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Paula Zahn Now
Democratic Calls Grow Louder to Bring Troops Home From Iraq; Surviving a Lobotomy; Interview With Texas Congresswoman Kay Granger
Aired November 17, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening, everybody. Glad you could be with us tonight.
We start off with a blistering new attack in the war of words over the war in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN (voice-over): Fighting words, as the calls to bring the troops home get louder.
REP. JOHN MURTHA (D), PENNSYLVANIA: This is a flawed policy wrapped in an illusion.
ZAHN: The latest in the heated debate over Iraq.
REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R), ARIZONA: The American people will not stand for surrender.
ZAHN: A president under pressure.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When Democrats say that I deliberately misled the Congress and -- and the people, that's irresponsible.
ZAHN: And politics get even more personal.
Surviving a lobotomy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to understand why this was done to me.
ZAHN: You have probably heard of lobotomy, but do you really know what it is? Tonight, meet a man who survived one.
And lives on the line -- amazing 911 tapes, as a couple faces a life-threatening danger.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But don't take too long.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: I need to know where...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know what's wrong with me.
(END AUDIO CLIP) ZAHN: How one operator's determination led to a dramatic rescue.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And I want to start with two very provocative questions tonight: Should U.S. troops get out of Iraq? Should they even be there in the first place?
Well, within the past few minutes, we have again seen, the harder the Bush administration tries to avoid that debate, the louder it gets.
Here is what is going on at this hour. This morning, one of the biggest hawks in the Democratic Party said U.S. troops need to get out now, because they have become targets, the Iraqis don't want us, and the military can't win. That's coming from Pennsylvania Congressman John Murtha. He's a widely respected expert in military affairs and a decorated veteran who voted for the war.
But now he says the president has a flawed policy wrapped in illusion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURTHA: We are charged, Congress is charged, with sending our sons and daughters into battle. And it's our responsibility, our obligation, to speak out for them. That's why I'm speaking out.
Our military has done everything that has been asked of them. The U.S. can not accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily. It's time to bring the troops home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: But, just minutes ago, White House spokesman Scott McClellan issued a blistering attack on Congressman Murtha.
White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president in South Korea, and joins us live with more -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Paula.
Well, it is now Friday morning across the international dateline here in South Korea.
And we all woke up to see the congressman's statements. And initial conversations with senior officials at the White House and traveling with the president were somewhat muted, saying that they respectfully disagree with Congressman Murtha. But now there is an official statement that is anything but muted.
And I will read part of it to you. It says: "Congressman Murtha is a respected veteran and politician who has a record of supporting a strong America. So, it is baffling that he is endorsing the policy positions of Michael Moore and the extreme liberal wing of the Democratic Party." And it goes on to say: "We remain baffled. Nowhere does he explain how retreating from Iraq makes America safer."
So, clearly, they understand at the White House that John Murtha is, as you mentioned, no liberal. He is somebody who is considered hawkish on national security issues, despite the fact that he's a Democrat, and somebody who is very well respected when it comes to these issues.
We have seen the gloves off. We have seen the campaign with regard to hitting back on the Democrats on pre-war intelligence, Paula. This is the first time we have really seen it to this level when it comes to the future policy of Iraq -- Paula.
ZAHN: Dana Bash, thanks so much for the update.
So, as you can see, this debate over the Iraq war has moved way beyond Washington. And our latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll shows only a 35 percent approval rating for the way President Bush is handling the war in Iraq. Sixty-three percent disapprove. And look at this: Only 38 percent now think the situation in Iraq was worth going to war over. Now you can see it. And 60 percent say it wasn't.
And as we hopefully keep on seeing here, the Bush administration, through numbers, is having to defend itself about whether it was truthful in making its case for the Iraq war. Vice President Cheney calls the Democrats irresponsible for even raising the question, a position echoed today by the president himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: It's irresponsible to use politics. This is serious business, making -- winning this war. But it's irresponsible to do what they have done. So, I agree with the vice president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Well, it seems pretty obvious that we may be reaching a pivotal point in the Bush presidency.
So, I want to bring in our chief national correspondent, John King, to chat some things over here.
Always good to see you, John.
So, walk us through the land mines both the Democrats and the Republicans are risking in this escalating war of words here.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly, the Democrats are risking that some people will say, in asking for a specific timeline -- and we should note that Congressman Murtha is relatively alone right now in saying he wants a specific date, six months, get the troops out -- but, in doing that, many in the military will say, that's reckless; that tells the enemy exactly when you are pulling out; they will just lay back and wait. So, they risk -- if more Democrats endorse that specific timetable, they do risk being called irresponsible. That is certainly the White House view tonight. You just heard it from Dana Bash.
