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Paula Zahn Now
America's Mortgage Meltdown; Preaching Sex
Aired March 22, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: And thank you all for joining us.
Out in the open tonight: why millions of Americans could lose their home. You could be one of them.
A minister's message about your sex life is out in the open tonight. But is getting people into his church making them any happier in bed?
And one state wants to tell women, before you have an abortion, you have to take a good look at your unborn fetus first.
Out in the open first: a consumer crisis that is costing you a whole lot of money. It's already so bad that it is knocking down stock prices and your retirement savings. But it could get a whole lot worse.
Just today, there's a warning that some two million families -- that's right, two million -- are in danger of losing their homes. They took out mortgages they can't afford anymore, so called subprime mortgages made by lenders that don't have to obey strict government rules.
So, who let it happen?
Well, CNN's personal finance editor, Gerri Willis, went to Capitol Hill to find out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GERRI WILLIS, CNN PERSONAL FINANCE EDITOR (voice-over): After months of meltdown in the subprime mortgage sector, finally, Capitol Hill takes notice.
Out of the estimated $1.28 trillion borrowed in what are called sub loans, the Mortgage Bankers Association reports that late payments are running close to 15 percent, and foreclosures are reaching record levels. More and more poor Americans are losing their homes. And the uncertainty is shaking the entire American economy.
SEN. ROBERT MENENDEZ (D), NEW JERSEY: The size of this problem that we have heard defined here already leads me to question, regardless of everything that you're telling me, how could it be this big and you have done your job?
The Senate Housing Banking and Urban Affairs Committee summoned federal regulators and top executives from the mortgage industry to Washington today.
SEN. MEL MARTINEZ (R-FL), REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE GENERAL CHAIRMAN: How can we really, as bank regulators, have allowed so many loans to be made which are obviously not designed to be performing loans in 60 days, a year or two?
WILLIS: Their goal: find out why so many people with less-than- ideal credit could get their hands on mortgages they couldn't afford, subprime mortgages. These are loans that carry higher interest rates, interest rates that keep going up after relatively short initial terms.
Subprime loans are legal and helped fuel the U.S. housing boom over the past few years, but:
SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A study done by the Center for Responsible Lending estimates -- estimates that up to 2.2 million families with subprime loans could lose their homes, at a cost of some $164 billion in lost home equity.
WILLIS: Defaults have already forced one major lending company, New Century, to all but shut down. And the better-known Countrywide Corporation says its subprime mortgage defaults may be the worst on record.
But a Countrywide exec says his company is working on programs to avoid foreclosures. And he's concerned about being reined in.
SANDOR SAMUELS, SENIOR MANAGING DIRECTOR, CHIEF LEGAL OFFICER & ASSISTANT SECRETARY, COUNTRYWIDE FINANCIAL CORPORATION: What I'm asking is that this committee and our regulators be careful about an overcorrection, because we want to make sure that we keep homeownership a viable opportunity for those Americans who can qualify for it.
WILLIS: Connecticut Senator Christopher Dodd chairs the committee, and he blames predatory lenders, rogue brokers and bankers who target those who can least afford high interest rates. Dodd says he's planning legislation on predatory lending.
DODD: Frankly, the fact that any reputable banker or lender would make these kinds of loans so widely available to wage earners, to elderly families on fixed incomes, or the lower-income, unsophisticated borrowers strikes me as unconscionable and deceptive.
WILLIS: Dodd is running for president. And he's not the only candidate with a subprime plan. Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and Dennis Kucinich all have Oval Office aspirations, and all have similar solutions for the mortgage meltdown.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: So, Gerri, once you try to remove the politics from all of this, how serious of a problem is it?
WILLIS: It's a very serious problem, Paula. I don't think people realize to the degree to which people across this country have subprime loans. In fact, 10 percent of all mortgage debt is subprime loans. It's affecting a lot of people, not just those who hold them, but people who have better credit and are trying to get loans now, and having a problem.
ZAHN: And is there the potential that, if this continues its downward spiral, that the economy could actually go into a recession because of these defaults?
WILLIS: Short answer is yes. There's a growing minority of economists who say this could push us into recession -- the reason, you have not only all these subprime mortgages out there, but lenders are tightening their lending standards. They're making it more difficult for consumers to get loan -- loans.
And, as you know, consumers are responsible for two-thirds of economic spending. You pull the consumers out, if they're not spending money, the economy goes south.
ZAHN: Gerri, please don't go away. We are going to come back to you in just a little bit.
But now you're probably asking yourself out there, so, who are these people who got in so far over their heads?
We sent our Deborah Feyerick to find some typical cases. And they could be you or perhaps even your next-door neighbors.
Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARLEVIA TAYLOR, HOMEOWNER: Whoa. This is where I want to live. This is it.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There are a few things you should know about Arlevia Taylor. She's 63 years old, divorced, and lives on a fixed income.
TAYLOR: Oh, this is my house. I want it.
