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Paula Zahn Now
Are Americans Supersized?; Closing Arguments Begin in Martha Stewart Trial
Aired March 01, 2004 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Welcome to a brand new week here. I'm Paula Zahn.
The world, the news, the names, the faces, and where we go from here on this Monday, March 1, 2004.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN (voice-over): "In Focus" tonight: The prosecution prepares its last shots at Martha Stewart, as closing arguments begin in the domestic diva's trial.
Also, the first head-to-toe survey of Americans in 60 years confirms our bodies have gone supersized.
And glitter and glamour, the good, the bad, the ugly at the Academy Awards.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: All that ahead tonight, plus, our Super Tuesday preview and new information about the new offensive in the hunt for Osama bin Laden.
First, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.
Former Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide says he is a victim of a coup d'etat by the United States. In a CNN interview, he said he was told to leave Haiti to avoid bloodshed. Earlier today, Secretary of State Colin Powell denied claims that Aristide had been kidnapped. More on Haiti still ahead tonight.
Presidential hopefuls John Kerry and John Edwards are on their last campaign swing before the primaries in 10 different states, more than 1,100 delegates up for grabs. Edwards says he will stay in the race no matter what happens tomorrow.
And the Supreme Court won't question the federal government's right to freeze the assets of charity groups believed to sponsor terrorism. Today the high court rejected an appeal by a Muslim charity that was shut down after 9/11. The group is accused of sponsoring the Islamic fundamentalist group Hamas.
"In "focus" tonight, closing arguments in the Martha Stewart case. Prosecutor Michael Schachter today tried to paint Martha Stewart as a liar who thought she'd never get caught. Well, the case could go to the jury on Wednesday.
Joining us now, senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, criminal defense attorney Jayne Weintraub.
Welcome, both.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: You were in court today?
TOOBIN: I sure was.
ZAHN: Closing arguments, what were the highlights?
TOOBIN: Boy, Michael Schachter did such a good job of pulling together all of the disparate evidence that came in various sometimes unpredictable ways, facts -- I sat there in court the whole trial -- things that I completely missed.
Let me give you one example that he pointed out. Everybody who's following the case knows that the defense here is that Martha Stewart had an agreement to sell when the price of ImClone hit 60. That's why she says she sold the stock.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Well, what Michael Schachter pointed out is that, when Peter Bacanovic, the stockbroker, called Martha Stewart to sell the stock, at that precise moment, on 10:04, December 27, the stock was at 61.52. Why, if she had an agreement to sell at 60, would he be calling at that time?
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Just a difficult question for the prosecution to answer. The summation by Peter Bacanovic Bacanovic's lawyer, Rich Strassberg, began today. No answer to that and no answer to a lot in the government's summation.
MATTHEWS: And, Jayne, Robert Morvillo, Ms. Stewart's attorney, said that he will tell the court it was his fault that Martha Stewart didn't end up testifying. Is that a strategy that makes sense to you?
WEINTRAUB: Well, Paula, it's not that it's his fault. He's not taking blame. He's accepting responsibility for being the great lawyer that he is and giving his client the advice not to testify.
You know, when the government's case is weak, there's no reason to put her up and subject her to cross-examination of all sorts of things that might come into evidence that otherwise wouldn't. But, Paula, it's the client's decision. And Martha Stewart is a very smart client. She's educated. And she appreciates the consequences of the courtroom proceedings and what's going on. I'm sure it was Bob Morvillo's advice. Because he's a great lawyer. I'm sure she took it.
ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit more about Peter Bacanovic, who you touched on a little bit earlier this evening.
TOOBIN: Peter Bacanovic's troubles have troubles at this point.
ZAHN: Well, let's talk about his troubles have troubles. How badly compromised is he?
TOOBIN: Well, his lawyer, among other things, has used up virtually all his time, and all he has talked about the entire two- plus hours that he has talked is about how Douglas Faneuil, his former assistant, is a liar and a terrible guy and shouldn't be believed.
There is a lot of other stuff in this case, which it looks like he's not even going to have time to deal with, much less effective rebuttals for.
ZAHN: Jayne, I want to quickly move on to the Kobe Bryant case. And let's talk about the potential use of the alleged victim's sexual history. Is that fair game?
WEINTRAUB: Well, I think, in this particular case, based on these unique circumstances, it is fair game. And the reason why, Paula, is very simple.
We know that Kobe had sex with someone and we know that she had sex with someone else within the past 24 hours of this allegation. We also know that the defense is consensual sex. We have been told that there is vaginal tearing. If two people were in the cookie jar, how can you tell which one ate the last cookie? You can't. You have to be able to show a jury the entire picture, the entire cookie jar, and who was in there to know what was going on.
I think, in this particular case, it's not a matter of morality, which is why we have a rape shield law. It is a matter of credibility. And in this particular case, the accuser's credibility has been tarnished from the beginning, from the fact of her medical records and committing -- you know, the attempts to commit suicide over boyfriends, but not really going there. Twice, she did that to get his attention and admits it.
So I don't really know where we're going, but I think that, in order to give him a fair trial -- he's presumed innocent. She's an accuser who came in willingly to this proceeding. I think that the jurors need to see it, and I'm sure the judge will make that decision.
ZAHN: By watching your face, Jeffrey, you didn't look like you were too crazy about the cookie jar analogy here.
TOOBIN: That's not the metaphor I would choose at all.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Choose what you think is a more appropriate -- and what lengths the defense will go to, to chip away at the rape shield law?
TOOBIN: Well, I think the issue here is, he's trying to prove that the evidence points to another person. And that is very different from the purpose of the rape shield law.
The purpose of the rape shield law is to avoid public humiliation of rape victims that they might have a propensity to have sex with men. That's out. But, in this case, he is claiming that the evidence points to another person having sex with her. And I think that is a legitimate thing for the defense to look into. And just, out of basic fairness, I think they have a right to look into it.
And the judge today ordered some of the undergarments that the accuser was wearing turned over to the defense, so that they can do their own testing, which strikes me as a fair decision.
ZAHN: All right, Jeffrey Toobin, Jayne Weintraub, thank you for both of your perspectives tonight.
WEINTRAUB: Thank you, Paula.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: The focus on al Qaeda, the focus on UBL has been the same as it's been for a long time now, for many years, several years. And that is, if we can find him and Zawahiri and the other leadership, we're going to go after him. And that is as intense today as it was a month ago, as it was during Operation Iraqi Freedom, and it remains that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Well, despite General Myers' assurance, it's been nearly 2 1/2 years since the U.S. declared Osama bin Laden and the Taliban as the enemies behind the 9/11 attacks. Afghanistan's Taliban government is gone, but capturing the elusive bin Laden is another story.
And as winter breaks in Afghanistan, there is a major drive to snare bin Laden. That's the "TIME" magazine cover story this week headlined "Afghanistan: The Other War."
"TIME"'s Washington bureau chief, Michael Duffy, joins us now.
Always good to see you, Michael.
MICHAEL DUFFY, "TIME": Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: Tell me a little bit about what your reporters have learned who have been on the ground in Afghanistan?
DUFFY: Well, the country remains still a very fractured place.
It's run by a series of up to 20 warlords. And while President Karzai does maintain control of Kabul, this is a still country that's still finding its way as in the post-Taliban environment. We've also discovered that the U.S. is about to mount a pretty serious offensive here this spring to actually find bin Laden once and for all.
ZAHN: And why is it that government officials believe this hunt might be more successful than others in the past?
DUFFY: A couple things.
First of all, they seem to be doing this one in coordination with Pakistan. Osama bin Laden is presumed to be somewhere in the border area, probably on the Pakistan side of the border. They want the Pakistanis to push up from the east. And they're going to have the American forces, which they're going to reinforce, push from the west, and hopefully in a classic pincer movement, catch him in the bargain.
They've also sent back some special forces troops who they had moved over to Iraq a little more than a year ago. And they've now begun to redeploy back to Afghanistan. And, finally, they're just generally reinforcing the area in the border lands. And that they think will find him, though they're not saying that yet.
ZAHN: As you know, Michael, there is some cynicism in some quarters about this, I guess what you would call reenergized hunt for bin Laden and how it relates to the general election cycle. Does it?
DUFFY: There's a lot of cynicism about this whole thing.
Not a day goes by that I'm not asked by someone, Paula, whether we haven't already captured him and are just holding him. And that level of sort of presumed cynicism I think has got the administration very much on notice. And they recognize, if they're going to find Osama, it would be best, as Lady Macbeth said, that it would be done quickly. The later they wait into the year, the more they're going to have questions about why they waited closer to the election.
So I think the U.S. is on the right track to try to do this fast. They would do it fast, I think, anyway. But they recognize that there's a high level of doubt about the timing of a capture, if it comes. And so I think they've leaked a fair amount to different news organizations about this offensive. They sort of signaled that it's going to be happening. So they're trying to show some transparency about it.
ZAHN: But the other problem the administration has, of course, is the Taliban regaining some strength. How big of a concern is that?
DUFFY: That's the second reason they're having this offensive across a wide swathe of territory, from about Jalalabad, all the way down to Kandahar, right along the border.
The Taliban is resurgent. And, in some parts of the country, about a third of it, they are actually in nominal control. And U.S. officials will admit this privately. And so one of the things they want to do as they push west from the line from Kandahar to Kabul, they want to actually try to sweep some of those elements out and break up those groups and kill as many of them as they can.
They recognize some will fall back into Pakistan, but they hope that, if everybody comes together in that pincer movement, they'll not only wipe out the resurgent Taliban, but maybe find the tall guy.