The risk for the president is that more and more Democrats are coming forward. And even Republicans in the Senate endorsed a call for an exit strategy. So, the American people increasingly are going to say: Mr. President, the war is unpopular. We don't like your policy. When are you going to change things?
So, the president -- it is incumbent now on the president to not just say, the Democrats are wrong. He needs to come up with an exit strategy.
ZAHN: So, what is on the line here? Just that -- the very numbers and the sinking numbers related to the president's credibility, is this why the offensive is so strong?
KING: It certainly is. The Bush presidency is on the line here.
The president has an unpopular war. And part of having an unpopular war is that he's gone from 60 percent, in terms of the number, the percentage of the American people who think he is honest and trustworthy, to about one-third of the American people thinking that.
Peter Hart, the prominent Democratic pollster, a -- very fair- minded for a Democratic pollster. He's a partisan, of course. But what he said today is, that's what happened to LBJ in Vietnam. This president cannot afford that, if he wants to get back to governing beyond Iraq over the next three years.
ZAHN: Where do you think this debate will go from here?
KING: Well, the president has the benefit of the calendar, if you will. The debate is very intense right now.
But there are two things that could work -- could work -- in the president's favor. He's not had much luck lately. But they could. One is, we're about to enter the Thanksgiving period and then into the holidays. So, the Congress will be on recess for a good period of time over the next month or so.
Then there are the December elections in Iraq. What the White House is hoping for, Paula, is some military progress against the insurgency between now and the elections. Then you have the elections. Then the president would like to be able to pivot and say that he will start bringing some troops home, but on his terms. The president hopes the elections allow him to redefine the debate.
ZAHN: John King, thanks so much.
So, whether the Bush administration wants a debate about why we got into the Iraq war in the first place and whether it's time to get out, that debate is already under way. And joining me from Capitol Hill are Texas Representative Kay Granger. She's a member of the Republican leadership. And, shortly, I hope to be joined by New York Democratic representative Charlie Rangel, who, keeping my fingers crossed, might be with us in a minute or two.
Representative, thank you so much for being with us.
I -- I want you to respond specifically to some of the things Congressman Murtha had to say earlier today -- quote -- "that American troops have done all they can in Iraq and that it's time to bring the troops home."
Your reaction.
REP. KAY GRANGER (R), TEXAS: It's startling.
To say the troops have done all they can do is so defeatist, and it's just not the situation at all. In fact, I got -- I read an e- mail just tonight from a -- a soldier who is on his second tour -- tour there, who said: It's better than I ever thought it would be. He said; The Iraqi people are -- really supportive of our coalition.
Things are very much better. All you have it see is two elections, the second one even safer than the first one, the second one, a higher voting percentage than we even had when we voted for president.
And now, before we're having, literally, an election next month, to say we're going to pull our troops out, oh, what a terrible thing to do, to say for our troops, first of all, that are serving there, and also for the Iraqi people, as they move toward security and a free and open election.
ZAHN: Well, you make an interesting -- an interesting point about moving towards security, because a number of Democrats would suggest that, in fact, this -- this insurgency movement was sparked by the very act of going to war; in essence, what you have done now is to place hundreds -- more than 100,000 of our troops in harm's way as just sitting ducks.
GRANGER: We just celebrated Veterans Day, and we talk about the greatest generation.
Remember, they fought a fight -- a war there, so they wouldn't fight this war right here. And that's exactly what's going on. It's like Iraq has become a magnet for terrorists. It has been a very dangerous place. But, again, it is our hope, and our hope and our optimism and what we have to do is stay the course, leave it, then, a safer, secure, freer country. And we're doing that with 200,000 Iraqis that have been trained to be the forces that keep it safe. That's what we have done there.
ZAHN: All right. But let me ask you this.
When you say stay the course, a lot of Democrats would find that offensive. Senator John Kerry said, earlier this evening, basically said, if you're going to call the Democrats irresponsible for raising these questions, how do you defend the fact that many of these soldiers are fighting in Iraq without even the proper body armor?
GRANGER: Oh, and one of the things I -- when you mentioned that, this e-mail I got today said -- and, on my second tour, he said: We have the armored cars. We have the security we need.
So, I will say we were slower than we should have been in making sure that they had had everything they want to, but that is switching the subjects. What we're talking about, stay the course, is staying there, winning, being able to leave that country with their own security, taking care of their own government, and then coming home. Again, it's fighting the war there, not here.
ZAHN: Representative Granger, we appreciate your joining us.
And we wished your sparring partner could have been there, Representative Rangel. But we hope to get to him a little bit later on in this hour.
Again, thank you for your time.
We're going to move on now.
There has been a verdict in a trial that we have been watching very closely from here. It's a case you might remember where a kidnapping was caught by a surveillance camera. And it's the last time this little girl was ever seen alive. Find out what the jury decided.
