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Paula Zahn Now
Rudy Giuliani Backs Abortion Rights; Dirty Radio; Overseas Terror Plot Exposed
Aired May 11, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody. Glad to have you with us tonight.
Here's what we're bringing out in the open: new word of a terrorist plot targeting Americans. Who is behind it, and how close were they to striking?
Also, the raunchy world of satellite radio -- you're not going to believe the filth these guys get away with saying. How about, for starters, actually threatening a violent sex act against Condoleezza Rice and Laura Bush? Is it time for somebody to stop them?
And should movies be rated R just because there's smoking in them?
Back to the terrorist plot tonight -- that is what is out in the open. It involved bombs. It involved guns, and apparently targeted Americans in Germany.
A senior government official tells CNN that the plot was in the advanced stages of planning when it was discovered. But there's also a whole lot we still don't know.
Our reporters here and in Europe have been working their sources all day long.
We are going to get started with homeland security correspondent Jeanne Meserve.
What's the latest, Jeanne?
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Paula, the threat information is credible, officials say. But they do not believe an attack is imminent. And they say the intelligence has been evolving for weeks, even months.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE (voice-over): The alleged target, U.S. military and diplomatic facilities in Germany -- the plotters, Islamic extremists.
U.S. officials say the intelligence was not specific as to target and timing. But one senior official says the plotters hoped to stage multiple attacks involving bombs and small weapons.
Citing a heightened threat situation, three weeks ago, the State Department increased security at diplomatic and consular offices in, Germany and advised U.S. citizens there to be more vigilant.
SEAN MCCORMACK, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Whenever we do have information that we believe is credible enough to act on, we have a legal requirement, as well as moral requirement, to pass along our best advice to our public, so that they can take steps to protect themselves.
MESERVE: In recent days, U.S. military forces in Germany have been engaged in exercises designed to improve their security, a prudent response, Pentagon officials say.
If terrorists wanted to hit the U.S. military overseas, Germany would be a logical place to do it. The only country with more U.S. troops is Iraq. And Germany has a history of Islamic extremism. The 9/11 plot was hatched in Hamburg.
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Clearly, there is an Islamic extremism problem in Germany. German officials put the number as high as 300 to 500 kind of al Qaeda sympathizers, which is quite a high number.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: So, Jeanne, the G8 Summit is going to be held in the next several weeks in Germany. Do these officials think this threat perhaps was tied to that?
MESERVE: Well, intelligence officials tell us they see no indication that there is a connection between the summit and this plot.
But, because that summit is going to bring so many world leaders into Germany, it is one reason they are so seriously concerned about it -- Paula.
ZAHN: Jeanne Meserve, thanks so much for the update.
We move on now to news of the terror threats and how is it rattling nerves in Germany. What are German and American officials there doing to keep Americans safe?
Let's go to Berlin bureau chief Frederik Pleitgen.
How are German officials responding to this news, Frederik?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN BERLIN BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Paula, one thing that German officials have been telling us, they have consistently been telling us for the past couple of weeks, they are absolutely certain that al Qaeda is operating here in Germany.
So, what they have been doing over the past couple of weeks is, they have been massively stepping up their intelligence operations here in Germany. And one of the things they're doing is that they are consistently monitoring the Internet and monitoring especially chat rooms, where they say they are picking up messages that Islamist extremists could be plotting attacks here in Germany since a long time, actually.
And another thing that they're also doing, they're also monitoring groups that they think might be plotting extremist activity here in Germany. And what German officials have been saying is that they believe that Germany is very much a country that is in danger of terrorism.
And one thing that they have been very specific to point out, they say that Americans in this country are very, very much at risk -- Paula.
ZAHN: So, has the security been increased all over the country because of this threat?
PLEITGEN: Absolutely. It's been very much increased in this country.
You see this on the streets. You see more police people on the streets. What you also see is especially American installations here in Germany. And Jeanne talked about this. There was a warning by the American Embassy here in Germany only two weeks ago.
And, since then, we have seen massively increased security at the embassy here in Berlin. And we have seen more and more police officers patrol that embassy here in Berlin. And we have also seen the same thing go down at the consular offices here in Berlin as well.
And, also, as Jeanne was pointing out, some American military installations have been upping their security, although we do not know if that is actually related to this latest threat -- Paula.
ZAHN: So, Frederik, how do Germans view this increased security?
PLEITGEN: Well, they are very worried about security at this point.
And Jeanne pointed this out as well. We have the G8 Summit coming up here in Germany, where all sorts of world leaders are going to be coming here. Most of all, of course, the American president is going to be coming here.
And one thing that's been going on is that Germans have been upping their security around that G8. They have been building a big fence around the G8 place where that's going to be taking place. So, they are very much afraid for security at this time -- Paula.
ZAHN: Frederik Pleitgen, thank you so much.
We want to get more now on this terror plight and who might be behind it.
