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Paula Zahn Now
Is Torture Ever Justifiable?; Tornadoes Tear Through Tennessee; Prison Artwork Ignites Controversy
Aired November 15, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening, everyone. Glad to have you with us.
Tonight, a heated controversy boils over. And it's an issue you never could have imagined before 9/11.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN (voice-over): Torture in a time of terror -- tonight, startling new allegations.
HUSSEIN KAMAL, IRAQI DEPUTY INTERIOR MINISTER (through translator): One or two detainees were paralyzed. And some had their skin peeled off various parts of their body.
ZAHN: And the troubling question on everyone's mind: If terrorists don't play by the rules, why should we? Is torture ever justifiable?
Bigorexia -- you won't believe the incredible extremes this man has gone through.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-eight waist, 54 chest, 18-inch arms.
ZAHN: But what happens when the perfect body isn't good enough?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No matter how big they get, they typically don't feel satisfied.
ZAHN: And a killer's art for sale right now on the Internet -- tonight, the growing outrage as a convicted murderer sells his work on the Web.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: We start tonight with the violent weather tearing through the Midwest.
Even as I speak, tornadoes have been spotted in at least three states already. And warnings and watches have been issued in Indiana, Missouri, Arkansas, Illinois, Kentucky and Tennessee. Look at that map. It says it all. And, in that state, the storms have already done considerable damage. A tornado touched down near the city of Paris, Tennessee, injuring 20 people. These are some of the first pictures fed in, in the aftermath of that storm.
The area's emergency management center also received a direct hit.
Let's catch up with Rick Sanchez, who is joining me now from Nashville.
Is there currently a warning under way there?
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is, Paula.
As a matter of fact, we have been hearing the alarm sound over the last hour or so. It sounded a couple of times. The last time was about 15 minutes ago here, which means that we are now officially under a tornado warning.
Let me set the scene for you here. I have talked to some of the officials here. And they're very concerned. You know, Nashville is a big city. And it's not every day that you get tornadic activity in a city this large. But they have experienced this in the past. As a matter of fact, if we can -- it's raining so hard, you may not be able to see it -- but you can see the outline of the Coliseum. That's where the Tennessee Titans play.
And, back in 1998 -- in April of 1998 -- Paula, part of that building was destroyed by a tornado that ripped right through the center of this town. It came, interestingly enough, from the west, in other words, in that direction, straight through here, as they fear could possibly happen again tonight.
Of course, it's all happenstance. You don't know where a tornado is going to go. But what we're hearing from some of our own folks at the Weather Center, and some of the EMS officials we have talked to here in Tennessee, is that, indeed, it looks like that line is coming from the west and that Nashville is right in the middle of it.
Let me give you some of the information that we have gotten from talking to those officials in Tennessee. Two counties in particular have been hit really hard, Paula. One of them is Henry County. But we're being told there that there are at least one building that has been destroyed. Twelve people have been injured. Not life- threatening, is the information that we are getting.
In Montgomery town -- Montgomery County, there's also been a tornado touchdown that has been reported. There, we're told, three people have been injured. And we're told that many trailer parks have been destroyed. They're going to hopefully trying to get those areas and find out exactly what is going on.
But the situation here is very difficult. Officials from the mayor's office are going to all the hospitals to make sure that they have enough hospital beds. And we're going to be following it for you.
ZAHN: So, my question is, how do you...
SANCHEZ: Paula, let me send it back over to you.
ZAHN: You don't really know if you're safe out there right now, do you?
SANCHEZ: Say that one more time, Paula.
ZAHN: Do you know if you're going to be safe out there? Or are you going to go seek some refuge here shortly?
SANCHEZ: Well, what we are doing is, we're monitoring it. And when we see a lot of lightning or thunderheads in the area, we get out of this and we go inside the truck. If we see that it clears up and it's only rain, like we are having right now, which is picking up, then we come back out.
We will try and bring you stories whenever we can. If not, you will be hearing from us by telephone.
ZAHN: Be intelligent, Rick. We need you.
SANCHEZ: Thank you, Paula.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Severe weather expert Chad Myers joins me now.
Can you remember, in all your years of this extreme weather, seeing this many twisters come down in such a short period of time?
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Not really, not in November, I mean, certainly in June. That -- that doesn't seem to be a problem.
Paula, look at this. This -- these are all the warnings for today, over 200. There you go, 32 confirmed reports of tornadoes on the ground with this storm, and, now, right into Nashville. Here's the story, a big storm moving on up to north of Hendersonville and into Nashville itself.
