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Q&A with Jim Clancy

More Suicide Bombings Strike Israel

Aired June 19, 2002 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLEEN MCEDWARDS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Israel, confronted with deadly suicide bombings almost on a daily basis.

Yesterday's suicide bombing in southern Jerusalem was the deadliest in the city in six years. 19 Israelis dead, more than 50 wounded. And it's heightened the sense of siege in Israel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I go to school every day, and now I am afraid, because of the bombs. I am scared.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are very angry. We are very upset. 19 of our people were murdered here today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like all the people in Israel, I want peace. I have children. I want peace.

MCEDWARDS: On this edition of Q&A, the effects of suicide bombings on the people of Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(on camera): Hello and welcome to Q&A. I'm Colleen McEdwards. Jim Clancy is on holiday.

Another suicide bombing in Jerusalem. It happened at a bus stop in the French Hill neighborhood of northeast Jerusalem, killing at least seven Israelis in addition to the bomber.

Ambulance services say 37 people are wounded, some of them quite seriously.

CNN's Sheila MacVicar joins us now from the scene with the very latest for us -- Sheila.

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Colleen, you may be able to see behind me, well actually you can't -- traffic has been reopened on at least one part of this road now, but opposite there is where that hitchhiking post, that bus stop was, that the suicide bomber had approached.

The emergency services are now completing their cleanup. Of course, this is a very well-practiced and well-ordered drill here, and with so much experience they are able to get these things cleaned up fairly quickly now.

As you said, Colleen, seven people are known to have died. There are a number of others, 37 others, who are wounded. Five of those are critically wounded. It is known that amongst the wounded is a border policeman who was on duty here at this hitchhiking post.

This is a place that had previously been the target of a number of both suicide bombers -- an attempted attack. As a result of that, there was a permanent security presence here. That border policeman on duty here this afternoon amongst those who was wounded.

There are also reports from hospital sources that there are at least three children, one a 6-year-old and two 18-month-olds, one a boy who has apparently been brought into the hospital without his parents. Officials say at this point they aren't clear or aren't sure where his parents are -- Colleen.

MCEDWARDS: Sheila, is it true that many of the people who were gathering at that bus stop, or that hitchhiking post as it's used as well, were there to get rides in private cars, because they've essentially become too afraid to take the public transit system?

MACVICAR: Many people have become very nervous of taking public transit. We obviously heard yesterday, from the Hamas spokesman after they issued their statement of responsibility, they called this -- after yesterday's attack which took place on a commuter bus in the southern suburbs of Jerusalem -- Hamas referred to this as the war of the buses.

There have been very many buses that have been attacked over the last number of months, 20 months, and as a result of that, there are some Israelis who, when they can, choose not to take pubic transit.

Obviously, there are people who, for other reasons, feel that they have no other choice but to use public transit.

But this was a place where many people, including young people going to and from work, going home, coming home from school, would gather in the afternoon, seeking a ride out to more outlying areas -- Colleen.

MCEDWARDS: Sheila MacVicar, thanks very much.

Today's attack and other suicide bombings have had a serious impact on the psyche of the people living in Israel.

CNN's Martin Savidge brings us more now on that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Americans, there's only one date of terror they can't forget.

For Israelis, there are so many they can't remember them all.

Since the latest wave of violence began 20 months ago, more than 500 Israelis have been killed. Officials can tell you the toll terror has taken in lives, but it's not so easy the toll it's taken on Israeli life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have friends that won't go to Jerusalem now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hardly sleep at night, because I was very afraid of terrorists.

SAVIDGE (on camera): The tension here is almost palpable. The constant threat of terror forces you to think about almost everything, from being in crowded places to choosing a restaurant, to even riding a bus.

(voice-over): No place is safe, and no one is immune. Israelis even look at each other in a way they never had before.

This woman said her backpack made her a target of suspicion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone was around me and I realized that they were thinking that maybe I'm a terrorist.

SAVIDGE: Psychologists call this constant state of alertness hyper- vigilance. And they say it's having an effect on the mental health of Israelis.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are having difficulty concentrating, difficulty focusing, difficulty remembering details. They're hyper- vigilant. You hear a noise, you hear a plane, people look up.

