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Quest Means Business
40,000 Attend Dueling Rallies in Athens; Greek PM Urges "No" Vote in Referendum; "Yes" Rally; Greek Banks Have $1.1 Billion Left; Greeks Warned of Supply Shortages; Economist Proposes "Way Out" for Greece; Uber Pop Suspended in France After Protests
Aired July 03, 2015 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:10] RICHARD QUEST, HOST: Thousands in the squares of Athens. Tonight, a show of force and democracy in the Greek capital. The "yes" and
the "no," both having their say on Friday, the 3rd of July.
A very good evening to you, very good evening to you from Athens. It's going to be a different type of program tonight as we work our way through
and as the rhetoric ramps up and the supplies get ever low.
I'm Richard Quest, I mean business here in Athens.
A very good evening to you. It's going to be an extremely different and maybe a little more difficult program to bring you tonight, but we are at
the heart of where events are taking place. Less than 48 hours before a crucial referendum, and Athens is out in force.
There have been dueling demonstrations between the "yes" and the "no" camps that have taken the city by storm. These are live pictures of the Vote No
rally in Syntagma Square. That rally is still underway, you can hear it, you can -- I can still see many thousands of people in the square beneath
me.
All in all, police estimate a combined 40,000 Greeks have hit the streets. And their defiant prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, is among them. A short
while ago here in this square, he urged the people to vote no.
The "yes" camp was rallying in Kallimarmaro stadium. It's petered out -- it was earlier. It was filled with citizens waving European Union flags.
They were chanting "Yes to peace, yes to democracy."
A moment of chaos, well, that broke out between young demonstrators and law enforcement. A rally -- a moment of chaos broke out between youth
demonstrators and law enforcement. Police used teargas to disperse the crowed.
Alexis Tsipras took the stage to a roaring frenzy. He laid out his case to turn down Sunday's referendum.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEXIS TSIPRAS, PRIME MINISTER OF GREECE (through translator): On Sunday, we are all sending a message of democracy and dignity to Europe and the
world. We are re-sending a message of hope to the people. Because on Sunday, we do not simply decide to stay in the euro, we decide to live with
dignity in Europe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: I've done some interviews in difficult places, with a concert behind me, but I don't feel to sorry about it with this next guest, because
he's Giorgos Katrougalos, he's the Greek deputy minister of interior and administrative response -- reconstruction.
He's responsible for reforming Greece's public sector, and frankly, it's his government and his party that's responsible for the noise behind me
tonight.
GIORGOS KATROUGALOS, GREEK DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERIOR: It is not a noise, it's the voice of democracy, Richard.
QUEST: So tell me, as I watched the prime minister, what he had to do tonight was tell Greece not to be afraid to vote no.
KATROUGALOS: It is not just about Greece, Richard. If it was, you would not be here. It's much broader than that. Two different visions of Europe
are opposing each other: a vision of a social Europe with rights, with social freedoms and liberties, and another vision of Europe, an (inaudible)
one with austerity.
QUEST: But if we just take today, Jean-Claude Juncker saying it's no guarantee that there would be talks after a "no" vote. That's the risk
you're asking the Greek people to take.
KATROUGALOS: No, this is the blackmail. This is an episode of psychological warfare against a small people. That's why it is also an
issue of democracy.
QUEST: If you're wrong, you are about to sell the country down the river.
KATROUGALOS: No, not at all. We want to strengthen our negotiation position to remain in Europe but to a social Europe, with a better chance
for our people.
[16:05:09] QUEST: Juncker says that it will be difficult negotiations whatever happens. He also says there's no guarantee that a "no" vote won't
lead to leaving the euro. You say that's blackmail.
KATROUGALOS: I say that as I say another thing: no creditor has an interest to kill his debtor. So, they cannot insist on continuing this
austerity policy that clearly decimates our economy.
QUEST: OK, but you've got a real problem, and it is as pensioners have seen bank lines, as people have seen banks closed, they don't believe you
and trust you. The mood is against you.
KATROUGALOS: We are going to see that. Because, you see, the banks are closed because the European Central Bank has not increased the liquidity of
our economy. That's another episode of their psychological warfare, because the Greek banks do not have a problem of solvency like in Cyprus,
on an island. Just a problem of liquidity.
QUEST: But what if the ECB on Monday does not open the money again. We know there's only a $1.5 billion left in the Greek banks.