Also:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Keith Oppenheim in Fort Madison, Iowa.
One down, one to go -- an escapee from the Iowa State Penitentiary, oddly enough, is caught near another prison in Illinois. But the guy he left with is still on the loose -- details coming up when PAULA ZAHN NOW continues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: And then, a little bit later on, something you never see on television -- we're going to actually hear from the survivor of a medical procedure that is so controversial, so brutal, it's now been banned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Tonight, a nationwide manhunt is under way for an escapee from a maximum security prison in Iowa. Convicted kidnapper Robert Legendre and convicted murderer Martin Moon slipped out three days ago. Earlier today, Moon was captured in Illinois. But the search continues for his fellow escapee.
Here's Keith Oppenheim.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OPPENHEIM (voice-over): Convicted killer Martin Shane Moon escaped one prison, only to be captured near another. On Monday afternoon, Moon and another inmate, Robert Legendre, scaled a wall at the Iowa State Penitentiary, then stole a car. By this morning, Moon was 250 miles away in Chester, Illinois. Police say he was sleeping in another stolen vehicle that, for reasons still not explained, was parked near an Illinois penitentiary.
Prison security guards notified local police.
GENE MEYER, IOWA DIVISION OF CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION: They aroused Mr. Moon, who tried to flee in that vehicle. He only drove a short distance, and he hit a fence. He jumped from the vehicle and fled. And he was captured by a canine dog.
OPPENHEIM: Illinois authorities said Moon was unarmed, and they were convinced he was on the run alone.
FRED FREDERKING, RANDOLPH COUNTY, ILLINOIS, SHERIFF: We really feel that this guy was on foot for some time in Iowa, until he got up into the northern part of Illinois, up around Ferris, Illinois, where he actually stole this car himself, and was by himself at the time.
OPPENHEIM: That meant this nationwide hunt for two convicts was only half-over. Investigators said they still didn't know the whereabouts of Legendre, the other escapee, who was in jail for attempted murder and kidnapping. They will be asking Martin Shane Moon a lot of questions.
MEYER: Just about all the details of the escape and anything he can tell us about where Legendre may go.
OPPENHEIM: Iowa prison officials say, on Monday, Legendre and Moon used upholstery webbing from the prison furniture shop to climb a wall, a wall near a guard tower that was unmanned. People in Fort Madison got worried.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt pretty safe, up until this happened. And, you know, you got to start locking your doors and being a little more careful.
OPPENHEIM: There hadn't been an escape from the penitentiary in more than 25 years. Residents started locking up. So did schools. The news that one of the escaped prisoners was back in custody got a mixed reaction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Halfway at ease -- but there's still one out there yet. It only takes one to do damage. And it could happen any time. We don't know.
OPPENHEIM: Investigators say, even though Moon was found in the region, Legendre very well may have gone farther. And they are asking help from the public to find him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
OPPENHEIM: Police in Illinois tell us that, when Martin Shane Moon was caught this morning, he ran into the woods from his car. Then they sent a canine unit after him, and he actually ran up a tree. He was brought into custody. He waived extradition, Paula. And he's going to be brought back to the place that he left, right here to the Iowa State Penitentiary in Fort Madison -- back to you.
ZAHN: Last place he wanted to see.
Keith Oppenheim, thanks so much.
Now, for several days, we have been following the trial of a Florida pan man accused of kidnapping, raping and murdering an 11- year-old girl. Coming up, the jury's verdict and a mother's outrage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN SCHORPEN, MOTHER OF CARLIE BRUCIA: He's going to get more years on appeals than my daughter had in life. And I have got a problem with that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Coming up next, a case that's renewed a national debate -- is there ever a time repeat offenders should be turned loose?
Also, today's shocking revelation about the Pennsylvania teenager accused of killing his girlfriend's parents and running off with her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Chris Huntington in Waltham, Massachusetts, at the scene of a dramatic 911 rescue earlier this week -- a couple saved from a killer that could sneak up on any of us.
I will have the full story coming up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Tonight, as we join you, a 39-year-old father of three daughters faces a possible death sentence for the rape and murder of an 11-year-old girl. You might remember the case, little Carlie Brucia's kidnapping. It was actually caught on chilling surveillance video almost two years ago. And, today, a jury in Florida convicted Joseph Smith, the man seen on that videotape.
Here's Susan Candiotti.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCHORPEN: You will get yours.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Carlie Brucia's mother let loose at a police van taking convicted killer Joseph Smith back to jail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant is guilty of murder in the first degree, as charged.
CANDIOTTI: After deliberating less than five hours, a jury found Smith guilty of kidnapping, raping and strangling 11-year-old Carlie Brucia nearly two years ago. Smith showed no emotion.
