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Quest Means Business
China's Most Polluted City; Reviewing Black Friday Sales; Climate Change Meeting in Paris; IMF Makes Yuan a Reserve Currency. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired November 30, 2015 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MAGGIE LAKE, HOST: It's a cautious start to the week. U.S stocks closed lower, it's Monday the 30th of November.
Promises, promises, world leaders vowed to meet the challenge of global warming. Now it's time for some cooperation.
Bill Gates tells us he is putting his money where his mouth is and backing clean energy.
And Brazil says it will sue those responsible for a mine disaster that engulfed a village and is now polluting the environment.
I'm Maggie Lake, and this is Quest Means Business.
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LAKE: Good evening. Tonight has been billed as the last chance to prevent irreparable harm to our planet. Leaders from 150 nations have begun climate
talks in Paris. Organizers say Monday was the largest single day gathering of world leaders in history. The task at hand, to keep earth from warming
by more than 2 degrees Celsius and to succeed where previous climate summits have failed.
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LAKE: Europeans are pushing for a legally binding deal. Leaders from the developing world want to make sure any agreement still gives them room to
grow. Meanwhile Barack Obama says progress doesn't have to at the expense of economic growth. Mr. Obama also linked the talks to the deadly attacks
in Paris two weeks ago.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We offer our condolences to the people of France for the barbaric attacks on this beautiful city. We
stand united in solidarity not only to deliver justice to the terrorist network responsible for those attacks but to protect our people and uphold
the enduring values that keep us strong and keep us free. What greater rejection of those who would tear down our world than marshaling our best
efforts to save it?
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LAKE: The heat is on the world's most powerful countries to come to an agreement. Past attempts have failed. There was the nonbinding Kyoto
protocol in 1997. The U.S. dropped out and China, India and many other developing countries were exempt.
Then there was Copenhagen in 2009. Leaders managed to agree that the rise in average global temperatures must be kept at under 2 degrees. In the end,
though, the talks fell apart and no commitments were made.
The real objective this time in Paris is clear, a legally binding commitment by nearly every country on the planet to reduce greenhouse gas
emissions.
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LAKE: Now some are warning that failure to halt global warming will have dire consequences, using sea level projections, the organization climate
central says if current trends continue, this is what London will look like at the turn of the next century.
It would be worse still in Mumbai where sea levels could rise nearly 11 meters. Wall Street looks unchanged at the 2-degree threshold. At 4-degree,
the U.S. financial center capital is under water.
Rising temperatures are also lined to an increase in extreme weather in the past two decades since governments have begun trying to get a deal. The
U.N. says there are more than 600,000 people have died in incidents related to catastrophic weather.
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LAKE: Jim Bittermann is in Paris for us and has been watching the events all day. And Jim, were the - at least the first day - was the first day of
the summit as productive as many had hoped it would be?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think we're hearing an awful lot of the same sort of sentiment from all the leaders, the kind of thing that
you led the program with - that basically the idea that this is the last- chance summit, we have to make - we have to do something now. And we've got to do this to save the planet.
That's what the sort of universal starting point is, but when you get down to the details, for example, what you mentioned there, the
binding/nonbinding agreement, most of these countries, a lot of the countries are saying it should be a binding agreement if it's going to
work. The White House told us again tonight that, in fact, they don't -- the U.S. doesn't see it that way at all.
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BITTERMANN: That binding agreement would drive people away from the table. They'd rather have everybody at the table with their targets and make it
nonbinding. Of course that's for domestic political reasons as much as anything else. Because I think the Obama administration realizes that it
would have a very difficult time getting a binding agreement, which would be a treaty, through the congress. Maggie?
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LAKE: You know, Jim, I think people look at the events and say, the fact that all of these world leaders have turned up in force, they're there
personally, it sends a really strong message. But are they raising expectations too high? Every country no matter how small has a voice at
this table, and they can actually scuttle the deal if they don't get what they want. There's a lot of interests to pull together.
[16:05:03]
BITTERMANN: Well exactly. And that's why it's been kept very general, exactly how this is going to work. For example, one of the things that
leads people to be very optimistic is that 180 -- more than 180 of the 195 nations who are represented here have come up with targets, have come up
with commitments that they're going to try to keep to for the next five years, over the next century. They've come up with a plan. That alone is
enough that make this conference different from anything that's happened in the past.