KATROUGALOS: But they have an institutional mandate to ensure liquidity throughout Europe. If they don't do that, they are violating their mandate
and it will be clear that they are going to kill democracy here where it has been born.
QUEST: Finally, the whole country is divided. Can you agree on that, the country is divided?
KATROUGALOS: I agree that this is a danger we must avoid. We have --
QUEST: It's too late.
KATROUGALOS: No, it's not.
QUEST: It's too late.
KATROUGALOS: It's not. It's not. We have political differences, but we are one people and we must remain united. This is the big bet for Monday.
QUEST: Sir, I have to say, any minister that can keep going. But then, you are responsible for this noise.
KATROUGALOS: I am one of the crowd down there.
QUEST: All right. I'll let you go inside while we carry on talking.
Wow, right. I'm overlooking the "no" rally in Syntagma Square in front of the parliament building. Isa Soares is at the "yes" rally in the stadium.
Isa, I hope you can hear me. It's noisy here. I think your rally has already broken up.
ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, it seems -- I can just barely make out what you said, Richard, but it seems
the party on your side is still going strong. On this side, people have already dispersed, rubbish is already picked up. We were really ready --
doors already opened. People left the minute all the speeches were made.
And what we have heard tonight at the time -- the same time that Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras was speaking in the "no" camp, on this side, we
heard regular Athenians taking to the stage saying why everyone should vote no. Why everyone should vote "nai," which means "yes," the importance of
"yes," the importance of staying in Europe.
"No isolation," one man said. "No more queues at ATMs." And one man made a very important point as he took to the stage, Richard. He said, "We
don't believe Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras. There won't be any money in the banks come Monday. They won't even manage to get a deal in 48 hours.
Let's vote yes, let's vote against Prime Minister Tsipras." Those were his words, Richard.
QUEST: Isa, the mood here was defiant but friendly. There was an air of determination. How does that compare to the mood at your rally?
SOARES: At the beginning, Richard, it seemed pretty much a party atmosphere, but I think as the mood changed slightly as we saw many
Athenians taking to the streets. There was definitely a sign -- a sound of defiance, but also of weariness.
People were absolutely exhausted, and people, frankly, absolutely nervous about what will happen come Sunday. The realization, perhaps, that they
may be isolated from Europe, that Prime Minister Tsipras may actually win this, and many people fearing how that will impact their jobs and their
relation -- Greece's relationship with Europe.
So, without a doubt, a climate of fear, although one of many people trying to focus on that referendum, Richard.
QUEST: Isa Soares, who was with the "yes" rally tonight.
Before we go to a break, let me just explain the situation in the Greek capital tonight. You have these two very large rallies that have taken
place.
[16:10:02] The lights of this one, I apologize, but they're shining right back into your face this evening. It's an indication of the size, the
scale, 20,000 here, 20,000 at the other rally.
When we come back, the ripple effects of capital controls are being felt throughout Greek society. We'll talk more about how they're affecting the
health care system, hospitals running out of valuable, lifesaving drugs.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Greek banks have remained closed for an entire week. Now the depth of their financial woes is becoming painfully clear. The head of Greece's
banking association warns lenders have just a billion dollars left in cash reserves. Now, we're hearing reports that the ATM machines are running out
of 20 euro bank notes.
What does that mean? There's a daily euro limit of 60 euros. But if there are no 20s in the machine, then it can only give 50s, because that's how
the ATMs work. It's either 50s or 20s.
Those looking to the internet to solve the cash crunch may be disappointed. The online payments sites like PayPal reporting transactions from Greek
accounts have been restricted. And supermarkets say supplies could soon begin to run short. Drug makers are warning of shortages and lifesaving
medicines. Ordinary citizens are now voicing real concern.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANOLIS, GREEK PENSIONER (through translator): They don't give money to us. They gave me 120 euros the first time, the day before yesterday, and I
went and bought my medicine because I have heart problems, and I had to pay 77 euros. Now they tell me to come back in a week. How will I live this
week?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: My next guest is the head of Athens General Hospital. Now, he says essential medical supplies could run out within one week. Dr. Theo
Giannaros joins me in Athens. Doctor, how bad is the situation in your hospital?
THEO GIANNAROS, HEAD OF ATHENS GENERAL HOSPITAL: We are just struggling. At the moment -- in the meantime, we have almost everything. But this is
not going to last long, because after a week, two weeks, we're going to have very big problems because --
QUEST: Are you talking about running short of sophisticated, expensive drugs -- HIV medications and the like -- or basic antibiotics, sutures for
operating theaters?
