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Paula Zahn Now

Bill Clinton Returns; Leaving Saudi Arabia

Aired June 21, 2004 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, he's back.

WILLIAM J. CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: How are you? Thank you for your service.

ZAHN: On TV.

CLINTON: To me, the whole battle was a badge of honor. I don't see it as a great stain.

ZAHN: On the newsstands. Bill Clinton, he's everywhere.

After the execution of Paul Johnson Jr., after the warnings for foreigners to get out, why is it so hard for this woman's husband to leave Saudi Arabia?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a matter of life and death.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Good evening. Welcome to a brand new week here. Thanks so much for joining us.

As Yogi Berra might say, Americans can be forgiven for feeling deja vu all over again. The man who had more comebacks than Elvis is taking center stage once again. Bill Clinton is doing one of the things he love best, making contact with the people face-to-face in a road trip to promote his nearly 1,000-page memoir, "My Life." And while this is the man who presided over the strongest economic expansion on record, who brought Israelis and Palestinians to the White House in a quest for peace and pulled the U.S. and its allies together for action in Bosnia and Kosovo, his scandals brought him back to the brink of being thrown out.

We begin with our national correspondent Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Bill Clinton is back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do I do? I just show up on Tuesday at 6:30?

WALLACE: A book launch unlike any in recent memory. Even his critics are curious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excited? I'm not excited, but I'm buying the book.

WALLACE: Plugs coming from the most unusual places.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I could tell you more of the story, but it's coming out in fine bookstores all over America.

(LAUGHTER)

WALLACE: And the media...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The former president.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: President Bill Clinton's memoirs.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Hit bookstores tomorrow.

WALLACE: ... can't get enough. The master politician.

CLINTON: I tell you the story as it happened to me.

WALLACE: In a high-velocity public relations campaign, not just to sell books, but to shine up his standing. He gets personal, recounting the moment he told wife Hillary about his affair with White House intern Monica Lewinsky.

CLINTON: I had a sleepless night and woke her up and sat down on the side of the bed and just told her. And it was awful, but I had to do it.

WALLACE: And he fires away at independent prosecutor Kenneth Starr.

CLINTON: There was nothing left but my personal failing. That's what people got for over $70 million. It was nothing but a big political operation designed to bring down the presidency.

WALLACE: Asked about Mr. Clinton's comments, Starr, in his first interview about the book, does not fire back.

KENNETH STARR, FORMER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: I would like to think we can soon close that chapter of permanently, but I understand the depth of his feelings. It was a very unpleasant period.

WALLACE: Bill Clinton has returned to center stage at a time when all eyes were expected to be on another Democrat. So will Mr. Clinton overshadow Mr. Kerry? Clinton loyalists say no.

STEVE RICCHETTI, POLITICAL ADVISER TO FORMER PRESIDENT CLINTON: The most important political figure in America to Democrats is Senator Kerry by far right now, including to President Clinton. And so to the extent that we can talk about the Democratic agenda and the priorities of the party, I think that's advantageous to Senator Kerry. WALLACE: But conservative publisher Brad Miner disagrees.

BRAD MINER, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, AMERICAN COMPASS BOOK CLUB: Bill Clinton is about to stir up all of the mud from the 1990s. You know, I mean, suddenly, American conservatives are going to be energized in a way that I think they may not have been before this book.

WALLACE: One anti-Clinton group already ran an ad on television.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)

NARRATOR: You don't need Clinton's book to know winning the war on terror demands a president who is willing to fight it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: And it feels a bit like "Groundhog Day," a return to the late 1990s with Bill Clinton vs. his enemies.

(on camera): And, Paula, now the question is, will the Clinton saga be a temporary media attention or something that has lasting impact on the presidential campaign?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Thanks so much, Kelly.

Just hitting the newsstands today, "TIME" magazine's cover story with Bill Clinton. "TIME" columnist Joe Klein, a frequent contributor to our show, sat down with the former president last week for an exclusive print interview.

Welcome, Joe.

JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi.

ZAHN: This might be a good time to point out, with this discussion tonight, we kick off our nightly series, "Countdown to the Election."

Let's get started with your interview with the president. You've interviewed many times before. Was this the same Bill Clinton you've talked with before?

KLEIN: Well, the interview was done with Michael Duffy, who is the "TIME" Washington bureau chief. And we went up to Clinton's house in Chappaqua and we did the interview in his barn, which is where he wrote this very long book in longhand. And he was very proud of that. He said, I didn't have writer's block once.

He seemed pretty much at ease. And he seemed very, very happy to talk about the things that journalists and maybe even the public are going to be most interested in. That is the Ken Starr investigation and Monica Lewinsky.

Why don't we listen right now to an excerpt from an interview last night on "60 Minutes" about that very subject?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "60 MINUTES")

CLINTON: There was nothing left but my personal failing. That's what people got for over $70 million. And they indicted innocent people because they wouldn't lie. And they exonerated people who committed crimes because they would lie. And they did it because it was nothing but a big political operation designed to bring down the presidency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: So does the president assume any responsibility for what happened to him, or it's all of the vast right-wing conspiracy's fault?

KLEIN: Well, there are two things going on. One is the right- wing conspiracy. And the other is, this guy has fallen in love with therapy.

He had a year of couples therapy with Mrs. Clinton and some religious therapy as well. And he now has a unified field theory of his own psychology. And it's this. He has left parallel lives throughout his life. When he was a kid, he hid his anger at his drunken stepfather behind this sunny, optimistic disposition. And then, when he became president, that all came flooding back when Ken Starr attacked him.

He said to us the old Greek adage, those whom the Gods would destroy they first make angry. And so he implied -- you can believe this if you want -- this is his explanation -- he implied that his anger drove him to act stupidly and immorally with Monica Lewinsky.

ZAHN: Do you buy that, Joe, or is that a cop-out?

KLEIN: Well, I think that he's very contrite.

He says, I did an immoral thing. But, as for the psychological explanation, I'm a journalist. I don't even play a psychiatrist on TV, so I think we should leave it to the public. But it is a little bit of a stretch, I think.

ZAHN: But he's not suggesting that someone planted Monica Lewinsky in the White House. He's saying that his anger over the Whitewater investigation led to this.

KLEIN: No. He's saying that it was all his fault. He's saying that it was all his fault and the reason why is that he was vulnerable because he was so angry and under stress.

ZAHN: Let's move on to the issue of how you think this book might affect John Kerry's campaign. We're already seeing how much fun the political cartoonists are having with the specter of Bill Clinton potentially wiping out any sort of presence John Kerry might have. What do you think? Does it help him or hurt him? KLEIN: Well, I don't know whether it helps or hurts him. I think that what it does is bring back the really angry, brutal discourse of the '90s.

I mean, Bill Clinton, you know, admits that he made enemies as a child very easily. And now we're going to have that same kind of left-against-right screaming for at least the next couple of weeks. And that kind of tone doesn't help either Kerry or Bush. I think that, in practical immediate terms, John Kerry might not want to be in the news for the next few weeks. He might not want to be in the news until he names his vice president in mid-July.

And he may really want this time to pursue that search as quietly as possible. So he may not be sad that Bill Clinton is going to hog -- take all of the oxygen out of the air for the next few...

ZAHN: And there is this theory bandied about that Bill Clinton has the opportunity to try to burnish his image and, if that happens in this process of selling a book, then it does ultimately help John Kerry.

KLEIN: Well, Bill Clinton's point of view is that he is going after the same right-wing group, the same ultra-conservatives that are going to try to take John Kerry down this year, and if he makes the public more aware of that, then it works to Kerry's benefit.

One of the most striking things about this campaign, and it is a mini-political campaign on Bill Clinton's part, is that he now wants to be remembered for the Starr investigation. He thinks it's one of the triumphs of his presidency, that he was able to beat back impeachment and that he was exonerated for Whitewater and that he was never found guilty of anything except for a peccadillo.

ZAHN: An unusual way to look at the subject of impeachment, isn't it, Joe Klein? Thanks so much.

The comeback of Bill Clinton also means the comeback of controversy. We come back, two former White House insiders who worked with Bill Clinton and supported him over the years. How disappointed were they at his indispensable mistake?

Then, the other side of the story. We are going to hear from a former congressman and a conservative publisher who stoked the fires of impeachment coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The people who worked inside the White House during the Clinton presidency have the unique perspective on what the former president is saying as he promotes his new book.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I was involved in, as I tried to say in the book, two great fights, a struggle with the Republicans over the future of the country, which I won, and a struggle with my old demons, which I lost. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Joining us now are former White House special counsel Lanny Davis and Hillary Clinton's former press secretary Lisa Caputo.

Good to see both of you.

LANNY DAVIS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Hi, Paula.