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BITTERMANN: But whether or not anyone will comply with those agreements down the line, there's no enforcement mechanism. The only way to really
enforce it is to name and shame countries that don't live up to their commitments. And that of course is a pretty powerful tool, but nonetheless,
it's not anything that would restrict countries in terms of changing their minds two years down the line or five years down the line or at some other
point, Maggie.
LAKE: And we're right to discuss some of the hurdles that remain. But it definitely seems a different tone, than other summits and a lot of people
still holding out hope that they can make some serious progress there.
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LAKE: Jim, we know you'll be watching it all day tomorrow as well. Jim Bittermann for us, thank you so much, Jim.
Now some of the companies funding COP-21 are being accused of green wash.
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LAKE: A group called Corporate Interaccountability International say companies with large carbon footprints or companies involved in financing
polluting industries may be sponsoring the summit only to acquire a greener image.
Joining me now is Tamar Lawrence-Samuel, Policy Director for Corporate Accountability International.
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LAKE: Thank you so much for being with us tonight. You know we're all familiar with the term I think now greenwashing. What is it that you're
most upset about what are the companies - or who are the companies not walking the walk, so to speak?
TAMAR LAWRENCE-SAMUEL, POLICY DIRECTOR, CORPORATE ACCOUNTABILITY INTERNATIONAL: Yes, the companies that we're most upset about, that we're
talking about in the report that we released at this COP are NG, (inaudible) and (Electricity de France). These are four companies in a
long list of corporate sponsors of COP-21 who are -- that are corporations that are driving the climate crisis. And here they are sponsoring the talks
as well. This might feel like fiction. But this is the reality that we're in right now.
LAKE: Tamar, do you believe these companies are doing this for public relations reasons only or do you think they're actually trying to influence
policy?
LAWRENCE: I think it's a combination of the two. The public relations stunt of sponsoring the COPS as a polluter buys you credibility or a legitimacy
that is undeserved. So what this buys you is at the COP, it buys you access to negotiators. And then at the national level, it buys you the legitimacy
to provide policy advice to negotiators.
And what that does is at the national level, it influences national policies and then it influences and interferes in the negotiating positions
of the government delegates who come to these meetings. And that, as a result, derails and weakens and blocks strong and necessary environmental
policy outcomes.
LAKE: So people would say, listen, business has to be a party to this. Change may be slower than you would like but that they need to be involved.
What is a productive way to include them in the discussion so that it's not a stunt, so that real progress is made?
LAWRENCE: The outcomes that will result from these negotiations have to be party driven. They have to be the outcomes of negotiations of sovereign
governments.
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LAWRENCE: Because only governments are democratically elected and have the best interests of people and the planet and the environment at heart.
Private corporations are business corporations and have a profit motive. Their business model is predicated on an ability to maximize profit. And
what that looks like for a lot of the corporations involved in this process is burning, extracting and using fossil fuels. Those two aims, the aims of
these corporations and of the negotiations, are in direct contradiction.
LAKE: I'm going to push back on that a little bit Tamar because you are hearing from others that there has been a change in sentiment, that
businesses are actually feeling the negative impact of climate change.
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LAKE: It's actually hurting their business and that there is a different view in the executive office about approaching this in a more proactive way
than there has ever been before. Do you not buy that?
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[16:10:03]
LAWRENCE: I think until these businesses are no longer in the business of extracting and burning fossil fuels, we're talking about P.R. stunts. We're
talking about small, voluntary initiatives that we are confusing for real, meaningful change. And that can't - that can't result in meaningful change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAKE: Tamar, thank you very much for joining us. Appreciate your time tonight.
Now one of the richest people in the world says clean energy is the best way to battle climate change and he's recruited fellow billionaires to the
fight. Microsoft co-founder and philanthropist Bill Gates will launch a multi-billion dollar clean energy initiative.