I am going to get right down and dirty, right into Nashville. And you are going to be able to see that Rick is actually going to get worse weather. Rick is right there under the V. It's just raining where he is now. But, certainly, he is going to get hail here in the next few minutes, as the storm moves on by.
The storm did have a rotation toward Franklin. And it has now moved up toward the north and toward northeast. Smyrna, you're under the gun for some big weather there. And, in fact, the storm did have tornado damage in Waynesboro, the same rotation with the same storm in Waynesboro. Oh, I would say that's another 75 miles to the south and southwest of there.
To east of Franklin, Kentucky, a tornado warning here, just to the southeast of Bowling Green. And we are going to get these damage reports, Paula, all night long. Look at this thing. It is snowing in Iowa and Wisconsin, and we have tornadoes all the way down to the Gulf Coast -- back to you.
ZAHN: Well, I know you got millions of people very concerned about these warnings tonight. Please come back to us as soon as you have any more....
MYERS: And it's dark, too. You know, you can't see the storms out there.
ZAHN: Well, I was wondering about Rick, how he was going to see that tornado behind the lightning he said that he saw.
MYERS: Yes.
ZAHN: So, I -- I hope people will take these warnings seriously tonight.
Chad, we will see you back in just a couple of minutes.
Now we move on to the very disturbing and provocative question, one that is sparking debate at the highest levels of our government: Should Americans be in the business of torturing our enemies? Well, in a brand new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll, 38 percent say they would be willing to allow the torture of suspected terrorists who may know the details of planned attacks against the U.S.
As you can see, 56 percent said no. There are also reports that U.S. troops have just discovered 161 other detainees of the new Iraqi government. Some of them also show signs of torture.
Iraq's deputy minister of the interior confirms the abuse of prisoners, saying he's shocked.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): As he open the door, they put me right at the beginning, at the front of the cage. And when the lions came very quickly towards us, was a very horrific noise. At that time, the two pulled me and the third closed the door.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, then, what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I lost conscious at that moment for a -- for a period of time. They woke me up by so beating me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: And there's more. The Associated Press says two former Iraqi detainees are accusing U.S. servicemen of abuse back in July of 2003.
Specifically, the AP reports, the men claimed they were thrown into a cage full of lions. The detainees told the AP and also CNN's Tom Foreman, the abuse was part of an overall pattern of torture that started when they were arrested. Many of the claims these men are making are part of a lawsuit filed on their behalf against Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and others in the military chain of command.
Well, the Pentagon tonight is saying, through 12 major investigations and 2,800 interviews of alleged prisoner abuse, lions never showed up in these allegations, not once.
At today's Pentagon briefing, Secretary Rumsfeld suggested that the accusations were part of a disinformation strategy by terror groups.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I read the same report. It seems quite farfetched. People are -- obviously, every -- everything that everyone alleges is looked into. But you have got to keep in mind that the -- the documents that were found, I believe in Manchester, train people, terrorists, to lie about their treatment. And they do it consistently. And it always works.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: And, as for the allegation that two of these men made that they were thrown into a cage full of lions, our own independent reporting shows that those lions had actually been transferred from Saddam Hussein's son's palace to another location a month before these men were arrested.
So, we are back to the question tonight of how do you treat suspected enemies who may be lying who behead hostages or even set off bombs at weddings. Just how rough do you get with a suspected terrorist?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN (voice-over): The infamous mistreatment of detainees at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison may not have been widespread, but Senator John McCain says any abuse of prisoners exacts a terrible toll on the U.S. and threatens our moral standing around the world.
That's why he's defying the Bush administration. McCain, a former prisoner of war who was tortured by the North Vietnamese, is spearheading an effort to ban the use of interrogation techniques that blur the line between what is and isn't torture.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I think it's a definitional thing. And that's why we need specific investigation techniques put into the Army field manual. Also, not only torture, but cruel and inhumane treatment, is prohibited under our amendment. Colin Powell strongly supports it. I have not talked to a single senior officer who opposes this amendment.
ZAHN: McCain's bill passed the Senate by a vote of 90 to none.
But the Bush administration is fighting him. Shortly after the September 11 attacks, Vice President Cheney declared: "It is a mean, nasty, dangerous, dirty business out there. We also have to work the dark side, if you will. We have to spend time in the shadows."
He was referring to intelligence gathering. And the Bush administration doesn't want restrictions on what happens in those shadows and is asking us to accept reassurances that whatever is happening doesn't cross the line.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We do not torture.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: The president made very clear to everyone that he did not want and would not tolerate torture.
STEPHEN L. HADLEY, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We do not torture.
