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Paula Zahn Now
Is Racial Profiling Ever Justified?; Plus-Size Humor
Aired February 07, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody. Thank you all for dropping by here tonight.
Here are some of the stories we're bringing out into the open.
Tonight: a new take on racial profiling. Can it ever be justified?
A pair of Hollywood's comedies about overweight black women, funny, or insulting and humiliating?
Plus: starving to be thin. We have got the secrets the top models in the fashion industry don't want you to hear. And they are not very pretty stories.
We start with a right we all have guaranteed by the Constitution against unreasonable searches. You would think that that would especially include racial profiling, when police stop and search you for absolutely no reason, other than the color of your skin.
Well, get this. First in Washington, and now in New York, brand- new reports show that people of color are getting stopped more and more often.
In a minute, we're going to hear from an expert who says, that's just fine and appropriate.
But, first, Dan Lothian looks at the outrage police are causing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Stopped...
CYRL DAVIS, BOILER REPAIR MAN: And I show him I.D.
LOTHIAN: ... frisked...
DAVIS: It happens a lot. It happens a lot.
LOTHIAN: ... and questioned.
DAVIS: He said, "Where you going?"
"Work."
LOTHIAN: Police in New York City cracking down on crime, but what happens when the majority of those targeted are black, like Cyrl Davis, a boiler repairman, who says it has happened to him several times on his way to and from work?
(on camera): When it happens to you, do you feel like you're being harassed?
DAVIS: Yes, of course.
AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: The numbers are so big and so out of proportion that you can't explain that. Either blacks genetically have a criminal line in their DNA, or there's an imbalance in how the criminal justice system responds.
And you're listening to "Keeping It Real."
LOTHIAN: Activist and radio talk show host Reverend Al Sharpton is critical of a recent NYPD report. It shows a five-fold increase in police stops last year, compared to 2002. What really makes him angry, of the 508,000 people stopped, 85 percent are either black or Hispanic.
SHARPTON: Look at the numbers here. Just do the math. This does not make sense.
LOTHIAN: Sharpton, who has vowed to file a class-action lawsuit, concludes, blacks are the victims of racial profiling.
SHARPTON: People of a certain color are more prone to be chosen, frisked, stopped.
RAYMOND KELLY, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: Well, I don't believe there's racial profiling. We have a very specific and direct policy against racial profiling.
LOTHIAN (on camera): Commissioner Kelly says, the reason the number of blacks who were stopped is so high is because nearly 70 percent of the crimes reported involve suspects described as black.
(voice-over): And the overall high number of stops, he says, is directly related to better reporting and stepped-up policing in high- crime areas.
KELLY: It's certainly not about the color of the skin. It's about their actions. It's about a description, perhaps, of someone who has just committed a crime. It's a whole totality of the circumstances that bring about a stop-and-question situation.
LOTHIAN: But some still question the numbers, not only in New York City, but also in Washington, where a recent report commissioned by that city's police department shows blacks and Hispanics were stopped at significantly higher rates in two neighborhoods popular with tourists.
CLINTON NORMAN, RESIDENT OF WASHINGTON: They see a young black male with dreads, usually, they think I'm up to no good.
LOTHIAN: The police unions says there is no bias in stops and searches. But Northeastern University professor Jack McDevitt, who has studied claims of racial profiling in hundreds of cities, says the practice is still used across the country, despite official denials.
JACK MCDEVITT, PROFESSOR, NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY: What we do find is that there are some police officers who do it because they have -- they're biased and they have some prejudices. But, frequently -- much more frequently -- it's sort of the subconscious, that we react to stereotypes.
SHARPTON: Because I don't think all cops do it. I don't think even most do it. But those that do has poisoned the climate.
LOTHIAN (on camera): Does it make you angry?
DAVIS: Yes.
LOTHIAN (voice-over): Police fighting crime and accusations that, while on patrols, they aren't always colorblind.
Dan Lothian, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: My first guest tonight says it's no surprise that police are stopping more blacks than whites, because, based on descriptions by crime victims, police are 13 more times likely to be searching for a black suspect, rather than a white one.
Heather Mac Donald wrote that in an op-ed piece which appeared in today's "New York Daily News." She also happens to be the author of a book called, "Are Cops Racist? How the War Against the Police Harms Black Americans."
I also want to bring in tonight's "Out in the Open" panel into this discussion. With me tonight, Republican political strategist Amy Holmes, syndicated columnist Joel Mowbray -- did I say that right?
JOEL MOWBRAY, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Yes.
ZAHN: Mowbray. Yes! Yes!
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: And Roland Martin...
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: ... executive editor of "The Chicago Defender" newspaper.
I just wanted to make sure I -- I got it right off the top.
MOWBRAY: Two points for you.
ZAHN: All right. I need the two points.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: Heather, let's start with some of the statistics.
We know that some 85 percent of those stopped by New York cops were black or Hispanic. They make up less than half of the population. How do you defend those numbers?
HEATHER MAC DONALD, MANHATTAN INSTITUTE: Paula, the relevant benchmark is not population figures, but crime figures.
The ratio of crime in this country is disproportionately black and Hispanic. That's a sad fact, but a fact, it is, based on victim descriptions. Blacks are committing 70 percent of violent crimes in New York City. They're only being stopped 55 percent of the crime.
So, actually, the police are being -- are under-stopping blacks. And they're in minority neighborhoods to save lives and because law- abiding residents want them there. The stop-and-frisk mechanism is extraordinary powerful for bringing crime down. The police have saved 13,000 lives since the early '90s.
