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Paula Zahn Now

U.S. Marines Killed in Iraq; Tricked Into Confession?

Aired April 06, 2004 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us tonight. I'm Paula Zahn.
It is Tuesday, April 6, 2004.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): Tonight, a major attack against U.S. forces in Iraq, as Marines battle insurgents in the city of Ramadi. At least a dozen Marines are reported dead.

Behind bars for nearly 14 years for murdering his parents, this man still claims a detective tricked him into confessing. Does he serve a new trial.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: All that and more ahead tonight, but, first, here's what you need to know right now.

In the western Iraqi city Ramadi, U.S. Marines came under a fierce attack tonight. A dozen Americans are reported dead. Ramadi is inside the Sunni Triangle, where so much of the resistance of the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq has happened. We have team coverage tonight, Walt Rodgers in Baghdad, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, Suzanne Malveaux at the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas.

We get started tonight with Walter Rodgers -- good evening, Walter.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Paula.

The Marines are facing very different fighting in Ramadi, about 60 miles west of Baghdad, difficult because it is night fighting, it is street to street, and the Marines are fighting in unfamiliar territory. What's happening is the revolt against the American military occupation has spread and expanded. In Ramadi, what happened about three or four hours ago, upwards of 100 Sunni Muslim insurgents began storming government buildings in the town Ramadi. That's the Marine sector of responsibility. They were called in.

It is a pitched battle, savage fighting. We're told that upwards of 12 U.S. Marines have been killed there alone. The numbers of wounded go higher than that. Casualties by the Iraqis are said to be even higher, that is, many more Iraqi dead. It's believed the opposition is former members of Saddam Hussein's Baathist party, former members of the Iraqi army.

Elsewhere in Iraq, and this is a two-fronted revolt, in the Sunni Triangle, like Ramadi and Fallujah, elsewhere, we are also seeing considerable fighting in Fallujah. There, the Marines are fighting to try to establish recontrol of that city. They lost control of Fallujah about a week ago Wednesday when the -- when four civilian contractors were brutally murdered and then their bodies were desecrated. Again, the United States was incensed by that.

The Marines have been poised to go back in. They're there for two days inside of Fallujah now. The fighting is again intense there as well. Like Ramadi, Fallujah is part of the Sunni Triangle. The Marines are fighting street to street there.

The other front of the revolt against the U.S. military occupation is in the Shiite South. That includes elements of Baghdad as well, but an-Najaf, there's been fighting there, and also, the other coalition forces, the British are facing trouble in Amara, again the Shiite uprising. Also, the Italians are facing trouble in Nasiriyah, more fighting there, and Ukrainian troops in Kut. Not a good day for the coalition -- Paula.

ZAHN: Walter Rodgers, thank so much for the update.

Let's turn to the Pentagon now for the very latest from there.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre now joins us.

What is the latest from there, Jamie?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest from here is that this outbreak of fighting all across Iraq is threatening to make this the deadliest day since the end of major combat in Iraq.

When you add up the casualties of the Marines at Ramadi, which we are told that as many as 12 killed and more than 20 wounded, along with casualties from Fallujah, where five Marines were killed today and some other isolated killings across the country, it's likely to exceed the 19 killed in one day that was the deadliest day back on November 15.

We are told that this fighting in Ramadi was apparently an attack by insurgents against the Marines and against -- taking over some buildings in what was called the governor's compound area. The Marines moved back in to take those buildings back and they inflicted heavy casualties, as well as taking them. They also were told -- had damage to a Bradley Fighting Vehicle and an M1-A1 tank, an indication of how fierce the fighting was.

This comes as the Pentagon is trying to say that what's happening in Iraq is manageable with the number of troops they have on the ground. And they're continuing to insist at this point they don't need to send more troops. It also came on a day in which a close associate of Osama bin Laden, Musab al-Zarqawi, was heard in an audiotape posted on an Islamist Web site making threats against the coalition authority provisional leader, Paul Bremer, as well as General Abizaid, the U.S. central commander.

In a translation made by CNN, Zarqawi is seen, is heard to say -- quote -- "We will hunt them like birds. We will cut off ever road from them. We will kill them" -- a threat from al-Zarqawi. And according to CNN's own experts, they believe this tape is authentic -- Paula.

ZAHN: Jamie McIntyre, thank you so much.

Now for the Bush administration's reaction to today's grim developments in Iraq, White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux joins us tonight from the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas.

What are you hearing from there, Suzanne?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paula, President Bush is at his ranch. He's getting constant updates about what is happening on the ground in Iraq, a White House spokesman reiterating what the president has said for days and weeks now. This is a White House that will not be intimidated by violence, that official saying this administration remains committed to finishing the job in Iraq.

It is very clear from what the generals and commanders have said that the U.S. will respond in the time and fashion of our choosing. Administration sources tell us that President Bush will meet with British Prime Minister Tony Blair next Friday at the White House, but those sources saying this is a meeting that was set up weeks ago, not reaction to the violence we've seen, the chaos in the last 72 hours in Iraq.

But having said that, administration sources say this is going to be the top priority of their talks. They're going to talk about the strategy of returning power to the Iraqi people. They will also talk about how to work with the U.N. to make sure that is a workable, functioning body that can handle the task, and also the importance of meet that June 30 deadline, that that is something that they plan on sticking to.

President Bush earlier today spoke in general terms about the U.S. strategy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're not going to be intimidated by thugs or assassins. We're not going to cut and run from the people who long for freedom, because you know what? We understand a free Iraq is an historic opportunity to help change the world to be more peaceful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And administration officials say they're going to stick with that deadlines, that this is a political transition, it's not a military transition. That means U.S. forces are going to remain on the ground for some time -- Paula.

ZAHN: Suzanne Malveaux, Jamie McIntyre, Walter Rodgers, thank for you all your live updates.

And now we're going to try to put all this fighting in Iraq into focus tonight. We're going to bring in our own CNN military analyst, Brigadier General David Grange. He joins us tonight from Oak Brook, Illinois.

Welcome, sir.

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you.

ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit more about this two-fronted revolt that U.S. forces now face in Iraq. Do you believe these revolts are connected?

GRANGE: They may be. I don't think so. I believe that right now they just have to be coincidental because of the warrant for the Shiite leader at the same time going in to regain control of Fallujah.

But it could be a loose alliance because -- and both of these insurgent forces, the common enemy is the coalition, and so there may be a loose coalition between them for convenience. They could turn on each other at a later date.

ZAHN: If there is a loose alliance, what does that mean? How much trouble are U.S. troops in?

GRANGE: I don't think it's as grim as some of the reports say. I think that it's severe fighting, don't get me wrong. Combat to anybody that is involved, even if it's with one other person, can be severe in your own mind.

But I think that it's a -- the coordinated attack shows some more audacity, that they're trying to do a coordinated effort throughout different parts of the country, but I don't think that it's going to sustain itself. I think it will be whipped after a bit here.

ZAHN: Let's take a look at a map now that shows the Sunni Triangle, and I want you to help us all understand tonight why this is such a critical piece of territory for U.S. forces.

GRANGE: Well, since ground combat maneuver operations ended, it's always been an area that was very loyal to Saddam and his lieutenants. And it's where people continue to resist the transfer of the dictatorship to some type of democratic governance.

And so the tribes that supported Saddam from this area, and a lot of these people faded back into the woodwork, Fedayeen and other insurgent types that support -- well, insurgents now, but those that supported Saddam in earlier days, and so they have nothing to do except to pick up an AK-47 and fight. And that's what you have. You have these people now coming together, a little more bold than in the past, to take on the coalition.

ZAHN: Was there anything you could have done prospectively in a military plan that would stop these people from blurring in with the general population?

GRANGE: Well, a couple things that could have happened, but, again, as you look back, it's always much easier when you're on the objective right after a fight.

However, what you could have done, maybe, is got rid of the weapons a little bit faster. Now, they destroyed tons of weapons, don't get me wrong, but this place, Iraq, is full of weaponry, and obviously it's still full of it or it's being brought in by somebody.

The other is to get people some jobs right away, whatever they are, planting desert roses along the highway, something, to keep them off the streets, hang out, young men with nothing to do. That's always people available to do something bad and you want to get rid of that. So maybe those couple things.

The other is, if someone is wanted for a crime, even if it's dangerous, you got to go after them early on. Once they build up a militia, especially if a militia is not authorized in this present-day occupation, then it should have been nipped early. And now we're living with a 3,000-man force down south with the Shiites, as an example.

ZAHN: General, I just need a quick yes or no here. Do you believe ultimately more U.S. troops will be needed on the ground in Iraq?

GRANGE: Yes, mainly to show resolve, to show that it can be done and for psychological effect, yes.

ZAHN: General David Grange, as always, thank you for your candor.

GRANGE: My pleasure.

ZAHN: The battle on the ground in Ramadi will only intensify the debate in Washington, how to get Iraq under control in time to hand over power in June.

And she grew up in the south during the time of segregation. We're going to look how Condoleezza Rice got from there to the White House as she gets ready to testify before the 9/11 Commission on Thursday.

