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Paula Zahn Now

Pope John Paul II and Beyond

Aired April 04, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome, everybody. Good evening. Glad to have you with us for this special edition of PAULA ZAHN NOW.
An historic pilgrimage has begun, bringing millions to witness centuries of tradition and honor the man who won their hearts. Tonight, Pope John Paul II and beyond.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): A magnificent procession, Pope John Paul II in Saint Peter's Square. The faithful gather to bid farewell to a man who touched their lives with warmth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was the people's pope. He was the people's pope.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was human. He really showed people that he loved them.

ZAHN: To a leader who touched their world with wisdom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just hope we can find somebody who can unite the church as much as he did.

ZAHN: How will the next pope confront the growing challenges to a global church?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Tonight, as you can see here at Saint Peter's Basilica, 2:00 local time, the body of Pope John Paul II lies in state. And thousands of mourners wait for their chance to say farewell, as thousands of others have been doing all day long.

And, again, thanks so much for being with us tonight as we continue our special coverage. It has been a day of extraordinary images of the grandeur and pageantry of the Catholic Church and of the people touched by the life of John Paul II.

My colleagues Christiane Amanpour and Anderson Cooper are covering the great gathering in Rome.

Let's get started with Anderson tonight.

Hi again, Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Paula. It has, as you said, truly been a remarkable day, a day, an intensely public day, tens of thousands of people coming to see Pope John Paul II, but also a day of very private grief and private mourning. As I said, some 100,000 people are believed to have already seen or are still currently standing in line waiting to see the pontiff, even though it's 2:02 a.m. here in Vatican City. They still are waiting and for many hours will continue to wait, this day not over yet.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): Here at the Vatican today, sights that we haven't witnessed for a generation, the awesome mysteries of life and death and faith in full public view. As the slow procession made its way from the Apostolic Palace across the huge expanse of Saint Peter's Square, a chore in Latin chanted a litany of the saints, invoking the names of the holiest men and women in the Catholic Church's 2,000-year history, asking each in turn to pray for the pope, his once-smiling face still recognizable, but frozen, his once vigorous body now lifeless, one foot tilted askew.

Slowly, tenderly, the pope's body was carried by the Vatican's official escorts. They are called the papal gentlemen. They made their way up the steps of Saint Peter's Basilica, then turned, so the huge crowd, tens of thousands, could get another look. Then the pope was carried inside for more prayers, more music, a sprinkling with holy water and readings from scripture.

The line of mourners finally began to snake inside, men, women, and children from all over the world. They had been waiting for hours. They came to stare, to pray, to make some gesture of respect, perhaps a picture or just to dab tears from their eyes. It will stay like this for 21 hours a day, until Friday morning and the solemn funeral mass. John Paul II will be laid to rest here at Saint Peter's, not in his native Poland.

Those decisions were made earlier in the day when the Catholic cardinals convened for the first meeting since the pope's death. Eventually, one of them will be elected as his successor. But the date for their conclave was not announced. This day was given over to mourning. It began with the pope's body still laying in repose in an ornate room called the Sala Clementina, where he used to welcome guest. Since yesterday, about 3,000 dignitaries have viewed the body in this intimate setting.

The Vatican also let some 200 journalists inside, including CNN's Jim Bittermann, who has covered the pope and the Vatican for more than two decades.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think the saddest thing for me was the way people came into the room and they looked at the pope. And a lot of them, I think, didn't know any other pope except the one that they had seen in perhaps the last 10 years. Those of us who were around early in the papacy saw a very different man that was active and charming and had an unbelievable magnetism with crowds. And it was just sad that some of those people that were going through the lines today really didn't know any other pope than the man that they were seeing there laid out on the pillows.

COOPER: One of many memories at the end of a remarkable papacy, the end of a remarkable life. Officials predict two million people will file past his body by Friday's funeral and will have their own stories to tell.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Earlier today, I was in Saint Peter's Square, when the pope's body was moved into the Basilica. I was standing in crowds of tens of thousands of people. Even though many didn't actually get to see him in person, he didn't pass by, none of them were disappointed. They all felt that they had a special connection to this pope and they wanted to bid him goodbye one last time.

CNN's chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, has been inside Saint Peter's Basilica -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, Paula, the cult of John Paul II is well and truly under way.

It was one of the cardinals here who even called him John Paul the Great, seeming to suggest that he may be in line for sainthood. In any event, the tens of thousands of people who have come here, even if many of them disagreed with some of his orthodox, conservative and traditional preachings, they have come here en masse to pay their last respects. Many of them are going to have to wait many, many hours.

And this Basilica was meant to be shut down for about three hours in order for them to be able to rearrange inside and prepare for the morning rush, so to speak, but it is still going. The crowds are still flowing in.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: I'm standing here in the Via Della Conciliazione, along with tens of thousands of pilgrims, who have come here for their chance to file past the body of the pope. This is the grand boulevard that leads up to Saint Peter's Basilica.

And, as they wait, what they can see is the proceedings on these huge screens that have been erected for this purpose. Right now, you are looking at the domes, the vaulted domes, of Saint Peter's Basilica, the dome that was planned and decorated by the great Michelangelo. And underneath that is the body of Pope John Paul II, and you can see people who are waiting and who are able to file past.

Now, again, we are looking at these people who are now beginning to walk. It only happens in bursts, because it takes a long time to get them through. Now they are walking. And even though they are going to be waiting for hours, they are not going to be able to do much more than just file past when they get inside, because they have to keep this huge flow of people moving. Let's ask a few people what they are expecting.

Sister, what is your name? Where are you from?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm Sister Myrian Petracezanya (ph) from Nigeria.

AMANPOUR: And tell me what your feelings are now, as you anticipate a long wait to go and see the pope.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm eager to go and see the man of God, the man of all, in heart of all, in heart of the world.

AMANPOUR: So how long do you think you're going to have to wait here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even if I wait for two days here in this line, I'm OK.

AMANPOUR: You are young people. The pope reached out to young people. Do you feel that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Definitely, of course.

AMANPOUR: What does he mean to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He means national humanity just coming together, just all of us, eternal love. And...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very unified.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: And you have come from London for this or you happened to be here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For this, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We actually booked our tickets before his death and...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We wanted to come before, while he was sick. But then it happened that he passed away on this Saturday and our flight was on the Sunday. And we have been here since then.

AMANPOUR: And how long are you prepared to wait to see him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, we have already been here for...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just had this conversation and we're here for the long haul.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, long term, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: So, you have been here how long already?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Coming up three hours now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three hours.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, yes. Come this far, got to do the rest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Bethany (ph) and I'm nearly 8 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has got her granddad's rosary on tonight. So, she is doing it for her granddad, who died two years ago. So, she is standing in for him tonight.

AMANPOUR: Oh, that's nice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And she's happy to do it.

AMANPOUR: Can I see, Bethany, your rosary?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Grandad's rosary.

AMANPOUR: This is your granddad's rosary?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it is.

AMANPOUR: So, you are doing this for your grandfather.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: That's very nice. I'm sure he would be very, very proud of you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So there you saw. There you saw the people who are waiting to go in and the people who actually were inside. And, as I say, for all the waiting they have to do, it's quite a brisk pace they have around the laying in state of Pope John Paul II, because they have so many people to get through.

And these people are going to be here in their tens of thousands until Friday, which is the day of the funeral -- Paula.

ZAHN: I absolutely love, Christiane, what the Nigerian nun told you, that, if it takes two days to file past the pope's body, that's OK. She just wants to pay her respects. See you a little bit later on tonight. Thanks so much, Christiane.