The victim's mother did, sobbing quietly. Carlie's father smiled and nodded as the verdict was read. The case is best known from a chilling and apparently damning car wash surveillance tape that showed Smith approaching, then mysteriously convincing his unknowing victim to go with him as she walked home from a sleepover -- Carlie's body found four days later, half-naked, in a field behind a church.
The victim's mother:
SCHORPEN: I have lost one of the most precious things to me in my life, because of an animal, a disgusting, perverted animal.
CANDIOTTI: Prosecutors deluged jurors with powerful forensic evidence, a strand of Carlie's hair found in Smith's getaway car, semen that matched Smith's DNA found on the girl's shirt, and testimony from the defendant's own brother, who got Smith to confess.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he say anything about how it ended?
JOHN SMITH, BROTHER OF JOSEPH SMITH: Well, I asked. He wasn't sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you mean. What did you ask? And try to speak up, again. Remember, you have got to try to articulate.
SMITH: I asked if she was dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what did he say?
SMITH: He said: "I don't know. She could be."
CANDIOTTI: The defendant did not take the stand. And, in a stunning move, his lawyer skipped a closing argument.
JUDGE ANDREW D. OWENS JR., 12TH CIRCUIT COURT OF FLORIDA: I'm sure that you are aware of what just occurred, but that you had an opportunity to fully discuss that with your attorney, Mr. Tebrugge, during the recess, and that you were in concurrence with Mr. Tebrugge waiving any final argument.
JOSEPH SMITH, DEFENDANT: Yes, I did, Your Honor.
ADAM TEBRUGGE, ATTORNEY FOR JOSEPH SMITH: The jury found that the evidence passed the test. I respect and accept the verdict of the jury. I will now be preparing to present further evidence on November the 28th and will be arguing that a sentence of life in prison without possibility of parole...
CANDIOTTI: Smith, a father of three daughters himself, has been in and out of jail for more than a decade for a string of mostly drug arrests, but no sex crimes.
Next, the same jury will decide whether Smith should be put to death.
Susan Candiotti, CNN, Miami.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And the sentencing phase of the case is set to begin November 28. That's when Carlie Brucia's parents will have a chance to talk about their loss and Joseph Smith and his family will have an opportunity to plead for his life.
Tonight, some court documents are revealing more about the life of the suspect in another disturbing crime. Police in Pennsylvania say they have found 54 guns in the home of the 18-year-old charged with murdering his girlfriend's parents and then running off with the daughter, the 14-year-old.
Senior correspondent Allan Chernoff joins me now with more details.
Hi, Allan.
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Paula.
And, today, we know exactly how easy it was for David Ludwig to get a gun. Here we have filed in court the results of the police survey of the entire Ludwig home. They took, they seized 54 guns, as you said. And on this list are included three assault rifles, the type given out to the military, and just dozens and dozens of shotguns, .22-caliber, .38-caliber, .40-caliber, .45-caliber. The list goes on and on, plenty of arms as well.
Now, the family was not into arms dealing, but they were very much into hunting. Now, David Ludwig is, right now, in Lancaster County Prison. He is facing charges of homicide, double homicide, here, as well as kidnapping, charged with murdering the parents of his 14-year-old girlfriend, Kara Borden.
Tonight, the family did put out a statement, the Ludwig family -- quote -- "We are so truly sorry any of this has occurred and are grateful for the great care being given to the Borden family" -- Paula, an absolutely tragic tale here.
ZAHN: Awful.
Allan Chernoff, thank you.
We are going to have to move on here. We have come across a very dramatic 911 call: on one end, a couple suffering from potentially fatal carbon monoxide poisoning, and, on the other end, a very cool emergency operator. You are going to hear it coming up.
And then, a little bit later on, you have heard about it. You have talked about it, probably. The word is part of our everyday language. But what's it really like to have a lobotomy?
Plus, this story:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Ted Rowlands in Northern California.
And this is Susan Polk. Her lawyer, Daniel Horowitz, will represent her in her upcoming trial, despite the fact that his wife was murdered.
Coming up, we will talk about the potential impact and hear from Susan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: I want to come back now to the growing war of words over the war in Iraq. Today, a highly respected Democratic Congressman, John Murtha of Pennsylvania, a decorated Vietnam veteran, called for the U.S. to leave Iraq in six months.
And earlier tonight, I spoke with a member of the Republican leadership, Representative Kay Granger of Texas, who told me it would be irresponsible to leave now. But because of technical problems, Democrat Charles Rangel couldn't join me earlier, but he's with me now and I'm going to give him a chance to respond to some of what his colleague had to say. Welcome to our show.