And he was sent to prison as a teenager and has spent 14 years there for killing his parents. He says the detective tricked him into confessing, so will new evidence help get him a new trial?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: If you're just joining us, U.S. troops are enduring one of the deadliest days in Iraq since the toppling of Saddam Hussein's regime, Pentagon officials confirming an insurgent attack on the western city of Ramadi has left as many as 12 Marines dead, up to 20 Marines wounded. For more on this latest crisis in Iraq and the U.S. future there, let's go to our Washington bureau and Mamoun Fandy, senior fellow at the U.S. Institute for Peace.

Welcome, sir.

MAMOUN FANDY, SENIOR FELLOW, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: Thank you.

ZAHN: How much stronger do you think this insurgency movement can get?

FANDY: It can get very strong.

I think, in my assessment, this is the most dangerous turning point since the toppling of Saddam Hussein. It looks like the two- front war, as Walt Rodgers pointed out, from Fallujah, Ramadi, and the Sunni Triangle. And now the confrontation with Muqtada al-Sadr in the Shia region of the South makes that -- the word on the street would be that the Americans are up for grab, and that resistance is open, and you have the mix of Zarqawi again and al Qaeda, so the whole situation is getting very complicated.

ZAHN: Mr. Fandy, do you believe there is a loose alliance and that these two-front revolts are connected in some way?

FANDY: Well, I think there is a general sense practically that the Americans practically did not manage the situation well, and still is building on the shame that the Iraqis felt after the desecration of the American bodies. And instead they punished everybody in Fallujah, and then went after Muqtada al-Sadr.

So the whole idea there is that the Americans are on the run.

ZAHN: I'm not clear on what you are saying. What do you mean, build on the shame, that that was the mistake of the U.S. government?

FANDY: Well, the Iraqis, the general Iraqis felt tremendous shame of the desecration of the American bodies. So there was at least a political will amongst the general public that they would isolate the extreme Fallujans, if you will. But instead, with confronting Muqtada al-Sadr in the south and the Shia, we brought the extremists into mainstream. So it was a lost opportunity.

ZAHN: Well, you just can't leave this guy alone, can you? I know there's a fear about what the repercussions of arrest would and the repercussions of killing him, but you can't ignore him, can you?

FANDY: Well, now we don't have a choice except to confront him, because right now I think this guy, although we don't like him, but he is legitimate in the Iraqi eyes, he has between 3,000 and 10,000 troops under his command. He's a charismatic leader. He's a son of a Shia martyr and a family. He lost two sons and his father to Saddam's tyranny, so he's legitimate.

And he's young and appeals to the youth and the downtrodden of the Shia. So he's a very dangerous element, but we have no choice but to make sure that we end that rebellion.

ZAHN: So what is the answer here, sir?

FANDY: Well, the answer here Grand Ayatollah Sistani. This is the man who commands the religious word among the Shia community. And thus far, he's still with the Americans. He did not support Muqtada al-Sadr. And I think we should work with the larger Shia community to isolate Muqtada al-Sadr and instead of repeating the mistakes of Fallujah.

ZAHN: Mamoun Fandy, thank you very much for being with us tonight.

FANDY: Thank you.

ZAHN: And we will be going back to Baghdad for a live update on the fighting in Ramadi, where a dozen Americans have died in action tonight.

Also coming up, Condoleezza Rice in the spotlight this week. We're going to look at how the national security adviser became one of the president's closest confidants.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Now we move on to what the U.S. needs to do to bring the situation under control in time for the June 30 power transfer.

We talked with Republican Senator John Warner of Virginia, who is chairman of the Armed Services Committee, and Senator Evan Bayh, Democrat from Indiana, who also serves on that committee. They joined us from Washington.

And I began by asking Senator Warner if he thinks the American public was misled about the number of troops it will take to get the job done.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN WARNER (R), VIRGINIA: Short answer, I do not.

I was in Iraq and Afghanistan just a short time, two, three weeks ago and talked with the military commanders. Paula, this is a time when things get tough, when we here at home should remain calm and confident in the decision ability of the commander in chief, our president, the military on-scene commanders, and most especially, do everything we can to show our confidence and trust and backing for the men and women in that fight and their families back here at home.

ZAHN: Senator Bayh, under consideration is a plan by the administration to actually increase troop strength. What do you think the likelihood is that of happening and does that really reflect negatively on the troops or does it mean, look, we've got to change our strategy?

SEN. EVAN BAYH (D), INDIANA: Well, it doesn't reflect negatively on the troops at all, Paula.

I think it reflects upon the magnitude of the task that we're undertaking and the fact there may have been naivete involved originally in assessing just how big a job this was going to be. We may well need more troops to bring real security in the Sunni part of Iraq and now with some problems in the Shia area. And we're never going to have a successful democracy there or a functioning economy as long as you have this sort of lawlessness at work.

So it may well be that we need some additional troop strength.

ZAHN: Senator Warner, do you think this administration underestimated the strength of the insurgency that we're seeing play out now?

WARNER: It's not the administration. We have relied on our troop commanders. And our committee, the Armed Services Committee, has monitored this steadily. We still have confidence in these commanders. The commanders, General Abizaid, has said as recently as I think again today and yesterday, he's looking at options, but at this point in time he has not called for additional forces.

We here at home have just got to put trust and confidence in those military commanders. And I've been around them for many, many years in this business. And Abizaid in my judgment is one of the finest.

ZAHN: Senator Bayh, do you think the military now is taking the right steps, using the right strategy to defuse this violence that we're now seeing?

BAYH: Paula, I have great confidence in our military, the general, the troops, and all the rest, but we can't ask them to do the impossible.

In attempting to establish a democracy in a country with no history of one and a lot of lawless elements, I think it's better to err on the side of having more troops and more security, rather than less. And I think we can say that without expressing any lack of confidence whatsoever in our commanders and our troops on the ground. They're wonderful. We just need to give them the strength to get the job done.

ZAHN: Senator Warner, two of your colleagues, Senators Biden and Lugar, are now saying the June 30 handover date is premature, that it's not realistic. What do you think?

WARNER: It is my firm judgment that the president is right. We must turn over sovereignty on June 30. Otherwise, it would be a signal that would effect our credibility among the Iraqi people, the bordering nations, and others. The sooner they get their sovereignty, the sooner they can take a greater role in putting down this insurrection.

ZAHN: Senator Bayh, you have been exposed to this very heated debate. Do you think it's possible that the June 30 deadline will be met?

BAYH: Paula, I think it's possible, but I agree with Senator Biden and Senator Lugar. We need to have a national conversation about this.

I agree with what Senator Warner just said. The sooner we can turn over sovereignty to the Iraqi people, the better, but only if it works. And if there is simply not an entity there capable of taking control of the country and providing security, the last thing we want is the place to fall apart. So I think we need to honestly assess whether this will be a successful transition. If it can be successful, then by all means, go ahead.

But rather than just rely upon an arbitrary date or a symbolic transfer, we need to make sure that it's going to be a lasting one.

ZAHN: Senators Bayh and Warner, thanks so much for both for your perspectives this evening.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And, in a moment, we're going to take you back to Baghdad for a live update on the fighting there in Iraq.

Also tonight, she went off to college when she was just 15. Now she's one of the president's closest advisers. As she faces the 9/11 Commission on Thursday, we're going to look at the personal side of Condoleezza Rice.

Also, the buzz about John Kerry choice for a running mate. We'll look at what names are in the air.

And tomorrow, being outsourced is bad enough, but can you imagine being laid off and told you have to train your overseas replacement?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back. Here is what you need to know right now at the bottom of the hour.

One Pentagon official calls it the badlands. And U.S. Marines have been fighting and dying there today. Iraqi insurgents have launched a large-scale attack against U.S. forces in the western city of Ramadi. At least 12 Marines have been killed, making it one of the deadliest days since major combat ended last May.

Senior international correspondent Walt Rodgers joins us now live from Baghdad with more details.

Good evening, Walter.

RODGERS: Hello, Paula.

This represents yet another revolt against the American military operation. It is, as you said, in Ramadi, 60 miles west of Baghdad in the so-called Sunni Muslim triangle. That has been the epicenter of resistance to the American military occupation for the past year. But the revolt in Ramadi is particularly audacious.

Upwards of 100 Iraqi insurgents, former members of the Baathist Party and former soldiers in the Iraqi army stormed several government buildings in Ramadi. This is the Marine sector of responsibility. The Marines were called in. There was savage street-to-street fighting, the worst kind of fighting, because it is at night and the Marines are trying to retake those buildings in unfamiliar ground, unfamiliar territory.

Twelve Marines have been killed, perhaps more. Upwards of 20 Marines injured. The casualties for the Iraqis are said to be much higher. The fighting goes on and it's going to be a while perhaps before Ramadi is stabilized -- Paula.

ZAHN: Walter Rodgers, thanks so much for the update. And as more details become available, we will share them with you.

