Return to Transcripts main page

Paula Zahn Now

Video Voyeurism; The Lost Boys; Protecting Against 'Upskirting'; Security Camera Use Climbing

Aired August 04, 2005 - 20:00   ET


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. Glad to have you with us tonight.
A mystery town out in the desert desperate to shut out the rest of the world.


ZAHN (voice-over): A lost generation, boys with multiple mothers and dozens of brothers and sisters thrown out by their families.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many of them have had nowhere to go, food to eat.

ZAHN: Right here in America. So, why is a renegade religion banishing so many young men?

An explosive phenomenon. They call it upskirting. Hidden cameras roll while you change, while you walk, even while you shop.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was just right behind us with the camera. You could see right up the skirt, no problem.

ZAHN: How can you avoid becoming someone's Internet fantasy?

And questions you might ask your doctor after a few drinks?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But is it bad to crack your knuckles?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do men have nipples?

ZAHN: And the answers you always wondered about.


ZAHN: We begin tonight with the lost boys. Would you disown your son because he refused to obey your rules? Would you banish him from your house, from your entire community, even at the age of 9 and 10?

Well, that's what investigators say has happened to hundreds of boys over the last seven years at a secretive religious sect in the West. And these boys' alleged crimes? Watching movies, swearing, even just wanting to go to public school. And, as you'll see, it gets even more sinister. This is a story we've been working on for a long time, a major investigation into this reclusive community. In a moment, my conversation with two of the lost boys.

First, here's Sean Callebs.


SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the edge of the desert straddling the Utah and Arizona border, a community of breakaway Mormon fundamentalists lives in shuttered houses behind walls and gates, miles from other towns. In Utah, it's called Hildale, and, in Arizona, Colorado City.

For generations, this group of about 7,000 people has shunned the rest of America and the opinions of outsiders.

GARY ENGELS, MOHAVE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: They put these walls up for privacy.

CALLEBS (voice-over): County investigator Gary Engels has come to know a lot about this secretive group.

(on camera): Do they really believe they're the chosen ones?


CALLEBS: When judgment day comes, what happens to these chosen people?

ENGELS: These chosen people believe that they will be lifted up while God sweeps the Earth clean of the wicked people. And then they'll be set back down to rebuild the Earth and replenish it.

CALLEBS: Engels has been sent to this town to investigate a variety of disturbing allegations and criminal charges, ranging from child neglect to rape and theft.

ENGELS: And I came to be here because of all of the different types of accusations and rumors that have been coming out of this place for some time.

CALLEBS: The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or FLDS, has been here since the 1930s. It broke away from the mainstream Mormon Church more than a century ago. The breakaway sect wanted to pursue polygamy, a practice renounced by mainstream Mormons for more than 100 years and outlawed in every state.

The group considers its leader, Warren Jeffs, a prophet to be obeyed without question. Former members say Jeffs has several dozen wives. He selects multiple wives for other church elders, sometimes reassigning wives from one man to another, and imposes rigid rules.

SAM BROWER, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Warren Jeffs does need to be stopped. He has to be reined in and stopped.

CALLEBS: Sam Brower is a local private investigator.

BROWER: If they argue with him or voice any dissension, they're kicked out.

Brower has been hired by some of those who have been kicked out, a group of adolescent boys. Over the last seven years, investigators like Sam and Gary estimate as many 400 boys, some as young as 13 years old, have been banished by Warren Jeffs for seemingly trivial infractions.

RICHARD GILBERT, RAISED BY POLYGAMISTS: I was excommunicated by the prophet Warren Jeffs at the age of 16 because I decided that I wanted to go to public school.

CALLEBS: Author Jon Krakauer wrote about this community in his book "Under the Banner of Heaven." At a news conference not long ago, he warned about Jeffs.

JON KRAKAUER, AUTHOR, "UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN": An absolute tyrant rules the lives of 10,000 people and seems to take pleasure in destroying families.

CALLEBS: Alongside Krakauer, some of the so-called lost boys, all banished by Jeffs, told their stories.

TOMMY STEED, RAISED BY POLYGAMISTS: I had nowhere to go, no food to eat.

CALLEBS: Tommy Steed committed the crime, he says, of watching movies.

Each of these boys has his own story, having a girlfriend, using curse words, going to beer parties, refusing religious instruction, all causes for excommunication for these and so many other boys.

GIDEON BARLOW, RAISED BY POLYGAMISTS: I just loved my little brother. And he was always on my mind. I was just thinking about him 24/7.

CALLEBS: Seventeen-year-old Gideon Barlow was banished by his family from this same community.

BARLOW: Now I just try to -- to push him out, because it hurts to think about him.