ZAHN: Despite those reassurances, 74 percent of the people we have polled think the U.S. has tortured prisoners in Iraq or other countries.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Senator John McCain and many others point to a couple of other big problems with torture. They say, if we torture our prisoners, it increases the likelihood that U.S. prisoners will also be tortured by our enemies, and, perhaps, most important, torture doesn't always work.
McCain writes in "Newsweek" that, when the North Vietnamese tortured him for other members of his flight squadron, he gave them names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line.
So, the question tonight, is torture ever justifiable?
In Washington is Cliff May, the president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, who says there are situations in which torture is necessary. And here with me in New York is Michael Posner. He's executive director of Human Rights First and says that torture is never acceptable.
Welcome to both of you.
So, Cliff, you have got 90 senators voting for Senator McCain's torture amendment. What's wrong with it?
CLIFF MAY, PRESIDENT, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Yes.
Let me be very clear here. I'm not in favor of torture. And torture already illegal. And, what's more, prisoners should neither be tortured, nor abused. Now, put that aside and come to the case of a terrorist suspect, somebody who has very vital information. Take the most extreme case, somebody who knows about a bomb that is going to kill hundreds of people or knows about terrorists who are going to slit somebody's throat and take his head off.
Now, the question I ask you is not torture, but can you do things that are coercive, short of torture, or do you have to simply read that terrorist suspect his Miranda rights, tell him he has the right to remain silent and that he will get a -- he will get an attorney if he wants one?
I think, when hundreds or thousands of lives are at stake, you should be able to do things that are coercive, short of torture, to get a suspect to cooperate in order to save lives. That's all any of us are saying on this.
ZAHN: All right.
So, would this, in your judgment, be acceptable, some of the things that were approved back in December of 2002 and -- and in April of 2003, good cop/bad cop firing, rapid-fire questioning, grabbing, poking or pushing, sleep adjustment, exposing a detainee to an unpleasant smell?
MICHAEL POSNER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS FIRST: No.
ZAHN: Given -- and given the circumstances that...
POSNER: No.
ZAHN: ... Cliff just mentioned.
POSNER: I'm with Senator McCain and more than two dozen senior retired military officers, including General Shalikashvili, who say no to cruel, inhuman, degrading treatment.
We need clear rules, because it's good for America to be on the right side of this, morally right. But, also, torture doesn't work. It produces bad intelligence. It's bad for our troops, as Senator McCain has said. And it's bad for America's standing in the world.
In that case that Mr. May mentions, it's -- if an individual is about to blow up an American city and a police officer can get information and stop it, that individual, that policeman, should do it, and the system will recognize that's an extreme situation. When you change the rules, it has a coercive effect and it goes up and down the line. You create routine abuse, which is what we're now seeing.
ZAHN: Cliff, isn't what you're talking about part of -- of the obtusely written part of this amendment that would allow for exactly what Mike was just talking about, in a ticking-time-bomb situation...
MAY: I don't see how.
ZAHN: ... where a law enforcement officer would be able make that decision to protect...
MAY: I don't see how.
ZAHN: ... the lives of millions of Americans?
MAY: I don't see how.
What Michael is saying is that he would have to break the law and just hope he either wasn't prosecuted or that a jury nullified the -- the verdict on this case and said it was OK in this case. No, I don't think so at all.
Look, it used to be that interrogators were trained in -- with certain methods. And those methods were not lethal. Those methods did not maim. And how do you know that? Because the interrogators themselves had to undergo everything they were ever allowed to do to a suspect under interrogation, things like uncomfortable position, dark cells. You have -- you have named some of them.
Let me suggest something that may actually bring this...
ZAHN: Quickly here.
MAY: That -- why don't we set up a national security court to give permission. I don't want to make this decision. I don't want you to make this decision or Michael to. And I don't want a 23-year- old reservist or a cop to.
I think there should be a national security court and to which you apply and say, in this case, I think we need some coercive measures...
ZAHN: Is that something that would work, Michael?
MAY: ... less than torture to get the information we need and save lives.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: That would not work?
(CROSSTALK)
POSNER: What we have here is a situation where the government has said, take the gloves off. And soldiers up and down the line are confused about what the rules need to be.
The rules need to be clear. There needs to an absolute prohibition. And, in the extreme case, we need to deal with it as it is.
ZAHN: Quickly react to this, something Senator Pat Roberts said -- quote -- "One of the most effective tools we have in getting this information is a terrorist's fear of the unknown. Passing a law that effectively telegraphs to the entire terrorist world what they can expect if they are caught is not only counterproductive, but could be downright dangerous."