LISA CAPUTO, FORMER PRESS SECRETARY FOR HILLARY CLINTON: Good to be with you.

ZAHN: I know you're very sensitive to this issue that you think this whole issue of Monica Lewinsky is overwhelming the president's legacy, but he writes very openly in this book about what it was like to confront Hillary Clinton and his daughter. And he's talking about it openly in television interviews.

How disappointed were you when the president admitted to his staff that he, indeed, had had sex with that woman?

DAVIS: Well, I guess I was not surprised, but just disappointed that it had taken him so long, that people like myself were out there doing our best to defend his presidency, while always having doubts about the personal conduct.

But, most importantly, the disproportionate reaction to that private failure that I think continues to this day with the coverage of his book, and missing all of the great things that his presidency did is a greater disappointment.

ZAHN: But you weren't surprised. Why weren't you surprised?

DAVIS: Well, because I think he's a human being with weaknesses. And those particular weaknesses through the years that I've known him were pretty well known.

And I'm not judging, because there are lots of people, including myself, who shouldn't throw stones. I think all of us have failings. Bill Clinton has acknowledged openly most difficult failings that any man or woman can acknowledge than anybody that I really know. And I admire his willingness to be that candid.

ZAHN: And he does talk in a candid way about these demons he's been fighting not only his adult life, but even as a child. He talked about these fights he got in as a kid. He talked about the alleged abuse that went on in his home that he witnessed between his stepfather and his mother.

Were you aware of these demons vis-a-vis your work with Hillary Clinton?

CAPUTO: I knew he had demons. I was surprised.

I had left the White House by the time he had confessed to the Lewinsky issue. And I was surprised because I thought that the White House was putting him into a different standard, that sort of what had happened in the past was dealt with in the '92 and '96 presidential campaign, but that the White House now was a different standard.

And, you know, he told so many of us, you know, it's just not true. And I guess he did what so many people do, which is, they lie about sex. And it's just unfortunate that it was the president of the United States. The good news that came out of it all, though, is that he left office, with above a 60 percent approval rating. And the public was able to separate out the private and the personal.

ZAHN: But you were talking about having to carry the trough for him at a time between that gap when he was telling you one thing and then many months later actually telling the truth.

Describe to us what it's like to work inside the White House during that period of time where you want to herald the great achievements of what you believe this president had triumphed over, and, at the same time, you had to confront that stuff on a daily basis.

DAVIS: Well, first of all, since I spent a lot of time with you on your shows, I was a volunteer. I had left at that time, so it was even more difficult being on the outside, because I was frustrated that what I thought had been a great presidency and the fact that he had done so well, and done so well for all Democrats in making us competitive at the national level, that this was a distraction.

And I wanted him, with all my heart, to put this behind him and tell the truth as early as possible, whatever that truth was. But, you know, Paula, to this day, his presidency will go down in history as a great presidency. And, yet, we're still going to be focusing, and I hope 20 years from now less so, on this terrible final couple of years that were a distraction to the real focus of what he did for the country and the economy, foreign policy, and all the other good things in the presidency.

ZAHN: But, in a way, Lisa, you have to concede that the president, through his writing, is narrowing the definition of his presidency. He is calling the great triumph of his presidency triumphing over Ken Starr in the end.

CAPUTO: I think, Paula, what you see in this book is Bill Clinton beginning to try and write his legacy, his historical legacy, because, you know, so much of what happens today is what's in the press, particularly in the printed word goes into LexisNexis.

And James Carville had a great phrase when we were at the White House. He would talk about what he called the puke factor, which things would emerge from the far right. They would get puked overseas into the British tabloids and then they would get puked back here into the mainstream press.

ZAHN: That's so James.

CAPUTO: And I think what you see President Clinton doing in his book is beginning to come to grips with his legacy, but also setting forth to define his legacy and define the record.

I think there is another important point to this book, which is the danger of the independent counsel law. That law is a very, very dangerous law, because, in essence, what it did during the Clinton years and previous administrations is, it creates a fourth branch of government, a government by subpoena, where none of us, myself included, were really able to do our job to its fullest because we were paralyzed.

ZAHN: Lisa and Lanny, we have got to leave it there this evening. Thank you for your reflections tonight.

CAPUTO: Nice to see you.

DAVIS: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Appreciate it.

Coming up next, critics of the Clinton White House, that vast right-wing conspiracy, how does it look in the rearview mirror of history?

And then a little bit later on, how has the kidnapping and murder of Paul Johnson Jr. affected the thousands of Americans still living in Saudi Arabia? We'll look at that later on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Former President Clinton's new book is more than just a chance for him to try to polish his image. It's another chance for his critics to speak out about the man and his record.

Joining us now from Atlanta, former Republican Congressman Bob Barr. His new book, called the "Meaning of Is," is all about the Clinton impeachment and will be published next month. And from Washington, Al Regnery, publisher of "The American Spectator" magazine and numerous anti-Clinton books.

Good to see both of you. Welcome.

BOB BARR, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Thank you, Paula.

AL REGNERY, PUBLISHER, "THE AMERICAN SPECTATOR": Thank you.

ZAHN: Congressman Barr, I want to start with you this evening.

In President Clinton's new book, he wants to be remembered for the Ken Starr investigation, in fact, calls his fight against his impeachment the great triumph of his presidency.

Your reaction to that.

BARR: Well, this really illustrates perhaps, Paula, better than anything else that Clinton has said or that he ever did that he really operates in a world of his own. It's sort of a cartoon world. I liken it to the world of Wile E. Coyote. There's very little connection with realty. There's no consequences for one's actions. And one can say and do whatever one wants and get away with it because, as we all know, Wile E. Coyote always bounced back no matter what happened to him. The reality, though, is very, very different. Bill Clinton is and will remain, hopefully for our entire history, the only elected president ever impeached in our country's history.

And no matter how many times he tries to say that was a great honor, that that was an awful lot of fun, it wasn't. It was not an honor and it never will be.

ZAHN: Al, what he does in the book is give some specific examples of what he describes the vast right-wing conspiracy, a concerted effort to take him down long before he even became president.

REGNERY: Well, I think that that is really ridiculous.

He was always obsessed by his enemies and, of course, there were people that did oppose him who did whatever they could to make life unpleasant for him, I'm sure. But, as Bob says, there was a very legitimate issue concerning, Paula, the Monica Lewinsky matter. And that involved perjury, suborning perjury of others, obstruction of justice and so on.

So, I don't think there's any question that what the so-called vast right-wing conspiracy was doing was legitimate.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Well, let me ask Congressman Barr this for a moment.

Do you concede, though, that there was an obsession by parts of the right wing to get Bill Clinton?

BARR: No.

The only obsession, if one can call it obsession, on the part of those of us who sought to have him impeached -- and, by the way, I filed the first inquiry of impeachment long before we knew about Monica Lewinsky. It was based on a number of other very serious charges that went to the heart of our nation's national security, for example, the corruption of our political system and so forth.

The only obsession was adherence to the rule of law and adherence to the Constitution. And if, in fact, in Bill Clinton's mind, adherence to the rule of law and adherence to the principles in our Constitution is wrong, then, here again, this is another example of how far out of touch with reality this man really is.

ZAHN: But, Al

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Jump in. REGNERY: Let me just say something also.

Clinton's obsession with his enemies was something that he really brought on himself. I mean, after all, if he had simply confessed, admitted what happened at the beginning, there never would have been an impeachment. There never would have been hearings, any of the other things that went on. It would have been over. And he wouldn't be remembered now as the president that was impeached.

So it was really his own fault for having lied in the first place and then continuing to lie for month after month after month.

ZAHN: But you don't think or you wouldn't acknowledge that his enemies of the right wing were equally obsessed with him as he was with his enemies?

REGNERY: Well, no more than the Democrats are obsessed with George W. Bush now or any other opposition party is obsessed with whoever happens to be in the White House or wherever it is on the other side. No, I don't think they were obsessed.

ZAHN: Congressman Barr, what do you say to analysts out there who are suggesting that this impeachment was a great distraction to the country and might have slowed down any kind of progress that was being made on the hunt for Osama bin Laden and better understanding his web of terror?

BARR: Well, the fact of the matter is that the Clinton administration did not pay enough attention to Osama bin Laden. The president did not pay enough attention to developing a coherent plan against terrorism. And he can try all he wants to blame that on Monica Lewinsky or Ken Starr or Bob Barr or whoever.

But the fact of the matter is that the president of the United States, whoever he or she might be, has, at their disposal, a vast array of information and levers that they can pull to do certain things. And if they simply choose not to, then they have to suffer the consequences that history may bestow on them.

ZAHN: Gentlemen, we've got to leave it there this evening. Congressman Barr, Al Regnery, thank you both.