And even though he was world famous, there are many stories about the pope that you haven't heard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KAROL HAGENHUBER, FRIEND OF POPE JOHN PAUL II: Every time he was going to school, he stopped at the church to have a prayer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Coming up, a childhood friend remembers the boy who would grow up to lead the Catholic Church.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Some extraordinary images of just how much power this pope had through his reach.

In just a moment, a boyhood friend shares his memories of growing up with a future pope. And then, a little bit later on, the Catholic Church's troubled relationship with women.

First, though, it's just about 13 minutes past the hour. Time to check in with Sophia Choi of Headline News. She joins me now to check some of the day's other top stories.

Hi, Sophia.

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Paula.

Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko is on his first trip to America since his country's disputed election was settled. Today, Yushchenko and President Bush discussed Iraq's reconstruction. Yushchenko says he's committed to the training of Iraqi security forces, even though Ukraine is withdrawing its troops from Iraq. President Bush says America is blessed to have soldiers like the late Sergeant Paul Smith.

Smith's 11-year-old son accepted his father's Medal of Honor today, the first given for the Iraq war. The U.S. military says Smith saved over 100 U.S. lives before he was shot in a Baghdad firefight.

Jurors at Michael Jackson's child molestation trial heard a young man from the pop singer's past break down today. The now 24-year-old claims Jackson initiated tickling games that led to fondling. Prosecutors say the witness got $2 million for settling his own molestation case against Jackson.

Discount air carriers may be the way to go if you are looking for a quality flight. A new report filed with Transportation Department found five of the top six performing airlines are low-cost carriers.

Those are the headlines -- Paula, now back to you.

ZAHN: Sophia, thanks so much. We'll see you in about a half hour or so.

And, as the world's one billion Catholics mourn Pope John Paul II and a few and just a few mourn the man they knew long before he ever became the beloved leader of the Roman Catholic Church.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): The world knew him as Pope John Paul II, but to Karol Hagenhuber, he was Lolek.

HAGENHUBER: I remember him like he used to look as a teenager, exactly. I just still have this in my memory.

ZAHN: They met in high school. Both boys loved sports.

HAGENHUBER: His favorite sport was skiing. And we used to ski together, you know, also. And he loved that sport so much.

ZAHN: But, even as a teenager, Hagenhuber says there was something special about the young Karol Wojtyla.

HAGENHUBER: He would recite Vergilius, Plato, Homer just from memory. I mean, we were amazed how much he could retain.

ZAHN: Hagenhuber also remembers a young man who was very religious.

HAGENHUBER: Every time, he was going to school, he stopped at the church to have a prayer. His mother died when he was 9 years old. They lost his brother to sickness, too. So, there was only his father and him left. And, you know, this itself, usually, when something like that happens, it brings you closer to God.

ZAHN: Life was not easy for his friend.

HAGENHUBER: He knew what poverty meant. And his father was living on pension, so there was never enough money. They had to look for every penny they spent.

Hagenhuber believes that the loss of Wojtyla's family and the hardship of life during World War II influenced him to become a priest and later as pope pushed him to try to reduce people's suffering in the world. After World War II, the two friends went their separate ways. Hagenhuber eventually made his way to the United States. It was almost 20 years before the two men met again. At that point, Karol Wojtyla was archbishop of Krakow.

HAGENHUBER: So, I didn't know how to express myself, especially introducing my wife, you know. And I say, your excellency, this is my wife, you know. And he said, you know, what you talking about? Did you forget my first name? And we embrace and everything.

ZAHN: Little did Hagenhuber realize what would happen in 1978.

HAGENHUBER: Before the election, you know, I told my buddies at work, you know what? My buddy from high school, he's in Rome. They are going to elect a pope. And I said, it's not going to be him because this is almost impossible, you know.

ZAHN: But the impossible did happen.

HAGENHUBER: It was a shock to me. I had tears in my eyes. And I couldn't believe it.

ZAHN: Over the years, the two friends would correspond with each other and, on a few occasions, even met in person. The last time Hagenhuber saw John Paul II was in 2002 in Poland at a dinner with the pope and several other school friends. Hagenhuber says he could see that the pope's health was failing.

HAGENHUBER: When the dinner was over, he was not -- he didn't ask to take him. He got up, and walking to the next room, trying to walk by himself. And somebody just help him. He tried to show that something perked him up being with us.

ZAHN: Hagenhuber believes the pope knew it would be his last trip to Poland. Over the next few years, Hagenhuber, like the rest of the world, saw the deterioration in the pope's health.

HAGENHUBER: What bothered him probably most, that he couldn't express himself. He was such a -- one of the greatest communicators in the history of church, and altogether, you know. And that he couldn't communicate himself with people like he did in old days, that probably bothered him more than anything.

ZAHN: Hagenhuber's last letter from the pope was in 2003. He thanked him for his friendship.

HAGENHUBER: I'm privileged, so much, to know a man which is going to be in the history for ages like the greatest pope. And I call him already John Paul the Great.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: A remembrance from a childhood friend who knew the pope, as we said, long before he ever came to the Vatican.

In a moment, a woman whose meeting with the pope may have actually helped save his life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): You see me in the pope's arm and then suddenly he's fired upon and falls to the ground.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: An amazing story of the day a gunman tried to kill the pope. We'll share it with you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Those faces say it all.

Nearly 24 years ago in Saint Peter's Square, where pope John Paul crossed today for the last time, a Turkish gunman almost took his life. He was saved by a baby girl he had reached out to hold just as the trigger was pulled. That baby's name was Sara (ph).

And Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci has the story of how her life was also changed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Thousands gathered to say goodbye to their spiritual leader in the very square where he was nearly killed more than two decades ago. It was May 13, 1981. The pope picked up a baby girl as he greeted worshipers in Saint Peter's Square. A gunman aimed and fired. The pope was hit. The baby was not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (through translator): Spontaneously, I would say that I did save his life. But, actually, perhaps, he saved mine. In a way, he protected me a bit, like a father would.

VINCI: The would-be assassin, Mehmet Ali Agca, a Turkish militant, would later say he couldn't aim properly because the baby was so close. They call her the baby that saved the pope's life.

Today, Sara Barkley (ph) is 26 and remembers nothing of that incident when she was just 18 months old. What she knows, she learned from articles and letters her parents collected.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Because you see me in the pope's arms and then suddenly he's fired upon and falls to the ground, people wrote to me. They were scared about what happened to me.

VINCI: All the media attention about what happened eventually took its toll. and Sara's devotion to the pontiff waned until she saw his frail condition on Easter Sunday.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I realized that, after 24 years, something opened up and I cried. And only a few days later, he died and all my emotions overflowed.

VINCI: Years later, the pope visited the gunman in jail to tell him he was forgiven. Now Ali Agca says the death of the man he once tried to kill brings him great sadness.

Sara is now married and nine months pregnant. The death of John Paul II and the imminent birth of her child have her reflecting on the cycle of life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): It's an immense coincidence, especially if you look at all the newspapers announcing his death. Many showed photos of the pope with a child in his arms, a symbol of death, but also a symbol of life and future.

VINCI: Sara says she is deeply saddened by John Paul's death, but is looking forward to telling her child how she became the baby that saved the pope.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: The most amazing thing in all of that is the power of forgiveness. Alessio Vinci. Agca served 20 years for the assassination attempt and is still in prison on unrelated charges.

