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Paula Zahn Now
John McCain's Temper; Michael Moore Under Fire Over New Documentary
Aired May 21, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody. Glad to have you with us tonight.
Here are some of the stories we're bringing out in the open. Did you know that John McCain has a volcanic temper? And it's gotten him into a whole lot of trouble this time around. What would it mean if he gets to the White House? And could it potential cost him both?
Did America's foreign policy really cause 9/11? Well, we're going to bring a Republican presidential candidate's inflammatory charge right out in the open.
And filmmaker Michael Moore's newest documentary is getting rave reviews, but could it also get him thrown in jail?
One of the biggest political fights of the year is out in the open tonight, and so are the fault lines that could kill immigration reform. But, just a little bit ago, the Senate's delicate new compromise showed a surprising amount of strength. Sixty-nine senators voted to keep working on the plan to secure our borders, determine who comes in and who, if anyone, has to go home.
It was an important first test, but can this compromise actually hold?
Let's go to the woman with all the answers tonight, our congressional correspondent, Dana Bash -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paula, it's going to be a while before we can answer that question, whether this bipartisan immigration proposal can hold, because Senate leaders agreed late today to devote two full weeks of debate to immigration.
Now, that is a nod to critics who say that they needed ample time to deliberate on this very complex issue, but it also could potentially endanger what negotiators call a delicate compromise.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH (voice over): It began with a plea from the Senate majority leader.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER: If we put rhetoric aside, we have the opportunity to pass a law that treats people fairly and strengthens our economy. BASH: Yet, in the next breath, the Senate's top Democrat started ticking off flaws in the bipartisan immigration plan, things he wants changed, like a temporary-worker program that allows 400,000 workers or more into the U.S. per year. Harry Reid wants that cut in half.
REID: We must not create a law that guarantees a permanent underclass, people who are here to work in low-wage, low-skill jobs.
BASH: It was a telltale sign of the wrenching debate ahead. Both liberals and conservatives have long lists of complaints about what is in the nearly 400-page immigration bill.
SEN. JIM BUNNING (R), KENTUCKY: No matter what you call it, X, Y or Z visas, this bill will grant amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants all over this country.
SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R), ALABAMA: I want to share a few things about how a bill should become law.
BASH: Leading Republican critic Jeff Sessions displayed a poster evoking the cartoon "Schoolhouse Rock."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SCHOOLHOUSE ROCK")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR (singing): I'm just a bill. Yes, I'm only a bill. And I'm sitting here on Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: He scolded negotiators for using backroom wheeling and dealing, not open committee hearings, to hatch the plan.
Already, Republicans who helped craft the immigration proposal are under fire back home. Addressing his state party's convention over the weekend, Georgia's Saxby Chambliss talked up the immigration plan and got booed by fellow Republicans.
SEN. SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R), GEORGIA: We have got to face the fact that we have got to create a meaningful, truly temporary-worker program for those segments of our economy that need temporary workers.
(BOOING)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Almost drowned out, with folks not necessarily agreeing with what he had to say.
BASH: Right.
ZAHN: Dana, before you went into the piece, you told me it was too early to tell exactly where this bill will go. But, certainly, you have a sense of what direction the wind is blowing in. What -- what are you hearing?
BASH: The wind is blowing very hard in a lot of directions, Paula.
You know, this bill really does have a lot of hurdles to clear before it does pass the Senate, about a dozen, maybe more, amendments that senators from both sides of the aisle are going to offer.
For example, Democrats actually are going to offer the first. They insist that, the way that this is written, the temporary workers who come in, that will hurt the American worker, because it would drive down their wages. That would -- will be the first thing we will see voted on tomorrow.
But there's an interesting dynamic, in terms of how this process is going to play out when it comes to the Senate. There are going to be two full weeks of debate.
In between, there's a Memorial Day break. That's next week. What that means is that senators are going to be debating, and they're going to go home. And they're likely going to get earfuls from constituents about this issue, which, as you know, is highly emotional.
That really could change the fate of this when they return. And, if they finish that, who knows what's going to happen in the House, because that's a huge, huge hill to climb for this particular piece of legislation.
ZAHN: We will be watching its fate right along with you.
Dana, thanks so much.
BASH: Thank you.
ZAHN: And, no matter how the immigration reform fight turns out, both legal and illegal immigration are already changing America, and changing it dramatically.
No matter who you are, where you live, those changes will affect you more and more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN (voice-over): The face of America is changing, because the faces of America are changing.
Right now, out of a total population of 300 million, one in three -- that's 100 million people -- belongs to a minority group. Twenty- one percent of America's minorities live in just one state, California. Another 12 percent live in Texas. Minorities outnumber whites in four states, California, Texas, New Mexico, and Hawaii, plus the District of Columbia.
At just over 44 million, Hispanics are the country's biggest minority. Blacks rank second, at just over 40 million, followed by nearly 15 million people of Asian descent. Hispanics are also the fastest-growing minority, followed by Asians. Hispanics are projected to be one-quarter of the U.S. population by the year 2050. In the same year, only half of Americans will be white, compared to 66 percent now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And here is one more dramatic contrast. Right now, 80 percent of the Americans over the age of 60 are white, but nearly half of our country's children under the age of 5 are Hispanic, black, or Asian.