ZAHN: Well, President Karzai is certainly making his thoughts known, when he says -- quote -- "If the U.S. military pulls out, al Qaeda would be back within months plotting attacks against America."
DUFFY: Yes, U.S. officials who have gone to the region and returned recently say that there's a definite change on the street in the country. You can tell people are a little more wary now of Americans. That indicates to them that there are more Taliban operating covertly around the country.
Karzai is almost a prisoner in the presidential palace. He essentially admits that, if the Americans left today, he wouldn't last very long. And, as you know, Karzai is really only president because he was one of the only guys who didn't have an Army. All the other warlords have one, and he represented someone who was kind of a safe choice to all the warlords. So it's still pretty precarious.
The U.S. keeps saying that it wants to have elections in Afghanistan. It's not clear there's a real timetable that's realistic for those. We talk a lot about elections in Southwest Asia these days.
ZAHN: Oh, absolutely, deadlines that may or may not hold.
DUFFY: May or may not.
ZAHN: "TIME" magazine's Washington bureau chief, Michael Duffy, it's always good to see you. Thanks.
The former president of Haiti says the U.S. ousted him in a coup, also calling it a kidnapping. We're going to hear from him as Haitians celebrate his exile. The battle rages on over gay marriage. Both sides are asking black Christians for their support. We'll hear from one black clergyman who says, if the Ku Klux Klan opposed gay marriage, he'd ride along with them.
Plus, Americans just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. We're going to look at the results of the first detailed snapshot in 60 years of Americans' measurements from head to toe.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: United States Marines are now manning positions at the presidential palace in Haiti's capital. That is just one sign of the end of the line for president Jean-Bertrand Aristide. He is now in exile in the Central African Republic, while Haitians celebrate his departure.
Lucia Newman reports from Port-au-Prince.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Haiti, scenes from the past. A decade after coming in to restore President Jean- Bertrand Aristide, the Marines are back to try and restore order without him. And then this, the triumphant entrance into the capital of rebels led by leaders of Haiti's disbanded Army.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today is liberation day for Haiti.
NEWMAN: It was a victory celebration, thousands embracing the return of Guy Philippe, the former police chief who came back from exile to force Aristide from power.
(on camera): If there was ever a demonstration of how quickly political passions can sway, it's this one. Some of the very same people who until recently were vowing to fight for the death for President Aristide are now welcoming back his arch enemies.
(voice-over): At the general police headquarters, people hugged the deputy rebel chief, a notorious former paramilitary leader, sentenced in absentia to life in prison for mass murder.
"Whatever the bad things from the past, 99 percent of the people here support us," said Louis Jodel Jamblane (ph).
Across the street, nervous U.S. Marines stood guard at the front door of the presidential palace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The U.S. forces are here to secure key sites in the Haitian capital around Port-au-Prince for the purpose of contributing to a more secure and stable environment and to help promote the constitutional, political process.
NEWMAN: Next to the morgue, hearses lined up to take away bodies of more than a dozen people murdered overnight, many of them executed.
"We blame President Bush for allowing all of this to happen. Getting rid of Aristide is not the solution," said this man, who told us supporters of the former president are terrified, a well-founded fear in a country where calls for peace and reconciliation have so often been silenced by guns.
Lucia Newman, CNN, Port-au-Prince.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And earlier tonight, in a CNN interview, President Aristide said he was the victim of a coup by the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN-BERTRAND ARISTIDE, FORMER HAITIAN PRESIDENT: They told me in a clear and blunt way that thousands of people will get killed once they start, so I have to do my best to avoid the bloodshed. They used force to push me out. That's why I call it again and again a coup d'etat, the modern way to have modern kidnapping.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: For reaction from Washington, we turn to national security correspondent David Ensor.
Colin Powell didn't like what he heard, did he?
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: He did not, and nor did the other officials we've been speaking to in this building today, Paula. They just say that is an absolute falsehood, that is not what happened, that Jean-Bertrand Aristide left under his volition. Here's how the secretary put it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Allegations that somehow we kidnapped former President Aristide are absolutely baseless, absurd. And it's rather unfortunate that, in this sensitive time, when we're trying to stabilize the situation in Haiti and when we're sending in a multinational interim force to help bring about that stability, and we're trying to put a political process on track, I think it's very unfortunate that these kind of absurd charges are leveled at us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: They're angry about the charges and also rather annoyed about the heavy coverage that they've gotten since that may endanger soldiers on the ground in Port-au-Prince, officials say, if some Haitians believe that the U.S. kidnapped Aristide, which it most certainly did not, officials say.
And, in fact, some sources have given us access to copies of the letter that Aristide signed when he left. This is in Creole. But in translation, it says, part of it says -- quote -- "I am resigning in order to avoid a bloodbath." So, again, sources are showing us a signed letter from Aristide that he planned to leave of his own volition.
Now, critics of the administration, like Senator Dodd of Connecticut, are saying, yes, I don't believe he was kidnapped, but I do believe he was forced out because the U.S. said they would not protect him. The administration says that that's quite true. We warned him we would not protect him. He needed to make a political deal with his opposition, if it could be done. If it could not be done, we were not going to spend American blood in order to save President Aristide -- Paula.
ZAHN: But if Mr. Aristide signed this letter that you have a copy of in your hand, how can he make the claim he was kidnapped?
ENSOR: Well, indeed.
And one official here this evening said that, frankly, in the past, President Aristide has made comments which are erratic, unusual, to be polite, and they just think he's not all accurate, shall we say.
ZAHN: Well, that's, I guess, a generous way, from their viewpoint, of stating that.
David Ensor, thank you so much for that report.
Coming up later tonight, a breakthrough in the disappearance of a Mississippi family. A suspect is charged with the triple murder. It may have been a family feud over money.
And we're going to move on to president politics. It's down to the wire for the Democrats in the biggest primary dale of all. Some of the biggest cities vote on Super Tuesday. We're going to look at who has the best chance of energizing the nation's cities.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: More than half of all the delegates needed to become the Democratic nominee are at stake tomorrow on Super Tuesday. And the primaries also include a rich mix of minority voters in some of the largest cities, like New York, L.A., Baltimore, and Atlanta.
Let's get a primary preview now. Joining us from Atlanta, Georgia Congressman John Lewis, who has endorsed John Kerry, our regulars, in Los Angeles, "TIME" magazine columnist Joe Klein, and, in Phoenix tonight, former Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke.
Good to see all of you.
VICTORIA CLARKE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: So, Joe, I'm going to start with you this evening. If everything goes as planned, does John Kerry effectively clinch the nomination?
JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I don't know how it's planned. We have to have an election tomorrow. If Kerry wins most of these states, then he's in a pretty strong position. But, you know, as always, Paula, I'm patient. I want to see the people vote.
ZAHN: Congressman, let's bring you into the picture now. We saw some real tension yesterday between Senator John Kerry and Senator John Edwards. What did that signify to you?
REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: I think this is a natural tension between two people that, one must win and one will not necessarily lose, but you can only have one nominee.
ZAHN: So, Torie, does that mean much to you in terms of any potential personality conflict down the road?
VICTORIA CLARKE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Every campaign cycle, we see candidates during the primary just beating the you know what out of each other and saying terrible things, but then they kiss and make up.
Look at what Wesley Clark was saying about John Kerry right before he got out of the race and 24 hours later, there they were hugging one another. So I think it's pretty much is politics as usual.
KLEIN: By historical standards, this is not hardball. This is like badminton. These guys really haven't gone at each other at all.
And if you look back, in 1960, Lyndon Johnson was spreading the rumor that John Kennedy had Hodgkin's disease. And Kennedy put him on the ticket.
LEWIS: You know what is happening, I think, between the two leading candidates, but also among Democratic voters, people want to win. They want to win more than anything.
ZAHN: Congressman, we're going to put up on the screen now something that a think tank has found when it comes to the African American vote. And they have determined that the turnout was better and has been up 10 to 20 percent higher than it was back in the year 1992, the last time the Democrats had a contested primary. Do you think that will translate into a higher voter turnout on Election Day?
LEWIS: Oh, I think it's a clear indication that you're going to have a greater turnout among black voters. People have not recovered from what happened in Florida in 2000.
And there's the sense that we must never, ever forget what happened in Florida. And people tend to see the present administration out of touch, out of sync with the feeling of the great majority of African-Americans. And I think African-Americans are going to turn out and vote like we never, ever voted before.
ZAHN: Is that something that concerns this White House, Torie?
CLARKE: Well, the White House is taking -- the president and the campaign are taking this election very, very seriously. They're not going to take anything for granted. They're not going to take any state for granted. They're going to go after every single vote, including African-Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Finally tonight, Joe, the White House stepping up its attacks on John Kerry, branding him as a Massachusetts liberal, how much traction will those attacks have?
KLEIN: Well, I think that the most important point here is this. There are some presidential elections that kind of skim along the surface of American life. Others are very close to the bone. This election is going to be a close-to-the-bone election.
If we're lucky this year, we're going to have an actual argument about real -- about things that really matter, and that's not always the case in presidential politics.
ZAHN: All right, team, got to leave it there tonight. Congressman John Lewis, thanks for your time, Joe Klein, Victoria Clarke, yours as well.
CLARKE: Thanks, Paula.
ZAHN: The black church in America was the bedrock and the conscience of the civil rights movement. Now both sides in the gay marriage debate want it to choose sides. Is gay marriage a civil right? We'll have a debate. And the average American has gotten bigger and rounder and not always in the right places. Yes, we are pears, folks. We're going to tell you about the first detailed study of the American physique in 50 years.