GIANNAROS: Everything, actually. Because both of them are important. So, with the banks closed, it is impossible for the transactions to be done.
So, we started having some problems with milk products. We got letters from the companies that they cannot supply us after Monday with milk
products at the hospital.
QUEST: Why milk products?
GIANNAROS: Diary products from the company cannot import the substances they need to concern these products, yogurts, cheeses, and milk.
QUEST: And what about payment of salaries and this whole keeping the lights on and the infrastructure?
[16:15:02] GIANNAROS: Until now, we're getting paid, the people are getting paid. But I don't know what is going to happen tomorrow, because
we're running out of money. And this is something I know, you know, everybody knows.
QUEST: Has it come to the point -- do you think it will come to the point where you won't be able to buy medications?
GIANNAROS: I don't know. I cannot say that I know what's going to happen, because we need yesterday an agreement that the economy is going to start
running again. But actually right now we're at a dead point, and I couldn't say that I could mention to you what's going to happen.
QUEST: Right. But you've tweeted me today -- and the doctor is on this program tonight because of that tweet -- you tweeted me today --
GIANNAROS: Not me.
QUEST: Well, somebody did. But the point was you felt it serious enough to come here tonight.
GIANNAROS: Exactly. What I want to tell you is that our budget is very, very, very small. With this budget, we can maybe run this hospital. But
I'll just tell you two numbers. Last year, the first four months of 2014, all the big hospitals had a budget of 650 million euros.
The same four months of 2015 was only 47. Can you imagine the difference? But now, with the banks closed, how can we run -- continue running our
hospitals?
QUEST: Sir --
GIANNAROS: Thank you very much.
QUEST: -- thank you for joining us. I'll let you -- just wait there, I'll let you go back inside and work your way in. Please.
Now, with the country on the brink of financial disaster, Athens is scrambling for a way out of its debt quagmire. The finance minister, Yanis
Varoufakis, today retweeted a plan of action by the economist Jeffrey Sachs.
The Columbia University professor outlines four steps to solve the crisis. Firstly, he advised Greeks to vote "no" on this referendum. Then, he urged
Athens to stop servicing its debts and pay pensioners instead.
Jeffrey Sachs says the government must reassure its citizens their money is secure and that banks will reopen. And finally, he said, Greece and its
creditors must agree to a deal of reforms and debt relief.
There's been an academic debate here in Greece: 246 economics professors wrote an open letter saying a "no" vote would lead to a disastrous European
exit. Let's discuss what's taken place with Thanos Vamvakidis, the managing director of Bank of America Merrill Lynch, who joins me from
London.
Let's first of all, Thanos, find out where do you stand on the debate between the "yes" and the "no"? Are you prepared to tell me?
THANOS VAMVAKIDIS, HEAD OF EUROPEAN G10 FX STRATEGY, BANK OF AMERICA MERRILL LYNCH: It's very hard to tell, actually, because this is a
referendum on a proposal that is not viable anymore. No matter what is the outcome, this proposal will not be the program that Greece will have to
implement.
QUEST: So, with that in mind, the "no" campaign -- when you get Jeffrey Sachs asking for a "no" vote, do you find his arguments persuasive?
VAMVAKIDIS: I think his last point of the four points he mentioned is extremely important, that no matter what is the outcome, Greece will need a
new program that will include debt relief, conditional on reforms.
And I'm personally very concerned everybody's focusing on the outcome of this referendum. The point, however, is that the day after, when they look
at the numbers, they will realize everything looks much worse. The outlook of the economy will be much worse, the situation in the banks will be much
worse.
What it will take to stabilize the economy will be much more difficult. So, it would be almost impossible to finalize a deal in the next few days.
You many need much more than that. And in the meantime, the economy will be choking.
QUEST: All right.
VAMVAKIDIS: I think in the next few weeks, things might become much worse no matter what is the outcome.
[16:19:53] QUEST: Right. Now, the IMF says that Greece will need up to 50, 55 billion euros in any new plan. So, I ask you, how can this country
take more austerity without some form of debt restructuring in the future?
VAMVAKIDIS: Absolutely. We cannot pretend anymore that this debt is sustainable. And given the shock for the economy from the events of this
week, and most likely the aftershocks that will happen, Greece needs more funds from the rest of Europe in the next two to three years.