The changing face of America is also reflected in my first panel tonight, CNN contributor Roland Martin, Raul Reyes, an attorney and columnist. And James Edwards is a conservative talk radio host.
Glad to have all three of you with us tonight.
RAUL REYES, "USA TODAY" BOARD OF CONTRIBUTORS MEMBER: Thank you, Paula.
JAMES EDWARDS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you for having us back, Paula.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Glad to be here.
ZAHN: My pleasure.
So, James, I want to start with you tonight. You have said that you believe this change in the number of minorities blossoming in this country will turn us into a Third World country.
EDWARDS: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Why not accept the -- the richness and the diversity that this brings to this country?
EDWARDS: Well, first of all, because my primary interest is to protect and safeguard the interests of my own family.
I believe that white Americans are in for the fight of their lives here. I think America is becoming balkanized, and we're being robbed of having a future in the very nation that our ancestors carved from the wilderness. And you have got to understand, Paula, that...
ZAHN: What are you losing right now, James? What are you afraid of?
EDWARDS: Well, let me tell you something.
The reason why American is a First World nation is because we have a First World population. And that's changing due to these illegal alien invasions, as well as the explosive birth rates that these minorities bring with them. What we're losing is that these people aren't assimilating. The melting pot has gone from a boil to a dull simmer. These folks aren't embracing our heroes and our traditions.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: My God. You have got Roland Martin -- this is pretty serious stuff -- you got him laughing. I mean, this is...
EDWARDS: Absolutely, yes.
ZAHN: It's a serious charge, Roland. He's talking about white people being in the fight of their lives; the country is becoming increasingly balkanized.
Are you crazy that illegal immigrants are absorbing the kind of dollars they are in our health care system today? Does that bring you pleasure?
MARTIN: Well, first of all -- first of all, Paula, one of the reasons I'm laughing is because I always laugh at jokes. And James is certainly a joke.
Hey, James, first of all, let me correct you. There was a time when you, as a white man, was a minority here in America. So, you can ask American Indians that.
(CROSSTALK)
EDWARDS: Let me tell you something, buddy. I'm a minority in Memphis, Tennessee, right now.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: One second, one second, one second, one second.
It's very -- it's very simple. The fact of the matter is, America is changing. We're not going to become a Third World country. You have African-American, Hispanics, Asians, who are Americans, who believe in this country, who have the same ideals.
What we're simply dealing with, from James' perspective, is a scared bigot, a racist. That's what he is. And, so, it's just nonsense to think that, oh, my God, whites are going to freak out and just lose it because the rest of us are going to just overtake the nation.
Hey, not only that, Paula. The reality is, the birth rate of whites is dropping. So, James, if you're concerned, maybe what you ought to say is, some whites should start getting together and having some kids to boost the population.
EDWARDS: Well, I'm certainly doing my -- my part in that, Roland.
But I will tell you, you know, it's interesting, the hatred and vitriol you have with my argument.
MARTIN: And that's -- then, that's scary, if you're having kids. EDWARDS: I'm wondering why you're -- you're so offended by my message.
I figured a man like you would be very much in favor of the freedom of speech. But you know as well as I do that these folks are not just fleeing the Third World. They are importing the Third World culture with them.
MARTIN: I'm in favor for freedom of speech, not ignorance.
ZAHN: All right.
EDWARDS: And I don't want to trade down.
ZAHN: Let's let Raul enter into this fray.
And one of the points James was making, that the biggest criticism he has of these illegal immigrants that probably are going to do -- some of them will try to go through the process of becoming legal -- are not assimilating into our culture. Some are refusing to learn English. Some are refusing to accept any of the traditions at all of America.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Are you critical of those folks? Or should they try to become more American?
REYES: No, I'm not.
ZAHN: And do you understand why a lot of whites are offended by this?
REYES: I think I do.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Or, if not offended, intimidated by it?
REYES: Yes, I do.
I think people feel maybe a certain amount of cultural isolation. They feel a little left out of their own country.
But, first of all, he talks about assimilation. And, actually, I will tell you something. Most Hispanics are different from all the other ethnic groups, because you know what? We don't assimilate, which is when you adopt a new culture and leave your old culture behind.
We acculturate. That means we adopt a new culture, but we retain elements of our old culture. So, in a sense, we have the best of both worlds.
But, in -- in response to one thing he was talking about, about the relationship between illegal immigrants and high-crime rates, and, you know, the fears about crime, you know, this country has a long history of fears of immigrants and fear of immigrant crimes.
But I have read studies done by the FBI, the General Accounting Office, Robert Sampson up at Harvard. And, you know, there really is not a link between illegal immigration...
(CROSSTALK)
REYES: ... illegal immigration and a high crime rate.
(CROSSTALK)
REYES: And, in fact, particularly in certain border cities, such as San Diego and El Paso, that receive constant influxes of illegal immigrants, they have lower crime rates.
EDWARDS: Paula, if I might -- if I might...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Paula -- hey, Paula, as a journalist...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Paula, as a journalist...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Hey, Paula, I think we have to correct something here. First of all, we're talking about 100 million minorities.