And you may not remember past Oscar winners, but what about those outrageous Oscar fashions of the past? How do the women stack up this year? Everything from the strapless to the speechless at the Oscars.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Here are some of the headlines you need to know right now. This just in to CNN, Kobe Bryant's accuser will not be in court tomorrow. But the hearing will go on as scheduled. Bryant has not seen his accuser since last June 30. That was the day of the alleged rape. In court today, his defense argued the woman engaged in multiple acts of intercourse just before meeting Bryant.
Coast Guard has suspended the search for 18 crew members of a tanker that exploded and sank off the Virginia coast on Saturday. At least three other crewmen were killed, six of them rescued. The Coast Guard says the explosion was accidental, but the exact cause is being investigated.
And a new study says anti-bacterial soap may not be protecting you from common health ailments. Researchers at Columbia University say the soap doesn't reduce the symptoms of viral infections such as those associated with the common cold. The study's author says consumers may not realize it fights bacteria but not viruses.
Meanwhile, those fighting for gay marriage like to compare it to the battle of African-Americans waged 40 years ago and they're hoping for support from black Christians but it may be an uphill battle. Is it fair to debate gay marriage and civil rights? We're going to debate that tonight as two black clergymen face off against each other. Joining us now, the Reverend Gregory Daniels, pastor of United Voters for Truth and Change in Chicago and Elder Claude Bowen, a retired pastor of Unity of Riverside Church in Los Angeles. Good to see both of you. Welcome.
Reverend Daniels, I would love to start with you this evening. You oppose gay marriage, and yet you were quoted as saying this, we are going to put on the screen, quote, "if the KKK opposes gay marriage I would ride with them. How could you align yourself with the KKK?"
REV. GREGORY DANIELS, PASTOR, UNITED VOTERS FOR TRUTH AND CHANGE: Well, it was a statement that certainly has dogged me for a little while since we made that statement, but it was about the strength of the stance against this issue. And I wanted it to be brought out to the front, and sometimes you have to sensationalize your comments in reference to your feelings on a certain issue. And certainly, we know that the KKK is one of the most negative organizations in this country and racist, but certainly if they were opposing gay marriage, yes, I did say that I would ride with them.
ZAHN: When you heard that, Elder Bowen, what went through your mind?
ELDER CLAUDE BOWEN, RET. PASTOR, UNITY OF RIVERSIDE CHURCH: I was furious, but then I felt very, very sad that a member of the African American people would align themselves with someone. I thought I was -- OK. And I just can't imagine a person, a clergy person that teaches that God is love and love is for everyone will align themselves with someone that publicly hates another group of people that God created.
ZAHN: All right. Let's come back to the more narrow issue of the debate, Elder Bowen. Is denying people the right to marry a violation of their civil rights?
BOWEN: Yes, it is. It denies a person that works in this country and is taxed like everyone else equal rights. That denial is wrong.
ZAHN: And, Reverend Daniels, do you equate the struggle of those folks who want to get married and have their marriages sanctioned with the struggle for any improvement in civil rights back in the '50s?
DANIELS: Well, absolutely not. This is not a civil rights issue. This is a special interest, a sexual orientation issue that should not be in the forefront of government. Spending money on a bedroom issue, to me, is not a civil rights issue. We have many states who have embraced this and are giving medical coverage for homosexual mates. We are not drinking hateorade (ph) for the gays. We are not homophobic. And certainly, as a Christian, we do love everybody, even the KKK.
They are human beings, just like the homosexuals. But because they have lots of money, lots of influence, highly educated, they're able to put this issue in our face every day and the perpetuity of stupidity continues from Hollywood, from Federal Communications Commission who allow these people to keep this issue in our face. We watched San Francisco marriages go on and on. Children are watching the news. Young people are being influenced by this. And that's who is at stake most in this situation. Our children.
ZAHN: Elder Bowen, do you think that Reverend Daniels and the folks who are opposed to gay marriage are homophobic?
BOWEN: Of course they're homophobic. And the real issue is that any time anyone takes any law that legislates love, eliminates and excludes another group of people they are wrong. That is not what God placed us on this earth for. We were here to love each other, to support each other, and we are all equal under God's law and human law.
ZAHN: All right. Let's go back to Reverend Daniels. He says he doesn't believe you when you say you're not homophobic.
BOWEN: Well, he can believe what he wants to believe. I know what homophobic means, and I am not homophobic. I do business with homosexual people. I interact with them on a daily basis in some of my business affairs. No, we're not homophobic. We don't bash them. We're not hating them. What we're saying to the elder is that, if he wants to quote God or he wants to invoke God, then he should read Romans 1 and 18 through 32, and the 18th chapter of Leviticus.
ZAHN: Elder Bowen, you get the last word tonight.
BOWEN: Levitical law is a human law. God is love. Love is for everyone. If you deny me the right that other human beings have, what else do you call it but homophobic? Homophobic is just another form or another word for hate.
ZAHN: Gentlemen, we have to leave it there. Reverend Gregory Daniels, Elder Claude Bowen. Thank you so much for being with us.
And it's not as if we didn't expect this, but an intensive scientific survey shows Americans have put on some pounds in the last few generations. The 21st century is looking potbellied and pear shaped.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Breaking news tonight in the mysterious disappearance of a family in Mississippi. Authorities tell CNN three bodies have been found believed to be those of a man, his wife, and their 4-year-old son. For more, we're joined by William Strain, spokesman for the Mississippi Department of Public Safety.
He's joining us from where the charges were read today. Sir, you're with us, thanks so much for being with us. I guess this is the news that everybody feared.
How disappointed were you that this is how this ended up?
WARREN STRAIN, MISSISSIPPI HIGHWAY PATROL: Well, late this afternoon, our worst fears were confirmed. With what appeared to be two male bodies and then also what appeared to be the body of a child. They were recovered from a wooded area in a rural area of Covington County, Mississippi. The bodies have been turned over to the coroner and now will be processed through the normal forensic science testing that goes in this type of situation. The bodies will undergo an autopsy, and the other forensic testing through the state pathologist.
ZAHN: Are you able at this hour to determine the cause of death of the victims?
STRAIN: I'm sorry. We're having technical difficulties here, so I can't hear anything.
ZAHN: Mr. Strain, I'll try one more time.
Can you hear me now?
OK. We've lost Mr. Strain. But once again, he is a spokesman for the Mississippi Department of Public Safety. Confirming the terrible news that three members of one family have been discovered in a field. We don't know exactly what led to the discovery. There was speculation today that upon some pretty serious questioning of a suspect in the case, that there was information led to the breaking of this.
Let's turn to Mayor Ron Walker of Taylorsville, Mississippi, who also joins us. Suspect Ernest Lee Hargon is from his town.
Thank you very much for joining us, sir. First of all, your reaction to this news.
RON WALKER, MAYOR OF TAYLORSVILLE: We are totally devastated. Our entire town is. We have been following this case since it began on the 14th, and we're just really shocked at the developments today.
ZAHN: Mayor, we're going to go back to Mr. Strain one more time because I think we've reestablished our connection with him.
Mr. Strain, if, you would, describe what ultimately led your investigators to these bodies after an intensive search.
STRAIN: The Mississippi Bureau of Investigations developed information overnight and early this morning that led to a wooded area in Covington County, Mississippi, not too far from where we were searching over the weekend and relatively close proximity to the home of Ernest Lee Hargon, who was charged this afternoon with three counts of capital murder. We found the bodies of two adults and what appears to be the body of a child.
ZAHN: Are you able to determine at this hour the cause of their deaths?
STRAIN: At this point, no. The forensic testing will be going on through the evening to determine the exact cause of death and manner of death, also, the identity of the individual or the bodies that were recovered this afternoon.
ZAHN: I know that you had some pretty intense questioning of the suspect, Ernest Lee Hargon.
Did he ultimately provide information that led to these bodies?
STRAIN: Information that was developed during the course of the investigation by the Mississippi Bureau of Investigations led to not only the charges that were filed this afternoon of capital murder against Ernest Lee Hargon, but also the recovery of these three bodies that could very well prove to be the Hargon family.
ZAHN: What is the most compelling evidence that led you to charge earnest Hargon with the murder of his cousin and other family members?
STRAIN: Well, at this point, to get into the specifics of the case would be premature.
ZAHN: Although some family members of his have suggested that the motive had something to do with money and the disposition of a piece of property.
Is that true? STRAIN: At this point, to get into motive and any other test results we have or any other components of the investigation, we'd prefer not to comment. We'll reserve comment.
ZAHN: Mr. Strain, if you mind standing by, we're going to go back to Mayor Walker to talk a little bit more about the reaction of the local community there.
I know you said there was shock and great sadness about this news.
What else are people talking about there?
WALKER: Well, we're just trying to offer our assistance, mainly, in any way we possibly can. We've been on hand throughout the entire weekend. And trying to make some sense of all this, Paula. It's very shocking for a small town our size to have to deal with a crime of this magnitude.
ZAHN: Now, Mr. Mayor, you've actually met the suspect, and you're familiar with his wife, aren't you, and have known her since high school.
WALKER: Absolutely. Yes. Dr. Lisa Ainsworth is his wife. She's the local veterinarian. I've known her and her family all her life. They're well respected people in the community. And our hearts go out to her as well, and her family. I did know the suspect.
ZAHN: Please carry on, sir.
WALKER: I also have a small cattle farm, and Lisa, of course, is my veterinarian, and Ernest would come to assist her with treatment of animals from time to time. And that was my only opportunity to visit much with him. He was always cordial, very relaxed, a nice guy. And he did most of the manual labor with the large an animals, and she, of course, did the medical treatment of those animals.
ZAHN: What can you tell us about where she is tonight?
A number of reports have suggested she's in seclusion and not doing too well.