Representative Granger says that it is irresponsible to leave now. She says that progress is being made, that two successful elections have been held so far and that some 200,000 Iraqi troops have been trained to defend their country.
REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: Well, I think that Jack Murtha -- there's no better friend of the military than Jack. His views should be respected because the president's veracity has fallen so that 60 percent of the people have no trust in him and the fact that Americans are really way ahead of the Congress in showing their disillusions with the war.
They are now attacking everyone saying they are unpatriotic and that's not the American way.
ZAHN: But what about the specific things that Congresswoman Granger had to say? Do you not acknowledge that some progress is being made in Iraq today? RANGEL: We should never have been in Iraq in the first place. We've lost over 2,050 people. The president says we've got to stay there until we win, and Jack Murtha and many people have said that. Our president is there ...
ZAHN: So you don't see anything positive that has been accomplished?
RANGEL: You know, we didn't go there to get a constitutional government. We went there to knock out Saddam Hussein because it was weapons of mass destruction, al Qaeda was supposed to be involved there, 9/11, and none of these things made any sense.
Now all of a sudden they said we're making progress. For what? we got a whole country that's in complete disarray, and they are fighting for a constitution. That's good. But is it worth the loss of 2,000 American lives and tens of thousands of Iraqis. That's not our missions and I don't think Americans accept that.
ZAHN: Just within the last hour, the White House released a statement that came to us by way of South Korea. And I'd like you to respond to this. I'm going to read.
I don't know that you'll see it up on the screen or not, but it's quote "so it's baffling" -- and they are talking about Congressman Murtha -- "that he is endorsing the policy positions of Michael Moore and the extreme liberal wing of the Democratic Party. Even an historic election in Iraq is not the time to surrender to the terrorists. After seeing his statement, we remain baffled. Nowhere does he explain how retreating from Iraq makes America safer." How is America any safer?
RANGEL: Who issued that statement? Who issued that statement?
ZAHN: This came from the office of the press secretary.
RANGEL: Well, the press secretary, I don't know whether he's ever served in the military. But those of us that have, especially in combat, have a compassionate, sympathetic concern about the lives of those people that are dying each and every day.
So it just seems to me that they've decided to attack Senator Kerry, Bill Clinton, Senator Clinton, I assume Senator Hagel who is a combat veteran, the entire Senate, Republicans and Democrats that are saying this administration has to be held accountable for how this war is being fought.
And so I really think that for the president on Veterans Day, to turn it into the political attack on his opponents, it was insulting to me and to veterans throughout this country. I don't think we should politicize this war. We should get out.
ZAHN: Well, we have got to leave it there. A thought echoed by Congressman Murtha earlier today. Congressman Murtha, thank you for your patience. I appreciate you sticking around to continue this conversation. And we are going to switch gears now. The story I'm about to show you may startle you. It's about a couple caught in the grip of carbon monoxide poisoning, a deadly, invisible danger that kills within minutes. In a few minutes, we're going to show you how to avoid what happened to them.
But first, Chris Huntington has the story of a dramatic call for help and one very determined 911 operator, as you'll see.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Carol Condon handles emergency calls for the police and fire departments in the Boston suburb of Waltham, Massachusetts. A little after 2:30 in the morning this past Tuesday, she received a 911 call unlike any she's ever heard in her 10 years on the job.
CAROL CONDON, 911 DISPATCHER: OK, ma'am, what's the problem?
HELEN ROY, 911 CALLER: I don't even talk. I can't talk. My husband's very -- we hurt so bad.
CONDON: OK, you have to give me your address to help you. Where are you? I know you're sick. You need some help? Are you in Waltham? Where are you?
H. ROY: Inside what shop?
CONDON: You're inside what shop?
There was something seriously wrong with the female. She was injured somehow. But I didn't know how or where.
HUNTINGTON (on camera): Did you speculate on what you thought might be happening?
CONDON: As soon as I could hear a man in the background, I thought that maybe there was a male in the building who had harmed her in some way.
HUNTINGTON: So you are thinking potentially a domestic dispute or some sort of assault?
CONDON: Correct.
HUNTINGTON (voice-over): The call was from Helen Roy. She and her husband Bob were in trouble but neither were capable of explaining what was wrong, where they were located or even who they were.
CONDON: You're inside a building?
H. ROY: Yes.
CONDON: OK. Did you just -- what does the building look like? Is it an office building? Tell me what's your first name.
H. ROY: July 7th.
CONDON: You said your birthday. What is your name?
HUNTINGTON: To make matters worse, the Roys were using a cell phone, virtually impossible to trace to an exact location. So rescuers rushed to the nearest cell phone tower, while Condon strung out the conversation with the Roys.