Do not give the impression, because James was certainly trying to do so, that most of these folks are illegal. You're speaking of 40 million African-Americans, who are Americans.
REYES: Right.
MARTIN: You're talking about a significant number of Hispanics who are Americans, Asians who are Americans.
And, so, when James criticizes these 100 million, what he's doing, he's criticizing Americans, people who believe in the Constitution.
And, as Barbara Jordan said when she was speaking about Watergate, she said, this Constitution initially was not meant for me. She said, but I believe in it. It is whole. It is complete.
So, James, when you insult me as a black man, you insult America.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: All right. (CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: A final word on that, James...
EDWARDS: Not everyone -- not everyone in the world can live in the United States.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: ... the ones that are illegally -- legally, not illegally.
EDWARDS: Listen, not everyone in the world can live in the United States. And everything that's happening is happening at the expense of European-Americans.
If you want more information, go to thepoliticalcesspool.org.
And, Roland, you're a great ham.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: Hey, James, go back to Europe.
REYES: James, you know what? Just to throw this in...
MARTIN: Go back to Europe.
REYES: ... the first two Americans who died in Iraq, they were illegal immigrants. So, if that's what you're afraid of, those weren't Third World values.
(CROSSTALK)
EDWARDS: Illegal immigration is -- it's hurting all Americans, including black-Americans...
(CROSSTALK)
EDWARDS: ... and black Americans first.
(CROSSTALK)
REYES: ... Third World values.
ZAHN: All right, gentlemen, I have got to cut it off there.
Roland Martin will be back in a little bit.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: But we need to say thanks to Raul Reyes and James Edwards.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: And they're still talking.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: What are they saying?
And something about senator and presidential candidate John McCain is slipping out in the open more and more these days. Did you know he apparently has quite a temper? What is it he said this time that's gotten him in so much trouble? And what would it mean if he's in the White House?
We're also going to explore one of the most inflammatory allegations from the Republican presidential debate: Did Americans' foreign policy bring on 9/11?
And look who's at it again. Why does Michael Moore think you can get better health care in Cuban than here?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Out in the open tonight: John McCain's volcanic temper.
The Republican presidential candidate has always had a reputation as being fiery, but resorting to a certain four-letter word, one that begins with F and ends with K, in an argument with another senator has McCain's temper back in the headlines tonight.
So, will it make any difference with voters?
Tom Foreman has the story from Washington for us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We will track him down. We will capture -- we will bring him to justice. And I will follow him to the gates of hell.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A fired-up John McCain at the first Republican presidential debate, vowing to hunt down Osama bin Laden, and a heated John McCain late last week, behind closed doors in Congress.
According to first-hand accounts, the senator from Arizona got into a shouting match with fellow Republican John Cornyn over the new immigration bill. The senator from Texas, who's against the bill, went after McCain, slamming him for missing negotiations while campaigning out on the trial. That's when McCain fired back with an "F you."
Cornyn says McCain later apologized for the outburst.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: Senator McCain apologized to me afterwards. And I -- I have to say that we have probably all said things that we have later regretted.
FOREMAN: This isn't the first time McCain's grown heated in the halls of Congress. A few months ago, he got testy with reporters questioning him about an Iraq war funding bill he was writing. Again, McCain came back later to apologize.
After the senator's joke about bombing Iran made headlines...
MCCAIN: You know, that old Beach Boys song, "Bomb Iran, you know?
(singing): Bomb, bomb, bomb...
FOREMAN: ... McCain once again fired back.
MCCAIN: Lighten up and get a life.
QUESTION: You don't think that was insensitive or...
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: Insensitive to what? The Iranians?
(LAUGHTER)
MCCAIN: My response is, lighten up and get a life. I will continue to joke with my veteran friends.
FOREMAN: And a recent appearance on "The Daily Show" got loud.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE DAILY SHOW WITH JON STEWART")
JON STEWART, HOST: Let me explain it this way. What I'm saying is, what's less supportive of them...
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: ... very unfair of...
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: ... when these people are being told they're fighting in a war..
STEWART: Settle down for a second.
(LAUGHTER)
MCCAIN: That -- no, you settle down.
STEWART: What's less supportive...
MCCAIN: ... that they're fighting in a war that they lost.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: McCain became famous for his straight talk during his first run for the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FEBRUARY 15, 2000) MCCAIN: Five United States senators, Vietnam veterans, heroes, some of them really incredible heroes, wrote George a letter, and said, apologize.
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: You should be ashamed.
GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, let me explain.
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: You should be ashamed.
(CROSSTALK)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: But, years later, an admission that maybe that kind of language doesn't always work.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE," MAY 24, 2006)
MCCAIN: My anger did not help my campaign. It didn't help. People don't like angry candidates very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: And how's he doing now?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE," APRIL 25, 2007)
MCCAIN: I'm fine. Cindy says I'm more ill-tempered than I used to be.
(LAUGHTER)
MCCAIN: But, other than that, I'm fine.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN (on camera): Take note of the fact that the issues that seem to be heating up John McCain the most are questions about immigration and about support for the war, both areas where he potentially stands to lose support among some voters for his stance.
Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And there is this. John McCain isn't the first politician, as you probably know, to use the F-bomb. Vice President Dick Cheney said it to Senator Pat Leahy during a heated exchange on the Senate floor over military contracts with Halliburton, the country -- that is, the company the vice president had, at one time, run.
And Senator John Kerry was quoted saying it during his presidential campaign to describe White House policy in Iraq. Even President Bush used some colorful language to describe a "New York Times" reporter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, 2000)
BUSH: There's Adam Clymer, a major-league (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
RICHARD B. CHENEY (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Oh, yes, he is, big time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Now, afterwards, the president said, "I didn't, obviously, realize the mikes were going to pick it up."
Let's go to tonight's "Out in the Open" panel, CNN contributor Roland Martin, Ben Ferguson, a nationally syndicated radio talk show host who is the author of "It's My America Too."
Well, actually, you're looking at Thom. We never got to see Ben.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: Thom Hartmann is also with us tonight, a radio host on...
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: There he is.
But we're talking about Thom's book, who is the author of "Screwed: The Undeclared War Against the Middle Class."
All right, Ben, we're going to start with you, since you had the shortest of those introductions, and we never saw your face.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: I want...
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: ... I want to show the audience how John McCain has talked and admitted about this problem he has with anger.
And here's what he had to say: "I have a temper, to state the obvious, which I have tried to control, with varying degrees of success, because it does not always serve my interests or the public's. But there are things worth getting angry about in politics. And I have, at times, tried to use my anger to incite public outrage."
Is his temper fair game or even relevant to this race?
BEN FERGUSON, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: No, I mean, it's -- it's fair game, but the reality is, this is a classic example of a politician knowing he's got a problem, and wanting to out it himself in a book. And that's what John McCain did.
He knows he has a short temper. He knows he has an anger management problem. And, when you see this man, and you look at his anger -- I mean, the joke is, in Washington, when you work closely with John McCain, it's: Congratulations. You're working for him. So, have you started sending out resumes yet?
Because it's such a hostile environment to work for this man. And you look at him, and you see this man, and you see what he's doing. He's running for president. I don't want a guy like that, who drops his temper that quickly, to be able in charge -- to be in -- in charge of things with national security, when you can have a knee-jerk reaction.
And that's why it's fair game. It's not -- he's not a commentator. He's not a talk show host. He's a man running for the president of the United States of America. And -- and his personality and his anger management problem is something that I think it's relevant to everyone that votes for him, because, if we get attacked, I don't want him to jump to something.
MARTIN: Oh, come on, Ben.
ZAHN: Roland, do you think it's relevant, or do you think this is a man who has tremendous passion about issues that count?
MARTIN: I mean, God forbid we have a president who actually has some passion. If it's a matter of anger management...
FERGUSON: This president has plenty of passion.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: You know, Paula, hold up. No, no, no.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Roland, Roland...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Paula, Paula, Paula, Paula -- Ben, Ben, hold on.
Here's the deal.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: If you didn't have somebody who had a temper, you wouldn't have a TV anchor in America. You wouldn't have a baseball manager. You wouldn't have a whole lot of jobs.
People naturally get upset. It's no big deal.
FERGUSON: There's a difference between passion... MARTIN: It's not like he's popping off in every single debate.
Oh, Ben, stop it.
FERGUSON: Roland, Roland, Roland, Roland...
ZAHN: All right.
MARTIN: He's a grown man.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben...
FERGUSON: Yes.
ZAHN: ... let me get Thom in here.
Thom, do you...
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: ... do you think that the voters even will make a delineation between anger and passion?
THOM HARTMANN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yes.
ZAHN: And does this cost him anything at the polls?
HARTMANN: Yes, I think they do.
ZAHN: You think it hurts him?
HARTMANN: And I think they will.
I think it's -- it actually may be helping him with a small number of people. You know, he seems to be inching up in the polls, in some ways, with -- with a -- with the -- with the Dick Cheney crowd, that very small 16 percent of the Republican base.
ZAHN: The small part of the base that's heard Dick Cheney swear before, and they say, oh, John McCain...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Are you serious?
HARTMANN: Another angry guy, you know, another curmudgeon. He's going for the curmudgeon vote.
But I think, by and large, Americans don't want a president who -- who -- who is driven by anger. Righteous indignation, yes. You know, this is the right thing to do.
FERGUSON: Absolutely. HARTMANN: But -- but -- but a president who -- and who -- who speaks and says, this is -- you know, who is just gratuitously angry, it falls apart. It doesn't work.
ZAHN: I want to close tonight, gentlemen, with something...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: ... that -- sound that has just come to us.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: And it's a comment McCain had to make about his political rival Mitt Romney, when he was asked about Romney's criticism of the Senate's deal last week.
Let's listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MCCAIN: In the case of Governor Romney, you know, maybe I should wait a couple of weeks and see if it changes, because it's changed in less than a year from his position before. And -- and maybe his solution will be to get out his small varmint gun and drive those Guatemalans off his lawn.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: All right, it's a twofer here, Roland Martin, using words that Romney had used before in reaction to a report that he had used illegal help to do landscaping in his yard. And we had to talk about his hunting record, where he said that he shot varmint.
