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Paula Zahn Now

Interview With Bishop T.D. Jakes; Partisan State of American Politics; Cheney Drops 'F' Bomb

Aired June 25, 2004 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): He's a strutter.

BISHOP T.D. JAKES, THE POTTER'S HOUSE: There is a place that God has prepared for me!

ZAHN: A sermonizer.

JAKES: You are more than conqueror. Shout yes!

ZAHN: A Grammy-nominated singer, a shepherd with a fast growing flock.

JAKES: I think that there's a great deal of hunger in our country right now for spirituality.

ZAHN: Tonight, the man "TIME" magazine called America's best preacher, T.D. Jakes.

And the vice president drops the F-bomb. Frustration, four- letter words and the increasingly crabby state of American politics.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Good evening. Thanks so much for joining us tonight as we wrap up the week here.

Those stories ahead but, first, tonight, the Los Angeles Police Department will investigate three of its own for allegedly using excessive force in an arrest that was caught on videotape. A local station followed police on Wednesday as they pursued the driver of a stolen vehicle. The car chase turned foot race ended when the suspect, identified as 36-year-old Stanley Miller stopped, as you saw, raised his hands.

An officer then tackled him. Another officer identified as John Hatfield allegedly kicked Miller and then hit him 11 times with a metal flashlight. Miller is said to have had minor injuries and was treated at a hospital, the arrest, of course, bringing back memories of the 1991 LAPD Beating of Rodney King.

The FBI and L.A. County Sheriff's Department are also investigating. All eight officers who were at the scene have been placed on desk duty. L.A.'s mayor has condemned the apparent use of excessive force.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES HAHN, MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES: I want the kind of investigation that leaves no stone unturned, does not pull any punches, but gets to the bottom of this and ensures the community and assures a community that LAPD will not tolerate unlawful use of force in any situation here in the community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Joining us now to discuss the investigation, the man at the center of the storm, Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton.

Always good to see you, sir. Welcome.

What do you see when you look at the videotape of this arrest?

WILLIAM BRATTON, LOS ANGELES POLICE CHIEF: I don't think any of us when we look at that videotape, particularly first reaction, like what we see.

My role, however, is to go beyond that, the initial significant concern I have at what I'm looking at is to determine what was actually happening at that scene. We're looking at helicopter perspectives from about 700 feet in the air, so our investigation will attempt to determine those 11 strikes by the police officer using the flashlight, were those head strikes, were they against a shoulder?

We do have a policy that allows in certain instances not head strikes, but certain body blows, the use of a flashlight during the course of a struggle.

ZAHN: I guess the question I have for you, it sort of doesn't matter what angle you look at this from. Does it appear to you as this man is being chased that, in fact, he raises his hands is going down to his knees even before he is tackled?

BRATTON: That's correct. And what we will determine, is the use of force by all of the officers involved appropriate under our guidelines?

So it's -- we're not downplaying this at all, just the opposite, Paula. The actions we're taking, this is of great concern to us. Certainly, the comments made by the mayor reflect that. And we will do a very thorough investigation. We are also added by the fact that we are under the Federal Consent Decree and have significantly enhanced our investigations and our public investigations of these type of incidents.

ZAHN: Have these officers told you or anybody on your investigative team why they did what they did?

BRATTON: We have had interviews with all of the officers involved, a couple of compelled interviews under our guidelines out here. And that will be part of the investigation as we view this incident.

We're in the process of enhancing the videotape so that we can get a closer look at what was going on down there, match that up against the statement of the officers. We have several different civilian eyewitnesses whose stories contradict each other at this particular time.

So as always in these cases, there will be no rush to judgment. We're not downplaying what appears on that video. There is no ability to downplay it. It does not look good, but the obligation is to give those officers as well as the suspect due process and a thorough, thorough investigation.

ZAHN: Let's play for you now part of a news conference held by a group called Project Islamic Hope.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAJEE ALI, PROJECT ISLAMIC HOPE: Our message to the Chief Bratton is, if you don't get rid of these rogue officers, we'll get rid of you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Do you feel your job is on the line here if there is not what the public speaker perceives as a satisfactory result?

BRATTON: That is not the public. That's one of the biggest nitwits in Los Angeles. That group that you talk about consists of him. He has an extensive past history, if you will.

He speaks for nobody but himself. And, unfortunately, you and many of the media out here constantly run to the same individual. I guess he's our version -- an earlier version of the Reverend Sharpton, except, in the case of Reverend Sharpton, he was able to rally people around him. This character, basically, do you see a big army of supporters behind him? He's got a big mouth is about all he's got.

ZAHN: So you don't feel embattled at this hour?

BRATTON: I'm not embattled with this community. We have spent extensive time working with the African-American community. John Mack of the Urban League was in my office for an hour yesterday, who has agreed to serve on a board that the mayor is putting together.

My relationship with the African-American community in the city is a strong one, a very strong one, both with the political leadership, community leaders and in the community. That nitwit that you were interviewing, basically, you're doing a disservice to your viewership and a disservice to the citizens of this city by putting him on camera.

You need to check out the credentials, if you will, of some of these people that you choose. They make good camera, they make good TV, but they don't make good common sense.

ZAHN: We didn't interview him, but we've been out in your community trying to monitor the reaction to this incident.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: One final question to you, sir, that a lot of people are wondering, including myself.

BRATTON: No, I would suggest, if you have not interviewed him, why are you showing that video? You've got an obligation if you're going to put somebody like him on TV, basically check out his credentials. He has no support in this community, none, none in the black community and certainly none in the rest of the community.

ZAHN: But you're not telling us tonight folks in your community aren't outraged by this? You know, they might not be asking for your job, but they're upset about this.

(CROSSTALK)

BRATTON: They are upset about it and they have a reason to be upset about it, but they're not in the streets demonstrating. We're in community meetings. We're talking about this. We're doing this in a thorough, organized way.

The community is outraged. They are upset. But this is a great community out here that works with us. We have great political leadership. We have great community leadership. That individual is certainly not one of them. Go talk to the John Macks who will express the outrage, but John Mack speaks for the African-American community. Go speak to the church leaders like Bishop Blake.

No, this story -- going to make a national story out of it, and it should be. Los Angeles has this history. But we've gone a long way to improving race relationships here, so go to the legitimate representatives of that community.

ZAHN: That's a question I have for you as we close out this interview. What do you think race had to do with this apparent or alleged use of excessive force? Do you think this man was allegedly attacked because he was a black man?

BRATTON: The issue of race in the United States is with us all the time. That's the history of this country. It's not just Los Angeles, not just the relations between the Los Angeles police and its African-American community.

It's a fact of life in America and something that I'm certainly committed to in my profession trying to change. I address the same issues in Boston, New York City.

ZAHN: Sure.

BRATTON: It's not an issue unique to Los Angeles. And maybe if we can get through this in a way that is oddly within the consent decree, we can show there is an improvement, that police can reduce crime, as we're doing it in this city. Police, when there is controversy, can talk in a reasonable way with our communities and, at the end of it, that we all come out of it feeling that we were able to express outrage, we were able to conduct an investigation and, at the end, that we end up with a reasonable solution.

ZAHN: I don't understand what you're saying, though. Do you believe he was attacked because of his race?

BRATTON: I do not believe that at all.

But what I'm saying in terms of so much interest here is generated by the issues of race in this country. Let's be real about this. This is a country that basically deals with race all the time and police are on the flash point of that. And so in this instance here, where a group of officers, a black female supervisor, two Latino officers, and five white male officers with a black suspect, one of the reasons this story has the legs, apart from the apparent aggression of the officer, is the fact that the issue of race.

Let's be candid about it. There is nothing to hide about this. One of the things that we can maybe get out of this is face these issues openly, that maybe we can heal the racial divide in this country that is so real and needs to be healed.

ZAHN: Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton, thank you for your time tonight. We appreciate it.

BRATTON: Thank you, Paula. Great to be with you.

ZAHN: And when we come, he is the meat and tomatoes of the campaign. She's spicing it up, a look at the other half of the Kerry equation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: During presidential campaigns, the candidates are scrutinized, analyzed and criticized. Now, at some point during the race, their wives get the same treatment. And that is what is happening to Teresa Heinz Kerry, the wife of Senator John Kerry.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Everywhere she goes, people fall in love with Teresa.

ZAHN (voice-over): She's outspoken, she's controversial and she could soon be the first lady of the United States. She's also the widow of another senator, John Heinz of Pennsylvania. As heir to the Heinz ketchup fortune, she is worth hundreds of million and controls a philanthropic family foundation with an endowment of well over $1 billion.

It has been an unlikely life for the 65-year-old daughter of a Portuguese doctor raised in the African nation of Mozambique. Teresa Heinz Kerry threw her energy behind the campaign after early reservations about subjecting herself and her family to a grueling presidential race.

TERESA HEINZ KERRY, WIFE OF SENATOR JOHN KERRY: I really felt it would be really not wise and actually selfish if I kept him from running, And so I made peace with that. And, of course, once I make peace with something and I believe in all these issues and the fact that he can make a contribution, I've soldiered behind him.

ZAHN: And she came out swinging.