CONDON: I finally get Bob on the phone. And I'm not sure what Bob's done or what's going on with Bob. And I find it curious as to why they'd be in a shop at 2:30 in the morning.
HUNTINGTON (on camera): This is Bob Roy's welding business. As you can see, it's a garage-style shop in an industrial complex. The only ventilation into the shop is through the garage door and the front door and they were sealed up tight when he was working late on Monday evening.
Inside, he was using a propane-powered forklift that was spewing out exhaust laced with carbon monoxide. He called his wife, Helen, to say that he was not feel willing. She came over. The two of them passed out, they believe, around 9:00 p.m. Miraculously, woke up again around 2:30 to make the 911 call.
(voice-over): It was four minutes into that call before Bob could finally give Condon an exact address.
CONDON: Sir, where are you?
BOB ROY, 911 CALLER: Who is it?
CONDON: Where are you?
B. ROY: I need a blanket.
CONDON: Sir, tell me where you are.
B. ROY: Hello.
CONDON: Hi. Where are you?
B. ROY: One -- who's this?
CONDON: It's Carol. Where are you?
B. ROY: I'm at 1-0-1 Clematis Avenue.
CONDON: You're at 1-0-1 Clematis Ave?
B. ROY: Yes.
CONDON: We said, thank God.
HUNTINGTON (on camera): That's the crucial bit of communication.
CONDON: Correct. HUNTINGTON (voice-over): Within minutes, Bob and Helen Roy were headed for the hospital where they were treated for carbon monoxide poisoning. Helen was released yesterday, Bob, not until just a few hours ago.
B. ROY: It's like being drunk. You're not really sure what you're doing, what decision you are making.
HUNTINGTON: But it was Condon's cool decision making that made the difference.
CONDON: When they were both being transported into Mass General, then I was almost overcome because I knew how close they had come to death. So when you get a call like this and it ends up that everyone walked away OK, it's a really good feeling.
HUNTINGTON: Chris Huntington, CNN, Waltham, Massachusetts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
And for more on the dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning, let's turn to medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen. So, Elizabeth, what happens to your body when you are poisoned by carbon monoxide?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Paula, it's a very specific reaction that happens. What happens is that the carbon monoxide gets into your bloodstream and it literally will push out the oxygen.
It will push all that oxygen out of the way so your cells aren't getting enough oxygen, which can lead to unconsciousness and ultimately can lead to death. Of course, thank goodness that's not what happened in this case.
ZAHN: No, but what we saw so vividly because this gas is odorless and you can't taste it, how do you know that you are getting poisoned by it?
COHEN: You know what? It's very difficult. Because of course, as soon as it comes on you there's really -- you don't really know what's happening. But some of the early signs are dizziness, headaches, bright red lips -- which you might notice in somebody else, of course, not necessarily in yourself -- and waxy, pale skin. So those are some of the early signs of carbon monoxide poisoning.
ZAHN: I understand you've brought some detectors along to educate us as to what we need to have in our homes.
COHEN: That's right. That's the simplest and the first thing you can do to detect carbon monoxide. This one costs about $30. Experts recommend, get a bunch of them and put them in different areas of your house.
That's going to help you know if there's carbon monoxide. It sort of works like a fire detector. It will beep and it will go off. The other thing you can do is have your car checked. Is the exhaust going back into your car? Which is going to be a serious problem if you are in your car, you won't know what's happening. Also, have someone come inspect the gas appliances in your house to make sure they're not leaking carbon monoxide. Also, inspect fireplace flues, so that they're also not leaking carbon monoxide from your fireplace.
ZAHN: Elizabeth Cohen, thanks for the expert advice. Appreciate it.
And in just a minute, a jailhouse interview with a woman who is accused of murdering her husband. Her case was just about to start. But, in a very bizarre twist, her attorney's wife became the victim of a bizarre, brutal killing.
SUSAN POLK, MURDER DEFENDANT: I hope that he is being honest with me when he says that he's prepared to go forward with my case.
ZAHN: She's putting her life in his hands. That's next.
And a story you're not going to see anywhere else. You're going to meet a man who actually survived a lobotomy. Why was it done in the first place? A procedure now banned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: A month after the murder of his wife, high-profile defense lawyer and TV legal analyst Daniel Horowitz was back in court today.
He appeared at a hearing in the big case he was working on at the time of his wife's death. It is a story we've been following pretty closely here. A mother of three accused of killing her husband. A man who was her psychologist when she was just 15 years old. Here's Ted Rowlands.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Daniel Horowitz had nothing to say leaving the courthouse, but he told the judge that despite the recent murder of his wife, he is still representing Susan Polk. From jail, Susan Polk says if Daniel Horowitz is ready, she's happy to have him.
POLK: I hope that he is being honest with me when he says that he's prepared to go forward with my case.