FEYERICK: So, when someone called promising she could lower her monthly mortgage payments and get a huge payout, she jumped at the chance.
TAYLOR: Well, I was hoping that I would get enough money to redo my kitchen floor, and have enough money in savings to -- to do other little things around the house.
FEYERICK: But that isn't what happened. After the closing and all the fees, she got barely $2,000, a lot less than the $15,000 she says she was promised. And that low fixed rate of 6.9 percent, it was fixed for only two years.
(on camera): So, you get this in the mail. It says, this adjustment increases your monthly payment by approximately $250. Where is that $250 coming from?
TAYLOR: I'm not going to have it.
FEYERICK (voice-over): Then how did Arlevia Taylor get the loan in the first place? Easy. She qualified based on the lower rate, not the rate she would have to pay later, a full 3 percentage points higher.
(on camera): The companies are going to say, we are giving these people an opportunity to get money that they wouldn't have ordinarily.
BILL BRENNAN, LEGAL AID ATTORNEY: What a joke to say that. They're giving them a chance to swallow poison that will kill them.
FEYERICK: Legal aid lawyer Bill Brennan represents Taylor and thousands like her in the Atlanta area who got loans they can't possibly repay. He says Taylor, like many others, was targeted by lenders because she fits several categories: elderly, African- American, lower fixed income, and a woman.
Janice Harris (ph) also fits that profile. A widow who struggles to live on $700 a month, she has refinanced her mortgage twice. And the interest keeps going up.
(on camera): You pay $16,000 30 years ago, and now you owe more than $100,000 in the form of a loan?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
FEYERICK: Is that a little crazy to you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it is crazy. It don't make sense to me.
BRENNAN: You're told you're eligible. We wouldn't make you the loan unless you're eligible.
They're not eligible. That's ridiculous. They're not eligible for this loan.
FEYERICK (voice-over): In the last few years, the number of people losing their homes has skyrocketed. In 2006, there were 1.2 million foreclosures, up 42 percent from the year before.
BRENNAN: Here is the foreclosure listings...
(CROSSTALK)
BRENNAN: ... for one month for the Atlanta area.
FEYERICK (on camera): These are all foreclosures?
BRENNAN: Yes.
FEYERICK: This is unbelievable.
BRENNAN: It's a phone book.
FEYERICK: It's a phone book.
BRENNAN: And look at the dates of the loan. This just drives me crazy: ARM of '04, conventionals, '06, '06, '06.
(CROSSTALK)
BRENNAN: How can there be so many loans in the last two years that are now in foreclosure? What does that tell you? They're lending to people who can't afford to pay.
FEYERICK: I mean, this is page after page after page of heartbreak.
BRENNAN: That's right.
FEYERICK (voice-over): The scariest part, says mortgage expert Robert Manning, with interest rates about to go up on more than $1 trillion in mortgages, that could devastate the U.S. economy.
ROBERT MANNING, AUTHOR, "CREDIT CARD NATION": We're going to see millions of Americans who are going to find homeownership pushing them into bankruptcy and really questioning the nature of the American dream.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just thought I could pay it. That's what was in my mind. I thought I could -- I could I just handle it. And I couldn't.
FEYERICK: Deborah Feyerick, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: So, Deborah just mentioned what this could mean down the road.
So, our question is, just how bad is the mortgage meltdown going to get? And what should you do if you're in trouble? We have some answers for you coming up.
And, then, a little bit later on: Would the promise of a better sex life get you into church? We're going to bring one preacher's sales pitch out in the open tonight. And he is filling up the pews.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Out in the open tonight: the coming coast-to-coast crisis, millions of Americans who will lose their homes because they can't make their mortgage payments. What if you're one of them?
Let's go back to our personal finance editor, Gerri Willis. She will eventually join us from Washington.
But, first, let's check in with "Barron's" magazine associate editor Michael Santoli. Good to have you with us tonight.
MICHAEL SANTOLI, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, "BARRON'S": Thank you very much, Paula.
ZAHN: You heard those stories Deborah Feyerick and Gerri Willis. And they're heartbreaking.
SANTOLI: Yes.
ZAHN: You see these 60-year-old women who have worked most of their lives. They were given these loans. They're defaulting on them now.
But whose fault is it? It's hard not to feel sorry for these people.
SANTOLI: Without a doubt. And there's plenty of fault or plenty of blame to go around.
But I think the way to think about it is, the big-picture conditions, low interest rates, housing prices seeming like they were going to do nothing but go up for a long time, enabled the lending industry to make it very easy for people to make bad decisions. And a lot of that went on.
And, so, both sides really had a part in it. But I do think that the fallout is going to take a while to work through the system.
ZAHN: Now, from what I understand, a lot of people have these subprime mortgages, and they don't even know it...
SANTOLI: Sure.
ZAHN: ... because of how complicated their contracts are.
So, if someone at home wants to find out that that's, in fact, what they have...
SANTOLI: Sure.
ZAHN: ... we're going to put a graphic up on the screen, which is going to help them track what they need to look for.