Politically, giving more money to Greece directly or through debt relief will be difficult for the rest of Europe, and they are very likely to ask
very tough conditions from Greece. We hope that these conditions --
QUEST: All right.
VAMVAKIDIS: -- will be more based on reforms than austerity, but this will require very difficult political decisions from both sides.
QUEST: And finally, again, back to the economists. You have these high- profile economists -- Stiglitz, Krugman, Sachs -- all saying that the "no" vote is the only way that Greece manages to get back together. Do you find
their arguments persuasive?
VAMVAKIDIS: I think people who support just "yes" or "no," sometimes they see only one side of the argument. People who want "yes," they want to
make sure Greece stays in the euro. People who say "no," they don't want another austerity program.
I think both are right. But the bottom line is that after what the country went through this week, it will be extremely difficult for the economy to
get back on its feet. The next few weeks -- most likely the next few months -- will be extremely difficult for Greece, unfortunately.
QUEST: Thanos, thank you very much for joining us. I apologize if you had some difficulty hearing me tonight. Look at the view over Syntagma Square
as we -- as this concert comes to an end. But there are still several thousand people on the streets. There is a party atmosphere out here, and
people fighting for what they believe is the heart and soul of the country.
We'll continue. Violence and intimidation, this time on the streets of France. That's what Uber says has been happening to some of its drivers.
We're going to hear the responses to scenes like this and the sort of violence that they've been suffering in a moment. It's QUEST MEANS
BUSINESS, we are in Athens, the place to be.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: QUEST MEANS BUSINESS, good evening to you. We're at the heart of the story tonight, we are in Athens. In France, Uber is suspending its
Uber Pop service, saying it must protect drivers from threats of violence.
There's been a wave of protest against Uber that broke out across France last week. Local cab drivers have accused the company of skirting rules
and licensing requirements and ultimately undercutting their business. Uber claims its drivers faced intimidation, violent assaults, and organized
ambush. Our business correspondent Samuel Burke is in our New York studio.
[16:25:01] First of all, as I've watched this -- and I haven't focused -- obviously, one has been distracted -- what's the difference between Uber,
as you and I might know it and our viewers know it, and this Uber Pop?
SAMUEL BURKE, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Richard, in my experience, the vast majority of people are more familiar with the main Uber service.
That's the side of the company that uses professional drivers, many of whom have had training.
And then there's Uber Pop, and this is the side of the company that makes the French taxicab drivers' blood boil. Uber Pop uses non-professional
drivers. Quite frankly, Richard, almost anybody can become an Uber Pop driver.
Let's say I'm heading out to New Jersey tomorrow, the 4th of July, to see the fireworks. I can use the app to see if somebody else is going there
and wants to pay me to take a ride.
Now, many people say it's been very clear that Uber Pop has been banned in France since October 2014, but Uber says it wasn't clear to them, and that
they were contesting the law, going to the next level of the court.
Now, after these dramatic protests, Richard, they're finally saying they're going to suspend the service, at least for now. A spokeswoman told us,
quote, "It's a tremendously sad day for our 500,000 French Uber Pop passengers, as well as the drivers who use the platform. However, safety
must come first."
And Richard, I have to say, in spite of these protests we see, tires being burned, cars being flipped over, and in spite of the bans from Netherlands
to New Delhi to Sydney, the Uber business keeps on driving forward. This company is eyeing a $50 billion valuation. So in spite of these problems,
the investors clearly want to be in Uber's passenger seat.
QUEST: Now, some Uber executives have been detained, two of them, were detained earlier this week. Do we know why they were detained and what the
status of -- there is at the moment?
BURKE: These men that you see right behind me are two of the top Uber executives in France. They actually spent time in police custody. They've
been released, but the French prosecutor's office tells us that they are actually going to face criminal charges in September in court, six
different charges, among them illegal taxi activity.
And Richard, I've spoken to many tech entrepreneurs, many tech companies in France, and I think what this shows, yes, Uber has pushed the envelope very
far, but they also say it shows that new business and old business haven't been able to communicate with each other.
The French government, the bureaucracy, and these new tech companies coming from the United States, coming up in France, just haven't been able to work
together to find middle ground. Nothing exemplifies this more than the situation of Uber and the French government.
QUEST: Samuel Burke. Samuel, thank you. Have a good July the 4th weekend in New York.
We're live in Athens, and after the break, whatever the outcome, Sunday's vote is likely to set up a chain of events, and that chain could change the
face of Greece. The what-ifs of the Greek referendum. It's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS, we're live in Athens.