BARR: Thanks, Paula.

REGNERY: Thank you.

ZAHN: And coming up on Thursday, you'll hear from the former president himself. He will be Larry king's guest for the hour in his first live prime-time interview.

And coming up next, fearful days for Americans working in Saudi Arabia. You'll hear from one woman about the dangers her husband faces and why he says his company will not let him leave.

We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The thousands of Americans and other Westerners living in Saudi Arabia are faced with a stark decision: to remain or leave as soon as possible.

The beheading of American engineer Paul Johnson Jr. last week showed in horrifying terms the dangers of staying amid a campaign of terror by militants linked to al Qaeda.

But for many, leaving is not a simple matter. For example, one American works for a Saudi company that requires 90 days' notice to leave. Otherwise, he has to forfeit moving and travel expenses and bonus pay.

His wife, Maria Exposito, is in Washington. She joins us now to talk about the difficult decision he's facing now.

Good of you to join us tonight. First of all, how afraid is your husband right now as he stays in Saudi Arabia?

MARIA EXPOSITO, HUSBAND WORKS IN SAUDI ARABIA: Well, he -- he used not to be afraid. He's a 20-year veteran from the Air Force, but lately he has been frightened. He has told me that he sleeps with a knife next to his bed and he has put booby traps, noisy booby traps up to his bedroom so he knows what's happening while he's asleep.

ZAHN: I know the last time you spoke with him is yesterday.

EXPOSITO: Yesterday.

ZAHN: Has he talked with you in any meaningful way about what impact the beheading of Paul Johnson Jr. has done to his own sense of vulnerability?

EXPOSITO: Well, he feels very unsafe, especially with the problems of security on his own compound, so they're all scared. They know that they are not as safe as they thought they were.

ZAHN: So let me get this straight. On one hand, you have the State Department recommending that he try to go home. He's gone to his employees, a Saudi Arabian company, and they basically said, "yes, you can go, but you've got to give us three months' notice. And oh, by the way, if you leave before that, you forfeit your bonus pay?"

EXPOSITO: That's correct.

ZAHN: So what is your husband weighing right now? As he confronts this horrible decision?

EXPOSITO: Well, right now, he's 54 years old, so he knows when he comes home, he's so specialized from his veteran services, that he's not going to be able to find the right job.

It is in his contract. He has to give them 90 days notice if he wants to leave, but he signed the contract before the escalation in violence, so I think that they should review that -- that clause. If he comes back right now, first of all, he cannot, he has to ask for his passport that his company is holding. And if he comes back home, it's going to be leaving him poorer than when he left. That's basically what he's told me, I didn't go through all that to come home poorer than when I left.

ZAHN: So is there any indication at this hour that either the U.S. embassy is going to help you out or the Saudi government?

EXPOSITO: Well, the -- the Saudi embassy, my husband contacted Mr. James Oberwetter, our ambassador over there and they cannot do anything. They consider that a labor dispute.

ZAHN: And what are you telling your husband to do?

EXPOSITO: I want my husband to come home, especially after what he has told me about his compound. It was one of the compounds that was bombed on May 12 last year and, from what he says, the back gate that was blown up has not been repaired yet, and they cannot trust the security guards who sometimes are seen sleeping during duty.

And in another instance, some of the security guards and some of the compound personnel from third world countries are not being paid for six months, which makes them most susceptible to bribes.

So I'm very scared. I want him to come home, but I'm not there to drag him back.

ZAHN: But I think what the audience also needs to understand was the whole reason for your husband to go back to Saudi Arabia in 2003 was that he couldn't find work in the United States.

EXPOSITO: Exactly.

ZAHN: Finally tonight, help us better understand how your husband, who's sleeping at night in bed with a knife next to him, is weighing this decision. If he could get his passport tonight from the company, would he leave without his bonus pay and pay his own way home?

EXPOSITO: No. He cares about our children, and he knows our financial situation. He wants my daughter to finish college.

He knows that when he comes back at 54, he's not going to find a job. He's too specialized. And he's risking his life, according to me, he's risking his life to help our family.

I want him to come home, but he won't come home because he thinks that that's the money and that's things that is due to him and he doesn't want to forfeit it.

Like he said, he would have gone there instead of away from us for nothing. So he wants what is due to him and come now, because the circumstances are different than when he signed the contract. Now it's -- it's not a labor dispute, it's -- it's a matter of life and death. ZAHN: Well, we wish your family luck.

EXPOSITO: Thank you.

ZAHN: I guess it's going to be hard for a lot of people to understand how it ever came to this.

EXPOSITO: And -- and what I want the public is know is that in his compound, things are not being done to keep those people safe. And my husband is alone and that's why he can make that decision, but we still have children. We still have families over there who are in the same situation. And it would be too costly for those families to come on their own with their own money. And that's why they're still there. But where my husband is staying, they still have children.

ZAHN: Our hearts go out to all of them. Maria Exposito, thank you for sharing your story tonight.

EXPOSITO: Thank you so much for having me and allowing me to say it.

ZAHN: Our pleasure.

EXPOSITO: Thank you.

ZAHN: Now we're going to get the Saudi government's perspective on this. Joining us now from Washington is Nail al-Jubeir, spokesman for Saudi Arabia's embassy to the United States.

Welcome, sir.

For starters, given that the United States State Department has asked Americans to leave Saudi Arabia, is it fair that a Saudi Arabian company is holding the passport of an American worker and telling him that he can't leave because he hasn't given them 90 days notice and if he does go home early, he has to pay his own way home and he forfeits his bonus. Is that fair?

NAIL AL-JUBEIR, SAUDI EMBASSY SPOKESPERSON: Well, it's an issue, it's a business dispute. I think the U.S. government, U.S. embassy in Riyadh has said so.

It is tragic. It is unfortunate in the lives we're living in right now, but at the end of the day, it is a business decision.

Do I think people that do not feel safe in Saudi Arabia need to decide to whether to leave or not is their decision. At the end they also have to figure out in terms of the financial aspects of it.

It is tragic. There are probably thousand of cases like this where it becomes an issue of money whether they should give up a job and go home or not. But it's a business dispute. I haven't heard the other side of it. I did hear Maria's case, and it is very tragic.

ZAHN: So, sir, do you think Maria Exposito's husband is safe? If he stays on in Saudi Arabia, given what just happened to Paul Johnson Jr.?

AL-JUBEIR: I think it is -- it is -- Saudi Arabia is safe, but I will not sit here and say every person living in Saudi Arabia is safe. That is something I will not say.

It is a decision that they have to make. We believe it is safe. We are -- The war on terrorism in Saudi Arabia is turning. We have received some of the biggest criminals in Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, it took the tragic death of Johnson to bring the headlines to what's going on in Saudi Arabia. It is a war we're fighting, and this is something we intend of winning.

ZAHN: But Mrs. Exposito just described in great detail that the compound where her husband is living is not safe. He feels so vulnerable right now, he's actually sleeping with a knife.

AL-JUBEIR: You know, we're back to the same issue. And the issue is if -- you know, it is a business decision. It's a decision that the company has to make and something the company needs to address with the company, whether people who have a legal binding contract can get out of the contract.

From what I understand, the company is allowing him to leave, but they're not paying him the signing bonus. And they're not paying him the -- the -- I believe it was the round trip ticket.

ZAHN: Sure.

AL-JUBEIR: It's a business decision, and he and the company have to decide it.

ZAHN: But isn't that -- Isn't that a terrible position to be put into as an American worker who does not feel safe living in Saudi Arabia?

AL-JUBEIR: Well, it's not only being a terrible position to be put in as an American. It's being in a terrible position to be in as any nationality, where you have to decide whether you have to forfeit your pay to leave or not. That is a terrible decision that any person has to make.

The way I look at it at the end of the day is do you feel safe enough to stay or do you think that it's better for you to leave? These are decisions that we all have to make.

ZAHN: Mr. Al-Jubeir, we've got to leave it there this evening. Thank you very much for joining us.

AL-JUBEIR: Thank you for having me.

ZAHN: When we come back, why American soldiers accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners think Defense Secretary Rumsfeld could help their defense.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: In Baghdad today, pretrial hearings opened for two or three soldiers charged in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal.

Specialist Charles Graner is accused of jumping on detainees as they were piled on the floor. Sergeant Javal Davis is accused of maltreating prisoners, stomping on their hands and feet and putting them on a pile on the floor so other soldiers could assault them. The hearing for a third soldier, Sergeant Ivan "Chip" Frederick, was postponed because his civilian lawyer failed to appear.

To give us the latest on what happened in court today, let's turn to chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour, who joins us from Baghdad this evening.