HEINZ KERRY: What I've said is if my own name, my family's name is in any way besmirched, seriously besmirched, that I as an American citizen have the right to deal with it. I can go to court. I can defend myself.

ZAHN: Heinz Kerry is willing to speak out on just about everything, from her regular Botox treatments to her prenuptial agreement with Senator Kerry. Last week, she told "Elle" magazine what she would do to a straying husband: "I used to say to my husband, my late husband, if you ever get something, I'll maim you. I won't kill you. I'll maim you."

Her candor has been, at times, a lightning rod for critics but others say that Heinz Kerry has injected some much-needed energy into a highly scripted campaign.

HEINZ KERRY: When people think that I might be a little blunt or opinionated, I have something to say. It's time that women, like men, who know and have opinions be called smart and well-informed and not opinionated.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Joining us now is best-selling author Gail Sheehy, who has written an article about Teresa Heinz Kerry for the upcoming issue of "Mother Jones" magazine.

Always good to see you.

GAIL SHEEHY, AUTHOR/JOURNALIST: Happy to be here.

ZAHN: So, when we see the portrait that you paint of her in this article, one wonders if is this a woman who is simply too accomplished, too independent, too outspoken to succeed as a potential first lady.

SHEEHY: Well, you know, she's very refreshing.

We just haven't seen her likes before. She's unpredictable. She's funny. She's sexy. And she knows she's sexy and she's 65 years old and five years older than her husband. So that will come as some good news to some of the women of America. She is accomplished.

But, you know, I don't think people know how recent that is. Her complete identity changed when she was 52 when her senator husband to whom she had been married for 25 years was killed in a plane crash. And she had to take over a $1.3 billion foundation, a huge enterprise. I asked her how long it took her to make that leap. She said a week.

ZAHN: What do we know about her politics? Where is she on issues?

SHEEHY: She's socially progressive, but she's very economically tight. She's a tight-fisted woman.

She makes people come up with business plans before they can get money from her foundation, which came as a shock to them, because they thought the Heinz will just always give money. But she's not interested in being a politician. That's why she's really different from Hillary. She could have been a senator. She could have inherited her husband's seat or run for it after he was killed. Republicans were urging her to do so, but she have any interest in that.

ZAHN: What is her concern, though, if John Kerry is elected president about her being able to continue to run this foundation, because there would be of conflicts of interests down the road.

SHEEHY: Absolutely.

Well, she's very conflicted. She's very tense about that. You push her button and say, OK, Richard Mellon Scaife, who tried to take down the Clinton presidency, has attacked you because some of your foundation grants find their way into groups like Greenpeace that an archconservative like Scaife thinks is out on the left fringe. And she would say, I don't do policy. I don't do policy. I never push. I never push.

ZAHN: What's interesting about Teresa, though, is that she has made it clear from day one she wasn't too crazy about the idea of her husband running for the presidency.

SHEEHY: That's right.

ZAHN: And there was a concern on the campaign's part that maybe she was being too forthright and that she might hurt it.

SHEEHY: Yes.

ZAHN: Where do things stand now?

SHEEHY: Well, what's interesting when one follows her is, she's very well received on the campaign trail because she is so unscripted and funny. And, you know, she swears for a tension reliever.

And she also talks about being from Africa, a daughter of Africa and talks in Spanish to Hispanic audiences and talks as a new American to new Americans, so she is very different. She's much more interesting to watch than he is. She scowls. She smiles. She fumbles with her buttons. She will suddenly pop out with something. She's really quite a treat in an otherwise overly scripted political campaign.

ZAHN: What is the most surprising thing you learned about her, either from talking with her or watching her?

SHEEHY: That she's a woman who has changed her identity in her 50s and she's, like many in that generation, really, really protective of it. She will not give that up. And that is going to put her at odds with the political handlers, who will say, you know, a little bit less with the political opinions and the big CEO of the philanthropy and a little more of the starry-eyed gaze at your husband.

ZAHN: Well, it's a fascinating article. Thank you for sharing it with us tonight.

SHEEHY: Thank you.

ZAHN: And coming up next, you're going to meet the man some say is the next Billy Graham, the power and the glory of T.D. Jakes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: People looking for God have certainly found T.D. Jakes. Thousands of worshipers have been flocking to Atlanta, Georgia, this week to hear him speak at a four-day spiritual event called MegaFest. It's a crowd that many other preachers can only dream about.

So who is T.D. Jakes? Eric Philips has some answers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAKES: I'm going into another dimension. I'm going to go into a phone booth like Clark Kent, but I'm coming out of that booth looking like Superman. This is your year to turn into Superman!

ERIC PHILIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What is it about Bishop T.D. Jakes' message.

JAKES: I'm dealing with issues. Pray for me.

PHILIPS: That causes even grown men to weep and leap?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's very real. He deals with real issues, real life issues that people deal with every day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's way up here in the level of knowledge in the Bible and stuff. And he kind of draws down to the crowd and acts at their level.

PHILIPS: Jakes is the founder of MegaFest, a first of its kind Christian convention offering spiritual renewal and empowerment with workshops catering individually to men, women, and children.

(on camera): One hundred thousand preregistered for MegaFest and organizers say the final numbers aren't in, but they say by the time it's all said and done, 130,000 or more will have made their way to Atlanta for this conference.

JAKES: I think that there is a great deal of hunger in our country right now for spirituality. You know how church folks do this. They always do like the smell test.

PHILIPS (voice-over): There is also a hunger for Jakes' keeping- it-real style. Like a pied piper, he draws those from all cultures and socioeconomic classes, even celebrities.

MAGIC JOHNSON, FORMER NBA PLAYER: When you hear him speak, you just get glued. You can't even go to the restroom. You don't want to miss anything.

PHILIPS: Jakes hit the national scene in 1993 with his self- published "Woman, Thou Art Loosed." It sold more than two million copes. Today, he has got nearly 30 books on the shelves.

JAKES: You can overcome. You are more than a conqueror.

PHILIPS: "TIME" magazine called Jakes America's best preacher. He's also been dubbed the next Billy Graham.

JAKES: Comparisons make it comfortable for people who need to describe who you are in 300 words or less. But really most of us are far more complicated than to be a duplication of somebody else.

The God that I'm preaching about, he stoops down.

PHILIPS: Many attending this conference and his 28,000-member church in Dallas say Jakes is one of a kind, though he takes no credit for his success.

JAKES: I'm not the message. I'm the messenger. I'm not the mail. I'm the postman.

PHILIPS: A postman whose realm extends around the world.

JAKES: ... of my destiny!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And that was Eric Philips.

And joining us now from Atlanta is Bishop T.D. Jakes.

Welcome. Good to have you with us tonight, sir.

JAKES: Thank you, Paula. I'm delighted to be here.

ZAHN: So they're saying really nice things about you, the black Billy Graham, the new Jesse Jackson, America's best preacher. How would you define yourself?

JAKES: Oh, I really don't know what category to put myself in, in comparison with other people who have impacted their generation.

I just know that I'm real, real excited to see the vision come to pass as it relates to creating an atmosphere for families and friends to come together in this Christian and yet motivational atmosphere.

ZAHN: You have grown quite a flock. Where do you think you're connecting where others aren't?

JAKES: Well, I've thought about that quite a bit, Paula.

I really do think that we've touched a felt need in the community to understand that people are dealing with issues and crises and to be user friendly, sensitive to them. I have tried to find biblical answers to sociological ills and to encourage people, in spite of pains and traumas, to be all that they can be. That was the purpose of The Potter's House Church in Dallas, Texas, as I pastored there for the last eight years and even with MegaFest here in Atlanta.

ZAHN: I'm curious about something you just said. You said you have to be user-friendly. What does that mean, less like the churches maybe many of us went to growing up?

JAKES: Yes. Maybe the focus is not on being starchy and prudish and routines and rituals, but just open and sensitive to the need for people, the ability to hear, not so critical, but open to understand and embrace and encourage people, motivating them, rather than pushing and beating on them.

ZAHN: You have touched people's lives who are often forgotten, but in a general sense, what are people searching for who come to you?

JAKES: I think people, all of us, regardless of whether we come to church or not, what we really want out of life and out of other people is acceptance, for people not necessarily to condone our behavior, but to accept the fact that we are imperfect and flawed and in process.

And we all have that, whether we're in the pulpit or in the pews. It makes no difference. None of us are finished projects. And for a minister to be candid about that and embrace that and encourage people to be all that they can be while accepting them in the process is critical for their restoration.

ZAHN: So have you seen a change in people's spirituality over the last five, 10 years?

JAKES: I'm seeing a tremendous change and particularly since September 11 in this country.

I think a newfound respect for faith has emerged, not only because we're facing traumas and crises, but as the baby boomers get older and we realize that we're not going to be flower children after all, we're faced with some tough choices. We're burying our parents at this point. Our children are growing up and we're dealing with midlife issues.

And as we deal with those issues, spirituality becomes a focus like never before.

ZAHN: In spite of some of the very positive things that even critics are saying about you and your work, there are people out there who, of course, who say you're too flashy, you're too loud, you're too rich. What do you say to them?

JAKES: Well, the great thing about Christianity is that it's not monolithic.