We turn our attention now to Thursday. That is when Condoleezza Rice testifies before the 9/11 commission, where she will be speaking in her official role as national security adviser. But she has also become known as a close friend and confidante of President Bush. She has made a remarkable journey from her youth in the Jim Crow South to high-profile position in the White House. Those who know her say her success has a lot to do with her parents, who always expected her to be ahead of the rest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CONNIE RICE, COUSIN: They wanted the world. They wanted Condoleezza to be free of any kind of shackles, mentally or physically, and they wanted her to own the world.

ZAHN (voice-over): Born in 1954 in Birmingham, Alabama, Condoleezza was raised by two educated parents in the segregated South.

RICE: And they simply ignored -- ignored -- the larger culture that said, You're second-class, you're black, you don't count, you have no power.

ZAHN: Her ambitious parents pushed he to excel. Piano lessons at age 3, a champion-level figure skater in her teens.

RICE: It wasn't joyless, but there was -- it was just an unspoken edict. You succeeded and you did well in school. And once you start out that way, you don't know any different.

ZAHN: When most kids were just settling into high school, Rice graduated early and enrolled in college as a music major. She was just 15 years old, on her way, she thought, to becoming a concert pianist.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I lacked virtuoso talent and I hated to practice, and I realized that if I continued with music, I was destined for a career not at Carnegie Hall but in piano bars or perhaps teaching 13-year-olds to murder Beethoven. So instead of studying Russian composers, I decided to study Russian generals.

ZAHN: A life-altering decision that led her to a Ph.D. and professorship by age 27. At 34, she was tapped by President Bush, Sr., to be his deputy director of Soviet affairs, forming the foundation of a relationship with the Bush family. The president told reporters Rice taught him everything he knew about the Soviet Union. That student-teacher relationship would continue with his son, who tapped Rice to be the first-ever female national security adviser.

GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome my dear friend, Dr. Condi Rice.

ZAHN: More than an adviser, Rice spends most weekends with the president and first family at Camp David and long periods at the Bush ranch in Crawford, Texas. In the White House, she is just stationed down the hall from the Oval Office, and some say the two have a closer relationship than almost any other president and national security adviser.

IVO DAALDER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: There will be issues discussed, from education to race policy and others, that normally would not be discussed between national security adviser and the president.

ZAHN: Especially, it seemed, after 9/11. Rice was at the president's side every day during briefings, reportedly becoming known by her staff as the "warrior princess." Not surprising for the young girl from Alabama who was raised to be the best, to be in the spotlight, now with the weight of a presidency and a decade-long friendship resting on her shoulders.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Now we look more deeply into Condoleezza Rice and her role in the White House. For that we turn to her long-time friend, Kiron Skinner, professor of international relations at Carnegie Mellon University and co-editor of the book, "Reagan: A Life in Letters." She joins us now from San Francisco. Good of you to be with us. Welcome.

KIRON SKINNER, FRIEND OF CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Hi. I'm having a bit of trouble hearing you. Can you hear me?

ZAHN: OK. We can hear you beautifully. Let me see if you can hear my first question. Let -- OK, well, I'll try it. Why do you think the current President Bush trusts Condoleezza Rice so much?

SKINNER: I think that the trust really grows from the fact that they have a deep intellectual connection that has been missed in many of the discussions about their relationship. I think they have a fundamental understanding of the connection between power and principle and American foreign policy, something that is uniquely American, bringing together realism and moralism. And I think that brings them together in a unique way.

ZAHN: How dependent upon her is the president? SKINNER: Can you speak up a little bit, Paula? I'm having trouble hearing you on this end.

ZAHN: How much does the president depend on her advice and her direction?

SKINNER: I think -- you know, I haven't been privy for their personal relationship at that level that you're speaking, but I can say that Condi is extremely articulate and loyal, knowledgeable. She studies issues in great depth. And I think that breeds the confidence that he has in her. And again, I think it really is this intellectual connection, understanding that both political realism and morality and foreign policy have always been a part of how the U.S. has projected itself to the outside world.

ZAHN: What makes your friend tick?

SKINNER: I think in this particular job right now that Condi is really driven by her dedication and feeling duty-bound as a public servant to help protect the country. And in all of the activities that have been going on around here in the last 10 days or so, I think she's keeping the long-term view of making the United States a safer place, and that's what's keeping her going and making her tick, as you say.

ZAHN: Give us some insights as to how she is getting ready to prepare for her testimony on Thursday?

SKINNER: You know, I've been asked that question, and I spoke with her a few days ago, and she sounded upbeat. And she said that she was really prepared and ready to testify and looked forward to it. My sense is that her preparation has really been done already. Since September 11, if you look at the full range of speeches and interviews that she has given about fighting terror, about securing the country, about America's goals and revised priorities since September 11, I think you have the body of what she will say on Thursday, although there will be more specific questions and she will lay out a more detailed case...

ZAHN: Sure.

SKINNER: ... in that more formal setting.

ZAHN: And we also know she'll come under fire. We saw a preview of that when Richard Clarke took her on in a very aggressive way. He's suggesting that...

SKINNER: Right.

ZAHN: ... in spite of what the Clinton transition team told her, that she didn't take seriously enough the threat they said the United States faced from al Qaeda.

SKINNER: Well, there are a couple points -- and I'm glad that you mentioned this, Paula -- that I should mention here. One -- and I think, again, it's been missed in all of the fog of discussion that's been going on about what the administration did or did not do, what the Clinton administration did or did not do. First of all, strategic doctrines typically arise out of an external shock, and we've had a long period of shocks coming related to terrorism. If you look back to the Carter presidency, the Iranian hostage crisis, the Lebanon hostage crisis under Reagan, then the U.S. Embassy bombings in the 1990s. But the biggest shock of all was September 11...

ZAHN: Sure.

SKINNER: ... on our own soil, and that led to all of the various pieces of fighting terror coming together. And I think that that's been missed...

ZAHN: All right...

SKINNER: ... that we really needed something to bring us together in that way, and I think it's now happening.

ZAHN: We have to leave it there this evening. Kiron Skinner, thank you very much for your time tonight.

SKINNER: Thank you.

ZAHN: Next, we turn to presidential politics, and the great guessing game is heating up now. Who will John Kerry pick as his running mate? And a husband and wife brutally murdered, their 17- year-old son tricked, he says, into confessing. We're going to tell you about new evidence in his battle for a second trial.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: What is Senator John Kerry's most important decision in his battle for the presidency? It will be the selection of a running mate. But will Kerry make an obvious choice or think out of the box? National correspondent Kelly Wallace has been looking into that question.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A playful John Kerry in Ohio, telling reporters they can keep asking, but...

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have said again and again I'm not making any comments at all, none whatsoever.

WALLACE: That has not stopped the guessing game nor the public auditioning. John Edwards in North Dakota...

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), NORTH CAROLINA: We need to outsource George Bush and this administration!

WALLACE: Dick Gephardt in New Hampshire.

REP. DICK GEPHARDT (D), MISSOURI: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Well, we just need to win. WALLACE: Democratic sources tout the former candidates as two of the strongest contenders. The North Carolina senator has rock star appeal and gives Kerry a boost in the South. In the minus column, inexperienced and a belief he could outshine the nominee. The Missouri congressman's strengths: He won't outdazzle Kerry and helps in Missouri and other Midwestern states. But he's not a proven vote getter and certainly not a new face.

When it comes to governors, two names top the list, Democratic observers say, New Mexico's Bill Richardson, who could energize the Latino vote but could be too focused on his own political future. Iowa's Tom Vilsack is true Washington outsider, but he's also an unknown. A well-known getting the most votes within the Kerry campaign is Republican Senator John McCain. The Arizona maverick would generate tremendous excitement and help attract Republican and independent voters, but there are drawbacks. The senators hold opposite views on issues such as abortion rights, and McCain might compete for the spotlight. McCain has told CNN he's not interested.

QUESTION: ... you're not interested?

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I am categorically telling you that.

WALLACE: There are many more names, among them Florida's two senators and the female governors of Arizona and Kansas.

(on camera): Beyond the names is the question of when. It appears that Senator Kerry may decide to make an announcement unusually early, in May, to get some extra help on the campaign trail countering the Bush-Cheney attacks.

Kelly Wallace, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: So who else is in the running for the second spot on the Democratic ticket, and who could best help John Kerry win the White House in November? "CROSSFIRE's James Carville, Robert Novak join us from Washington with some thoughts on that.

Always good to see you, gentlemen. Welcome.

JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Thank you.

BOB NOVAK, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Thank you.

ZAHN: So Bob, how real is the John McCain buzz?

NOVAK: Zero. It's the most ridiculous thing I ever saw. It's bad journalism to talk about it. He's not going to be asked. If he were asked, he would say no. He's pro-life, hawkish in Iraq. He is a conservative on most issues. He doesn't like George W. Bush much, but a lot of people don't. But it's just absolutely insane to waste anybody's time talking about it.

ZAHN: So James Carville, do you see any way he's going to asked?