Christiane, what did we learn about the kind of defense that will be pursued in these cases?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a couple of things. Two of the lawyers said that they want to just dismiss this case. They're going to call command interference. In other words, they say commanders have unlawfully and improperly influenced the proceedings to the extent that they can't get a fair trial.

But absent that, they're going to try, they say, to have a two- prong defense, one of those prongs implying that they were just following orders, their clients.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUY WOMACK, ATTORNEY FOR SGT. CHARLES GRANER: The M.P.'s, Specialist Graner and the others, were following what they believed to be lawful orders. They were ordered by military intelligence officers to do certain things, to soften up these prisoners. They were encouraged to do things. They were congratulated for how well they were doing it. And they believed they were doing something that was lawful as part of the war on terrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: What they seem to want to do is to try to create an environment in which they can prove a climate of permissibility, a permissive climate that allowed this kind of heavy-handed interrogation.

ZAHN: So, Christiane, the lawyers for these defendants have been given permission to interview top military generals, but they have told you that's not good enough. They actually want to question Secretary Rumsfeld.

What do they think they're going to learn from him that they won't learn from these generals?

AMANPOUR: Well, they have actually now got this permission, as you said correctly, to interview the top generals right up to General Abizaid, who is the commander of all forces in this region. So it's moving up the chain of command.

And they say to us that while they do not for a moment imply that Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld has done anything wrong, they believe that he and other members of the administration, quote, "loosened the reins" on what is permissible in terms of interrogation and extracting information. And that is what they want to get from questioning.

They told us they want to depose Donald Rumsfeld. At least Graner's lawyers said that to us.

ZAHN: And the process from here on out is pretty complicated. What is the very next step?

AMANPOUR: Well, there are a couple of more pretrial hearings. As you mentioned one of those, Frederick, who is associated with that iconic image of the man with the hood standing on the box of military rations with the electric wires from his body.

He had his stopped today because his defense lawyer didn't turn up, so that is going to have to take place in a month.

Then they are going to have to finish all their witness gathering and evidence gathering by July 31. And then they say, the lawyers, to us that they'll need at least several more months before they're ready for trial.

So they told us no earlier than October, but the U.S. military side said that they thought that maybe these trials, the actual court- martial trials could get underway mid-August.

ZAHN: All right, Christiane. I want to close tonight with the latest on the four Marines who were killed in Ramadi today. What have we learned about their deaths?

AMANPOUR: Well, this news started seeping out earlier this morning, and what we learned this afternoon was that, indeed, four Marines had been killed.

What happened, they say, is they sent out a rapid reaction force when it turned out that these Marines had not established contact with their command or their headquarters at an appointed time like they were supposed to.

Once that deadline was missed, they sent out a rapid reaction force, and they found bodies in a building site area in Ramadi, which as you know is such a hotbed of Sunni and extremism and anti- Americanism, Ramadi, Fallujah and that whole Sunni Triangle area.

ZAHN: The kind of news we've been warned to expect, not the kind we want to hear. Christiane Amanpour, thank you for the update.

For an in-depth look now at the hearings of soldiers charged in the abuse scandal, we turn to an expert on military law. Eugene Fidel heads the military practice group at the Feldsman-Tucker law firm in Washington. He is also the founder of the National Institute of Military Justice. He joins us now from Washington.

Welcome, sir.

EUGENE FIDEL, FOUNDER, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF MILITARY JUSTICE: Thanks, Paula.

ZAHN: So two attorneys representing those charged in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal have suggested that they are not only interested in the top military generals, they want to question Donald Rumsfeld and the president of the United States. Is that going to happen?

FIDEL: I think that's somewhat unlikely. You know, that's a tall order. On the other hand, I don't think you can entirely rule it out because of all the evidence that's been sort of filtering out through the series of leaks that we've had over the last several months.

I think there are going to be some tough issues that are going to have to be faced by the military judge in this case.

ZAHN: But, sir, what is it that these attorneys would extract from the president and the defense secretary that they're not going to get from the top military generals?

FIDEL: Really, I think the issue, Paula, is whether they'll be able to launch a defense of obedience to orders. And in order to do that, they may try to connect the dots that link Secretary Rumsfeld or either link or don't link Secretary Rumsfeld to the transmission of information down through the official hierarchy to the people who are actually on duty at Abu Ghraib.

And ditto for President Bush. There were, obviously, memos that were addressed to the president's lawyer and presumably from the president's lawyer to him that had to do with the treatment of detainees and what was permissible and what wasn't.

So the question is are they going to be able to connect those dots?

ZAHN: The defense strategy is clear at this hour; they're basically going to say their clients were following orders. Who has the burden of proof here?

FIDEL: That's one of the most interesting things. It turns out that under the manual for courts-martial, it's the responsibility of the prosecutor, called the trial counsel in a court-martial, to show that the defense of obedience to orders doesn't exist.

That's the opposite of the way you would expect it and, more than that, it's a responsibility of the prosecutor to show that the defense doesn't apply beyond a reasonable doubt.

So it's really going to be interesting to see how the provision of the manual for courts-martial plays out in these particular cases.

ZAHN: I know it's treacherous to ask an attorney to look through a crystal ball here, but what's going to happen to these men and the women linked to this abuse scandal?

FIDEL: The answer to your question, Paula, as you know, is we don't know yet. This whole chain of events that began, really, on 9/11 has taken us into one sort of wilderness of the law after another, beginning with the Walker Lindh case and on through one obscure area after another.

I think we're in another set of totally unpredictable and unpredicted facts, and I would say hold the phone.

And at least I would say let's keep an eye on this. This is much more important stuff than a lot of the other things that have been calling -- driving our attention span over the last few months. This is much more important than you know, sports figure crimes or things like that. So I'm applauding your dedication of time to this.

ZAHN: Well, thank you. And we will be counting you in the months ahead to help us all better understand the complexity of what we're looking at here. Eugene Fidel, thanks for your time.

FIDEL: My pleasure.

ZAHN: When we come back, with the help of an American coach, a young Iraqi athlete carries his country's hopes and dreams to the summer Olympics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Iraqis are enduring bombings, sabotage and protests as they struggle to rebuild their nation. But they are also looking toward the future, and one sign of that is the Iraqi Olympic boxing team, whose coach is an unlikely American.

Bruce Burkhardt reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAURICE WATKINS, OLYMPIC COACH: Go forward! Forward! Forward!

BRUCE BURKHARDT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Maurice "Termite" Watkins was at one time a successful boxer, with a record of 58 wins, five losses and 48 knockouts. But this, this is the high point.

Termite is coach of the Iraqi boxing team and Najaf Ali -- he's in red trunks -- is fighting here in Atlanta in a pre-Olympic bout. He's Termite's pride and joy.

WATKINS: He's the most fabulous person I've ever known.

BURKHARDT: Termite never set out to be the Iraqi boxing coach. He went to Iraq 14 months ago as an exterminator under contract with the military.

(on camera) When word of his boxing skills got out, a coalition official asked Termite what he thought the chances were of Iraq being able to send a boxer to the Olympics.

WATKINS: I have to be honest with you, slim to none. I said, "You may have one in a million chance." He said, "Great! We don't need the million! All we need is one. As long as we've got a chance we'll do it." And he says, "I expect you to get it done," and so here we are today.

BURKHARDT: Najaf Ali, featherweight, is going to the Olympics in Athens, the first boxer from Iraq since 1992.

NAJAF ALI, IRAQI BOXING TEAM: When I go to the ring, I'm carrying a Iraq flag with me. That way I carry all of Iraq with me.

BURKHARDT: A lot to carry on his 106-pound frame, but Termite who's developed a bond with Najaf that goes way behind the coach- athlete relationship, has no words.

WATKINS: He's got the biggest heart in the world. He loves everybody. He has the best outlook on life and especially considering what they have been there.

BURKHARDT: When Termite took over the boxing team, he found a team in shambles. Half the team was barefoot and boxing not on a canvas, but a wooden floor with splinters. The biggest obstacle was mental.

WATKINS: Because having fun is not nothing they had done before. As a matter of fact, they thought out of the fear of what could happen instead of out of the joy of the sport.

BURKHARDT: You might remember who was once in charge of Iraq's Olympic team, Uday Hussein, son of Saddam, who reportedly punished, even tortured athletes who lost.

But Termite brought something else to his athletes: an unrelenting optimism.

He made the decision to go to Iraq. His wife tried to talk him out of it.

WATKINS: But I told her, I said, "I think I'm the one that can change Iraq."

And she says -- She started crying and she said, "You can't go around changing countries!"

And I said, "No, but I can try."

Najaf, fight! Fight, fight, fight! Fight Najaf, fight!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Nice story. Our own Bruce Burkhardt. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And that wraps it up for us this evening. Thanks so much for being with us. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. Hope to see you again tomorrow night. Good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired June 21, 2004 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, he's back.