SAVIDGE: After each new attack, Israeli television runs this public service announcement, promoting a mental health hotline.

And the phones start ringing. Calls are up a staggering 1,300 percent since 1998.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Each terrorist attack evokes in them what was maybe a little bit smaller before, so it gets stronger and stronger.

SAVIDGE (on camera): There have been very few psychological studies that have been conducted on Israelis as a result of the continuation of terror. The researchers say the reason for that is that attacks like these have just been coming too frequently.

(voice-over): But those that have been done suggest a cumulative effect of regular exposure to lesser forms of terror has a greater mental impact that a single negative event.

A survey of New Yorkers after September 11th found just over 7 percent of those living in the city showed signs of posttraumatic stress. A similar study of Israelis found 1 in 4 showing symptoms of posttraumatic stress.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That shows to you that the infiltration of the terror threat got into everyone.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): And since some medical studies have linked stress to reducing the body's immune system, Berger (ph) believes that in the long run, the threat of terror could be just as deadly as terror attacks themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would expect the incidents of terminal diseases, such as cancer or heart disease, will increase, if, if you don't do anything to prevent it.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): With United States officials warning Americans have an increase of terror at home, the war Israelis are waging in their minds is capturing the attention of American mental health experts. For them, Israel is more than just an interesting case. It may be a window into the future, revealing things to come.

Martin Savidge, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCEDWARDS: And joining us to talk about this issue and more, on the telephone from Jerusalem, we have David Horovitz. He is the editor of the "Jerusalem Report."

Thanks for being with us, David.

We just heard a reference to something called hyper-vigilance, people sort of walking around, afraid of everything. Do you get a sense for that in Jerusalem?

DAVID HOROVITZ, "JERUSALEM REPORT": Oh, absolutely. Israelis feel terrorized. They know that there are people everyday trying to kill them, all over the country. People who are glorifying in death while they are trying to cling to life. They know that nowhere is safe, and they feel that the world is also actually being duped about the reasons for this.

They feel they tried to partner the Palestinians toward statehood, and are being terrorized all over sovereign, undisputed Israel in return.

MCEDWARDS: And what about your own experience? Do you get that feeling as well?

HOROVITZ: I think I speak for all Israelis in that to go out of the front door in the morning is to enter a kind of grisly lottery, where there is absolutely no guarantee that you and the people that you love will get home intact at the end of the day.

I mean, in Jerusalem over the last two days there have been 26 Israelis killed, and dozens more who have been injured, and nobody knows if it's going to be them or people they care about next.

MCEDWARDS: So how does it effect your day to day life?

HOROVITZ: Well, you try to build a kind of prudent framework, but I suspect I think, I suspect, it's a little self-delusional. You know, you agonize about where to do the shopping -- is this supermarket safer than that one. If you dare to go to a cafe to have a cup of coffee, you first of all insure that there's a security guard on the door, and then you sit facing the door and make sure he's doing his job.

You do look at everybody who's walking towards you on the street, because you know that suicide bombers can be male and female, can carry their explosives on belts hidden under clothing, and therefore everyone is a potential suspicious passerby.

MCEDWARDS: And does public information help? I mean, are people taught enough about what to look for, what to be suspicious of, what kinds of places to avoid, or is it beyond that even now?

HOROVITZ: Yes, I think it is beyond that now. I mean, the attack just a few hours ago at the crossroads at French Hill, the junction at French Hill, has got to be one of the most heavily secured areas. There has been a series of attacks at that junction, and there is a heavy police and security presence.

From what we understand, the bomber was spotted very quickly, but all he had to do, of course, seeing as he was delightedly killing himself, was get to as many people and blow himself up, and even the people who were trying to stop him, well, they were merely among the casualties of his blast.

MCEDWARDS: David Horovitz, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

When we return, the long-term effects of living under this kind of constant threat from a random terror attack.

Stay with us -- be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MCEDWARDS: Welcome back to Q&A.

We're talking about the impact of this relentless suicide bombing campaign on Israeli society, and joining us to talk more about this is Benny Friedman. He survived a suicide bombing outside the Sbarro Pizzeria. That was in central Jerusalem, last August. 15 people were killed in that attack, including a man who was sitting just 5 feet across from him.