Coming up next, one of the biggest challenges facing the next pope.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know that we have a woman's question. There isn't anybody who doesn't know that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: When we come back, women's roles in the modern world and in the Catholic Church.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: As you have seen in the endless stream of mourners, many women around the world are devoted to Pope John Paul II. But over the years, his policies on women's roles in the church have faced intense criticism. Here's CNN Vatican analyst, Delia Gallagher.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST (voice-over): Pope John Paul II's very first message on the status of women came out on New Year's Day, 1995. One them: Women have the right to be fully involved in every area of public life. A few months later, on the eve of the fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, he made an unprecedented move, becoming the first pope in history to apologize to women.

"How many women have been and continue to be valued more for their physical appearance than for their skill, their professionalism, their intellectual abilities. And if objective blame has belonged to not just a few members of the church, for this I am truly sorry."

Many thought that this apology would herald a new era in the Catholic Church's teaching on gender and sexuality as well. But it was not to be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If we have a papal encyclical and a papal apology calling for a program for the promotion of women, where's the program?

GALLAGHER: For some, the program was clear. Both within the Vatican and around the world, John Paul did promote women.

The fact that there are women working in higher positions, staff positions in the Vatican is one clear sign. That we are named to represent the Vatican in different things. They trust us to be there. A number of other things like that are all to be honored only because of John Paul II.

GALLAGHER: In his many travels, he encouraged women both in their careers and in their roles as mothers. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whether you are the mother superior of an order of nuns, whether you are teaching in an inner city school as a female teacher, or whether you are the stay-at-home mom, your job is really important to the church. And the pope says this quite clearly.

GALLAGHER: But for others, a program that promotes women everywhere but on the altar is no program at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any institution that is not fully incorporating women leaves out half the agendas of the human race.

GALLAGHER: But John Paul II did not budge from the long-standing Catholic tradition of an all-male priesthood, nor on allowing the use of contraception, causing some women to protest and others to leave the church altogether.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The church is bleeding women. And someday that's going to affect us as a church, and it's not going to be long and may indeed be happening now.

GALLAGHER: To understand the pope's position, which seemed to encourage some women's issues and discourage others, it helps to look at his model of womanhood: The Virgin Mary. He believed it was she who saved his life when a would-be assassin attempted to kill him in St. Peter's Square in 1981. And it was Mary's openness to motherhood that the pope said women should imitate -- hence the ban on abortion and contraception.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The pope is talking about in general, this is a gift that God has given to women in particular. The human race is entrusted to women.

GALLAGHER: In modern society, however, not all women share the pope's vision, and in an age of AIDS, his refusal to allow the use of condoms caused many to call him out of touch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He seems to have adopted the position of the philosophers and theologians from about the 13th century.

GALLAGHER (on camera): The pope's reasoning when it came to women's issues was based on centuries-old church teaching, and is largely shared by his cardinal advisers, one of whom will become the next pope. Anyone expecting radical change will likely be disappointed.

Delia Gallagher, for CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And a woman with very strong ideas on women in the church joins me now, former Maryland Lieutenant Governor Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, joining us from Washington. Her uncle, John F. Kennedy, was the United States' only Catholic president. Always good to see you. Welcome.

KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND, FORMER LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR OF MARYLAND: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: So Delia just helped us better understand this great debate within the Catholic Church. In your view, did this pope advance the cause of women and the church?

TOWNSEND: Well, there's a lot to be done with the Catholic Church and women. And I think it was very helpful the pope apologized for what he had done for -- what the church had done to women, how they had mistreated women, who at one time had called them "misbegotten males."

So I think that was very positive. But as you know, the Catholic Church moves slowly, and to embrace the cause of women wholeheartedly would have been very difficult for them to do. I think that the fact that we're talking about it this evening and that it has been a thread throughout the last week indicates the real concern. You know, the Catholic Church is supposed to reach out to the poor, to the disenfranchised, and many of them across the world are women. So my belief is that the holy spirit will eventually touch the church, but at the moment, it's been a real challenge.

ZAHN: Is that hard for you to reconcile when you love this church you grew up on? And you also accept the fact that some of the policies are exclusionary of women.

TOWNSEND: Yes. I mean, I did -- I do love the church. It's been an enormous comfort to me. Prayer -- the fact that I'm part of something that is universal, the part -- that this lasted for 2,000 years, that it's been part of my family. It's like family to me.

So in that sense, I love the church, but I understand that you can't always get, you know, what would be ideal. And, remember, you know, Galileo was part of the church, and it took the church quite a while to apologize to Galileo.

So I have faith that over time, it will change. Now, the hope is -- my hope is, of course, that it can change sooner rather than later, because I think it's better for women. But on the other hand, it has made many women really think about the church, really think about what roles we can play. And that's a value, as well.

ZAHN: We just heard a Benedictine nun basically say that the church is bleeding women. How welcome do you feel in your church with your pro-choice and your pro-contraceptive views?

TOWNSEND: Well, there are parts of the church that are not very welcoming to me. I have obviously been asked not to speak at certain places. I have been picketed. So there are parts of the church, you know, there are the bumper stickers that say, how can you call yourself a Catholic if you are pro-choice? So there are challenges. But you know, I believe that this is a large church, and that it is my responsibility as a thoughtful Catholic woman to be part of the church and to be a voice for another view.

I think that's what -- the church has changed over time. So you know, at one point in the 19th century, the pope condemned railroads as the work of the devil. So I understand that sometimes it's difficult to change. And women are particularly hard for all-male hierarchy to understand. And I do think that it is -- that many women have left. My friends have left.

But I don't want to leave. I think I'm lucky to have grown up in the United States, where we have been taught sometimes you may not agree with your government but you stay, because you believe that at the bottom, what the mission is, is so critically important. And that's what I believe about the church. It's been embracing. It reaches to the poor. The pope, as we talked about earlier, was incredible in his fight against communism. So you want that moral force to stay strong, and of course, to be better for women.

ZAHN: Well, Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, we appreciate your candor tonight. I know it has cost you dearly in some corners when you have spoken your mind about these very controversial issues. Thank you for joining us tonight.

TOWNSEND: Thank you.

ZAHN: As a young man, a future pope was active in the theater. That experience served him very well indeed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a man who mastered timing. He mastered a gesture. He mastered an angle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Stay with us, for more about the pope, the media and his message.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: It's 2:41 in the morning in Rome. And this is what it looks like in the area surrounding St. Peter's Basilica, a steady stream of mourners. The Vatican has announced that it will leave the basilica open 21 hours a day to accommodate the crowds between now and Friday morning, the time of the funeral. It's predicted that up to two million people will pay homage to the pope in that period of time.

Still to come here tonight, reflections on the man who also deserves the nickname of the Great Communicator. And one of the ways the pope communicated was through his poetry. We'll hear more about that, as well.

But first 42 minutes past the hour. Let's check in one more time with Sophia Choi of Headline News.

Hi, Sophia.

CHOI: Paula, 10,000 people are taking part in America's largest terrorism drill. The $16 million drill will last all week long. Today it included a simulated bioterror attack in New Jersey and a simulated chemical weapons attack in Connecticut. Thirty-five hundred people forced from their New Jersey homes by flooding won't be able to go back for a few days. More rain is expected later this week. The state's governor estimates property damage will be about $30 million.

The U.S. Border Patrol Agency is already complaining about civilian volunteers in the so-called Minuteman Project. The volunteers have reportedly been inadvertently tripping sensors that alert agents to possible illegal crossings. The volunteers say they plan to look for illegal immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico boarder and will report them to federal agents.

And the men's college basketball season will reach a crescendo in about 30 minutes when Illinois takes on North Carolina in the men's NCAA final. This would be Illinois first national championship and North Carolina's fourth.

And that's a look at the headlines -- Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks so much, Sophia. Appreciate it.

"LARRY KING LIVE" is just ahead at 9 p.m. Who is with you tonight, Larry?

LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Paula, we're in the same city, so near and yet so close. Nice to see you, Paula.

ZAHN: Nice to see you. You still don't come to visit in my studio. But I guess we're just 100 yards apart here.

KING: I think tomorrow we're both scheduled here in the afternoon.

ZAHN: That's right.

KING: Interesting to see daylight.

Anyway, I got great guests tonight. Gilbert Levine, he's been called the pope's conductor. One of our fellow folks from Brooklyn, by the way. He's conducted for the pope in many areas for 17 years. Andrea Bocelli's going to sing "Ave Maria" at the end of the show. And among the guests will be Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham. That's all ahead at 9 Eastern.

Paula, back to you.

ZAHN: Thanks, Larry. Big line-up as usual. Look forward to watching your show.

Pope John Paul II could speak at least eight languages. But it was his fluency in the media that set him apart from his predecessors and made him truly a great Communicator.

Here's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As much as he was a strong leader and a great thinker, John Paul II was a man well chosen for his time. When he took the papacy, almost by stealth in 1978, television, radio and the Internet were taking the world by storm. The world's first global TV news organization, CNN, was born a year and a half later. And from the beginning the pope who was trained as an actor and playwright saw the potential.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a man who mastered timing. He mastered the gesture. He mastered an angle. He mastered how to communicate with an audience very early in his life.

FOREMAN: He put his skills to use by creating the Vatican TV service, which documented every step in his long journeys around the globe. He pushed the idea of a Vatican web site. He participated in regular photo ops that would do any politician proud. He even took part in recording a much heralded CD, his words matched to music.

POPE JOHN PAUL II, LEADER OF CATHOLIC CHURCH: ... most high. Your deeds, oh lord, have made me glad.

FOREMAN (on camera): Time and again in his books, his speeches and his actions, he made it clear he was a life-long student of the media. And he prodded his followers to use the media to spread human rights, justice and tolerance everywhere.

(voice-over) Simply put, John Paul took a church in which change is often painfully slow, and he revolutionized its public outreach.

MONSIGNOR RONALD JAMESON, ST. MATTHEWS CATHEDRAL: If you go back all of these years that he's been the pope and you trace back where Rome, the Vatican is today, compared to then, with the use of the media, with modern technology, they have come years and years.

FOREMAN: Although John Paul became one of the world's most recognized faces, Vatican watchers say he hand picked his public relations team, and they picked his media moments to underscore church principles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so the images that we have of him of coming down from a plane and kissing the ground. Or we have him of shaking his finger at a recalcitrant politician, or we have the image of him in a cell, forgiving his attempted assassin, images that he, I'm sure, crafted to communicate in addition to the words that he would speak.

FOREMAN: Plenty of American Catholics were troubled by his firm opposition to abortion rights, divorce, women in the clergy.

HOWARD KURTZ, "WASHINGTON POST": He somehow managed to rise above those day-to-day controversies in part by the pictures, the images. And this was a pope who understood the power of that camera to elevate him and what he was trying to get across, beyond the disputes that any political figure inevitably gets involved in.

FOREMAN: The lessons continue. His death was announced through e-mail. Video of his body is being carried around the world. And it is fitting.

Once a TV crew asked John Paul if they could take his picture. He smiled in agreement and said, "If it doesn't happen on television, it doesn't happen."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: He figured that out early on. Tom Foreman reporting for us tonight.

Pope John Paul II also communicated through his writing. Please stay with us for some surprising insight into his personality through his poetry. Poetry about life and death.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: It's extraordinary to think that as pope, John Paul II devoted his life to the church. He also found time to be an actor, a scholar, a playwright, a man who could speak eight languages, and as if that weren't enough, he was also a poet.

Here's Walt Rodgers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALT RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. This marriage of religion and nature flowed through much of John Paul II's poetry.

Merrick Skarlinsky (ph) was the pope's friend, his literary critic and editor of John Paul's poetry. He knew the pontiff's poetic soul better than anyone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said that mountains are the most beautiful gift for mankind, the most beautiful gift of our lord for people.

RODGERS (on camera): What was it in nature that spoke...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Beauty. He admired the loneliness and silence of nature.

RODGERS: The woods of John Paul's native Poland became a metaphor for his theology. The poetry itself, meditative, at times mysterious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): These tired eyes saw the sign of the water of the night. Night water flowing in the words of prayer. Speaking of the failed crop of souls.

(voice-over) He wrote about his death in this poem.

It has been decided man is to die once and later the judgment.

RODGERS: That poem is called the Roman triptych, set in the Sistine chapel, underneath Michelangelo's fresco of creation and the final judgment. John Paul poses a startling question. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's asking God who is he?

RODGERS (on camera): The pope asks God are you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

RODGERS: Was he afraid of death?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody is. He was so human that I'm sure that he was also afraid, but you are less afraid about death if you are sure that you are only changing rooms.

RODGERS (voice-over): The pontiff apparently did have one fear, however, the literary critics who might reject his poetic offering.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was always saying, Mr. Murray, don't say to me if it is good or bad. Say if I can publish.

RODGERS: Knowing the Slavic soul's love of poetry, John Paul wove verse into his homilies in Poland. And poetry moved the people.

(on camera) To the pontiff poetry transcended all, succeeding where logic, philosophy, even theology fell short. Friends now say he is certain to discuss poetry with the angels in paradise. But what will he say to God?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something very humble. I love you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And that's Walt Rodgers with what the Vatican tells us he expressed the kind of love of the young people that he understood to be coming to the Vatican to pay their respects.

We're going to go back to the Vatican in just a moment. Please stay with us for some final thoughts from my colleagues Anderson Cooper and Christiane Amanpour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Tonight thousands of mourners continue to line up to pay their respects to Pope John Paul II. We're going to back to Rome now and my colleagues Anderson Cooper and Christiane Amanpour.

Anderson, I was struck by some of the folks you had -- Christiane had interviewed today, where they basically said they didn't care how long they had to stand in line. It was very important for them to have made the trip. They wanted to pay the respects to the pope.

COOPER: Yes, that's absolutely true. I was in St. Peter's Square earlier today when the pope's body was moved into the basilica. And the crowds, I mean there were just tens of thousands of people there. And I was all the way in the back and in the crowd.

And there was a nun from Australia who was -- she was only 5 feet tall, and she -- I saw her, because she kept trying to jump up. And she couldn't see above the crowd and she couldn't even see, really, the video monitors that a lot of people were watching.

But she left happy. She left smiling, just so happy to have been there, to have sort of felt the presence of the pontiff. And just been able to see all the people and talk with the people and sort of share in this very emotional moment.

ZAHN: Christiane, what touched you today about what you watched? You spent an awful of time watching these tens of thousands of people file into St. Peter's Basilica.

AMANPOUR: Well, them coming here and being prepared for wait for days. Also being inside myself, inside the basilica, and watching the solemnity with which people filed past.

But I think my enduring image of the day is thousands of miles from here in China, where we saw images of Chinese Catholics who are not really able to practice their faith. We saw them in church at worship.

ZAHN: Anderson, what will we see tomorrow?

COOPER: Well, I think you're going to see just so many people lined up. They're just closing it now. So for the next three hours or so it will be closed, but very early with first dawn people are going to be lining up yet again. I believe to be some 100,000 today may have seen the pontiff. It will certainly be more than that number tomorrow. We're expecting as many as two million people over the course of the next several days until Friday.

ZAHN: Anderson Cooper, Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much for being with us tonight.

