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Paula Zahn Now
The Gay Cure?; NASA Astronaut Arrested; Fight Over Immigration Giving New Life to Ku Klux Klan?
Aired February 06, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening, everybody. Thanks so much for being with us tonight.
Here are some of the stories we're bringing out into the open tonight -- how one of this country's most brilliant, accomplished women, someone who has flown in space, ended up charged with attempted murder today.
And we're going to show you why the biggest controversy at the Super Bowl is about a candy bar and two guys kissing.
Plus: All the hysteria over illegal immigration sparks a comeback for the Ku Klux Klan.
We are starting with a scandal that is absolutely fascinating.
Just a couple of hours ago, with a jacket draped over her head, astronaut Lisa Nowak was whisked away from a Florida jail. The story of how she got there is riveting: a drive almost halfway across the country, wearing a diaper, so she wouldn't have to stop. And then a predawn confrontation with a younger woman led to her arrest on a host of charges, including attempted murder.
Her case brings out into the open questions about competition and obsession.
John Zarrella has the very latest on a very long fall from grace.
John, we both have just been handed a statement from Ms. Nowak's family. Share with us what the reaction of her family is to this news today.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF: That's right, Paula.
We are just learning from Nowak's family -- and I will quote here from the statement -- "Considering both her personal and professional life, these alleged events are completely out of character and have come as a tremendous shock to our family."
Now, also included in the statement, we are learning that Lisa Nowak, the astronaut, was apparently separated now from her husband, we are hearing, separated for the last few weeks from her husband, which lends a little bit more of the information to fill in to what happened.
And what happened is this. Lisa Nowak was arrested at Orlando International Airport at about 3:00 a.m. yesterday morning. She had gone to the airport, where she pepper-sprayed another woman, an Air Force captain by the name of Colleen Shipman.
And it turns out that both Nowak and Shipman were in a relationship with the same man, a space shuttle pilot by the name of Bill Oefelein. Oefelein just flew on the Discovery mission back in December.
What happened was that, apparently, Nowak decided she was going to confront Shipman. She drove the 900 miles, wearing diapers, so she would not have to stop, got to the airport, where she knew that Shipman was flying in to, and then followed Shipman out to her car, where she tried to get Shipman to lower her window.
When she did, that's when Nowak pepper-sprayed her. Eventually, police respond, and she is arrested at the airport, where police find a four-inch knife in her possession. They find a mallet, a steel mallet, and four feet of rubber hose.
Now, in court today, in her first appearance, Lisa Nowak was charged with attempted kidnapping. She was also charged with attempted burglary with battery. She was charged with destruction of evidence and battery.
She was released on bond on those charges -- or about to be released -- when, suddenly, the -- the prosecutors and the Orlando police filed another charge -- this charge, the more serious one, attempted murder.
Now, late this afternoon, Paula, she was released on that bond. But I can tell you, also, that Ms. Shipman, Colleen Shipman, apparently had filed a restraining order in the last couple of days against Nowak, saying that Nowak had been stalking her for the past couple of months -- Paula.
ZAHN: Wanted to close tonight, John, with a statement. And it is Lisa Nowak describing the nature of her relationships with Bill Oefelein as -- quote -- "more than a working relationship, but less than a romantic relationship."
What else do we know about any definition of what kind of relationship they had?
ZARRELLA: That's exactly right. That's what she expressed to police, that it was just a relationship, but -- and -- but it was less than a sexual relationship.
We know, at least according to -- to Shipman, that Shipman and Oefelein were boyfriend/girlfriend. And Shipman said, in -- in her affidavit, in -- in her restraining offer -- order, that -- that Nowak was a friend of Oefelein's. That's the way that Shipman put it.
We know they did not fly together, Oefelein and Nowak. We know that there are pictures of the two of them together that NASA released -- from NASA of pre-trip training, things like that. But there's no evidence right now of what kind of a relationship the two of them really had.
ZAHN: John Zarrella, we're going to move on now. Thanks for those late details.
Today's story is light years away from the time when we thought of astronauts as nearly perfect heroes, who always radiated the right stuff.
To explore the wrong stuff and the psychology of workplace obsession, I am joined by Dr. Keith Ablow, who happens to be a psychiatrist, along with psychologist and "New York Daily News" columnist Belisa Vranich.
Great to have both of you with us.
DR. KEITH ABLOW, HOST, "THE DR. KEITH ABLOW SHOW": Well, thank you.
ZAHN: So, Dr. Ablow, we know that this woman was an accomplished astronaut. We know she had to go through very intense, difficult training sessions, psychological screening. What about the plot that we heard about tonight, what does that reveal about her?
ABLOW: Well, number one, it reveals that this was planned. If the facts are as they have been reported, this is premeditated. She drove a long distance. She planned to not use her own name as she checked into a hotel. She avoided going to the rest room, maybe not to be seen.
So, it shows a level of thinking that would suggest, she didn't just snap, obviously, because you don't snap over a 900-mile drive. And, then, when you put that together with the fact that she reportedly stalked this woman, Shipman, then, you start to say, well, there's a real pattern here of "intentional" -- quote, unquote -- behavior toward this other female.
ZAHN: And how would you characterize this intentional behavior?
BELISA VRANICH, PSYCHOLOGIST: It's definitely rage that has to do with love. So, it is a crime of passion very much in the traditional sense.