MARTIN: Well, I mean, I didn't hear him cursing anybody out on that.
I mean, the bottom line is, it's fair game.
ZAHN: Was it a cheap shot?
MARTIN: And, so, you're...
FERGUSON: Yes.
MARTIN: No, it wasn't a cheap shot. It's called -- when you're running for president, you're going to have people criticize you for statements that you make.
FERGUSON: And you have got to take it like a man.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben, your crowd...
HARTMANN: Actually, it was brilliant politics.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: ... you ran commercials -- you ran commercials about John Kerry, flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop. He's saying the same thing about Romney. What's the difference?
FERGUSON: But all I'm saying is, is, when you have a man like McCain -- he reminds me of my grandfather. When he got older, he said -- he figured: You know what? I have been around long enough. I can say whatever I want to say to anyone, and I don't care.
That makes me nervous. You're being president of the United States of America, not a talk show host. You have to handle yourself much better.
ZAHN: All right.
Thom, quick final word?
HARTMANN: This, again, -- is Romney -- is -- is...
ZAHN: You hear the music playing?
HARTMANN: Yes.
ZAHN: We didn't mean to make you lose it with that.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: But it certainly is interesting to talk about.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Gentlemen, thanks so much for your time.
FERGUSON: Thanks for having us.
ZAHN: We will all be back a bit later on.
Filmmaker Michael Moore getting pretty hot under the collar these days.
Get a load of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL MOORE, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: I'm coming back there tomorrow. And I'm going to, you know, fight this, and they're not going to get away with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Out in the open next: why Michael Moore is furious and could also be in big trouble.
And, then, a little bit later on: an allegation that caused tons of trouble at a Republican presidential debate. Could America's foreign policy possibly have provoked 9/11? We will debate it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Tonight, documentary maker Michael Moore under federal investigation over his latest movie. It is called "Sicko." And it had its premiere over the weekend at the Cannes Film Festival.
It happens to be a feature-lengthy documentary on the U.S. health care system. He filmed part of it in Cuba. And that's what's gotten him into trouble.
Entertainment correspondent Brooke Anderson has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SICKO")
MOORE: Even with insurance, there's bound to be a bill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN CULTURE AND ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Michael Moore says he didn't believe "Sicko" would create as much of a stir as his previous films. For one thing, he personally appears much less in this film about the American health care system.
MOORE: I really thought this -- well, finally, I'm going to have a movie that's not going to be controversial, and I can have a little rest. You know, I mean, it's about health care. It affects everybody, regardless of their political stripe.
ANDERSON: But, as things are turning out, that's not exactly the case. It seems, wherever Michael Moore goes, controversy is sure to follow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "FAHRENHEIT 9/11")
MOORE: Members of Congress, this is Michael Moore. I would like to read to you the USA Patriot Act.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: The provocative filmmaker riled conservatives in "Fahrenheit 9/11."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE")
MOORE: I want the account where I can get the free gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARTMANN: And so did his targeting of the National Rifle Association and the gun culture in "Bowling For Columbine."
Now his target is the U.S. health care system. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SICKO")
MOORE: This is Rick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was gripping a piece of wood, and I grabbed it right here, and it hit a knot.
MOORE: The hospital gave him a choice: Reattach the middle finger for $60,000, or do the ring finger for $12,000.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: A lot of the controversy surrounding Moore as he premiered "Sicko" at the Cannes Film Festival over the weekend was because he's under investigation in the United States for shooting part of it in Cuba. Moore says he took ailing 9/11 rescue workers there in March to make a point.
MOORE: The point was not to go to Cuba, but was to go to America, was to go American soil, to Guantanamo Bay, and to take the 9/11 rescue workers there to receive the same health care that they're giving the al Qaeda detainees.
ANDERSON: Nevertheless, Moore and the 9/11 rescuers ended up on Castro's side of Cuba. And now the Treasury Department is investigating whether the trip violated the trade embargo against that country.
Moore asserts, he broke no laws.
MOORE: I made a documentary. That's a work of journalism. The -- the law says that journalists can go to Cuba. You don't need permission. You don't need a license or anything.
ANDERSON: From the French Riviera, Moore had a message for officials back home.
MOORE: I'm going back there tomorrow and I'm going to, you know, fight this and they're not going to get away with it.
ANDERSON: Apart from Cuba, Moore shot footage for "Sicko" in Canada and Europe, attempting to send a message that America's health care system is driven more by greed than by concern about people's well-being. In Britain, he visited a government-funded hospital.
MOORE: What did they charge you for that baby?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. They didn't charge us. It's not America.
ANDERSON: "Sicko" is scheduled to open in the United States on June 29th. Moore predicts audiences will find it to their liking.
MOORE: I want to guarantee that when people go to see my movie, they are going to have a great time. It's going to be entertaining and it will be over before you know it. Painless, and you leave the theater wanting to go shut down an HMO.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Brooke, what the chances of the opening of this film being delayed because of the U.S. government investigating his trip?