Why tie the hands of those in charge of our security?
POSNER: We have talked to lots of interrogators. They say they need clear rules. They need time. And they need, basically, to win the trust of people that they're talking to.
They will get intelligence and information we need. The way to do it is not to abuse people. You don't get good information. It's bad for our nation. It's bad for our reputation around the world.
ZAHN: The debate rages on.
Cliff May, Michael Posner, thank you for both of your perspectives tonight.
We are going to take a short break.
In a little bit, we will consider a much different argument about prisoners. Why is a convicted rapist and serial killer being allowed to profit from his artwork?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTIN KIDDER, THE FORTUNE SOCIETY: The focus now is on the art and the creativity and the humanity of the person behind bars. It's not on what they did to get there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Stay with us for an art show where the artists are sparking a lot of outrage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: I'm Allan Chernoff in Lancaster, Pennsylvania -- new details of a secret forbidden teenage love that ended in double murder -- details ahead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: And, a little bit later on, we are going to meet a man with an astonishing mental disorder. He looks like Mister America, but he thinks he's puny.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Tonight, we are just beginning to learn some of the shocking new details about the secret life and forbidden love of an 18-year-old suspected of killing the parents of his 14-year-old girlfriend and then running off with her.
David Ludwig is back in Pennsylvania tonight, after being caught near Indianapolis yesterday. He has been charged with murder and kidnapping.
Senior correspondent Allan Chernoff brings us the latest on this dramatic story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHERNOFF: Accused killer David Ludwig handcuffed and shackled, returning to Pennsylvania -- minutes later, he arrived at Lancaster County court.
(on camera): The scene inside was almost shocking, an 18-year- old who looks like an average kid dressed in an orange-and-white jumpsuit politely answering the judge, yes, sir, when told the arraignment was not a determination of guilt, then hearing the charges, two counts of homicide, one count of kidnapping, and one count of reckless endangerment. (voice-over): Judge Dan Garrett (ph) sent Ludwig to prisoner to await a pretrial hearing denying him bail.
DONALD TOTARO, LANCASTER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: The district justice established no bail would be set because this is a case that will potentially call for a maximum sentence of life in prison or death.
CHERNOFF: This is not the David Ludwig friends and neighbors know.
Twenty-year-old Tiffany Mumberger has been friends with Ludwig for eight years. They met through the local Christian homeschool association, which organizes group activities.
TIFFANY MUMBERGER, FRIEND OF DAVID LUDWIG: I was floored. I didn't -- I didn't know he could do something like that, because he's a great guy.
CHERNOFF: Ludwig, friends and neighbors say, also met Kara Borden through the homeschool and group.
MUMBERGER: We had a co-ed basketball team that they were both on and soccer team that they were both on. And I knew they were friends. I knew they hung out a lot.
CHERNOFF: And, Tiffany says, it was clear a relationship had developed.
Friends of both families say the parents, particularly Kara's, did not approve. It is not clear just how much the parents knew. In an affidavit, detectives report, a close friend of Ludwig's described it as a secret, intimate relationship of a sexual nature. Detectives add, the friend said, they also indicated flirtatious messages and exchanged inappropriate images of one another via various electronic media, to include their computer systems and cell phones.
On his personal Web page, Ludwig has no reference to his 14-year- old girlfriend. He cites his areas of expertise, computers, volleyball, getting in trouble. And there is a link to pictures of Ludwig wielding a sword. Kara Borden, on her Web page, cites her interests as Jesus, church, "my youth group."
RICHARD GARIPOLI, WARWICK TOWNSHIP POLICE CHIEF: She's a victim right now and she will stay a victim unless I hear otherwise.
CHERNOFF: Kara Borden returned separately to Pennsylvania. Police say, tonight, she is with family.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And that was Allan Chernoff reporting.
It remains to be seen whether she will be tied to the murders of her parents in any way, but, clearly, authorities filed a kidnapping charge against the young man you have just heard about. In just a minute, the growing outrage over an art show, not because of what's for sale, but because the artist is a killer and rapist and he will profit from the art sale.
And, a little bit later on, we are going to meet a man who suffers from a mysterious mental disorder. No matter how much he bulks up, he's convinced it just isn't enough.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: What would you think if I told you that, right now, a convicted murderer and rapist is selling his artwork in an un -- online auction? Well, it is happening in Massachusetts. And a lot of people are outraged that killers are making money behind bars. And it is perfectly legal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: (AUDIO GAP) has become a lightning rod, not because of its subject matter, but because of who the artist is and what he stands to gain from its sale.