I wouldn't say it's necessarily psychotic or necessarily delusional, though.
Keith, I don't know if you agree with me.
ABLOW: Well, you know, I think we need the facts to come in, because it's really a spectrum, Paula. You know, you have people who receive information in an even-handed way, say, affection from a friend, a male friend, that she may have received.
Then, there are other people who develop over-valued ideas, so, they come to believe, wait, we have a special relationship. But it's -- it's a shakeable feeling, like, well, if I get other information, I will believe that maybe it's not so special. Then, there are people who do become delusional. And they do have a kind of fixation and delusion that suggests, no, no, no, we have a loving relationship. We're meant for each other for all time.
Now, that can accompany depression. That can be a delusion in and of itself. So, we need the facts to come in, before we diagnose this woman.
ZAHN: But her statement would seem to indicate that this was, in her words, more than a working relationship, but less than a romantic relationship. So, are you talking about fantasy here?
VRANICH: To me, that's a hint that it's sexual, because romantic does not necessarily mean that it's sexual. So, to me, if you don't have romance and you don't have professional, it's hinting on sexual.
And that doesn't necessarily mean that they have had sex. It can very well mean that it was hinted at; there's been some flirtation. But, somehow, her fantasy has been fed.
ABLOW: You know, it's really in the mind of the storyteller. And that's why it's inside her mind that we need to go, because, you know what, if somebody gives you some personal information, you can say, OK, now we're friends. Or, if you have it in mind that you have a special and quasi-romantic connection, you can say, oh, well, now he feels that way about me, too.
And, then, every smile, every casual touch, every "I wish you well" becomes imbued with special meaning, but only to that person.
And I will tell you, doing your job well as an astronaut or as a surgeon, because I have treated surgeons who go to work with delusions, right -- not that they would harm their patients, but fixed and false beliefs that are very serious in nature. Doing your job well doesn't mean you are not laboring under a very serious illness.
ZAHN: You also hear so many stories about the kind of depression astronauts are often confronted with when they come back from this amazing experience of being in space, and how teeny-tiny they feel when they come back.
Could -- could that play any role in this?
VRANICH: Well, I think, Paula, that, if you have two people that have gone through an experience that's been incredibly intense, they feel connected. And there's been studies that talk about arousal and attraction.
This is classic. They're in a situation that's -- I mean, it's simulated, but it is life-threatening. And they're in very close quarters, where crew camaraderie and having a very smooth-moving relationship is really something very valued.
ZAHN: But these two were never on a mission together, although...
ABLOW: They weren't.
VRANICH: Yes.
ZAHN: ... they were in training...
ABLOW: They weren't.
VRANICH: They were in training.
ZAHN: ... together.
VRANICH: Yes, they were in training.
But the simulated experiences that they have to go through are very intense, very hard.
ABLOW: You know, I still go back to the close quarters in which she grew up, because, truly, the sensitization that leads somebody to lose touch with reality and become intensely jealous, very competitive for affection, that goes back to early chapters in an individual's life story. That's where people need to go to understand this woman.
ZAHN: Absolutely fascinating.
Dr. Keith Ablow, thank you.
Dr. Belisa Vranich.
ABLOW: Thanks.
ZAHN: Glad to have both of you with us tonight.
CNN is going to have a whole lot more on this story coming up at the top of the hour. Among the exclusive guests on "LARRY KING LIVE" are the second man to walk on the moon, former astronaut Buzz Aldrin.
Lots of people watch the Super Bowl for the commercials as much as for the game. Yeah, I'm one of those -- coming up, the candy bar commercial that featured two guys kissing. Gay activists are outraged. Wait until you see what they're demanding.
Then, a little bit later on: a minister's change of heart. After a scandal involving a gay prostitute and just three weeks of counseling, he now says he's completely heterosexual. How is that possible?
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Who would have thought a candy bar commercial could cause such controversy?
The next story we're bringing out in the open tonight: the outrage over the Snickers ad that aired during the Super Bowl. It shows two guys freaking out after accidentally kissing while sharing a candy bar.
Advertisers, of course, try to outdoor each other with clever, funny commercials during the Super Bowl. But a lot of people are saying tonight this one crossed the line into intolerance.
Here's entertainment correspondent Brooke Anderson.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE SOLMONESE, PRESIDENT, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN TO END DISCRIMINATION AGAINST GAYS: I feel like we're 20 years back from -- from where we are in this fight.
BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN CULTURE AND ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Outrage from gay-rights groups across the country over a commercial that more than 90 million people saw during Sunday's Super Bowl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, SNICKERS AD)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I think we just accidentally kissed.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Quick. Do something manly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOLMONESE: It's a sort of a haunting reminder once again that we have got a lot more work to do.
ANDERSON: Neither the Human Rights Campaign, nor the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation found the campaign very funny. In fact, they found it homophobic.
Both organizations called for Masterfoods, the parent company of Mars, which makes Snickers, to pull the entire ad blitz. The campaign included an elaborate online element that was quietly removed on Tuesday, in response to the criticism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Is there room for three on this love boat?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Before the Web campaign was taken down, the Snickers site featured three alternate endings to the commercial, now shown on YouTube, including "Love Boat," and this version, called "Wrench."
SOLMONESE: Hate crimes are as prevalent as ever in our country. And this sort of imagery does nothing to help fight against that kind of condition that we have in our country. It only contributes to it.