WALKER: I attempted to contact her this morning at her parents just to wish her well and was not able to locate her. She is, obviously, distraught and is at an undisclosed location. I spoke to two employees in her veterinary clinic and assured me they would pass along the good wishes that we're trying to extend to her. But we could not contact her today.
ZAHN: Mayor Ron Walker, thank you so much for being with us. We also want to thanks very much to Warren Strain, who is the spokesman for the Mississippi Department of Public Safety. Thank you, gentlemen.
And just a quick reminder of for those of you who might be joining us, Mr. Strain confirming for us that three members of that family who have been missing are now confirmed dead this evening. The cause of death has not yet been determined. The case goes on as charges were filed this afternoon in the case. The investigation goes on as charges were filed late this afternoon in a case a man named Ernest Lee Hargon was charged with capital murder in the deaths of Michael Hargon, his wife Rebecca, and their 4-year-old son. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: The first head-to-toe survey of American body size since World War II shows the average American has indeed super sized. The survey sponsored in part by the clothing industry and the military measured necks and thighs, and tummies and tushes, and found some pretty startling differences. Humorist Andy Borowitz joins us tonight to help us get to the bottom of all this. How are you tonight?
ANDY BOROWITZ, HUMORIST: I'm good, I'm good.
ZAHN: So I guess we're pretty messed up, because what we think we are we're not.
BOROWITZ: That's true. Well, the statistics are kind of shocking. I mean, I guess we've known that we were actually weighing more, but the study actually says we're a different shape than we thought we were.
ZAHN: Look what a standard size eight is supposed to be for women in America. A bust 35, waist 27, hip 37.5. But real women, age 36 to 45, have the following measurements: bust 41, waist 34, hip 43.
BOROWITZ: Well, that's true. They say in this study that 60 percent, I guess, of women are pear-shaped.
ZAHN: So that's like this, OK.
BOROWITZ: Something like that. I mean, I actually -- I mean, I think you can kind of observe that probably from going to the mall, that we tend to be a pear-shaped nation. But they're also saying, I guess, 30 percent of women are what they call straight, have no waist whatsoever. Which is -- I mean, it's kind of good news because they no longer have to watch their waist. It doesn't exist. But it is kind of -- these are chilling statistics.
ZAHN: You know the most depressing one is that only 6 percent of women in this country are supposed to have ideal measurements.
BOROWITZ: Right. That is pretty much Catherine Zeta-Jones and I think one other person that have it ideal like that.
ZAHN: In America.
BOROWITZ: In America, I know.
ZAHN: Now, men don't fare much better.
BOROWITZ: Right. Well, I was hoping you wouldn't bring it around to us. But if you must.
ZAHN: Yes, we have to. A standard industry size 40 is this. Standard 40 regular, chest 40, waist 34, hip 40. But real men age 36 to 45 look like this: chest 44, waist 38, hip 42.
BOROWITZ: That is also somewhat in the pear family, wouldn't you say?
ZAHN: Yeah, we love pears.
BOROWITZ: Yeah, we do.
ZAHN: Pears are really good.
BOROWITZ: You know, I think we're gradually becoming what I would call a drawstring nation. I mean, we're a nation that really shuns belts.
But you know, it's -- I think there are a lot of things to blame. They talk about fast food and lack of exercise. I actually think studies like this are partially responsible, because writing them and reading them are two of the most sedentary activities in the world. And so as long as we're doing these studies, we'll continue to just emulate pears.
ZAHN: But you don't think this just applies to body size, you think it also affects your choice of toys and our cars.
BOROWITZ: Well, we're choosing bigger cars, like the Hummer, I think because they make us feel smaller. I mean, I think that's why. I mean, I actually think, when you go into a fast food restaurant, I suspected for some time that the chairs and tables are also being super sized to make us feel sleeker and more slender.
ZAHN: It's very comforting.
BOROWITZ: It is, it is.
ZAHN: I want you to look at this graphic now. When you look at Cro-Magnon man, averaging 5'1" tall. In late 1700s, the average men's height was five-foot-six. Today, the average man is 5'9", weight is 180 pounds. That's up four pounds alone from 1994. So are we destined to continue this super sizing route?
BOROWITZ: Well, you know, when I was little, I remember sci-fi movies always showed that in the future we would be kind of have tiny little bodies but enormous, throbbing brains because we got so smart. Exactly the opposite is happening.
ZAHN: Well, they're not working anymore.
BOROWITZ: No. We're becoming enormous, and because of computers, we have less brain capacity than ever. So we're becoming more like the dinosaur, I think.
ZAHN: So this is reverse evolution? BOROWITZ: Absolutely. And we're celebrating that tonight.
ZAHN: All right. So you're 6'5", right?
BOROWITZ: I'm 6'5'', that's true.
ZAHN: And where do you think the Borowitz family is headed over the next 10 to 50 years?
BOROWITZ: You know, we're not really in the pear category. I like to think -- I think we're mostly sort of in the celery-shaped department. We just seem to be mainly tall, straight up and down. But I don't know. We will just be kind of freakish stick figures, I guess.
ZAHN: Unless, of course, you have the allure of winning an Oscar.
BOROWITZ: Right.
ZAHN: Because a lot of actresses are being given big bucks to gain a lot of weight on screen.
BOROWITZ: Right, exactly. The Oscars are really the only segment of American society where you're rewarded, if you're a woman, for gaining 30 pounds. That's not true anywhere else in America. But on the Oscar night, definitely. Charlize, God bless her.
ZAHN: Andy Borowitz, thanks for dropping by tonight.
BOROWITZ: Thanks for having me.
ZAHN: Lights, camera, fashion, we'll look at the best and worst of this year's fashions at the Academy Awards. Some of them wowed, and a few did not.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Time for a little post-Oscar fashion handicapping. Let's turn to an expert. Joining us now, Kim France, "Lucky" magazine's editor in chief. Good to see you.
KIM FRANCE, "LUCKY" MAGAZINE EDITOR IN CHIEF: Hi.
ZAHN: Let's start right off with the fashion parade and the hits and the misses. Let's start off tonight with Julia Roberts. How did she do last night?
FRANCE: I thought she looked absolutely amazing. One of the interesting things about Julia is she doesn't work with a stylist. She really picks dresses out herself. And I think she did a really amazing job. She was wearing Armani.
ZAHN: And she has the perfect body.
FRANCE: She has the perfect dress. She has the perfect body, she had new light-looking hair, and she just embodies movie goddess to me. I thought she looked amazing.
ZAHN: Angelina Jolie?
FRANCE: Astonishing. Again, I think she's past that point in her life when she was looking to shock. And she's a woman who's made some serious mistakes on the red carpet. But last night...
ZAHN: When she was doing her Goth routine?
FRANCE: Yes, yes. And the pale, pale skin.
ZAHN: This was the antithesis of that?
FRANCE: She just looked amazing. It was really jaw-dropping, I think.
ZAHN: And Nicole Kidman certainly has mastered the pastel routine and the beauty of it.
FRANCE: Yes, very delicate. She can get away with clothes because she's so tall and thin, that nobody else can get away with. And she disappointed a lot of people at the Golden Globes, and I think she came back and showed people that she really is quite the fashion diva.
ZAHN: Stunning. And about the only color we saw on screen last night came from Catherine Zeta-Jones.
FRANCE: Yes.
ZAHN: Did that work?
FRANCE: Yes. I think she looked great. She was very excited because she's been pregnant so much. And...
ZAHN: Yeah, the last one, she basically almost gave birth while accepting her award.
FRANCE: Yes, and she looked thrilled.
ZAHN: She looked gorgeous. And the color worked on that stage. It sort of separated out from the background, which so many of those light gowns did not do.
Charlize Theron, the big winner of the night.
FRANCE: I think she also...
ZAHN: Also nailed it, didn't she?
FRANCE: Beautiful, beautiful. My only problem with Charlize, and this was confirmed by some people I work with, the beauty experts at "Lucky" also felt that she maybe went a little heavy on the spray- on tan.
ZAHN: Oh, really? I didn't catch that last night. FRANCE: She was a little...
ZAHN: Guess I don't have that refined a definition on my set.
FRANCE: But her dress was great. Her dress was great.
ZAHN: Let's take a peek at Uma Thurman, who looked dramatically different than she did just a couple of weeks ago, in one of the best dresses at the Screen Actors Guild Awards.
FRANCE: Amazing at the Screen Actors Guild. Amazing at the Golden Globes. Uma Thurman, it's as though she's gone insane. Because she has looked amazing at every appearance since she split from Ethan Hawke. She's drop dead gorgeous. I can't figure it out. It's as though she let her children dress her. I don't understand.
ZAHN: Renee Zellweger, a big winner last night, was she a winner in the clothing department?
FRANCE: Not so much. I think she has earned a very well deserved reputation as being one of the chic-est women in Hollywood. This dress, I felt, a little wedding. A little bit -- a little bit like a costume. I was not crazy about this dress.
ZAHN: With those cheekbones, who cares?
FRANCE: Well, you know, every other way, I think she's great. This dress...
ZAHN: We're going to very quickly put up a shot of Diane Keaton. Looked like she was frozen in time from her previous appearance in "Annie Hall."
FRANCE: And you know what, all she needed to do was get rid of the tie, wear a beautiful tuxedo with an open white shirt, and she would have been golden.
ZAHN: There she is. Well, Kim France, thanks for dropping by tonight. Appreciate it.
FRANCE: Thank you.
ZAHN: That wraps it up for all of us here. Thanks so much for being with all of us tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. We will be back here with special coverage tomorrow of super Tuesday. Have a great night. Thanks again for joining us.