They're the best civil rights advocates that people have out in those low-income, high-crime communities.
ZAHN: All right.
MAC DONALD: Most people are not committing crime. But a certain segment are terrorizing law-abiding residents disproportionately. You cannot go after criminals and not have racial disproportionality.
ZAHN: I understand the numbers you have just crunched. But the police commissioner said he stopped people who were reasonably suspected of committing a crime.
All right, so, some 508,000 people, over a half-million people, were stopped, but it only resulted -- oh, my mike just dropped on the floor.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: ... in some 20,000 arrests. So, that means the cops got it wrong 95 percent of the time. Wouldn't that have resulted in more arrests, if what you are saying is true?
MAC DONALD: You can't expect them to only stop people that are guilty. They are going to be making inquiries about suspicious behavior. They're based on behavior. They're looking for, are you in a drug-infested neighborhood. Are you hitching up your waistband in a way that suggests you have got a gun.
They're trying to protect people. And you -- there's no way that they can only go after people that have guns. The fact is, this method has brought an enormous benefit to New York City, above all, to inner-city neighborhoods.
ZAHN: Are you going to tell me, if a white guy was walking around in one of those neighborhoods, and was suspiciously seen fishing his hands into his pockets, they -- they would have stopped him?
MAC DONALD: They're stopping whites at twice the rate of their crime commission in this city, Paula. So, obviously, that is going on.
They are looking for behavior. You can talk to cops, and they say: I don't care if you're green or purple or orange. If you're acting in a such a way to raise my suspicion, I'm going to stop you.
But, remember, given that violent crimes are committed at a 13- time higher rates than black -- by blacks than whites, the police are going to be looking for blacks 13 times more often than whites. They have got -- they have got victim identifications. You can't ask them to go look for whites just based on population numbers.
You can either have the police go after criminals, or you can have them base -- base their activity on population figures. And that's not going to fight crime.
ZAHN: Let's bring our panel into the discussion right now.
Roland has been rolling his eyes...
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: ... even laughing at some points, when -- when you were defending your case.
But, if -- if the majority of these crimes are committed by blacks, what is wrong with situational profiling?
ROLAND MARTIN, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, "THE CHICAGO DEFENDER": Well, first of all, it has to be based upon actual evidence.
Now, Heather, are you a cop?
MAC DONALD: I'm not a cop.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: You're not a cop, not. Have you ever been pulled over for racial profiling?
MAC DONALD: I -- I have not been pulled over for racial profiling.
MARTIN: Gotcha.
(CROSSTALK)
MAC DONALD: How do you know you have been pulled over for racial profiling?
MARTIN: Oh, guarantee you I have been pulled over. MAC DONALD: OK.
MARTIN: Now...
MAC DONALD: Well...
MARTIN: ... if the police commissioner said that they are being pulled over for reasonably -- reasonably being suspected of a crime, yet, you say, well, no, it's also a matter of suspicion, now, wait a minute.
He's the -- he's the police officer. He's the police chief. He's saying this. As Paula stated, 96 percent of the time, they're wrong, based upon the stops. How do you defend that?
Now, trust me, I get the whole issue of crime. But I don't want to be targeted because you had a vague description, and, because I'm black, I'm pulled over. There are men who are being pulled over several times a week just because they're black. They're taxpayers. They're going to work. They have families.
And, so, you're saying, hey, it's OK?
MAC DONALD: Roland, I'm not saying it's OK to racially profile. I'm not advocating racial profiling.
What I'm arguing is that they are not basing their stops on race. They're based on behavior, descriptions. There may be a -- a flood of officers in a neighborhood because they have had a high-profile crime. And they're going to be using quality of life.
They're in minority neighborhoods because that's where the crime is.
MARTIN: OK. I got that, because I lived in one.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: What about that, Amy?
AMY HOLMES, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: And that's what raises temperature, and that's what raises the friction on this issue.
But there's also...
ZAHN: I know. But are these cues useful? And are these things Heather is talking about justifiable?
HOLMES: Racial cues -- racial cues are not useful.
But the police commissioner is saying that 68 percent of those who are suspected of crimes are African-American. And, again, the stop-and-frisk rate is lower. There's another number that's cited, which is, the stop-and-frisk has gone up by five times. Now, complaints have gone up by two times. So, what does that tell you? There's a disparity there. So, there are far more frisks now then there were before...
MARTIN: But, Amy...
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: ... but, actually, a lower rate of complaints.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: There are a lot of African-Americans who, frankly -- who don't believe...
HOLMES: Of course.
MARTIN: ... that the police departments are going to follow up on those complaints.
There have been state legislators all across the state, all across the country who have said, they were trying to get police departments to change, saying, hey, you need to follow up on these complaints -- in Illinois, the same sort of complaint. So, you can't say, well, because it's gone up five-fold and only complaints have gone up twofold, that that says something.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: No.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: And you're not addressing the discrepancy on white stop- and-frisks, which are the twice the rate of white suspects in the community.
ZAHN: Let's -- let's add in another point into the discussion.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: We know that about one in nine cops is black.
MOWBRAY: OK.
ZAHN: Does that skew the way all of them on the street look at this issue...
MOWBRAY: Certainly, it skews that.
ZAHN: ... of who -- who looks suspicious to them and who doesn't?