ANDERSON: Also contributing to it, they say, is the appearance of NFL players responding to the ad on the Snickers Web site.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did they actually have to kiss like that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, this -- that is not right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It definitely blew my mind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this one is one of those -- one of those that's going to be remembered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: The blogosphere erupted, targeting Mars with posts like this one: "The entire thing is absolutely sickening. They were gay-bashing for fun."
The ladies of "The View" tackled the topic -- Rosie O'Donnell leading the charge -- with mixed feelings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE VIEW")
ROSIE O'DONNELL, CO-HOST: Well, not every gay person thought it was unfunny.
BARBARA WALTERS, CO-HOST: And I guess not every gay...
(CROSSTALK)
O'DONNELL: And, you know, not every gay person was offended.
(CROSSTALK)
O'DONNELL: ... first saw it, I did have a little bit of an "uh." But, you know...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You did?
O'DONNELL: Just, like, "uh."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: The Colts, one of the teams whose players are featured online, declined comment. And the Bears haven't returned CNN calls.
Masterfoods insists, the ad was merely meant to be funny: "We know that humor is highly subjective, and understand that some people may have found the ad offensive. Clearly, that was not our intent."
No matter the intent, this controversy is proof that a Snickers doesn't always satisfy.
Brooke Anderson, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Let's turn to tonight's "Out in the Open" panel now, John Aravosis, founder of AMERICAblog.com, attorney Lauren Lake, and the Reverend Joe Watkins, a Republican political consultant.
Glad to have all three of you with us tonight.
JOHN ARAVOSIS, AMERICABLOG.COM: So, John, you heard the company's statement. It was not their intent to insult anybody in any way, you know, claiming that they made this commercial to be funny.
Are -- are you taking this -- are -- are you being too sensitive about this?
ARAVOSIS: I don't think so, Paula.
I mean, I think what had happened was, it wasn't the commercial that aired during the Super Bowl. I saw that one. And I remember kind of going -- I cringed a little, and I thought, yes, you know, whatever. It was kind of funny. And I let it go.
The next morning, which was this morning, I went online and found out they had set up a Web site with three alternate commercials, including one that ended with a guy beating the other one with a -- like, a big sledgehammer kind of thing, or a crowbar or whatever, and -- and then showed players' reactions. And they videotaped the actual NFL players, basically, saying, that ain't right about two guys kissing, and, you know, this is disgusting.
And it -- it -- that, for me, crossed the line, in terms of sending a message out. You can disagree on gay issues, but I don't think we need NFL players going on TV, telling kids, you know, that ain't right; that's disgusting.
I just -- I didn't see what the point was. It just seemed kind of offensive.
ZAHN: But, in addition to that, some people also thought this commercial -- or at least the alternative endings on the Web site, were promoting some kind of violence against gays.
REVEREND JOE WATKINS, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: Well, the whole thing, I think, Paula, is that they should...
ZAHN: But is it -- is that the way you saw it?
WATKINS: Well, I didn't -- you know, what -- what I saw, basically, was, I -- I saw a candy company that really should have been promoting how good its candy is.
I mean, I like Snickers bars. I -- they're delicious. I love chocolate. I love caramel. I love nuts.
(CROSSTALK) ZAHN: You have got a contract coming your way, Reverend Joe.
LAUREN LAKE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. OK. OK. You're making me hungry.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: But they didn't have -- they didn't have to go there. It didn't have to be about that.
And I was worried for the little kids that were watching. I mean, for adults, who clearly know who they are and can make choices about the kind of lifestyle they want to live, that's one thing.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Wait.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Are you...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: ... it was promoting homosexuality?
(CROSSTALK)
ARAVOSIS: That -- that's absurd.
WATKINS: Well -- well...
(CROSSTALK)
ARAVOSIS: No.
(CROSSTALK)
ARAVOSIS: What this commercial was doing was violence. I think we can all agree about the violence. The violence aspect isn't appropriate.
LAKE: Well, the commercial itself -- the commercial itself wasn't really promoting the violence, because -- I'm going to be honest.
(CROSSTALK)
LAKE: When I first saw the commercial itself...
ARAVOSIS: Yes.
LAKE: ... I...
(CROSSTALK)
ARAVOSIS: No, not on TV. Yes. Yes. The TV one was fine, so to speak.
(CROSSTALK)
LAKE: The commercial made me feel like, oh, my gosh; they're making fun of how silly men can be, in their macho nonsense. That's what I originally got from the commercial.
(CROSSTALK)
LAKE: It was the online portion of it.
(CROSSTALK)
ARAVOSIS: Right.
WATKINS: But think about -- think about two 5-year-olds who happen to see the commercial and, then, this week, at school...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: ... they decide they want to mimic the commercial.
ARAVOSIS: Right. With all due respect...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Now, is that a good thing? I don't think so.
ARAVOSIS: Wait.
But, with all due respect, I would be a lot more worried about a kid picking up a crowbar and beating another kid, because that one is in the commercial, than two kids kissing accidentally eating a Snickers.
I mean, I would just say that I think, in terms of priorities, let's all agree that maybe violence is a much bigger priority we should be worried about than two guys maybe showing affection. I just think priorities are screwed up here.