You have a right to be your own person and have your own personality, our own flair. And I think that's reflected in the wide diversity of people that come to MegaFest, everybody from Natalie Cole down to people who are coming from homeless shelters. What we try to do is not compartmentalize people and make them be what we think they ought to be, but rather what God would have them to be.

And you have a right to be your own individual and have flair, if you are person that has flair, or be quiet and calm and sedate. We celebrate the uniqueness of every creature.

ZAHN: Well, I guess they can say just about anything because you've got a following.

Bishop T.D. Jakes, thanks for joining us.

JAKES: Thanks, Paula. It's been a joy.

ZAHN: And when we come back, profanity in politics. The vice president lets loose, but now is he sorry?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Comedian George Carlin once said there are no bad words, just bad thoughts. Well, that may be true, but when we hear certain words from certain people in certain places those words can still shock us. And they can still get people into trouble.

It happened to Vice President Cheney the other day when he lobbed a four-letter word at Senator Patrick Leahy on the Senate floor.

Leahy said he thought Cheney was, quote, "Just having a bad day, but also said he was shocked to hear that kind of language in the Senate."

By all -- by the way, all of this happened on the same day by a vote of 99-1, the Senate passed a Bill called the Defense of Decency Act.

Well, tonight, the vice president had this to say on Fox News' "Your World" with Neil Cavuto.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I expressed myself rather forcefully. I felt better after I had done it.

NEIL CAVUTO, HOST, "YOUR WORLD": Now, did you use the "F" word?

CHENEY: That's not the kind of language I usually use. CAVUTO: All right. Because the reports were that you did.

CHENEY: Yes. That's not the language I ordinarily use. But...

CAVUTO: What did you tell him?

CHENEY: I expressed my dissatisfaction with Senator Leahy. He is the kind of individual who will make those kinds of charges and then come after you as though he's your best friend, and I expressed in no uncertain terms my views of his conduct and walked away.

CAVUTO: Did you curse at him?

CHENEY: Probably.

CAVUTO: Do you have any regrets?

CHENEY: No. He had challenged my integrity and I didn't like that. But, most of all, I didn't like the fact that after he had done so, then he wanted to act like everything is peaches and cream.

And I informed him of my view of his conduct in no uncertain terms and as I say, I felt better afterwards. I think a lot of my colleagues felt that what I'd said badly needed to be said, that it was long overdue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: And tonight after seeing that interview, a spokesman for Senator Leahy had this to say. "It appears the vice president's previous calls for civility are now inoperative."

Joining us now, John Fund of "The Wall Street Journal."

So John, the vice president didn't deny he said that. Did he cross the line here?

JOHN FUND, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": I think it is always a mistake for someone when their words are going to be bandied about in public to use that kind of language, simply because of the example it sets for children.

On the other hand, I'm not going to say that the president -- the vice president should apologize to Senator Leahy because this is...

ZAHN: Why not?

FUND: This has a vicious season all long. John Kerry back in February in "Rolling Stone" used the "F" word to describe President Bush's role in Iraq.

ZAHN: But you're not saying just because one guy does it, it's OK for the other guy to?

FUND: No, I'm saying we have that poisonous -- we have that poisonous an atmosphere. Maybe this will be a little bit of a cooling off period.

ZAHN: Do you think the vice president is embarrassed that this became public?

FUND: I don't think he's going to do it again, and I don't think he would do it again.

ZAHN: Well, guess what? We have a debate partner for you on the other side.

FUND: Sure. I'm not surprised.

ZAHN: We're crossing our fingers. We hope to be joined by Matthew Miller of the Center for Progress and the author of "The Two Percent Solution" on the other side. Please stay tuned.

When we come back, we also have Jeanne Moos reminding us of some colorful language from both sides of the political aisle.

And a little bit later on, surprise testimony in the murder trial of Scott Peterson.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back. We're discussing Vice President's Cheney's choice words on the Senate floor. That's the "F" bomb controversy and reaction to it.

Joining us now, John Fund of the "Wall Street Journal" and in Los Angeles, Matthew Miller of the Center for American Progress and author of "The Two Percent Solution."

Welcome, gentlemen.

So Matthew, I don't know if you're able to hear John before the commercial break. He basically said the vice president probably should not have used that word, but he doesn't need to apologize to anyone. After all, it was John Kerry who uttered that same word in a magazine article months ago.

Your reaction to this whole controversy.

MATTHEW MILLER, AUTHOR, "THE TWO PERCENT SOLUTION": Well, the first thing is it does make you think that Dick Cheney is sort of cracking under the pressure when he feels compelled to curse out Pat Leahy on the Senate floor.

But the second thing is this laughable double standard that Cheney and the White House and the conservatives generally wanted to apply. Does anyone imagine -- and remember, he cursed out Pat Leahy for raising questions about whether the Halliburton no-bid contracts in Iraq should have been looked into.

Now, if Bill Clinton were president and Hillary Clinton's law firm got hundreds of millions of dollars in a no-bid contract in a foreign country after a war, I think the conservatives would be calling for her to be impeached!

So the idea it's not legitimate to ask questions about Halliburton's role when Dick Cheney was CEO up until the day he joined the ticket is crazy.

ZAHN: Is that what this is about, a double standard here, John?

FUND: Matt, lighten up. We've had Halliburton week. The Democrats have been pounding on this. We've had Halliburton month. We've had Halliburton for the whole last year.

No new evidence, no nothing. The story hasn't advanced one inch. Dick Cheney is frustrated.

ZAHN: All right. You're saying...

MILLER: Why is he cursing out a senator?

FUND: Well, you know, if you've been attacked unfairly for a year, sometimes you get frustrated. Sometimes you say things you shouldn't.

At least this administration is considering the sense. The FCC came out last year and said you can use the "F" word as long as it's a verb and not an act. I understand Dick Cheney was using it in that term.

ZAHN: John, give me a break? Isn't this the guy who campaigned for bringing back a sense of decency?

(CROSSTALK)

FUND: ... political atmosphere. We should have time-out for both sides. Maybe this is a marker that should say we have gone too far and let's pull back. Because otherwise this is -- we're going to head to a toxic waste dump by November at this rate.

MILLER: But it is -- What's sad, Paul, is that you've got -- you've Cheney cursing out a senator on the Senate floor the same day basically that a Republican senatorial candidate in Illinois is withdrawing from the race for what turns out to be somewhat unusual sexual behavior.

It's a sad day for me, because I expected more from the Republican Party that was going to really change the tone in Washington.

ZAHN: John, are you going to let him get away from that or does that laughter say it all?

FUND: Individuals -- Individuals do not have their sins visited upon their entire group. We've learned that in the past.

Look, Dick Cheney is frustrated because these attacks have been going on for a year. They haven't been advanced at all. The Supreme Court now says he doesn't have to turn over those documents on the energy task force. He's being vindicated.

He's a little tired. Maybe he should take a break. Maybe we should all take a break and not use this language, because by November it's going to get a whole lot worse unless we pull back.

MILLER: But it is the underlying issue, is the same "just trust us" mentality. That's what Cheney is essentially, through his cursing, saying to Pat Leahy, "How dare you question my integrity?"

We know there's lots of reasons for what the administration has done not to trust them so it's all fair to ask.

FUND: Guess what? We have the career civil service auditors here at the Defense Department on Dick Cheney's side. We have the Supreme Court who is on his side on the energy task force. I think those are pretty good ratifiers. Pretty good verifiers.

MILLER: John -- John, please calm down. I just don't want John to get to the point where he's going to throwing around the same kind of language we're seeing from the vice president these days.

ZAHN: I have known John for a long time! I don't think he's going there.

FUND: Matt, you're such a fair person I'm surprised at that one.

ZAHN: John, if you wouldn't mind standing by, I want to kind of do an historic review of the use of language by politicians and the amount of unwelcome attention it has gotten them over the years.

Jeanne Moos takes a look at that now for us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Swearing in is one thing. Swearing is another.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... major league (expletive).

MOOS: Remember when candidate George Bush referred to a reporter as an opening as a posterior anatomy, to which Dick Cheney replied, "Big-time!"

Well, now it's Mr. Cheney who's gone big time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He dropped the "F" bomb.

MOOS (on camera): He said the "F" word. He said "F" you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really?

MOOS: Did you hear what happened with...?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard Dick Cheney telling everybody to (expletive deleted) off. MOOS: See, now I have to bleep you!

(voice-over) Actually, the vice president only told off one person, Senator Patrick Leahy.

CAVUTO: Do you have any regrets?

CHENEY: No. I said it.

MOOS: Doesn't everybody curse these days?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (expletive deleted).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's actually swearing at someone and demeaning another human being.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Depends on the word. I mean, that would offend me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dick, just apologize!

MOOS: In an interview with "Rolling Stone" the "F" word rolled off Kerry's tongue: "Did I expect George Bush to (expletive deleted) it up as badly as he did? I don't think anybody did."

And after a snowboarding spill, Kerry was quoted as saying, "I don't fall down. That is son of a (expletive deleted) ran into me.

George Bush, the elder debated Geraldine Ferraro, then bragged, "We kicked a little (expletive deleted)."