CARVILLE: Well, I think what people are saying is, is that this administration's policies are such a disaster for this country that maybe Kerry ought to go beyond traditional politics because the problems that we have with the deficit and Iraq and foreign policy health care are so enormous that by reaching across to somebody like John McCain, it might send a signal that we're really taking these tremendous problems seriously.

Look, do I think it's going to happen? Probably not. But I think that this administration has dug this country into a hole that it's going to take some kind of a bold step on Kerry's part to show people that, you know, he's really going to change the policies that we have here in Washington.

ZAHN: So Bob, Kerry says he's going to make his choice some time within the next eight weeks, particularly to help his fund-raising efforts. Does this strategy make sense to you?

NOVAK: Yes, I think getting it out of the way is a good idea. They could have somebody out there as a hatchet man, going against Dick Cheney. Dick Cheney has come out of his undisclosed location and is campaigning hard. But this is something that we in journalism, we like to talk about and cogitate about, but it really has very little impact on presidential elections.

ZAHN: What about that, James?

CARVILLE: Well, I think there's a lot of wisdom to what Bob says. He's covered a lot of races. I do know that Senator Kerry has placed James Johnson, who's just an extremely talented and thorough guy, in charge of this process, and I suspect it'll be orderly and -- my guess is we might be surprised by somebody that comes out of there. But I don't know.

ZAHN: James said that the John Kerry may have a surprise up his sleeve. Who could he put on the ticket that you actually think could generate some heat and some interest and some excitement?

NOVAK: Well, I would suggest Al Sharpton would really be a terrific choice.

ZAHN: Do you say that in jest?

NOVAK: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: I don't -- I don't think there's going to be any particular surprises. They come up with Robert Rubin, the former secretary of treasury, and to quote George W. Bush, bring him on. I think he'd be a -- he'd be a kind of a silly candidate.

But let me repeat, Paula, I don't think these candidates hurt anybody. I think Dan Quayle was one of the least inspired choices and didn't prevent George W. Bush from beating -- I mean, George senior Bush from beating Michael Dukakis. I think the smartest thing he can do to is get one of those Florida senators, Bob Graham or Bill Nelson, on the ticket for the chance they might carry Florida because I think John Kerry's going to have to carry Florida to get elected.

ZAHN: James, who's your choice?

CARVILLE: My choice is John Kerry's choice. Wherever he leads, I shall follow.

NOVAK: Oh, boy! Oh, boy!

ZAHN: Where did you get this gratitude, generous gene tonight, James? Where did that come from?

WALLACE: Well, it's not -- it's not a generous gene, it's...

NOVAK: It's his hat -- it's his political hat gene.

CARVILLE: Yes. Well, look, I'm a Kerry man. I'm a good Democrat.

ZAHN: All right. James Carville, the hack gene intact, so says Rob Novak.

WALLACE: Always there!

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Hack, hack!

ZAHN: Bob, thanks.

NOVAK: Thank you.

ZAHN: Have a good night.

WALLACE: Thank you so much. Bye-bye.

ZAHN: Coming up, we're going to have the story of a man battling for a second chance. Charged with killing his parents when he was just 17, he has said he was tricked into confessing. Could some new evidence win him a new trial?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: We turn now to a murder case that may raise troubling questions about how police interrogate suspects. At the center, a man who was 17 when he was accused of killing his parents, who is hoping that new evidence will get him a new trial. Senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin gives us the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST (voice-over): For the past 14 years, Martin Tankleff insisted he didn't kill his parents, never slashed his mother's throat, never brutally attacked his father inside their Long Island home.

MARTIN TANKLEFF: Plain and simple, I absolutely did not kill my parents.

TOOBIN: And now he's hired a former New York City police detective who says he can prove it.

JAY SALPETER, FORMER NYPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: It's an amazing exhibit of poor police work, of a case of rush to judgment.

TOOBIN: Tankleff was convicted in 1990 after police told the jury the teenager confessed to the murders, a confession never recorded on tape. The detective Tankleff hired says that confession was coerced. There was no forensic evidence linking Tankleff to the crime and that another witness, ex-convict Glenn Harris, gave Tankleff's attorneys a signed statement that he drove the getaway car for those he says are the real killers.

SALPETER: Tell me what Glenn Harris has to hide. Glenn Harris is coming forward. I don't know too many people that just admit or step -- you know, come forward and admit that they were involved in a murder.

TOOBIN: Tankleff's lawyers want a new trial and say Harris will testify if granted immunity in the case. Prosecutors say Harris told them he'll take the 5th. Still, Tankleff's relatives are standing by him.

NORMAN TANKLEFF, MARTIN'S UNCLE: We have believed in Marty's innocence from the very first day.

TOOBIN: Tankleff's lawyers will file new motions to reopen the case next week.

Jeffrey Toobin, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Joining us now, lawyers on both sides of the case. With me here tonight, Suffolk County assistant district attorney Leonard Lato, and in Washington tonight, Martin Tankleff's attorney, Barry Pollack. Welcome to you both.

Barry, I'm going to start with you this evening. If Glenn Harris says he can prove that someone -- that he actually drove the getaway car for the real killers, why is he telling us this now?

BARRY POLLACK, MARTIN TANKLEFF'S ATTORNEY: Well, it's been bothering Glenn Harris for years that he didn't come forward with this information, but obviously, he was concerned about implicating himself. What's very exciting and interesting about the new information is that it doesn't stand alone. It's not just Glenn Harris's word. His statement fits together perfectly with a lot of the other evidence that's been developed in the case.

ZAHN: What other evidence is that? POLLACK: Well, specifically, Mr. Harris implicates another individual that he says he drove to the crime scene. That individual has confessed that he was, in fact, involved in the murders. And he's confessed not just to one person but to at least four people on multiple occasions.

ZAHN: Do you not have an obligation, when you have a man sitting in prison who faces another potentially 36 years in prison, to reexamine this case?

LEONARD LATO, SUFFOLK CO. ASST. DISTRICT ATTORNEY: We do have an obligation, and that's exactly what I did. And over the course of three months, I spoke to some 24 witnesses, both people who corroborated the version of events put forth by the defense and people who obviously contradicted it.

ZAHN: What about what Barry is sharing with us this evening?

LATO: Well, I mean, you know, he's an advocate and he's doing a good job and he's a fine attorney, but a lot of the things that he said I take issue with, and I don't see it the same way he does.

ZAHN: Do you believe that Glenn Harris can prove that he drove the getaway car for what he describes as the real killers?

LATO: Not only don't I believe that he can prove it, but the problem with Mr. Harris is he's declined to speak with us. Whatever reason he had for coming forward initially, he's changed his mind. I attempted to speak with Mr. Harris. I was very interested in what he had to say, but he told me that he would not speak to me without a lawyer. I was after his lawyer for many weeks. Will Mr. Harris sit down and speak with me? And at the very end, the day my papers were due, the lawyer sent me a fax saying Mr. Harris will not even meet with me unless he's granted immunity, which no rational prosecutor would ever do to someone he's never spoken with.

ZAHN: How do you reconcile that, Barry?

POLLACK: Well, he doesn't need to be granted immunity, meaning that he's free from being prosecuted. What Mr. Lato knows as an experienced prosecutor, he can be granted something that's called use immunity, which means that we can get the benefit of his testimony. What we have asked for is a public hearing, a day in court where we get to hear from Mr. Harris -- and that's entirely up to Mr. Lato -- and get to hear from all of the other witnesses that have come forward.

ZAHN: How far do you plan to take this, Barry?

POLLACK: Well, we plan to take it as far as we need to in order to get the truth to come out, in order to free Marty Tankleff. He's an innocent man who's been in prison for 14 years for a crime he didn't commit.

ZAHN: Leonard Lato, what are the chances that he'll get a new case? LATO: Well, I mean, that's up to the judge. I don't think the chances are very good, as long as Mr. Harris declines to come forward because with Mr. Harris out of the picture, there really is nothing new. The whole new evidence, according to the defense, is Mr. Harris. And I think Mr. Pollack is mistaken because the lawyer specifically spoke to me that Harris would not speak with me unless he was granted transactional immunity, not use immunity, that Mr. Pollack says. And it's in a letter.

ZAHN: Well, it's a fascinating case that certainly is getting a lot of attention here. Thank you for looking at it with us tonight, Leonard Lato, Barry Pollack.

LATO: Thank you.

POLLACK: Thank you.

ZAHN: And we do want to mention that we contacted retired detective James McCready about the case. He had this response. Quote, "If they want to retry this case, fine by me. Nothing's going to change. Martin Tankleff will still be found guilty. The jury weighed the evidence and they convicted him."

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Before we go, we wanted to bring you up to date on our top story tonight. Pentagon officials say as many as 12 U.S. Marines have died in a large-scale attack by Iraqi insurgents in the city of Ramadi, just west of Baghdad. Reports from the battlefield and Central Command indicate that a force of fewer than 100 insurgents seized several government buildings. More than 20 other Marines are reported injured. Please stay with CNN for all of the latest details.

Thanks so much for being with us tonight. We'll be back same time, same place tomorrow night. Then on Thursday, a special hour on Condoleezza Rice's testimony before the 9/11 commission.