The artist is convicted serial murderer Alfred Gaynor. He called his drawing "A Righteous Man's Reward." Gaynor will spend the rest of his life behind bars in the maximum security correctional center in Shirley, Massachusetts.
Gaynor was convicted of raping and strangling four women in Massachusetts during the late '90s. Gaynor's work, along with that of about 130 other convicts, went on auction today on a Web site run by The Fortune Society, a New York City-based prisoners advocacy group.
Here, collectors can place their bid on Gaynor's work. Some think there will be high interest in what has been blasted as murderabilia. Next month, the society will display all the pieces in a New York City gallery.
KIDDER: The focus now is on the art and the creativity and the humanity of the person behind bars. It's not on what they did to get there.
ZAHN: The Fortune Society has been auctioning off prisoner art for the past five years, but this is the first time there has been such a protest.
Alfred Gaynor could make as much as $250 from the sale of his drawing. Critics are offended, claiming Gaynor is benefiting from special treatment. The money isn't the issue. It's the recognition he would get for work done in prison.
WILLIAM BENNETT, PROSECUTOR: ... is serving life in prison. And the idea that his punishment would somehow include participation in an art show really upsets you and makes you angry.
ZAHN: Relatives of the four women are outraged. One mother said, it was like bringing up wounds on top of wounds and that Gaynor was being treated like a celebrity.
Forty states have Son of Sam laws, named for 1970 serial killer David Berkowitz, who tried to profit from his notoriety by writing a book. But the Massachusetts law was ruled a violation of the First Amendment in 2002. So, unless a new law is passed, Alfred Gaynor stands to cash in, despite his heinous crimes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: So, the question tonight is, should this be legal?
Joining me to debate that, Peter Koutoujian, a Massachusetts state representative who's trying to change his state's law so convicts can't profit behind bars, and JoAnne Page, CEO of The Fortune Society, which helps ex-cons start new lives and is sponsoring the auction.
Thank you both for joining us.
JoAnne, I want to start with you this evening.
We have heard from one of the mothers of the victim, one of the women who was raped and murdered by this man, that she not only is offended that he's making money off of this, but she is outraged at the reason why this art will sell in the first place, because he's trading off his reputation as a serial killer. Isn't that sick? Do you understand why she upset?
JOANNE PAGE, CEO, THE FORTUNE SOCIETY: I think that it's interesting -- well, let me back up for a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
PAGE: I do understand why she's upset. I think that...
ZAHN: Do you understand why she feels like she's reliving the murder of her daughter twice, was what she said? She's getting wounded over and over again.
PAGE: I think that there this is a dramatic difference between making money off a crime and being punished for a crime, and being recognized for a piece of art. I think there's a tremendous, tremendous difference.
At the Fortune Society, we work on rehabilitation. And we believe that a person is more than the worst thing that they ever did.
ZAHN: Representative Koutoujian, can you make that distinction, between the man who committed the crime and a man who is paying for it in prison and is now making art that some people may want to buy?
KOUTOUJIAN: No, I find, just as the mother of one of the victims, that these brutal rapes and murders really affected a family. They've been victimized once. They were revictimized through her trial and now they're being victimized once again, when they thought everything was over. He was serving four life sentences for the brutal rape and murder of four women, leaving a number of them with children without a mother and tearing it's them up once again. We're not suggesting here in Massachusetts that he should to not be able to make art, simply that he should not be able to benefit and profit from making art based upon his celebrity as a serial killer.
ZAHN: So, you would have no problem with his continuing to make this art but giving it away, not selling it?
KOUTOUJIAN: You know, I mean, listen. Everyone has the right to the first amendment, free speech. But no one has the right to profit off of the tragedy of other people's lives, and I think that's where we can draw the line.
ZAHN: So, Joanne, why is it so important for you to give him the opportunity to profit? Why not just allow his art to be enjoyed by people who want to enjoy it online and he can give it away if they love it.
PAGE: My heart goes out to the mother. And this is an individual who committed four terrible crimes and is serving the rest of his life behind bars. He's still a human being, rehabilitation still matters. Art can be part of rehabilitation, as could college, as could drug treatment. What we're doing ...
ZAHN: Whether he gets paid for it or not? You're saying he has to be paid for it? He has to be paid for it in order for it to mean something to him?
PAGE: What we're talking about is something -- what we're talking about something is where the bid starts at $15, where we've capped it at $250, where if there hadn't been the media interest it probably would have sold for $30 or $40. And if he were working in the prison making license plates and earning money that way, it would have no more to do with the crimes than selling a picture that he did with crayon on paper.