CALLEBS: Gideon was reluctant to talk about his family in Colorado City. But authorities and his adoptive family told us he was kicked out of his home for wearing short-sleeves shirt and listening to popular music. Gideon, then only 16, was sent packing with a little more than the clothes he was wearing.

ENGELS: Imagine what it's like to be told, you know, get out. He's sent down to St. George looking for someplace to live. None of his family will take him in down there, the men that are out. And, fortunately, he was able to make contact with some good individuals and ended up where he is today.

CALLEBS: Through an informal network of concerned people, he arrived less than a year ago at the home of Stacia (ph) and Neal Glausier (ph). they adopted him after reading about the plight of these young boys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Being a mother, hearing about a boy being out on the street.

CALLEBS: She remembers how frightened Gideon was.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said, I am dead to my mother, so I might as well be dead myself.

CALLEBS: When he left, Gideon was forced to live hand to mouth on the streets, sleeping on the floors and couches of people he met along the way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When he first came, he had been two months in that world of drugs, alcohol.

BARLOW: I hate my past. I wanted to take my mind off of it. I don't want to be a lost boy. So many of them have drug problems and addictions that they got to get over.

CALLEBS (on camera): There's also speculation that the boys are kind of drummed out because they're competition for these young brides.

BROWER: Right. That's -- I mean, that can't help but be true. Mathematics alone would dictate that there has to be a lot more hens than roosters in the community.

CALLEBS (voice-over): The prophet, who investigators say created this situation, Warren Jeffs, is now on the run. He faces an arrest warrant issued by the state of Arizona, which alleges a series of abusing, including engaging in sex with a minor.

(on camera): Where he Warren Jeffs today?

ENGELS: I have no idea.

CALLEBS: Is he dangerous?

ENGELS: Well, when you have a radical person like he is that has the control over the people he has, I think he's unstable.

CALLEBS (voice-over): As for Gideon Barlow, he's determined to put his past behind him.

BARLOW: Nobody was sent to Earth to be a nothing. There's got to be a plan for everyone here. So, I'm just trying to make the best out of mine. I'm not a lost boy.


ZAHN: That was Sean Callebs reporting.

As for what the FLDS has to say about all this, it's kind of hard to know. The mayor of Colorado City told us the people in his community are content and don't want to say anything to reporters. He said past experiences with the media have been mad.

Meanwhile, the Utah State Attorney General's Office told us they're looking into the various allegations against members of the FLDS.

So, I'm sure you have dozens of questions, a I do. Coming up, what is it like growing up in a family with rotating mothers and literally dozens of brothers and sisters?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't really think much of it then, because I didn't know anything else. We couldn't watch TV.


ZAHN: What else couldn't they do? Two of the banished boys tell me their stories next.

And a little bit later on, could millions of people on the Web be watching you in your underwear? We're going to alert to what's happening in some of the darkest corners of the Internet. Beware.


ZAHN: You're about to meet two teenage boys who grow up in the polygamist community we told you about before the break. John Jessop and Carl Ream's families are members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. John has 13 brothers and sisters and, when he was 13, was kicked out of the community by its leader, Warren Jeffs. Carl has at least 30 brothers and sisters. And he was 10 when he ran away.

I talked with boys and their lawyer, Joanne Suder.

And I started off by asking John what it was like growing up in a polygamist family.


JOHN JESSOP, RAISED BY POLYGAMISTS: I didn't really think much of it then, because I didn't know anything else. We couldn't watch TV. We were not allowed to associate with girls, not even really look at them. We couldn't listen to music, wear long pants, not baggy. And we had to keep a clean haircut all the time.

ZAHN: At what point did you say, I can't live this way anymore?

JESSOP: Actually, what happened was, when I was 10, my mom got reassigned to the bishop in Colorado City. When I moved there at the time, he probably had like 30 -- about 32 wives. When my mother got reassigned to him, there was a lot of kids. I decided, I can't stand this anymore. I was about 13.

And I started to kind of rebel a little bit. I disappeared for three days, didn't tell anybody where I was going. (CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Did anybody care?

JESSOP: They did. They found out where I was. My brother got ahold of me and told me, the prophet wants you out. Come and get your stuff or else we're going to put it out. I told my mom goodbye. It was kind of hard. She was crying. I didn't really know what to say. So I just left.

ZAHN: How hard was that for you?

JESSOP: It was really hard. It's still affecting me now, I mean, just thinking about it.

ZAHN: You describe what happened to you in a very matter-of-fact way, because that was your life. You were 13 years old. How scared were you?

JESSOP: At first, I thought it was cool. I was like, hey, I'm free. I can go out and have a lot of fun. And -- but after a little bit, I decided this isn't as easy as I thought it was going to be.

ZAHN: Did you feel guilty about thrown out? Did you feel that you had done something horribly wrong?