Thanks again for joining us tonight. Have a good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 6, 2004 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us tonight. I'm Paula Zahn.
It is Tuesday, April 6, 2004.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): Tonight, a major attack against U.S. forces in Iraq, as Marines battle insurgents in the city of Ramadi. At least a dozen Marines are reported dead.

Behind bars for nearly 14 years for murdering his parents, this man still claims a detective tricked him into confessing. Does he serve a new trial.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: All that and more ahead tonight, but, first, here's what you need to know right now.

In the western Iraqi city Ramadi, U.S. Marines came under a fierce attack tonight. A dozen Americans are reported dead. Ramadi is inside the Sunni Triangle, where so much of the resistance of the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq has happened. We have team coverage tonight, Walt Rodgers in Baghdad, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, Suzanne Malveaux at the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas.

We get started tonight with Walter Rodgers -- good evening, Walter.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Paula.

The Marines are facing very different fighting in Ramadi, about 60 miles west of Baghdad, difficult because it is night fighting, it is street to street, and the Marines are fighting in unfamiliar territory. What's happening is the revolt against the American military occupation has spread and expanded. In Ramadi, what happened about three or four hours ago, upwards of 100 Sunni Muslim insurgents began storming government buildings in the town Ramadi. That's the Marine sector of responsibility. They were called in.

It is a pitched battle, savage fighting. We're told that upwards of 12 U.S. Marines have been killed there alone. The numbers of wounded go higher than that. Casualties by the Iraqis are said to be even higher, that is, many more Iraqi dead. It's believed the opposition is former members of Saddam Hussein's Baathist party, former members of the Iraqi army.

Elsewhere in Iraq, and this is a two-fronted revolt, in the Sunni Triangle, like Ramadi and Fallujah, elsewhere, we are also seeing considerable fighting in Fallujah. There, the Marines are fighting to try to establish recontrol of that city. They lost control of Fallujah about a week ago Wednesday when the -- when four civilian contractors were brutally murdered and then their bodies were desecrated. Again, the United States was incensed by that.

The Marines have been poised to go back in. They're there for two days inside of Fallujah now. The fighting is again intense there as well. Like Ramadi, Fallujah is part of the Sunni Triangle. The Marines are fighting street to street there.

The other front of the revolt against the U.S. military occupation is in the Shiite South. That includes elements of Baghdad as well, but an-Najaf, there's been fighting there, and also, the other coalition forces, the British are facing trouble in Amara, again the Shiite uprising. Also, the Italians are facing trouble in Nasiriyah, more fighting there, and Ukrainian troops in Kut. Not a good day for the coalition -- Paula.

ZAHN: Walter Rodgers, thank so much for the update.

Let's turn to the Pentagon now for the very latest from there.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre now joins us.

What is the latest from there, Jamie?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest from here is that this outbreak of fighting all across Iraq is threatening to make this the deadliest day since the end of major combat in Iraq.

When you add up the casualties of the Marines at Ramadi, which we are told that as many as 12 killed and more than 20 wounded, along with casualties from Fallujah, where five Marines were killed today and some other isolated killings across the country, it's likely to exceed the 19 killed in one day that was the deadliest day back on November 15.

We are told that this fighting in Ramadi was apparently an attack by insurgents against the Marines and against -- taking over some buildings in what was called the governor's compound area. The Marines moved back in to take those buildings back and they inflicted heavy casualties, as well as taking them. They also were told -- had damage to a Bradley Fighting Vehicle and an M1-A1 tank, an indication of how fierce the fighting was.

This comes as the Pentagon is trying to say that what's happening in Iraq is manageable with the number of troops they have on the ground. And they're continuing to insist at this point they don't need to send more troops. It also came on a day in which a close associate of Osama bin Laden, Musab al-Zarqawi, was heard in an audiotape posted on an Islamist Web site making threats against the coalition authority provisional leader, Paul Bremer, as well as General Abizaid, the U.S. central commander.

In a translation made by CNN, Zarqawi is seen, is heard to say -- quote -- "We will hunt them like birds. We will cut off ever road from them. We will kill them" -- a threat from al-Zarqawi. And according to CNN's own experts, they believe this tape is authentic -- Paula.

ZAHN: Jamie McIntyre, thank you so much.

Now for the Bush administration's reaction to today's grim developments in Iraq, White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux joins us tonight from the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas.

What are you hearing from there, Suzanne?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paula, President Bush is at his ranch. He's getting constant updates about what is happening on the ground in Iraq, a White House spokesman reiterating what the president has said for days and weeks now. This is a White House that will not be intimidated by violence, that official saying this administration remains committed to finishing the job in Iraq.

It is very clear from what the generals and commanders have said that the U.S. will respond in the time and fashion of our choosing. Administration sources tell us that President Bush will meet with British Prime Minister Tony Blair next Friday at the White House, but those sources saying this is a meeting that was set up weeks ago, not reaction to the violence we've seen, the chaos in the last 72 hours in Iraq.

But having said that, administration sources say this is going to be the top priority of their talks. They're going to talk about the strategy of returning power to the Iraqi people. They will also talk about how to work with the U.N. to make sure that is a workable, functioning body that can handle the task, and also the importance of meet that June 30 deadline, that that is something that they plan on sticking to.

President Bush earlier today spoke in general terms about the U.S. strategy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're not going to be intimidated by thugs or assassins. We're not going to cut and run from the people who long for freedom, because you know what? We understand a free Iraq is an historic opportunity to help change the world to be more peaceful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And administration officials say they're going to stick with that deadlines, that this is a political transition, it's not a military transition. That means U.S. forces are going to remain on the ground for some time -- Paula.

ZAHN: Suzanne Malveaux, Jamie McIntyre, Walter Rodgers, thank for you all your live updates.

And now we're going to try to put all this fighting in Iraq into focus tonight. We're going to bring in our own CNN military analyst, Brigadier General David Grange. He joins us tonight from Oak Brook, Illinois.

Welcome, sir.

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you.

ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit more about this two-fronted revolt that U.S. forces now face in Iraq. Do you believe these revolts are connected?

GRANGE: They may be. I don't think so. I believe that right now they just have to be coincidental because of the warrant for the Shiite leader at the same time going in to regain control of Fallujah.

But it could be a loose alliance because -- and both of these insurgent forces, the common enemy is the coalition, and so there may be a loose coalition between them for convenience. They could turn on each other at a later date.

ZAHN: If there is a loose alliance, what does that mean? How much trouble are U.S. troops in?

GRANGE: I don't think it's as grim as some of the reports say. I think that it's severe fighting, don't get me wrong. Combat to anybody that is involved, even if it's with one other person, can be severe in your own mind.

But I think that it's a -- the coordinated attack shows some more audacity, that they're trying to do a coordinated effort throughout different parts of the country, but I don't think that it's going to sustain itself. I think it will be whipped after a bit here.

ZAHN: Let's take a look at a map now that shows the Sunni Triangle, and I want you to help us all understand tonight why this is such a critical piece of territory for U.S. forces.

GRANGE: Well, since ground combat maneuver operations ended, it's always been an area that was very loyal to Saddam and his lieutenants. And it's where people continue to resist the transfer of the dictatorship to some type of democratic governance.

And so the tribes that supported Saddam from this area, and a lot of these people faded back into the woodwork, Fedayeen and other insurgent types that support -- well, insurgents now, but those that supported Saddam in earlier days, and so they have nothing to do except to pick up an AK-47 and fight. And that's what you have. You have these people now coming together, a little more bold than in the past, to take on the coalition.

ZAHN: Was there anything you could have done prospectively in a military plan that would stop these people from blurring in with the general population?

GRANGE: Well, a couple things that could have happened, but, again, as you look back, it's always much easier when you're on the objective right after a fight.

However, what you could have done, maybe, is got rid of the weapons a little bit faster. Now, they destroyed tons of weapons, don't get me wrong, but this place, Iraq, is full of weaponry, and obviously it's still full of it or it's being brought in by somebody.

The other is to get people some jobs right away, whatever they are, planting desert roses along the highway, something, to keep them off the streets, hang out, young men with nothing to do. That's always people available to do something bad and you want to get rid of that. So maybe those couple things.

The other is, if someone is wanted for a crime, even if it's dangerous, you got to go after them early on. Once they build up a militia, especially if a militia is not authorized in this present-day occupation, then it should have been nipped early. And now we're living with a 3,000-man force down south with the Shiites, as an example.

ZAHN: General, I just need a quick yes or no here. Do you believe ultimately more U.S. troops will be needed on the ground in Iraq?

GRANGE: Yes, mainly to show resolve, to show that it can be done and for psychological effect, yes.

ZAHN: General David Grange, as always, thank you for your candor.

GRANGE: My pleasure.

ZAHN: The battle on the ground in Ramadi will only intensify the debate in Washington, how to get Iraq under control in time to hand over power in June.

And she grew up in the south during the time of segregation. We're going to look how Condoleezza Rice got from there to the White House as she gets ready to testify before the 9/11 Commission on Thursday.