WILLIAM J. CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: How are you? Thank you for your service.

ZAHN: On TV.

CLINTON: To me, the whole battle was a badge of honor. I don't see it as a great stain.

ZAHN: On the newsstands. Bill Clinton, he's everywhere.

After the execution of Paul Johnson Jr., after the warnings for foreigners to get out, why is it so hard for this woman's husband to leave Saudi Arabia?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a matter of life and death.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Good evening. Welcome to a brand new week here. Thanks so much for joining us.

As Yogi Berra might say, Americans can be forgiven for feeling deja vu all over again. The man who had more comebacks than Elvis is taking center stage once again. Bill Clinton is doing one of the things he love best, making contact with the people face-to-face in a road trip to promote his nearly 1,000-page memoir, "My Life." And while this is the man who presided over the strongest economic expansion on record, who brought Israelis and Palestinians to the White House in a quest for peace and pulled the U.S. and its allies together for action in Bosnia and Kosovo, his scandals brought him back to the brink of being thrown out.

We begin with our national correspondent Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Bill Clinton is back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do I do? I just show up on Tuesday at 6:30?

WALLACE: A book launch unlike any in recent memory. Even his critics are curious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excited? I'm not excited, but I'm buying the book.

WALLACE: Plugs coming from the most unusual places.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I could tell you more of the story, but it's coming out in fine bookstores all over America.

(LAUGHTER)

WALLACE: And the media...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The former president.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: President Bill Clinton's memoirs.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Hit bookstores tomorrow.

WALLACE: ... can't get enough. The master politician.

CLINTON: I tell you the story as it happened to me.

WALLACE: In a high-velocity public relations campaign, not just to sell books, but to shine up his standing. He gets personal, recounting the moment he told wife Hillary about his affair with White House intern Monica Lewinsky.

CLINTON: I had a sleepless night and woke her up and sat down on the side of the bed and just told her. And it was awful, but I had to do it.

WALLACE: And he fires away at independent prosecutor Kenneth Starr.

CLINTON: There was nothing left but my personal failing. That's what people got for over $70 million. It was nothing but a big political operation designed to bring down the presidency.

WALLACE: Asked about Mr. Clinton's comments, Starr, in his first interview about the book, does not fire back.

KENNETH STARR, FORMER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: I would like to think we can soon close that chapter of permanently, but I understand the depth of his feelings. It was a very unpleasant period.

WALLACE: Bill Clinton has returned to center stage at a time when all eyes were expected to be on another Democrat. So will Mr. Clinton overshadow Mr. Kerry? Clinton loyalists say no.

STEVE RICCHETTI, POLITICAL ADVISER TO FORMER PRESIDENT CLINTON: The most important political figure in America to Democrats is Senator Kerry by far right now, including to President Clinton. And so to the extent that we can talk about the Democratic agenda and the priorities of the party, I think that's advantageous to Senator Kerry. WALLACE: But conservative publisher Brad Miner disagrees.

BRAD MINER, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, AMERICAN COMPASS BOOK CLUB: Bill Clinton is about to stir up all of the mud from the 1990s. You know, I mean, suddenly, American conservatives are going to be energized in a way that I think they may not have been before this book.

WALLACE: One anti-Clinton group already ran an ad on television.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)

NARRATOR: You don't need Clinton's book to know winning the war on terror demands a president who is willing to fight it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: And it feels a bit like "Groundhog Day," a return to the late 1990s with Bill Clinton vs. his enemies.

(on camera): And, Paula, now the question is, will the Clinton saga be a temporary media attention or something that has lasting impact on the presidential campaign?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Thanks so much, Kelly.

Just hitting the newsstands today, "TIME" magazine's cover story with Bill Clinton. "TIME" columnist Joe Klein, a frequent contributor to our show, sat down with the former president last week for an exclusive print interview.

Welcome, Joe.

JOE KLEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi.

ZAHN: This might be a good time to point out, with this discussion tonight, we kick off our nightly series, "Countdown to the Election."

Let's get started with your interview with the president. You've interviewed many times before. Was this the same Bill Clinton you've talked with before?

KLEIN: Well, the interview was done with Michael Duffy, who is the "TIME" Washington bureau chief. And we went up to Clinton's house in Chappaqua and we did the interview in his barn, which is where he wrote this very long book in longhand. And he was very proud of that. He said, I didn't have writer's block once.

He seemed pretty much at ease. And he seemed very, very happy to talk about the things that journalists and maybe even the public are going to be most interested in. That is the Ken Starr investigation and Monica Lewinsky.

Why don't we listen right now to an excerpt from an interview last night on "60 Minutes" about that very subject?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "60 MINUTES")

CLINTON: There was nothing left but my personal failing. That's what people got for over $70 million. And they indicted innocent people because they wouldn't lie. And they exonerated people who committed crimes because they would lie. And they did it because it was nothing but a big political operation designed to bring down the presidency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: So does the president assume any responsibility for what happened to him, or it's all of the vast right-wing conspiracy's fault?

KLEIN: Well, there are two things going on. One is the right- wing conspiracy. And the other is, this guy has fallen in love with therapy.

He had a year of couples therapy with Mrs. Clinton and some religious therapy as well. And he now has a unified field theory of his own psychology. And it's this. He has left parallel lives throughout his life. When he was a kid, he hid his anger at his drunken stepfather behind this sunny, optimistic disposition. And then, when he became president, that all came flooding back when Ken Starr attacked him.

He said to us the old Greek adage, those whom the Gods would destroy they first make angry. And so he implied -- you can believe this if you want -- this is his explanation -- he implied that his anger drove him to act stupidly and immorally with Monica Lewinsky.

ZAHN: Do you buy that, Joe, or is that a cop-out?

KLEIN: Well, I think that he's very contrite.

He says, I did an immoral thing. But, as for the psychological explanation, I'm a journalist. I don't even play a psychiatrist on TV, so I think we should leave it to the public. But it is a little bit of a stretch, I think.

ZAHN: But he's not suggesting that someone planted Monica Lewinsky in the White House. He's saying that his anger over the Whitewater investigation led to this.

KLEIN: No. He's saying that it was all his fault. He's saying that it was all his fault and the reason why is that he was vulnerable because he was so angry and under stress.

ZAHN: Let's move on to the issue of how you think this book might affect John Kerry's campaign. We're already seeing how much fun the political cartoonists are having with the specter of Bill Clinton potentially wiping out any sort of presence John Kerry might have. What do you think? Does it help him or hurt him? KLEIN: Well, I don't know whether it helps or hurts him. I think that what it does is bring back the really angry, brutal discourse of the '90s.

I mean, Bill Clinton, you know, admits that he made enemies as a child very easily. And now we're going to have that same kind of left-against-right screaming for at least the next couple of weeks. And that kind of tone doesn't help either Kerry or Bush. I think that, in practical immediate terms, John Kerry might not want to be in the news for the next few weeks. He might not want to be in the news until he names his vice president in mid-July.

And he may really want this time to pursue that search as quietly as possible. So he may not be sad that Bill Clinton is going to hog -- take all of the oxygen out of the air for the next few...

ZAHN: And there is this theory bandied about that Bill Clinton has the opportunity to try to burnish his image and, if that happens in this process of selling a book, then it does ultimately help John Kerry.

KLEIN: Well, Bill Clinton's point of view is that he is going after the same right-wing group, the same ultra-conservatives that are going to try to take John Kerry down this year, and if he makes the public more aware of that, then it works to Kerry's benefit.

One of the most striking things about this campaign, and it is a mini-political campaign on Bill Clinton's part, is that he now wants to be remembered for the Starr investigation. He thinks it's one of the triumphs of his presidency, that he was able to beat back impeachment and that he was exonerated for Whitewater and that he was never found guilty of anything except for a peccadillo.

ZAHN: An unusual way to look at the subject of impeachment, isn't it, Joe Klein? Thanks so much.

The comeback of Bill Clinton also means the comeback of controversy. We come back, two former White House insiders who worked with Bill Clinton and supported him over the years. How disappointed were they at his indispensable mistake?

Then, the other side of the story. We are going to hear from a former congressman and a conservative publisher who stoked the fires of impeachment coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The people who worked inside the White House during the Clinton presidency have the unique perspective on what the former president is saying as he promotes his new book.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I was involved in, as I tried to say in the book, two great fights, a struggle with the Republicans over the future of the country, which I won, and a struggle with my old demons, which I lost. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Joining us now are former White House special counsel Lanny Davis and Hillary Clinton's former press secretary Lisa Caputo.

Good to see both of you.

LANNY DAVIS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Hi, Paula.