JESSOP: Yes. I used to blame myself a lot for it. But I don't know really anymore. I don't really know what to think about my family. I never talk to them anymore. I can't get ahold of my mom anymore. I have to send a letter to her P.O. box.

ZAHN: How long has it been since you have had any contact with your mother?

JESSOP: Probably about four months now.

ZAHN: It's got to hurt.

JESSOP: Yes. It does.

ZAHN: What do you think that she thought she did wrong?

JESSOP: She's brainwashed in the community. She thinks that that's the only way. She thinks that she didn't teach me what was right, I guess, according to the community.

ZAHN: Now, Carl, your story is completely different, because you weren't thrown out.


ZAHN: You left on your own.

REAM: Yes.

ZAHN: Why did you get out? REAM: I got so restricted. I mean, I got to where it was so bad, my mom would call the cops just because she didn't know where I was and she knew that cops was the only authority that could even really even halfway control me, because I really didn't want to listen to anybody else, because just pretty much the rest of them betrayed me.

And so, she would call the cops even in the middle of the day, and they would come and get me and take me home.


ZAHN: Where would you be?

REAM: I could be working, helping somebody out. As long as my mom didn't know where I was, I pretty much was in danger of being picked up and taken home.

ZAHN: How old were you?

REAM: I was -- when I started rebelling, I was right around about 10 years old.

ZAHN: And what were you rebelled against?

REAM: I got really curious about traveling and curious about the outside world, you could say. And when I started looking into it, then my parents and everybody else bit back so hard, it was almost abnormal, that, you know, they would shun it that much.

ZAHN: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

REAM: My family consists of about 30 to 32 brothers and sisters.

ZAHN: And what was it like to live that way?

REAM: Well, for a while, then, the mothers each had their own house, which is common there, because mothers do not get along very good, for the most part.


JESSOP: We were all forced to grow up real fast.

REAM: Yes. Because we were...


JESSOP: We all grew up really fast.

ZAHN: What do you mean by that?


REAM: We were raising our own brothers and sisters. JESSOP: We had to learn everything in a short period of time. That's just kind of the way it's always been for all of us. I mean, talk to any us. We all grew up real fast.

ZAHN: Do you think you lived in a cult?

JESSOP: Yes. I think I did.

ZAHN: Explain to us why.

JESSOP: I have seen a little bit of -- I have heard a little bit and seen a little bit about different cults. And it's -- they're so similar, the way the people behaved, what they'll do. It's how far they'll go to please the leader.

ZAHN: And that is Warren Jeffs?


REAM: Yes.

ZAHN: What do you think of Warren Jeffs?

JESSOP: He ruined my relationship with my family, totally destroyed it.

ZAHN: How?

JESSOP: I -- they all think I'm wicked. They all think I'm going to go to hell and they don't want to have anything to do with me. Even now, I still have thoughts about -- I wonder if I'm going to go to hell and they're going to all be lifted up.

ZAHN: Did he ruin your life?

REAM: Yes, he did a good job at it. He tried.

ZAHN: You said he tried.

REAM: He tried.


ZAHN: He didn't succeed?

REAM: No. I still have the rest of my life to make up for it.

ZAHN: And how do you plan to do that?

REAM: I plan on making my little brothers and sisters' lives better than mine. And that will make my life.

ZAHN: Are you bitter what's happened to you?

REAM: I guess you can say not verbally. But, in my mind, I wish -- you know, I'm a little bit bitter about it. I think it makes us all a little bit that way.

ZAHN: How many nights have you cried yourself to sleep?

REAM: A couple about my little brothers and sisters and stuff like that.

ZAHN: It seems to be more about them right now than about yourself. Do you feel like you're getting along fine?


REAM: I can't do much about myself now. I mean, that's the past. That will just pretty much hurt all the worst, if I concentrate on that, because I can't anything about it. But I can do something about my little brothers and sisters.

ZAHN: Joanne, as I sit hear and I listen to Carl's and John's stories, I'm absolutely amazed and absolutely saddened. Why does this go on and on and on? It perpetuates itself.

JOANNE SUDER, ATTORNEY FOR REAM & JESSOP: Well, it does. And what we're dealing with abuses that would be an abuse in any religion. We're not taking on polygamy, although we're -- that's a matter for the attorney generals of the states. It's is illegal in Utah and it's illegal in Arizona.

But the abuses of polygamy, marrying teenage girls, multiple wives, reassigning children from one wife, a wife to another man. All of her children, the next day, they wake up, they have a new last name, a new father, a new person they have to call father.

If their father's kicked out, they're never allowed to speak with him again. He's considered the devil. He's going to burn in hell. And it's tragic. It's completely tragic. These kids need so much help.

ZAHN: How hard was it for you, John, to adjust to the outside world that you were taught was wicked?