And he was sent to prison as a teenager and has spent 14 years there for killing his parents. He says the detective tricked him into confessing, so will new evidence help get him a new trial?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: If you're just joining us, U.S. troops are enduring one of the deadliest days in Iraq since the toppling of Saddam Hussein's regime, Pentagon officials confirming an insurgent attack on the western city of Ramadi has left as many as 12 Marines dead, up to 20 Marines wounded. For more on this latest crisis in Iraq and the U.S. future there, let's go to our Washington bureau and Mamoun Fandy, senior fellow at the U.S. Institute for Peace.

Welcome, sir.

MAMOUN FANDY, SENIOR FELLOW, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: Thank you.

ZAHN: How much stronger do you think this insurgency movement can get?

FANDY: It can get very strong.

I think, in my assessment, this is the most dangerous turning point since the toppling of Saddam Hussein. It looks like the two- front war, as Walt Rodgers pointed out, from Fallujah, Ramadi, and the Sunni Triangle. And now the confrontation with Muqtada al-Sadr in the Shia region of the South makes that -- the word on the street would be that the Americans are up for grab, and that resistance is open, and you have the mix of Zarqawi again and al Qaeda, so the whole situation is getting very complicated.

ZAHN: Mr. Fandy, do you believe there is a loose alliance and that these two-front revolts are connected in some way?

FANDY: Well, I think there is a general sense practically that the Americans practically did not manage the situation well, and still is building on the shame that the Iraqis felt after the desecration of the American bodies. And instead they punished everybody in Fallujah, and then went after Muqtada al-Sadr.

So the whole idea there is that the Americans are on the run.

ZAHN: I'm not clear on what you are saying. What do you mean, build on the shame, that that was the mistake of the U.S. government?

FANDY: Well, the Iraqis, the general Iraqis felt tremendous shame of the desecration of the American bodies. So there was at least a political will amongst the general public that they would isolate the extreme Fallujans, if you will. But instead, with confronting Muqtada al-Sadr in the south and the Shia, we brought the extremists into mainstream. So it was a lost opportunity.

ZAHN: Well, you just can't leave this guy alone, can you? I know there's a fear about what the repercussions of arrest would and the repercussions of killing him, but you can't ignore him, can you?

FANDY: Well, now we don't have a choice except to confront him, because right now I think this guy, although we don't like him, but he is legitimate in the Iraqi eyes, he has between 3,000 and 10,000 troops under his command. He's a charismatic leader. He's a son of a Shia martyr and a family. He lost two sons and his father to Saddam's tyranny, so he's legitimate.

And he's young and appeals to the youth and the downtrodden of the Shia. So he's a very dangerous element, but we have no choice but to make sure that we end that rebellion.

ZAHN: So what is the answer here, sir?

FANDY: Well, the answer here Grand Ayatollah Sistani. This is the man who commands the religious word among the Shia community. And thus far, he's still with the Americans. He did not support Muqtada al-Sadr. And I think we should work with the larger Shia community to isolate Muqtada al-Sadr and instead of repeating the mistakes of Fallujah.

ZAHN: Mamoun Fandy, thank you very much for being with us tonight.

FANDY: Thank you.

ZAHN: And we will be going back to Baghdad for a live update on the fighting in Ramadi, where a dozen Americans have died in action tonight.

Also coming up, Condoleezza Rice in the spotlight this week. We're going to look at how the national security adviser became one of the president's closest confidants.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Now we move on to what the U.S. needs to do to bring the situation under control in time for the June 30 power transfer.

We talked with Republican Senator John Warner of Virginia, who is chairman of the Armed Services Committee, and Senator Evan Bayh, Democrat from Indiana, who also serves on that committee. They joined us from Washington.

And I began by asking Senator Warner if he thinks the American public was misled about the number of troops it will take to get the job done.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN WARNER (R), VIRGINIA: Short answer, I do not.

I was in Iraq and Afghanistan just a short time, two, three weeks ago and talked with the military commanders. Paula, this is a time when things get tough, when we here at home should remain calm and confident in the decision ability of the commander in chief, our president, the military on-scene commanders, and most especially, do everything we can to show our confidence and trust and backing for the men and women in that fight and their families back here at home.

ZAHN: Senator Bayh, under consideration is a plan by the administration to actually increase troop strength. What do you think the likelihood is that of happening and does that really reflect negatively on the troops or does it mean, look, we've got to change our strategy?

SEN. EVAN BAYH (D), INDIANA: Well, it doesn't reflect negatively on the troops at all, Paula.

I think it reflects upon the magnitude of the task that we're undertaking and the fact there may have been naivete involved originally in assessing just how big a job this was going to be. We may well need more troops to bring real security in the Sunni part of Iraq and now with some problems in the Shia area. And we're never going to have a successful democracy there or a functioning economy as long as you have this sort of lawlessness at work.

So it may well be that we need some additional troop strength.

ZAHN: Senator Warner, do you think this administration underestimated the strength of the insurgency that we're seeing play out now?

WARNER: It's not the administration. We have relied on our troop commanders. And our committee, the Armed Services Committee, has monitored this steadily. We still have confidence in these commanders. The commanders, General Abizaid, has said as recently as I think again today and yesterday, he's looking at options, but at this point in time he has not called for additional forces.

We here at home have just got to put trust and confidence in those military commanders. And I've been around them for many, many years in this business. And Abizaid in my judgment is one of the finest.

ZAHN: Senator Bayh, do you think the military now is taking the right steps, using the right strategy to defuse this violence that we're now seeing?

BAYH: Paula, I have great confidence in our military, the general, the troops, and all the rest, but we can't ask them to do the impossible.

In attempting to establish a democracy in a country with no history of one and a lot of lawless elements, I think it's better to err on the side of having more troops and more security, rather than less. And I think we can say that without expressing any lack of confidence whatsoever in our commanders and our troops on the ground. They're wonderful. We just need to give them the strength to get the job done.

ZAHN: Senator Warner, two of your colleagues, Senators Biden and Lugar, are now saying the June 30 handover date is premature, that it's not realistic. What do you think?

WARNER: It is my firm judgment that the president is right. We must turn over sovereignty on June 30. Otherwise, it would be a signal that would effect our credibility among the Iraqi people, the bordering nations, and others. The sooner they get their sovereignty, the sooner they can take a greater role in putting down this insurrection.

ZAHN: Senator Bayh, you have been exposed to this very heated debate. Do you think it's possible that the June 30 deadline will be met?

BAYH: Paula, I think it's possible, but I agree with Senator Biden and Senator Lugar. We need to have a national conversation about this.

I agree with what Senator Warner just said. The sooner we can turn over sovereignty to the Iraqi people, the better, but only if it works. And if there is simply not an entity there capable of taking control of the country and providing security, the last thing we want is the place to fall apart. So I think we need to honestly assess whether this will be a successful transition. If it can be successful, then by all means, go ahead.

But rather than just rely upon an arbitrary date or a symbolic transfer, we need to make sure that it's going to be a lasting one.

ZAHN: Senators Bayh and Warner, thanks so much for both for your perspectives this evening.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And, in a moment, we're going to take you back to Baghdad for a live update on the fighting there in Iraq.

Also tonight, she went off to college when she was just 15. Now she's one of the president's closest advisers. As she faces the 9/11 Commission on Thursday, we're going to look at the personal side of Condoleezza Rice.

Also, the buzz about John Kerry choice for a running mate. We'll look at what names are in the air.

And tomorrow, being outsourced is bad enough, but can you imagine being laid off and told you have to train your overseas replacement?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back. Here is what you need to know right now at the bottom of the hour.

One Pentagon official calls it the badlands. And U.S. Marines have been fighting and dying there today. Iraqi insurgents have launched a large-scale attack against U.S. forces in the western city of Ramadi. At least 12 Marines have been killed, making it one of the deadliest days since major combat ended last May.

Senior international correspondent Walt Rodgers joins us now live from Baghdad with more details.

Good evening, Walter.

RODGERS: Hello, Paula.

This represents yet another revolt against the American military operation. It is, as you said, in Ramadi, 60 miles west of Baghdad in the so-called Sunni Muslim triangle. That has been the epicenter of resistance to the American military occupation for the past year. But the revolt in Ramadi is particularly audacious.

Upwards of 100 Iraqi insurgents, former members of the Baathist Party and former soldiers in the Iraqi army stormed several government buildings in Ramadi. This is the Marine sector of responsibility. The Marines were called in. There was savage street-to-street fighting, the worst kind of fighting, because it is at night and the Marines are trying to retake those buildings in unfamiliar ground, unfamiliar territory.

Twelve Marines have been killed, perhaps more. Upwards of 20 Marines injured. The casualties for the Iraqis are said to be much higher. The fighting goes on and it's going to be a while perhaps before Ramadi is stabilized -- Paula.

ZAHN: Walter Rodgers, thanks so much for the update. And as more details become available, we will share them with you.