He wants to speed up research, development and investment in technologies that will combat global warming. Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg and the
Alibaba chairman, Jack Ma are among those backing the clean energy initiative. Gates spoke earlier with Christiane Amanpour and Chris Cuomo.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL GATES, CO-FOUNDER MICROSOFT: Well the key to getting increased commitments to avoid the temperature rise that we want to avoid is going to
be innovation. We need to bring the cost premium for being clean down. And the partnership that's key to that is governments funding basic research
and private investors, like the group of 28 people I brought together, to take the high-risk venture investments and turn those into products so that
we can have clean energy that's not more expensive than today's hydrocarbon energy.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You say the gigantic commitment of governments, but a lot of them are still pumping out fossil fuel emissions.
A lot of them aren't doing what they need to do because there's no enforcement mechanism. So how do we get that part straight so there can be
an even playing field on people moving forward with innovation?
GATES: Well, the best thing of all would be to get competitive with the price of hydrocarbon. Some countries will use a tax approach to help
bootstrap that, which is good. There's been a lot of tax credits involved. There's been a lot of what are called renewable portfolio standards. But in
the long run, you need the innovation so that the cost of clean is as low or ideally lower than the coal-based energy generation.
And that's why the science is so exciting now. It is risky but basic research from governments, plus entrepreneurs like this group of 28 that
includes the University of California, I think that lays the foundation over the next decade we'll fund over 100 companies and enough of those will
be successful to make this challenge.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Mr. Gates, what do you hope beyond what you're about to launch along with President Obama and President
Hollande, what we've been talking about, that the governments can do? Because many people say, oh, unless all the governments actually get
together, sign on to something that's legally binding, which this will not be because of the problems with the U.S Congress, that it just won't work.
For instance, China which has made all sorts of promises about capping its emissions, it's been emitting 17% more of coal and those types of emissions
that it either knew or made public. What is your hope, therefore, for where governments can lead?
GATES: Well, it's very tough to have a framework for commitments. But five years from now, why will people increase those commitments? And how can we
make it more feasible so that we can get almost all those countries meeting their commitments as well as improving them? And the answer is innovation.
I've seen innovation in the digital space. In the interspace it doesn't happen as fast, it's harder. But now we're bringing together literally
billions on the public side and billions on the private side. And that's going to get a lot of start-ups going. So it won't be as hard to make
commitments -- I think that's key. If we didn't have innovation, I don't think we'd ever get to where we need to be.
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LAKE: China gets an invitation to join an exclusive economic club, that story in full after the break.
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LAKE: China got its invitation to an elite economic group on Monday. The IMF uses a basket of four reserve currencies as a benchmark for valuing
other assets. The yen, the euro, the British pound and U.S. dollars.
They're known as what's called the special drawing rights basket, a little worrying but that's what it's called.
Next October, however, drum roll, the Yuan will be added to the basket, not actual size. It's seen as an important recognition of China's rising
economic clout.
IMF Managing Director, Christine Lagarde said China has made significant reforms.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTINE LAGARDE, IMF MANAGING DIRECTOR: Clearly an enormous amount of work has been undertaken by the Chinese authorities, both in terms of
macroeconomic framework, in terms of statistics, in terms of financial market organization and supervision.
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LAKE: Joining me now from Washington is Eswar Presad, a senior fellow at the Washington base think tank the Brookings Institution. Thanks so much
for being with us. This was widely expected. But was it the right decision by the IMF? .
ESWAR PRESAD, SENIOR FELLOW BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: At one level, the IMF had no choice. Because China is now the second largest economy in the world
and the IMF needed to give China this so it would have legitimacy in the eyes of China and the emerging market world.
It might have been a bit premature in terms of technical considerations. But for China it's very good. It gives the reformers in China an added
momentum because it validates all the reforms they've undertaken and I think it's going to be good for the global monetary system over the long
run.
LAKE: Eswar, can you expand on that a little bit? Because a lot of people are wondering, it sounds wonky. Why does China want this so much? Why is it
so important to them? What do they gain and what do you mean it's going to help the pro-reform contingency in China? How so?
PRESAD: The prestige is a big factor for China because now China's currency is seen as one of the elite currencies. In fact, the weight of the Chinese
Yuan in the (inaudible) basket has been tagged at 11%, which is ahead of the Japanese Yen and the pound sterling so by that measure, the Chinese
currency is now ranked third in the world.
But what is really important is that in order to meet all the criteria that the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, had laid out for the eligibility
to the basket, they had to put in place forms over the last several years. Like liberalizing the rates that the banks charge on loans that they also
give out on deposits, Making the currency's value more market determined. So all of these reforms got done over the last year because there was a
deadline. And that, I think, is going to be important for China.