LAKE: And I think, if we're going to be a nation that is trying to be more tolerant, more understanding and sensitive to others, we have to be conscious of the images that our commercials are giving out to our kids and to everyone.
ARAVOSIS: And this very discussion probably isn't what Snickers wanted, I would hope.
WATKINS: Well, no. It...
(CROSSTALK)
ARAVOSIS: This... (CROSSTALK)
LAKE: This is definitely not...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: The discussion ought to be about how good their candy is...
LAKE: And it's not.
ARAVOSIS: Fair enough.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: ... and not about the fact that I happen to be a heterosexual guy and -- and -- and...
(CROSSTALK)
ARAVOSIS: And, whether you think it's violence...
(CROSSTALK)
ARAVOSIS: ... or whether you think it's inappropriate, this -- across the board, nobody -- well, for -- all of us, none of us apparently liked it. So...
ZAHN: Well, we now know that GLAAD and other gay groups have come out swinging against Mars and the NFL.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: And we should make it clear, on your blog, obviously, you deal with a lot of issues, and particularly discrimination against gays.
(CROSSTALK)
ARAVOSIS: ... political issues, correct. Correct.
ZAHN: Are you willing to go as far as to say tonight that -- that the Web site was sort of a cute way to get people to be anti- homophobic, if -- if they didn't get that message in the commercial?
ARAVOSIS: Well, I don't -- I don't think so, only because you could argue that the commercials were trying to be some weird lesson on homophobia. I don't know. I didn't take it that way.
But, once you did interviews with the NFL players -- basically, they interviewed them. They showed them the commercials, and then videoed the players' reactions, going...
ZAHN: Which we saw just a little...
(CROSSTALK) ZAHN: ... Brooke's piece.
ARAVOSIS: Exactly.
And they weren't reacting to the crowbar. They were reacting to guys kissing, going: That ain't right. That's disgusting.
There's no way that that message is saying that you should tolerant -- tolerate gay people. It just -- that wasn't the message.
WATKINS: Well, I don't think that is what it's about.
ZAHN: Quickly.
WATKINS: I think it's about the fact that a lot of the players happen to be heterosexual. And, for them, I mean...
ARAVOSIS: Maybe.
WATKINS: I mean, it could have, as well, been a commercial about a man and a woman sharing a bar and kissing at the end.
(CROSSTALK)
ARAVOSIS: And if they got violent at the end, that would be a bad thing.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: The whole point is that...
(CROSSTALK)
LAKE: But I think, inadvertently, if not purposefully...
ARAVOSIS: Right.
LAKE: ... they set the players up to almost maybe offend some of the fans...
ARAVOSIS: I would agree with that, yes.
(CROSSTALK)
LAKE: ... that admire them. And I think that that's important, too.
(CROSSTALK)
LAKE: I mean, here, they have set them up. I mean, these players didn't know they were...
ARAVOSIS: They didn't look totally comfortable even answering.
(CROSSTALK)
ARAVOSIS: One of them was like, oh, oh. You could tell he was kind of going, what are you doing...
(CROSSTALK)
LAKE: You could see his body language, yes.
ARAVOSIS: Yes.
ZAHN: All right. We have got a lot more to talk about tonight.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: Please stay with us.
Still to come here: Just before last year's election, a well known conservative minister stepped down in disgrace because of a scandal involving a male prostitute. Now he says he is completely heterosexual, after just three weeks of counseling. We're going to look into that next.
Then, a little bit later on: The fight over illegal immigration gives new life to the Ku Klux Klan. And a lot of people are alarmed by its growth.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Out in the open tonight: whether counseling can cure someone of being homosexual? That question is key in our next story.
Do you remember the Reverend Ted Haggard? He led a 14,000-member church and was head of the National Association of Evangelicals, until last November. Well, that's when a male prostitute claimed they had, had a three-year sex-for-cash relationship. Well, now we are hearing that Haggard, after just three weeks in rehab, is calling himself completely heterosexual.
Brian Todd brings us the latest tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He at first denied knowing a former male prostitute. But when recorded calls were made public, he admitted:
TED HAGGARD, FORMER PASTOR: I did call him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what did you call him about?
HAGGARD: I called him to buy some meth, but I threw it away.
TODD: Then he denied the man's allegations of a sexual affair, but said:
HAGGARD: I went there for a massage.
TODD: And, later, he confessed to sexual immorality. Now Reverend Ted Haggard says, Jesus is starting to put him back together.
In an e-mail to his former congregation obtained by CNN from the New Life Church, Haggard says -- quote -- "I have been paralyzed by shame," and says he's gotten three weeks of intensive psychological treatment in Arizona.
According to "The Denver Post," Haggard has told a church panel responsible for his discipline that he is convinced he is completely heterosexual, and that his sexual contact with men was limited to his accuser.
A psychiatrist who has treated clergy, but not Haggard, believes that reported communication is a kind of code to Haggard's followers.
DR. JACK DRESCHER, AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION: By declaring that one is no longer in that behavior, to people of that faith, it's like saying that they're not homosexual anymore, because they believe homosexuality is just a behavior, and not an identity.
TODD: Last November, Haggard was fired from the 14,000-member New Life Church, and resigned as leader of the National Association of Evangelicals, after his dealings with the former prostitute were made public. But that man's credibility were also questioned when he failed a lie-detector test. No charges have been filed against either man.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: No charges, despite two separate probes into Haggard's dealings, one by the Denver police, which found no criminal wrongdoing, and, the second, an internal investigation by the New Life Church.