MOWBRAY: But, you know, the stories in black communities of black officers feeling like they have to act tougher to get the respect of their peers, that's a phenomenon that has been chronicled in movies, for example, going back to "Boyz n the Hood" and stories that you can hear. I'm from Chicago. I hear that from friends, that they have gotten that.
Well, Roland, I mean, is that -- is that story -- stories you have not heard?
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: I have heard stories, but I certainly wouldn't use movies as a basis for trying to follow up with something.
MOWBRAY: Well, no, no.
I'm just -- I'm just saying, it's something -- it's something that's gotten to the level in the community...
(CROSSTALK)
MOWBRAY: ... that's talked about in the movies as well.
(CROSSTALK)
MOWBRAY: It's a reflection of the culture. Right.
MARTIN: We have seen that.
But we have also seen Lieutenant Jon Burge in Chicago, where they tortured black suspect over a period of 20 years.
The bottom line is this here. I -- I agree with police who are trying to stop crime. But what I am saying is, do not stop me because I'm black. And don't just simply say, well, it looks like he's carrying a gun. I pack two Treos and an iPod on my hip. It looks like I'm always carrying. So, please, don't pull me over because you think I may have committed a crime.
It's a matter of saying, wait a minute. If you're looking at a description, base it upon the description, when you have cases where people will say, I have been pulled over driving a car that was the wrong color, but I'm black.
ZAHN: All right. We have got to leave it there.
Heather Mac Donald, thank you...
MAC DONALD: Thank you, Paula.
ZAHN: ... for taking us all on tonight.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: Roland Martin, Amy Holmes, Joel Mowbray, please stay with us. We have got a lot more to discuss.
And we want to get on to another conversation as well. Send us a quick e-mail now at CNN.com. Our panelists will look them over. And we will share some of what you have to say a little bit later on.
Also out in the open: the deadly secrets of what it takes to be an ultra-thin fashion model. Some of this stuff is downright sick.
And, then, a little bit later on: at the other end of the spectrum, why Hollywood seems to be busy and making so much money off of making fun of overweight black women? Are movies like this offensive to you and to our panel?
Find out. Stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Tonight, we are peeling back the curtain and bringing out in the open the fashion world's dirty and sometimes deadly secret: anorexic models.
We, of course, are at the height of Fashion Week right here in New York City. That means gorgeous, stick-thin models strutting down runways, showing off the fashion industry's fall creations. It also means a lot of controversy over just how thin is too thin.
A New York City councilwoman is calling for a law banning super- thin models from the city's runways, much like the ban in another fashion capital, Milan, Italy.
But, so far, the fashion industry here is refusing to police itself with weight requirements.
Now out in the open: what it really takes to be model thin in an industry that demands it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATE DILLON, PLUS-SIZE MODEL: It is very secretive. People don't talk about it. There's no question that a lot is going on in Fashion Week. People are starving themselves, or they're purging, or they're doing more drugs, or they're doing some sort of bizarre treatment to suck water weight out of them.
ZAHN (voice-over): On most fashion runways, thin is not only in; it's a necessity.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's always been an industry that has -- that has valued thinness. And it's degrees of thinness. And I think we have reached a degree that's unattractive.
ZAHN: But when does too thin became dangerous, even deadly?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I see bones. I don't like the idea of a knee being the largest part of the body.
ZAHN: Just three months ago, Brazilian fashion model Ana Carolina Reston died of complications from anorexia.
Kate Dillon knows what it's like to be a 5-foot, 11-inch model who has had to fit into size zero designer clothes.
DILLON: I would go weeks without eating really anything, other than maybe an apple or, you know, tons and tons of coffee. And, then, I would have a day where I would actually feel really, really hungry, and I would eat maybe, you know, half a sandwich. And then I would feel so guilty about it that I would starve myself for another week.
ZAHN (on camera): What would be your daily routine...
DILLON: My...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: ... when you knew that your livelihood was dependent upon being stick-thin?
DILLON: Every day I would wake up, I would weigh myself. I would measure myself. I had this extremely regimented diet that I would -- I -- that would help me to maintain these numbers that I had in my head.
ZAHN: And what were those numbers?
DILLON: I remember reading in a magazine that Stephanie Seymour, who was a big model at the time, was 5'9'' and weighed 125 pounds. So, I thought, well, I'm 5'11''. I need to weigh 120 pounds. And, in my mind, being skinnier was being better.
ZAHN (voice-over): Even at her thinnest, Dillon says, she was told time and time again she was too big, too fat, and needed to lose even more weight.
DILLON: I would exercise obsessively. Or I would run up and down the stairs, or just do anything to try to sweat off some water weight, because, in fashion, there's nothing worse than showing up for a day of work and not fitting into the clothes. I mean, they just -- it's a completely shameful experience.
ZAHN (on camera): Well, at one point, you're surviving on 500 calories a day. What were some of the worst habits you were exposed to of women who were starving themselves?
DILLON: I wish I could say that my habits were the worst, but they -- they weren't. I mean, there were girls that used drugs, laxatives. There were girls that did binging and purging, which I never did. I was always very good at -- at -- at being very restrictive. And I was able to restrict my diet, and -- and exercise a lot.
And there were certain, you know, tricks that girls had, whether it was just taking a little bite of cheese, or not eating cheese at all, or -- you know, everybody had their little way of maintaining their really, really thin weight.
ZAHN (voice-over): At 117 pounds, her lowest weight, Kate says, she looked drawn and sickly, but, shockingly, she was still told to drop even more weight.