JESSOP: It's -- it was really hard. I didn't even know where to start. I'm still -- I'm still adjusting, even now. There's so many choices after you get out of there. When you are in there, they make your decisions for you.

ZAHN: You're young men who have never had a childhood. You've never been able to play. You haven't been allowed to be curious. How do you look at the future, Carl?

SUDER: It's bright. I got all sorts of options.

ZAHN: Well, you two have extraordinary attitudes. Thank you for sharing your story with us tonight.

JESSOP: Thank you.

(CROSSTALK) ZAHN: Best of luck to you.

And good luck with your broader effort out there...

SUDER: Thank you.

ZAHN: ... to help all these lost boys.


ZAHN: Meanwhile, the Utah State Attorney General's Office tells us that, unless the boys themselves press charges and actually provide evidence against their own parents, which none of them has done so far, there's nothing the attorney general can do about their heartbreaking stories.

Still to come, you may be the victim of something that is shocking and repulsive and not even know it.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt really embarrassed and violated and just sitting there frozen staring at the screen, like, kind of holding back tears.


ZAHN: Could what happen to her happen to your daughter or to you?

And, a little bit later on, technology that can actually see your clothes, is that going too far in the fight against terrorism?

Please stay with us.


ZAHN: Still to come, a story that's so creepy, it could change the way you dress, how you act, change a bunch of stuff at the mall. And a little bit later on, the pressing question, why does sweat stink? Jeanne Moos, as only Jeanne Moos can do it, knows where you can find the answer to that and even more of life's most embarrassing questions.

Right now, though, at 25 minutes past the hour, we promise not to put Erica Hill on the spot, because she's joining us from Headline News to update the hour's top stories.

ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I don't think I can tell you that much, but I do want the answer to that question, Paula.

ZAHN: You're going to have to wait, Erica. I know how you like to steal our thunder and give the answers before the end of the show.

HILL: I do.


ZAHN: But if that happens, it will be totally unacceptable.

HILL: Luckily, I don't know that answer, so I can't mess it up tonight.

ZAHN: Good.



ZAHN: Wait for the suspense.

HILL: OK, I'll stick around for it.

We're actually going to start off with a story that's coming to us just in the last few hours. Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist, we're learning, has now been released from a Washington hospital. He was taken there late this afternoon after developing a fever. The chief justice was, of course, in the hospital just last month for observation and tests. But a few days later, he was feisty enough to tell reporters he's not about to retire yet. Rehnquist is 80. He is under treatment for thyroid cancer.

Osama bin Laden's right-hand had a new warning for the today. In a video message Ayman al-Zawahri said the U.S. is stealing oil and terrorist attacks won't stop until American troops leave Arab soil. He also promised more violence in London and blamed the recent bombings there on British involvement in Iraq. Meantime, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld insisted that any connection between London and the Iraq war is, in his words, nonsense. Rumsfeld was speaking to the World Affairs Council in L.A.

At his Texas ranch, President Bush again vowed to stay the course in Iraq, despite that latest al Qaeda threat. But he also said he wants to bring the troops home as soon as possible.

And speaking of coming home, NASA says a slightly crumpled thermal blanket is no danger to the shuttle. So, there won't be another space walk. Discovery is set to return to Earth on Monday, ending the first shuttle mission in more than two-and-a-half years.

And, Paula, that is the latest at this hour. We'll hand it back over back to, as we wait for the sweat answer.

ZAHN: We have that for you. And get ready to set your alarm cock for 4:00 a.m. on Monday morning, if the schedule holds to watch the reentry.

HILL: Oh, I was going to say for the sweat?


HILL: Never mind. Sorry.

ZAHN: No, no. Sorry. Sorry. I'm ahead of you here on this one. See you in a little bit.


ZAHN: Thanks.

Coming up, a story that, as a mother, makes me absolutely furious. You simply are not going to believe what some people are doing at the mall these days.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had the bag and he was waving the bag back and forth, not touching her, but just waving it.


ZAHN: Stay with us for the shocking answer to what he was up to and what you can do about it.

And a little bit later on, how much are willing to let a stranger see if it might help catch a terrorist?


ZAHN: Of all of the things we have to worry about as parents, here is something I never imagined. It's called upskirting -- people actually armed with hidden cameras or video cameras, secretly photographing women and girls from a very low angle. Now, in most of the country it's perfectly legal. Here's Jonathan Freed.



JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For this mother and daughter, a day of prom shopping at the local mall, turned into a frightening and humiliating experience with video voyeurism, up close and very personal.

B.BRUNT: He had a bag and he was going like this. He wasn't touching her. He was just going like this and he had a camera rigged out of the bottom of it with the lens sticking up.

FREED: Rocky Brunt (ph) was 18 years old and shopping for prom shoes when a man targeted her with a hidden camera pointed right up her skirt.