We turn our attention now to Thursday. That is when Condoleezza Rice testifies before the 9/11 commission, where she will be speaking in her official role as national security adviser. But she has also become known as a close friend and confidante of President Bush. She has made a remarkable journey from her youth in the Jim Crow South to high-profile position in the White House. Those who know her say her success has a lot to do with her parents, who always expected her to be ahead of the rest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CONNIE RICE, COUSIN: They wanted the world. They wanted Condoleezza to be free of any kind of shackles, mentally or physically, and they wanted her to own the world.

ZAHN (voice-over): Born in 1954 in Birmingham, Alabama, Condoleezza was raised by two educated parents in the segregated South.

RICE: And they simply ignored -- ignored -- the larger culture that said, You're second-class, you're black, you don't count, you have no power.

ZAHN: Her ambitious parents pushed he to excel. Piano lessons at age 3, a champion-level figure skater in her teens.

RICE: It wasn't joyless, but there was -- it was just an unspoken edict. You succeeded and you did well in school. And once you start out that way, you don't know any different.

ZAHN: When most kids were just settling into high school, Rice graduated early and enrolled in college as a music major. She was just 15 years old, on her way, she thought, to becoming a concert pianist.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I lacked virtuoso talent and I hated to practice, and I realized that if I continued with music, I was destined for a career not at Carnegie Hall but in piano bars or perhaps teaching 13-year-olds to murder Beethoven. So instead of studying Russian composers, I decided to study Russian generals.

ZAHN: A life-altering decision that led her to a Ph.D. and professorship by age 27. At 34, she was tapped by President Bush, Sr., to be his deputy director of Soviet affairs, forming the foundation of a relationship with the Bush family. The president told reporters Rice taught him everything he knew about the Soviet Union. That student-teacher relationship would continue with his son, who tapped Rice to be the first-ever female national security adviser.

GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome my dear friend, Dr. Condi Rice.

ZAHN: More than an adviser, Rice spends most weekends with the president and first family at Camp David and long periods at the Bush ranch in Crawford, Texas. In the White House, she is just stationed down the hall from the Oval Office, and some say the two have a closer relationship than almost any other president and national security adviser.

IVO DAALDER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: There will be issues discussed, from education to race policy and others, that normally would not be discussed between national security adviser and the president.

ZAHN: Especially, it seemed, after 9/11. Rice was at the president's side every day during briefings, reportedly becoming known by her staff as the "warrior princess." Not surprising for the young girl from Alabama who was raised to be the best, to be in the spotlight, now with the weight of a presidency and a decade-long friendship resting on her shoulders.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Now we look more deeply into Condoleezza Rice and her role in the White House. For that we turn to her long-time friend, Kiron Skinner, professor of international relations at Carnegie Mellon University and co-editor of the book, "Reagan: A Life in Letters." She joins us now from San Francisco. Good of you to be with us. Welcome.

KIRON SKINNER, FRIEND OF CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Hi. I'm having a bit of trouble hearing you. Can you hear me?

ZAHN: OK. We can hear you beautifully. Let me see if you can hear my first question. Let -- OK, well, I'll try it. Why do you think the current President Bush trusts Condoleezza Rice so much?

SKINNER: I think that the trust really grows from the fact that they have a deep intellectual connection that has been missed in many of the discussions about their relationship. I think they have a fundamental understanding of the connection between power and principle and American foreign policy, something that is uniquely American, bringing together realism and moralism. And I think that brings them together in a unique way.

ZAHN: How dependent upon her is the president? SKINNER: Can you speak up a little bit, Paula? I'm having trouble hearing you on this end.

ZAHN: How much does the president depend on her advice and her direction?

SKINNER: I think -- you know, I haven't been privy for their personal relationship at that level that you're speaking, but I can say that Condi is extremely articulate and loyal, knowledgeable. She studies issues in great depth. And I think that breeds the confidence that he has in her. And again, I think it really is this intellectual connection, understanding that both political realism and morality and foreign policy have always been a part of how the U.S. has projected itself to the outside world.

ZAHN: What makes your friend tick?

SKINNER: I think in this particular job right now that Condi is really driven by her dedication and feeling duty-bound as a public servant to help protect the country. And in all of the activities that have been going on around here in the last 10 days or so, I think she's keeping the long-term view of making the United States a safer place, and that's what's keeping her going and making her tick, as you say.

ZAHN: Give us some insights as to how she is getting ready to prepare for her testimony on Thursday?

SKINNER: You know, I've been asked that question, and I spoke with her a few days ago, and she sounded upbeat. And she said that she was really prepared and ready to testify and looked forward to it. My sense is that her preparation has really been done already. Since September 11, if you look at the full range of speeches and interviews that she has given about fighting terror, about securing the country, about America's goals and revised priorities since September 11, I think you have the body of what she will say on Thursday, although there will be more specific questions and she will lay out a more detailed case...

ZAHN: Sure.

SKINNER: ... in that more formal setting.

ZAHN: And we also know she'll come under fire. We saw a preview of that when Richard Clarke took her on in a very aggressive way. He's suggesting that...

SKINNER: Right.

ZAHN: ... in spite of what the Clinton transition team told her, that she didn't take seriously enough the threat they said the United States faced from al Qaeda.

SKINNER: Well, there are a couple points -- and I'm glad that you mentioned this, Paula -- that I should mention here. One -- and I think, again, it's been missed in all of the fog of discussion that's been going on about what the administration did or did not do, what the Clinton administration did or did not do. First of all, strategic doctrines typically arise out of an external shock, and we've had a long period of shocks coming related to terrorism. If you look back to the Carter presidency, the Iranian hostage crisis, the Lebanon hostage crisis under Reagan, then the U.S. Embassy bombings in the 1990s. But the biggest shock of all was September 11...

ZAHN: Sure.

SKINNER: ... on our own soil, and that led to all of the various pieces of fighting terror coming together. And I think that that's been missed...

ZAHN: All right...

SKINNER: ... that we really needed something to bring us together in that way, and I think it's now happening.

ZAHN: We have to leave it there this evening. Kiron Skinner, thank you very much for your time tonight.

SKINNER: Thank you.

ZAHN: Next, we turn to presidential politics, and the great guessing game is heating up now. Who will John Kerry pick as his running mate? And a husband and wife brutally murdered, their 17- year-old son tricked, he says, into confessing. We're going to tell you about new evidence in his battle for a second trial.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: What is Senator John Kerry's most important decision in his battle for the presidency? It will be the selection of a running mate. But will Kerry make an obvious choice or think out of the box? National correspondent Kelly Wallace has been looking into that question.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A playful John Kerry in Ohio, telling reporters they can keep asking, but...

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have said again and again I'm not making any comments at all, none whatsoever.

WALLACE: That has not stopped the guessing game nor the public auditioning. John Edwards in North Dakota...

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), NORTH CAROLINA: We need to outsource George Bush and this administration!

WALLACE: Dick Gephardt in New Hampshire.

REP. DICK GEPHARDT (D), MISSOURI: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Well, we just need to win. WALLACE: Democratic sources tout the former candidates as two of the strongest contenders. The North Carolina senator has rock star appeal and gives Kerry a boost in the South. In the minus column, inexperienced and a belief he could outshine the nominee. The Missouri congressman's strengths: He won't outdazzle Kerry and helps in Missouri and other Midwestern states. But he's not a proven vote getter and certainly not a new face.

When it comes to governors, two names top the list, Democratic observers say, New Mexico's Bill Richardson, who could energize the Latino vote but could be too focused on his own political future. Iowa's Tom Vilsack is true Washington outsider, but he's also an unknown. A well-known getting the most votes within the Kerry campaign is Republican Senator John McCain. The Arizona maverick would generate tremendous excitement and help attract Republican and independent voters, but there are drawbacks. The senators hold opposite views on issues such as abortion rights, and McCain might compete for the spotlight. McCain has told CNN he's not interested.

QUESTION: ... you're not interested?

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I am categorically telling you that.

WALLACE: There are many more names, among them Florida's two senators and the female governors of Arizona and Kansas.

(on camera): Beyond the names is the question of when. It appears that Senator Kerry may decide to make an announcement unusually early, in May, to get some extra help on the campaign trail countering the Bush-Cheney attacks.

Kelly Wallace, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: So who else is in the running for the second spot on the Democratic ticket, and who could best help John Kerry win the White House in November? "CROSSFIRE's James Carville, Robert Novak join us from Washington with some thoughts on that.

Always good to see you, gentlemen. Welcome.

JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Thank you.

BOB NOVAK, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Thank you.

ZAHN: So Bob, how real is the John McCain buzz?

NOVAK: Zero. It's the most ridiculous thing I ever saw. It's bad journalism to talk about it. He's not going to be asked. If he were asked, he would say no. He's pro-life, hawkish in Iraq. He is a conservative on most issues. He doesn't like George W. Bush much, but a lot of people don't. But it's just absolutely insane to waste anybody's time talking about it.

ZAHN: So James Carville, do you see any way he's going to asked?

CARVILLE: Well, I think what people are saying is, is that this administration's policies are such a disaster for this country that maybe Kerry ought to go beyond traditional politics because the problems that we have with the deficit and Iraq and foreign policy health care are so enormous that by reaching across to somebody like John McCain, it might send a signal that we're really taking these tremendous problems seriously.