Also, in Tel Aviv, Dr. Irwin Mansdorf. He's a psychologist who specializes in treating trauma victims.

Thank you both for joining us.

Dr. Mansdorf, we'll talk to you in just a moment, but I do want to start with Benny Friedman.

Benny, can you just take us back to that day in the pizzeria and what you remember about the moment the bomb went off, and the moments just before it and just after?

BENNY FRIEDMAN, SUICIDE BOMBING SURVIVOR: Sure. I go back to that day everyday. I don't have to go back there.

I was sitting inside. The reason I'm standing here talking with you is only because I happened to sit in the rear, and I happened to -- when you walk into the Sbarro's Pizzeria in Jerusalem, there's a sort of a smaller sitting area in the back. And I wanted to have a little quiet in a hectic day, so I took my seat in the back, sat a little to the left, and as such the wall with the pizza ovens was behind me.

And about five minutes after I sat down, there was a tremendous explosion, the loudest explosion I've ever heard. The suicide bomber walked in and detonated himself -- I have to correct you, by the way, there were 18 people killed, not 15.

MCEDWARDS: OK. Thanks.

FRIEDMAN: And, it takes a second to realize what's going on. Of course, very quickly you understand that there was a bomb. Screaming. Shouting. Agony. Sounds that will stay with me forever.

I remember in the army, one of the things the terrorists used to do was to detonate a bomb, wait a few minutes and then detonate another bomb. So I started yelling at people to stay in the back. There were a few of us that seemed uninjured.

But then there was a tremendous fireball at the front of the restaurant that we could see, and we were in the back in an area where there was no way out. So, we started to walk forward.

The scene that greeted my eyes was just beyond description. There was a woman who was lying at the foot of the steps, and as we walked down into the front area, which just moments before had been women and children, a normal, beautiful Jerusalem afternoon, everything was chaos.

I remember only one person who was actually standing. There were bodies everywhere, and body parts everywhere. There was a woman lying at the foot of the steps, and she was looking at me, and her eyes were following me down the steps, and she was trying to say something. So I kneeled down next to her, just to see, you know, if I could help.

I was calling her name -- trying to ask her what her name was. And then literally watched the light go out of her eyes. She died.

Later, I found out her name was (UNINTELLIGIBLE). She must have been calling out for her daughter, 6 years old, who also was killed.

The blast was such a powerful blast that the pizza ovens were blown out into the street. There was a girl whose body was missing for nine hours, until they finally found her body wedged up into the chimney.

And you find yourself wondering, what could motivate a human being to do something like that. To walk into a restaurant full of women and children.

MCEDWARDS: Well, it's clear from what you have just described with the emotion you've described it, you don't ever get over something like this. But I'm wondering, how, in almost a year since then, how you've tried to cope and what kind of impact this has had on your relationships -- your relationships with your family and your friends.

FRIEDMAN: Well, you certainly hug your children a little tighter every night.

I'll be honest with you, the emotion, you know, after the event itself, has been less difficult. You find yourself wondering why you were spared, why God allowed you to keep living. And that gives you a sort of sense of mission, that you want to do something.

But I'll be honest with you. Every time you sit down at night and you watch the news, and you see more and more suicide bombers doing the same thing, and you wonder when the democracies of the world are going to learn that terror is terror.

You know, George Bush made an amazing statement after September 11th. He said that we have to go to war on terror. He said anyone that recognizes terror, anyone who harbors a terrorist, that their either with us or against us. Very strong words.

And what I find challenging is why Israel somehow is different from the rest of the world. Why is terror here not terror? Why do the women and the children, why do babies who are destroyed and put under sniper's scopes, why are they any less valid?

And when are we going to finally decide -- not Israel, but as a world community, that we need to put a stop to terrorism, wherever it may be.

MCEDWARDS: Benny, I want to bring Dr. Irwin Mansdorf in here.

Dr. Mansdorf, is what Benny has described here fairly typical in the way that victims remember attacks and in the way it effects their day to day life after that?