And we want to thank you all for joining us tonight out there. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. Again, thank you for being with us tonight. We'll be back same time, same place tomorrow night. Good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 4, 2005 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome, everybody. Good evening. Glad to have you with us for this special edition of PAULA ZAHN NOW.
An historic pilgrimage has begun, bringing millions to witness centuries of tradition and honor the man who won their hearts. Tonight, Pope John Paul II and beyond.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): A magnificent procession, Pope John Paul II in Saint Peter's Square. The faithful gather to bid farewell to a man who touched their lives with warmth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was the people's pope. He was the people's pope.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was human. He really showed people that he loved them.

ZAHN: To a leader who touched their world with wisdom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just hope we can find somebody who can unite the church as much as he did.

ZAHN: How will the next pope confront the growing challenges to a global church?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Tonight, as you can see here at Saint Peter's Basilica, 2:00 local time, the body of Pope John Paul II lies in state. And thousands of mourners wait for their chance to say farewell, as thousands of others have been doing all day long.

And, again, thanks so much for being with us tonight as we continue our special coverage. It has been a day of extraordinary images of the grandeur and pageantry of the Catholic Church and of the people touched by the life of John Paul II.

My colleagues Christiane Amanpour and Anderson Cooper are covering the great gathering in Rome.

Let's get started with Anderson tonight.

Hi again, Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Paula. It has, as you said, truly been a remarkable day, a day, an intensely public day, tens of thousands of people coming to see Pope John Paul II, but also a day of very private grief and private mourning. As I said, some 100,000 people are believed to have already seen or are still currently standing in line waiting to see the pontiff, even though it's 2:02 a.m. here in Vatican City. They still are waiting and for many hours will continue to wait, this day not over yet.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): Here at the Vatican today, sights that we haven't witnessed for a generation, the awesome mysteries of life and death and faith in full public view. As the slow procession made its way from the Apostolic Palace across the huge expanse of Saint Peter's Square, a chore in Latin chanted a litany of the saints, invoking the names of the holiest men and women in the Catholic Church's 2,000-year history, asking each in turn to pray for the pope, his once-smiling face still recognizable, but frozen, his once vigorous body now lifeless, one foot tilted askew.

Slowly, tenderly, the pope's body was carried by the Vatican's official escorts. They are called the papal gentlemen. They made their way up the steps of Saint Peter's Basilica, then turned, so the huge crowd, tens of thousands, could get another look. Then the pope was carried inside for more prayers, more music, a sprinkling with holy water and readings from scripture.

The line of mourners finally began to snake inside, men, women, and children from all over the world. They had been waiting for hours. They came to stare, to pray, to make some gesture of respect, perhaps a picture or just to dab tears from their eyes. It will stay like this for 21 hours a day, until Friday morning and the solemn funeral mass. John Paul II will be laid to rest here at Saint Peter's, not in his native Poland.

Those decisions were made earlier in the day when the Catholic cardinals convened for the first meeting since the pope's death. Eventually, one of them will be elected as his successor. But the date for their conclave was not announced. This day was given over to mourning. It began with the pope's body still laying in repose in an ornate room called the Sala Clementina, where he used to welcome guest. Since yesterday, about 3,000 dignitaries have viewed the body in this intimate setting.

The Vatican also let some 200 journalists inside, including CNN's Jim Bittermann, who has covered the pope and the Vatican for more than two decades.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think the saddest thing for me was the way people came into the room and they looked at the pope. And a lot of them, I think, didn't know any other pope except the one that they had seen in perhaps the last 10 years. Those of us who were around early in the papacy saw a very different man that was active and charming and had an unbelievable magnetism with crowds. And it was just sad that some of those people that were going through the lines today really didn't know any other pope than the man that they were seeing there laid out on the pillows.

COOPER: One of many memories at the end of a remarkable papacy, the end of a remarkable life. Officials predict two million people will file past his body by Friday's funeral and will have their own stories to tell.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Earlier today, I was in Saint Peter's Square, when the pope's body was moved into the Basilica. I was standing in crowds of tens of thousands of people. Even though many didn't actually get to see him in person, he didn't pass by, none of them were disappointed. They all felt that they had a special connection to this pope and they wanted to bid him goodbye one last time.

CNN's chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, has been inside Saint Peter's Basilica -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, Paula, the cult of John Paul II is well and truly under way.

It was one of the cardinals here who even called him John Paul the Great, seeming to suggest that he may be in line for sainthood. In any event, the tens of thousands of people who have come here, even if many of them disagreed with some of his orthodox, conservative and traditional preachings, they have come here en masse to pay their last respects. Many of them are going to have to wait many, many hours.

And this Basilica was meant to be shut down for about three hours in order for them to be able to rearrange inside and prepare for the morning rush, so to speak, but it is still going. The crowds are still flowing in.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: I'm standing here in the Via Della Conciliazione, along with tens of thousands of pilgrims, who have come here for their chance to file past the body of the pope. This is the grand boulevard that leads up to Saint Peter's Basilica.

And, as they wait, what they can see is the proceedings on these huge screens that have been erected for this purpose. Right now, you are looking at the domes, the vaulted domes, of Saint Peter's Basilica, the dome that was planned and decorated by the great Michelangelo. And underneath that is the body of Pope John Paul II, and you can see people who are waiting and who are able to file past.

Now, again, we are looking at these people who are now beginning to walk. It only happens in bursts, because it takes a long time to get them through. Now they are walking. And even though they are going to be waiting for hours, they are not going to be able to do much more than just file past when they get inside, because they have to keep this huge flow of people moving. Let's ask a few people what they are expecting.

Sister, what is your name? Where are you from?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm Sister Myrian Petracezanya (ph) from Nigeria.

AMANPOUR: And tell me what your feelings are now, as you anticipate a long wait to go and see the pope.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm eager to go and see the man of God, the man of all, in heart of all, in heart of the world.

AMANPOUR: So how long do you think you're going to have to wait here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even if I wait for two days here in this line, I'm OK.

AMANPOUR: You are young people. The pope reached out to young people. Do you feel that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Definitely, of course.

AMANPOUR: What does he mean to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He means national humanity just coming together, just all of us, eternal love. And...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very unified.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: And you have come from London for this or you happened to be here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For this, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We actually booked our tickets before his death and...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We wanted to come before, while he was sick. But then it happened that he passed away on this Saturday and our flight was on the Sunday. And we have been here since then.

AMANPOUR: And how long are you prepared to wait to see him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, we have already been here for...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just had this conversation and we're here for the long haul.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, long term, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: So, you have been here how long already?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Coming up three hours now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three hours.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, yes. Come this far, got to do the rest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Bethany (ph) and I'm nearly 8 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has got her granddad's rosary on tonight. So, she is doing it for her granddad, who died two years ago. So, she is standing in for him tonight.

AMANPOUR: Oh, that's nice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And she's happy to do it.

AMANPOUR: Can I see, Bethany, your rosary?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Grandad's rosary.

AMANPOUR: This is your granddad's rosary?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it is.

AMANPOUR: So, you are doing this for your grandfather.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: That's very nice. I'm sure he would be very, very proud of you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So there you saw. There you saw the people who are waiting to go in and the people who actually were inside. And, as I say, for all the waiting they have to do, it's quite a brisk pace they have around the laying in state of Pope John Paul II, because they have so many people to get through.

And these people are going to be here in their tens of thousands until Friday, which is the day of the funeral -- Paula.

ZAHN: I absolutely love, Christiane, what the Nigerian nun told you, that, if it takes two days to file past the pope's body, that's OK. She just wants to pay her respects. See you a little bit later on tonight. Thanks so much, Christiane.