With me now, international security expert Jim Walsh.
Always good to see you, Jim.
JIM WALSH, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY: Good to see you, Paula.
ZAHN: So, what do you make of this threat?
WALSH: Well, I think, as the last two reports indicated, both Frederik and Jeanne, there's reason to be concerned.
But I think this story sort of took on a life of its own early this morning, and then changed through the course of the day. Are we concerned about Islamic extremists striking in Germany? Yes. Striking U.S. targets? Yes.
Is it going to happen tomorrow? Maybe, but probably not. And, in fact, this coming out in public now, with a real focus on it, I think, makes it less likely that there will be an operation that happens today, tomorrow, or next week, or during the G8 Summit.
ZAHN: But help us understand the growth of this Islamic extremism movement in Germany. We just heard one of our experts say that they believe anywhere to 300 to 500 al Qaeda sympathizers are out there in Germany. Do you buy those numbers? Or does that sound too high?
(CROSSTALK)
WALSH: Well, Peter -- I buy anything that Peter Bergen says. But he was quoting someone else.
These numbers, you always have to ask, what are they based on? How do we know that there are 300 of -- I mean, 500, that's like an army. Some people, years ago, said there were only 500 made members of al Qaeda in general.
So, I would focus less on the particular numbers and more on the history. And we do have a history, as Jeanne pointed out.
You had extremists moving into Germany in the early and mid- 1990s, setting up an al Qaeda cell. Those people were involved in both the embassy bombings in Africa and, obviously, in 9/11. We have a German who has been convicted of helping the 9/11 plotters who carried out that horrible attack. And, so, there had -- that -- there's a history there.
On the other hand, it has to be said, Germany has responded; 9/11 was a wakeup call. They passed two big sets of legislation. They have poured over $2 billion into their counterterrorism efforts. They are watching a lot more people. So, their effort has been to respond and to work more closely with U.S. officials.
ZAHN: But how are they going to make Americans safe over there, if they don't even know where these guys are now, they and haven't made any arrests?
WALSH: Well, that's a great question, Paula.
One of the curious things about this report today is that they -- they know enough to say that it was at an advanced stage of organization, about to be implemented. But they don't know who it is or when it is or what it is or what -- what was going to happen.
So, it's hard to tell what's going on here. My own guess is, though, that, if there is a cell that is planning an operation -- and they could be in London, planing it for Germany -- they don't have to be in Germany, planning it for Germany -- an E.U. passport gets you anywhere -- my guess is that it would be focused at U.S. targets, military targets, because of their symbolic nature.
And the average tourist going to Germany, I don't think, has to worry a heck of a lot.
ZAHN: Few, a lot of people are saying that.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: Jim Walsh, thank you for your insights.
WALSH: Thank you, Paula.
ZAHN: Moving on now to a different subject: Would you believe there are people out there openly joking about raping first lady Laura Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice? Why isn't anyone talk stopping them? Because they happen to be on satellite radio.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH MCBRIDE, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": It is the Wild West. You're right. You can pretty much say what you want on satellite radio.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Out in the open next: Should the government clean up satellite radio?
And, then, a little bit later on: Rudy Giuliani stands up for abortion rights. Is he going to the White House or going to hell for his beliefs?
And you have got to see this unbelievable courtroom moment. A mother confronts the man who murdered her little boy. It happened to be his father.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Welcome back.
Right now, I want you to see something absolutely appalling and absolutely real.
In a New Jersey courtroom today, a woman confronted the murderer of her 2-year-old son. The killer is the little boy's father.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now what do I have? What do I have to (INAUDIBLE) Nothing. And you stand there. You can't say nothing. You can't shed a tear, because you're so (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: We're going to hear more from that courtroom in just a little bit, including the most incredible thing of all, why the killer is going to go free.
But, first, it's been a month since Don Imus got fired for his comments about the Rutgers University women's basketball team. Well, tonight, we are going to bring some other shock jocks' words out in the open, or as much of them as we can.
You are going to hear a lot of bleeps. And it is still going to be offensive. They were talking, believe it or not, about raping first lady Laura Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.
We ask Brooke Anderson to find out how these guys can get away with this. And it happens to boil down to two simple words: satellite radio.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SARAH MCBRIDE, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": "Opie & Anthony" are an extremely popular show on satellite radio. And it would undercut the point of satellite radio if they were fired for this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE OPIE & ANTHONY SHOW")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's that George Bush (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Rice?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN CULTURE AND ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is extremely controversial chatter, some of radio's most outrageous shock jocks causing huge shockwaves.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE OPIE & ANTHONY SHOW")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will punch her all in the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) face.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ANDERSON: This is talk about violent sexual acts against the secretary of state and the first lady of the United States on Opie & Anthony's XM Satellite Radio show on Wednesday morning.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE OPIE & ANTHONY SHOW")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Condoleezza Rice?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would love to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (END AUDIO CLIP)
ANDERSON: The full exchange between the hosts and a guest called Homeless Charlie was so bad that it could never be aired in its original form on broadcast radio or TV, but it was later posted online on Breitbart.tv.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE OPIE & ANTHONY SHOW")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just imagine the horror in Condoleezza Rice's face...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When she realizes what is going on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... as you were just, like, holding her down and (EXPLETIVE DELETED) her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And -- and George Bush's wife, I will (EXPLETIVE DELETED) that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ANDERSON: The State Department has thus far declined to comment. The White House says they won't dignify it with a response.