So I don't think there's any connection whatsoever between the crime and the art. But I think that in the country where we're superb at punishment, terrible at prevention and terrible at rehabilitation, it's important we have rehabilitation in prison and that when people do something good they be recognized for it.
KOUTOUJIAN: Paula, if I could address some of that ...
ZAHN: Representative Koutoujian, you were saying that you cannot separate the man from his crime and his art.
KOUTOUJIAN: The fact is, that this is a simple crayon drawing, almost child-like, of Christ. It's something that I could easily have done myself in crayon. The fact is that no one would buy it if I were to put it online, but they will buy it if a serial killer as the artist. That's the difference.
ZAHN: We have to leave it there, you two. This is something that's being widely debated in the state of Massachusetts and other places, where art is being considered to be auctioned off down the road. Peter Koutoujian, Joanne Page, thank you so much.
And in just a minute, a man who suffered from a strange mental disorder. It is known as bigorexia. He simply couldn't make his muscles big enough.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL LOMBARDI, SUFFERS FROM BIGOREXIA: Probably, four hours a day, two in the morning, two at night. Sometimes 30 minutes in the afternoon, during lunch, I would go work out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: The question is, why wasn't he ever satisfied, and was he ever able to stop?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Now, I want you to meet a man whose story is fascinating and equally baffling. His name is Michael Lombardi. He is 6'1" tall. He's close to 250 pounds of sheer muscle. Yet, no matter how much he works out, how big his muscles get, he still sees himself as very small. And he's among thousands of men with the same disorder, known as bigorexia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN (voice-over): In his mid-30's, out of shape and overweight, this man began a quest for the perfect body.
LOMBARDI: Thirty-eight waist, 54 chest, 18 inch arms, 18 inch calves.
ZAHN: As Michael Lombardi gained more and more muscle mass, he liked what he saw. He looked like the famous body builders he always admired. His quest quickly became an obsession.
LOMBARDI: I would and get to the gym at 5:00 in the morning. I'd be there right when the door opened. And like, if the guy was late, I'd be complaining to the owner of the gym. Working out all the time, probably four hours a day, two hours in the morning, two at night, sometimes 30 minutes in the afternoon during lunch I would go work out, work some type of body part. And then I was also working part-time in the gym. And then when I got home sometimes, I would run.
ZAHN: But the closer he got to his goal, the farther away it seemed.
LOMBARDI: You know, if I was waiting for somebody somewhere, I would open my trunk and do some curls or something. I had like a protein store in the trunk too. I had every kind of protein drink, bottles of water, shakes. When I get really obsessive, I got this little food calculator that tracks every little thing I put in my body.
ZAHN: Michael, like hundreds of thousands of men, suffers from a condition called muscle dysmorphia or bigorexia.
DR. KATHARINE PHILLIPS, BUTLER HOSPITAL: No matter how big they get, they typically don't feel satisfied.
ZAHN: Dr. Katharine Phillips, who wrote "The Adonis Complex," directs the body dysmorphic disorder and body image program at Butler Hospital in Rhode Island.
PHILLIPS: Bigorexia was a term that was coined originally to describe people, mostly men, who think that they're too small, inadequately muscular, some will say puny or tiny, when in reality, their body build is normal or some of them are even very muscular.
ZAHN: Within a year, Michael was more than muscular. He was huge. He started competing in strong man contests. To keep his body lean and his muscles budging, he took extreme measures.
LOMBARDI: At one point, I was taking I think it was 88 pills a day, They were all over the counter. But it's pills that are banned now, that the federal government stopped because they were put in -- they were playing with molecules inside of them that had the same effect as steroids would have on you, but they were legal.
ZAHN: Michael wouldn't tell us whether he ever used steroids to get bigger, but he did admit this.
LOMBARDI: You can't get that big unless you really invest in needles, like if you do the Mr. Olympias and stuff like that. You're not going to get that big. You can't do that normally.
ZAHN: It took four trips to the emergency room, suffering from exhaustion and dehydration, for Michael to finally realize he had a serious problem.
LOMBARDI: I went to my primary doctor and he seen that my blood levels are all wrong, so he started asking me what I've been doing and I told him. And he said, you know, you have got something going on with your body. You don't see it like other people. So, he weighed me in, and I thought I was too heavy. And I had breakfast, so I purged in the bathroom and he actually caught me.
ZAHN: No matter what people or doctors told Michael about his body, he never believed them. He still wanted to be even bigger, stronger, leaner.
LOMBARDI: Every little trick in the book, I would research. A lot of the pro body-builders you get tips from, they write them all in a book. They tell you what they do. They give you sample cycles.