And Barbara Bush once said of Geraldine Ferraro, "I'm not going to say it, but it rhymes with witch."

(on camera) Now, if you don't mind, this is Match the Politician to the Profanity Quiz.

"Major league a-hole." Who said that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was John Kerry.

MOOS: That was not John Kerry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was Barbara Bush?

MOOS: No, it wasn't Barbara Bush.

"F" Saddam, we're taking him out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's George Bush!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They always believe taking people out.

MOOS: Remember this one, "major league a-hole?" You don't remember that one? You're failing the quiz! (voice-over) Funny that just when Dick Cheney gets caught cursing, Madonna is cleaning up her act by charging those working for her five bucks every time they swear.

Politicians must envy Bulworth, the fictional Senator who, thinking he's going to die, liberated his language.

WARREN BEATTY, ACTOR: Oh, (expletive deleted) (expletive deleted) (expletive deleted). That's the real obscenity black folks living with everyday is trying to believe a (expletive deleted) word Democrats and Republicans say.

MOOS: But how do you say the unsayable? "The Washington Post" wrote out the entire "F" word uttered by Vice President Cheney, but referred to Mr. Bush's earlier discretion as "expletive."

While "The New York Times" never even got as the "F," opting for "an obscene phrase to describe what he thought Mr. Leahy should do."

And all of those hyphens and missing letters? Think of it as the Morse code of cursing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: All right. So bottom line here, John Fund, if it's an act, it's off-limits?

FUND: According to the Federal Communications System.

ZAHN: OK. Got that down.

So Matthew, what are we to learn about the consistency with which politicians have used this kind of language over the years?

MILLER: I guess it happens, Paula, but I think all of us should realize that when people like Cheney and others in the conservative movement tend to be holier than thou about what their life is in public life, I think it's time to get off their high horse.

And I do think it's evidence that there's a little cracking going on and a little strain, because Cheney is not a guy who you would ordinarily think would feel like he had to curse out Pat Leahy on the Senate floor.

ZAHN: Is he too thin-skinned, John Fund?

FUND: No. I think he was engaging in some instant therapy.

ZAHN: Therapy? What? It's a catharsis, saying that to your esteemed colleague?

FUND: He shouldn't have said it, but all politicians have become much more coarse. In fact, we're going to have Tourette's Syndrome among politicians if we don't stop doing this.

ZAHN: Well, let's talk right off the bat now. FUND: Let's not take this too seriously.

ZAHN: But the Democrat senatorial campaign committee is already circulating e-mails tonight, quote, "Tell your friends about V.P. Cheney's potty-mouth."

How far is this going to go, Matthew?

MILLER: Well, certainly to the extent is shows a kind of hypocrisy or a double standard, as I said, I think that's a legitimate issue.

And the idea that, again, that the folks in the White House may hold themselves out, especially to certain members of the Christian base, the Christian conservative movement that they try to appeal so, I think that this just shows that a lot of their behavior may be behind closed doors, maybe when it slips out under the strain isn't quite in sync with the image they're trying to portray.

FUND: I'm not going to play amateur psychologist. I'll just make one policy point.

There is still no evidence that Dick Cheney did favors for Halliburton while he was vice president. That's the policy point, and the independent auditors of the Pentagon agree with that.

MILLER: Do you agree it's legitimate to look into and that the conservatives would be blasting Hillary Clinton if her law firm had a no-bid, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollar contract? Of course, it's legitimate to look into, John, my good friend John.

FUND: Criticism is fine. At some point, you're going to have a dry hole after a year and that's where we are.

ZAHN: All right, gentlemen. We're going to have to end on that note. John Fund, Matthew Miller. Dying to see what the two of you would say behind closed doors to each other.

FUND: "Hello, precious!"

ZAHN: "Hello, nice to see you, honey!"

What you won't hear and why in the trial of Michael Jackson. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: There have been some major developments this weekend. Two closely watched court cases.

Today a judge in the Michael Jackson case has ruled that grand jury transcripts and search warrants will remain sealed.

Several news organizations, including CNN, had wanted some of those documents open to the public, but the judge said that would jeopardize Jackson's right to a fair trial. Jackson has pleaded not guilty to charges of child molestation and he was not at today's hearing.

Meanwhile, it has been a rough week for the prosecution in the Scott Peterson murder trial. Yesterday, a Modesto police detective admitted that he did not include a witness report in a transcript of a taped interview.

The witness had said Laci Peterson was seen at the warehouse used to store her husband's boat.

Well, the prosecution had contended that Laci did not know her husband even had a boat and said Scott used it to dump her body. Laci's hair was found in that boat.

The developments follow the dismissal of a juror this week who later told the media he wasn't convinced that Peterson killed his wife.

If you can keep up with all of this, good luck.

Joining us to discuss these cases and the latest in the Kobe Bryant case, here in New York CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. In Santa Barbara, where we all should be, Associated Press special correspondent Linda Deutsche.

Nice to have both of you with us tonight.

Linda, let's start with you. In the hearings today, the judge actually commented on some of the difficulties he's going to encounter in trying to give Michael Jackson a fair trial. What did he say?

LINDA DEUTSCHE, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Judges are concerned about celebrities having a special role in the justice system. This is something I never thought we would really come to, since most judges want to treat everyone the same.

But he said he was finding it very exasperating to try to give Michael Jackson a fair trial and that he had to weigh everything. He had to weigh the evidence between giving Michael a fair trial and between satisfying First Amendment requirements for keeping information open.

ZAHN: So can Michael Jackson get a fair trial ultimately?

DEUTSCHE: It seems that anyone can get a fair trial in this country. I'm of that opinion. I'm a great believer in the jury system. I think that in the end the system adjusts to whoever is before the bar.

Obviously, there is great interest in the case, and the judge's reaction is to keep everything sealed, to put a lid of secrecy on this case, which is very disturbing, and which the media is fighting.

The public does have a right to know what's going on in these cases, and in a celebrity case, the interest is even more heightened. So it's a question of do you close off everything because everyone is interested in it? That seems to be the prevailing view right now.

ZAHN: Well, I think the picture is a little clearer in the Scott Peterson case at this hour. It was not a good week for the prosecution, was it?

JEFF TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It was not a good week, and it was especially bad at two levels. Because that -- that document you talked about, the failure to disclose that a witness said Laci was near the boat, it's a disaster at two levels.

One is it really undermines trust in the prosecution and the police, and that's something, once lost, is really hard to recover. Second, it may address the best piece of physical evidence against Scott Peterson, which is that hair.

ZAHN: Because there's no way of explaining how it got there?

TOOBIN: Right. Because the prosecution will assert that the hair got in there, got in the boat when Scott used the boat to dispose of her body. Here, we have a completely innocent alternative explanation of how the hair could have got in the boat during this visit to the -- you know, just before she died.

ZAHN: Let's turn now to the Kobe Bryant case, an important week next week when we have yet another -- say that again.

Let's turn now to the Kobe Bryant case. Big week next week when there's yet another discussion of the accuser's sexual history. What is at stake here?

TOOBIN: Well, it's extraordinary. Just as Linda was talking about in the Michael Jackson case, in the Kobe Bryant case, we had eight days of hearings in total secrecy what is almost certainly going to be the crucial issue in the case, which is how much of the accuser's background, her sexual history, emotional history, mental health history, how much of that is going to be admissible? Is that consistent with the rape shield law or isn't it?

I mean, that is going to determine a lot of how this trial goes, and we should get a ruling next week. But we don't know the facts. We don't know what her history is because all of this is in secret.

ZAHN: Let's come back to Linda Deutsche now for a final thought on these secrecy issues involved in these high profile cases.

DEUTSCHE: I think it's been a very troubling time for the First Amendment with these cases. Every one of them has a gag order. The Kobe Bryant case, the Scott Peterson case, the Michael Jackson case, which means lawyers can't talk to us at all. It's a very difficult time.

And we do have to keep sending the message that this is the people's court and that the trials are public. That's part of the First Amendment, part of the Constitution. And let's hope the judges are listening and that they will make sure we have public trials.

ZAHN: I know you're a former prosecutor. Are you ticked off over all of the secrecy?

TOOBIN: It is a concern but what happens in all of these cases is the prosecution and the defense agree to keep it secret. So judges are used to saying, "Hey, if the prosecution and defense agree, I'm not going to -- I'm not going to mess with that."

So some lawyer from the media comes in and they just give that lawyer the back of their hands.

The problem here is the public is a participant, but there's not really a forum for the public to be a participant in these trials. So once the prosecution and defense agree, that's all the judges need to hear.

ZAHN: Well, you two, Linda Deutsche and Jeffrey Toobin, thanks for covering so much territory for us tonight and have a good weekend.

TOOBIN: See you.

DEUTSCHE: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: And late word today from Colorado that the Kobe Bryant trial will begin on August 27. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us here tonight. Thanks so much for being with us.

Just a reminder, this weekend on "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and his role in the war and Michael Moore, who created an explosive mix of politics and popcorn with his movie "Fahrenheit 9/11." That's tomorrow at 11 a.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.

And then on Monday, justice and the bottom line. An accused serial rapist who allegedly victimized women for years. Police have his DNA but no money to test it.