LAKE: That's interesting. So it is a reward for moving in the right direction. A lot of people would argue some of those moves towards
liberalization, though, are a little fraught with peril at the moment. We saw a lot of volatility in China over the summer and a little bit of sort
of moving forward and moving backwards as well.
Is this going to be smooth sailing for the market? Will it have a real impact on market operations? Anything we need to be worried about?
[16:20:14]
PRESAD: There is certainly going to be volatility as China transitions to a market economy because this is not an economy that's used to market forces
operating freely and the government still has a slightly schizophrenic approach to letting the markets work freely on the one hand and maintaining
stability and control on the other hand. It's going to be a game-changer in terms of capital flows. We won't have money flooding into China right now
unless China develops its financial markets, gives foreign investors easier access. So the big changes are still to come but this is an important step
along the way.
LAKE: Eswar, I'm wondering, there are of course always political implications. Is this going to bring China closer to international
partners, to the U.S., align the countries' interests or is it going to put the U.S. and China in competition and raise tension?
PRESAD: On the economic front, fortunately it's not a zero sum game which meaning both countries can in principle benefit.
If China opens up its financial markets more, it gives the U.S. more opportunity for its financial institutions to enter the Chinese market and
now the Chinese have the same interests that the U.S. have in maintaining global financial stability. So overall, it could work out to the advantage
of both countries in the long run.
LAKE: Interesting. We're going to look back at this I think as a very important pivot point. Eshwar, thank you very much for helping us
understand it a little better. Eshwar Presad for us tonight.
Well from long lines to online, Cyber-Monday looks set to beat Black Friday in the battle of the bargains.
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LAKE: We'll look at what it means for retailers.
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LAKE: Today is a big deal for retailers. It's Cyber-Monday and here in the U.S., online sales are expected to top $3 billion for the first time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAKE: Adobe Digital Index says must-have toys and electronics are selling out quickly and especially if they're tied to the Star Wars movie. It
follows a weekend of price discounts online and in stores.
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LAKE: On Black Friday, the crowds going out to the malls were lighter than expected. Some people say that's because a lot of shoppers are going
digital instead. Reports from Adobe and IBM showed a double-digit rise in online spending on Black Friday with 57% of traffic on mobile devices.
CNN Money Digital Correspondent, Paul La Monica joins me now. When I hear that Paul, I think people are price comparison, taking care of those apps
that help you get the best deal, and I've seen some really good ones in my inbox today.
[16:25:14]
PAUL LA MONICA, CNN MONEY DIGITAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh without a question. I think the key though is that one reason why Black Friday may no longer be
as important and obviously Cyber Monday is one reason it's just that so many of these retailers are stretching these bargains for days.
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LA MONICA: It's really is almost Black November and it becomes Black December as well. So I think consumers realize that they don't have to jump
just on the day after thanksgiving and even today for the good bargains.
LAKE: So they're pushing a lot of product. But with all this really heavy discounting, are they going to make any money?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LA MONICA: That's a great question. And you see a lot of retailers that have already struggled this year. I think the concern on Wall Street is
these companies are going to sell a lot of things but maybe at a very low margin. Wal-Mart's stock down today. Target, Best Buy actually up, so maybe
investors betting that they're a Black Friday, Cyber Monday winner.
But Amazon, that stock has more than doubled this year. So Wall Street clearly voting who they think is the retail winner. It's amazon well ahead
of everyone else.
LAKE: Absolutely, and when you're pressed for time, you can get a lot of different things on Amazon, with the shipping, that helps them so much.
Paul, the broader market looked like it would set up for a constructive start today. Then we really faded as the day went on. What's on the minds
of investors?
LA MONICA: Yes, I think everyone is eagerly awaiting some big macro news at the end of the week.
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LA MONICA: We've got the ECB meeting obviously which could give us more hints about more stimulus from Mario Draghi. And then we have a crucial
U.S. jobs report on Friday for November. If those jobs gains are good, then I think everyone's going to expect the FED will definitely raise rates in
December. At last check, FED's funds futures indicating about 78% likelihood of a rate hike.