(on camera): You had no clue?

ROCKY BRUNT: He was right behind me and I had no idea.

FREED (voice-over): But her mother's instincts were already tingling.

B.BRUNT: With this guy standing so close to my daughter and myself, I turned around and I gave him a look and I grabbed her was just like, "let's go somewhere else."

FREED: When the man followed the pair into a jewelry store, Bunny Brunt trusted her gut and confronted the stranger.

B.BRUNT: I looked at him and said, "what the hell do you have in that bag?" And he said, "nothing." And he turned around and he ran. I just ran through the mall screaming, "stop that man. Stop that man."

FREED (on camera): So, it was right around here, you confront him in this store and then you go charging off right here through the, right here through the hallway.

B.BRUNT: Yes. Yes. Screaming.

FREED: You're shouting. Screaming.

B.BRUNT: Screaming. Yes.

FREED (voice-over): Bunny chased the man halfway through the mall, until an onlooker tackled him and her worst fears were confirmed.

B. BRUNT: He grabbed the bag and he looked in and I said, "what is it?" And said, "it's a video camera."

FREED (voice-over): Rocky Brunt had become a victim of something called upskirting, a practice so popular among video voyeurs that simple Internet search for the term, revels more than a million Web sites.

(on camera): And when you had a chance to see that tape for the first time, what were the feelings that you were experiencing?

R. BRUNT: I felt really embarrassed and violated and I was shocked. I didn't know what to think. I was just sitting there frozen, staring at the screen, like kind of holding back tears, because I had to watch it with the police sitting in the room.

FREED (voice-over): It was a traumatic exposure to video voyeurism. A crime with victims, who like Rocky, often don't need even know their victims and an on-line audience with an apparently voracious appetite for fresh material.

Dr. Timothy Foley studies sex offenders and voyeurs. He believes that peeping can become addictive.

DR. TIMOTHY FOLEY, F&P FORENSIC ASSOCIATES: And they'll repeat it and they'll repeat it continually until it becomes a compulsive behavior. For some individuals, it will last a lifetime. For many individuals, they'll try and resist the urges, generally, unsuccessfully.

FREED: Foley also warns that a compulsion to peep can lead to more dangerous behavior.

FOLEY: Voyeurism can be a gateway for exhibitionism, rape and certainly, child molestation.

FREED: Today's Peeping Toms though, are trading in the traditional latter and binoculars for an arsenal of high-tech tools, including camera phones and pin-hole cameras, which can be carried and hidden almost anywhere.

KEITH DUNN, V.P., MAIN STRET SAFETY: That actually holds the camera inside the hat.

FREED: Take this video recorded by a shoe camera in California stores and buses. Police say, one man taped about 1,000 hours of unsuspecting women by running a wire from his shoes, up his pant leg and into a recording device in a backpack.

Another voyeur in Louisiana, installed a pin-hole camera behind a mirror in his store's dressing room. Tips on acquiring tools and the tactics to use them are traded freely on-line with suggestions ranging from how to upskirt in trains and cars, to finding the perfect mini- cam for perverse pursuits.

FOLEY: This is a game and there's probably a certain amount of one-upsmanship for a better and riskier depictions of people in a variety of different situations.

DUNN: The biggest lesson is to not stand in front and talk to anyone for a long period of time that you really don't know.

FREED: Keith Dunn is a private detective who specializes in video surveillance. He's made a business out of teaching women how to avoid becoming victims.

DUNN: This is cellar phone disguised. It's actually a pin-hole hidden camera, disguised as a cellular phone and right now, I mean, if you looked at the camera, you would never know that I'm videoing (sic) you right now.

FREED (on camera): Now, how could a voyeur make us of this?

DUNN: Easy. So, for instance, if I bend down to tie my shoe, you really aren't going to have a clue that I'm actually shooting up to your jacket or if you had a skirt on, for instance, up your skirt.

FREED: The law has been slow to keep pace with rapidly changing technology. Only about a quarter of the 50 states have laws specifically banning the practice in public places where there is usually no legal expectation of privacy and that means if video voyeur tapes you in a mall, on the street or in a park, there's a chance he's not even breaking the law. Bunny Brunt learned that the hard way.

(on camera): How did you feel about the sentence that he got?

B. BRUNT: I thought this guy would just get the book slammed on him. You know, and it didn't happen that way.

FREED (voice-over): He was Jeffrey Swisher (ph), married, a father and never faced charges stemming from video voyeurism, because Virginia state law, at the time, only bans surveillance in private places, like dressing rooms. Swisher was only convicted of disorderly conduct for running through the mall and served just 10 days in jail, despite his videotape being played in court. The Associated Press reported Swisher partially blamed Rocky for wearing quote, "a four- inch skirt and a micro-thong."