[16:28:17] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR AND REPORTER HOST OF "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" SHOW: Hello, I'm Richard Quest. There's more "Quest Means
Business" in a moment when we'll take you to a historic week in Greece, in the words of those who said it and lived it.
And we'll show you how Germany's media is portraying the dramatic events behind me.
But before that, this is CNN an on this network the news always comes first.
Tens of thousands of demonstrators are gathered on the streets of Athens ahead of the country's referendum on Sunday. Two competing rallies are
being held, one in favor of the latest deal from the European creditors, the others opposed.
In a speech to the supporters of the "no" campaign, the Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras told his supporters not to bow to those who, in his words,
"terrorize the country."
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
ALEXIS TSIPRAS, GREEK PRIME MINISTER VIA INTERPRETER: Citizens of Athens, men and women of all ages who have found yourselves here in the entire
Syntagma Square, the roads of Athens, the streets of Athens and others cities - First an amer (ph) said you are not scared of the terrorism of the
last few days.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
(BELL TOLLING)
QUEST: The Queen joined a moment of silence across the United Kingdom in memory of the 30 British citizens killed a week ago in the Tunisia Beach
massacre.
Police were present on the beach in Sousse where the mourners also gathered to honor all 38 people killed. Tunisian officials have now stepped up
security as they look for more suspects who may have helped the gunmen.
The U.N.'s nuclear watchdog says more work is needed with Iran before a nuclear deal could be reached. The head of the International Atomic Energy
Agency has returned from meetings in Tehran.
Yukiya Amano said while both sides had a better understanding of how to move forward, there are main issues to be resolved. Talks in Vienna have
been extended to allow an extra week to reach a final deal. The Iranian foreign minister says a breakthrough is close.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
MOHAMMAD JAVAD ZARIF, IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: At this 11th hour, despite some differences that remain, we have never been closer to a lasting
outcome.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
QUEST: The zero fossil fuel Solar Impulse 2 has landed in Hawaii after its record-breaking trip from Japan. It's using only energy from the sun, the
aircraft completed its longest and most difficult segment in about 117 hours.
Uber suspended UberPOP in France saying it's worried about the safety of its drivers and passengers. The service has drawn angry protests from taxi
drivers who say it undercuts their business. Uber says drivers have faced intimidation, assault and an organized ambush.
Well, as you can imagine, from both campaigns - the "yes" and the "no's," it was an emotional day here in Athens. These were the way the
developments continued throughout the day. Greece's largest creditor says the country is officially bankrupt.
The European Financial Stability Fund added it won't immediately call in Greece's $145 billion-dollar debt. It's entitled to do so because Greece
has defaulted with the IMF and if the EFSF pulled a - pulled the - trigger, that would mean Grexit.
Sunday's referendum will go ahead. It cleared its final needle hurdle. Greece's higher court rejected appeals from two Greek citizens who wanted
to cancel the vote.
Jean-Claude Juncker contradicted Athens' claims that talks are ongoing with Europe. The commission chief said negotiations will be tough, whatever the
outcome on Sunday.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
[16:35:04] JEAN-CLAUDE JUNCKER, EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT: -- program has come to an end. There are no negotiations underway. If the Greeks
(inaudible) with no, they have done everything but strengthening the Greek negotiation position.
The Greek negotiation position will be dramatically weakened by a "no" vote.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
QUEST: The difference between disaster and delivery could well come down to two words - yes or no. The future of the Greek economy and the Eurozone
hangs on the decision of the Greek voters, that much is clear.
Nina dos Santos takes a look at their choices and what happens in each case.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Yes or no? One of these two words will decide Greece's destiny, and with it the future of the
single currency itself.
(CROWD PROTESTING)
DOS SANTOS: Unable to find common ground with its creditors, Athens has asked its people whether they accept or reject the stringent reforms set
out as part of the country's second, now-expired bailout.
The Eurozone and the IMF have made it clear they want a "yes." Greece's government has lobbied for a "no." Either way, the stakes couldn't be
higher.
JUNCKER: Even in the case of a yes vote, we'll have to face difficult negotiations. In the case of a "no" vote, the Greek position will be
dramatically weak.
DOS SANTOS: If Greece votes "yes," the chances of a deal with its lender would be higher. The prime minister and also the finance minister though
could fall on their swords and instead give way to a new government here which would enter fresh talks with the country's creditors.