An XM Radio spokesman did have a response, telling CNN, "We deplore the comments made on Wednesday's 'Opie & Anthony Show.'" But the spokesman wouldn't say whether the company intends any disciplinary action against the hosts.
MCBRIDE: It is the Wild West. You can pretty much say what you want on satellite radio. It's not subject to the same indecency restrictions that regular radio is.
ANDERSON: Remember, this comes just one month after CBS fired host Don Imus for offensive comments he made on regular radio. And Opie and Anthony have an earlier, less raunchy morning show on regular, or terrestrial, radio that airs on some CBS stations.
MCBRIDE: CBS is a little bit in the hot spot right now. If you fire one person for offensive language and then you have somebody else on the air that many people think has been offensive, what do you do?
ANDERSON: For now, CBS seems relieved this didn't happen on their air, saying, "Fortunately, we have standards that did not and would not ever let something like this make our air."
The hosts weighed in, too, offering the same message to listeners of both of their shows Friday.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We apologize to the public officials for comments that were made on the XM show on May 9. And we do take very seriously the responsibility that comes with our creative freedom that we get here, and regret any offense that this segment has caused.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ANDERSON: After only one hour on the air, they signed off for the day. Their XM program usually runs nearly three hours.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Simple as this. We're going home early today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: While fans in a chat room who watch a daily Webcast of the XM show on Paltalk.com typed their displeasure at the decision to apologize, the guys in the eye of the latest free speech storm ended their abbreviated show today seeming somewhat defiant.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Real fans, they understand, trust me.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Brooke Anderson, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: So, how can these guys get away with this?
Let's ask Howard Kurtz(r)MD-IN¯. He's the host of CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES." He also covers the media for "The Washington Post."
Hi, Howard. Thanks for joining us.
HOWARD KURTZ, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Paula.
ZAHN: This stuff is absolutely sick. Why won't the FCC do anything about it?
KURTZ: Well, the FCC has no jurisdiction over the content of satellite radio, unlike over-the-air radio, where you do need to get some kind of a government license.
But this isn't a matter for the government. It wasn't the government that fired Don Imus. It was CBS, in response to a lot of public pressure, after he made that deplorable joke about the Rutgers women's basketball team.
XM officials, I mean, that statement that was read on the air, that seemed pretty tepid. It was pretty lame. There wasn't even a slap on the wrist, no suspension. They're kind of saying, well, you know, we're going to -- we think this is OK.
And I don't think it's OK. You don't think it's OK. But where are all the critics who demanded Imus' head on a platter? We haven't really heard from them, have we?
ZAHN: Well, this also is a radio entity that sells itself as a place that has absolutely no limits. If the response was as tepid as it was, does it mean that they are not worried about this at all?
KURTZ: Well, I do think that, you know, you pay for satellite radio, so that puts it in a somewhat different category. And it can get pretty raunchy on some satellite radio channels. That's why Howard Stern is having a good time.
And I have a pretty high tolerance for that sort of thing, if you're paying for it. An XM spokesman told me today, in fact, that there are certain channels you can block if you don't want that kind of language, that kind of humor.
But, still, we're talking here about joking about sexually assaulting the secretary of state. I mean, that's so far over any conceivable line, that it's just amazing to me that there isn't more of an uproar about this. Al Sharpton, why hasn't he held a press conference? Why hasn't he demanded to be on your show? He had a lot to say about Imus. He doesn't seem to have anything to say about these comments aimed at Republican women.
ZAHN: Could it be that they were smart enough to apologize quickly? That's, in the end, what a lot of people said Don Imus should have done right away.
KURTZ: That is true.
But, just watching that apology on the air, it seems to me to be a pretty tepid apology. It wasn't the kind of full-throated, from- the-heart apology. They didn't really seem all that torn up about it, frankly.
Now, there's one other thing that kind of isolates satellite radio in that, unlike on terrestrial radio, where -- where shows have sponsors -- and sponsors, you will remember, starting pulling out from MSNBC and CBS Radio when Imus got into the trouble that he got into -- on satellite radio, they make much of their money from the subscription fees.
So, you don't have the same kind of market pressure, advertiser pressure, that might convince XM officials, at the very least, to want to give these guys a couple of weeks off without pay.
ZAHN: All right.
