priest, and author of "Living Santeria: Rituals and Experiences in the Afro-Cuban Religion."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: What exactly is santeria?

MICHAEL ATWOOD MASON, ORDAINED SANTERIAN PRIEST: Santeria is a religious tradition that emerged in Cuba. Its primary origins are in West Africa, with Yoruba-speaking peoples, but it also includes other religious traditions, from Europe and other parts of Africa.

ZAHN: How many people practice it in the United States?

MASON: It's very hard to get a firm fix on the numbers, but somewhere between 100,000 and a million people practice is in the United States.

ZAHN: Candles, herbs and coconuts are used in rituals. What's the significance of those?

MASON: Well, santeria really focuses on the interaction between God, God's representatives in nature, who are called aritias (ph), and spirits of the ancestors that have come before human beings who are alive now. All of the ceremonies revolve around using various kinds of objects to bring those spiritual presences into people's daily lives to transform the situations that they're in.

ZAHN: How are coconuts used?

MASON: Coconuts are often used as a way of interpreting the will of the deities. The idea is that after doing a ceremony, generally the coconuts are cast, and through specific number symbolism, it's possible to determine whether the deities are pleased or not with the ceremony that's happened.

And the goal is always, of course, to get to a place where a person has -- come into a state of harmony with the spiritual world.

ZAHN: And do believers turn to this religion for healing? MASON: That's very true. Santeria, unlike many other religions, is very focused on life here and now. And so people turn to the religion for all kinds of practical concerns, including healing.

ZAHN: A lot of people are having difficulty understanding this death of this woman in New York. What do you say to folks who believe when they hear you talk tonight, you're simply talking about a form of witchcraft?

MASON: I think, in this case, it's a way that people talk about the fact that they're afraid of something that they don't understand. In fact, this is a religion where, like most religions, people are enacting all kinds of -- they're undertaking all kinds of activities to get closer to the divine spark that they see in nature and in people.

ZAHN: And so what's the explanation for why this woman died?

MASON: Well, I can't really comment on this particular case because I don't have very many facts about what was going on. It sounds to me like it was a simple logistical problem, for lack of a better term. I mean, it sounds like a horrible tragedy, but one that has really nothing to do with the religion. It's just an unfortunate series of events.

ZAHN: Michael mason, thanks for bringing us up to date on what this is all about. Appreciate your time.

MASON: Thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And we spoke with several experts in the University of California's Religious Studies Department in Santa Barbara who say that while the santerian religion may embrace practices that lead some to consider it a cult, it is indeed a religion.

Rings and things at Sunday's Academy Awards. We'll get Ebert and Roeper's best guesses on who will walk away with the biggest little statue in Hollywood.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The theme from "Flashdance," winner of best song at the 1983 Oscars, helping us all get in the mood for Sunday's Academy Award ceremonies. Joining us now from Los Angeles to do a little Oscar handicapping right now, two of America's top film critics, Roger Ebert and Richard Roeper, hosts of "Ebert & Roeper." Nice to see you, all ready for the countdown here?

ROGER EBERT, FILM CRITIC: We're all set, Paula. And we hope it's as sunny on Sunday as it is right now.

ZAHN: We're a little jealous of that, I have to admit.

Let's start with the best actress category. I know, Roger, you'd like to see Charlize Theron take the statuette home. Do you think she'll win?

EBERT: I think it would be an enormous upset if anybody other than Charlize Theron wins as best actress. I think that her performance in "Monster" has really impressed so many people as one of the great performances of the century. I think she'll win.

RICHARD ROEPER, FILM CRITIC: Which century? The 21st or the other century?

EBERT: Both. Both.

ROEPER: Now, I would have to agree, Paula, with Roger on this one. Charlize Theron, I believe she should win, and I believe she will win. It's a great performance, and of course the Academy loves it when a beautiful actress puts on the weight and does the makeup. But it's a lot more than just tricks of weight gain and makeup. It's a performance that deserves the Academy Award. It's an amazing piece of work.

ZAHN: Let's talk about the best actor category now, Roger. I know you're rooting for Sean Penn. He has been controversial in the past. Might he take home the award this time around?

EBERT: You know, I'm sort of rooting for Sean Penn. If I had to mark my ballot, I would have had to wait a long time between Sean Penn and Bill Murray, because these two different performances are both so inspired. I'm predicting Bill Murray, but you know what? The Screen Actors Guild gave their award to Johnny Depp, and there are more actors in the Academy than any other voting group. So that might be a signal of an upset.

ZAHN: Richard, do you see that happening?

ROEPER: No. I see actually Bill Murray pulling off the upset. It is -- I think it is still a two-man race between Sean Penn and Bill Murray. And I think the feeling with the Academy is is that Sean Penn will get nominated many times again in the future. For Bill Murray, it's the role of a lifetime. He gave that great acceptance speech at the Golden Globes. So I'm calling Bill Murray in a slight upset to win best actor.

EBERT: So we're both predicting Murray then.

ROEPER: I guess we are.

ZAHN: Let's move to the best supporting actress. Who do you think might win, Roger?

EBERT: I think you're going to have a real upset in that category. And over the years, historically, if you look at supporting actress, you'll find that somebody surprising wins. Just remember the shot on Lauren Bacall's face the year that Marisa Tomei won. This year, I think Renee Zellweger is going to be upset by Shohreh Aghdashloo from "House of Sand and Fog."