Based on how those go, Greece may eventually get the money that it needs to urgently open up its banks, to pay back its debts and also to think about a
fresh spurred (ph) package in aid from here. This scenario makes a Greek exit from the Eurozone less likely, but do expect swift austerity as part
of the conditions.
ALAN MILLER, CHIEF INVESTMENT OFFICER, SCM DIRECT.COM: We've seen just a small element of the unfolding what can happen with not being able to get
money out of banks or a small amount. I mean, it's incredible what the ramifications could be, and nobody can really say how it would work out
under that scenario.
DOS SANTOS: If Greece votes "no," well, all bets are off. Hardliners in the Syriza-ruled coalition would feel their hands strengthened and push for
renewed negotiations and concessions on debt relief. Banks would remain shut and the country could find itself kicked out of the Euro.
A parallel currency might have to be issued before going back to the drachma, leaving its people poorer and the markets prey to uncertainty.
VINCENT JUVYNS, GLOBAL MARKET STRATEGIST, JP MORGAN ASSET MANAGEMENT: The "no" vote will definitely be suited to a very painful situation. The
situation's already painful in Greece at the moment. I believe the bank will remain shut for a longer time.
It will probably trigger for our ceased (ph) up our support of the ECB to the Greek financial sector, so you might expect a collapse of this
financial sector and a collapse of the whole economy.
I do not think that the Eurogroup and the Eurogroup has made it clear that a "no" would help negotiation as Mr. Varoufakis believe.
DOS SANTOS: Greece's leaders have pitched the referendum as a decision on austerity. Europe instead views it as a vote on membership of the Euro.
Whatever it means to each side, Athens could be just words away from a dramatic rescue or financial disaster. Nina dos Santos, CNN London.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
QUEST: Ah! An element of peace seems to have descended over Syntagma Square as the concert appears to have come to a close.
German media are weighing in on the situation in Greece, and by the look of the front pages, it's a mood of growing distain. Some examples of the
headlines in Germany - "One Man, Two Faces" - that refers to the Prime Minister Tsipras. "Failure of the Euro," "End Game of Europe" - showing a
tattered E.U. flag, and the cover of "Handelsblatt" the German business and finance newspaper shows Prime Minister Tsipras with a pistol to his head
and the sarcastic headline - "Pay Up or I'll Shoot."
Nicholas Gage is the former "New York Times" Athens correspondent and now writes extensively - at times prophetically - about Greece. He joins me
now, sir.
QUEST: I read your article putting it into historical context. When you put Tsipras' move into context, what do you make of it?
NICHOLAS GAGE, FORMER "NEW YORK TIMES" ATHENS CORRESPONDENT: He's a demagogue. A very effective one, but someone who is using the discontent
of the people to propel his own ideas and his own political ambitions.
QUEST: That's fairly harsh.
GAGE: Well, look at what's happened, look at for example -
QUEST: But what ambitions? I mean, he's got there, he is the prime minister. Some say he wants to take them - the country - out of the Euro.
Do you believe that's the goal?
[16:40:01] GAGE: Well, he wants to build - to establish - institutionally in Greece a long term for his party, and for that he needs money. And the
difficulty with the Europeans did not come over pensions and salaries, it came over spending. The Europeans wanted spending cuts, he wouldn't do it
because that's the only way he could hire new people, build his own political system and machinery.
QUEST: If he loses on Sunday, he's gone - do you believe?
GAGE: Here's the thing, the irony - if he - my feeling is - if he loses, he wins and if he wins, he loses. If he wins, the Europeans aren't give
him better terms, they're going to give him worse terms. The banks are going to stay closed, people are going to have very difficult time.
They're going to wind up blaming him. So it's a negative situation.
If he loses, I think he would have to go into a unity government and he will probably not participate in the government but support it in
Parliament.
QUEST: Right. But he must know the risk if he wins on Sunday. He genuinely believes - well, it's a question for you - do you think he
genuinely believes that the Europeans will give him better terms? He's genuine, he's bona fide, he's authentic in that view?
GAGE: No. He's inexperienced. Look at all the mistakes he's made. He may believe it, but it's absolutely wrong. The Europeans are going to give
him worse terms and he's going to have to accept them.
QUEST: So the point of view though that says whatever happens, the Europeans are going to give bad terms because the situation has
deteriorated so you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.