DILLON: I ran into this fashion editor. And I had been really sick. And he came up to me and said, "You look fabulous."
Here I was, I hadn't eaten in two weeks. And I had been really, really sick and smoking tons of cigarettes. And that is what was fabulous to him.
ZAHN (on camera): How did that make you feel? Disgusted?
DILLON: It made me feel disgusted, and it made me feel acutely aware of the fact that here I was, someone who was working so hard to create an illusion, that I couldn't even live up to myself. And I remember thinking, I don't really want to be a part of this machine anymore. Nobody fits this illusion. And we work so hard to create it, and I'm killing myself to create it.
And -- and it was not healthy for me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: The people running New York Fashion Week are considering some guidelines, recommending teaching models about nutrition and eating disorders. But those would only be guidelines.
And, when fashion icon Diane Von Furstenberg was asked if models will ever have to weigh in at New York Fashion Week, she responded by saying -- quote -- "Over my dead body."
Back to our "out in the Open" panel, Roland Martin, Amy Holmes, Joel Mowbray.
Welcome back.
HOLMES: Thank you.
MOWBRAY: Thank you.
ZAHN: All right.
So, we also know Betsey Johnson, the designer with the great hair, said that she could never see these models being weighed in, like jockeys before a horse race.
So, at the end of the day, you don't seem to have anybody embracing these weight requirements.
Do you think it will ever happen?
MARTIN: I doubt it will happen, unless they are forced to by either city councils, state governments, or the federal government.
And there must -- there -- there should be some kind of oversight, because these women are, indeed, killing themselves. This is unhealthy. And, so, for her to say, "Over my dead body," well, guess what? There are two models who are dead as a result of the weight requirement. And, so, she should have a bit more compassion, because the industry is forcing this to take place, not necessarily the women.
ZAHN: And, when we talk about the industry, who to blame here? The agencies, the photographers, the model themselves?
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: They, after all, know what they're getting into...
HOLMES: Right.
ZAHN: ... when they dive into this business.
HOLMES: They seem to keep pointing their fingers. Donna Karan said it was the agencies. The agencies say it's the designers.
I don't think that anyone can...
MOWBRAY: It's -- it's the culture that has reached the tipping point within the industry. It happened years ago.
But, remember, it didn't used to be this way. Bettie Page and the early pinup models were very curvy, right? And then you get into the days of Twiggy. And then you get stick-thin models through the '70s and into the '80s.
But, even now, I mean, you know, the fact that Tyra Banks -- you know, Amy and I were discussing this off the air. She was thin when she started, but she -- as she moved to more commercial work, she definitely filled -- you know, filled out to a more normal shape and size.
ZAHN: Yes. And some people are saying that's wrong. She's been blasted and embarrassed by the new pictures of her on the beach.
MOWBRAY: Well, yes, but you know what? She stood us for herself very well on "LARRY KING LIVE." And -- and I thought that that was -- I thought it was helpful and positive, that she did that.
She came out. This is a woman who is a sex symbol to -- to men and to women. And the fact that she came out and defended her size, and didn't apologize for it, I thought, was a very good thing. It was a positive thing.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: The truth is...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: She was still fine at...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: She was still fine at 160 pounds. ZAHN: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: But, Paula, we also have to broaden this in a bit.
And that is, the NFL has dealt with this issue as well. HBO, with -- with Bryant Gumbel, they did a piece dealing with Frank Warren, of the New Saints, who was -- who felt that he was forced to maintain a larger weight.
When he retired, he had all kind of health problems, and eventually died of a heart attack -- other players as well. So, beyond modeling, this also is an issue in football. It's an issue in horse racing. And, because it is a health issue, we should not look at this as a financial issue. We should look at this simply as a health issue, as it relates to a particular job. And there should be some kind of action taken.
(CROSSTALK)
MOWBRAY: ... how do you deal with it? How do you deal with it? Because you are talking about governmental action.
And I don't know about you, but I don't think a bunch of pencil- pusher bureaucrats are going to be the ones who are going to decide this the best. Societal pressure, having the media come out talking about these things, having new ideas being accepted as -- as the new conventional wisdom, one that actually comes as the result of debate and discussion, that is where you are going to find a better result.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: And may I also jump in?
The consumer -- and the real problem, actually, that's happening, in terms of America and weight, is not weight loss, but weight gain, that, for -- among American teens, weight -- overweight has -- obesity has quadrupled in the last 25 years.
So, I think, as you see the consumers' frame diverging further and further away from what you see on the runway, they have got to sell their clothes to somebody. And those women...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Most of them are not wearing a size zero, though.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
MOWBRAY: This is a -- this is a very small community. And it's insular.
It isn't that -- that typical teenagers can name fashion runway models. They can name commercial models.
HOLMES: Oh, sure they can. Sure...
(CROSSTALK)
MOWBRAY: Well, maybe. OK, maybe some.
But I think these -- these are -- it's smaller subset of people. And, so, they have come to this idea. And the -- the excuse I have heard from fashion designers is, well, you know, the less there is of the woman, the more focus there is on the clothes.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: But -- Joe, but wait a minute.
But there are women who are looking at these models. And they're -- these young girls are saying, I want to be like that, just like you have athletes who are in junior high and high school, saying...
MOWBRAY: Right.
MARTIN: ... I need to be bigger and stronger, like the guys in the NFL.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: People are looking at that.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Quick final thought.