(on camera): Did you ever feel like this was in any way your fault?

R. BRUNT: No. There's girls everywhere wearing skirts and there's nothing wrong with that. It's something wrong with the people who watching you in a weird way. You just have to watch out fro them.

B. BRUNT: I mean, it's fashion. That shouldn't make some predator come after you child.

FREED: The Brunt family fought back: Working with lawmakers to toughen Virginia's Peeping-Tom laws.

(on camera): You changed the law. Beyond that, what is your message to people like him that are still out there?

B. BRUNT: They just think it's a game or you know, they're voyeuristic and they think it's not going to hurt anybody, because it's just an image. Well, it's more than an image. It's something that's going to -- it could stick with them the rest of their life. This will stick with us for a really long time.


ZAHN: And that was Jonathan Freed reporting. Late last year, President Bush signed a law making it a crime to secretly capture images of people on federal property, but that's only on federal property.

And as Jonathan just mentioned, 44 states have other laws banning voyeurism in places where there's a reasonable expectations of privacy like bathrooms and dressing rooms. But only 13 states make it illegal photograph or videotape people through clothing, no matter where the crime occurs.

Video voyeurism is a horrible thing, but what would you be willing to have video cameras focused on every place you go, or almost every step you take in public, if it might catch a terrorist.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe democracy is threatened by these cameras. They are installed secretively. They operate secretively.


ZAHN: Coming up, our series "Safe at Home" looks at explosion of security cameras, including technology that can actually see through your clothes. Who's watching you?


ZAHN: On the "Security Watch" tonight, a Maryland man is under arrest charged with supporting a terrorist group. According to court papers, Mahmoud Farouq Brent (ph) is also accused of going to a terrorist training camp in Pakistan. Since

Well, 9/11 the site of extra police at airports and subways, has become pretty routine. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot of more going on that you're never going to see -- more sophisticated, secret security steps. And you might find a lot of it unsettling. Here's Jeanne Meserve with tonight's installment of our series "Safe at Home."


JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The medium truly is the message as a New York City subway surveillance camera captures an anti-surveillance protest action, an adaptation of George Orwell's "1984."

BILL BROWN, SURVEILLANCE CAMERA PLAYERS: It was a of brazenly asking people we should stop and think what kind of society do we live? And what kind of society do we want to live?

The first one is directly above us.

MESERVE: Bill Brown also gives guided tours of New York's surveillance cameras, which he has carefully mapped.

BROWN: Well, I would say that in Manhattan alone, there are probably 15,000.

MESERVE: With high powered binoculars, Brown demonstrates how much some cameras can see and talks about what they do.

BROWN: The problem is, is that they're not just looking at people who are ringing their bell, they could also be looking at anybody and everybody who is walking up and down the street.

MESERVE: Brown believes the cameras are ineffective security tools that put our rights and our governmental system at risk.

BROWN: I believe democracy is threatened by these cameras. They are installed secretively. They operate secretively. And that secrecy is the antithesis of democracy.

MESERVE: But the London bombings have triggered calls for more cameras and smarter cameras that can help stop crimes, not just help investigations.

(on camera): Proponents says, some of these technologies make security less intrusive not more so.

(voice-over): On Madrid's train system bombed by terrorists last year, a system is deployed that marries cameras with software that can be programmed to catch people going where they shouldn't go and doing what they shouldn't do.

ALAN LIPTON, OBJECT VIDEO: People leaving bags behind maybe on a railway platform, or a railway carriage or an airport. People stealing objects, vandalizing things.

MESERVE: Another system pairs cameras with facial recognition technology. In a demonstration, my picture is added to a watch list. When I join a simulated airport ticket line, I am picked out before I can pose threat.

JOEL SHAW, CRYPTOMETRICS INC: It's proactive. It doesn't rely on postevent analysis. It's trying to anticipate. It's trying to get ahead of that.

MESERVE: Authorities are searching, of course, not just for dangerous people, but dangerous objects. Metal detectors can't find plastic explosives or some types of weapons or ammunition. But an X- ray technology called Back Scatter can see inside vehicles and under close. As you can see, this is very candid camera, though the manufacturer says the person operating the equipment, sees a less revealing picture.

ROBERT POSTLE, AMERICAN SCIENCE & ENGINEERING INC: And what you'll see, is very much an outline of the person's image with no detail of anatomy what so ever with the threat images superimposed on that outline. So in my view, the privacy issue has been completely taken care of.

MESERVE: The body is very indistinct when another system is used. Millimeter wave technology, adapted from space telescopes, can be programmed to differentiate between the human body and objects like the 357 magnum tucked in my waist band.

BRIAN ANDREWS, BRIJOT IMAGING SYSTEMS INC: We don't physically have to do search you. We don't have to touch you or do anything. We don't racial profile.