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LA MONICA: And if that happens, you've got the ECB already easing and the FED starting to tighten, even though you know raising rates from zero isn't
exactly tight. It's going to be tighter than what's going on in Europe. So people are starting to wonder, what is that going to mean going into 2016?
Does the dollar get even stronger versus the Euro and what's that going to mean you know for big multinational companies whose profits could take a
hit?
LAKE: That's right, it has been a (inaudible). Certainly a lot of crosscurrents to watch for this week, Paul. Thanks so much, Paul La Monica.
LA MONICA: Thanks Maggie.
LAKE: Most European stocks headed higher Monday listed by expectations as Paul just mentioned of more economic stimulus from the European Central
Bank.
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LAKE: The ECB expected to extend its asset buying program when it meets on Thursday.
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LAKE: Now To understand why the climate talks in Paris are so important, all you have to do is look at the smog covering Beijing today.
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LAKE: And it's not even china's most polluted city. We'll show you what it is after the break.
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[16:31:07] MAGGIE LAKE, CNNI: Hello, I'm Maggie Lake. There is more "Quest Means Business" in a moment when, when (ph) is it China's most
populated city where the smog is so thick, sometimes you can't see the house next door.
And we're live in Brazil where the government says it will sue BHP Billiton and its partners over a mining accident that caused an environmental
disaster.
Before that, this is CNN and on this network the news always comes first.
A political moment like this may not come again. U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon says the world must take the opportunity to change direction as
leaders gathered for a crucial summit on climate change.
They're hoping to come up with an agreement to help slow the pace of global warming. Experts say as average temperatures rise by more than 2 degrees
Celsius, it could bring on disaster.
Barack Obama says the U.S. will face up to its responsibility to get something done about climate change. The U.S. president says his country
is the world's second largest carbon emitter and the time to act is now.
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BARACK OBAMA, U.S. PRESIDENT: This is a turning point. This is the moment we finally determine we would save our planet. Because the fact that our
nations share a sense of urgency about this challenge and a growing realization that it is within our power to do something about it.
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LAKE: Russian President Vladimir Putin says Turkey's reason for shooting down a Russian warplane was to protect supplies of oil it's getting from
ISIS.
Turkey's president has denied the accusation and told Mr. Putin he should prove such allegations. The two won't be meeting on the sidelines of the
Paris summit.
Relations between the two countries have been rocked since Turkey shot down a Russian warplane it said violated its airspace. Russia denies that.
Two Israeli teenagers have been convicted of murdering a young Palestinian last year. The victim was beaten then burned alive.
The killing and the killings of three Israeli teenagers sparked a wave of violence that led to the Gaza War.
The man accused of a deadly shooting at a Planned Parenthood Clinic in Colorado has made his first court appearance.
Robert Dear is being held without bail following Friday's shooting in which three people were killed.
Pope Francis is on his way back to the Vatican after a six-day tour of Africa. He spent his final day visiting a mosque in Bangui, the capital of
the Central African Republic.
The city has previously seen violent clashes between Muslims and Christian militias. The Pontiff also visited Kenya and Uganda.
The actions of one nation in particular is seen as crucial to tackling climate change. China is the world's biggest producer of greenhouse
gasses. President Xi called Paris talks a new starting point but also said governments must take account of their own national interests.
Beijing's chief COP21 negotiator spoke to CNN. He told Steven Jang China is taking climate change seriously but its emissions will continue to rise
in the immediate future.
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XIE ZHENHUA, CHINESE REPRESENTATIVE ON CLIMATE CHANGE. VIA TRANSLATOR: As China gradually completes its industrialization, carbon emissions from
industries may reach their peak earlier than expected but the country still has a long way to go when it comes to urbanization.
So emissions from construction, transportation and service sectors will keep rising. Looking at the broader picture, we feel the goal of having
emissions peak at around 2030 is a scientific one.
STEVEN JANG, CNN PRODUCER: But there seems to be some contradictory signals. We have read reports about the government issuing more than 150
permits to build new coal-fired power plants this year alone.
[16:35:06] ZHENHUA, VIA INTERPRETER: In the past decade, the capacity of coal-fired power plants that we've shut down is more than the nationwide
capacity of Great Britain.
As we close those backward and inefficient power plants, we have replaced them with more efficient, cleaner power plants and our total carbon
emissions won't go up much.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
LAKE: While leaders debate what to do for the future, scientists say climate change is already here and is a growing threat.