SANTOLI: Sure.
ZAHN: So, help us understand where it says adjustable-rate mortgage...
SANTOLI: Yes.
ZAHN: ... and -- and this other year marker of this two-year marker.
SANTOLI: Exactly. Adjustable-rate mortgage means, essentially, you got a low introductory rate. It's going to be adjusted higher after a certain period of time. And the big problem here is, if you took out one of these adjustable-rate mortgages, and you could barely afford that initial mortgage payment, that's your problem, because if you basically did not have the flexibility to, when this rate adjusts higher, your mortgage payment goes up automatically.
It's, basically, essentially, you were given a bargain up front, and it ceases to be a bargain after a little while. Now, subprime, I will point out, also has to do with the credit worthiness of the buyer, in part. So, you wouldn't necessarily have a problem if you have a subprime mortgage, if you're able to make the payment.
ZAHN: But you also should very -- look very carefully where it says two years?
SANTOLI: That's right. Yes.
Two years is basically telling you that this is not something for the life of the loan, this rate.
ZAHN: Gerri, I want to bring you back into our conversation.
And I have got to tell you, I have been looking at this as carefully as I can. And, further down on the document -- and it is way down -- you are going to finally see a little section that says: how your payment can change. And that's where it reads, the maximum amount that the interest rate could rise under the program is 6 percent above the initial interest rate of 5.5 percent, up to 11.5 percent. What does that tell us?
WILLIS: Well, it means that you're on the hook for an interest rate of 11.5 percent. And you figure that on your payment, you are going to be paying two, three times what you're paying right now.
Most of those folks never figured on that. And what's more, right now, interest rates are at about 6.2 percent. You see the difference between nearly 12 percent and 6.2 percent? I have got to tell you, if people really understood what they were on the hook for here, I think they would all want to go out and refinance, Paula.
ZAHN: And you have got to wonder what impact, Michael, this is going to have on folks just looking for traditional mortgages.
SANTOLI: Yes, that's the problem. And it will crimp the flow of credit into the general lending market on some level.
I mean, I think prime mortgages are probably still OK. You still have seen a little bit of slippage, in terms of default rates going up on prime mortgages. It definitely is an issue. I think a bigger impact, potentially, short term or intermediate term, is the number of homes that are going to be coming on the market for sale, because they were foreclosed and the bank wants to sell them.
We already have a record number of unsold homes, in terms of the supply of homes on the market. That's not going to help general home prices.
WILLIS: Right.
SANTOLI: That, to me, is a macroeconomic impact.
ZAHN: Gerri, a final word of advice for potential homebuyers and mortgage shoppers?
WILLIS: Hey, I got to tell you, if you think you have one of these loans right now, it is time to refinance. Get yourself a new loan. It's not cheap. You will pay for it. You will pay closing costs, maybe as much as thousands of dollars. But, at the end of the day, you will be able to sleep at night, because you will know exactly what you're on the hook for.
ZAHN: Well, you two make a very good team.
Michael Santoli, Gerri Willis, thanks for the great information.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIS: Thank you.
ZAHN: I know it will be helpful out there.
Now on to something for you to consider: About half the people in this country never go to church. Would attendance go up if the sermons promised to improve your sex life?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT KELLER, PASTOR, NEXT LEVEL CHURCH: ... God created sex, that God is for sex.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Out in the open next: how one church is packing them in, preaching, actually selling under mygreatsexlife.com.
A little bit later on, what could be the next hot issue in American schools: Should Muslim girls be forced to take off their veils? Is there a ban in the works?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: The next story we're bringing out in the open tonight combines sex, marketing and religion, not three things you usually think of together. But, when we heard about how one church in Florida is trying to attract more followers, we had to know more.
So, we sent Ted Rowlands to Fort Myers to find out about the preacher who is using sex to sell the church.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sex gets people's attention...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mycrappysexlife.com.
ROWLANDS: ... which this billboard in Florida certainly did.
MATT KELLER, PASTOR, NEXT LEVEL CHURCH: We were going for a shock-and-awe factor. And we certainly got that.
ROWLANDS: The shock was that billboard, which some people thought was vulgar, came from a church...
M. KELLER: Part three of this series we're calling "My Great Sex Life."
ROWLANDS: ... part of a marketing campaign promoting a series of sermons on sex.
M. KELLER: ... God created sex, that God is for sex.
ROWLANDS: Thirty-one-year-old pastor Matt Keller runs the nondenominational Next Level Church in Fort Myers. Before this service, a warning to parents was posted that the material may not be suitable for children.
M. KELLER: So, the question is not, am I going to have sexual desire in my life? The question, what am I going to do about it?
ROWLANDS: Keller's message, while delivered with a hip conversational, passionate style, is pretty much by the book. He preaches that sex is for single people to avoid and married men and women to enjoy.
His wife, Sarah, was at his side for this service about sex in marriage.