MESERVE: A Fortune 500 retailer has just bought a millimeter wave system to screen large numbers of people quickly, calling it a big boon to security.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's fast. It's quick. It's a minimal amount of manpower and staffing for it.

MESERVE: But all of these technologies have limitations. With a hat and glasses I stumped the facial recognition program. Software programmed to recognize anticipated threats and scenarios won't recognize new innovations. Neither back scatter nor millimeter wave can see through flesh to detect something hidden under an arm or in a body cavity.

POSTLE: There is no one solution that solves every problem. And therefore, the more different interdictions and interrogations you can provide, the better your security is.

MESERVE: The prospect of more surveillance and interlocking systems puts privacy experts on edge. They worry about whether information and some of those intimate images will be recorded, archived, searched and shared.

A. MICHAEL FROOMKIN, UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI LAW SCHOOL: Are those tapes ever going to leak? How secure are they going to be? Are they going to be encrypted? Who's going to have access to the tapes? Are they going to be passing them around for office parties?

MESERVE: Some of these technologies, like the back scatter van, can be used covertly.

POSTLE: If you were to see it on the street, you probably wouldn't think any differently of it than any other on the street. And many of the government agencies use it in that capacity.

MESERVE: That means our belongings can be searched, our bodies stripped, without our ever being aware.

Privacy advocates say current law is inadequate and needs to keep pace with technology.

But some Americans are perfectly willing to sacrifice some privacy for more security and convenience. To participate in a trusted traveler program and bypass long security lines, Robert Brown is having his iris scanned, his finger prints taken. And will undergo a government background check.

ROBERT BROWN, TRAVELER: I have nothing to hide, nothing to hide.

MESERVE: But there are trade offs between security and privacy.

POSTLE: The more you want to give to the privacy side of the ledger, the more you're likely to miss a threat. So, there's a balance, a very difficult balance.

MESERVE: But are we striking that balance? Or are we at risk of creating a society where we are safe but sorry?


ZAHN: It's a brave new world out there, as depicted by Jeanne Meserve. Thanks so much.

Still to come, some questions that aren't terribly difficult, but just kind of embarrassing to ask and answer.


JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Why do men have nipples?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your asking me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I guess to take up space on their chests.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's just to looks a lot nicer than having just a flat chest.


ZAHN: Well, do you know the answer? Jeanne Moos knows a place where you can find it without being embarrassed at all.


ZAHN: Now, we're moving up on about ten minutes before the hour. Those of us with us every night know what that means, "LARRY KING LIVE" is right around the corner.

Hi, Larry. Who's joining you tonight?

LARRY KING, HOST, LARRY KING LIVE: Hi, Paula. Good show. We'll begin with Justin Torres whose sister-in-law Susan who was brain dead and finally passed away after giving birth to her daughter. And Dr. Donna Tilden-Archer will be with us who is treating that young, one pound, old girl.

And then, a major discussion with four prominent Christians leaders of Evangelicals all born-agains all. They'll be with us and we'll be taking calls, as well. That's all right ahead at 9:00 Eastern, Paula.

ZAHN: We will see you then, in about nine minutes and 32 seconds and counting.

KING: Thirty-two seconds.

ZAHN: We'll be there.

KING: You're amazing, Paula.

ZAHN: You better be ready. We're going to come to you right on time tonight. So, don't like wander away or anything.

KING: You're amazing.

ZAHN: Have a good show, Larry.

Still ahead tonight, a doctor finally answers some of life's little questions like: Is it really bad to crack your knuckles? Or: Can a contact lens actually get lost inside your head? He also tackles some questions we'd rather let our own Jeanne Moos handle.

Right now, it's time for Erica Hill at "HEADLINE NEWS" to update the top stories -- Erica?

HILL: Thanks, Paula.

After one of the deadliest attacks on American troops in Iraq, the military have release new photographs, including these Honor Guard ceremonies. The lawsuit forced the release of photos showing the flag-draped remains of the fallen, but the Pentagon said the actual ceremonies are still off limits to the media. A bloody bus attack in Israeli, but this time it is the work of an Israeli soldier. Four Israeli Arabs were killed, five others hurt, before the gunman was killed. Israel's prime minister called it blood- thirsty terrorism.

In London, police say two more people in the failed bombing attempts of July 21st will be charged on Friday. The female partner of another bombing suspect and her younger sister are accused of withholding information that could have helped the investigation.

The NYPD is being taken to court over its new policy of random bag checks in the subway. The local ACLU says searches without suspicious are a violation of individual rights. The mayor says, though, it is a different world.

And the ten-day suspension of Rafael Palmeiro for steroids is a strikeout with the baseball commissioner. Bud Selig says it should be 50 games for players on their first offense, 100 games for if they fail a second steroid test.