Thanks again for joining us tonight. Have a great weekend, everybody. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired June 25, 2004 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): He's a strutter.

BISHOP T.D. JAKES, THE POTTER'S HOUSE: There is a place that God has prepared for me!

ZAHN: A sermonizer.

JAKES: You are more than conqueror. Shout yes!

ZAHN: A Grammy-nominated singer, a shepherd with a fast growing flock.

JAKES: I think that there's a great deal of hunger in our country right now for spirituality.

ZAHN: Tonight, the man "TIME" magazine called America's best preacher, T.D. Jakes.

And the vice president drops the F-bomb. Frustration, four- letter words and the increasingly crabby state of American politics.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Good evening. Thanks so much for joining us tonight as we wrap up the week here.

Those stories ahead but, first, tonight, the Los Angeles Police Department will investigate three of its own for allegedly using excessive force in an arrest that was caught on videotape. A local station followed police on Wednesday as they pursued the driver of a stolen vehicle. The car chase turned foot race ended when the suspect, identified as 36-year-old Stanley Miller stopped, as you saw, raised his hands.

An officer then tackled him. Another officer identified as John Hatfield allegedly kicked Miller and then hit him 11 times with a metal flashlight. Miller is said to have had minor injuries and was treated at a hospital, the arrest, of course, bringing back memories of the 1991 LAPD Beating of Rodney King.

The FBI and L.A. County Sheriff's Department are also investigating. All eight officers who were at the scene have been placed on desk duty. L.A.'s mayor has condemned the apparent use of excessive force.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES HAHN, MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES: I want the kind of investigation that leaves no stone unturned, does not pull any punches, but gets to the bottom of this and ensures the community and assures a community that LAPD will not tolerate unlawful use of force in any situation here in the community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Joining us now to discuss the investigation, the man at the center of the storm, Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton.

Always good to see you, sir. Welcome.

What do you see when you look at the videotape of this arrest?

WILLIAM BRATTON, LOS ANGELES POLICE CHIEF: I don't think any of us when we look at that videotape, particularly first reaction, like what we see.

My role, however, is to go beyond that, the initial significant concern I have at what I'm looking at is to determine what was actually happening at that scene. We're looking at helicopter perspectives from about 700 feet in the air, so our investigation will attempt to determine those 11 strikes by the police officer using the flashlight, were those head strikes, were they against a shoulder?

We do have a policy that allows in certain instances not head strikes, but certain body blows, the use of a flashlight during the course of a struggle.

ZAHN: I guess the question I have for you, it sort of doesn't matter what angle you look at this from. Does it appear to you as this man is being chased that, in fact, he raises his hands is going down to his knees even before he is tackled?

BRATTON: That's correct. And what we will determine, is the use of force by all of the officers involved appropriate under our guidelines?

So it's -- we're not downplaying this at all, just the opposite, Paula. The actions we're taking, this is of great concern to us. Certainly, the comments made by the mayor reflect that. And we will do a very thorough investigation. We are also added by the fact that we are under the Federal Consent Decree and have significantly enhanced our investigations and our public investigations of these type of incidents.

ZAHN: Have these officers told you or anybody on your investigative team why they did what they did?

BRATTON: We have had interviews with all of the officers involved, a couple of compelled interviews under our guidelines out here. And that will be part of the investigation as we view this incident.

We're in the process of enhancing the videotape so that we can get a closer look at what was going on down there, match that up against the statement of the officers. We have several different civilian eyewitnesses whose stories contradict each other at this particular time.

So as always in these cases, there will be no rush to judgment. We're not downplaying what appears on that video. There is no ability to downplay it. It does not look good, but the obligation is to give those officers as well as the suspect due process and a thorough, thorough investigation.

ZAHN: Let's play for you now part of a news conference held by a group called Project Islamic Hope.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAJEE ALI, PROJECT ISLAMIC HOPE: Our message to the Chief Bratton is, if you don't get rid of these rogue officers, we'll get rid of you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Do you feel your job is on the line here if there is not what the public speaker perceives as a satisfactory result?

BRATTON: That is not the public. That's one of the biggest nitwits in Los Angeles. That group that you talk about consists of him. He has an extensive past history, if you will.

He speaks for nobody but himself. And, unfortunately, you and many of the media out here constantly run to the same individual. I guess he's our version -- an earlier version of the Reverend Sharpton, except, in the case of Reverend Sharpton, he was able to rally people around him. This character, basically, do you see a big army of supporters behind him? He's got a big mouth is about all he's got.

ZAHN: So you don't feel embattled at this hour?

BRATTON: I'm not embattled with this community. We have spent extensive time working with the African-American community. John Mack of the Urban League was in my office for an hour yesterday, who has agreed to serve on a board that the mayor is putting together.

My relationship with the African-American community in the city is a strong one, a very strong one, both with the political leadership, community leaders and in the community. That nitwit that you were interviewing, basically, you're doing a disservice to your viewership and a disservice to the citizens of this city by putting him on camera.

You need to check out the credentials, if you will, of some of these people that you choose. They make good camera, they make good TV, but they don't make good common sense.

ZAHN: We didn't interview him, but we've been out in your community trying to monitor the reaction to this incident.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: One final question to you, sir, that a lot of people are wondering, including myself.

BRATTON: No, I would suggest, if you have not interviewed him, why are you showing that video? You've got an obligation if you're going to put somebody like him on TV, basically check out his credentials. He has no support in this community, none, none in the black community and certainly none in the rest of the community.

ZAHN: But you're not telling us tonight folks in your community aren't outraged by this? You know, they might not be asking for your job, but they're upset about this.

(CROSSTALK)

BRATTON: They are upset about it and they have a reason to be upset about it, but they're not in the streets demonstrating. We're in community meetings. We're talking about this. We're doing this in a thorough, organized way.

The community is outraged. They are upset. But this is a great community out here that works with us. We have great political leadership. We have great community leadership. That individual is certainly not one of them. Go talk to the John Macks who will express the outrage, but John Mack speaks for the African-American community. Go speak to the church leaders like Bishop Blake.

No, this story -- going to make a national story out of it, and it should be. Los Angeles has this history. But we've gone a long way to improving race relationships here, so go to the legitimate representatives of that community.

ZAHN: That's a question I have for you as we close out this interview. What do you think race had to do with this apparent or alleged use of excessive force? Do you think this man was allegedly attacked because he was a black man?

BRATTON: The issue of race in the United States is with us all the time. That's the history of this country. It's not just Los Angeles, not just the relations between the Los Angeles police and its African-American community.

It's a fact of life in America and something that I'm certainly committed to in my profession trying to change. I address the same issues in Boston, New York City.

ZAHN: Sure.

BRATTON: It's not an issue unique to Los Angeles. And maybe if we can get through this in a way that is oddly within the consent decree, we can show there is an improvement, that police can reduce crime, as we're doing it in this city. Police, when there is controversy, can talk in a reasonable way with our communities and, at the end of it, that we all come out of it feeling that we were able to express outrage, we were able to conduct an investigation and, at the end, that we end up with a reasonable solution.

ZAHN: I don't understand what you're saying, though. Do you believe he was attacked because of his race?

BRATTON: I do not believe that at all.

But what I'm saying in terms of so much interest here is generated by the issues of race in this country. Let's be real about this. This is a country that basically deals with race all the time and police are on the flash point of that. And so in this instance here, where a group of officers, a black female supervisor, two Latino officers, and five white male officers with a black suspect, one of the reasons this story has the legs, apart from the apparent aggression of the officer, is the fact that the issue of race.

Let's be candid about it. There is nothing to hide about this. One of the things that we can maybe get out of this is face these issues openly, that maybe we can heal the racial divide in this country that is so real and needs to be healed.

ZAHN: Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton, thank you for your time tonight. We appreciate it.

BRATTON: Thank you, Paula. Great to be with you.

ZAHN: And when we come, he is the meat and tomatoes of the campaign. She's spicing it up, a look at the other half of the Kerry equation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: During presidential campaigns, the candidates are scrutinized, analyzed and criticized. Now, at some point during the race, their wives get the same treatment. And that is what is happening to Teresa Heinz Kerry, the wife of Senator John Kerry.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Everywhere she goes, people fall in love with Teresa.

ZAHN (voice-over): She's outspoken, she's controversial and she could soon be the first lady of the United States. She's also the widow of another senator, John Heinz of Pennsylvania. As heir to the Heinz ketchup fortune, she is worth hundreds of million and controls a philanthropic family foundation with an endowment of well over $1 billion.

It has been an unlikely life for the 65-year-old daughter of a Portuguese doctor raised in the African nation of Mozambique. Teresa Heinz Kerry threw her energy behind the campaign after early reservations about subjecting herself and her family to a grueling presidential race.

TERESA HEINZ KERRY, WIFE OF SENATOR JOHN KERRY: I really felt it would be really not wise and actually selfish if I kept him from running, And so I made peace with that. And, of course, once I make peace with something and I believe in all these issues and the fact that he can make a contribution, I've soldiered behind him.

ZAHN: And she came out swinging.

HEINZ KERRY: What I've said is if my own name, my family's name is in any way besmirched, seriously besmirched, that I as an American citizen have the right to deal with it. I can go to court. I can defend myself.