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Martha Stewart Trial>
Aired March 1, 2004 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Welcome to a brand new week here. I'm Paula Zahn.
The world, the news, the names, the faces, and where we go from here on this Monday, March 1, 2004.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN (voice-over): "In Focus" tonight: The prosecution prepares its last shots at Martha Stewart, as closing arguments begin in the domestic diva's trial.
Also, the first head-to-toe survey of Americans in 60 years confirms our bodies have gone supersized.
And glitter and glamour, the good, the bad, the ugly at the Academy Awards.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: All that ahead tonight, plus, our Super Tuesday preview and new information about the new offensive in the hunt for Osama bin Laden.
First, here are some of the headlines you need to know right now.
Former Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide says he is a victim of a coup d'etat by the United States. In a CNN interview, he said he was told to leave Haiti to avoid bloodshed. Earlier today, Secretary of State Colin Powell denied claims that Aristide had been kidnapped. More on Haiti still ahead tonight.
Presidential hopefuls John Kerry and John Edwards are on their last campaign swing before the primaries in 10 different states, more than 1,100 delegates up for grabs. Edwards says he will stay in the race no matter what happens tomorrow.
And the Supreme Court won't question the federal government's right to freeze the assets of charity groups believed to sponsor terrorism. Today the high court rejected an appeal by a Muslim charity that was shut down after 9/11. The group is accused of sponsoring the Islamic fundamentalist group Hamas.
"In "focus" tonight, closing arguments in the Martha Stewart case. Prosecutor Michael Schachter today tried to paint Martha Stewart as a liar who thought she'd never get caught. Well, the case could go to the jury on Wednesday.
Joining us now, senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, criminal defense attorney Jayne Weintraub.
Welcome, both.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: You were in court today?
TOOBIN: I sure was.
ZAHN: Closing arguments, what were the highlights?
TOOBIN: Boy, Michael Schachter did such a good job of pulling together all of the disparate evidence that came in various sometimes unpredictable ways, facts -- I sat there in court the whole trial -- things that I completely missed.
Let me give you one example that he pointed out. Everybody who's following the case knows that the defense here is that Martha Stewart had an agreement to sell when the price of ImClone hit 60. That's why she says she sold the stock.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Well, what Michael Schachter pointed out is that, when Peter Bacanovic, the stockbroker, called Martha Stewart to sell the stock, at that precise moment, on 10:04, December 27, the stock was at 61.52. Why, if she had an agreement to sell at 60, would he be calling at that time?
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Just a difficult question for the prosecution to answer. The summation by Peter Bacanovic Bacanovic's lawyer, Rich Strassberg, began today. No answer to that and no answer to a lot in the government's summation.
MATTHEWS: And, Jayne, Robert Morvillo, Ms. Stewart's attorney, said that he will tell the court it was his fault that Martha Stewart didn't end up testifying. Is that a strategy that makes sense to you?
WEINTRAUB: Well, Paula, it's not that it's his fault. He's not taking blame. He's accepting responsibility for being the great lawyer that he is and giving his client the advice not to testify.
You know, when the government's case is weak, there's no reason to put her up and subject her to cross-examination of all sorts of things that might come into evidence that otherwise wouldn't. But, Paula, it's the client's decision. And Martha Stewart is a very smart client. She's educated. And she appreciates the consequences of the courtroom proceedings and what's going on. I'm sure it was Bob Morvillo's advice. Because he's a great lawyer. I'm sure she took it.
ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit more about Peter Bacanovic, who you touched on a little bit earlier this evening.
TOOBIN: Peter Bacanovic's troubles have troubles at this point.
ZAHN: Well, let's talk about his troubles have troubles. How badly compromised is he?
TOOBIN: Well, his lawyer, among other things, has used up virtually all his time, and all he has talked about the entire two- plus hours that he has talked is about how Douglas Faneuil, his former assistant, is a liar and a terrible guy and shouldn't be believed.
There is a lot of other stuff in this case, which it looks like he's not even going to have time to deal with, much less effective rebuttals for.
ZAHN: Jayne, I want to quickly move on to the Kobe Bryant case. And let's talk about the potential use of the alleged victim's sexual history. Is that fair game?
WEINTRAUB: Well, I think, in this particular case, based on these unique circumstances, it is fair game. And the reason why, Paula, is very simple.
We know that Kobe had sex with someone and we know that she had sex with someone else within the past 24 hours of this allegation. We also know that the defense is consensual sex. We have been told that there is vaginal tearing. If two people were in the cookie jar, how can you tell which one ate the last cookie? You can't. You have to be able to show a jury the entire picture, the entire cookie jar, and who was in there to know what was going on.
I think, in this particular case, it's not a matter of morality, which is why we have a rape shield law. It is a matter of credibility. And in this particular case, the accuser's credibility has been tarnished from the beginning, from the fact of her medical records and committing -- you know, the attempts to commit suicide over boyfriends, but not really going there. Twice, she did that to get his attention and admits it.
So I don't really know where we're going, but I think that, in order to give him a fair trial -- he's presumed innocent. She's an accuser who came in willingly to this proceeding. I think that the jurors need to see it, and I'm sure the judge will make that decision.
ZAHN: By watching your face, Jeffrey, you didn't look like you were too crazy about the cookie jar analogy here.
TOOBIN: That's not the metaphor I would choose at all.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Choose what you think is a more appropriate -- and what lengths the defense will go to, to chip away at the rape shield law?
TOOBIN: Well, I think the issue here is, he's trying to prove that the evidence points to another person. And that is very different from the purpose of the rape shield law.
The purpose of the rape shield law is to avoid public humiliation of rape victims that they might have a propensity to have sex with men. That's out. But, in this case, he is claiming that the evidence points to another person having sex with her. And I think that is a legitimate thing for the defense to look into. And just, out of basic fairness, I think they have a right to look into it.
And the judge today ordered some of the undergarments that the accuser was wearing turned over to the defense, so that they can do their own testing, which strikes me as a fair decision.
ZAHN: All right, Jeffrey Toobin, Jayne Weintraub, thank you for both of your perspectives tonight.
WEINTRAUB: Thank you, Paula.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: The focus on al Qaeda, the focus on UBL has been the same as it's been for a long time now, for many years, several years. And that is, if we can find him and Zawahiri and the other leadership, we're going to go after him. And that is as intense today as it was a month ago, as it was during Operation Iraqi Freedom, and it remains that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Well, despite General Myers' assurance, it's been nearly 2 1/2 years since the U.S. declared Osama bin Laden and the Taliban as the enemies behind the 9/11 attacks. Afghanistan's Taliban government is gone, but capturing the elusive bin Laden is another story.
And as winter breaks in Afghanistan, there is a major drive to snare bin Laden. That's the "TIME" magazine cover story this week headlined "Afghanistan: The Other War."
"TIME"'s Washington bureau chief, Michael Duffy, joins us now.
Always good to see you, Michael.
MICHAEL DUFFY, "TIME": Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: Tell me a little bit about what your reporters have learned who have been on the ground in Afghanistan?
DUFFY: Well, the country remains still a very fractured place.
It's run by a series of up to 20 warlords. And while President Karzai does maintain control of Kabul, this is a still country that's still finding its way as in the post-Taliban environment. We've also discovered that the U.S. is about to mount a pretty serious offensive here this spring to actually find bin Laden once and for all.
ZAHN: And why is it that government officials believe this hunt might be more successful than others in the past?
DUFFY: A couple things.
First of all, they seem to be doing this one in coordination with Pakistan. Osama bin Laden is presumed to be somewhere in the border area, probably on the Pakistan side of the border. They want the Pakistanis to push up from the east. And they're going to have the American forces, which they're going to reinforce, push from the west, and hopefully in a classic pincer movement, catch him in the bargain.
They've also sent back some special forces troops who they had moved over to Iraq a little more than a year ago. And they've now begun to redeploy back to Afghanistan. And, finally, they're just generally reinforcing the area in the border lands. And that they think will find him, though they're not saying that yet.
ZAHN: As you know, Michael, there is some cynicism in some quarters about this, I guess what you would call reenergized hunt for bin Laden and how it relates to the general election cycle. Does it?
DUFFY: There's a lot of cynicism about this whole thing.
Not a day goes by that I'm not asked by someone, Paula, whether we haven't already captured him and are just holding him. And that level of sort of presumed cynicism I think has got the administration very much on notice. And they recognize, if they're going to find Osama, it would be best, as Lady Macbeth said, that it would be done quickly. The later they wait into the year, the more they're going to have questions about why they waited closer to the election.
So I think the U.S. is on the right track to try to do this fast. They would do it fast, I think, anyway. But they recognize that there's a high level of doubt about the timing of a capture, if it comes. And so I think they've leaked a fair amount to different news organizations about this offensive. They sort of signaled that it's going to be happening. So they're trying to show some transparency about it.
ZAHN: But the other problem the administration has, of course, is the Taliban regaining some strength. How big of a concern is that?
DUFFY: That's the second reason they're having this offensive across a wide swathe of territory, from about Jalalabad, all the way down to Kandahar, right along the border.
The Taliban is resurgent. And, in some parts of the country, about a third of it, they are actually in nominal control. And U.S. officials will admit this privately. And so one of the things they want to do as they push west from the line from Kandahar to Kabul, they want to actually try to sweep some of those elements out and break up those groups and kill as many of them as they can.
They recognize some will fall back into Pakistan, but they hope that, if everybody comes together in that pincer movement, they'll not only wipe out the resurgent Taliban, but maybe find the tall guy.