GAGE: I don't think if Tsipras is out of the picture the terms are going to be worse. I think they're going be -
QUEST: So he's right that the Europeans do want him gone.
GAGE: Well, it - they can't negotiate with him. I mean, he takes them to the final day and then without telling anybody he calls a referendum.
People in - responsible political leaders - don't pull the rug under the people you've built, influenced and gained through coalition-building,
through influence people. He's done the opposite.
QUEST: Final thought - where - without saying what you think the result is going to be, unless you wish to tell me that, -- where do you see the
momentum tonight after these two very substantial rallies?
GAGE: Well I've seen these kind of rallies for 50 years. In 1974 when the junta fell, there were a million and a half people. There were probably
150,000 today. So this is nothing to somebody who's come to Greece for a long time. I think it's very evenly balanced, and this is the problem.
Greece has gone through very difficult times when there's been national divisions - of Royalists and Republicans in the `20s and `30s, left
Communists and Nationalists in the `40s, and the people wind up paying for it.
QUEST: We'll talk about this next week, sir.
GAGE: Thank you very much. Take care.
QUEST: Thank you very much. Thank you. Now, intense pressure - stomach- churning maneuvers, sudden changes in direction. For once I'm not talking about Greece, it's me in an F-16 jet with some of the best pilots in the
business.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Scenes like this behind me are creating problems for Greece's tourism industry. The company's tourism professionals say bookings have
dropped by tens of thousands. The ferries that sail from Italy to Greece are noticeably quieter and some tourists say they're traveling to show
their solidarity with the Greek people.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
THOMAS SPARK, AMERICAN TOURIST: So we're going to Greece for a holiday. Even though there's an economic trouble, there's a lot of beautiful things
in Greece and so we're just going to go help them out.
ALESSANDRO, ITALIAN TOURIST VIA INTERPRETER: As well as going because I like going to Greece - I was there many years ago -- I want to give a small
contribution, just a small contribution on my part.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
QUEST: Staying with tourism, it's a very big weekend in the United States as the U.S. celebrates its independence on the Fourth of July. Fireworks,
patriotic displays and there'll be aerial acrobatics from the elite team of Air Force pilots known as the Thunderbirds.
The Thunderbirds are in Michigan this weekend. Before they went to Michigan, I joined them for an unforgettable ride into the wild blue
yonders over Colorado.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
QUEST: Many cadets join the Air Force for one reason alone - to become a fighter pilot. And here there's no more revered pilots than the
Thunderbirds.
The world-famous aerial acrobatics team. Today they have a new co-pilot. The other one is one of the best F-16 pilots in the business. America's
ambassadors (inaudible) - the real `fly boys' of the U.S. Air Force.
A quick suit-up and it's clear for today alone I'm a member of this team. Just slightly nervous. Checking this, checking that and it's time to go.
Male: (Inaudible) third take up 1-7 left cleared to 1 6,000. Thank you.
Male 2: (Inaudible) 1-2 roger.
PILOT: Are you ready?
QUEST: I'm ready.
PILOT: All right, here we go, this'll be the ride of our lives. You go power coming up, (aft) bird coming in.
Male: (Inaudible) quick climb to 16,000.
QUEST: The steep vertical climb, the G-forces slamming me into the back of the seat, the pressure immense.
PILOT: Nothing to that, huh?
QUEST: My God, that was sensational.
PILOT: Pretty smooth jet, huh, Questy?
QUEST: Very smooth. Unbelievably smooth.
Now for the real fun. First, the loop.
PILOT: And here we go, here come the Gs. There you go, that's some G maneuvering. How's that feel?
QUEST: It's intense.
Then the roll. Aw!
PILOT: Here we go rolling to the left.
QUEST: Aw, God help!
Before finally my stomach feels - hmm - a little odd.
PILOT: That make you a little queasy?
QUEST: Completely.
This co-pilot needs a breather and a chance to look out over the Colorado Mountains. Without doubt, the ride of a lifetime, and with it a respect,
an appreciation and an admiration. All too soon, my time as a Thunderbird comes to an end.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
QUEST: I can honestly say that was quite the experience of a lifetime. My stomach may have taken a slight holiday afterwards, but I would not have
missed it for a moment to be onboard that aircraft.
The crisis in Greece has thrown markets around the world into their own (inaudible) spin.
[16:50:02] The Chinese markets have added some drama of their own. Regulators suspect there may be foul play involved.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: After one of the most turbulent weeks of 2015, markets in China suffered their worst session of the week. The Shanghai Composite closed
down a further 5.8 percent on Friday. So if you look at the losses for the week overall, it's now 12 percent.