ROWLANDS: Daniel Horowitz was two weeks into trial defending Susan Polk when he came home and found his wife, Pamela Vitale, stabbed and bludgeoned to death.
Scott Dyleski, a 17-year-old neighbor, is accused of killing Vitale and, according to the coroner's report, carving a cross-like symbol into her back. Dyleski has pleaded not guilty. Suddenly, Daniel Horowitz went from high-profile lawyer to crime victim.
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's a little personal.
POLK: The thing that I'm concerned about, of course, is the impact it has on Mr. Horowitz.
ROWLANDS: Since he was unable to continue as Susan Polk's lawyer, the judge declared a mistrial. Susan Polk is accused of the 2002 murder of her husband Felix, a prominent San Francisco Bay Area psychologist.
Prosecutes say she attacked her husband while he was reading a book in this pool-side guest house where he was staying because she had filed for divorce.
Prosecutors say Susan stabbed Felix more than 20 times and instead of calling police, left him until the next night and allowed her then 15-year-old son Gabriel to find the body.
POLK: I didn't do it. I am not guilty. But I've been incarcerated for two and a half years.
ROWLANDS: Susan says while she did stab her husband, it was in self-defense. Since her arrest, she's gone through three lawyers and was planning to represent herself when Horowitz, a high-profile attorney and television legal analyst, took her case in August, just weeks before her trial.
POLK: It was a gift to me that they came forward when they did. And agreed to represent me and put together in such a short period of time, such a really great defense.
ROWLANDS: Polk says she was the victim of physical and mental abuse. She was 15 years old and a patient of then 42-year-old Felix Polk, when they started their relationship.
According to Susan, the abuse continued during what would be a 20-year marriage. The couple had three boys. Two of them, Adam and Gabriel, are expected to testify against their mother. Eli, the middle son, is supporting his mother.
ELI POLK, SON: I know it was self-defense because I know my dad. I knew who he was and I know my mom and there's no way. There's just no way.
POLK: I have a good defense, and we're going to go forward. And I'm going to hope for the best.
ROWLANDS: Daniel Horowitz will be defending Susan Polk in the same courthouse where Dyleski, his wife's alleged murderer makes his appearances.
Horowitz will also have to attack the same district attorney's office in the Polk case that's prosecutes Dyleski. Horowitz's partner, Ivan Golde, says none of it should be a problem.
IVAN GOLDE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He's doing fine, he's a fighter. He'll be fine. We're together. We're going to do a good job here. We're going to win this case, you watch.
Ted Rowlands, CNN, Martinez, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Meanwhile, a judge has set a tentative trial date for January 31st, but that could change. Susan Polk wants the trial to start as soon as next month.
Please stay with us for our next story. You're going to hear from some people who survived a medical procedure that is now considered so barbaric, it's banned.
HOWARD DULLY, LOBOTOMY PATIENT: Life has been very traumatic because of the lobotomy. It's not what you see. Physically I dress like a normal person and look normal. It's how you live.
ZAHN: Next, the reality of a lobotomy. And why they're never done anymore.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: I want to warn you that our next story has some disturbing images in it. You're going to meet a man who had a lobotomy some 40 years ago. Now, people toss that around and make jokes about it, and you may think of a lobotomy as a house of horrors kind of treatment for mental disorders that the medical establishment shunned long ago. But over decades, tens of thousands of people had the surgery to cut pathways in part of their brains, and it was hoped to cure mental disorders like schizophrenia.
So what is it like to live your life after a lobotomy? Watch this report from senior medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He was a 12-year-old boy who says he didn't get along with his stepmother. She didn't like his sullen moods, he says. Didn't like the fact he was reluctant to bathe. So she took him to a special doctor.
HOWARD DULLY, LOBOTOMY PATIENT: I was 12 years old. It was in 1961, and I remember going to the hospital and being told that I was going to the hospital for tests.
GUPTA: But Howard Dully was not going to the hospital for tests. He was going for an operation.
H. DULLY: My file has everything. A photo of me with the ice picks in my eyes. I want to understand why this was done to me.
GUPTA: What was done to Howard Dully was a lobotomy.
His search for answers has been made into an NPR documentary called "My Lobotomy." Howard Dully's surgeon was the man who introduced lobotomies to America as a way to treat mental illness -- Dr. Walter J. Freeman.
Dr. Freeman was so proud of his work, so convinced of the benefits of lobotomies, he distributed instructional films, which he narrated in 1949.
WALTER J. FREEMAN: This patient came to the hospital this morning after breakfast, and if all goes well, she'll leave tomorrow afternoon.
GUPTA: A year later, another Freeman film presented a young catatonic before lobotomy.