And while we're looking at sports, we're going to turn to Larry Smith now with a look back at 25 years of some of the biggest names in sports.


LARRY SMITH, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE) Top sports characters of CNN's first 25 years. We asked the editors at "Sports Illustrated" magazine to come up with a list.

A showman at number 10: Andre Agassi brought styles and substance to the tennis court.

At number nine: Baseball great Pete Rose, gambled his ways to three strikes from his field of dreams.

A two-sport master at number eight: Bo Jackson knows football and baseball.

WALTER IOOSS, JR.: I think Bo not only had this great physical ability and this body of Zuess, but the advertising that went along with Bo, from Nike, made him even a bigger star.

SMITH: At number seven: Biker Lance Armstrong survived cancer and then pedaled to seven consecutive victories in the grueling Tour de France.

Grip it and rip it: At number six: Golfer John Daly drives long on the links despite hard knocks in life.

Stay tuned as we count down to number one.


HILL: And that's going to do it for us at "HEADLINE NEWS." Paula, back over to you in new York. ZAHN: Thanks so much, Erica. Always good to see you.

Please stay with us and get a doctor's answers to questions you'd probably never have the nerve to ask out loud. But guess who does...


JEANNE MOSS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Why do men have nipples? Does urinating on a jellyfish sting stop the burn?


ZAHN: Now come on, you wanted to know that. Didn't you?

Stay with us.


ZAHN: Now there are some questions that you can ask out loud on a primetime cable TV show and some you probably better not. But there is a place where you can find a doctor's answers to all of them and our Jeanne Moos has had fun getting them.


MOOS (voice-over): If you've ever wondered why you yawn, when someone else does; if you've ever questioned why you have an 'inie' rather than an 'outie;' if your naval gazing has wondered north of the belly button to ponder...

(on camera): Why do men have nipples?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're asking me?

MOOS (voice-over): Now, you can ask them -- the guys who wrote this: "Hundreds of Questions You'd Only Ask a Doctor After Your Third Martini."

(on camera): Does urinating on jellyfish sting stop the burn?


(on camera): Wrong.

(voice-over): She must have been watching "Friends."

MOOS: Dr. Billy Goldberg says forget urine, use vinegar. Dr. Goldberg is an emergency room physician who teamed up with a humorist to write the brook.

DR. BILLY GOLDBERG, AUTHOR: People harass my at parties. They ask me questions. I get phone calls in the middle of the night from my family. Someone's tongue has turned black from Pepto-Bismol.

MOOS: Folks ask things like: Can you lose a contact lens in the back of your head? Nope. GOLDBERG: It's a closed space. So, it can't really go anywhere.

MOOS: Is it bad to crack your knuckles? Not really, you're just popping air bubbles, though you might stretch your ligaments. But let's get down to basics...

(on camera): Why does sweat stink? Because, I mean, it's basically water.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because it goes through a lot of crap to get out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe because of something that you ate?

MOOS (voice-over): Sweat stinks when it interacts with bacteria on the surface of the skin. Maybe you've wondered if it's dangerous to hold in a sneeze.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're holding something back and you might blow your brains out of your ears or something like that.

MOOS (on camera): Well, that's true.

(voice-over: Sneezes have been clocked at up a 100 miles an hour. As for contagious yawning, they think it has something to do with subconsciously imitating one another.

GOLDBERG: I like the fact that other animals yawn. I never knew that. I found out that fish yawn. Have you ever seen a yawning fish?

MOOS: We've seen a yawning two-headed turtle, where one head yawned and the other followed suit.

It may be full of bathroom humor, but the book has gotten to number three on the Amazon best-seller list. Look out Harry Potter.

GOLDBERG: We're coming to get you.

MOOS: But why do men have nipples?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The women need something to play with as well, right?


MOOS (on camera): For piercings. That's excellent.

MOOS (voice-over): Actually, all embryos develop nipples until the male chromosome kicks in at about six weeks. Co-author Mark Leighner(ph) showed off his embryonic souvenirs.

(on camera): But wait, there's a third.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's a little thing. I don't know what that is. that's not actually a third one.

MOOS: but if you ask most guys why men have nipples.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. Maybe I'm a morphadite.

MOOS (on camera): A morphadite. OK, thank you. A morphadite.

(voice-over) Now, there's a guy who finds the nipple inexplicable.


ZAHN: I wonder why. And in case you didn't know, that was Jeanne Moos. She didn't make up anything. All of that is actually in the book. And we really had to sanitize that segment a little. So, if you check out the book you'll understand why.

That is it for all of us here tonight. We really appreciate your spending some time with us. Tomorrow, a special hour: "Safe at Home." The controversial steps taken since 9-11 to make America more secure from terrorism. Again, appreciate your joining us. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.