SARAH KELLER, NEXT LEVEL CHURCH: And I think that culture wants us to buy into that lie that sex is a duty, especially once you get into marriage. It's just kind of like, I guess he needs it, so here I am.
M. KELLER: God created sex. Why not at least tell people what he has to say about it?
ROWLANDS: Keller says, since starting the sex series, church membership has grown about 30 percent. And it's a growing trend, especially among evangelicals.
Kurt Fredrickson is the director of pastoral ministry at the Fuller Theological Seminary in California.
KURT FREDRICKSON, DIRECTOR OF PASTORAL MINISTRY, FULLER THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY: To hit those issues head on in a church context, I think, is really helpful.
ROWLANDS: Church members we talked to say they like the idea of bringing an issue like sex out in the open in church. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think, in today's society, it's not talked about enough.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will be looking forward to, you know, hearing some -- you know, some things and how to open up our communication and improve our -- our sex life.
ROWLANDS: But not everyone is thrilled. Because of complaints, Keller says the billboard company refused to allow the sex slogan for a second month. So, now it's just the church's name.
FREDRICKSON: My issue was that the billboard had this sense of luridness and deception. It was trying to draw people someplace. And, when they got drawn to a church, I think people would feel cheated or duped.
M. KELLER: We have heard a couple of people who have used the phrase bait and switch. I don't think we're doing that. It's not about us trying to grow our church. It's not about us trying to build this big thing. It's about us building people. We're in the people- building business.
ROWLANDS: Randy Newton (ph) says the billboard campaign caught his attention. And now he says he's hooked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's really in your face. And it's a for- real topic. You know, everybody -- everybody deals with it. And for it to actually happen in the church, and for the pastor to actually step up and say, hey, this is what we're going to say about it as a church, is a really bold statement.
M. KELLER: God has given us the ability to have a great sex life in our marriages.
ROWLANDS: Everyone agrees that sex sells, but Matt Keller thinks he can use it to fill people's hearts, while also filling his seats.
Ted Rowlands, CNN, Fort Myers, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Let's go to tonight's "Out in the Open" panel now: radio talk show host and NewsMax.com columnist Steve Malzberg, Edina Lekovic of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, and Michelle Bernard, president of the Independent Women's Forum.
Great to have all of you with us.
No doubt, when you look at these numbers on the screen right now, church attendance at that church up 38 percent. Sex sells.
Would you be comfortable with that message in your synagogue, in your mosque?
STEVE MALZBERG, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: No. I mean, I would never join or go to a service because I see a bulletin board that gives me a sex Web site that's affiliated with the synagogue or the congregation. It's a gimmickry.
I don't know enough about what else he talks about or how much else he brings up. But to have, you know, the premise to be there is that, well, God wants you to have sex, God wants you to have a great sex life, I mean, come on. That's not why people go to church, or that's not why people go to synagogue or a mosque. They go to -- for spiritual reasons. And they know that they can have a good sex life with their mate.
MICHELLE BERNARD, PRESIDENT & CEO, INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM: But, you know, it's even more than that, because, if you take a look -- I personally feel it's a little vulgar, but I understand it as a marketing trick.
I think his church is located in a school or in a movie theater. And he's trying to get people in. But it goes beyond that. When you first read the headline, I would think that a lot of people would think to themselves: mycrappysexlife.com. Oh, I'm going to learn about performance.
But, if you dig through the pages, what he's really doing is preaching to the choir and telling people sex before marriage is not a good thing. And, if you wait until you get married, this is wonderful.
It's gimmickry. It's...
ZAHN: You see it as bait and switch, then?
BERNARD: I do. I do.
EDINA LEKOVIC, MUSLIM PUBLIC AFFAIRS COUNCIL: Yes. I mean, it is to some degree.
And, if we look at this in the best possible light, it's that we're really trying to preserve the institution of marriage. And we certainly can't be against that.
So, looking at, you know, what -- what we should be simultaneously talking about is how to decrease divorce rates, how to increase communication in marriages, how to deal with everything else, in addition to sex that will improve the quality of marital life for all people, so that it -- you know, it -- it's not as simple as just improve your sex life and the divorce rates are going to go down and all the problems are going to be fixed.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Let's look at what else you can find on this preacher's Web site, where he says: Sex wasn't invented in a dark alley, behind a porn shop. We believe that it's parts of God's design. In fact, this may shock you, but God wants you to have great sex.
Are you offended by that?
(CROSSTALK) (LAUGHTER)
MALZBERG: I'm not offended, but there's something unseemly about this preacher, who doesn't have a church, doesn't have a building, holds these town-hall type meetings, based on a billboard...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: What does difference it make what the building is?
MALZBERG: But unseemly that you have to advertise that you're going to be talking about sex and how to improve your sex life and what great -- I think premarital sex should be -- abstinence should be taught. But you don't draw people in by saying mysexlifestinks.com. There's just something very unseemly about that. It doesn't go along with religion.
BERNARD: You know, also it's all -- everything is up for interpretation. And this is what is always wrong -- or -- I don't want to say wrong with religion, but here is the danger and here is the slippery slope.