HOLMES: Yet, studies have shown, actually, girls who look at women's magazines are no more likely to be anorexic than girls that don't. As I said before...
ZAHN: I wish I believed that.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Looking at all these adolescents out there that are fighting anorexia...
MARTIN: Precisely. Precisely.
ZAHN: ... it's hard to believe that they aren't being penetrated by these glossy images they're seeing on these magazine covers.
Thank you, all.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Stand by. We have got more to talk with you about, as we continue to bring more issues out into the open tonight.
We want us to e-mail us now at NOW@CNN.com. Our panel will weigh in your thoughts a little bit later on.
Another story we're bringing out into the open seems harmless at first glance, but is Hollywood's new string of movies making fun of pushy, obese black woman really a laughing matter, or is Hollywood's intolerance right out in the open?
But next: What did my Headline Prime colleague Glenn Beck mean when he said this to someone on his show?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "GLENN BECK")
GLENN BECK, HOST, "GLENN BECK": I don't have a lot of African- American friends.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: What the heck does that mean? Glenn Beck joins me with an explanation -- when we come back.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: We would love for you to join the conversation on some of the subjects we're bringing out into the open tonight.
Our panelists are already looking over some of your e-mails right now. They're hard at work. Send yours to NOW@CNN.com. And we will try to get as many of them as we can on the air tonight.
Tonight, NASA is promising to review its psychological screening process, after the bizarre arrest of astronaut Lisa Nowak. Nowak arrived in Texas today, hiding her face, as you can see, as she got off this plane, after being let out on bail in Florida.
Her story has been in the headlines nonstop since her cross- country journey that police say led to her assault on a woman Nowak thought was a romantic rival.
And that story is just one thing on the mind of Headline Prime's Glenn Beck, who joins us now for his weekly visit.
BECK: Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: You weren't laughing at her hiding her face on that plane?
BECK: No. I am actually -- no, I was actually laughing at the fact that we don't test our astronauts.
I would think that we would be poking them with sticks and finding out if they're mentally sound. She may not have been tested for 10 years on mental stability. Wasn't she just in space with a bunch of people from all different countries and an airlock door?
ZAHN: Absolutely.
(LAUGHTER)
BECK: I mean, don't you think we should test these people, make sure they're OK?
ZAHN: Well, NASA made it very clear today, as a result of all this controversy...
BECK: Yes.
ZAHN: ... they're reviewing that policy.
I -- I know you're pretty upset.
BECK: I hope we're calling -- if we have them in space now, I hope we're calling them on a phone and just doing a phone chat.
ZAHN: Like every year or so?
BECK: Like, hey, how are you feeling?
(LAUGHTER)
BECK: You know? Let's make sure they're OK.
ZAHN: You are pretty upset she's out on bail.
BECK: I think she's...
ZAHN: Why?
BECK: I think she's...
ZAHN: What -- what kind of risk does she present? She has a little...
BECK: I think she presents...
ZAHN: ... global positioning ankle bracelet on, or -- you know.
BECK: I think she presents a risk to herself. I don't know.
I mean, I think we should at least have her stop by the hospital, you know, before we release her.
ZAHN: Now, Glenn, on to the issue of some hot water you got yourself into again Monday night on your show...
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: No.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: ... when you were talking with conservative Shelby Steele about matters of race.
Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "GLENN BECK")
BECK: I don't have a lot of African-American friends, and I think part of it is because I'm afraid that I would be in an open conversation, and I would say something that somebody would take wrong, and then it would be a nightmare.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: So, did Shelby Steele think you were a racist for saying that?
BECK: No. Thought I was right.
ZAHN: What did he say?
BECK: I'm paraphrasing here. I don't mean to speak for him. And I'm I'm paraphrasing the conversation -- that a lot of people feel that way, because we have -- we have positioned ourselves in such a place to where, we're so politically correct, we're afraid to say anything.
You know, right after this, we were talking and my producer says in my headset -- he said, what are you thinking? And I said, I'm being honest. I'm just being honest. Why in America can you not be honest anymore?
And he said, do you know how much trouble you're going to get for that? And I said, I don't care, I'm being honest. We've isolated ourselves in little teeny groups, all the way from left, right, to straight, gay, black, white, you name it, everybody is in a little group. And we have been pounded on so hard that we have to be politically correct that I think we're afraid to say anything to each other. I don't want to offend people.
ZAHN: But, Glenn...
BECK: We're different.
ZAHN: ... you can't tell me that you don't have African-American friends just because you're ...
BECK: I didn't say that.
ZAHN: ... afraid of insulting them by saying the wrong thing.
BECK: No, no, no. Didn't say that.
ZAHN: So are you comfortable with minorities?
BECK: Absolutely comfortable, to a certain extent. We've been so conditioned -- blacks have been conditioned that the white man is a bad guy, yadda, yadda, yadda. Whites have been conditioned, you had better shut up and keep your mouth shut or, you know, you're going to be sued or whatever. ZAHN: So we're automatically, you say, stigmatized.
BECK: We're guarded. We're guarded and stigmatized. And that's a mistake. Because it separates us. We've got to feel totally comfortable to be stupid in front of each other.
Glenn Beck, thanks. Appreciate it.
Hollywood is getting a lot of laughs by making fun of pushy, overweight black women. Is there anything wrong with that, or are movies like Eddie Murphy's latest comedy actually offensive, degrading and humiliating?