This is what it has been looking like in Beijing. Authorities have activated the city's highest pollution alert so far this year, raising it
to orange.
Residents are being told to stay indoors. But Beijing isn't the country's most polluted city. That is Baoding just south of the capital. CNN's Matt
Rivers sent this report.
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MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: These are streets choked with pollution, thick enough to see, to burn your eyes, to leave an acrid taste in your
mouth. This is Baoding, China's most polluted city where daily life goes on under the cloak of a toxic shroud.
Jao Schwong (ph) grew up here. He's raising his young son here and the air they breathe is always on his mind.
JAO SCHWONG (PH), INTERPRETED BY MATT RIVERS: When the pollution gets really serious, we can't even see the buildings next to us. He says you
can't even describe how bad the smell is.
RIVERS: Like thousands of others here, he gets ready for work each morning then heads out into the haze as a coal power plant churns out toxins above.
Jao (ph) works in the energy sector too though his factory hopes to make coal obsolete.
This is Yingli Solar, one of China's largest solar power companies right in the middle of Baoding and business is booming.
The company says they have plans to more than double their current capacity by 2020.
ALLEN GENG, YINGLI SOLAR, INTERPRETED BY MATT RIVERS: I believe there will be a large increase in renewal energy industry, no matter it's solar power,
wind power or others.
RIVERS: In 2014 Chinese companies invested over $80 billion U.S. dollars in renewal energy projects. No country in the world invested more.
And yet despite all of that, renewal energy accounts for only 10 percent or so of China's energy supply. This is a country where coal remains king.
Many families keep piles of coal like this one to burn for warmth during the winter months. It is a major pollutant but it is also cheap and it is
efficient, and because of that, it accounts for between 60 and 70 percent of China's energy supply.
Coal use actually slowed in 2014 but the country still consumes nearly as much as the rest of the world combined. China is the world's largest
greenhouse gas emitter but the government has said its emissions will peak by 2030. To hit that goal, they'll need the help of companies like Yingli
and workers like Jao Schwong (ph).
SCHWONG (PH), INTERPRETED BY RIVERS: "I'm very concerned about my son's health," he says. "If the air pollution stays like this, he won't ever be
able to leave the house."
RIVERS: So he hopes his work will help make things better so his son won't be afraid to take a deep breath. Matt Rivers, CNN Baoding, China.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
LAKE: New Delhi is also suffering from hazardous smog today. When we come back, how the business communities' view climate change is shifting.
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[16:41:15] LAKE: We return now to our top story tonight -- the climate talks taking place in Paris.
We Mean Business is a coalition of organizations working on climate change with more than 400 companies and investors including Virgin, Ikea, Air
France, KLM, Daimler, Coca-Cola and Shell.
I asked the CEO of We Mean Business if he's seen a shift in thinking among business chiefs.
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NIGEL TOPPING, CEO, WE MEAN BUSINESS: Yes, there's definitely been a C (ph) change. I think that two things have led to that - 1) I feel like on
the positive side, is that people now believe that technology can deliver.
We've seen the costs come down so fast with a successful deployment of technology with renewables reaching parity or better with fossil fuels in
many parts of the world.
So that's - now people are like -- they're not betting on a high-risk strategy.
They know they're going to see a lot of big companies now committing to 100 percent renewable electricity.
You know, Apple famously I think it's $800 million that they've committed to spending on that and now building out on that supply chain in China.
So the first thing is when the technologies moved on a lot since Copenhagen, the last big hopeful summit.
The second thing I think has changed is that there's a different - there's a broader group of business actors in the conversation now.
Instead of it registering those who are involved in the energy system who saw climate change perhaps as a policy threat, requiring disruptive change,
you've now got a whole host of consumer goods companies, chemical companies, retailers who are starting to see the negative impact of climate
change and increased severe weather events, disrupting their supply chains around the world.
I mean, you know Paul Polman when you talk about the hundreds of millions of dollars of extra costs that his company Unilever are already seeing, so
I think that broader group of business leaders are saying we need to deal with this problem because we can't do business on a planet that's
struggling with all these disruptive changes which are putting costs onto business and costs onto society.