Now, officials there say that they should have the results of that in about two weeks -- Paula.
ZAHN: So, what happens to Ted Haggard now, Brian?
TODD: Well, in that e-mail to his congregation, he indicated that he and his wife plan to move away from Colorado Springs, possibly to Missouri or Iowa. And he says they want to pursue their master's degrees in psychology.
ZAHN: We will be watching. Brian Todd, thanks.
Back to...
TODD: Thank you.
ZAHN: ... our "Out in the Open" panel now, John Aravosis, Lauren Lake, and the Reverend Joe Watkins.
So, Laura, do you believe Reverend Haggard when he says he's cleared -- cured, and these were just an isolated indiscretion or two?
LAKE: Absolutely not. And that's ridiculous. I'm very disappointed.
ZAHN: Reverend Joe Watkins, do you believe him?
WATKINS: Well, you have to believe people. And I hope and pray that he's -- he's being honest. I really do.
LAKE: Oh.
ZAHN: He hopes and prays he's being honest.
WATKINS: I do.
ZAHN: Do you think he's being honest?
ARAVOSIS: I hope and pray he's being honest, too. And I don't believe so.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: And why is that?
ARAVOSIS: Because I don't think you have three years of cheating on your wife, doing -- buying crystal meth, and basically being gay, and then you go to some three-week miracle course, and, suddenly, you're straight, and you longer have a drug problem.
I just -- it's -- you know, he's apparently on the top of the miracle list of all Americans.
(LAUGHTER)
ARAVOSIS: I just don't buy it.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: And let me...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Before we go any further, let me read a statement from the American Psychological Association.
And they say that a so-called cure for homosexuality is -- quote -- "For over three decades, the consensus of the mental health community has been that homosexuality is not an illness and therefore not in need of a cure. There is simply no sufficiently scientifically sound evidence that sexual orientation can be changed."
ARAVOSIS: That's right.
ZAHN: Can homosexuality be cured?
WATKINS: Well, I don't know -- I don't know. I'm not a psychologist or a -- or a -- or a psychiatrist.
But I do know this. I'm a minister. I -- I'm a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And whether or not -- people have the choice to practice a certain kind of lifestyle. Now, whatever -- however Ted Haggard is wired, I don't know, because I now how I'm wired. I understand that.
But I do know this, that he does have the choice to live the kind of lifestyle that he wants to live. And, hopefully, he is going to choose to live a lifestyle that is in concert with what -- what the Bible teaches.
ARAVOSIS: But...
LAKE: Well, Paula, now, if there was a cure that you could get for this, I have tons of friend that would have purchased that cure a long time ago.
Homosexuality comes with huge stigma, I mean, lots of turmoil. It's -- it's not always this walking through the park that people think it is. People really suffer trying to deal with their sexual identity. And I think, for him to just say three weeks of restoration therapy, and I'm cured, I just think that's downright despicable.
And I think it's an abuse of the power and the influence that he has over so many of his parishioners. I really, really don't care for the way he's handled this situation. And I'm glad you're having this piece, because it needs to be said.
ZAHN: Abuse, in terms of the manipulation of his followers?
ARAVOSIS: Well, absolutely.
I mean, you have got a man who, even at the beginning -- first, he denied any of it was true. Then, he started giving these hints about, well, I kind of know this guy or I don't.
It just kept dribbling out. And, finally, we found out, like I said, he was buying drugs, and he was sleeping with a prostitute, and paying him for three years. Whatever.
I mean, I'm -- I'm kind of over the Haggard issue, in any case, at this point. But I do agree there's an abuse issue, because the man had a flock. He was the head of 30 million evangelicals. That's not a small thing.
But the larger question, as -- as you have raised -- or we have raised here -- is this idea of curing gay people. It's almost as if he's got -- sort of taking one last swipe at whoever he can...
(LAUGHTER)
ARAVOSIS: ... by saying, we can cure people.
And you know what? As -- as you said, I mean, I know a lot of people who aren't looking to be cured, but -- but a lot of people...
LAKE: Exactly.
ARAVOSIS: But a lot of people have...
(CROSSTALK)
ARAVOSIS: ... have been troubled about being gay, certainly when they first come out, because of the prejudice that's out there -- Snickers, thank you -- that they would have been cured, if they could have been.
And you know what? They haven't been. It's just not real.
ZAHN: Did you feel that? You -- you came out of the closet, right?
ARAVOSIS: Yes. Yes. I mean, I grew up as a...
ZAHN: Did you feel that pressure?
ARAVOSIS: I grew up as a gay kid, and hated it, until I was in my mid-20s. You don't even think you can live -- live at all, let alone -- let alone be productive in life.
I thought my family would hate me. I would have taken a cure in a second. I was -- I am religious. I'm a Christian. I would have -- I prayed to God when I was a kid that I could no longer be gay.
And you know what? Sometimes, you are what you are. I hate to compare it with cancer because it's different. But I mean, people pray for a lot of things --
WATKINS: But people also make choices. He chose to be married. He chose to have children and he's somebody's father. He's somebody's husband. The whole idea -- Christian people are supposed to be faithful to their wives, their spouses. He should do that. If he practices that kind of a lifestyle --
ARAVOSIS: But he's still gay and he's still married, I'm creeped out if he's lying to his wife and he's still in the marriage. I'm with you, he should be faithful to his wife and I hope he's not lying to her right now.