And even though he was world famous, there are many stories about the pope that you haven't heard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KAROL HAGENHUBER, FRIEND OF POPE JOHN PAUL II: Every time he was going to school, he stopped at the church to have a prayer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Coming up, a childhood friend remembers the boy who would grow up to lead the Catholic Church.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Some extraordinary images of just how much power this pope had through his reach.

In just a moment, a boyhood friend shares his memories of growing up with a future pope. And then, a little bit later on, the Catholic Church's troubled relationship with women.

First, though, it's just about 13 minutes past the hour. Time to check in with Sophia Choi of Headline News. She joins me now to check some of the day's other top stories.

Hi, Sophia.

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Paula.

Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko is on his first trip to America since his country's disputed election was settled. Today, Yushchenko and President Bush discussed Iraq's reconstruction. Yushchenko says he's committed to the training of Iraqi security forces, even though Ukraine is withdrawing its troops from Iraq. President Bush says America is blessed to have soldiers like the late Sergeant Paul Smith.

Smith's 11-year-old son accepted his father's Medal of Honor today, the first given for the Iraq war. The U.S. military says Smith saved over 100 U.S. lives before he was shot in a Baghdad firefight.

Jurors at Michael Jackson's child molestation trial heard a young man from the pop singer's past break down today. The now 24-year-old claims Jackson initiated tickling games that led to fondling. Prosecutors say the witness got $2 million for settling his own molestation case against Jackson.

Discount air carriers may be the way to go if you are looking for a quality flight. A new report filed with Transportation Department found five of the top six performing airlines are low-cost carriers.

Those are the headlines -- Paula, now back to you.

ZAHN: Sophia, thanks so much. We'll see you in about a half hour or so.

And, as the world's one billion Catholics mourn Pope John Paul II and a few and just a few mourn the man they knew long before he ever became the beloved leader of the Roman Catholic Church.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): The world knew him as Pope John Paul II, but to Karol Hagenhuber, he was Lolek.

HAGENHUBER: I remember him like he used to look as a teenager, exactly. I just still have this in my memory.

ZAHN: They met in high school. Both boys loved sports.

HAGENHUBER: His favorite sport was skiing. And we used to ski together, you know, also. And he loved that sport so much.

ZAHN: But, even as a teenager, Hagenhuber says there was something special about the young Karol Wojtyla.

HAGENHUBER: He would recite Vergilius, Plato, Homer just from memory. I mean, we were amazed how much he could retain.

ZAHN: Hagenhuber also remembers a young man who was very religious.

HAGENHUBER: Every time, he was going to school, he stopped at the church to have a prayer. His mother died when he was 9 years old. They lost his brother to sickness, too. So, there was only his father and him left. And, you know, this itself, usually, when something like that happens, it brings you closer to God.

ZAHN: Life was not easy for his friend.

HAGENHUBER: He knew what poverty meant. And his father was living on pension, so there was never enough money. They had to look for every penny they spent.

Hagenhuber believes that the loss of Wojtyla's family and the hardship of life during World War II influenced him to become a priest and later as pope pushed him to try to reduce people's suffering in the world. After World War II, the two friends went their separate ways. Hagenhuber eventually made his way to the United States. It was almost 20 years before the two men met again. At that point, Karol Wojtyla was archbishop of Krakow.

HAGENHUBER: So, I didn't know how to express myself, especially introducing my wife, you know. And I say, your excellency, this is my wife, you know. And he said, you know, what you talking about? Did you forget my first name? And we embrace and everything.

ZAHN: Little did Hagenhuber realize what would happen in 1978.

HAGENHUBER: Before the election, you know, I told my buddies at work, you know what? My buddy from high school, he's in Rome. They are going to elect a pope. And I said, it's not going to be him because this is almost impossible, you know.

ZAHN: But the impossible did happen.

HAGENHUBER: It was a shock to me. I had tears in my eyes. And I couldn't believe it.

ZAHN: Over the years, the two friends would correspond with each other and, on a few occasions, even met in person. The last time Hagenhuber saw John Paul II was in 2002 in Poland at a dinner with the pope and several other school friends. Hagenhuber says he could see that the pope's health was failing.

HAGENHUBER: When the dinner was over, he was not -- he didn't ask to take him. He got up, and walking to the next room, trying to walk by himself. And somebody just help him. He tried to show that something perked him up being with us.

ZAHN: Hagenhuber believes the pope knew it would be his last trip to Poland. Over the next few years, Hagenhuber, like the rest of the world, saw the deterioration in the pope's health.

HAGENHUBER: What bothered him probably most, that he couldn't express himself. He was such a -- one of the greatest communicators in the history of church, and altogether, you know. And that he couldn't communicate himself with people like he did in old days, that probably bothered him more than anything.

ZAHN: Hagenhuber's last letter from the pope was in 2003. He thanked him for his friendship.

HAGENHUBER: I'm privileged, so much, to know a man which is going to be in the history for ages like the greatest pope. And I call him already John Paul the Great.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: A remembrance from a childhood friend who knew the pope, as we said, long before he ever came to the Vatican.

In a moment, a woman whose meeting with the pope may have actually helped save his life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): You see me in the pope's arm and then suddenly he's fired upon and falls to the ground.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: An amazing story of the day a gunman tried to kill the pope. We'll share it with you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Those faces say it all.

Nearly 24 years ago in Saint Peter's Square, where pope John Paul crossed today for the last time, a Turkish gunman almost took his life. He was saved by a baby girl he had reached out to hold just as the trigger was pulled. That baby's name was Sara (ph).

And Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci has the story of how her life was also changed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Thousands gathered to say goodbye to their spiritual leader in the very square where he was nearly killed more than two decades ago. It was May 13, 1981. The pope picked up a baby girl as he greeted worshipers in Saint Peter's Square. A gunman aimed and fired. The pope was hit. The baby was not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (through translator): Spontaneously, I would say that I did save his life. But, actually, perhaps, he saved mine. In a way, he protected me a bit, like a father would.

VINCI: The would-be assassin, Mehmet Ali Agca, a Turkish militant, would later say he couldn't aim properly because the baby was so close. They call her the baby that saved the pope's life.

Today, Sara Barkley (ph) is 26 and remembers nothing of that incident when she was just 18 months old. What she knows, she learned from articles and letters her parents collected.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Because you see me in the pope's arms and then suddenly he's fired upon and falls to the ground, people wrote to me. They were scared about what happened to me.

VINCI: All the media attention about what happened eventually took its toll. and Sara's devotion to the pontiff waned until she saw his frail condition on Easter Sunday.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I realized that, after 24 years, something opened up and I cried. And only a few days later, he died and all my emotions overflowed.

VINCI: Years later, the pope visited the gunman in jail to tell him he was forgiven. Now Ali Agca says the death of the man he once tried to kill brings him great sadness.

Sara is now married and nine months pregnant. The death of John Paul II and the imminent birth of her child have her reflecting on the cycle of life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): It's an immense coincidence, especially if you look at all the newspapers announcing his death. Many showed photos of the pope with a child in his arms, a symbol of death, but also a symbol of life and future.

VINCI: Sara says she is deeply saddened by John Paul's death, but is looking forward to telling her child how she became the baby that saved the pope.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: The most amazing thing in all of that is the power of forgiveness. Alessio Vinci. Agca served 20 years for the assassination attempt and is still in prison on unrelated charges.