LISA CAPUTO, FORMER PRESS SECRETARY FOR HILLARY CLINTON: Good to be with you.

ZAHN: I know you're very sensitive to this issue that you think this whole issue of Monica Lewinsky is overwhelming the president's legacy, but he writes very openly in this book about what it was like to confront Hillary Clinton and his daughter. And he's talking about it openly in television interviews.

How disappointed were you when the president admitted to his staff that he, indeed, had had sex with that woman?

DAVIS: Well, I guess I was not surprised, but just disappointed that it had taken him so long, that people like myself were out there doing our best to defend his presidency, while always having doubts about the personal conduct.

But, most importantly, the disproportionate reaction to that private failure that I think continues to this day with the coverage of his book, and missing all of the great things that his presidency did is a greater disappointment.

ZAHN: But you weren't surprised. Why weren't you surprised?

DAVIS: Well, because I think he's a human being with weaknesses. And those particular weaknesses through the years that I've known him were pretty well known.

And I'm not judging, because there are lots of people, including myself, who shouldn't throw stones. I think all of us have failings. Bill Clinton has acknowledged openly most difficult failings that any man or woman can acknowledge than anybody that I really know. And I admire his willingness to be that candid.

ZAHN: And he does talk in a candid way about these demons he's been fighting not only his adult life, but even as a child. He talked about these fights he got in as a kid. He talked about the alleged abuse that went on in his home that he witnessed between his stepfather and his mother.

Were you aware of these demons vis-a-vis your work with Hillary Clinton?

CAPUTO: I knew he had demons. I was surprised.

I had left the White House by the time he had confessed to the Lewinsky issue. And I was surprised because I thought that the White House was putting him into a different standard, that sort of what had happened in the past was dealt with in the '92 and '96 presidential campaign, but that the White House now was a different standard.

And, you know, he told so many of us, you know, it's just not true. And I guess he did what so many people do, which is, they lie about sex. And it's just unfortunate that it was the president of the United States. The good news that came out of it all, though, is that he left office, with above a 60 percent approval rating. And the public was able to separate out the private and the personal.

ZAHN: But you were talking about having to carry the trough for him at a time between that gap when he was telling you one thing and then many months later actually telling the truth.

Describe to us what it's like to work inside the White House during that period of time where you want to herald the great achievements of what you believe this president had triumphed over, and, at the same time, you had to confront that stuff on a daily basis.

DAVIS: Well, first of all, since I spent a lot of time with you on your shows, I was a volunteer. I had left at that time, so it was even more difficult being on the outside, because I was frustrated that what I thought had been a great presidency and the fact that he had done so well, and done so well for all Democrats in making us competitive at the national level, that this was a distraction.

And I wanted him, with all my heart, to put this behind him and tell the truth as early as possible, whatever that truth was. But, you know, Paula, to this day, his presidency will go down in history as a great presidency. And, yet, we're still going to be focusing, and I hope 20 years from now less so, on this terrible final couple of years that were a distraction to the real focus of what he did for the country and the economy, foreign policy, and all the other good things in the presidency.

ZAHN: But, in a way, Lisa, you have to concede that the president, through his writing, is narrowing the definition of his presidency. He is calling the great triumph of his presidency triumphing over Ken Starr in the end.

CAPUTO: I think, Paula, what you see in this book is Bill Clinton beginning to try and write his legacy, his historical legacy, because, you know, so much of what happens today is what's in the press, particularly in the printed word goes into LexisNexis.

And James Carville had a great phrase when we were at the White House. He would talk about what he called the puke factor, which things would emerge from the far right. They would get puked overseas into the British tabloids and then they would get puked back here into the mainstream press.

ZAHN: That's so James.

CAPUTO: And I think what you see President Clinton doing in his book is beginning to come to grips with his legacy, but also setting forth to define his legacy and define the record.

I think there is another important point to this book, which is the danger of the independent counsel law. That law is a very, very dangerous law, because, in essence, what it did during the Clinton years and previous administrations is, it creates a fourth branch of government, a government by subpoena, where none of us, myself included, were really able to do our job to its fullest because we were paralyzed.

ZAHN: Lisa and Lanny, we have got to leave it there this evening. Thank you for your reflections tonight.

CAPUTO: Nice to see you.

DAVIS: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Appreciate it.

Coming up next, critics of the Clinton White House, that vast right-wing conspiracy, how does it look in the rearview mirror of history?

And then a little bit later on, how has the kidnapping and murder of Paul Johnson Jr. affected the thousands of Americans still living in Saudi Arabia? We'll look at that later on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Former President Clinton's new book is more than just a chance for him to try to polish his image. It's another chance for his critics to speak out about the man and his record.

Joining us now from Atlanta, former Republican Congressman Bob Barr. His new book, called the "Meaning of Is," is all about the Clinton impeachment and will be published next month. And from Washington, Al Regnery, publisher of "The American Spectator" magazine and numerous anti-Clinton books.

Good to see both of you. Welcome.

BOB BARR, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Thank you, Paula.

AL REGNERY, PUBLISHER, "THE AMERICAN SPECTATOR": Thank you.

ZAHN: Congressman Barr, I want to start with you this evening.

In President Clinton's new book, he wants to be remembered for the Ken Starr investigation, in fact, calls his fight against his impeachment the great triumph of his presidency.

Your reaction to that.

BARR: Well, this really illustrates perhaps, Paula, better than anything else that Clinton has said or that he ever did that he really operates in a world of his own. It's sort of a cartoon world. I liken it to the world of Wile E. Coyote. There's very little connection with realty. There's no consequences for one's actions. And one can say and do whatever one wants and get away with it because, as we all know, Wile E. Coyote always bounced back no matter what happened to him. The reality, though, is very, very different. Bill Clinton is and will remain, hopefully for our entire history, the only elected president ever impeached in our country's history.

And no matter how many times he tries to say that was a great honor, that that was an awful lot of fun, it wasn't. It was not an honor and it never will be.

ZAHN: Al, what he does in the book is give some specific examples of what he describes the vast right-wing conspiracy, a concerted effort to take him down long before he even became president.

REGNERY: Well, I think that that is really ridiculous.

He was always obsessed by his enemies and, of course, there were people that did oppose him who did whatever they could to make life unpleasant for him, I'm sure. But, as Bob says, there was a very legitimate issue concerning, Paula, the Monica Lewinsky matter. And that involved perjury, suborning perjury of others, obstruction of justice and so on.

So, I don't think there's any question that what the so-called vast right-wing conspiracy was doing was legitimate.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Well, let me ask Congressman Barr this for a moment.

Do you concede, though, that there was an obsession by parts of the right wing to get Bill Clinton?

BARR: No.

The only obsession, if one can call it obsession, on the part of those of us who sought to have him impeached -- and, by the way, I filed the first inquiry of impeachment long before we knew about Monica Lewinsky. It was based on a number of other very serious charges that went to the heart of our nation's national security, for example, the corruption of our political system and so forth.

The only obsession was adherence to the rule of law and adherence to the Constitution. And if, in fact, in Bill Clinton's mind, adherence to the rule of law and adherence to the principles in our Constitution is wrong, then, here again, this is another example of how far out of touch with reality this man really is.

ZAHN: But, Al

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Jump in. REGNERY: Let me just say something also.

Clinton's obsession with his enemies was something that he really brought on himself. I mean, after all, if he had simply confessed, admitted what happened at the beginning, there never would have been an impeachment. There never would have been hearings, any of the other things that went on. It would have been over. And he wouldn't be remembered now as the president that was impeached.

So it was really his own fault for having lied in the first place and then continuing to lie for month after month after month.

ZAHN: But you don't think or you wouldn't acknowledge that his enemies of the right wing were equally obsessed with him as he was with his enemies?

REGNERY: Well, no more than the Democrats are obsessed with George W. Bush now or any other opposition party is obsessed with whoever happens to be in the White House or wherever it is on the other side. No, I don't think they were obsessed.

ZAHN: Congressman Barr, what do you say to analysts out there who are suggesting that this impeachment was a great distraction to the country and might have slowed down any kind of progress that was being made on the hunt for Osama bin Laden and better understanding his web of terror?

BARR: Well, the fact of the matter is that the Clinton administration did not pay enough attention to Osama bin Laden. The president did not pay enough attention to developing a coherent plan against terrorism. And he can try all he wants to blame that on Monica Lewinsky or Ken Starr or Bob Barr or whoever.

But the fact of the matter is that the president of the United States, whoever he or she might be, has, at their disposal, a vast array of information and levers that they can pull to do certain things. And if they simply choose not to, then they have to suffer the consequences that history may bestow on them.

ZAHN: Gentlemen, we've got to leave it there this evening. Congressman Barr, Al Regnery, thank you both.

BARR: Thanks, Paula.