ZAHN: Nothing could stop him from working out, and competing. Not even injury.
LOMBARDI: I dislocated my bicep one time, where my whole arm looked like it was -- the top half was greenish-blue, really bad, and a couple of hamstring pulls. I would still work that body part, which was dumb.
ZAHN: Until one day, the pain began to outweigh his desire for perfection.
LOMBARDI: I was like, whoa, what's happening here? You're getting so big, you can't even buy a shirt at a normal store. You always had to go to the big and tall guy store.
ZAHN: Michael says he no longer obsesses about food and tries not to overdo his workouts. He will always struggle with muscle dysmorphia, but with counseling, he's starting to accept himself the way he is.
LOMBARDI: Trying to understand what's going on, trying to adapt and adjust and understand that you're not saying what you really think you're seeing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And one more thing: You just heard Michael say he no longer obsesses about food and he says he also no longer obsesses about working out, but he says he's still a little bit heavier than he wants to be, and he's trying to lose some weight and replace it with muscle.
Coming up next, a shocking brutal crime that made national headlines. There's now a suspect, but police haven't found him yet. This is his father.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALBERTO BRAUNSTEIN, SUSPECT'S FATHER: I am pleading with him to turn himself in before something drastic or tragic happens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: But is his son listening? This is a story you're not going to want to miss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Yeah, we paid for that billboard.
Tonight, there is an urgent manhunt that continues for the suspect in a horrible, horrible crime. The details are absolutely chilling. A man is accused of impersonating a firefighter. He is suspected of holding a woman captive and sexually assaulting her for half a day. Here's Jason Carroll.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For weeks, he has been the topic of tabloid headlines. He's been featured on "America's Most Wanted," chatted about on Internet blogs. His whereabouts the subject of an intense police manhunt.
He's Peter Braunstein, former "Women's Wear Daily" writer and book editor, now wanted in connection with a bizarre and brutal sexual assault.
ALBERTO BRAUNSTEIN, SUSPECT'S FATHER: It was just devastating, devastating. Because reading about it, my first thought was, anyone who could commit such a thing must be emotionally disturbed.
CARROLL: Braunstein's father runs an art gallery in New York City. He, like many here, read details of the sadistic attack, not knowing police were looking for his son.
CARROLL (on camera): Do you believe the allegations?
BRAUNSTEIN: To a certain extent, I have to say that I don't believe everything I read in the paper.
CARROLL: Detectives believe Braunstein allegedly bought a firefighter's uniform off the Internet. They suspect he wore it this past Halloween. And once on this street in Chelsea, police allege he set two small fires as a ruse to get inside the apartment of a former colleague who works at fashion publication "W" magazine. Police say Braunstein allegedly knocked out his victim with chloroform, bound her with tape, assaulted her for 13 hours, and disappeared.
CANDACE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: This particular type of predator did a number of things in the course of the assault. The planning, the bringing props, staying for an extended period of time with the victim. Shows a great deal of confidence. He probably is of above average intelligence.
CARROLL: Braunstein says his son has always been bright and confident. He says catching him won't be easy.
BRAUNSTEIN: He is going to try and play cat-and-mouse with the police, to see -- but how far can he go?
CARROLL: Police traced Braunstein to several locations in New York City. He checked into this mid-town hotel the day after the attack. He's been spotted in Times Square, and police suspect last week, he used his metro card to gain access to this West Village subway station.
Each day he eludes police, more details about his past come to light. At one time, he was a featured writer for an explicit Web site called GettingItOn.com, writing articles like this, titled "Commitment to Raunch," and "Wicked Women to Watch."
Photographer Nat Finkelstein, who worked with Braunstein, isn't surprised about the allegations.
NAT FINKELSTEIN, PHOTOGRAPHER: He hates women. He's abusive, he's nasty. There is at least six women that I do know of, including my own wife that he's even threatened. CARROLL: Braunstein's father says his son had a temper, but he never thought him capable of hurting anyone. He doesn't expect to hear from Braunstein. They've been estranged for the past two years. Still, if, as police suspect, he's watching media reports, he has this message.
BRAUNSTEIN: I'm pleading with him to turn himself in, before something drastic or tragic happens.
CARROLL: He can only hope his son is listening.
Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: The desperate pleas of a father.
Coming up, would you consider a dancing robot one of the coolest inventions of the year? Jeanne Moos says someone does.
And then at the top of the hour, Nicole Richie is Larry King's guest.