This is his interpretation of the Bible. I mean, there are other people, for example, who would say, if you look at the Song of Solomon, it is absolutely the most sexual book in the Bible, and it doesn't talk about man and woman being husband and wife. It just talks about a woman, she's single, and sex is not for procreation.
So, what is he going to do when some of the people in his ministry read the Song of Solomon, and say to him, but premarital sex, it says it right here in the Bible; it's OK?
MALZBERG: Well, if you need this kind of thing to be drawn into a church or a synagogue, you're not going to stay and come back and become religious all of a sudden. You're going to stay for the sex chatter and then you're going to leave and never come back. That's all.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: A quick final word.
LEKOVIC: It seems like a passing trend, more than anything else. It's a way of getting people in the pews. And, certainly, these days, people are looking for any way to get people in the pews.
So, we will just see how long it really lasts.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: I was going to say, we will know if it's a passing trend when we look at those numbers a year from now.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER) ZAHN: Stay right there. We're going to come back to you all in just a moment.
And please let us know what you think. Is it OK to use sex in sermons to sell religion and pack the pews? Go to our Web site, CNN.com/Paula. Cast your vote. We will have the results a little bit later on.
Meanwhile, the fight over abortion is out in the open tonight in South Carolina -- coming up next, the sponsor of a bill that would require women to look at their unborn fetus before going ahead with an abortion.
And later: Would you have gotten through school if this was all you could see?
We will explain when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Should a woman who is going to have an abortion be forced to look at an ultrasound picture of the fetus before she goes through with it? We're bringing that question "Out in the Open" tonight because just hours ago, South Carolina's House passed a bill to make that law, and the state Senate probably will approve it quickly.
Abortion opponents may hope this persuades women not to go through with abortions, but supporters of abortion rights say it's just plain intimidation.
With me now, state senator Kevin Bryant, a Republican who's sponsoring the bill.
Thanks so much for being with us tonight, Senator.
KEVIN BRYANT (R), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE SENATOR: Thank you, Paula.
ZAHN: Thank you. Are you, through this bill, trying to scare women away from having abortions?
BRYANT: No, we're not trying to scare women about having an abortion, but we just want to show her all the facts, show her how the baby is developed in the womb with 10 fingers and 10 toes. And when she makes this decision -- and this doesn't do anything with that choice, but it does add information and makes the choice more informed. And that's the goal of the legislation.
ZAHN: But you do feel that looking at this ultrasound makes a difference. And I know some people dispute the statistics that you have used to try to get this bill through, but you think the more women who look at these ultrasounds, the more they'll be discouraged to go through with an abortion.
BRYANT: Well, we feel that the right choice is to carry the child. That's our opinion. And we've seen 80, 85 percent of women who do view an ultrasound of the baby in their womb do, most of the time, indeed, decide to carry that child and deliver the child. So, we believe that it adds honor, adds respect to the life in the womb.
ZAHN: Senator, I want to put up on the screen now something that a well-known bioethicist said about this proposed law. "We don't require people who are undergoing any surgical procedure to view models of what their heart looks like or what their stomach looks like before they're operated on."
So his question, essentially, is why should abortion be any different?
BRYANT: Well, this isn't a heart or it's not a lung. This is another living human being that has rights and should be honored. So, I believe that it's a different situation here, because we're dealing with a baby.
These ultrasounds show a beating heart with four chambers. It shows a developed spinal cord where you can see different vertebrae. It's way more developed than one would imagine. It's certainly not a blob of tissue or another organ of the body.
ZAHN: Planned Parenthood, as you know, is also opposed to this bill. And I also want to share that criticism with you tonight.
BRYANT: Yes.
ZAHN: They write, "Women are intelligent and thoughtful human beings who would not go forward if they did not think this was in their best interest. This bill is nothing more than politically driven. It's unnecessary and an attempt to restrict abortion by scaring and intimidating women."
Are you trying to suggest that women can't make informed decisions without looking at this ultrasound?
BRYANT: I believe that the decision would definitely be informed if they do see this ultrasound, and I do believe there are some involved in this debate that simply are disappointed when someone chooses to carry the child. That's what it appears, anyway.
ZAHN: What really upsets people, though, is why some people think it's OK to even insist that women who have been raped by a family member or by a stranger should also be subjected to looking at this ultrasound. Is that fair?
BRYANT: Well, that is -- well, that's -- that was proposed in the House. And that amendment was tabled. I believe it will probably be proposed again in the Senate, even though I won't support that amendment.
It would still be -- the bill would still be something I could support if that's in there. And, you know, we'll just have to take it when it comes.
But the thing is, we still have a life, regardless of circumstances, a developed baby. And I believe that baby should be part of that decision process that the patient undergoes.
ZAHN: Senator Kevin Bryant, got to leave it there. Thanks for coming in tonight.
BRYANT: OK. Thank you, Paula.
ZAHN: Our pleasure.