Regulators have opened an investigation into possible market manipulation. And we're told criminal cases will be referred to the security authorities.
The market remains up overall since the beginning of the year which is perhaps the most remarkable point of the whole escapade of what's happening
in Shanghai at the moment.
In Europe, the markets fell across the board - and look at how they fared on the week. Obvious reason it was happening in Greece - the DAX was down
nearly 4 percent, the CAC Current (ph) in Paris off 5 percent.
London which tends to go on its own frolics fell 2 and 1/2 percent.
Zurich which is absolutely not Eurozone and has its own independent forces is down just 1 percent over the five days.
We've been tracking the euro throughout the crucial 3eek. Now it was up less than a tenth of a percent on Friday. So if you look overall, it's
about half a percent off since the beginning of the week.
But look at the issues, look at the factors that were there that it had to deal with - the bailout, the bailout default, the Greek concessions, the
referendum on its doorstep.
Democracy and defaults have been part of the history of Greece for more than 2,000 years, and this week the two (caved/came) (ph) together in a
stunning coalition that'll be written about for decades.
On this program, we brought you the people who hold the country's future in their hands and we brought you the people and the voices who bear the brunt
of the leaders' decisions.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
Female: They do not respect us. They feel like the poor relatives of the Euro.
JUNCKER VIA INTERPRETER: After all my efforts and the efforts made by the Commission, I feel a little betrayed.
TSIPRAS: We will survive. We'll stand on our feet, we'll be alive and we'll go and practice our right to vote.
QUEST: You're saying now you will not pay - there is not the money in Greece?
Male: Exactly.
JEROEN DIJSSELBLOEM, EUROGROUP PRESIDENT: -- the last chance to get a solid extension of the old program has gone by. Greece is in default or
will be in default tomorrow morning. We are now in a difficult situation.
Male: If we had the vote of "yes," and I'm sure it's going to happen, then the government will find itself in a very, very delicate situation.
CHRISTINE LAGARDE, MANAGING DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND: We will continue dialogue, because I think it's important. I think it matters that
we stay engaged. A bit more adulthood would still be needed.
JEAN-CLAUDE TRICHET, FORMER PRESIDENT, EUROPEAN CENTRAL BANK: Trust which is so important in any negotiation is vanishing dramatically. Without a
credible plan, there is no chance to have growth and jobs.
(CROWD PROTESTING)
TSIPRAS, VIA INTERPRETER: "No" is a decisive move for a better agreement which we are planning to sign straight afterwards of Sunday's result.
[16:55:03] YANIS VAROUFAKIS, GREEK FINANCE MINISTER: -- if the Greek people under duress imposed upon them by closed banks from the Eurogroup,
decide that they want to say yes to the institutions, we shall respect it.
How we're going to do it and who will be the minister that signs it into law -
QUEST: It won't be you.
VAROUFAKIS: -- is neither here nor there -
QUEST: It won't be you.
VAROUFAKIS: I've already declared that it won't be me because I am not in the business of extending and pretending.
GIKAS HARDOUVELIS, FORMER GREEK FINANCE MINISTER: This vote is a vote about being a member of the Euro area.
QUEST: He says it's not.
HARDOUVELIS: Varoufakis is hi - he's hijacking the vote of the Greek people. This is not exactly -- doesn't follow international democratic
standards, baby.
TSIPRAS VIA INTERPRETER: Whatever we choose on Sunday, on Monday there will be absolutely nothing to divide us.
(CROSS TAPES)
QUEST: When the Greek people make their decision, we'll be in Athens. The polls open at 7 a.m. and a day of live special coverage including the first
exit polls as the country decides its economic destiny. That's "Greek Decides." We'll have a "Profitable Moment" next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Tonight's "Profitable Moment." Forget everything you've heard about difficult questions and people don't know what the voting is all
about, believe me they do. Greece this weekend has a very clear choice to make. The "yes" and the "no" campaign have both been on the streets and
now everything goes quiet - a day of reflection before the voting begins on Sunday.
Nowhere will the result be watched with such close attention than in the capitals across Europe. And that is "Quest Means Business" for this Friday
night. I'm Richard Quest in Athens. Whatever you're up to this weekend, I hope it's profitable.
[17:00:02] I'll be back with you on Sunday.
END