LAKE: Three weeks of restoration therapy is not going to cure anything. The only thing he wants to be restored to is the power and the political presence that he had before. And we're not buying it.
ARAVOSIS: This guy, he lost a lot.
ZAHN: We're not done with the three of you yet. Stand by, please.
Changing times have brought an old problem back out in the open. Coming up, the brand new study out just today that blames the resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan on the fight over illegal immigration.
Then we're going to head for an airport where some travelers say they can't catch a cab because the Muslim cab drivers are being too strict about religion, especially when it comes to alcohol. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Welcome back. We are bringing a clash of religion and American culture out into the open tonight. Most of the taxi drivers who pick up passengers at the airport in Minneapolis are Muslim. And many refuse to pick up anyone carrying alcohol. While the drivers say that violates their religion, airport officials say it could cost them their jobs. Is that fair? Here's Keith Oppenheim with more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you see yourself as an American?
ADBULKADDIR ADAN, MUSLIM CAB DRIVER: I'm an American. I see myself as an American.
OPPENHEIM: Adbulkaddir Adan has been driving a cab in the twin cities for two years. Adan says he'd take me anywhere unless I was carrying alcohol.
ADAN: The one who drinks, the one who transports and the one who makes business of it, they have the same category.
OPPENHEIM: So by taking my alcohol into your cab, you are sinning?
ADAN: Sinning to God, yep.
OPPENHEIM: Adan is not alone. About three quarters of the 900 cabbies serving the airport are Muslims, many who say they will not pick up any passenger who has beer, wine or liquor.
ABDI AHMED, MUSLIM CAN DRIVER: This is America. We have freedom of religion.
OPPENHEIM: Bob Dildine is one of 5400 passengers who has been refused service in the last five years.
BOB DILDINE, PASSENGER: We were standing right in this area right here.
OPPENHEIM: Last May, Dildine says he was traveling with wine he bought on vacation when five cab drivers refused to give him and his daughter a ride.
DILDINE: They're here to provide a service to people. We were a lawful customer and we were denied service. That's not our way of doing things.
OPPENHEIM: The Metropolitan Airport Commission or MAC, consulted the local Muslim-American society, which issued this fatwa, or religious opinion.
KHALID ELMASRY, MUSLIM AMERICAN SOCIETY: It's actually clear and expressly stated that transportation of alcohol for Muslims is against the Islamic faith and, therefore, forbidden.
OPPENHEIM: Airport officials say after thousands of complaints from passengers, they looked for a compromise. Last September, an idea was floated to put distinctive lights on the roofs of cabs of observant Muslim drivers. The idea was that the taxi starter, the person who directs you to a cab, would be able to send people with packages like this to those cab drivers who have no objection to transporting alcohol.
PAT HOGAN, AIRPORT SPOKESPERSON: But the feedback we got, not only locally but really from around the country and, in fact, around the world was almost entirely negative. People saw that as condoning discrimination against people who had alcohol.
OPPENHEIM: Right now, any cabby who refuses a passenger carrying alcohol has to go to the back of the line. That could mean another three-hour wait for a fare. But now MAC is considering stiffer penalties, a 30-day suspension for a first refusal, a two-year suspension for a second.
HOGAN: We're now at a point where the taxi drivers may have to make a choice that either this is a good fit for them in terms of their career options or they might need to look for another place to earn their living.
OPPENHEIM: Like many cabbies here, Adan feels the airport is unsympathetic and intolerant.
ADAN: I would leave my job instead of doing something that's not allowed in my religion.
OPPENHEIM: If he does leave, Adan could be one of hundreds of Minnesota cabbies who will choose their faith over the next fare. Keith Oppenheim, CNN, Minneapolis.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And airport officials are planning a hearing this month on this issue. And if new penalties are put in place, they will hold a job fair for any cabby who needs to find work.
A disturbing new report out today about intolerance. It says after years of decline, the Ku Klux Klan is making a comeback. It also pinpoints the reason why.
And in our people you should know segment, you're going to meet the very first Arab-American to be put in charge of her state's homeland security department.
Tonight's edition of "Larry King Live" includes friends and colleagues of arrested astronaut Lisa Nowak. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: We are bringing a frightening new trend out in the open tonight. Today the Anti-Defamation League released a brand new report that shows that the Ku Klux Klan is on the rebound and recruiting new members at an alarming rate. So what's their new strategy? Here's Deborah Feyerick.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're going to make y'all number two if you don't get them out of here.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the newest marketing tool for hate groups, illegal immigration, a topic so divisive the KKK has been signing new members, some say, at a rate not seen since the 1960s. Ray Larson is imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan in Indiana. Did a light bulb go off in your head that said, this is our new issue?
RAY LARSEN, IMPERIAL WIZARD, Ku Klux Klan: Absolutely. Illegal immigrants is bringing us far more members than we did when we were just totally against any ethnic group.
FEYERICK: Larsen, a retired rail worker said he joined the Klan in 1960 at the urging of his wife. Forty six years later he's strongly committed to the KKK's future. So illegal immigrants will become a bigger part of the message than, let's say, trying to attract people by hating blacks.