So, what you're saying, if the listeners out there aren't as appalled as you and I are tonight, there is no line drawn in the sand, and, if these same guys had gone on and talked about assassinating the president, that would go unnoticed, too?
KURTZ: I think a lot of this has to do with media attention.
Most people did not hear Don Imus made the "nappy-headed hos" remarks that came at 6:00 in the morning on his show. But -- and most people didn't hear this, because most people aren't necessarily tuned into that show on XM Radio.
But, when it hit the covers of "TIME" and "Newsweek", the Imus controversy got so hot, and there was so much public attention -- in fact, I said on this show -- you know, there was a lot of talk about, we are going to have this great dialogue, this great national debate about race, and toxic culture, and all of that.
And I said, well, once Imus is gone, that dialogue is going to go away. And it pretty much has. I think the media have a responsibility -- "The New York Times" did a story last week about other shock jocks who are still using very foul language and attacking people -- media have a responsibility to keep this on the front burner, unless, you know, the decision is, we don't really care, and we are just going to burn somebody at the stake, figuratively speaking, every once in a while just for our amusement.
ZAHN: I guess we will see over time.
Howard Kurtz, thanks. Appreciate it.
KURTZ: Thank you, Paula.
ZAHN: We are going to get straight to our "Out in the Open" panel tonight: Air America radio talk show host Rachel Maddow, CNN contributor Roland Martin, and syndicated radio's Lars Larson, host of "The Lars Larson Show: Right on the Left Coast."
All right, team, let's listen once again to the incredibly crude comments made on "The Opie & Anthony show."
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE OPIE & ANTHONY SHOW")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just imagine the horror in Condoleezza Rice's face...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When she realizes what is going on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... as you were just, like, holding her down and (EXPLETIVE DELETED) her.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ZAHN: I can't even listen to this.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: It is so sick.
I know you're a big proponent of free speech. When you heard that, what went through your mind?
RACHEL MADDOW, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I think that these guys should get fired.
But I thought that Don Imus should get fired, too. I don't think that I want the government establishing speech codes. But the way I understand free speech is that you have a right to say whatever you want, but you don't have a right to get paid to say it on the radio or to say it on television.
And, whether or not the outrage is going to be at the same level, or higher or -- or lower than it was for Imus, I think that crosses the line. I think that XM should fire them. I think it's a political decision to them as to whether or not they do.
ZAHN: As they're in big merger talks with Sirius Radio. It's a huge deal.
MADDOW: It's in their interests, very much, to try to keep government regulation off of satellite radio. They would like the FCC to not get involved.
You are going to be able to make a much better argument for keeping the FCC away if you say, we are responsible enough to do the right thing as a company.
ZAHN: Roland, did these guys cross the line?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, of course they crossed the line.
The line they crossed was a line of decency. And that's what the issue is. But I think we have to separate these guys and the Don Imus situation, because it's about platform. Don Imus was on terrestrial radio, licensed by the federal government.
These guys are on satellite radio. It is a pay service. There is not a significant distinction, Paula, between XM Satellite Radio, a pay service, and, let's say, HBO, Showtime.
ZAHN: Even when you're talking about harming the first lady and the secretary of state?
MARTIN: Paula, have you watched -- have you watched any HBO comedy specials?
ZAHN: Sure.
MARTIN: Have you watched any -- that's my whole point. Follow me here.
When you have a pay service, you are paying for the service. It's no different if you choose to watch, you know, the Playboy Channel. You're paying for it. I'm not excusing it. I do believe they should be fired. It was grossly disrespectful. But the platforms are completely different from them and Don Imus. That is the distinction.
(CROSSTALK)
MADDOW: I don't think that the government licensing the airways on which Don Imus was broadcasting his show makes a difference as to whether or not this should be censored. I mean, this is a decision that is not going to be made by the government. It's going to be made by the company. And the company is going to have to decide how gross this is.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Rachel, it did make a difference, because, again, the public reaction was different. People use the argument that these are the public airwaves.
There are things said every day on cable television that's grossly offensive, that, because it is pay television, we don't have the same reaction if it happened on ABC or CBS.
ZAHN: All right. So, Lars, given the fact the FCC doesn't get involved with something like this on satellite radio, how far can these guys push the envelope?
LARS LARSON, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, they can push it a long ways. And, in fact, it is free speech.
But I'm not going to defend them. I'm actually on Rachel Maddow's -- on the same page, we will find ourselves. But the licensing issue is really a strange one, because the FCC does license the frequencies on which satellite radio is broadcast.
The fact that the satellite companies treat those as subscription channels I don't think should make a difference. If we are going to use the licensing argument, the FCC licenses those frequencies. The public owns those frequencies.
Opie and Anthony, though should be fired. The fact is, is that, to have somebody on your air and choose to have him on, advocating raping women is -- is just outrageous.