ZAHN: Heinz Kerry is willing to speak out on just about everything, from her regular Botox treatments to her prenuptial agreement with Senator Kerry. Last week, she told "Elle" magazine what she would do to a straying husband: "I used to say to my husband, my late husband, if you ever get something, I'll maim you. I won't kill you. I'll maim you."

Her candor has been, at times, a lightning rod for critics but others say that Heinz Kerry has injected some much-needed energy into a highly scripted campaign.

HEINZ KERRY: When people think that I might be a little blunt or opinionated, I have something to say. It's time that women, like men, who know and have opinions be called smart and well-informed and not opinionated.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Joining us now is best-selling author Gail Sheehy, who has written an article about Teresa Heinz Kerry for the upcoming issue of "Mother Jones" magazine.

Always good to see you.

GAIL SHEEHY, AUTHOR/JOURNALIST: Happy to be here.

ZAHN: So, when we see the portrait that you paint of her in this article, one wonders if is this a woman who is simply too accomplished, too independent, too outspoken to succeed as a potential first lady.

SHEEHY: Well, you know, she's very refreshing.

We just haven't seen her likes before. She's unpredictable. She's funny. She's sexy. And she knows she's sexy and she's 65 years old and five years older than her husband. So that will come as some good news to some of the women of America. She is accomplished.

But, you know, I don't think people know how recent that is. Her complete identity changed when she was 52 when her senator husband to whom she had been married for 25 years was killed in a plane crash. And she had to take over a $1.3 billion foundation, a huge enterprise. I asked her how long it took her to make that leap. She said a week.

ZAHN: What do we know about her politics? Where is she on issues?

SHEEHY: She's socially progressive, but she's very economically tight. She's a tight-fisted woman.

She makes people come up with business plans before they can get money from her foundation, which came as a shock to them, because they thought the Heinz will just always give money. But she's not interested in being a politician. That's why she's really different from Hillary. She could have been a senator. She could have inherited her husband's seat or run for it after he was killed. Republicans were urging her to do so, but she have any interest in that.

ZAHN: What is her concern, though, if John Kerry is elected president about her being able to continue to run this foundation, because there would be of conflicts of interests down the road.

SHEEHY: Absolutely.

Well, she's very conflicted. She's very tense about that. You push her button and say, OK, Richard Mellon Scaife, who tried to take down the Clinton presidency, has attacked you because some of your foundation grants find their way into groups like Greenpeace that an archconservative like Scaife thinks is out on the left fringe. And she would say, I don't do policy. I don't do policy. I never push. I never push.

ZAHN: What's interesting about Teresa, though, is that she has made it clear from day one she wasn't too crazy about the idea of her husband running for the presidency.

SHEEHY: That's right.

ZAHN: And there was a concern on the campaign's part that maybe she was being too forthright and that she might hurt it.

SHEEHY: Yes.

ZAHN: Where do things stand now?

SHEEHY: Well, what's interesting when one follows her is, she's very well received on the campaign trail because she is so unscripted and funny. And, you know, she swears for a tension reliever.

And she also talks about being from Africa, a daughter of Africa and talks in Spanish to Hispanic audiences and talks as a new American to new Americans, so she is very different. She's much more interesting to watch than he is. She scowls. She smiles. She fumbles with her buttons. She will suddenly pop out with something. She's really quite a treat in an otherwise overly scripted political campaign.

ZAHN: What is the most surprising thing you learned about her, either from talking with her or watching her?

SHEEHY: That she's a woman who has changed her identity in her 50s and she's, like many in that generation, really, really protective of it. She will not give that up. And that is going to put her at odds with the political handlers, who will say, you know, a little bit less with the political opinions and the big CEO of the philanthropy and a little more of the starry-eyed gaze at your husband.

ZAHN: Well, it's a fascinating article. Thank you for sharing it with us tonight.

SHEEHY: Thank you.

ZAHN: And coming up next, you're going to meet the man some say is the next Billy Graham, the power and the glory of T.D. Jakes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: People looking for God have certainly found T.D. Jakes. Thousands of worshipers have been flocking to Atlanta, Georgia, this week to hear him speak at a four-day spiritual event called MegaFest. It's a crowd that many other preachers can only dream about.

So who is T.D. Jakes? Eric Philips has some answers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAKES: I'm going into another dimension. I'm going to go into a phone booth like Clark Kent, but I'm coming out of that booth looking like Superman. This is your year to turn into Superman!

ERIC PHILIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What is it about Bishop T.D. Jakes' message.

JAKES: I'm dealing with issues. Pray for me.

PHILIPS: That causes even grown men to weep and leap?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's very real. He deals with real issues, real life issues that people deal with every day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's way up here in the level of knowledge in the Bible and stuff. And he kind of draws down to the crowd and acts at their level.

PHILIPS: Jakes is the founder of MegaFest, a first of its kind Christian convention offering spiritual renewal and empowerment with workshops catering individually to men, women, and children.

(on camera): One hundred thousand preregistered for MegaFest and organizers say the final numbers aren't in, but they say by the time it's all said and done, 130,000 or more will have made their way to Atlanta for this conference.

JAKES: I think that there is a great deal of hunger in our country right now for spirituality. You know how church folks do this. They always do like the smell test.

PHILIPS (voice-over): There is also a hunger for Jakes' keeping- it-real style. Like a pied piper, he draws those from all cultures and socioeconomic classes, even celebrities.

MAGIC JOHNSON, FORMER NBA PLAYER: When you hear him speak, you just get glued. You can't even go to the restroom. You don't want to miss anything.

PHILIPS: Jakes hit the national scene in 1993 with his self- published "Woman, Thou Art Loosed." It sold more than two million copes. Today, he has got nearly 30 books on the shelves.

JAKES: You can overcome. You are more than a conqueror.

PHILIPS: "TIME" magazine called Jakes America's best preacher. He's also been dubbed the next Billy Graham.

JAKES: Comparisons make it comfortable for people who need to describe who you are in 300 words or less. But really most of us are far more complicated than to be a duplication of somebody else.

The God that I'm preaching about, he stoops down.

PHILIPS: Many attending this conference and his 28,000-member church in Dallas say Jakes is one of a kind, though he takes no credit for his success.

JAKES: I'm not the message. I'm the messenger. I'm not the mail. I'm the postman.

PHILIPS: A postman whose realm extends around the world.

JAKES: ... of my destiny!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And that was Eric Philips.

And joining us now from Atlanta is Bishop T.D. Jakes.

Welcome. Good to have you with us tonight, sir.

JAKES: Thank you, Paula. I'm delighted to be here.

ZAHN: So they're saying really nice things about you, the black Billy Graham, the new Jesse Jackson, America's best preacher. How would you define yourself?

JAKES: Oh, I really don't know what category to put myself in, in comparison with other people who have impacted their generation.

I just know that I'm real, real excited to see the vision come to pass as it relates to creating an atmosphere for families and friends to come together in this Christian and yet motivational atmosphere.

ZAHN: You have grown quite a flock. Where do you think you're connecting where others aren't?

JAKES: Well, I've thought about that quite a bit, Paula.

I really do think that we've touched a felt need in the community to understand that people are dealing with issues and crises and to be user friendly, sensitive to them. I have tried to find biblical answers to sociological ills and to encourage people, in spite of pains and traumas, to be all that they can be. That was the purpose of The Potter's House Church in Dallas, Texas, as I pastored there for the last eight years and even with MegaFest here in Atlanta.

ZAHN: I'm curious about something you just said. You said you have to be user-friendly. What does that mean, less like the churches maybe many of us went to growing up?

JAKES: Yes. Maybe the focus is not on being starchy and prudish and routines and rituals, but just open and sensitive to the need for people, the ability to hear, not so critical, but open to understand and embrace and encourage people, motivating them, rather than pushing and beating on them.

ZAHN: You have touched people's lives who are often forgotten, but in a general sense, what are people searching for who come to you?

JAKES: I think people, all of us, regardless of whether we come to church or not, what we really want out of life and out of other people is acceptance, for people not necessarily to condone our behavior, but to accept the fact that we are imperfect and flawed and in process.

And we all have that, whether we're in the pulpit or in the pews. It makes no difference. None of us are finished projects. And for a minister to be candid about that and embrace that and encourage people to be all that they can be while accepting them in the process is critical for their restoration.

ZAHN: So have you seen a change in people's spirituality over the last five, 10 years?

JAKES: I'm seeing a tremendous change and particularly since September 11 in this country.

I think a newfound respect for faith has emerged, not only because we're facing traumas and crises, but as the baby boomers get older and we realize that we're not going to be flower children after all, we're faced with some tough choices. We're burying our parents at this point. Our children are growing up and we're dealing with midlife issues.

And as we deal with those issues, spirituality becomes a focus like never before.

ZAHN: In spite of some of the very positive things that even critics are saying about you and your work, there are people out there who, of course, who say you're too flashy, you're too loud, you're too rich. What do you say to them?

JAKES: Well, the great thing about Christianity is that it's not monolithic.