We're also bringing a health crisis facing the black community out in the open. In spite of a urgent need, why aren't there enough bone marrow donors?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: There is an explosive new controversy over sex and race coming Out in the Open and it involves one of the Hollywood's most popular black stars. It struck us when we saw these ads for "Norbit," the Eddie Murphy comedy opening this Friday. And some people are outraged at its portrayal of a pushy, overweight black woman.
We asked entertainment correspondent Sibila Vargas to show us why.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JENICE ARMSTRONG, PHILADELPHIA DAILY NEWS: Frankly I'm perplexed as well as horrified.
SIBILA VARGAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jenice Armstrong is mad as hell. The object of her outrage, Eddie Murphy's upcoming movie, "Norbit."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "NORBIT")
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Excuse me, ma'am, we have a 300-pound weight limit.
EDDIE MURPHY, ACTOR: I don't weigh no damn 300 pounds! I weigh 165! (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARMSTRONG: Think about who this movie is making fun of, it is black women, fat black women.
VARGAS: In the comedy, Murphy plays several characters, including an overweight, overbearing woman, who makes Norbit, also played by Murphy, the target of her affection.
The movie's billboard even features Norbit being squished by a larger than life character with these words above their heads: "Have you ever made a really big mistake?"
Some might find it funny, but Armstrong, a columnist for The Philadelphia Daily News, isn't laughing. She says it's a stereotype perpetuated for far too long.
ARMSTRONG: It kind of goes back to the 19th Century minstrel shows where people used to dress up in blackface and the black woman was always overweight with, usually her hair tied up in a rag. She was sassy and emasculating the black man. That's an old, old image that we've had with us for -- you know, it goes back to slavery times. You know, "Gone With the Wind," Mammy.
VARGAS (on camera): "Norbit" isn't the only flick that uses plus-size outspoken black women as punch lines. Two other prominent African-American stars have made millions playing these types of characters.
(voice-over): Martin Lawrence, who donned a fat suit in "Big Mama's House" and "Big Mama's House 2." And Tyler Perry as the fast- talking and elderly Madea in "Diary of a Mad Black Woman" and "Madea's Family Reunion."
But Perry says it's more about appreciation than condemnation.
TYLER PERRY, PRODUCER, DIRECTOR & ACTOR: I think it has been the biggest form of absolute flattery to imitate our woman. My mother was a big woman. And her mother was a big woman. And all we're doing is mimicking what we've seen and what we know to be that was so hilarious in our household.
VARGAS: Perry says these characters are just a reflection of some people in the black community that he feels he shouldn't have to apologize for.
PERRY: I know a couple of women who are taller than I am and who are heavier than I am. What is the big deal? Relax people. It's not that big a deal. I mean, we are just having fun with what we know to be our lives, period.
VARGAS: Sibila Vargas, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: The image of the bossy plus-sized black woman also exists on the small screen, as in these TV commercials for Pine-Sol. Diane Amos plays the Pine Sol lady, and she joins us tonight from San Francisco.
Thanks for being with us tonight.
DIANE AMOS, ACTOR: My pleasure.
ZAHN: We wanted to start off by having you look at the promotional poster for "Norbit" along with us tonight. Many folks in our audience seeing this for the very first time. Does it offend you that Hollywood seems to think that black women of a certain size are worth laughing at?
AMOS: Well, you know, I understand funny because I'm a comedian. And extremes are funny. Extremely fat, extremely skinny, that's funny. But what I guess I'm really hoping for is the balance. If you choose to characterize us like that, you know, give us some other roles, give us roles where we're successful black women who have men.
I'm telling you now, I have never run through a bench or hit a man on the head to get him to be with me. It hasn't happened. They might run over something to get to me. But I have not had to do that. And so when I see that, I'm like, oh, come on, give us the other side too.
ZAHN: Well, some black leaders, as you know, in Los Angeles, are so upset about this. They're calling on Eddie Murphy to make an apology. And let me show what they're saying on a poster. "Eddie Murphy's billboard disrespects black women and continues to perpetuate negative stereotypical images that large black women are sexually aggressive, unattractive, violent and promiscuous. And have to have this ad campaign unveiled during Black History Month is a slap in our face."
So without that balance, do you find this humiliating?
AMOS: Well, you know, it is. It's the kind of thing that doesn't portray us in the full way that we are. And I do mean full. Because if you're going to give us the full figure thing, and we're pushy, we're this and we're that, well, make us pushy in others areas. Aren't we pushy business woman so that we can get something done? And maybe we can push our employees to be better workers. Or maybe we can push our children to be great people. Maybe you just should just go ahead and let pushy be pushy. And instead of just showing us as pushy and, you know, so over the top, give us some roles that are sincere to who we are also in this world.
We are great nurturers in this world and we are wonderful business women. We are wives and we have handsome men, my man included. And I did not have to hit him over the head to get him.
ZAHN: And he is going to be very happy with you tonight after all the generous things you've said about him.
AMOS: Of course.
ZAHN: But you're a comedian. You understand fat humor, don't you? But...
AMOS: I do. I do.
ZAHN: ... is there anything funny about a black man, such as Eddie Murphy, playing a fat black woman in a fat suit?
AMOS: Well, you know, it has been done a whole lot, and there is some of it that is funny. And my complaint is not that it can't be funny, my complaint is just that that is all there is. So this is Eddie Murphy's -- you know, this is his poetic license. He is a wonderful actor and he does great characters. I'm not going to deny that or take that away.