LARSEN: That's correct.
FEYERICK: Or hating gays?
LARSEN: Right.
FEYERICK: Or by hating Jews, for that matter.
LARSEN: Right.
FEYERICK: All right, so you found a winning strategy?
LARSEN: Yes, ma'am.
FEYERICK: A strategy that included staging this rally in Russellville, Alabama, just 24 hours after last year's national day without immigrants when racial tension in some communities ran especially high, so high, Larsen says he ran out of membership applications.
LARSEN: Only took 100 of them to Russellville. I never dreamed that thing was going to be that big.
FEYERICK: There's no way to verify how many rally attendees actually became Klan members. But the response supports what the Anti-Defamation League calls surprising and troubling findings in its new report about the KKK. In it, the ADL warns of a, quote, noticeable spike in activity by Klan chapters across the country, many of them exploiting illegal immigration. As a reformed member of the Aryan Nation, Floyd Cochran knows firsthand what fuels hate groups like the KKK. He tracks them on his website, eyeonhate.com. FLOYD COCHRAN, WWW.EYEONHATE.COM: A good percentage of the people who are joining hate groups today are under the age of 25. More often than not, they're young white males, which is a segment of society that more often than not feels like they are left out. Politicians don't come and talk to young white males.
FEYERICK: The Southern Poverty Law Center which tracks hate crimes found that between 2000 and 2005, Klan chapters grew by 63 percent, a spike which some believe is the result of the heated debate on immigration, which at times uses hateful language.
CESAR PARALES, PUERTO RICAN LEGAL DEF. FUND: When you start using terms, when you start saying, this is an invasion, these are cockroaches coming into our land, you are using obviously racist language. You're trying to make people hate others and that is your real intent.
FEYERICK: That's Larsen's plan.
LARSEN: I'm going to be very emotional right from the get-go, yes.
FEYERICK: Entice new members who hate illegal immigrants, then brainwash them to hate others like blacks, Jews and gays once they're hooked. By making illegal immigration your issue, is this to ensure the survival of the KKK?
LARSEN: To ensure it, no. To assist us, yes.
FEYERICK: An effective marketing tool that taps into a dangerous mindset. Deborah Feyerick, CNN, South Bend, Indiana.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Once again, let's go to our out into the open panel, John Aravosis, Lauren Lake, Reverend Joe Watkins. All right, the strategy is very clear. They're going to capitalize on anti-immigration fears to try to get new members and to try to get those new members to hate blacks, Jews, just about any minority group. Are people that vulnerable to hate and the KKK's message?
LAKE: They're definitely up to the same old tricks and unfortunately Paula, they're working and you know why? Because we're in a country here where there's a culture of fear. People fear other people they don't know, they don't understand, that they've never lived with. We fear immigration. We fear the terrorists. They all have brown skin. They don't look like this. Oh, goodness no. I need to join a hate group because I need to be found (ph). I need to feel safe. That's what's happening out here and if we don't start trying to understand these real issues and the policies of our country don't change, we're going to see more of this. I hate to say it, but I'm not surprised.
WATKINS: It can change. The sad thing is that when people are competing with other folks for jobs, especially jobs at the lower end, they want to scapegoat somebody. And in this case now, they're going to scapegoat folks who are here as undocumented workers. People who come -- this is a country of immigrants.
ZAHN: These are people who are breaking the law. There are a lot of people in America who don't think that you should encourage these people to stay. So the KKK as much as you hate what they're doing right now, you will get some agreement on the issue of illegal immigration, not for recruitment purposes.
WATKINS: Certainly not for recruitment purposes, certainly not from the standpoint of scapegoating. You don't scapegoat anybody. We're a country of immigrants, legal immigrants, that is.
ZAHN: Involuntary ones.
WATKINS: There you go. And the whole idea is for people to come here to this country and to do it the right way, to do it legally. But you don't scapegoat the folks that are here, even if they're here illegally. You don't scapegoat them.
ARAVOSIS: But we are and that's the problem. And I think that's what you were getting at Lauren is that particularly over the last six years. I'm sorry. We've gone after the Muslims, Muslim Americans. We've gone after the gays. We've gone after the Mexicans now, the immigrants. We take every problem and try to blow it up into some community-wide issue about them. It's always them. And yeah, September 11th, big problem, terrorism, big problem. But why we had to turn internally -- it's almost as if we're trying to pick all these internal enemies. It does help these hate groups grow. It doesn't cause hatred to exist, but it feeds them.
ZAHN: So while no one is surprised by these numbers and how this movement has been fed, how alarming should be we be -- alarmed, I should say.
WATKINS: Very, alarmed, very alarmed because we like to think of ourselves as the home of the brave and land of the free. That's what we are here in the United States of America. This is the greatest country in the world and to think that hate groups like that could flourish here is --
LAKE: And to also think that we spend all of our time worrying about what the enemy is going to do with us, the enemy outside of us, when really we have our back door open for the enemy that's right here in our own home territory that's going to come in and steal many of the souls of our people.
ARAVOSIS: Look after September 11th. Again, it wasn't just internationally that we had such an opportunity to bring people together. But in this country people got a lot nicer. We were scared to death but walking around the streets of DC, people were damn nice and we lost all of that and I don't know how we get it back.
ZAHN: But you were saying, Reverend, at the root of all this hate is basically people fighting over crumbs economically.