ROEPER: Yes, that is -- I mean, she's a wonderful. I think she has a chance. I wasn't a huge fan of Renee Zellweger's performance in "Cold Mountain." I thought she was going up and down those hills saying, "give me my Oscar, and give it to me now." But I think it's a kind of performance that does win Academy awards. People like Renee a lot, she was nominated for "Chicago." She was nominated for "Chicago." She was nominated for "Bridget Jones Diary" in the best actress category. I think this is kind of an acknowledgement that she's one of the most popular young actresses in Hollywood. So I do think she's going to win for "Cold Mountain."

EBERT: Yes, but I think she's in the wrong movie this year.

ROEPER: She is in the wrong movie but she's going to get the right amount of votes.

EBERT: I think "Cold Mountain" really didn't compel voters the way it was supposed to.

ZAHN: That's an interesting point. Let's move on to best picture. Roger, what do you think is most likely candidate?

EBERT: "Lord of the Rings."

ROEPER: "Lord of the Rings: Return of the King" is the biggest favorite, I would say, since "Titanic" about seven or eight years ago. If it doesn't win, there will be a gasp in the auditorium, and people will be calling for recounts. It's not my favorite movie of the year, but it is a great epic. They're going to honor all three movies by giving this last trilogy, last effort in the trilogy the best picture award. I would love to see "Mystic River" or "Lost in Translation" win, but then again that would be a huge upset.

EBERT: I agree with both of those titles because I think that "Lord of the Rings" was such a gamble, such a bold and brave gamble by (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and New Line Cinema. They made the trilogy before any of it had been released. What a risk they took, and it's a very impressive movie, wonderfully well mounted. An epic that's going to be around for years. It's going to win an Oscar.

ZAHN: Have a great Oscar celebration. I'm sure your picks will match up with the winners. Roger, Richard, thank you very much.

EBERT: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Our series of "Real Stories Behind the Oscars" continues with "Lost in Translation." The first Oscar-nominated film directed by an American woman, who says some of it is right out of her own life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: More movie music. Last year's best song "Lose Yourself" by Eminem. We're going to wrap up our series of "Real Stories" tonight behind the Oscars with a look at "Lost in Translation." Sofia Coppola's nomination for best director is a first. No other American woman has ever done it before. And it's for a story Coppola has called semiautobiographical. And it's also a first for star Bill Murray, his first best actor nomination.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): Who doesn't love Bill Murray?

"Stripes," Caddyshack," Ghostbusters." Well, Sofia Coppola loved him so much, she actually stalked him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bill's coming. Bill's in Tokyo.

SOFIA COPPOLA, DIRECTOR, "LOST IN TRANSLATION": I always wanted to work with him. I definitely spent a good part of the year stalking Bill Murray.

ZAHN: Sofia Coppola, the woman with a Hollywood pedigree and Bill Murray, the legendary comedian who was so elusive Sofia didn't know until he showed up in Tokyo a week before shooting that he would actually star in the movie she wrote for him.

COPPOLA: It was just funny to see him in Japan because he was this big American out of context and playing this movie star character.

ZAHN: Murray plays a 50-year-old semi-washed up movie star shooting a commercial in Japan. Scarlett Johansson plays Charlotte, a 20-something woman hanging out in Tokyo while her husband is working. The two meet in their Tokyo hotel, each seemingless lost in a foreign city, lost in their lives.

COPPOLA: That idea that the two characters could find of help each other out, give advice and remind each other about aspects of themselves. I feel like the life crisis in your early 20s feels like the same kind of thing.

ZAHN: Something that Coppola also struggled with, the daughter of one of the world's most acclaimed directors, she was trying to find her way in her 20s after being pummeled for playing Mary Corleone in "Godfather III", Sofia experimented with many different careers. Photographer, fashion designer, spending some of that time like her characters, lost in Tokyo.

COPPOLA: I spent a bunch of time in Tokyo, my mid-twenties, going there for some work, things, and it's such a different experience than anything I had ever had and seen in this city, so I really wanted to do a story set in that world.

ZAHN: It was familiar ground to Coppola, who first passed through the city when she was 4 years old, traveling with her father to the Philippines to shoot "Apocalypse Now."

COPPOLA: You just feel so far away from your normal reality. And I think you do look at -- you're more reflective about your life in a different way. It kind of exaggerates any feelings of alienation, and you're kind of floating away from your real life.

ZAHN: Hollywood speculation is that the movie is an artistic reflection of her failed marriage to Spike Jonze, director of such films as "Being John Malkovic." And many think Charlotte's husband in the movie, played by Giovanni Ribisi, bears a strong resemblance to wildly creative and quirky Jonze. Also, there are moments in the movie that seem to echo a real troubled relationship.

BILL MURRAY, ACTOR: I would like to start eating like Japanese food.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why don't you stay there, and you can have it every day?

ELVIS MITCHELL, FILM CRITIC, "NEW YORK TIMES": There's a conversation that Bill Murray is having on the phone with his wife, and you get the sense of how oppressed he feels by this, and that part of this is he doesn't feel at home in his Tokyo hotel room, but obviously he doesn't feel at home when he's in his house either. He's happy to be away from there. That feels so incredibly real you wonder where that came from for both Coppola and for Bill Murray.

ZAHN: Coppola has called this film her little diary and has become known for keeping diaries and cameras everywhere like her father and mother did on the set of "Apocalypse Now."

Documenting everything as if anything in her life could be the next screenplay for this gifted young filmmaker.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: We wish her luck. Thanks for being with us tonight. We hope you all have a great weekend. Join us Monday for the last word going into the Super Tuesday primaries. Thanks for joining us tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. Good night.

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