On the other hand, maybe he should -- what about a movie where there's a man who actually loves a large woman and who really has to face what that means and be supportive. And show us on the other side of, if you love us, love us all the way around, don't just love us over the top. Love us in the middle and love us where we are in this world. And lot of us black women walk through this world with a lot of grace in our bodies.
And I think that's really the issue. It's like, don't just make fun. Make it real at some point.
ZAHN: You just might make that happen, Diane Amos.
AMOS: I'm working on it.
ZAHN: All right.
AMOS: Tyler Perry, I'm here for you.
ZAHN: OK. Thank you very much. Really appreciate your time tonight.
AMOS: Thank you.
ZAHN: I'm going to discuss this with our "Out in the Open" panel in just a minute. And to join the conversation on any of the subjects we've brought "Out in the Open" tonight, please send us an e-mail to our panelists. They're checking some of them out right now. The address is now@cnn.com. We'll read them coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: We are "Out in the Open" tonight with comedies like Eddie Murphy's new film "Norbit." Some say Hollywood is exploiting the stereotype of the large outspoken black woman just to make a buck. Let's bring back our "Out in the Open" panel, Roland Martin, Amy Holmes, Joel Mowbray.
Are you insulted by this film?
HOLMES: You know, I'm not...
ZAHN: As a thin, gorgeous black woman.
HOLMES: Well, I'm not a big fan of cheap laughs at racial stereotypes. With this type of humor, we were just discussing it before we came on, is in the old tradition -- old comic tradition of men in drag. We saw it in "Some Like It Hot." Milton Berle got a lot of laughs out of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Flip Wilson.
HOLMES: Exactly. What I've read about this movie is that it is chock full of racial stereotypes. We have a Mr. Wong, who is the Chinese restaurant owner. There's another comic playing a retired pimp. I think probably the biggest offense of this movie is that it's just not funny.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, remember, in Hollywood the biggest...
ZAHN: But America will think it's funny. You know this movie is going to do well.
HOLMES: Well, "Big Mama's House" did make $70 million.
MOWBRAY: The lowest common denominator...
MARTIN: Actually, that was number two. The first one made $120 million. So they liked it.
MOWBRAY: Oh, with "Big Mama's House." Yes, absolutely.
ZAHN: It tells you America thinks that stuff is funny. So are we taking this too seriously?
MARTIN: Well, first of all, this is not the first movie that Eddie Murphy has played a large-sized woman. He also did it in "The Nutty Professor" where he also played a large-sized man in that film. Eddie is not a big guy. But also, think about it in a broader aspect. We make fun of big people in movies. "Varsity Blues," the fat guy who was the lineman. Of course, "Deuce Bigelow," the real tall woman. And so we are used to laughing at people like that. And so it is not just black, we also see it with white characters as well.
ZAHN: Here's where we heard from a viewer about our Hollywood story tonight. She writes: "It's really sad that Eddie Murphy, Martin Lawrence, Jamie Foxx, have capitalized on ridiculing overweight black women. I've watched their movies, laughed, but I've always wondered how overweight black women felt at seeing themselves portrayed as sex- crazed, overbearing, dimwitted women. Thanks, Paula, for bringing this out in the open/
Obviously some people are outraged by this.
MOWBRAY: You know, maybe, but you know, black women tend to have more confidence. You know, they have done studies on this stuff, scientific surveys. And black women, especially, you know, plus-sized black women have more confidence than similarly-sized white women.
And by the way, in the black community, you will find, as the guest you had on said, and it is very true, I can point to a number of black friends of mine, I have one friend in particular who has had, you know, several overweight or...
MARTIN: You have black friends?
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Don't let Glenn Beck find out now.
MOWBRAY: Oh, yes. I know, I know.
(CROSSTALK) MOWBRAY: Of course I can. Of course I can. You know, they insult me much more often than I insult them. And I'm a very insulting person, I'll have you know.
HOLMES: Right, but getting back to the Pine-Sol actress, and I'm sorry, I don't remember her name...
ZAHN: Diane Amos.
HOLMES: Diane, I think the salient point here is that we don't see ourselves represented in other ways. You know, before Halle Berry got an Oscar, she was in "B*A*P*S." I mean, let's remember that. And another I think tragedy for Eddie Murphy is that this is coming out when he's up for an Oscar for a really, truly fantastic character that he played in "Dreamgirls."
ZAHN: Yes, well, someone has got to pay the bills.
MARTIN: And don't forget, actress Mo'Nique. She made the movie "Phat Girlz." She's proud of being a big sister. So she represents for the big sisters all across the country.
ZAHN: I'll read an e-mail from a woman called Ecola (ph): "As the mother of the 16-year-old daughter," she writes, "suffering from an eating disorder, I'd like to correct your panelists who suggest that teenage girls aren't influenced by fashion magazines. Until we stop the parade of skeletal, near-death models on the runways and Hollywood representations of the same, we're in danger of losing more of our children to this devastating disorder."
She is dissing you, Amy, because you were saying studies showed that in fact young girls weren't as impacted as much as they thought we were. I don't buy that at all, I've got to tell you.
HOLMES: Well, that the rates of anorexia among girls. And anorexia, we have discovered, is a serious psychological problem. It takes a team, a battery of doctors. It's one of the most intractable health problems that girls face. I'm not saying that fashion magazines don't influence women's ideas of beauty, but in terms of really serious health-threatening behavior.