Moving on to the next big controversy, it happens to be in our schools, and it may be here sooner than you think. Coming up next, should Muslim girls be forced to take off their veils?
And don't forget tonight's "Quick Vote" question. Go to CNN.com and tell us whether you think it's OK to use sex to sell in religion in church.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: And welcome back.
We wanted to give you an unusual perspective tonight. Eventually on the screen you're going to see what will be the view from inside a full Muslim veil. We asked one of our cameramen to walk around with a burka draped over the camera to give you an idea of what it's like to see the world from inside one.
And here's why we did this. This week the British government gave principals the power to ban girls from wearing full face veils at school. They're concerned about safety, and they say teachers and students need to see each other to communicate.
Well, we're bringing the story "Out in the Open" tonight because of the tough questions it raises about religious freedom, education, safety and security.
Back to our "Out in the Open" panel right now -- Steve Malzberg, Edina Lekovic, and Michelle Bernard.
Welcome back.
Explain to us, first of all, Edina, why the face veil and the burka is so important to some Muslim women.
LEKOVIC: Well, I have to say first that it is a minority within a minority that wears the full -- the full face veil. Most Muslim women either wear a head scarf, as I'm wearing, which is called a hijab, or no scarf at all. That's the vast majority of women throughout the world, not to mention within, you know, Muslim -- Muslim countries.
ZAHN: And what does it mean? What does it symbolize?
LEKOVIC: It symbolizes modesty. It's intended to be -- it is a matter of a woman's personal choice in order to reflect her faith and in order to be taken for her mind rather than for her sexuality or for her body. It is intended for all of the highest ideals so that a woman can be -- can express herself to termination, can utilize her intelligence, and can operate as a, you know, full-blown citizen in that realm.
ZAHN: It may be intended for the highest ideals...
LEKOVIC: Yes.
ZAHN: ... but I want our audience now to look at this statistic out of Britain, one which really makes you ask, you know, the whole question about tolerance versus discrimination, where 53 percent of those asked said they would approve of a ban veil in school.
Would you?
MALZBERG: I don't think it has anything to do with tolerance versus discrimination, but with respect...
ZAHN: But would you approve a ban?
MALZBERG: Sure, if the schools, for the stated reasons given in the British law for safety, for security, which I think is the key...
ZAHN: What is the safety issue? Are you afraid that a terrorist is sitting across from you? Is that what you're saying?
MALZBERG: Well, I think that would be security. How do you even know that the girl is who she says she is. How do you even know it's the actual student if all you're going to see is the person's eyes. I mean, that's -- that's the obvious number one.
Safety of the student. We see how blurred it is to see and walk around through that. And also the learning factor. They feel they need to see the kid's face to appreciate whether or not the student is learning in a give-and-take situation.
So absolutely, I agree with the ban under those circumstances.
ZAHN: Again, it's as though he's completely bought in to what the British school system is saying. And we'll put that up on the screen. But it's the point you just made is basically why they're supporting this ban.
(CROSSTALK)
MALZBERG: Yes. Yes. Right.
LEKOVIC: The problem is that by banning religious symbols, you make them more popular. It's like banning books. What you do is, you make people run out and get them more.
Religious symbols are not a barrier to integration. Ideas may be. Rather at looking at whether these women are integrated by looking at how they're outwardly dressed, we should instead be looking at what their views are towards democracy, towards...
MALZBERG: How could you know if it's the actual student that they claim to be? You can't even see them.
LEKOVIC: You certainly can. That's the relationship between the student and the teacher.
BERNARD: This is not Great Britain. This is the United States. If you believe in our democracy, if you believe in the First Amendment, if you believe in freedom of religious expression, which is what we are preaching all over the Middle East, you would be against this ban.
I mean, I agree with you to the extent that if there's a legitimate national security interest, then go ahead and ban it. But students don't lose their First Amendment rights in the United States when they get to the school board because somebody feels uncomfortable with the person sitting beside them.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Didn't 9/11 change this perspective...
MALZBERG: Oh, please.
BERNARD: We are now engaged in some very dangerous profiling against Muslims, and a lot of it is very, very unwarranted.
MALZBERG: How is profiling dangerous? Let me tell you something, no one out there has to worry that this will happen in this country because we don't have the guts for it, OK? And as a matter of fact...
LEKOVIC: We also have a Constitution.
MALZBERG: ... groups like CARE, which Chuck Schumer has said, groups like CARE are pushing the envelope the other way. Look what's happening.
You've got prayer rooms in public schools for Muslims around the country. You have cab drivers who won't pick up and carry people in their cabs who have alcohol. You have Target people, cashiers, who won't check out bacon.
We're going the other way. The flying imams.
They're testing the limits. We're losing right now.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: What happens when someone says you can't wear your cross, you can't wear your yarmulke in school?
MALZBERG: That's ridiculous.
BERNARD: It is making it difficult for us to teach our children.
MALZBERG: You know why? BERNARD: There's a slippery slope. If there's a national security interest, ban it. But if there's not a national security interest...