So, much faster deployment, a lot of (ph) cost of technology and a much broader realization of the down side of climate change that we don't deal
with.
LAKE: When we talk about this issue, you can get everyone - I mean, you don't find many people who want to say I'm against doing, you know, clean
energy or I'm against saving the planet or being environmentally disciplined, but it's when you get to the detail that it gets a lot
tougher.
Do businesses - does the business - community have a preference on which model we follow? Or do they just want clear road maps and clear landmarks
so that they can make decisions for the future?
TOPPING: I think it varies, right. I think - I mean - there's an overarching desire for a very clear signal of the direction of travel which
business can and investors can believe in. So, you know, policy U-turns are very dangerous for economies.
Politicians sometimes forget that. In simple terms, it increases the cost of doing business, it increases the cost of capital. If policymakers say
one thing one year and then change their minds the next year. So business wants clear direction.
Yes, of course you're right that the devil is often in the detail. You know, if you're looking, for example, at the issue which business is
calling very loud before, you know, to put a price on the pollutant carbon dioxide - that's - it matters how you do that.
If you're a cement company and so your process emits carbon dioxide, then you want to make sure that you're not - you have prices imposed on your
cost of doing business which makes you uncompetitive versus one of your competitors in a country which doesn't have that kind of pricing on the
pollutants.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
LAKE: Now, the COP21 summit has been billed as one final chance to avoid permanent damage to the planet.
[16:45:05] The Estonian prime minister is one of about 150 world leaders in attendance. I asked if him he thinks a serious agreement can come out of
this gathering.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
TAAVI ROIVAS, ESTONIAN PRIME MINISTER: I am optimistic for I have seen great readiness for contribution from all kinds of countries, be it really
very rich countries, be it developing countries, countries from all kinds of regions.
So I really am optimistic and as an Estonian, I of course support very much reaching an agreement and even more reaching an ambitious agreement.
LAKE: It's one thing to reach an agreement, it's another to enforce it. What do you believe is the best way to make sure that countries stand by
the targets that they're putting out?
ROIVAS: Well in the European Union we have managed to reach these kind of agreements that are actually binding and everybody takes them very
seriously.
I believe that something similar could be reached also on the global level. Of course it helps a lot if we continue to monitor our progress. On annual
basis every time we meet and this is the best guarantee we can give each other.
LAKE: There is I know a push from the Europeans to try to make sure that this is a binding agreement, but that's a non-starter here in the U.S. Can
we declare the summit a success if we walk away with agreement in theory but with something that is not legally binding?
ROIVAS: Well, sometimes a word given is as binding as any contract. And I listened very carefully for what President Obama had to say and I was
convinced.
I was really convinced that U.S. is ready to contribute a lot to fighting climate change, to targeting the issues on the table so I take his word for
it.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
LAKE: Brazil gets tough with the world's biggest miner BHP Billiton could be facing billions of dollars in fines after a mining disaster. We'll take
you live to Rio.
First though, a highlight from "Make, Create, Innovate."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:50:05] LAKE: BHP Billiton stock fell in Sydney and London on Monday. The world's biggest miner expects to be sued for more than $5 billion by
Brazil.
Thirteen people died after a dam at an iron ore mine failed earlier this month sending masses of mud and waste pouring into the nearest village and
into rivers.
Prosecutors are investigating whether the mine's owners did a proper job of monitoring the dam.
Shasta Darlington joins me now from Rio. And, Shasta, the pictures of this, I mean, everyone has seen them and their really seared into people's
minds. Is the Brazilian government saying that this could have been prevented?
SHASTA DARLINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's definitely part of their argument, Maggie. I think that it's two-fold here.
First of all, at the summit in Paris today during her speech, Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff - one of the first things she said is - thanks to
a couple of irresponsible companies, Brazil has suffered its worst environmental disaster ever.
So on the one hand, they're talking about prevention, they could have been taking better care of these wastewater dams.
But there's also the warning system that's part of the human tragedy here. And I remember BHP Billiton is joint owner of the Samarco Mine operator,
along with Brazil's Vale. And it was at the beginning of this month that those dams burst.
And while initially the dam - the toxic sludge - rushed to over and flooded the town below, killing more than 12 people as you mentioned, it also
covered 800 kilometers of a river bed, went out to the ocean destroying the water supply for hundreds of thousands of people, the ecosystems, even the
coastline - fish were washing up.