ZAHN: The final one from you (INAUDIBLE) from Tony (ph). He writes: "As a black man living in Atlanta, I can honestly say that I understand why the police would stop some of us more often than others. I can also say that sometimes I myself am afraid of what black guys will do as I walk down unfamiliar streets. We as blacks should stop acting like the thugs they think we are."
MARTIN: First of all, he's right. You do fight crime but do not target me as a law-abiding African-American simply because somebody else committed a crime. Have a real reason to stop me. Don't frisk me just because I'm black.
ZAHN: OK, panel, we've got to leave it there. You had a lot of territory to cover tonight.
MOWBRAY: Still have plenty of other things left to say.
ZAHN: We went through fat to skinny, black and white, we got it all here.
MARTIN: Hey, talk to those black friends of yours.
(LAUGHTER)
MOWBRAY: I'll see if I can think of something non-offensive to say.
ZAHN: Is he still your friend because he didn't call you articulate tonight?
MARTIN: Oh, please, well, you don't want to go there.
(CROSSTALK)
MOWBRAY: You're so well-spoken, Roland.
MARTIN: Yes, thank you, thank you. I think my parents would be very proud.
(CROSSTALK)
MOWBRAY: That's the worst thing. And by the way, white people, do not say to someone who is black, you're so well-spoken. It is the worst. It is the worst.
MARTIN: Those 300 books this summer, they made a difference during the year.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: It does drive me crazy. But it's not as bad as, did you play football? It is not as bad.
ZAHN: I never asked you that. still think you're pretty smart, though, Roland.
MARTIN: Well, you know, I think my mom and dad did a good job.
ZAHN: Yes, I think they did too. Roland, Martin, Amy Holmes, Joel Mowbray.
MARTIN: They beat it into us.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: Yes. Sometimes you have got to get the message to those kids. As a mother of three, I understand.
MARTIN: That's right.
ZAHN: We're going to take a quick biz break right now. The Dow ended the day almost unchanged. Tech stocks boosted the Nasdaq by 19 points. The S&P gained 2. Consumers added a $6 billion to their credit card bills in December, but that increase in borrowing in only a modest 3 percent. And Wal-Mart and the 1.8 million member Service Employees Union joined forces today calling for affordable health care for all Americans by the year 2012.
We are about to bring a health crisis "Out in the Open." African- American cancer patients are dying because people won't donate bone marrow. Coming up next, why there may be so much hesitation. We'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: "Out in the Open" tonight, a tragic difference between white Americans and black Americans. The difference is the number of blacks willing to donate life-saving bone marrow. And it's costing lives in the black community. Medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen has tonight's "Vital Signs."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These cancer patients are waiting, waiting for bone marrow transplants, a procedure that could save their lives. They will most likely wait longer for matching donors than white people. Is the American health care system racist? Actually, the reason is something that doesn't get talked about a lot.
(on camera): African-American donation rates are low.
JESSICA PASLEY, MOTHER: Low, low, low. It makes me angry, frustrated and actually sad. Because I think I take it personally.
COHEN (voice-over): African-Americans usually need an African- American to donate bone marrow for genetic reasons. But there is a shortage of black donors. Bone marrow is the soft material at the center of the bone. It's where blood cells are made. A transplant replaces a patient's diseased marrow with a donor's healthy marrow when people have diseases like leukemia, sickle-cell anemia and breast cancer.
Jessica Pasley and her husband had to search for bone marrow for their identical twin daughters, Jillian (ph) and Jade (ph), both have leukemia.
PASLEY: We went to black churches. We sought the help of black organizations.
COHEN (on camera): And did they come through?
PASLEY: No, not really.
COHEN (voice-over): Jessica says they do a drive at a black church and about 100 people, while a drive at a nearby white church would get 1,500 people. The Pasleys did finally find a match for Jillian, who is in remission. But by the time they found a match for Jade, it was too late. She died when she was two. (on camera): Do you feel like your own community has let you down?
PASLEY: I feel that my own community is letting itself down. I might be overstepping my bounds here but I feel like, are we killing ourselves with not helping each other?
COHEN: Do you think you are?
PASLEY: Ask all the people whose loved ones have died because there was nobody there to help them.
COHEN (voice-over): Jessica wondered why donor rates are so low. Her grandmother told her, Tuskegee. From 1932 to 1972 doctors in Alabama purposely withheld treatment from black men with syphilis, and black mistrust in the medical system still exists today.
Harriet Washington is author of the book "Medical Apartheid." She sees another reason, black people overall don't get as good medical care as whites.
HARRIET WASHINGTON, AUTHOR, "MEDICAL APARTHEID": The resentment and distrust that it fosters drives a wedge between African-Americans in all kinds of interaction with the health care system.
PASLEY: Did he even try to explain this to you guys?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
COHEN: Whatever the reason, Jessica says it's time for African- Americans to step up to the plate and volunteer to donate bone marrow.
PASLEY: There's got to be a time when you say, move forward, move on to help your own.
COHEN: Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Nashville, Tennessee.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: There is one thing that may encourage more people to register to donate bone marrow, is that in most cases you don't have to go through a blood test anymore to do it. And if you want to know more about that, go to marrow.org.
We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us here tonight. Tomorrow night, you've sent us thousands of angry e-mails about our segment on discrimination of atheists. It is one of the most controversial subjects we've ever brought "Out in the Open." Tonight we're going to have more of that -- on that, including probably one of the most famous atheists in the world, Richard Dawkins.
We're going to take a very short break. In just about five seconds from now, you'll see "LARRY KING LIVE." Until then, have a great night. Good night.
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