ZAHN: Well, President Karzai is certainly making his thoughts known, when he says -- quote -- "If the U.S. military pulls out, al Qaeda would be back within months plotting attacks against America."
DUFFY: Yes, U.S. officials who have gone to the region and returned recently say that there's a definite change on the street in the country. You can tell people are a little more wary now of Americans. That indicates to them that there are more Taliban operating covertly around the country.
Karzai is almost a prisoner in the presidential palace. He essentially admits that, if the Americans left today, he wouldn't last very long. And, as you know, Karzai is really only president because he was one of the only guys who didn't have an Army. All the other warlords have one, and he represented someone who was kind of a safe choice to all the warlords. So it's still pretty precarious.
The U.S. keeps saying that it wants to have elections in Afghanistan. It's not clear there's a real timetable that's realistic for those. We talk a lot about elections in Southwest Asia these days.
ZAHN: Oh, absolutely, deadlines that may or may not hold.
DUFFY: May or may not.
ZAHN: "TIME" magazine's Washington bureau chief, Michael Duffy, it's always good to see you. Thanks.
The former president of Haiti says the U.S. ousted him in a coup, also calling it a kidnapping. We're going to hear from him as Haitians celebrate his exile. The battle rages on over gay marriage. Both sides are asking black Christians for their support. We'll hear from one black clergyman who says, if the Ku Klux Klan opposed gay marriage, he'd ride along with them.
Plus, Americans just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. We're going to look at the results of the first detailed snapshot in 60 years of Americans' measurements from head to toe.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: United States Marines are now manning positions at the presidential palace in Haiti's capital. That is just one sign of the end of the line for president Jean-Bertrand Aristide. He is now in exile in the Central African Republic, while Haitians celebrate his departure.
Lucia Newman reports from Port-au-Prince.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Haiti, scenes from the past. A decade after coming in to restore President Jean- Bertrand Aristide, the Marines are back to try and restore order without him. And then this, the triumphant entrance into the capital of rebels led by leaders of Haiti's disbanded Army.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today is liberation day for Haiti.
NEWMAN: It was a victory celebration, thousands embracing the return of Guy Philippe, the former police chief who came back from exile to force Aristide from power.
(on camera): If there was ever a demonstration of how quickly political passions can sway, it's this one. Some of the very same people who until recently were vowing to fight for the death for President Aristide are now welcoming back his arch enemies.
(voice-over): At the general police headquarters, people hugged the deputy rebel chief, a notorious former paramilitary leader, sentenced in absentia to life in prison for mass murder.
"Whatever the bad things from the past, 99 percent of the people here support us," said Louis Jodel Jamblane (ph).
Across the street, nervous U.S. Marines stood guard at the front door of the presidential palace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The U.S. forces are here to secure key sites in the Haitian capital around Port-au-Prince for the purpose of contributing to a more secure and stable environment and to help promote the constitutional, political process.
NEWMAN: Next to the morgue, hearses lined up to take away bodies of more than a dozen people murdered overnight, many of them executed.
"We blame President Bush for allowing all of this to happen. Getting rid of Aristide is not the solution," said this man, who told us supporters of the former president are terrified, a well-founded fear in a country where calls for peace and reconciliation have so often been silenced by guns.
Lucia Newman, CNN, Port-au-Prince.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And earlier tonight, in a CNN interview, President Aristide said he was the victim of a coup by the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN-BERTRAND ARISTIDE, FORMER HAITIAN PRESIDENT: They told me in a clear and blunt way that thousands of people will get killed once they start, so I have to do my best to avoid the bloodshed. They used force to push me out. That's why I call it again and again a coup d'etat, the modern way to have modern kidnapping.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: For reaction from Washington, we turn to national security correspondent David Ensor.
Colin Powell didn't like what he heard, did he?
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: He did not, and nor did the other officials we've been speaking to in this building today, Paula. They just say that is an absolute falsehood, that is not what happened, that Jean-Bertrand Aristide left under his volition. Here's how the secretary put it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Allegations that somehow we kidnapped former President Aristide are absolutely baseless, absurd. And it's rather unfortunate that, in this sensitive time, when we're trying to stabilize the situation in Haiti and when we're sending in a multinational interim force to help bring about that stability, and we're trying to put a political process on track, I think it's very unfortunate that these kind of absurd charges are leveled at us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: They're angry about the charges and also rather annoyed about the heavy coverage that they've gotten since that may endanger soldiers on the ground in Port-au-Prince, officials say, if some Haitians believe that the U.S. kidnapped Aristide, which it most certainly did not, officials say.
And, in fact, some sources have given us access to copies of the letter that Aristide signed when he left. This is in Creole. But in translation, it says, part of it says -- quote -- "I am resigning in order to avoid a bloodbath." So, again, sources are showing us a signed letter from Aristide that he planned to leave of his own volition.
Now, critics of the administration, like Senator Dodd of Connecticut, are saying, yes, I don't believe he was kidnapped, but I do believe he was forced out because the U.S. said they would not protect him. The administration says that that's quite true. We warned him we would not protect him. He needed to make a political deal with his opposition, if it could be done. If it could not be done, we were not going to spend American blood in order to save President Aristide -- Paula.
ZAHN: But if Mr. Aristide signed this letter that you have a copy of in your hand, how can he make the claim he was kidnapped?
ENSOR: Well, indeed.
And one official here this evening said that, frankly, in the past, President Aristide has made comments which are erratic, unusual, to be polite, and they just think he's not all accurate, shall we say.
ZAHN: Well, that's, I guess, a generous way, from their viewpoint, of stating that.
David Ensor, thank you so much for that report.
Coming up later tonight, a breakthrough in the disappearance of a Mississippi family. A suspect is charged with the triple murder. It may have been a family feud over money.
And we're going to move on to president politics. It's down to the wire for the Democrats in the biggest primary dale of all. Some of the biggest cities vote on Super Tuesday. We're going to look at who has the best chance of energizing the nation's cities.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: More than half of all the delegates needed to become the Democratic nominee are at stake tomorrow on Super Tuesday. And the primaries also include a rich mix of minority voters in some of the largest cities, like New York, L.A., Baltimore, and Atlanta.
Let's get a primary preview now. Joining us from Atlanta, Georgia Congressman John Lewis, who has endorsed John Kerry, our regulars, in Los Angeles, "TIME" magazine columnist Joe Klein, and, in Phoenix tonight, former Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke.
Good to see all of you.
VICTORIA CLARKE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: So, Joe, I'm going to start with you this evening. If everything goes as planned, does John Kerry effectively clinch the nomination?
JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I don't know how it's planned. We have to have an election tomorrow. If Kerry wins most of these states, then he's in a pretty strong position. But, you know, as always, Paula, I'm patient. I want to see the people vote.
ZAHN: Congressman, let's bring you into the picture now. We saw some real tension yesterday between Senator John Kerry and Senator John Edwards. What did that signify to you?
REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: I think this is a natural tension between two people that, one must win and one will not necessarily lose, but you can only have one nominee.
ZAHN: So, Torie, does that mean much to you in terms of any potential personality conflict down the road?
VICTORIA CLARKE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Every campaign cycle, we see candidates during the primary just beating the you know what out of each other and saying terrible things, but then they kiss and make up.
Look at what Wesley Clark was saying about John Kerry right before he got out of the race and 24 hours later, there they were hugging one another. So I think it's pretty much is politics as usual.
KLEIN: By historical standards, this is not hardball. This is like badminton. These guys really haven't gone at each other at all.
And if you look back, in 1960, Lyndon Johnson was spreading the rumor that John Kennedy had Hodgkin's disease. And Kennedy put him on the ticket.
LEWIS: You know what is happening, I think, between the two leading candidates, but also among Democratic voters, people want to win. They want to win more than anything.
ZAHN: Congressman, we're going to put up on the screen now something that a think tank has found when it comes to the African American vote. And they have determined that the turnout was better and has been up 10 to 20 percent higher than it was back in the year 1992, the last time the Democrats had a contested primary. Do you think that will translate into a higher voter turnout on Election Day?
LEWIS: Oh, I think it's a clear indication that you're going to have a greater turnout among black voters. People have not recovered from what happened in Florida in 2000.
And there's the sense that we must never, ever forget what happened in Florida. And people tend to see the present administration out of touch, out of sync with the feeling of the great majority of African-Americans. And I think African-Americans are going to turn out and vote like we never, ever voted before.
ZAHN: Is that something that concerns this White House, Torie?
CLARKE: Well, the White House is taking -- the president and the campaign are taking this election very, very seriously. They're not going to take anything for granted. They're not going to take any state for granted. They're going to go after every single vote, including African-Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Finally tonight, Joe, the White House stepping up its attacks on John Kerry, branding him as a Massachusetts liberal, how much traction will those attacks have?
KLEIN: Well, I think that the most important point here is this. There are some presidential elections that kind of skim along the surface of American life. Others are very close to the bone. This election is going to be a close-to-the-bone election.
If we're lucky this year, we're going to have an actual argument about real -- about things that really matter, and that's not always the case in presidential politics.
ZAHN: All right, team, got to leave it there tonight. Congressman John Lewis, thanks for your time, Joe Klein, Victoria Clarke, yours as well.
CLARKE: Thanks, Paula.
ZAHN: The black church in America was the bedrock and the conscience of the civil rights movement. Now both sides in the gay marriage debate want it to choose sides. Is gay marriage a civil right? We'll have a debate. And the average American has gotten bigger and rounder and not always in the right places. Yes, we are pears, folks. We're going to tell you about the first detailed study of the American physique in 50 years.