FREEMAN: This is a boy of 19, a dreamy, sensitive individual, interested particularly in the current musical idiom of be-bop. Transorbital lobotomy was performed on August 1st by Dr. Jonathan M. Williams. Within a few days, the patient resumed playing the saxophone. Hallucinations subsided.
GUPTA: Considered barbaric by today's standards, the history of lobotomies is not black and white.
Jack El-Hai is the author of "The Lobotomist," a biography of Dr. Freeman.
JACK EL-HAI, AUTHOR, "THE LOBOTOMIST": In the mid-1930s, when Freeman began performing lobotomies were a time of great desperation in the treatment of psychiatric illnesses.
GUPTA: At that time, mental institutions, or insane asylums as they were called back then, were overrun, their conditions often deplorable. The medicines we now use to help treat psychiatric illnesses had not yet been invented.
The lobotomy because the most legitimate form of treatment.
EL-HAI: It was not considered a cure, but it was considered a way to blunt or lessen the symptoms enough so that people could get out and return to their families. And they did, in many cases, return to their families.
GUPTA: The idea behind a lobotomy is that symptoms of mental illness, such as depression, schizophrenia and suicidal tendencies are caused by the connections between the frontal lobes and another part of the brain, the thalamus. Cut the connection, solve the problem.
Over the years, about 40,000 to 50,000 people received lobotomies. According to some estimates, about a third were considered successful.
Ann Krubsack endured schizophrenia for eight years, until she had a lobotomy in 1961.
ANN KRUBSACK, LOBOTOMY PATIENT: And I think I did very well. And I'm not sure if I hadn't had the lobotomy that I would have done that well. GUPTA: But the vast majority of patients did not do well. Some died. Many were left paralyzed. And in the successful cases, where someone was well enough to leave the hospital after their lobotomy, many were not the same person as when they came in.
One of the most famous of Dr. Freeman's patients was Rosemary Kennedy, sister to Jack and Bobby. Born mildly retarded, she functioned independently until age 23, when Dr. Freeman performed the procedure in 1941.
It was a failure. After her lobotomy, Rosemary Kennedy was admitted to a mental institution in Wisconsin, where she remained for 50 years until her death this year at the age of 86.
(on camera): Rosemary Kennedy received a prefrontal lobotomy. But another procedure championed by Freeman was the transorbital, or ice pick lobotomy. It was performed by Dr. Freeman himself or doctors he trained.
They used only this device. It's called a leucotome, and the entire procedure took less than 10 minutes.
(voice-over): Instead of boring through the skull, the doctors could get to the brain through the thin bony plate at the upper part of the eye socket, to sever the neural pathways.
This was the kind of procedure 12-year-old Howard Dully received. But why did Dr. Freeman choose to operate on Howard Dully? According to the records, Dr. Freeman diagnosed the boy a schizophrenic, a diagnosis that according to Howard's doctors would not have held today.
After years of silence, and his stepmother's death, Howard turned to his father, Rodney Dully, for answers in the NPR documentary.
H. DULLY: So how did you find Dr. Freeman?
RODNEY DULLY, FATHER: I didn't. She did. She took you. I don't -- I think she tried some other doctors that said, uh-uh, there's nothing wrong here. He's a normal boy. It was the stepmother problem.
H. DULLY: My question would be naturally, why would you let it happen to me, if that was the case?
R. DULLY: I got manipulated, pure and simple. I was sold a bill of goods. She sold me, and Freeman sold me. And I didn't like it.
GUPTA: After the lobotomy, Dully became a ward of the state, moving from juvenile detention to mental hospital to a home for troubled children, then halfway houses. At one point even living out of a car.
As for Dr. Freeman, he continued to perform lobotomies until 1967, when his final lobotomy patient died from a brain hemorrhage. He was banned from ever operating again. H. DULLY: Considering that my life has been very traumatic because of the lobotomy, it's not what you see as physically, that I dress like a normal person and look normal. It's how you live.
GUPTA: Howard began to turn his life around in the 1990s, and quit drinking. He's now happily married, has a son, and enjoys his job driving a tour bus.
Through this documentary, Howard has found some answers about what exactly happened to him. But the most profound will always elude him.
H. DULLY: I think that I am intelligent enough now, I probably would have been as intelligent enough then to say that I came out as I would have been. I don't know. I don't know how you can go into a brain and scramble it and have me come out like I would have been. That doesn't make sense.
But what specifically have I lost that I'm not capable of doing mentally, I can't answer that.
GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Takes some courage to tell that story.
And that wraps it up for all of us here tonight. Thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate you dropping by. We're going to be back, same time, same place tomorrow night. "LARRY KING LIVE" is next. His guest tonight, Rosie O'Donnell, for the full hour.
Again, thanks for joining us tonight. Good night.
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