DR. IRWIN MANSDORF, PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. What happens with terror is that not only is it crisis for the victims, it's a crisis for anyone that was around them. We call it a crisis by observation.

Benny is well-known for a letter that he circulated after the terror attack, that made the rounds in e-mail, and I think anyone that was reading it, and anyone that was from Israel, had anything to do with living under terror, related to it and related to it very vicariously.

MCEDWARDS: You know, what about the impact on children? Because I've certainly read stories about how kids who are barely school-age are taken aside and they're given drills and they're told what to look for, at such a young age.

What kind of effect does that have on their psyches as they grow?

MANSDORF: Well, there is no one in Israel who has raised a child that doesn't know that from the first grade on, anyone that walks in the street and sees an empty package lying around -- children from a very young age know that this is something you have to report to the police. So they grow up in this atmosphere of knowing how to handle that type of stuff.

There's a recent study that was commissioned by the One Family organization, which is an organization -- a nonprofit organization that works with emotional and financial needs of terror victims, and they found in fact that teenagers, a majority of teenagers, have been effected quite deeply in terms of changing their lifestyles, in terms of handling the terror attacks on a daily basis.

MCEDWARDS: Is it a cumulative effect?

MANSDORF: Well, we don't know yet what the long-term effects are.

Martin Savidge, before, spoke about Israel serving as an experimental basis, experimental base for studying terror.

We know from other studies in the past, from studies that were done on combat victims, on Holocaust victims, that there is a cumulative effect, but there's also a degree of resilience that's developed after a period of time, where people do come out of it and manage to cope and manage to go on with their daily lives.

So, whereas there are certain...

MCEDWARDS: Well, that's interesting. Can it be the kind of thing that makes people stronger, makes them more resilient? Or is there, again, a psychological impact of that?

MANSDORF: Well, I'll give a comparison in terms of what happened in the United States following September 11th, where there was a study commissioned by the Rand Foundation, and some of the results that we found and in some of the studies that we've done over here, following the attacks in the United States, there was a tremendous rise in patriotism, and that is somewhat linked to the resilience that people felt.

There was hardly a block that you walked down in the United States and not see an American flag. What you see in Israel these days is a similar type of phenomena, where people have been feeling more patriotic. There's been a tremendous feeling of solidarity behind the army, the army's actions. And all of this comes from the resiliency of people trying to do something in the face of the terror attacks that they're facing.

MCEDWARDS: Benny, do you feel that? Do you feel that it's made you more resilient in some ways, perhaps even more patriotic?

FRIEDMAN: I don't know about more patriotic. I was already pretty patriotic.

I think there are two important points. One is, the effect that this has on children.

You know, one night, over a year-and-a-half ago, as a result of this war, I was in the army at the time, on reserve duty, and I managed to get home just to put my kids to sleep, and my son, who was then 7, he wouldn't let go of me. He was hugging me good night. He just wouldn't let go of me.

And finally he looked up at me, and he said (UNINTELLIGIBLE), "Promise me that you won't die."

How do you answer that? How do you say to a 7-year-old child that you can promise them that you won't die? What a heartbreaking thing, that a child has to deal with that.

But I want you to understand, on the flip side, this is not a new phenomenon. The Jewish people have been dealing with this for 2,000 years. We've been dealing with terror in Israel as long as we've had a state, for over 50 years, and the saddest thing is that those who are perpetrating this sort of horrible stuff, they believe that it will cause us, I don't know, to go away, to become weaker.

And the tragedy is that as long as the Jewish people are here, we're not going anywhere. You know, we yearn to sit in peace, we do. And, to be honest, these events don't effect my desire to find peace and to find partners for peace.

MCEDWARDS: All right, Benny...

FRIEDMAN: But in order to make peace, you have to have a partner.

MCEDWARDS: Benny Friedman, we have to leave it there.

Thanks so much to Benny Friedman and Dr. Irwin Mansdorf as well, appreciate your thoughts.

And, again, just quickly, to bring you up to date, there has been another suicide bombing. At least 7 people dead. More than 30 others injured at this point. We're also going to have a full update for you at the top of the hour, so do keep it with CNN.

That's Q&A. I'm Colleen McEdwards. Thanks for watching.

END

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