And you may not remember past Oscar winners, but what about those outrageous Oscar fashions of the past? How do the women stack up this year? Everything from the strapless to the speechless at the Oscars.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Here are some of the headlines you need to know right now. This just in to CNN, Kobe Bryant's accuser will not be in court tomorrow. But the hearing will go on as scheduled. Bryant has not seen his accuser since last June 30. That was the day of the alleged rape. In court today, his defense argued the woman engaged in multiple acts of intercourse just before meeting Bryant.
Coast Guard has suspended the search for 18 crew members of a tanker that exploded and sank off the Virginia coast on Saturday. At least three other crewmen were killed, six of them rescued. The Coast Guard says the explosion was accidental, but the exact cause is being investigated.
And a new study says anti-bacterial soap may not be protecting you from common health ailments. Researchers at Columbia University say the soap doesn't reduce the symptoms of viral infections such as those associated with the common cold. The study's author says consumers may not realize it fights bacteria but not viruses.
Meanwhile, those fighting for gay marriage like to compare it to the battle of African-Americans waged 40 years ago and they're hoping for support from black Christians but it may be an uphill battle. Is it fair to debate gay marriage and civil rights? We're going to debate that tonight as two black clergymen face off against each other. Joining us now, the Reverend Gregory Daniels, pastor of United Voters for Truth and Change in Chicago and Elder Claude Bowen, a retired pastor of Unity of Riverside Church in Los Angeles. Good to see both of you. Welcome.
Reverend Daniels, I would love to start with you this evening. You oppose gay marriage, and yet you were quoted as saying this, we are going to put on the screen, quote, "if the KKK opposes gay marriage I would ride with them. How could you align yourself with the KKK?"
REV. GREGORY DANIELS, PASTOR, UNITED VOTERS FOR TRUTH AND CHANGE: Well, it was a statement that certainly has dogged me for a little while since we made that statement, but it was about the strength of the stance against this issue. And I wanted it to be brought out to the front, and sometimes you have to sensationalize your comments in reference to your feelings on a certain issue. And certainly, we know that the KKK is one of the most negative organizations in this country and racist, but certainly if they were opposing gay marriage, yes, I did say that I would ride with them.
ZAHN: When you heard that, Elder Bowen, what went through your mind?
ELDER CLAUDE BOWEN, RET. PASTOR, UNITY OF RIVERSIDE CHURCH: I was furious, but then I felt very, very sad that a member of the African American people would align themselves with someone. I thought I was -- OK. And I just can't imagine a person, a clergy person that teaches that God is love and love is for everyone will align themselves with someone that publicly hates another group of people that God created.
ZAHN: All right. Let's come back to the more narrow issue of the debate, Elder Bowen. Is denying people the right to marry a violation of their civil rights?
BOWEN: Yes, it is. It denies a person that works in this country and is taxed like everyone else equal rights. That denial is wrong.
ZAHN: And, Reverend Daniels, do you equate the struggle of those folks who want to get married and have their marriages sanctioned with the struggle for any improvement in civil rights back in the '50s?
DANIELS: Well, absolutely not. This is not a civil rights issue. This is a special interest, a sexual orientation issue that should not be in the forefront of government. Spending money on a bedroom issue, to me, is not a civil rights issue. We have many states who have embraced this and are giving medical coverage for homosexual mates. We are not drinking hateorade (ph) for the gays. We are not homophobic. And certainly, as a Christian, we do love everybody, even the KKK.
They are human beings, just like the homosexuals. But because they have lots of money, lots of influence, highly educated, they're able to put this issue in our face every day and the perpetuity of stupidity continues from Hollywood, from Federal Communications Commission who allow these people to keep this issue in our face. We watched San Francisco marriages go on and on. Children are watching the news. Young people are being influenced by this. And that's who is at stake most in this situation. Our children.
ZAHN: Elder Bowen, do you think that Reverend Daniels and the folks who are opposed to gay marriage are homophobic?
BOWEN: Of course they're homophobic. And the real issue is that any time anyone takes any law that legislates love, eliminates and excludes another group of people they are wrong. That is not what God placed us on this earth for. We were here to love each other, to support each other, and we are all equal under God's law and human law.
ZAHN: All right. Let's go back to Reverend Daniels. He says he doesn't believe you when you say you're not homophobic.
BOWEN: Well, he can believe what he wants to believe. I know what homophobic means, and I am not homophobic. I do business with homosexual people. I interact with them on a daily basis in some of my business affairs. No, we're not homophobic. We don't bash them. We're not hating them. What we're saying to the elder is that, if he wants to quote God or he wants to invoke God, then he should read Romans 1 and 18 through 32, and the 18th chapter of Leviticus.
ZAHN: Elder Bowen, you get the last word tonight.
BOWEN: Levitical law is a human law. God is love. Love is for everyone. If you deny me the right that other human beings have, what else do you call it but homophobic? Homophobic is just another form or another word for hate.
ZAHN: Gentlemen, we have to leave it there. Reverend Gregory Daniels, Elder Claude Bowen. Thank you so much for being with us.
And it's not as if we didn't expect this, but an intensive scientific survey shows Americans have put on some pounds in the last few generations. The 21st century is looking potbellied and pear shaped.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Breaking news tonight in the mysterious disappearance of a family in Mississippi. Authorities tell CNN three bodies have been found believed to be those of a man, his wife, and their 4-year-old son. For more, we're joined by William Strain, spokesman for the Mississippi Department of Public Safety.
He's joining us from where the charges were read today. Sir, you're with us, thanks so much for being with us. I guess this is the news that everybody feared.
How disappointed were you that this is how this ended up?
WARREN STRAIN, MISSISSIPPI HIGHWAY PATROL: Well, late this afternoon, our worst fears were confirmed. With what appeared to be two male bodies and then also what appeared to be the body of a child. They were recovered from a wooded area in a rural area of Covington County, Mississippi. The bodies have been turned over to the coroner and now will be processed through the normal forensic science testing that goes in this type of situation. The bodies will undergo an autopsy, and the other forensic testing through the state pathologist.
ZAHN: Are you able at this hour to determine the cause of death of the victims?
STRAIN: I'm sorry. We're having technical difficulties here, so I can't hear anything.
ZAHN: Mr. Strain, I'll try one more time.
Can you hear me now?
OK. We've lost Mr. Strain. But once again, he is a spokesman for the Mississippi Department of Public Safety. Confirming the terrible news that three members of one family have been discovered in a field. We don't know exactly what led to the discovery. There was speculation today that upon some pretty serious questioning of a suspect in the case, that there was information led to the breaking of this.
Let's turn to Mayor Ron Walker of Taylorsville, Mississippi, who also joins us. Suspect Ernest Lee Hargon is from his town.
Thank you very much for joining us, sir. First of all, your reaction to this news.
RON WALKER, MAYOR OF TAYLORSVILLE: We are totally devastated. Our entire town is. We have been following this case since it began on the 14th, and we're just really shocked at the developments today.
ZAHN: Mayor, we're going to go back to Mr. Strain one more time because I think we've reestablished our connection with him.
Mr. Strain, if, you would, describe what ultimately led your investigators to these bodies after an intensive search.
STRAIN: The Mississippi Bureau of Investigations developed information overnight and early this morning that led to a wooded area in Covington County, Mississippi, not too far from where we were searching over the weekend and relatively close proximity to the home of Ernest Lee Hargon, who was charged this afternoon with three counts of capital murder. We found the bodies of two adults and what appears to be the body of a child.
ZAHN: Are you able to determine at this hour the cause of their deaths?
STRAIN: At this point, no. The forensic testing will be going on through the evening to determine the exact cause of death and manner of death, also, the identity of the individual or the bodies that were recovered this afternoon.
ZAHN: I know that you had some pretty intense questioning of the suspect, Ernest Lee Hargon.
Did he ultimately provide information that led to these bodies?
STRAIN: Information that was developed during the course of the investigation by the Mississippi Bureau of Investigations led to not only the charges that were filed this afternoon of capital murder against Ernest Lee Hargon, but also the recovery of these three bodies that could very well prove to be the Hargon family.
ZAHN: What is the most compelling evidence that led you to charge earnest Hargon with the murder of his cousin and other family members?
STRAIN: Well, at this point, to get into the specifics of the case would be premature.
ZAHN: Although some family members of his have suggested that the motive had something to do with money and the disposition of a piece of property.
Is that true? STRAIN: At this point, to get into motive and any other test results we have or any other components of the investigation, we'd prefer not to comment. We'll reserve comment.
ZAHN: Mr. Strain, if you mind standing by, we're going to go back to Mayor Walker to talk a little bit more about the reaction of the local community there.
I know you said there was shock and great sadness about this news.
What else are people talking about there?
WALKER: Well, we're just trying to offer our assistance, mainly, in any way we possibly can. We've been on hand throughout the entire weekend. And trying to make some sense of all this, Paula. It's very shocking for a small town our size to have to deal with a crime of this magnitude.
ZAHN: Now, Mr. Mayor, you've actually met the suspect, and you're familiar with his wife, aren't you, and have known her since high school.
WALKER: Absolutely. Yes. Dr. Lisa Ainsworth is his wife. She's the local veterinarian. I've known her and her family all her life. They're well respected people in the community. And our hearts go out to her as well, and her family. I did know the suspect.
ZAHN: Please carry on, sir.
WALKER: I also have a small cattle farm, and Lisa, of course, is my veterinarian, and Ernest would come to assist her with treatment of animals from time to time. And that was my only opportunity to visit much with him. He was always cordial, very relaxed, a nice guy. And he did most of the manual labor with the large an animals, and she, of course, did the medical treatment of those animals.
ZAHN: What can you tell us about where she is tonight?
A number of reports have suggested she's in seclusion and not doing too well.