So the idea is up until now BHP and Vale had talked about setting up an emergency fund. They'd also suffered some pretty small fines.
So this is Brazil finally flexing its muscle and saying no, we're going to make these companies pay for the damages. Could they have been better
prepared to avoid the disaster - to at least warn the residents when it did happen? These are the two questions of course that they want answered and
this fund would be used for - to - set up a ten-year environmental cleanup plan for the whole Rio Duce water river basin.
LAKE: Yes. It's an enormous amount of area it was able to cover. Shasta, meanwhile, as if there weren't enough troubles, more headlines coming out
involving the Petrobras scandal. What can you tell us there?
DARLINGTON: Exactly. Remember last week the CEO of BTG Pactual, Latin America's biggest independent investment bank, -- he was arrested along
with the governing party's leader in the Senate.
Well, he's now resigned when it became apparent that he was going to be kept in jail for quite some time.
This is because prosecutors believe that he was obstructing justice, that he was trying to suppress the testimony of one of the key witnesses in this
ongoing bribery investigation involving the state-run oil company Petrobras.
So he resigned, two founding members of BTG Pactual have been named the two new CEOS, but Andre Esteves will retain his 28 percent share in the bank
and also a golden share that gives him veto rights.
He's really the face of the bank, so it's just hard to imagine where it will go from here. He turned it around, made it what it is today and even
bought back shares when he wasn't getting the love from the investors that he thought the bank deserved.
I think this also raises questions about who could be tainted next in this ongoing investigation involving huge bribes paid to Petrobras officials and
politicians for very lucrative contracts, Maggie.
LAKE: Right, and Shasta, when you take all of this news together, it cannot bode well for Dilma Rousseff.
DARLINGTON: Absolutely not. She just hasn't had any good news on any side, and while she went to Paris to participate in this summit - Brazil is
an important player, benefits from one of the biggest chunk of the Amazon Rain Forest, so she's trying to play an important role on the international
stage and maybe divert some of the attention.
But we've also got the economy which we haven't mentioned today, Maggie. But Brazil is mired in recession. Tomorrow we're expecting third-quarter
GDP figures to show that it's just getting worse, Maggie.
LAKE: Yes. And all that's going to be trouble and why investors are continuing to sort of ratchet up those odds that it may in the end cost her
her political career, but we'll see. Hanging tough for now.
Shasta, thank you so much for bringing us right up to date on all of the news coming out from Brazil.
Now the man who spent his life testing cars on the ground shows us something that will soon be in the air. It's Amazon's new drones and
Jeremy Clarkson of all people says they're coming to a home near you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:58:16] LAKE: Amazon's latest ad features a controversial former "Top Gear" host, a bulldog and a fleet of drones.
Jeremy Clarkson who was picked up by Amazon after he was fired by the BBC helped unveil Amazon Prime Air.
That's what the company is calling its future delivery drone service. Amazon wants customers to support the project because so far it has not
gotten approval from safety regulators in the U.S. and U.K.
It promises to deliver your purchases within half an hour.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
JEREMY CLARKSON, AMAZON REPRESENTATIVE: It's the day of your daughter Millie's big football match, and to be clear that is the sort of football
you play with your feet.
Anyway, she is missing a vital piece of equipment, specifically a Sonny's (ph) 3 (ph) Puma EvoPower Firm Ground Soccer shoe - the left one. And some
of it sadly is in the family's three-year-old bulldog, Stuart.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
LAKE: Looks familiar, doesn't it? Then an Amazon drone swoops in of course to save the day and delivers the shoe just in time for the big
match.
Clarkson says in the not-too-distant future Amazon will have a whole family of drones - different designs for different environments.
Well, I'll leave you with a final check of the market. Stocks in the United States closed lower on the last trading day of November.
The Dow Jones Industrial average finished Monday down 78 points - that is four tenths of one percent.
It still managed to stay positive for the month as a whole though.
Most European stocks headed higher Monday, lifted by expectations of more economic stimulus from the European Central Bank.
The ECB is expected to extend its asset-buying program when it meets on Thursday.
That's it for "Quest Means Business." I'm Maggie Lake in New York. The news continues here on CNN.
END