And I'm -- I'm with Howard Kurtz. It seems strange that somebody like Al Sharpton, who made so much political hay out of Don Imus, isn't out there defending Condoleezza Rice. You have got to wonder why that dog is not barking.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Roland, jump in here.
MARTIN: Paula, Paula...
ZAHN: Yes, go ahead.
MARTIN: OK.
You want to talk about Al Sharpton, that's fine. Where's the National Organization for Women? Where's Concerned Women For America?
LARSON: Good question.
MADDOW: You guys... MARTIN: Where's Phyllis Schlafly?
My whole point is, just like with Don Imus, when I criticized him and his groups initially, we're sitting here saying, where's the -- Sharpton? Sharpton was not the only person protesting Imus. Where are the...
LARSON: You're right.
MARTIN: ... feminist groups, who should be demanding...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: ... sexism?
LARSON: There's not going to defend a Republican woman.
MADDOW: You guys...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: There's the ones who should be leading this fight, not Al Sharpton.
(CROSSTALK)
MADDOW: She's a Republican, and so nobody will be offended by this.
Come on. This story is five minutes old.
(CROSSTALK)
MADDOW: This story has happened very quickly. There's going to be a lot of outrage. You're not going to be -- there's going to be no shortage of outrage about this for us to impugn against. It's just not the way it's going to go.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Stay right there. I have got a lot more to talk about.
We are going to turn away to what may be one of the biggest political stories of the year. Presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani has an in-your-face message for the millions of Republicans who are dead-set against a woman's right to choose.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You have to respect the fact that their conscience is as strong as yours is about this, and they are the ones that are the most affected by it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Out in the open next: Rudy Giuliani's big gamble, will it cost him the White House?
And, then a little bit later on: one of the most dramatic courtroom moments we have ever brought out in the open. It will break your heart.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Tonight, the leading Republican contender for the White House is defying a lot of people in his party and firmly bringing out in the open his position on abortion.
Now, when he was mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani, who is Catholic, supported abortion rights. But, for the past few months, on the campaign trail and in last week's Republican debate, Giuliani has struggled to explain his position.
Well, today, in a major speech, Giuliani told students and faculty at Houston Baptist University, as well as Republican voters, exactly where he stands.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIULIANI: I believe abortion is wrong. I think it is morally wrong. And, if I were asked my advice by someone who was considering an abortion, I would tell them not to have the abortion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: So, while he personally objects to abortion, Giuliani also believes it's up to every woman to decide for herself whether or not to have one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIULIANI: I believe you have to respect their viewpoint and give them a level of choice. I would grant women the right to make that choice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Despite his proclaimed personal opposition to abortion, Giuliani did make several donations to Planned Parenthood in 1990.
That is just one of the things that doesn't sit too well with a Catholic League president. That happens to be William Donahue, who joins me now.
So, what is the problem you have with a guy being honest, saying, hey, look, I think it's morally wrong; I'm personally opposed to it; but I still think women should have the right to choose?
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Who am I to tell them what to do with their bodies?
WILLIAM DONAHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Well, you know, quite frankly, we don't say -- if he said, I'm opposed to racial segregation, but there shouldn't be any laws against it, I think we should just have dialogue, no one would believe him.
Look, he's -- he can come out and say, I'm personally opposed. We want to know, what -- what is it that he is opposed to? He says that he hates abortion. What is it about abortion that he hates? If, in fact, we're talking about innocent human life, then it would seem to me that he has to err on the side of liberty, the liberty of the baby to be born.
Look, he could have come out today, he raised expectations. He could have come out today and say, I want some restrictions on abortion. The American people don't want to go back to pre Roe v. Wade. Nor do they want abortion on demand. He could have said third trimester abortions, count me out. He gave us nothing.
ZAHN: But he does say those things on his Web site. And we're going to put on the screen what you would see if you bother to venture there and it says "supports reasonable restrictions on abortions such as parental notification with a judicial bypass and a ban on partial birth abortion except when the life of the mother is at stake. Why isn't that good enough for you?
What else do you need from him.
DONOHUE: I'll tell you why. Because even with the ban on partial birth abortion is still legal in this country for a doctor to dismember the mother's womb at nine months. That is still legal in this country. He could have said I'm opposed to that hideous procedure. He gives money to the Planned Parenthood and he says the reason I do is not to support abortion. I want women to have choices.
Where are the cancelled checks, Rudy Giuliani, about money that he gave to the Crisis Pregnancy Centers to dissuade a woman from having an abortion? In 1989 he said if my daughter was going to have an abortion I would try to dissuade her from having one. But if she decided to have an abortion, I would give her the money for it.
This is not a man who is speaking to pro-life people. Today he dropped anchor with the pro choice people. Let him stay there.
ZAHN: What is going to happen to the Catholic vote?