But right now, we're going to check some of the other stories that are most likely to affect your money. Here's Erica Hill with the HEADLINE NEWS "Business break."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: And we're moving up on nine minutes before the hour. Now, it's time to check the stories more likely to effect your money. Here's Erica Hill with the "Headline News Biz Break."
ERICA HILL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Paula, financial and tech stocks have been showing some gains, but today investors bailed out and cashed in. The DOW Industrial lost 10 points in the session, while the NASDAQ was down 14. When strategists sensed the decline in oil prices, is taking the momentum out of energy stocks as well.
Meantime, home prices are still rising, but not as quickly. The National Association of Realtors said median prices over the summer were up less than four percent. The number of new homes sold since July has also fallen sharply.
The man chosen to be the next Fed chairman said today he will aim for a balance between higher interest rates to fight inflation and lower rates to create jobs. Ben Bernanke told senators at his confirmation hearing, both goals are important.
The one time energy giant Enron has now reached a $1.5 billion deal with regulators which includes a $600 million penalty for manipulating prices and supplies in California, Oregon and in Washington state.
Paula, those are your business break headlines. Sending it back over to you. ZAHN: Thanks so much Erica, appreciate it.
Coming up, is the flavor spray really a must have invention? Somebody actually thought that was really cool invention. But is it, or really unnecessary?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: So, are you looking for something new? The perfect gift for the person who has it all? I mean, something really cutting edge? Well, take a look at what Jeanne Moos has to offer tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sure, you can live without a robot that plays music. And you don't really need land rollers, skates with overgrown wheels for extra stability.
And is something called a flavor spray really a must-have item?
Still, they all made it into TIME Magazine's annual most-amazing inventions of 2005 issue.
The most amazing invention of all?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Snuppy the puppy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Snuppy the puppy.
MOOS: The Afghan puppy that South Korean researchers cloned from another Afghan's ear cell.
Forget about seeing double. Feast your eyes on Nike's MaxSight contacts. The amber makes tennis and baseballs really show up.
MOOS: They are so freaky to look at. I mean, they have to be this color, right?
MARYANNE BUECHNER, REPORTER, TIME MAGAZINE: They do have to be this color. This is how they filter out the blue light.
MOOS: And for ultra sharp under-water images, SeaLife DC500 made the list.
BJORN HARNS, VICE PRESIDENT, SEALIFE CAMERAS: Smile, fishies.
We have had a request for someone that specializes in nude photography under water.
MOOS: We kept our clothes on and later had our picture taken by a robot, thought at first, Nouveau's (ph) framing was a bit off.
Another robot, called iCat, made the list for its unrobot-like ability to make facial expressions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Happy, sad. MOOS: iCat got your tongue? No, don't run, I want to know what you think of it.
It is Toyota's concept vehicle. Is it a chair? Shaped like a leaf, powered by lithium-ion batteries. You steer by moving this ball. The eye unit has two positions.
Kind of like the dentist.
The reclining position is for faster speeds.
Do you like it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What would you do with it?
MOOS: Who knows? It's for the future.
Back in the present, tattoos etched by laser on fruit made the most inventive list. Stores get all the product information without customers having to pick off those annoying stickers.
If you want to add taste without adding calories, try flavor sprays by Chef David Burke. They come in flavors ranging from root beer to bacon to ranch dressing.
Well, it's all right.
And if you make a mess in the kitchen, there's Scuba. Scuba mops, this is the floors-eye view. Robots that mop, robots you can dance, robotically to. Nouveau even tells time. But even a robot with 15 motorized joints takes a beating.
It's enough to make a robot take up smoking.
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: We're going to have to get that robotic whip. The people at TIME Magazine say that their health, science and technology editors poured over, in their vernacular, zillions of inventions to come up with 40 most amazing inventions of the year.
Right now, at just one minute before the top of the hour, I want to get the very latest on the violent weather that is tearing through the Midwest tonight. Tornadoes have already done severe damage in Tennessee. Chad Myers, what do we need to know about?
MYERS: Thirty-five separate touchdowns already, Paula. And it's still going now. Brand-new tornado warning just off the printer there. Six miles southeast of Lebanon, by about 8:25 central time.
This includes the city of Murphysboro, also Lebanon. This storm, just to the south of Nashville, that's why this is all lit up in red here. Very close to Murphysboro. The storm, making severe weather to the north, making tornadoes down to the south. And it's going to continue possibly right on through Atlanta later on tonight, maybe two or three o'clock in the morning. So stay up to date with us.
ZAHN: We certainly will. No one expected in November. That's it for all of us tonight. Thanks so much for being with us. See you tomorrow night.
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