ANDERSON: Well, at this point there's no indication that that could happen, and Moore was asked about that. And he said they haven't even discussed that possibility. But, Paula, he has been worried about the safety of his film. He actually squirreled away outside the United States a master duplicate of the movie on the advice of his attorneys because Moore doesn't want the film to be taken away if the government does find that he obtained some of the video illegally by violating that trade embargo. But as of now, the movie is still scheduled to open here in the United States June 29th.
ZAHN: Brooke Anderson, thanks so much for the update, appreciate it.
During last week's Republican debate, one of the presidential candidates infuriated his rivals by saying America's foreign policy may have brought on 9/11. And Congressman Ron Paul keeps on saying this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RON PAUL, (R) TX: There is a lot of evidence. I don't think we should deal with this subjective. I think we should to deal with the objective position of whether or not those who really understand the Middle East support what I had said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: We'll take him up on it next. And debate what's really to blame for 9/11. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: As a Republican presidential candidate, Congressman Ron Paul, barely shows up in the polls at all, but one thing he said at the last GOP debate is "Out in the Open" tonight. Because it is still making headlines and causing tremendous outrage. He was talking about the 9/11 attacks, and what caused them. Just listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL: I'm suggesting that we listen to the people who attacked us and the reason they did it. And they are delighted that we're over there because Osama bin Laden has said, I am glad you're over on our sand because we can target you so much easier. They've already now since that time have killed 3,400 of our men and I don't think it was necessary.
RUDY GIULIANI, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That's than extraordinary statement. As someone who lived through the attack on September 11th that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq.
I don't think I've ever heard that before and I've heard some pretty absurd explanations for September 11th.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: All right. You can tell where the applause was that night. And where the crowd stood on that. But wait, didn't Ron Paul have a point there? That the U.S. meddling in the Middle East, has caused some resentment against America? Let's turn to CNN contributor Roland Martin. He happens to think so. He wrote a commentary about it for cnn.com.
He's back with us, along with the rest of our panel. Ben Ferguson and Thom Hartmann. Welcome back. All right, Roland. Let's talk a little bit about this piece that you wrote about 9/11. And you said that there is a point that deserves to be debated here. I want you to set the record straight tonight. Are you saying that the United States is in any way responsible for bringing on the attacks of 9/11?
MARTIN: Well, first of all, it's not a matter of is the U.S. responsible for bring on the attacks. What he was saying is that it impacts foreign policy. What we didn't play was the clip where he cited, for instance, the Americans overthrowing the Iranian government in 1953 of Mohammed Mossadegh, the prime minister, really over oil to help British Petroleum, then Anglo Iranian Oil, and how that was a reason cited in 1979 when they overthrew the U.S. Embassy and kidnapped Americans.
See, the problem, Paula, is as Americans, we really don't want to look at history. We act as if what took place last week impacts this week when in fact ....
ZAHN: Roland, Roland, Roland, wait. Answer the question. So you're saying that if you look at the foreign policy of the United States, it contributed to the anger that sparked 9/11?
MARTIN: And that is the reason that, as Paul was saying, cited by the individuals who did it. He's not justifying the attack. He's not saying it's OK. In fact, it is absolutely wrong and we should have struck back.
FERGUSON: Roland, what are you ...
MARTIN: But what he's saying is you have to understand what the other person is thinking.
FERGUSON: Then what are you going to do?
ZAHN: All right. Ben ...
FERGUSON: Roland, Roland ...
ZAHN: Ben, Ben, Ben, let me ask you this question. Are you going to deny that U.S. foreign policy had anything to do with the attacks of 9/11?
FERGUSON: You know what, yes. I'll tell you why. Because these fundamentalists are crazy. They use Mickey Mouse to teach their kids to blow themselves up. Explain the USS Cole bombing. Explain the first World Trade Center bombing.
We weren't doing jack squat around the world to irritate or anger them. Hold on a second, Roland. You had plenty of time. Give me one second. My point is this. These people are crazy. They're willing to blow themselves up. They're not rational.
We can leave Iraq, Afghanistan, send them millions of dollars, help train their kids to blow us up and they'd still kill us because they hate us. They always have and they always will.
ZAHN: All right. Let me bring Tom into it conversation.
MARTIN (inaudible)
ZAHN: You've heard what both of our guests have had to say. Your reaction.
HARTMANN: People don't hate in a vacuum. And it's not limited to Muslims or people from the -- from the Middle East. I mean, Tim McVeigh thought he was justified. On the anniversary, the second anniversary of Waco. Christian terrorism. I mean, there's a whole variety of these problems.
But to look at any of these things, frankly, I'm agreeing with both of your guests. To look at this, particularly Roland, to look at this in a vacuum, I think, is a disaster. We do need to learn the lessons of history. And that was what Ron Paul -- what Ron Paul was doing in the Republican debate is something that Dennis Kucinich very often does in the Democratic debates. And that is he was being the truth-teller.
He was the little boy ...
MARTIN: That's right.
HARTMANN: ... who was saying the emperor wears no clothes. That's a really important role to play even though it's a role that nobody else seemed to want to hear.
FERGUSON: You guys are smart guys. Please tell me you understand that Ron Paul is a no one who wanted to make a name for himself so he said something a little bit extreme and crazy to get notoriety.
MARTIN: Stop. He's not mainstream.
HARTMANN: Ron Paul was speaking the truth. And look at the response across the country to it. It was very positive.