WALKER: I attempted to contact her this morning at her parents just to wish her well and was not able to locate her. She is, obviously, distraught and is at an undisclosed location. I spoke to two employees in her veterinary clinic and assured me they would pass along the good wishes that we're trying to extend to her. But we could not contact her today.
ZAHN: Mayor Ron Walker, thank you so much for being with us. We also want to thanks very much to Warren Strain, who is the spokesman for the Mississippi Department of Public Safety. Thank you, gentlemen.
And just a quick reminder of for those of you who might be joining us, Mr. Strain confirming for us that three members of that family who have been missing are now confirmed dead this evening. The cause of death has not yet been determined. The case goes on as charges were filed this afternoon in the case. The investigation goes on as charges were filed late this afternoon in a case a man named Ernest Lee Hargon was charged with capital murder in the deaths of Michael Hargon, his wife Rebecca, and their 4-year-old son. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: The first head-to-toe survey of American body size since World War II shows the average American has indeed super sized. The survey sponsored in part by the clothing industry and the military measured necks and thighs, and tummies and tushes, and found some pretty startling differences. Humorist Andy Borowitz joins us tonight to help us get to the bottom of all this. How are you tonight?
ANDY BOROWITZ, HUMORIST: I'm good, I'm good.
ZAHN: So I guess we're pretty messed up, because what we think we are we're not.
BOROWITZ: That's true. Well, the statistics are kind of shocking. I mean, I guess we've known that we were actually weighing more, but the study actually says we're a different shape than we thought we were.
ZAHN: Look what a standard size eight is supposed to be for women in America. A bust 35, waist 27, hip 37.5. But real women, age 36 to 45, have the following measurements: bust 41, waist 34, hip 43.
BOROWITZ: Well, that's true. They say in this study that 60 percent, I guess, of women are pear-shaped.
ZAHN: So that's like this, OK.
BOROWITZ: Something like that. I mean, I actually -- I mean, I think you can kind of observe that probably from going to the mall, that we tend to be a pear-shaped nation. But they're also saying, I guess, 30 percent of women are what they call straight, have no waist whatsoever. Which is -- I mean, it's kind of good news because they no longer have to watch their waist. It doesn't exist. But it is kind of -- these are chilling statistics.
ZAHN: You know the most depressing one is that only 6 percent of women in this country are supposed to have ideal measurements.
BOROWITZ: Right. That is pretty much Catherine Zeta-Jones and I think one other person that have it ideal like that.
ZAHN: In America.
BOROWITZ: In America, I know.
ZAHN: Now, men don't fare much better.
BOROWITZ: Right. Well, I was hoping you wouldn't bring it around to us. But if you must.
ZAHN: Yes, we have to. A standard industry size 40 is this. Standard 40 regular, chest 40, waist 34, hip 40. But real men age 36 to 45 look like this: chest 44, waist 38, hip 42.
BOROWITZ: That is also somewhat in the pear family, wouldn't you say?
ZAHN: Yeah, we love pears.
BOROWITZ: Yeah, we do.
ZAHN: Pears are really good.
BOROWITZ: You know, I think we're gradually becoming what I would call a drawstring nation. I mean, we're a nation that really shuns belts.
But you know, it's -- I think there are a lot of things to blame. They talk about fast food and lack of exercise. I actually think studies like this are partially responsible, because writing them and reading them are two of the most sedentary activities in the world. And so as long as we're doing these studies, we'll continue to just emulate pears.
ZAHN: But you don't think this just applies to body size, you think it also affects your choice of toys and our cars.
BOROWITZ: Well, we're choosing bigger cars, like the Hummer, I think because they make us feel smaller. I mean, I think that's why. I mean, I actually think, when you go into a fast food restaurant, I suspected for some time that the chairs and tables are also being super sized to make us feel sleeker and more slender.
ZAHN: It's very comforting.
BOROWITZ: It is, it is.
ZAHN: I want you to look at this graphic now. When you look at Cro-Magnon man, averaging 5'1" tall. In late 1700s, the average men's height was five-foot-six. Today, the average man is 5'9", weight is 180 pounds. That's up four pounds alone from 1994. So are we destined to continue this super sizing route?
BOROWITZ: Well, you know, when I was little, I remember sci-fi movies always showed that in the future we would be kind of have tiny little bodies but enormous, throbbing brains because we got so smart. Exactly the opposite is happening.
ZAHN: Well, they're not working anymore.
BOROWITZ: No. We're becoming enormous, and because of computers, we have less brain capacity than ever. So we're becoming more like the dinosaur, I think.
ZAHN: So this is reverse evolution? BOROWITZ: Absolutely. And we're celebrating that tonight.
ZAHN: All right. So you're 6'5", right?
BOROWITZ: I'm 6'5'', that's true.
ZAHN: And where do you think the Borowitz family is headed over the next 10 to 50 years?
BOROWITZ: You know, we're not really in the pear category. I like to think -- I think we're mostly sort of in the celery-shaped department. We just seem to be mainly tall, straight up and down. But I don't know. We will just be kind of freakish stick figures, I guess.
ZAHN: Unless, of course, you have the allure of winning an Oscar.
BOROWITZ: Right.
ZAHN: Because a lot of actresses are being given big bucks to gain a lot of weight on screen.
BOROWITZ: Right, exactly. The Oscars are really the only segment of American society where you're rewarded, if you're a woman, for gaining 30 pounds. That's not true anywhere else in America. But on the Oscar night, definitely. Charlize, God bless her.
ZAHN: Andy Borowitz, thanks for dropping by tonight.
BOROWITZ: Thanks for having me.
ZAHN: Lights, camera, fashion, we'll look at the best and worst of this year's fashions at the Academy Awards. Some of them wowed, and a few did not.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Time for a little post-Oscar fashion handicapping. Let's turn to an expert. Joining us now, Kim France, "Lucky" magazine's editor in chief. Good to see you.
KIM FRANCE, "LUCKY" MAGAZINE EDITOR IN CHIEF: Hi.
ZAHN: Let's start right off with the fashion parade and the hits and the misses. Let's start off tonight with Julia Roberts. How did she do last night?
FRANCE: I thought she looked absolutely amazing. One of the interesting things about Julia is she doesn't work with a stylist. She really picks dresses out herself. And I think she did a really amazing job. She was wearing Armani.
ZAHN: And she has the perfect body.
FRANCE: She has the perfect dress. She has the perfect body, she had new light-looking hair, and she just embodies movie goddess to me. I thought she looked amazing.
ZAHN: Angelina Jolie?
FRANCE: Astonishing. Again, I think she's past that point in her life when she was looking to shock. And she's a woman who's made some serious mistakes on the red carpet. But last night...
ZAHN: When she was doing her Goth routine?
FRANCE: Yes, yes. And the pale, pale skin.
ZAHN: This was the antithesis of that?
FRANCE: She just looked amazing. It was really jaw-dropping, I think.
ZAHN: And Nicole Kidman certainly has mastered the pastel routine and the beauty of it.
FRANCE: Yes, very delicate. She can get away with clothes because she's so tall and thin, that nobody else can get away with. And she disappointed a lot of people at the Golden Globes, and I think she came back and showed people that she really is quite the fashion diva.
ZAHN: Stunning. And about the only color we saw on screen last night came from Catherine Zeta-Jones.
FRANCE: Yes.
ZAHN: Did that work?
FRANCE: Yes. I think she looked great. She was very excited because she's been pregnant so much. And...
ZAHN: Yeah, the last one, she basically almost gave birth while accepting her award.
FRANCE: Yes, and she looked thrilled.
ZAHN: She looked gorgeous. And the color worked on that stage. It sort of separated out from the background, which so many of those light gowns did not do.
Charlize Theron, the big winner of the night.
FRANCE: I think she also...
ZAHN: Also nailed it, didn't she?
FRANCE: Beautiful, beautiful. My only problem with Charlize, and this was confirmed by some people I work with, the beauty experts at "Lucky" also felt that she maybe went a little heavy on the spray- on tan.
ZAHN: Oh, really? I didn't catch that last night. FRANCE: She was a little...
ZAHN: Guess I don't have that refined a definition on my set.
FRANCE: But her dress was great. Her dress was great.
ZAHN: Let's take a peek at Uma Thurman, who looked dramatically different than she did just a couple of weeks ago, in one of the best dresses at the Screen Actors Guild Awards.
FRANCE: Amazing at the Screen Actors Guild. Amazing at the Golden Globes. Uma Thurman, it's as though she's gone insane. Because she has looked amazing at every appearance since she split from Ethan Hawke. She's drop dead gorgeous. I can't figure it out. It's as though she let her children dress her. I don't understand.
ZAHN: Renee Zellweger, a big winner last night, was she a winner in the clothing department?
FRANCE: Not so much. I think she has earned a very well deserved reputation as being one of the chic-est women in Hollywood. This dress, I felt, a little wedding. A little bit -- a little bit like a costume. I was not crazy about this dress.
ZAHN: With those cheekbones, who cares?
FRANCE: Well, you know, every other way, I think she's great. This dress...
ZAHN: We're going to very quickly put up a shot of Diane Keaton. Looked like she was frozen in time from her previous appearance in "Annie Hall."
FRANCE: And you know what, all she needed to do was get rid of the tie, wear a beautiful tuxedo with an open white shirt, and she would have been golden.
ZAHN: There she is. Well, Kim France, thanks for dropping by tonight. Appreciate it.
FRANCE: Thank you.
ZAHN: That wraps it up for all of us here. Thanks so much for being with all of us tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. We will be back here with special coverage tomorrow of super Tuesday. Have a great night. Thanks again for joining us.
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