You have a right to be your own person and have your own personality, our own flair. And I think that's reflected in the wide diversity of people that come to MegaFest, everybody from Natalie Cole down to people who are coming from homeless shelters. What we try to do is not compartmentalize people and make them be what we think they ought to be, but rather what God would have them to be.

And you have a right to be your own individual and have flair, if you are person that has flair, or be quiet and calm and sedate. We celebrate the uniqueness of every creature.

ZAHN: Well, I guess they can say just about anything because you've got a following.

Bishop T.D. Jakes, thanks for joining us.

JAKES: Thanks, Paula. It's been a joy.

ZAHN: And when we come back, profanity in politics. The vice president lets loose, but now is he sorry?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Comedian George Carlin once said there are no bad words, just bad thoughts. Well, that may be true, but when we hear certain words from certain people in certain places those words can still shock us. And they can still get people into trouble.

It happened to Vice President Cheney the other day when he lobbed a four-letter word at Senator Patrick Leahy on the Senate floor.

Leahy said he thought Cheney was, quote, "Just having a bad day, but also said he was shocked to hear that kind of language in the Senate."

By all -- by the way, all of this happened on the same day by a vote of 99-1, the Senate passed a Bill called the Defense of Decency Act.

Well, tonight, the vice president had this to say on Fox News' "Your World" with Neil Cavuto.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I expressed myself rather forcefully. I felt better after I had done it.

NEIL CAVUTO, HOST, "YOUR WORLD": Now, did you use the "F" word?

CHENEY: That's not the kind of language I usually use. CAVUTO: All right. Because the reports were that you did.

CHENEY: Yes. That's not the language I ordinarily use. But...

CAVUTO: What did you tell him?

CHENEY: I expressed my dissatisfaction with Senator Leahy. He is the kind of individual who will make those kinds of charges and then come after you as though he's your best friend, and I expressed in no uncertain terms my views of his conduct and walked away.

CAVUTO: Did you curse at him?

CHENEY: Probably.

CAVUTO: Do you have any regrets?

CHENEY: No. He had challenged my integrity and I didn't like that. But, most of all, I didn't like the fact that after he had done so, then he wanted to act like everything is peaches and cream.

And I informed him of my view of his conduct in no uncertain terms and as I say, I felt better afterwards. I think a lot of my colleagues felt that what I'd said badly needed to be said, that it was long overdue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: And tonight after seeing that interview, a spokesman for Senator Leahy had this to say. "It appears the vice president's previous calls for civility are now inoperative."

Joining us now, John Fund of "The Wall Street Journal."

So John, the vice president didn't deny he said that. Did he cross the line here?

JOHN FUND, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": I think it is always a mistake for someone when their words are going to be bandied about in public to use that kind of language, simply because of the example it sets for children.

On the other hand, I'm not going to say that the president -- the vice president should apologize to Senator Leahy because this is...

ZAHN: Why not?

FUND: This has a vicious season all long. John Kerry back in February in "Rolling Stone" used the "F" word to describe President Bush's role in Iraq.

ZAHN: But you're not saying just because one guy does it, it's OK for the other guy to?

FUND: No, I'm saying we have that poisonous -- we have that poisonous an atmosphere. Maybe this will be a little bit of a cooling off period.

ZAHN: Do you think the vice president is embarrassed that this became public?

FUND: I don't think he's going to do it again, and I don't think he would do it again.

ZAHN: Well, guess what? We have a debate partner for you on the other side.

FUND: Sure. I'm not surprised.

ZAHN: We're crossing our fingers. We hope to be joined by Matthew Miller of the Center for Progress and the author of "The Two Percent Solution" on the other side. Please stay tuned.

When we come back, we also have Jeanne Moos reminding us of some colorful language from both sides of the political aisle.

And a little bit later on, surprise testimony in the murder trial of Scott Peterson.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back. We're discussing Vice President's Cheney's choice words on the Senate floor. That's the "F" bomb controversy and reaction to it.

Joining us now, John Fund of the "Wall Street Journal" and in Los Angeles, Matthew Miller of the Center for American Progress and author of "The Two Percent Solution."

Welcome, gentlemen.

So Matthew, I don't know if you're able to hear John before the commercial break. He basically said the vice president probably should not have used that word, but he doesn't need to apologize to anyone. After all, it was John Kerry who uttered that same word in a magazine article months ago.

Your reaction to this whole controversy.

MATTHEW MILLER, AUTHOR, "THE TWO PERCENT SOLUTION": Well, the first thing is it does make you think that Dick Cheney is sort of cracking under the pressure when he feels compelled to curse out Pat Leahy on the Senate floor.

But the second thing is this laughable double standard that Cheney and the White House and the conservatives generally wanted to apply. Does anyone imagine -- and remember, he cursed out Pat Leahy for raising questions about whether the Halliburton no-bid contracts in Iraq should have been looked into.

Now, if Bill Clinton were president and Hillary Clinton's law firm got hundreds of millions of dollars in a no-bid contract in a foreign country after a war, I think the conservatives would be calling for her to be impeached!

So the idea it's not legitimate to ask questions about Halliburton's role when Dick Cheney was CEO up until the day he joined the ticket is crazy.

ZAHN: Is that what this is about, a double standard here, John?

FUND: Matt, lighten up. We've had Halliburton week. The Democrats have been pounding on this. We've had Halliburton month. We've had Halliburton for the whole last year.

No new evidence, no nothing. The story hasn't advanced one inch. Dick Cheney is frustrated.

ZAHN: All right. You're saying...

MILLER: Why is he cursing out a senator?

FUND: Well, you know, if you've been attacked unfairly for a year, sometimes you get frustrated. Sometimes you say things you shouldn't.

At least this administration is considering the sense. The FCC came out last year and said you can use the "F" word as long as it's a verb and not an act. I understand Dick Cheney was using it in that term.

ZAHN: John, give me a break? Isn't this the guy who campaigned for bringing back a sense of decency?

(CROSSTALK)

FUND: ... political atmosphere. We should have time-out for both sides. Maybe this is a marker that should say we have gone too far and let's pull back. Because otherwise this is -- we're going to head to a toxic waste dump by November at this rate.

MILLER: But it is -- What's sad, Paul, is that you've got -- you've Cheney cursing out a senator on the Senate floor the same day basically that a Republican senatorial candidate in Illinois is withdrawing from the race for what turns out to be somewhat unusual sexual behavior.

It's a sad day for me, because I expected more from the Republican Party that was going to really change the tone in Washington.

ZAHN: John, are you going to let him get away from that or does that laughter say it all?

FUND: Individuals -- Individuals do not have their sins visited upon their entire group. We've learned that in the past.

Look, Dick Cheney is frustrated because these attacks have been going on for a year. They haven't been advanced at all. The Supreme Court now says he doesn't have to turn over those documents on the energy task force. He's being vindicated.

He's a little tired. Maybe he should take a break. Maybe we should all take a break and not use this language, because by November it's going to get a whole lot worse unless we pull back.

MILLER: But it is the underlying issue, is the same "just trust us" mentality. That's what Cheney is essentially, through his cursing, saying to Pat Leahy, "How dare you question my integrity?"

We know there's lots of reasons for what the administration has done not to trust them so it's all fair to ask.

FUND: Guess what? We have the career civil service auditors here at the Defense Department on Dick Cheney's side. We have the Supreme Court who is on his side on the energy task force. I think those are pretty good ratifiers. Pretty good verifiers.

MILLER: John -- John, please calm down. I just don't want John to get to the point where he's going to throwing around the same kind of language we're seeing from the vice president these days.

ZAHN: I have known John for a long time! I don't think he's going there.

FUND: Matt, you're such a fair person I'm surprised at that one.

ZAHN: John, if you wouldn't mind standing by, I want to kind of do an historic review of the use of language by politicians and the amount of unwelcome attention it has gotten them over the years.

Jeanne Moos takes a look at that now for us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Swearing in is one thing. Swearing is another.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... major league (expletive).

MOOS: Remember when candidate George Bush referred to a reporter as an opening as a posterior anatomy, to which Dick Cheney replied, "Big-time!"

Well, now it's Mr. Cheney who's gone big time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He dropped the "F" bomb.

MOOS (on camera): He said the "F" word. He said "F" you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really?

MOOS: Did you hear what happened with...?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard Dick Cheney telling everybody to (expletive deleted) off. MOOS: See, now I have to bleep you!

(voice-over) Actually, the vice president only told off one person, Senator Patrick Leahy.

CAVUTO: Do you have any regrets?

CHENEY: No. I said it.

MOOS: Doesn't everybody curse these days?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (expletive deleted).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's actually swearing at someone and demeaning another human being.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Depends on the word. I mean, that would offend me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dick, just apologize!

MOOS: In an interview with "Rolling Stone" the "F" word rolled off Kerry's tongue: "Did I expect George Bush to (expletive deleted) it up as badly as he did? I don't think anybody did."

And after a snowboarding spill, Kerry was quoted as saying, "I don't fall down. That is son of a (expletive deleted) ran into me.

George Bush, the elder debated Geraldine Ferraro, then bragged, "We kicked a little (expletive deleted)."

And Barbara Bush once said of Geraldine Ferraro, "I'm not going to say it, but it rhymes with witch."