FERGUSON: It was not positive. It was absolutely not positive. MARTIN: Paula, the -- stop it, Ben. The fundamental problem, Paula, is people like Ben don't like reading. They don't want to accept history.
FERGUSON: All right. Roland -- you don't know me and that's not true. History does repeat itself in this country.
MARTIN: Ben, Ben, Ben, listening to what you just said, you act as if when America does something, like it has no impact on ...
FERGUSON: You're putting words in my mouth.
MARTIN: It absolutely does.
HARTMANN: Roland, it's not just that. The other Republican candidates, as well, they're all trying to demagogue the situation, too.
ZAHN: I can't understand all three of you when you're talking over each other. Ben, you're going to get the last word tonight. But you can't have it both ways. You can't sit here and deny that foreign policy had nothing to do with it and just write it off as bunch of craz-os that hate America. Don't you believe the history of the involvement in this country overseas and in various places had something to do with this anger that we see?
FERGUSON: I think they hate America. America is an easy place to hate because we do have a great life here.
MARTIN: Not that simple.
FERGUSON: I agree -- hold on a second. I agree that this country, there's people around the world that hate us. Look at Lebanon today. Al Qaeda is going after them and that's a 180 from what America is. They hate. They love to hate people. They teach hate. And I'm sorry, I'm not going to play our foreign policy has trying to be nice all the time. Because when we are nice, they still blow us up. If you look at what they tell their children, they say blow yourself up for our God. That's not normal or rational.
ZAHN: OK, gentlemen. I got to leave it there. Tom Hartmann, Ben Ferguson, Roland Martin. Interesting discussion. We all have to catch our breath now.
The friends of a man who is fighting to stay in this country say the government is playing dirty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So now we're going after families. Ha, we got your brother. Be on notice. This is just the beginning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: What were this guy and his brother doing before they came here? Were they freedom-fighters or terrorists? Their story "Out in the Open" next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: "Out in the Open" now, what is it about a Michigan restaurant owner that is so threatening to the security of the United States that the federal government wants to kick him out of the country? Well, depending on who you believe, the answer is either nothing or all or terrorism. Keith Oppenheim reports tonight from Michigan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In southwest Michigan, if you go into a restaurant called Cafe Gulistan, you'll notice what looks like a shrine with a message that reads return Huseyin. Huseyin is the brother of the restaurant's owner, Ibrahim Parlak. Parlak firmly believes the government deported his brother last week as a way to send a message.
IBRAHIM PARLAK, RESTAURANT OWNER: They're hoping that they can get me so that I can say, OK, that's it. I give up. So that they can declare victory.
OPPENHEIM: For six years, the federal government has been trying to get the older brother, Ibrahim, deported, charging he was a member of the PKK, a Kurdish nationalist group that for years has fought against Turkey. Parlak says that in the late 1980s, he campaigned for Kurdish rights, but never took part in violence.
PARLAK: In a peaceful manner. And I didn't do anything wrong.
OPPENHEIM: The Turkish authorities say he was involved in violence. Parlak was detained and he says tortured, but eventually released. In 1991, Parlak came to America and applied for asylum. He got it. And then in 1991 he applied for citizenship.
(on camera): But U.S. authorities have obtained new information about Parlak's past from Turkey. Not only that, but the official status of the PKK had changed. Now listed by the State Department as a terrorist organization. For Ibrahim Parlak, the government that had once welcomed him as a freedom fighter was now getting ready to prosecute him as a terrorist.
RUSS KNOCKE, DEPT. OF HOMELAND SECURITY: He clearly has connections to terrorism.
OPPENHEIM (voice-over): When Parlak was charged in a Turkish court, he was convicted of separatism against the Turkish state. The U.S. government charges that on his application for asylum, Parlak had not disclose that he'd been convicted of anything.
KNOCKE: We first viewed him as someone who violated our immigration laws and in a post 9/11 world, violation of immigration laws cannot be tolerated in any way.
OPPENHEIM: As the government sought to deport Parlak, he was sent to county jail for 10 months, then released. Meantime, his supporters were waging a P.R. campaign. They got help from two Michigan congressmen, Republican Fred Upton and Democrat Carl Levin who introduced a bill to give him permanent residency, a move which for the moment has stalled his deportation, which brings us back to Ibrahim's brother.
(on camera): Huseyin Parlak came to the U.S. on a student visa and worked here at his brother's restaurant. He supporters tell us in 2003 Hussein was worried that because of his brother's well publicized case and because he's a Kurd, that things could get dicey for him if he went back to Turkey. So he applied for asylum. Ultimately his application was denied and he lost on appeal.
ROBERT CARPENTER, HUSEYIN PARLAK'S ATTORNEY: We were led to believe and with very good reason that he would remain here during the pendency of that appeal.
OPPENHEIM: That didn't happen. Last week, immediately after a scheduled appointment with immigration officials in Detroit, Huseyin Parlak was taken into custody and put on a plane to Turkey with no chance to see his attorney or family. In a statement, immigration officials wrote, "Huseyin Parlak violated his student visa and received due process under the law."
Ibrahim Parlak and his friends believe the deportation is a government threat.