MALZBERG: Well, there is. There is.
LEKOVIC: No, a legitimate national security interest.
(CROSSTALK)
MALZBERG: Muslim Islamic fundamentalists are blowing people up all over the world.
BERNARD: Criminals...
MALZBERG: All over the world.
LEKOVIC: That is true, but those are not the people -- but those are not the people that are going to school.
(CROSSTALK)
MALZBERG: Excuse me, in the Middle East they use children all the time. Look what they just did in Iraq with the two kids in the car. They used it to get in, they left the kids in the car and blew it up.
LEKOVIC: You're talking about criminalism. This is criminalism that we are discussing. This is...
MALZBERG: It's Islamic fundamentalism.
LEKOVIC: No, this is criminalism...
MALZBERG: It's fascism.
LEKOVIC: This is criminalism cloaked in religion.
MALZBERG: No.
LEKOVIC: And the more that we make that argument...
MALZBERG: No, it's a form of your religion, exploited by fascists.
LEKOVIC: The more we make that argument, the more that we support the argument of Osama bin Laden, of al Qaeda, who make the similar argument and who do try to posit that there is a clash of civilizations. What we need to be doing...
MALZBERG: Oh, there is a clash of civilizations.
LEKOVIC: What we need to be doing is following the example of Senator Susan Collins, who, along with Senator Joe Lieberman last week, held a hearing on extremism and the possibility of extremism in the states. And they said that the problem that is taking place in Europe is not taking place here.
ZAHN: You get the last word.
LEKOVIC: That what we need to do is increase the...
(CROSSTALK)
MALZBERG: We have our eyes closed. We have a Congress that's arguing...
LEKOVIC: We need to follow their lead.
MALZBERG: ... about -- that's arguing about attorneys that have been fired, when we need to concentrate on protecting us from islofascists.
LEKOVIC: And protecting our Constitution at the same time.
ZAHN: All right. I've got to move on. I have to protect our commercial break.
MALZBERG: There you go.
ZAHN: Steve Malzberg, Edina Lekovic, Michelle Bernard, thank you all.
A disturbing national trend is "Out in the Open" tonight and caught on camera. Coming up next, crimes that go way beyond the pranks we usually associate with teenage troublemakers.
And remember our "Quick Vote" question. Is it OK to use sex in sermons to sell religion and fill the pews? Tell us at cnn.com/paula.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: And welcome back. It's that time of the night when we go to Kiran Chetry for tonight's "BizBreak".
(BUSINESS REPORT)
ZAHN: Tonight, "Out in the Open," a disturbing trend -- vicious attacks on homeless people. In fact, violence against the homeless has turned into such an epidemic, that at least six states this year have taken steps to classify attacks on the homeless as hate crimes. And even more alarming is what's driving this trend -- gangs of teenagers staging brutal assaults on the homeless.
We asked Dan Lothian to investigate.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Lucas Wiser was 21 years old, homeless, and living on the streets of Corpus Christi, Texas, when a group of young men attacked him in the middle of the night.
(on camera): What did they do?
LUCAS WISER, ATTACKED WHILE LIVING ON THE STREET: All I know is they just through the lighter fluid and gasoline on to my right arm, and underneath the arm. Next thing I know, it's 4:30 in the morning and I'm on fire.
LOTHIAN: What did it feel like?
WISER: It just felt like somebody was ripping my skin off my arm.
LOTHIAN (voice over): Without provocation or warning, Wiser says he became the victim of what some call a thrill hate crime, targeted just for being homeless.
WISER: What I was told that they said is that he was homeless and nobody would care about him.
LOTHIAN: They were six young men caught on surveillance tape dousing Wiser with flammable liquids, lighting a flame, and leaving him to burn. Amazingly, he survived by stumbling into a muddy puddle, but not before sustaining second and third-degree burns to his arm and chest and enduring three surgeries.
Wiser's story is not unique.
MICHAEL STOOPS, NATIONAL COALITION FOR THE HOMELESS: The streets and sidewalks are becoming more dangerous for homeless people. And they're being targeted by teenagers.
LOTHIAN: Teen on homeless violence is also happening in cities like San Francisco, Milwaukee, and Ft. Lauderdale, where last year 45- year-old Norris Gaynor was beaten and killed allegedly by three teens. A surveillance camera caught what police say are two of them brutally beating a homeless man that same night. The teens each pleaded not guilty to charges of first-degree murder and attempted murder.
SIMONE MANNING-MOON, NORRIS GAYNOR'S SISTER: We miss Norris. I miss my big brother. I do.
LOTHIAN: Gaynor's sister says she always feared for her brother's safety once he became homeless.
MANNING-MOON: Sleeping on a park bench, minding his own business. He was asleep. He was bothering no one. To think that anyone could hurt someone like that, we're still having trouble processing that it could happen.