DONOHUE: The Catholic vote is the only vote that really matters, quite frankly. Since 1980, the Protestants have always voted for the Republican, the Jews have always voted for Democrats and the Catholics have voted for whoever gets into the White House. Since 1980. So they're the big prize. And since a large segment of the Catholic vote is in fact pro life they're going to have a lot of qualms. I don't say what happened today was terminal but ...
ZAHN: But your reasoning there, you would be the guy voting for Rudy Giuliani. Are you going to vote for him?
DONOHUE: I don't know what the choices are. It if it's Rudy Giuliani against somebody like Hillary Clinton, who has never found an abortion she couldn't justify, then it is pretty easy, I would vote for Rudy Giuliani.
ZAHN: Regardless of your criticism of him?
DONOHUE: Yes, because Hillary likes partial birth abortion. She just said it was wrong to ban it. Same with Barack Obama.
ZAHN: All right. Well, they certainly wouldn't characterize their position that way. But the fact remains there are very few single issue voters out there. We know abortion is not at the top of the list. Terror is. So will this cost him the nomination?
DONOHUE: I don't think it's terminal. I think it has wounded him. And he had an opportunity to say today I still defend a woman's right to choose.
ZAHN: He did say that.
DONOHUE: But I want some - he should have given us some bullet point restrictions. What restrictions? He couldn't say dismemberment of a child nine months along is illegal. Or should be illegal. He just said I'm going to have restrictions. What restrictions? Why wasn't he specific?
ZAHN: He, once again on his Web site, does say he supports a ban of partial birth abortion.
DONOHUE: When somebody writes a check of $900, four checks, to Planned Parenthood and doesn't give money to Crisis Pregnancy Centers. I know what choice he really wants.
ZAHN: That's what you think, William Donohue. I bet you that's not what he's going to say.
DONOHUE: Well, of course. Rudy's too smart to say that.
ZAHN: Thank you very much for dropping by tonight.
DONOHUE: Thank you.
ZAHN: Appreciate it.
There was an incredible courtroom confrontation today. Just listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You asked my what I was looking for. What would I say? My son. And you would just give me this smirk. Knowing all of the time you didn't have him, you had killed him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: "Out in the Open" next, a story you have got to see. Why does a man who admitted he murdered his two-year-old son get to walk away free and clear? Then a little bit later on. Should your kids be kept out of the movies that have smoking? Should movies that have smoking be rated R. What do you think, Bill?
DONOHUE: I think it's insane. Sodomy is OK. They're going to worry about smoking?
ZAHN: We're going to debate that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Right now, one of the most intense and most emotional stories we've ever brought "Out in the Open."
Today in a New Jersey courtroom, a dramatic scene, the grieving enraged mother of a murdered toddler confronted a killer who happens to be the child's father. Incredibly, he only spent 20 months in jail for the crime. And today a judge set him free. Allan Chernoff was in the courtroom today. And he heard and he saw it all.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The suffering of La Shawn McCoywhose two-year-old boy was murdered at the hands of his father seems unbearable.
LA SHAWN MCCOY, CURTIS MCCOY'S MOTHER: I don't know how to get rid of this pain I have. And I pray, I pray, I do, I pray that one day I could think about my baby and not feel the pain, that I can just feel happiness.
CHERNOFF: For 16 years the murder of two year old Curtis McCoy was an unsolved mystery. In 1989 the young boy was visiting the father, Curtis Williams, who lived apart from the mother.
(on camera): Williams told police that he had lost his son while shopping here in downtown Newark. When he reached back to grab the boy's hand, he said little Curtis was gone.
(voice-over): Curtis' mother couldn't believe it. She kept pressuring police. And finally two years ago Williams was charged with murder. But prosecutors saw they had little evidence. La Shawn had to know where her son's body was. So a plea was struck. Williams would reveal the burial site in return for a deal that could gain his freedom from prison.
But days of digging and sifting dirt here under the New Jersey Turnpike in Jersey City yielded nothing. Experts said the small body had probably decomposed. In court this morning La Shawn begged the judge to overturn the plea bargain to which she had agreed.
MCCOY: I need justice served, your honor. I need some kind of closure. Curtis walking out of here won't be justice served.
CHERNOFF: Then she turned to Curtis Williams.
MCCOY: Now what do I have? What do I have to ease the pain? Nothing. And you stand there, you can't say nothing? You can't shed a tear? Because you are so cold hearted. CHERNOFF: Prosecutor Deborah Simon said she had done the best she could under the circumstances.
DEBORAH SIMON, ASSISTANT PROSECUTOR: Sometimes the strengths and weaknesses of your case require you to make a deal with the devil. And unfortunately that's the position we were in.
CHERNOFF: Judge Peter Vazquez signed off.
JUDGE PETER VAZQUEZ, NEW JERSEY SUPERIOR COURT: Suffice it to say that a plea arrangement such as this would never, never, be reached without the consent and the understanding of the victim's family. I would never have accepted this plea if that had not been represented to me.