REGNERY: Thank you.

ZAHN: And coming up on Thursday, you'll hear from the former president himself. He will be Larry king's guest for the hour in his first live prime-time interview.

And coming up next, fearful days for Americans working in Saudi Arabia. You'll hear from one woman about the dangers her husband faces and why he says his company will not let him leave.

We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The thousands of Americans and other Westerners living in Saudi Arabia are faced with a stark decision: to remain or leave as soon as possible.

The beheading of American engineer Paul Johnson Jr. last week showed in horrifying terms the dangers of staying amid a campaign of terror by militants linked to al Qaeda.

But for many, leaving is not a simple matter. For example, one American works for a Saudi company that requires 90 days' notice to leave. Otherwise, he has to forfeit moving and travel expenses and bonus pay.

His wife, Maria Exposito, is in Washington. She joins us now to talk about the difficult decision he's facing now.

Good of you to join us tonight. First of all, how afraid is your husband right now as he stays in Saudi Arabia?

MARIA EXPOSITO, HUSBAND WORKS IN SAUDI ARABIA: Well, he -- he used not to be afraid. He's a 20-year veteran from the Air Force, but lately he has been frightened. He has told me that he sleeps with a knife next to his bed and he has put booby traps, noisy booby traps up to his bedroom so he knows what's happening while he's asleep.

ZAHN: I know the last time you spoke with him is yesterday.

EXPOSITO: Yesterday.

ZAHN: Has he talked with you in any meaningful way about what impact the beheading of Paul Johnson Jr. has done to his own sense of vulnerability?

EXPOSITO: Well, he feels very unsafe, especially with the problems of security on his own compound, so they're all scared. They know that they are not as safe as they thought they were.

ZAHN: So let me get this straight. On one hand, you have the State Department recommending that he try to go home. He's gone to his employees, a Saudi Arabian company, and they basically said, "yes, you can go, but you've got to give us three months' notice. And oh, by the way, if you leave before that, you forfeit your bonus pay?"

EXPOSITO: That's correct.

ZAHN: So what is your husband weighing right now? As he confronts this horrible decision?

EXPOSITO: Well, right now, he's 54 years old, so he knows when he comes home, he's so specialized from his veteran services, that he's not going to be able to find the right job.

It is in his contract. He has to give them 90 days notice if he wants to leave, but he signed the contract before the escalation in violence, so I think that they should review that -- that clause. If he comes back right now, first of all, he cannot, he has to ask for his passport that his company is holding. And if he comes back home, it's going to be leaving him poorer than when he left. That's basically what he's told me, I didn't go through all that to come home poorer than when I left.

ZAHN: So is there any indication at this hour that either the U.S. embassy is going to help you out or the Saudi government?

EXPOSITO: Well, the -- the Saudi embassy, my husband contacted Mr. James Oberwetter, our ambassador over there and they cannot do anything. They consider that a labor dispute.

ZAHN: And what are you telling your husband to do?

EXPOSITO: I want my husband to come home, especially after what he has told me about his compound. It was one of the compounds that was bombed on May 12 last year and, from what he says, the back gate that was blown up has not been repaired yet, and they cannot trust the security guards who sometimes are seen sleeping during duty.

And in another instance, some of the security guards and some of the compound personnel from third world countries are not being paid for six months, which makes them most susceptible to bribes.

So I'm very scared. I want him to come home, but I'm not there to drag him back.

ZAHN: But I think what the audience also needs to understand was the whole reason for your husband to go back to Saudi Arabia in 2003 was that he couldn't find work in the United States.

EXPOSITO: Exactly.

ZAHN: Finally tonight, help us better understand how your husband, who's sleeping at night in bed with a knife next to him, is weighing this decision. If he could get his passport tonight from the company, would he leave without his bonus pay and pay his own way home?

EXPOSITO: No. He cares about our children, and he knows our financial situation. He wants my daughter to finish college.

He knows that when he comes back at 54, he's not going to find a job. He's too specialized. And he's risking his life, according to me, he's risking his life to help our family.

I want him to come home, but he won't come home because he thinks that that's the money and that's things that is due to him and he doesn't want to forfeit it.

Like he said, he would have gone there instead of away from us for nothing. So he wants what is due to him and come now, because the circumstances are different than when he signed the contract. Now it's -- it's not a labor dispute, it's -- it's a matter of life and death. ZAHN: Well, we wish your family luck.

EXPOSITO: Thank you.

ZAHN: I guess it's going to be hard for a lot of people to understand how it ever came to this.

EXPOSITO: And -- and what I want the public is know is that in his compound, things are not being done to keep those people safe. And my husband is alone and that's why he can make that decision, but we still have children. We still have families over there who are in the same situation. And it would be too costly for those families to come on their own with their own money. And that's why they're still there. But where my husband is staying, they still have children.

ZAHN: Our hearts go out to all of them. Maria Exposito, thank you for sharing your story tonight.

EXPOSITO: Thank you so much for having me and allowing me to say it.

ZAHN: Our pleasure.

EXPOSITO: Thank you.

ZAHN: Now we're going to get the Saudi government's perspective on this. Joining us now from Washington is Nail al-Jubeir, spokesman for Saudi Arabia's embassy to the United States.

Welcome, sir.

For starters, given that the United States State Department has asked Americans to leave Saudi Arabia, is it fair that a Saudi Arabian company is holding the passport of an American worker and telling him that he can't leave because he hasn't given them 90 days notice and if he does go home early, he has to pay his own way home and he forfeits his bonus. Is that fair?

NAIL AL-JUBEIR, SAUDI EMBASSY SPOKESPERSON: Well, it's an issue, it's a business dispute. I think the U.S. government, U.S. embassy in Riyadh has said so.

It is tragic. It is unfortunate in the lives we're living in right now, but at the end of the day, it is a business decision.

Do I think people that do not feel safe in Saudi Arabia need to decide to whether to leave or not is their decision. At the end they also have to figure out in terms of the financial aspects of it.

It is tragic. There are probably thousand of cases like this where it becomes an issue of money whether they should give up a job and go home or not. But it's a business dispute. I haven't heard the other side of it. I did hear Maria's case, and it is very tragic.

ZAHN: So, sir, do you think Maria Exposito's husband is safe? If he stays on in Saudi Arabia, given what just happened to Paul Johnson Jr.?

AL-JUBEIR: I think it is -- it is -- Saudi Arabia is safe, but I will not sit here and say every person living in Saudi Arabia is safe. That is something I will not say.

It is a decision that they have to make. We believe it is safe. We are -- The war on terrorism in Saudi Arabia is turning. We have received some of the biggest criminals in Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, it took the tragic death of Johnson to bring the headlines to what's going on in Saudi Arabia. It is a war we're fighting, and this is something we intend of winning.

ZAHN: But Mrs. Exposito just described in great detail that the compound where her husband is living is not safe. He feels so vulnerable right now, he's actually sleeping with a knife.

AL-JUBEIR: You know, we're back to the same issue. And the issue is if -- you know, it is a business decision. It's a decision that the company has to make and something the company needs to address with the company, whether people who have a legal binding contract can get out of the contract.

From what I understand, the company is allowing him to leave, but they're not paying him the signing bonus. And they're not paying him the -- the -- I believe it was the round trip ticket.

ZAHN: Sure.

AL-JUBEIR: It's a business decision, and he and the company have to decide it.

ZAHN: But isn't that -- Isn't that a terrible position to be put into as an American worker who does not feel safe living in Saudi Arabia?

AL-JUBEIR: Well, it's not only being a terrible position to be put in as an American. It's being in a terrible position to be in as any nationality, where you have to decide whether you have to forfeit your pay to leave or not. That is a terrible decision that any person has to make.

The way I look at it at the end of the day is do you feel safe enough to stay or do you think that it's better for you to leave? These are decisions that we all have to make.

ZAHN: Mr. Al-Jubeir, we've got to leave it there this evening. Thank you very much for joining us.

AL-JUBEIR: Thank you for having me.

ZAHN: When we come back, why American soldiers accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners think Defense Secretary Rumsfeld could help their defense.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: In Baghdad today, pretrial hearings opened for two or three soldiers charged in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal.

Specialist Charles Graner is accused of jumping on detainees as they were piled on the floor. Sergeant Javal Davis is accused of maltreating prisoners, stomping on their hands and feet and putting them on a pile on the floor so other soldiers could assault them. The hearing for a third soldier, Sergeant Ivan "Chip" Frederick, was postponed because his civilian lawyer failed to appear.

To give us the latest on what happened in court today, let's turn to chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour, who joins us from Baghdad this evening.