(on camera) Now, if you don't mind, this is Match the Politician to the Profanity Quiz.

"Major league a-hole." Who said that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was John Kerry.

MOOS: That was not John Kerry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was Barbara Bush?

MOOS: No, it wasn't Barbara Bush.

"F" Saddam, we're taking him out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's George Bush!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They always believe taking people out.

MOOS: Remember this one, "major league a-hole?" You don't remember that one? You're failing the quiz! (voice-over) Funny that just when Dick Cheney gets caught cursing, Madonna is cleaning up her act by charging those working for her five bucks every time they swear.

Politicians must envy Bulworth, the fictional Senator who, thinking he's going to die, liberated his language.

WARREN BEATTY, ACTOR: Oh, (expletive deleted) (expletive deleted) (expletive deleted). That's the real obscenity black folks living with everyday is trying to believe a (expletive deleted) word Democrats and Republicans say.

MOOS: But how do you say the unsayable? "The Washington Post" wrote out the entire "F" word uttered by Vice President Cheney, but referred to Mr. Bush's earlier discretion as "expletive."

While "The New York Times" never even got as the "F," opting for "an obscene phrase to describe what he thought Mr. Leahy should do."

And all of those hyphens and missing letters? Think of it as the Morse code of cursing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: All right. So bottom line here, John Fund, if it's an act, it's off-limits?

FUND: According to the Federal Communications System.

ZAHN: OK. Got that down.

So Matthew, what are we to learn about the consistency with which politicians have used this kind of language over the years?

MILLER: I guess it happens, Paula, but I think all of us should realize that when people like Cheney and others in the conservative movement tend to be holier than thou about what their life is in public life, I think it's time to get off their high horse.

And I do think it's evidence that there's a little cracking going on and a little strain, because Cheney is not a guy who you would ordinarily think would feel like he had to curse out Pat Leahy on the Senate floor.

ZAHN: Is he too thin-skinned, John Fund?

FUND: No. I think he was engaging in some instant therapy.

ZAHN: Therapy? What? It's a catharsis, saying that to your esteemed colleague?

FUND: He shouldn't have said it, but all politicians have become much more coarse. In fact, we're going to have Tourette's Syndrome among politicians if we don't stop doing this.

ZAHN: Well, let's talk right off the bat now. FUND: Let's not take this too seriously.

ZAHN: But the Democrat senatorial campaign committee is already circulating e-mails tonight, quote, "Tell your friends about V.P. Cheney's potty-mouth."

How far is this going to go, Matthew?

MILLER: Well, certainly to the extent is shows a kind of hypocrisy or a double standard, as I said, I think that's a legitimate issue.

And the idea that, again, that the folks in the White House may hold themselves out, especially to certain members of the Christian base, the Christian conservative movement that they try to appeal so, I think that this just shows that a lot of their behavior may be behind closed doors, maybe when it slips out under the strain isn't quite in sync with the image they're trying to portray.

FUND: I'm not going to play amateur psychologist. I'll just make one policy point.

There is still no evidence that Dick Cheney did favors for Halliburton while he was vice president. That's the policy point, and the independent auditors of the Pentagon agree with that.

MILLER: Do you agree it's legitimate to look into and that the conservatives would be blasting Hillary Clinton if her law firm had a no-bid, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollar contract? Of course, it's legitimate to look into, John, my good friend John.

FUND: Criticism is fine. At some point, you're going to have a dry hole after a year and that's where we are.

ZAHN: All right, gentlemen. We're going to have to end on that note. John Fund, Matthew Miller. Dying to see what the two of you would say behind closed doors to each other.

FUND: "Hello, precious!"

ZAHN: "Hello, nice to see you, honey!"

What you won't hear and why in the trial of Michael Jackson. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: There have been some major developments this weekend. Two closely watched court cases.

Today a judge in the Michael Jackson case has ruled that grand jury transcripts and search warrants will remain sealed.

Several news organizations, including CNN, had wanted some of those documents open to the public, but the judge said that would jeopardize Jackson's right to a fair trial. Jackson has pleaded not guilty to charges of child molestation and he was not at today's hearing.

Meanwhile, it has been a rough week for the prosecution in the Scott Peterson murder trial. Yesterday, a Modesto police detective admitted that he did not include a witness report in a transcript of a taped interview.

The witness had said Laci Peterson was seen at the warehouse used to store her husband's boat.

Well, the prosecution had contended that Laci did not know her husband even had a boat and said Scott used it to dump her body. Laci's hair was found in that boat.

The developments follow the dismissal of a juror this week who later told the media he wasn't convinced that Peterson killed his wife.

If you can keep up with all of this, good luck.

Joining us to discuss these cases and the latest in the Kobe Bryant case, here in New York CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. In Santa Barbara, where we all should be, Associated Press special correspondent Linda Deutsche.

Nice to have both of you with us tonight.

Linda, let's start with you. In the hearings today, the judge actually commented on some of the difficulties he's going to encounter in trying to give Michael Jackson a fair trial. What did he say?

LINDA DEUTSCHE, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Judges are concerned about celebrities having a special role in the justice system. This is something I never thought we would really come to, since most judges want to treat everyone the same.

But he said he was finding it very exasperating to try to give Michael Jackson a fair trial and that he had to weigh everything. He had to weigh the evidence between giving Michael a fair trial and between satisfying First Amendment requirements for keeping information open.

ZAHN: So can Michael Jackson get a fair trial ultimately?

DEUTSCHE: It seems that anyone can get a fair trial in this country. I'm of that opinion. I'm a great believer in the jury system. I think that in the end the system adjusts to whoever is before the bar.

Obviously, there is great interest in the case, and the judge's reaction is to keep everything sealed, to put a lid of secrecy on this case, which is very disturbing, and which the media is fighting.

The public does have a right to know what's going on in these cases, and in a celebrity case, the interest is even more heightened. So it's a question of do you close off everything because everyone is interested in it? That seems to be the prevailing view right now.

ZAHN: Well, I think the picture is a little clearer in the Scott Peterson case at this hour. It was not a good week for the prosecution, was it?

JEFF TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It was not a good week, and it was especially bad at two levels. Because that -- that document you talked about, the failure to disclose that a witness said Laci was near the boat, it's a disaster at two levels.

One is it really undermines trust in the prosecution and the police, and that's something, once lost, is really hard to recover. Second, it may address the best piece of physical evidence against Scott Peterson, which is that hair.

ZAHN: Because there's no way of explaining how it got there?

TOOBIN: Right. Because the prosecution will assert that the hair got in there, got in the boat when Scott used the boat to dispose of her body. Here, we have a completely innocent alternative explanation of how the hair could have got in the boat during this visit to the -- you know, just before she died.

ZAHN: Let's turn now to the Kobe Bryant case, an important week next week when we have yet another -- say that again.

Let's turn now to the Kobe Bryant case. Big week next week when there's yet another discussion of the accuser's sexual history. What is at stake here?

TOOBIN: Well, it's extraordinary. Just as Linda was talking about in the Michael Jackson case, in the Kobe Bryant case, we had eight days of hearings in total secrecy what is almost certainly going to be the crucial issue in the case, which is how much of the accuser's background, her sexual history, emotional history, mental health history, how much of that is going to be admissible? Is that consistent with the rape shield law or isn't it?

I mean, that is going to determine a lot of how this trial goes, and we should get a ruling next week. But we don't know the facts. We don't know what her history is because all of this is in secret.

ZAHN: Let's come back to Linda Deutsche now for a final thought on these secrecy issues involved in these high profile cases.

DEUTSCHE: I think it's been a very troubling time for the First Amendment with these cases. Every one of them has a gag order. The Kobe Bryant case, the Scott Peterson case, the Michael Jackson case, which means lawyers can't talk to us at all. It's a very difficult time.

And we do have to keep sending the message that this is the people's court and that the trials are public. That's part of the First Amendment, part of the Constitution. And let's hope the judges are listening and that they will make sure we have public trials.

ZAHN: I know you're a former prosecutor. Are you ticked off over all of the secrecy?

TOOBIN: It is a concern but what happens in all of these cases is the prosecution and the defense agree to keep it secret. So judges are used to saying, "Hey, if the prosecution and defense agree, I'm not going to -- I'm not going to mess with that."

So some lawyer from the media comes in and they just give that lawyer the back of their hands.

The problem here is the public is a participant, but there's not really a forum for the public to be a participant in these trials. So once the prosecution and defense agree, that's all the judges need to hear.

ZAHN: Well, you two, Linda Deutsche and Jeffrey Toobin, thanks for covering so much territory for us tonight and have a good weekend.

TOOBIN: See you.

DEUTSCHE: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: And late word today from Colorado that the Kobe Bryant trial will begin on August 27. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us here tonight. Thanks so much for being with us.

Just a reminder, this weekend on "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and his role in the war and Michael Moore, who created an explosive mix of politics and popcorn with his movie "Fahrenheit 9/11." That's tomorrow at 11 a.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.

And then on Monday, justice and the bottom line. An accused serial rapist who allegedly victimized women for years. Police have his DNA but no money to test it.

Thanks again for joining us tonight. Have a great weekend, everybody. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next.

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