Coming up next, one of the biggest challenges facing the next pope.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know that we have a woman's question. There isn't anybody who doesn't know that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: When we come back, women's roles in the modern world and in the Catholic Church.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: As you have seen in the endless stream of mourners, many women around the world are devoted to Pope John Paul II. But over the years, his policies on women's roles in the church have faced intense criticism. Here's CNN Vatican analyst, Delia Gallagher.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST (voice-over): Pope John Paul II's very first message on the status of women came out on New Year's Day, 1995. One them: Women have the right to be fully involved in every area of public life. A few months later, on the eve of the fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, he made an unprecedented move, becoming the first pope in history to apologize to women.

"How many women have been and continue to be valued more for their physical appearance than for their skill, their professionalism, their intellectual abilities. And if objective blame has belonged to not just a few members of the church, for this I am truly sorry."

Many thought that this apology would herald a new era in the Catholic Church's teaching on gender and sexuality as well. But it was not to be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If we have a papal encyclical and a papal apology calling for a program for the promotion of women, where's the program?

GALLAGHER: For some, the program was clear. Both within the Vatican and around the world, John Paul did promote women.

The fact that there are women working in higher positions, staff positions in the Vatican is one clear sign. That we are named to represent the Vatican in different things. They trust us to be there. A number of other things like that are all to be honored only because of John Paul II.

GALLAGHER: In his many travels, he encouraged women both in their careers and in their roles as mothers. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whether you are the mother superior of an order of nuns, whether you are teaching in an inner city school as a female teacher, or whether you are the stay-at-home mom, your job is really important to the church. And the pope says this quite clearly.

GALLAGHER: But for others, a program that promotes women everywhere but on the altar is no program at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any institution that is not fully incorporating women leaves out half the agendas of the human race.

GALLAGHER: But John Paul II did not budge from the long-standing Catholic tradition of an all-male priesthood, nor on allowing the use of contraception, causing some women to protest and others to leave the church altogether.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The church is bleeding women. And someday that's going to affect us as a church, and it's not going to be long and may indeed be happening now.

GALLAGHER: To understand the pope's position, which seemed to encourage some women's issues and discourage others, it helps to look at his model of womanhood: The Virgin Mary. He believed it was she who saved his life when a would-be assassin attempted to kill him in St. Peter's Square in 1981. And it was Mary's openness to motherhood that the pope said women should imitate -- hence the ban on abortion and contraception.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The pope is talking about in general, this is a gift that God has given to women in particular. The human race is entrusted to women.

GALLAGHER: In modern society, however, not all women share the pope's vision, and in an age of AIDS, his refusal to allow the use of condoms caused many to call him out of touch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He seems to have adopted the position of the philosophers and theologians from about the 13th century.

GALLAGHER (on camera): The pope's reasoning when it came to women's issues was based on centuries-old church teaching, and is largely shared by his cardinal advisers, one of whom will become the next pope. Anyone expecting radical change will likely be disappointed.

Delia Gallagher, for CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And a woman with very strong ideas on women in the church joins me now, former Maryland Lieutenant Governor Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, joining us from Washington. Her uncle, John F. Kennedy, was the United States' only Catholic president. Always good to see you. Welcome.

KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND, FORMER LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR OF MARYLAND: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: So Delia just helped us better understand this great debate within the Catholic Church. In your view, did this pope advance the cause of women and the church?

TOWNSEND: Well, there's a lot to be done with the Catholic Church and women. And I think it was very helpful the pope apologized for what he had done for -- what the church had done to women, how they had mistreated women, who at one time had called them "misbegotten males."

So I think that was very positive. But as you know, the Catholic Church moves slowly, and to embrace the cause of women wholeheartedly would have been very difficult for them to do. I think that the fact that we're talking about it this evening and that it has been a thread throughout the last week indicates the real concern. You know, the Catholic Church is supposed to reach out to the poor, to the disenfranchised, and many of them across the world are women. So my belief is that the holy spirit will eventually touch the church, but at the moment, it's been a real challenge.

ZAHN: Is that hard for you to reconcile when you love this church you grew up on? And you also accept the fact that some of the policies are exclusionary of women.

TOWNSEND: Yes. I mean, I did -- I do love the church. It's been an enormous comfort to me. Prayer -- the fact that I'm part of something that is universal, the part -- that this lasted for 2,000 years, that it's been part of my family. It's like family to me.

So in that sense, I love the church, but I understand that you can't always get, you know, what would be ideal. And, remember, you know, Galileo was part of the church, and it took the church quite a while to apologize to Galileo.

So I have faith that over time, it will change. Now, the hope is -- my hope is, of course, that it can change sooner rather than later, because I think it's better for women. But on the other hand, it has made many women really think about the church, really think about what roles we can play. And that's a value, as well.

ZAHN: We just heard a Benedictine nun basically say that the church is bleeding women. How welcome do you feel in your church with your pro-choice and your pro-contraceptive views?

TOWNSEND: Well, there are parts of the church that are not very welcoming to me. I have obviously been asked not to speak at certain places. I have been picketed. So there are parts of the church, you know, there are the bumper stickers that say, how can you call yourself a Catholic if you are pro-choice? So there are challenges. But you know, I believe that this is a large church, and that it is my responsibility as a thoughtful Catholic woman to be part of the church and to be a voice for another view.

I think that's what -- the church has changed over time. So you know, at one point in the 19th century, the pope condemned railroads as the work of the devil. So I understand that sometimes it's difficult to change. And women are particularly hard for all-male hierarchy to understand. And I do think that it is -- that many women have left. My friends have left.

But I don't want to leave. I think I'm lucky to have grown up in the United States, where we have been taught sometimes you may not agree with your government but you stay, because you believe that at the bottom, what the mission is, is so critically important. And that's what I believe about the church. It's been embracing. It reaches to the poor. The pope, as we talked about earlier, was incredible in his fight against communism. So you want that moral force to stay strong, and of course, to be better for women.

ZAHN: Well, Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, we appreciate your candor tonight. I know it has cost you dearly in some corners when you have spoken your mind about these very controversial issues. Thank you for joining us tonight.

TOWNSEND: Thank you.

ZAHN: As a young man, a future pope was active in the theater. That experience served him very well indeed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a man who mastered timing. He mastered a gesture. He mastered an angle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Stay with us, for more about the pope, the media and his message.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: It's 2:41 in the morning in Rome. And this is what it looks like in the area surrounding St. Peter's Basilica, a steady stream of mourners. The Vatican has announced that it will leave the basilica open 21 hours a day to accommodate the crowds between now and Friday morning, the time of the funeral. It's predicted that up to two million people will pay homage to the pope in that period of time.

Still to come here tonight, reflections on the man who also deserves the nickname of the Great Communicator. And one of the ways the pope communicated was through his poetry. We'll hear more about that, as well.

But first 42 minutes past the hour. Let's check in one more time with Sophia Choi of Headline News.

Hi, Sophia.

CHOI: Paula, 10,000 people are taking part in America's largest terrorism drill. The $16 million drill will last all week long. Today it included a simulated bioterror attack in New Jersey and a simulated chemical weapons attack in Connecticut. Thirty-five hundred people forced from their New Jersey homes by flooding won't be able to go back for a few days. More rain is expected later this week. The state's governor estimates property damage will be about $30 million.

The U.S. Border Patrol Agency is already complaining about civilian volunteers in the so-called Minuteman Project. The volunteers have reportedly been inadvertently tripping sensors that alert agents to possible illegal crossings. The volunteers say they plan to look for illegal immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico boarder and will report them to federal agents.

And the men's college basketball season will reach a crescendo in about 30 minutes when Illinois takes on North Carolina in the men's NCAA final. This would be Illinois first national championship and North Carolina's fourth.

And that's a look at the headlines -- Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks so much, Sophia. Appreciate it.

"LARRY KING LIVE" is just ahead at 9 p.m. Who is with you tonight, Larry?

LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Paula, we're in the same city, so near and yet so close. Nice to see you, Paula.

ZAHN: Nice to see you. You still don't come to visit in my studio. But I guess we're just 100 yards apart here.

KING: I think tomorrow we're both scheduled here in the afternoon.

ZAHN: That's right.

KING: Interesting to see daylight.

Anyway, I got great guests tonight. Gilbert Levine, he's been called the pope's conductor. One of our fellow folks from Brooklyn, by the way. He's conducted for the pope in many areas for 17 years. Andrea Bocelli's going to sing "Ave Maria" at the end of the show. And among the guests will be Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham. That's all ahead at 9 Eastern.

Paula, back to you.

ZAHN: Thanks, Larry. Big line-up as usual. Look forward to watching your show.

Pope John Paul II could speak at least eight languages. But it was his fluency in the media that set him apart from his predecessors and made him truly a great Communicator.

Here's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As much as he was a strong leader and a great thinker, John Paul II was a man well chosen for his time. When he took the papacy, almost by stealth in 1978, television, radio and the Internet were taking the world by storm. The world's first global TV news organization, CNN, was born a year and a half later. And from the beginning the pope who was trained as an actor and playwright saw the potential.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a man who mastered timing. He mastered the gesture. He mastered an angle. He mastered how to communicate with an audience very early in his life.

FOREMAN: He put his skills to use by creating the Vatican TV service, which documented every step in his long journeys around the globe. He pushed the idea of a Vatican web site. He participated in regular photo ops that would do any politician proud. He even took part in recording a much heralded CD, his words matched to music.

POPE JOHN PAUL II, LEADER OF CATHOLIC CHURCH: ... most high. Your deeds, oh lord, have made me glad.

FOREMAN (on camera): Time and again in his books, his speeches and his actions, he made it clear he was a life-long student of the media. And he prodded his followers to use the media to spread human rights, justice and tolerance everywhere.

(voice-over) Simply put, John Paul took a church in which change is often painfully slow, and he revolutionized its public outreach.

MONSIGNOR RONALD JAMESON, ST. MATTHEWS CATHEDRAL: If you go back all of these years that he's been the pope and you trace back where Rome, the Vatican is today, compared to then, with the use of the media, with modern technology, they have come years and years.

FOREMAN: Although John Paul became one of the world's most recognized faces, Vatican watchers say he hand picked his public relations team, and they picked his media moments to underscore church principles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so the images that we have of him of coming down from a plane and kissing the ground. Or we have him of shaking his finger at a recalcitrant politician, or we have the image of him in a cell, forgiving his attempted assassin, images that he, I'm sure, crafted to communicate in addition to the words that he would speak.

FOREMAN: Plenty of American Catholics were troubled by his firm opposition to abortion rights, divorce, women in the clergy.

HOWARD KURTZ, "WASHINGTON POST": He somehow managed to rise above those day-to-day controversies in part by the pictures, the images. And this was a pope who understood the power of that camera to elevate him and what he was trying to get across, beyond the disputes that any political figure inevitably gets involved in.

FOREMAN: The lessons continue. His death was announced through e-mail. Video of his body is being carried around the world. And it is fitting.

Once a TV crew asked John Paul if they could take his picture. He smiled in agreement and said, "If it doesn't happen on television, it doesn't happen."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: He figured that out early on. Tom Foreman reporting for us tonight.

Pope John Paul II also communicated through his writing. Please stay with us for some surprising insight into his personality through his poetry. Poetry about life and death.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: It's extraordinary to think that as pope, John Paul II devoted his life to the church. He also found time to be an actor, a scholar, a playwright, a man who could speak eight languages, and as if that weren't enough, he was also a poet.

Here's Walt Rodgers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALT RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. This marriage of religion and nature flowed through much of John Paul II's poetry.

Merrick Skarlinsky (ph) was the pope's friend, his literary critic and editor of John Paul's poetry. He knew the pontiff's poetic soul better than anyone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said that mountains are the most beautiful gift for mankind, the most beautiful gift of our lord for people.

RODGERS (on camera): What was it in nature that spoke...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Beauty. He admired the loneliness and silence of nature.

RODGERS: The woods of John Paul's native Poland became a metaphor for his theology. The poetry itself, meditative, at times mysterious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): These tired eyes saw the sign of the water of the night. Night water flowing in the words of prayer. Speaking of the failed crop of souls.

(voice-over) He wrote about his death in this poem.

It has been decided man is to die once and later the judgment.

RODGERS: That poem is called the Roman triptych, set in the Sistine chapel, underneath Michelangelo's fresco of creation and the final judgment. John Paul poses a startling question. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's asking God who is he?

RODGERS (on camera): The pope asks God are you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

RODGERS: Was he afraid of death?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody is. He was so human that I'm sure that he was also afraid, but you are less afraid about death if you are sure that you are only changing rooms.

RODGERS (voice-over): The pontiff apparently did have one fear, however, the literary critics who might reject his poetic offering.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was always saying, Mr. Murray, don't say to me if it is good or bad. Say if I can publish.

RODGERS: Knowing the Slavic soul's love of poetry, John Paul wove verse into his homilies in Poland. And poetry moved the people.

(on camera) To the pontiff poetry transcended all, succeeding where logic, philosophy, even theology fell short. Friends now say he is certain to discuss poetry with the angels in paradise. But what will he say to God?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something very humble. I love you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And that's Walt Rodgers with what the Vatican tells us he expressed the kind of love of the young people that he understood to be coming to the Vatican to pay their respects.

We're going to go back to the Vatican in just a moment. Please stay with us for some final thoughts from my colleagues Anderson Cooper and Christiane Amanpour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Tonight thousands of mourners continue to line up to pay their respects to Pope John Paul II. We're going to back to Rome now and my colleagues Anderson Cooper and Christiane Amanpour.

Anderson, I was struck by some of the folks you had -- Christiane had interviewed today, where they basically said they didn't care how long they had to stand in line. It was very important for them to have made the trip. They wanted to pay the respects to the pope.

COOPER: Yes, that's absolutely true. I was in St. Peter's Square earlier today when the pope's body was moved into the basilica. And the crowds, I mean there were just tens of thousands of people there. And I was all the way in the back and in the crowd.

And there was a nun from Australia who was -- she was only 5 feet tall, and she -- I saw her, because she kept trying to jump up. And she couldn't see above the crowd and she couldn't even see, really, the video monitors that a lot of people were watching.

But she left happy. She left smiling, just so happy to have been there, to have sort of felt the presence of the pontiff. And just been able to see all the people and talk with the people and sort of share in this very emotional moment.

ZAHN: Christiane, what touched you today about what you watched? You spent an awful of time watching these tens of thousands of people file into St. Peter's Basilica.

AMANPOUR: Well, them coming here and being prepared for wait for days. Also being inside myself, inside the basilica, and watching the solemnity with which people filed past.

But I think my enduring image of the day is thousands of miles from here in China, where we saw images of Chinese Catholics who are not really able to practice their faith. We saw them in church at worship.

ZAHN: Anderson, what will we see tomorrow?

COOPER: Well, I think you're going to see just so many people lined up. They're just closing it now. So for the next three hours or so it will be closed, but very early with first dawn people are going to be lining up yet again. I believe to be some 100,000 today may have seen the pontiff. It will certainly be more than that number tomorrow. We're expecting as many as two million people over the course of the next several days until Friday.

ZAHN: Anderson Cooper, Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much for being with us tonight.

And we want to thank you all for joining us tonight out there. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. Again, thank you for being with us tonight. We'll be back same time, same place tomorrow night. Good night.

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