Christiane, what did we learn about the kind of defense that will be pursued in these cases?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a couple of things. Two of the lawyers said that they want to just dismiss this case. They're going to call command interference. In other words, they say commanders have unlawfully and improperly influenced the proceedings to the extent that they can't get a fair trial.

But absent that, they're going to try, they say, to have a two- prong defense, one of those prongs implying that they were just following orders, their clients.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUY WOMACK, ATTORNEY FOR SGT. CHARLES GRANER: The M.P.'s, Specialist Graner and the others, were following what they believed to be lawful orders. They were ordered by military intelligence officers to do certain things, to soften up these prisoners. They were encouraged to do things. They were congratulated for how well they were doing it. And they believed they were doing something that was lawful as part of the war on terrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: What they seem to want to do is to try to create an environment in which they can prove a climate of permissibility, a permissive climate that allowed this kind of heavy-handed interrogation.

ZAHN: So, Christiane, the lawyers for these defendants have been given permission to interview top military generals, but they have told you that's not good enough. They actually want to question Secretary Rumsfeld.

What do they think they're going to learn from him that they won't learn from these generals?

AMANPOUR: Well, they have actually now got this permission, as you said correctly, to interview the top generals right up to General Abizaid, who is the commander of all forces in this region. So it's moving up the chain of command.

And they say to us that while they do not for a moment imply that Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld has done anything wrong, they believe that he and other members of the administration, quote, "loosened the reins" on what is permissible in terms of interrogation and extracting information. And that is what they want to get from questioning.

They told us they want to depose Donald Rumsfeld. At least Graner's lawyers said that to us.

ZAHN: And the process from here on out is pretty complicated. What is the very next step?

AMANPOUR: Well, there are a couple of more pretrial hearings. As you mentioned one of those, Frederick, who is associated with that iconic image of the man with the hood standing on the box of military rations with the electric wires from his body.

He had his stopped today because his defense lawyer didn't turn up, so that is going to have to take place in a month.

Then they are going to have to finish all their witness gathering and evidence gathering by July 31. And then they say, the lawyers, to us that they'll need at least several more months before they're ready for trial.

So they told us no earlier than October, but the U.S. military side said that they thought that maybe these trials, the actual court- martial trials could get underway mid-August.

ZAHN: All right, Christiane. I want to close tonight with the latest on the four Marines who were killed in Ramadi today. What have we learned about their deaths?

AMANPOUR: Well, this news started seeping out earlier this morning, and what we learned this afternoon was that, indeed, four Marines had been killed.

What happened, they say, is they sent out a rapid reaction force when it turned out that these Marines had not established contact with their command or their headquarters at an appointed time like they were supposed to.

Once that deadline was missed, they sent out a rapid reaction force, and they found bodies in a building site area in Ramadi, which as you know is such a hotbed of Sunni and extremism and anti- Americanism, Ramadi, Fallujah and that whole Sunni Triangle area.

ZAHN: The kind of news we've been warned to expect, not the kind we want to hear. Christiane Amanpour, thank you for the update.

For an in-depth look now at the hearings of soldiers charged in the abuse scandal, we turn to an expert on military law. Eugene Fidel heads the military practice group at the Feldsman-Tucker law firm in Washington. He is also the founder of the National Institute of Military Justice. He joins us now from Washington.

Welcome, sir.

EUGENE FIDEL, FOUNDER, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF MILITARY JUSTICE: Thanks, Paula.

ZAHN: So two attorneys representing those charged in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal have suggested that they are not only interested in the top military generals, they want to question Donald Rumsfeld and the president of the United States. Is that going to happen?

FIDEL: I think that's somewhat unlikely. You know, that's a tall order. On the other hand, I don't think you can entirely rule it out because of all the evidence that's been sort of filtering out through the series of leaks that we've had over the last several months.

I think there are going to be some tough issues that are going to have to be faced by the military judge in this case.

ZAHN: But, sir, what is it that these attorneys would extract from the president and the defense secretary that they're not going to get from the top military generals?

FIDEL: Really, I think the issue, Paula, is whether they'll be able to launch a defense of obedience to orders. And in order to do that, they may try to connect the dots that link Secretary Rumsfeld or either link or don't link Secretary Rumsfeld to the transmission of information down through the official hierarchy to the people who are actually on duty at Abu Ghraib.

And ditto for President Bush. There were, obviously, memos that were addressed to the president's lawyer and presumably from the president's lawyer to him that had to do with the treatment of detainees and what was permissible and what wasn't.

So the question is are they going to be able to connect those dots?

ZAHN: The defense strategy is clear at this hour; they're basically going to say their clients were following orders. Who has the burden of proof here?

FIDEL: That's one of the most interesting things. It turns out that under the manual for courts-martial, it's the responsibility of the prosecutor, called the trial counsel in a court-martial, to show that the defense of obedience to orders doesn't exist.

That's the opposite of the way you would expect it and, more than that, it's a responsibility of the prosecutor to show that the defense doesn't apply beyond a reasonable doubt.

So it's really going to be interesting to see how the provision of the manual for courts-martial plays out in these particular cases.

ZAHN: I know it's treacherous to ask an attorney to look through a crystal ball here, but what's going to happen to these men and the women linked to this abuse scandal?

FIDEL: The answer to your question, Paula, as you know, is we don't know yet. This whole chain of events that began, really, on 9/11 has taken us into one sort of wilderness of the law after another, beginning with the Walker Lindh case and on through one obscure area after another.

I think we're in another set of totally unpredictable and unpredicted facts, and I would say hold the phone.

And at least I would say let's keep an eye on this. This is much more important stuff than a lot of the other things that have been calling -- driving our attention span over the last few months. This is much more important than you know, sports figure crimes or things like that. So I'm applauding your dedication of time to this.

ZAHN: Well, thank you. And we will be counting you in the months ahead to help us all better understand the complexity of what we're looking at here. Eugene Fidel, thanks for your time.

FIDEL: My pleasure.

ZAHN: When we come back, with the help of an American coach, a young Iraqi athlete carries his country's hopes and dreams to the summer Olympics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Iraqis are enduring bombings, sabotage and protests as they struggle to rebuild their nation. But they are also looking toward the future, and one sign of that is the Iraqi Olympic boxing team, whose coach is an unlikely American.

Bruce Burkhardt reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAURICE WATKINS, OLYMPIC COACH: Go forward! Forward! Forward!

BRUCE BURKHARDT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Maurice "Termite" Watkins was at one time a successful boxer, with a record of 58 wins, five losses and 48 knockouts. But this, this is the high point.

Termite is coach of the Iraqi boxing team and Najaf Ali -- he's in red trunks -- is fighting here in Atlanta in a pre-Olympic bout. He's Termite's pride and joy.

WATKINS: He's the most fabulous person I've ever known.

BURKHARDT: Termite never set out to be the Iraqi boxing coach. He went to Iraq 14 months ago as an exterminator under contract with the military.

(on camera) When word of his boxing skills got out, a coalition official asked Termite what he thought the chances were of Iraq being able to send a boxer to the Olympics.

WATKINS: I have to be honest with you, slim to none. I said, "You may have one in a million chance." He said, "Great! We don't need the million! All we need is one. As long as we've got a chance we'll do it." And he says, "I expect you to get it done," and so here we are today.

BURKHARDT: Najaf Ali, featherweight, is going to the Olympics in Athens, the first boxer from Iraq since 1992.

NAJAF ALI, IRAQI BOXING TEAM: When I go to the ring, I'm carrying a Iraq flag with me. That way I carry all of Iraq with me.

BURKHARDT: A lot to carry on his 106-pound frame, but Termite who's developed a bond with Najaf that goes way behind the coach- athlete relationship, has no words.

WATKINS: He's got the biggest heart in the world. He loves everybody. He has the best outlook on life and especially considering what they have been there.

BURKHARDT: When Termite took over the boxing team, he found a team in shambles. Half the team was barefoot and boxing not on a canvas, but a wooden floor with splinters. The biggest obstacle was mental.

WATKINS: Because having fun is not nothing they had done before. As a matter of fact, they thought out of the fear of what could happen instead of out of the joy of the sport.

BURKHARDT: You might remember who was once in charge of Iraq's Olympic team, Uday Hussein, son of Saddam, who reportedly punished, even tortured athletes who lost.

But Termite brought something else to his athletes: an unrelenting optimism.

He made the decision to go to Iraq. His wife tried to talk him out of it.

WATKINS: But I told her, I said, "I think I'm the one that can change Iraq."

And she says -- She started crying and she said, "You can't go around changing countries!"

And I said, "No, but I can try."

Najaf, fight! Fight, fight, fight! Fight Najaf, fight!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Nice story. Our own Bruce Burkhardt. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And that wraps it up for us this evening. Thanks so much for being with us. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. Hope to see you again tomorrow night. Good night.

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