Look, do I think it's going to happen? Probably not. But I think that this administration has dug this country into a hole that it's going to take some kind of a bold step on Kerry's part to show people that, you know, he's really going to change the policies that we have here in Washington.

ZAHN: So Bob, Kerry says he's going to make his choice some time within the next eight weeks, particularly to help his fund-raising efforts. Does this strategy make sense to you?

NOVAK: Yes, I think getting it out of the way is a good idea. They could have somebody out there as a hatchet man, going against Dick Cheney. Dick Cheney has come out of his undisclosed location and is campaigning hard. But this is something that we in journalism, we like to talk about and cogitate about, but it really has very little impact on presidential elections.

ZAHN: What about that, James?

CARVILLE: Well, I think there's a lot of wisdom to what Bob says. He's covered a lot of races. I do know that Senator Kerry has placed James Johnson, who's just an extremely talented and thorough guy, in charge of this process, and I suspect it'll be orderly and -- my guess is we might be surprised by somebody that comes out of there. But I don't know.

ZAHN: James said that the John Kerry may have a surprise up his sleeve. Who could he put on the ticket that you actually think could generate some heat and some interest and some excitement?

NOVAK: Well, I would suggest Al Sharpton would really be a terrific choice.

ZAHN: Do you say that in jest?

NOVAK: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: I don't -- I don't think there's going to be any particular surprises. They come up with Robert Rubin, the former secretary of treasury, and to quote George W. Bush, bring him on. I think he'd be a -- he'd be a kind of a silly candidate.

But let me repeat, Paula, I don't think these candidates hurt anybody. I think Dan Quayle was one of the least inspired choices and didn't prevent George W. Bush from beating -- I mean, George senior Bush from beating Michael Dukakis. I think the smartest thing he can do to is get one of those Florida senators, Bob Graham or Bill Nelson, on the ticket for the chance they might carry Florida because I think John Kerry's going to have to carry Florida to get elected.

ZAHN: James, who's your choice?

CARVILLE: My choice is John Kerry's choice. Wherever he leads, I shall follow.

NOVAK: Oh, boy! Oh, boy!

ZAHN: Where did you get this gratitude, generous gene tonight, James? Where did that come from?

WALLACE: Well, it's not -- it's not a generous gene, it's...

NOVAK: It's his hat -- it's his political hat gene.

CARVILLE: Yes. Well, look, I'm a Kerry man. I'm a good Democrat.

ZAHN: All right. James Carville, the hack gene intact, so says Rob Novak.

WALLACE: Always there!

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Hack, hack!

ZAHN: Bob, thanks.

NOVAK: Thank you.

ZAHN: Have a good night.

WALLACE: Thank you so much. Bye-bye.

ZAHN: Coming up, we're going to have the story of a man battling for a second chance. Charged with killing his parents when he was just 17, he has said he was tricked into confessing. Could some new evidence win him a new trial?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: We turn now to a murder case that may raise troubling questions about how police interrogate suspects. At the center, a man who was 17 when he was accused of killing his parents, who is hoping that new evidence will get him a new trial. Senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin gives us the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST (voice-over): For the past 14 years, Martin Tankleff insisted he didn't kill his parents, never slashed his mother's throat, never brutally attacked his father inside their Long Island home.

MARTIN TANKLEFF: Plain and simple, I absolutely did not kill my parents.

TOOBIN: And now he's hired a former New York City police detective who says he can prove it.

JAY SALPETER, FORMER NYPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: It's an amazing exhibit of poor police work, of a case of rush to judgment.

TOOBIN: Tankleff was convicted in 1990 after police told the jury the teenager confessed to the murders, a confession never recorded on tape. The detective Tankleff hired says that confession was coerced. There was no forensic evidence linking Tankleff to the crime and that another witness, ex-convict Glenn Harris, gave Tankleff's attorneys a signed statement that he drove the getaway car for those he says are the real killers.

SALPETER: Tell me what Glenn Harris has to hide. Glenn Harris is coming forward. I don't know too many people that just admit or step -- you know, come forward and admit that they were involved in a murder.

TOOBIN: Tankleff's lawyers want a new trial and say Harris will testify if granted immunity in the case. Prosecutors say Harris told them he'll take the 5th. Still, Tankleff's relatives are standing by him.

NORMAN TANKLEFF, MARTIN'S UNCLE: We have believed in Marty's innocence from the very first day.

TOOBIN: Tankleff's lawyers will file new motions to reopen the case next week.

Jeffrey Toobin, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Joining us now, lawyers on both sides of the case. With me here tonight, Suffolk County assistant district attorney Leonard Lato, and in Washington tonight, Martin Tankleff's attorney, Barry Pollack. Welcome to you both.

Barry, I'm going to start with you this evening. If Glenn Harris says he can prove that someone -- that he actually drove the getaway car for the real killers, why is he telling us this now?

BARRY POLLACK, MARTIN TANKLEFF'S ATTORNEY: Well, it's been bothering Glenn Harris for years that he didn't come forward with this information, but obviously, he was concerned about implicating himself. What's very exciting and interesting about the new information is that it doesn't stand alone. It's not just Glenn Harris's word. His statement fits together perfectly with a lot of the other evidence that's been developed in the case.

ZAHN: What other evidence is that? POLLACK: Well, specifically, Mr. Harris implicates another individual that he says he drove to the crime scene. That individual has confessed that he was, in fact, involved in the murders. And he's confessed not just to one person but to at least four people on multiple occasions.

ZAHN: Do you not have an obligation, when you have a man sitting in prison who faces another potentially 36 years in prison, to reexamine this case?

LEONARD LATO, SUFFOLK CO. ASST. DISTRICT ATTORNEY: We do have an obligation, and that's exactly what I did. And over the course of three months, I spoke to some 24 witnesses, both people who corroborated the version of events put forth by the defense and people who obviously contradicted it.

ZAHN: What about what Barry is sharing with us this evening?

LATO: Well, I mean, you know, he's an advocate and he's doing a good job and he's a fine attorney, but a lot of the things that he said I take issue with, and I don't see it the same way he does.

ZAHN: Do you believe that Glenn Harris can prove that he drove the getaway car for what he describes as the real killers?

LATO: Not only don't I believe that he can prove it, but the problem with Mr. Harris is he's declined to speak with us. Whatever reason he had for coming forward initially, he's changed his mind. I attempted to speak with Mr. Harris. I was very interested in what he had to say, but he told me that he would not speak to me without a lawyer. I was after his lawyer for many weeks. Will Mr. Harris sit down and speak with me? And at the very end, the day my papers were due, the lawyer sent me a fax saying Mr. Harris will not even meet with me unless he's granted immunity, which no rational prosecutor would ever do to someone he's never spoken with.

ZAHN: How do you reconcile that, Barry?

POLLACK: Well, he doesn't need to be granted immunity, meaning that he's free from being prosecuted. What Mr. Lato knows as an experienced prosecutor, he can be granted something that's called use immunity, which means that we can get the benefit of his testimony. What we have asked for is a public hearing, a day in court where we get to hear from Mr. Harris -- and that's entirely up to Mr. Lato -- and get to hear from all of the other witnesses that have come forward.

ZAHN: How far do you plan to take this, Barry?

POLLACK: Well, we plan to take it as far as we need to in order to get the truth to come out, in order to free Marty Tankleff. He's an innocent man who's been in prison for 14 years for a crime he didn't commit.

ZAHN: Leonard Lato, what are the chances that he'll get a new case? LATO: Well, I mean, that's up to the judge. I don't think the chances are very good, as long as Mr. Harris declines to come forward because with Mr. Harris out of the picture, there really is nothing new. The whole new evidence, according to the defense, is Mr. Harris. And I think Mr. Pollack is mistaken because the lawyer specifically spoke to me that Harris would not speak with me unless he was granted transactional immunity, not use immunity, that Mr. Pollack says. And it's in a letter.

ZAHN: Well, it's a fascinating case that certainly is getting a lot of attention here. Thank you for looking at it with us tonight, Leonard Lato, Barry Pollack.

LATO: Thank you.

POLLACK: Thank you.

ZAHN: And we do want to mention that we contacted retired detective James McCready about the case. He had this response. Quote, "If they want to retry this case, fine by me. Nothing's going to change. Martin Tankleff will still be found guilty. The jury weighed the evidence and they convicted him."

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Before we go, we wanted to bring you up to date on our top story tonight. Pentagon officials say as many as 12 U.S. Marines have died in a large-scale attack by Iraqi insurgents in the city of Ramadi, just west of Baghdad. Reports from the battlefield and Central Command indicate that a force of fewer than 100 insurgents seized several government buildings. More than 20 other Marines are reported injured. Please stay with CNN for all of the latest details.

Thanks so much for being with us tonight. We'll be back same time, same place tomorrow night. Then on Thursday, a special hour on Condoleezza Rice's testimony before the 9/11 commission.

Thanks again for joining us tonight. Have a good night.

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