WATKINS: I think that's what it is. I think that's what it is. And you know what, people can change, too. ZAHN: That existed before 9/11.
WATKINS: It sure did. It sure did. And we have to also remember that people can change. You don't fight hate with hate. People can change. I knew a Klansman once in the state of Indiana who changed, who left the Klan and then really wanted to do something to change things and to make people aware of the fact that Americans are Americans and we ought to love each other.
LAKE: This same thing that is feeding the Ku Klux Klan is the same thing that feeds gangs. They can prey on people that feel lost and out of control. They want answers. And they stand there as the organization that knows all the answers and we can solve all the problems. That's what they're giving them right now. And I think it's unfortunate we're in a country where the citizens feel so lost and out of control that they would fall for this dirty old trick and ridiculous group.
ARAVOSIS: And with the gangs at least -- and God forbid I say something positive about the gangs -- you at least don't have politicians, TV shows. I'll say on every network. You focus a lot on hate, that's great. A lot of other shows actually put people that are kind of hateful on TV because they want them more extreme. Getting back to the Snickers commercial, they want to be extreme. They want to push the edge, push people's buttons. At least with gangs we're not creating a culture, where it's like hey, join a gang. With the hate groups, who are we telling people, Mexicans, gays, Muslims. We keep increasing the list of who they should be worried about.
ZAHN: We've got to leave it there, John Aravosis, Lauren Lake, Reverend Watkins. Really appreciate your being here tonight, covered a lot of territory.
Time to check in with Larry King. His show is coming up just about 10 minutes from now. What are you doing tonight Larry?
LARRY KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're doing the full show on this incredible astronaut story. We have a whole array of guests including Buzz Aldrin, second man on the moon, including a gentleman who grew up with the young lady, another gentleman who interviewed her for a magazine, plus our own CNN reporters. And if you can explain this story, you're a better person than me, Paula.
ZAHN: Listen, we were just -- our panel here reading the statement from her family, which was quite heartfelt. It came from her sister saying that they, too, want to understand. And they talk about this incredible life she led in the navy and all of her accomplishments. I think everybody's head is spinning about what would lead a woman to put herself in a circumstance where, as an astronaut that had this incredibly privileged mission, is now facing attempted murder charges.
KING: You know what, Paula? We never know.
ZAHN: No, that's true.
KING: Never know.
ZAHN: That could be the great title of a book, Larry, someday. You should be working on it.
KING: You and me write it together. Paul and Larry, "you never know."
ZAHN: I'll go after King because "Z" always comes last. It's so hard to be a "Z." All right Larry, have a good show. Last in line for the drinking fountain at school. Let me tell you. We're going to take a quick biz break right now. Stocks ended the day just a little bit higher. The Dow gained four points. Both the Nasdaq and the S&P were up slightly.
A Federal court ruled today that Wal-Mart must face a class action lawsuit alleging that it paid women employees less than men and promoted fewer women to management. That case could be the largest class action employment discrimination suit in U.S. history.
And just days after Microsoft unveiled its new Vista operating system, there are reports of bootleg versions being sold overseas for less than $10, a very steep and very illegal discount.
Every week we introduce you to someone who's doing important or groundbreaking work in our people you should know segment. Coming up next, a woman who is tracking terrorists and breaking barriers. And get this, she just happens to be an Arab American.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Let's begin our "people you should know" segment tonight with a controversial question. Would you trust an Arab American with our national security? Well, it might surprise you to know that an Arab American is in charge of protecting Massachusetts where two planes involved in the 9/11 attacks took off. Here's Dan Lothian with tonight's "people you should know."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FOX: I don't want to hurt any of you, but I will unless you do exactly what I say.
(INAUDIBLE) was right. You are a terrorist.
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's fictional scenes like this from the hit TV show "24" that Juliette Kayyem says create real stereotypes against Arab Americans.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, UNDERSEC, HOMELAND SECURITY FOR MASS: For the most part, this is a community that doesn't want to be antagonized by Federal or state law enforcement and has been looking for, I think, someone to help bridge those gaps. I want to be that bridge.
LOTHIAN: As Massachusetts's undersecretary of homeland security and the first Arab American in the U.S. to hold such a title, Kayyem is hoping her position will help Americans realize the important role Arab Americans can play in the country's culture, economy and security.
KAYYEM: Arab Americans are in all parts of our society, helping protect America, love America, are part of America and America's security.
LOTHIAN: Kayyem is not a newcomer to U.S. security. After graduating from Harvard law school, she headed to DC. Becoming an adviser to Attorney General Janet Reno on security issues. In 1999, she was one of only 10 people appointed to the national commission on terrorism. By 2000, she was back at Harvard, lecturing at the Kennedy school of government and sharing her counterterrorism expertise on various media outlets. As a Lebanese American, Kayyem recognizes the significance of her ethnicity as the Bay state's homeland security chief, but says the greater accomplishment is yet to come.
KAYYEM: I think the more important part is when the 15th Arab American gets appointed to a position like this that is actually not a big deal, that this should be like every other sort of major appointment. It should just be part and parcel of who they are.
LOTHIAN: Dan Lothian, CNN, Boston.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And coming up at the top of the hour, "Larry King Live." Colleagues of arrested astronaut Lisa Nowak. He'll devote the entire hour to that story. We'll be right back.
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