LOTHIAN: A new study by the National Coalition for the Homeless found a 65 percent increase in the number of all attacks against homeless victims just last year. Like this one in Cleveland, where a homeless man is tasered by three teens as he sleeps, or here, as the same group kicks another person resting under a sheet.
A hundred and forty-two attacks, including 20 murders. And that may not be the whole picture. STOOPS: There's a lot more incidences that go unreported.
LOTHIAN: What's behind the teen violence?
NATHAN MOORE, CONVICTED MURDERER: There's no rationale explanation for what we did.
LOTHIAN: Nathan Moore was sentenced to 15 years in prison after he and two other teens befriended a homeless man, then beat him to death in 2004.
MOORE: And then once you just get into the heat of the moment, you can't control yourself. I never meant for -- to do it, you know. I regret it every day.
LOTHIAN: Northeastern University criminologist Jack Levin says society's treatment of the homeless is partly to blame.
JACK LEVIN, NORTHEASTERN UNIV.: They are not seen as people at all. They are seen as garbage that needs to be eliminated. And that's why it's so commonplace nowadays for teenagers to be able to do the most sadistic and despicable things to people on the streets.
LOTHIAN: Some point the finger at Bum Fight videos, films sold on the Internet showing fights between homeless people who are paid to rumble. That certainly seemed to influence these teens.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bum Fights.
LOTHIAN: They were convicted of assault after videotaping themselves beating, kicking and urinating on a homeless man in Canada, laughing the whole time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did you hit him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do it again. Do it again.
LOTHIAN: Lucas Wiser's attacks were also caught. Two of them are serving time.
(on camera): What did you want to do to them?
WISER: I wanted to kill them, but I chose not to.
LOTHIAN: Wiser is no longer homeless. He lives with his father and stepmother here in upstate New York. It's far away from Texas, but he's still haunted by the attack that took place more than two years ago.
And what are those nightmares like?
WISER: I'm yelling. I'm yelling at the doctors, the EMS, the fire.
LOTHIAN (voice over): And every day, he wakes up to this...
WISER: It's all the way down to right there.
LOTHIAN: ... scars covering his chest and arm. But he's no longer angry. Just determined to show the public that the homeless are human, too, trying to get back on their feet.
Dan Lothian, CNN, Oswego, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: We're going to turn our attention now to "Life After Work" -- change our focus quite a bit -- and a former Washington power broker who moved from a cabinet post in the Clinton presidency to a commitment to helping people in some of America's poorest neighborhoods.
Here is Ali Velshi with tonight's "Life After Work".
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The Bronx, southeast Washington, D.C., the Mississippi Delta, all stark images of poverty and a sharp contrast to the life of a former U.S. Treasury secretary. But Robert Rubin made one trip to the Bronx that completely changed his perspective.
ROBERT RUBIN, FMR. TREASURY SECRETARY: It was astounding, because what I saw in the south Bronx, which in a sense was the arch symbol of urban decay at one time, was block after block after block after block after block of renovated housing that was the beginning of new business activity. It was the creation of a real community.
And so I said, well, how did this happen? And that's when I heard about LISC.
VELSHI: LISC is the Local Initiative Support Corporation. It's a nonprofit organization that helps community groups fund projects to redevelop rundown neighborhoods.
RUBIN: I left Treasury in July of 1999. And Michael Rubinger of LISC came to me and said, "Our chairman is going to step down. We would like you to be chairman."
And that was the first thing -- first thing that I did. And the reason I did it was I think that these problems with the inner cities and of the distressed rural areas are a critical issue for our country, socially, morally, but also very much economically.
VELSHI: Rubin is still active in the for-profit world. He's a senior adviser for financial giant Citigroup, and he sits on a few corporate boards. But he says working with LISC is what really drives him.
RUBIN: I think that the best way to get a sense of how important LISC is, is to go on a little tour of project sites. And it really is interesting, because what you see, (INAUDIBLE) pictures of what it looked like before -- and then of course we'll see what it looked like after -- you get a sense of really how great these accomplishments have been.
VELSHI: Ali Velshi, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Something to be very, very proud of.
Just a few minutes away from "LARRY KING LIVE". At the top of the hour tonight, Elizabeth Edwards' latest cancer diagnosis and the challenges that lie ahead for her. Breast cancer survivor Sheryl Crow is among the guests coming up at the top of the hour. Maria Shriver hosting tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Just enough time to give you tonight's "Quick Vote" results.
We asked: "Is it OK to use sex in sermons to sell religion?" That's happening in a bunch of parishes around the country. Forty percent of you said yes, 60 percent said no.
Not a scientific poll. Certainly interesting, though.
That wraps it up for all of us here tonight.
"Out in the Open" tomorrow night, a radio contest where listeners are encouraged to catch and turn in illegal immigrants. Are the shock jocks behind it heroes or hate mongers?
That's tomorrow night.
Coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE," what Elizabeth Edwards faces now that her cancer has returned. This time, in her ribs.
Thank you again for spending some time with us tonight. Hope you join us same time, same place tomorrow night.
Until then, have a great night.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
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