MATZIN DZURIS, FRIEND OF IBRAHIM PARLAK: So now we're going after your family. And, ha, we got your brother. And be on notice, this just the beginning.
PARLAK: They didn't have to make my brother pay for this. If they want to do it, they're going to come do it to me. I'm here. I'm not running away.
OPPENHEIM: As a result of being deported, Huseyin Parlak was separated from his girlfriend. Ibrahim Parlak worries the same could happen between him and his daughter, but he says he's determined to stay in America. Keith Oppenheim, CNN, Harbert, Michigan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And Huseyin Parlak's case is still on appeal and if he were to win, he could be brought back to the United States. But his brother is worried about Huseyin's safety in Turkey.
LARRY KING LIVE coming up in just a few minutes. Hi, Larry. Who's joining you tonight?
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Hi, Paula. We're live at the United States/Mexican border tonight and in Washington, too, on the immigration debate that's dividing a nation of immigrants. And among our guests, the actor and activist Edward James Olmos and a one-time illegal immigrant who's one of the hottest Spanish language radio stars. All of that and a lot more at the top of the hour on LARRY KING LIVE. Paula? ZAHN: We'll be watching, Larry. Thank you. Should be interesting.
KING: I'll be here.
ZAHN: The debate rages on. We're going to take a quick "Biz Break" right now. The Dow is down 13. The NASDAQ gained 20. The S&P lost two. The FDA says diabetics who take Avandia should check with their doctors. The agency today issued a safety alert for Avandia after looking at studies linking it to potentially fatal heart problems.
A passengers' rights group is hoping for more from an airline bill of rights the Senate is considering. Critics say the bill falls short because it fails to force airlines to let people get off the planes if they're grounded for more than three hours. We've all been there, haven't me?
And all over the world, thousands of people are "Out in the Open" sharing every detail of their lives with folks they don't even know. Coming up, why would they do that? Why would they want anybody to know all that stuff?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: We're going to bring "Out in the Open" a strange kind of exhibitionism that's and voyeurism that's taking off thanks to text messaging. It's making it possible for people to do live play-by-play of their own lives and broadcast it to virtually anyone else with a cell phone.
But why? Why do so many people want so many other people to know everything about them? Dan Lothian brings that "Out in the Open" tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's like taking MySpace on a road trip. Online social networking sites like Twitter, Radar and Jaiku tailored for small wireless devices like a cell phone.
Susan Kaup keeps the conversation going on Twitter as I walk home with her from her job in Boston.
SUSAN KAUP, TWITTERER: I was thinking to replying to that message.
LOTHIAN: Texting from her Sidekick to an Internet site where thousands are logged on around and world and can respond.
KAUP: I'm just saying, walking down Braintree Street with CNN.
LOTHIAN (on camera): And who really cares?
KAUP: Well, apparently people do care. LOTHIAN (voice-over): People who must be at least 13 years old. Part of this global playground that's crowded with short messages about everything. Mostly strangers tracking other strangers' lives.
(on camera): This person on Twitter is thrilled that this soccer team has scored. "Yes, yes, yes," he writes.
Here someone muses about getting a sandwich for lunch. And you'll find updates from exotic vacations, what they're seeing, where they're going next.
Sometimes the messages are meant for friends, but other times it's just cyberchatter for anyone to read. Essentially broadcasting bits and pieces of your life on the go.
(voice-over): Twitter co-founder says Biz Stone these cyber communities can even act as an all points bulletin.
BIZ STONE, TWITTER COFOUNDER: I've seen people use Twitter to say I'm getting a drink at this bar and then there's 10 people showing up at that bar saying I saw you were Twittering about getting a drink at that bar. Would love to join you.
LOTHIAN: Kaup logged on to Twitter less than a year ago, finding out about the service, where else but online. Once she started, it's hard to stop.
KAUP: People like to feel connected. And Twitter has become like an amazing way for just very instant connection and feedback.
STONE: Sometimes it takes seeing what other people are up to -- you compare that against what you're doing and you get more of a sense of self. It's context.
LOTHIAN: But that's exactly what bothers MIT sociologist and technology guru Sherry Turkle.
SHERRY TURKLE, MIT: We're looking for other people to a sense of self-validation for things that are becoming more and more trivial.
LOTHIAN: Kaup's only concern is overkill.
KAUP: You have to know when to stop twittering so you're not oversharing.
LOTHIAN: A lot of her sharing is about music. She runs a blog and a cyber radio station and can be found often in area clubs. Typing away short reviews of local bands for her friends or anyone else who's logged on.
KAUP: At (inaudible). Not sure who this woman is singing now.
LOTHIAN: And remember this?
KAUP: Walking down Braintree Street with CNN.
LOTHIAN: And who really cares?
Well, someone apparently did care. Even to the point of making suggestions about who CNN should have on the air.
(on camera): We don't have anything to do with that.
(voice-over): Dan Lothian, CNN, Boston.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And we haven't hired any of those folks who were all atwitter as producers yet. We are just minutes away from LARRY KING LIVE. Tonight, both sides in the fight over immigration reform. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us tonight. LARRY KING LIVE starts right now. Thanks for joining us. Appreciate it.
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