CHERNOFF: La Shawn McCoy was distraught.
(on camera): The plea bargain. Do you feel that justice has been done?
JEFFREY JABLONSKI, WILLIAMS' DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I do, taking into account everything that has transpired in this case, absolutely.
CHERNOFF (voice-over): But La Shawn McCoy says her 18 year search for justice has been fruitless. Because tonight, Curtis Williams who confessed to killing his two-year-old son is a free man after having spent just 20 months behind bars. Allan Chernoff, Jersey City, New Jersey.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And the prosecutor admits it would have been tough to get conviction in this case because there was no forensic evidence.
We're going to change focus now and head to the movies. I'm going to ask my panel whether movies with smoking deserve an R rating. And a little bit later on, one of the people you should know, he's helping Big Blue, the computer maker IBM, turn a little bit greener. We'll show you when we get back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Are your kids going to the movies this weekend? Is what they're seeing teaching them smoking is glamorous? Well, the people who rate movies have just announced that smoking is joining the list of things like nudity, sex, violence and dirty words that can slap a picture with an R rating. That brings a lot of debate out in the open.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN (voice-over): Back in the '60s the smoke curling from Ann Bancroft's cigarette in "The Graduate" was, well, attractive.
DUSTIN HOFFMAN, ACTOR: Mrs. Robinson, you're trying to seduce me. ZAHN: These days, though, a lot of people think that smoke is downright obnoxious. Even so, when Hollywood updated the story in "Rumor Has It," the Mrs. Robinson character, played by Shirley McClain, was still puffing away. Should an innocuous PG-13 comedy get an R rating because of that cigarette?
Well, the Motion Picture Association of America is lighting up that debate and more. It says from now on movie raters will consider, quote, "depictions that glamorize smoking or movies that feature pervasive smoking outside of historic or other mitigating context."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's walk very carefully through these next few moments.
ZAHN: Does that mean the Oscar nominated "Good Night and Good Luck" about chain smoking journalist Edward R. Murrow can its PG rating despite pervasive smoking.
And there's nothing historic about Cruella Deville. So does her constant smoking make "101 Dalmations " an R. Does it glamorize smoking?
Before you answer. Consider this. Research from Dartmouth University's medical school shows that 52 percent, more than half teenagers who start smoking say they do because they see it in movies.
HOFFMAN: Look, I think I should be going.
ZAHN: And lighting up on screen is probably more common than you think. In that brand new Dartmouth medical study researchers looked at 534 recent box office hits, many rated PG-13. And 74 percent of them contain smoking.
Back to our "Out in the Open" panel. Those are quite some numbers for us all to absorb. Rachel Maddow, Roland Martin, Lars Larson. Welcome back.
OK, Rachel. Let's put back up on the screen what the president of the Motion Picture Association of America -- that's hard on a Friday night after a long week -- explained today that would actually throw a film into an R rating.
So given those standards you see up on the screen. Let's take a look at a clip again from "101 Dalmatians" with Cruella Deville.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... perfectly wretched.
Where are they, where are they?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who, Cruella?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The puppies.
(END VIDEO CLIP) MADDOW: It's a weird kind of glamour.
ZAHN: I know but should chain smoking earn that film an R rating or an NC-17.
MADDOW: I think if it's glamorizing smoking, I think that's kind of missing the point.
I think if you're a person when you see a cigarette or see somebody smoking it makes you want to smoke, then it doesn't matter if ...
ZAHN: Fifty two percent of these kids say they smoke because they see it in the movies.
MADDOW: Honestly, I'm not a smoker, but even seeing the movie "The Insider" which is all about the evils of big tobacco, made me want to smoke. There's something about seeing cigarettes that makes a person want to smoke.
ZAHN: I'm sorry. I don't have any for you tonight, Rachel.
MADDOW: I don't want any, but I did then.
ZAHN: But Lars, what do these ratings really hurt if they're just saying that providing information to the parents to make choices about movies their kids are going to see? What does it hurt?
LARSON: It's a nanny state. Again, it's not the government agency but it's the Motion Picture Association trying to act like your parents. If your parents want to make decisions about which movies you see, that's fine. But to say that if a movie glamorizes smoking it gets an R does that mean if we have a terrorist who smokes cigarettes and he gets his head blown off then it doesn't get the R because it is not glamorous because the bad guy was the smoker and not the good guy? Tom Hanks smoked cigarettes in "Saving Private Ryan" which got an R for other reasons but why in the world do we want the movie industry trying to tell us what we should do in our private lives or not?
I want parents to tell kids how to approach tobacco, which is, by the way, still legal.
ZAHN: Apparently the kids in America aren't getting the messages given the staggering numbers Roland Martin. So the fact is, how else do you put pressure on these folks making movies not to have so much smoking in them if we know kids are so impressionable?
Do they have a responsibility?
MARTIN: Paula, I have a four letter for the MPAA. D-U-M-B. This is dumb. Look, Paula. I am allergic to smoke. I hate smoke. Can't stand it. Let's be honest here. The two leading cause -- the leading cause for teens being killed? Speeding. So, what the MPAA should is if they're really killing concerned. Let's cut all the car chases. Let's cut all the scenes out of movies because if a kid sees their favorite star going 90 miles an hour down a street then they're being impacted.
We don't see folks wearing seatbelts in movies. This is absolutely dumb.
MADDOW: The big secret here is that the rating system is stupid. The rating system is anonymous people with non public means rating things under terms that aren't public in ways that hugely affect what movies are profitable and therefore what movies get made. The rating system itself is archaic and dumb and weird.
ZAHN: OK. But do you have a problem with so much gratuitous smoking on screen?
LARSON: No.
MARTIN: Paula.
ZAHN: Roland, what?
MARTIN: So, so, let's cut out all of the sex scenes because of HIV/AIDS infection. Let's cut out all teen pregnancy. If you really want to sit down and analyze all the negative ills in our society, guess what? We can't have any movies. They will not exist. And so at some point you have to have common sense. We're going to the movie theater. We're going to see something on the big screen. It's called escapism.
MADDOW: If we're going to have the rating system that we have it ought to include smoking and trans fats and seatbelts and all of those things. But maybe we ought to realize that the harm we would cause our society by getting rid of all of these depictions of things that we find to be bad for you would be worse than actually having to endure those scenes in movies.
ZAHN: Let's encourage our viewers to take the healthy choice. Just watch cable news.
Rachel Maddow, Roland Martin, Lars Larson, thank you all.
Oh, my God, she just faked smoking. That's very bad. You're glamorizing it.
MADDOW: I'm R-rated right now.
MARTIN: That's right.
ZAHN: LARRY KING LIVE coming up in just a few minutes. Hi, Larry. What are you going to be talking about tonight?
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: I feel like lighting up again.
ZAHN: No, we don't want you to do that, Larry, your heart is too valuable.
KING: Been 20 years.
ZAHN: And you've got it working right now, so don't.
KING: Coming up, Paula, will Paris Hilton go to jail? And what will it be like for her if she does. We have got a reporter at the jail in question. And an ex Hollywood madam who did time at that jail's sister facility.
Plus the ultimate high society insider, my man, Dominick Dunn who is friends with the Hiltons, by the way. All at the top of the hour on LARRY KING LIVE, Paula, and have a great weekend.
ZAHN: You too. I hope he gives you the inside scoop on what's going on in that family.
See you in a little bit. Computers are everywhere these days and they can guzzle lots of electricity. That's why the guy we are going to meet in a minute is a person we all should know. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: And welcome back. We're going to take a quick biz break. Wall Street did bounce back today. The Dow is closing up 111 points. The NASDAQ rose 28. S&P, up 15.
Allstate plans to quit writing new homeowner policies in California in July. The insurance giant says it had to weigh the risk in the catastrophe prone state.
DaimlerChrysler recalling its 2005 Dodge Caravan and Chrysler Town and Country minivans to fix faulty air bags. The company says the bags may not deploy because of corrosion on the sensor. The recall involves more than 400,000 vehicles.
Now, you may not realize this, but the super fast computers that we all take for granted use a ton of energy and can be harmful to our environment. You're about to meet someone who is taking the first steps toward solving some of those problems.
Miles O'Brien has the tonight's to "People You Should Know."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): No question Hollywood and lately Washington have rolled out the red carpet for green thinking. And now seems another is enticing corporate America. Big Blue, IBM, is diving in with new ways to make its big computers less power thirsty.
The company's chief technologist is Bernie Myerson.
BERNIE MEYERSON, IBM: We have now reached a tipping point where the energy bill associated with simply feeding and with actually cooling servers with in the very short term, a matter of three to five years. That energy bill will exceed the total amount of money spent buying all of those servers world wide in a year. O'BRIEN: Myerson and IBM created a tiny high speed chip that transmits the equivalent of a high definition, full length feature film in a singe second. That's about 160 types faster than the chip in most home computers. And fast as it is, it is not power hungry. The chip runs on only 2.5 watts. That's about a third of what your night light needs.
And while the experts like Bernie Meyerson does their part, you can do yours. Shut off your computer when you're done. You will use less power, save some money and maybe the planet as well. Miles O'Brien, CNN New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: That's good advice, Miles.
So we're minutes away from LARRY KING LIVE. Tonight, will Paris Hilton really end up going to jail? That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us here tonight. On Monday, is America ready for a Mormon president? We're going to bring American's anxiety about Mitt Romney's religion right out in the open. Why is a problem now more than 45 years after John F. Kennedy faced and overcame the same kind of questions about his Catholic faith.
That's all coming up here on Monday. We'll be back same time same place then. Have a great weekend. Thanks again for dropping by tonight.
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