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Quest Means Business

Lebanese National News: Prosecutor Summons Ghosn for Interrogation; Carlos Ghosn Speaks Publicly After Fleeing Japan; Ukrainian Airlines Flight Crashes After Takeoff in Iran; Carlos Ghosn Breaks His Silence; Trump Promises New Economic Sanctions On Iran. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired January 08, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:14]

RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, QUEST MEANS BUSINESS: Good evening from Beirut. Tonight, the S&P 500 are at records, the reasons why we'll

get into during the course of the program.

Also tonight, Carlos Ghosn breaks his silence. The former Nissan boss tells me he had no choice when it came to leaving Japan as a wanted man.

President Trump promises new sanctions on Iran, responding to attacks on military bases.

And the search for answers in Iran after a Ukraine Airline 737 crashes on takeoff, killing everyone on board.

We are live in Beirut in Lebanon. I'm Richard Quest on Wednesday, January the 8th. And of course, as always, I mean business.

Good evening, tonight, Carlos Ghosn very firmly on the offensive. In his first public comments since he fled as a fugitive from Japan, Carlos Ghosn

addressed the world's media and gave some interviews, telling his side of the story only days after the dramatic escape.

This former Titan of the auto industry laid out details of what he called a plot to oust him from Nissan, all to prevent deeper integration between

Nissan and Renault, and Ghosn named top executives, excoriated Japanese prosecutors, and said he has the evidence to prove that he is innocent.

I sat down with Carlos Ghosn for a wide ranging interview, which we'll deal with and get to in just a moment.

Ghosn said his decision to leave Japan was a matter of dying there or getting out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLOS GHOSN, FORMER NISSAN CEO: I did not escape justice. I fled injustice and persecution -- political persecution.

I have endured more than 400 days of inhumane treatment in a system designed to break me and unwilling to provide me even minimal justice. I

was left with no other choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Carlos Ghosn said reaching freedom in Lebanon was being like being born reborn. He didn't though give any details on the escape that stunned

the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST (voice over): By the time the prosecutors showed up in Carlos Ghosn's home in Tokyo, it was too late. His audacious escape to Lebanon

caught his own lawyers by surprise.

JUNICHIRO HIRONAKA, LAWYER OF CARLOS GHOSN (through translator): I am dumbfounded. Personally, I don't even know yet how to make contact with

him.

QUEST (voice over): Ghosn was finally out on bail, forbidden to leave Japan. His passports taken from him. His communications restricted. He

couldn't even keep in contact with his wife.

His escape sent off a wave of speculation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The great escape, they're calling it here in Lebanon.

ELENI GIOKOS, CNN BUSINESS AFRICA CORRESPONDENT: A Turkish private jets company says a rogue employee helped former Nissan CEO, Carlos Ghosn escape

from Japan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ghosn was reportedly smuggled out of Japan inside a large case meant for musical instruments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST (voice over): All Ghosn has said is that his family didn't help him. Prosecutors accused Ghosn of underreporting his income and funneling

millions of dollars of Nissan's money to a car dealership he controlled.

Ghosn has denied the charges. His family insists the justice system in Japan is rigged.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAROLE GHOSN, WIFE OF CARLOS GHOSN: It was a system that's made to break the person, so they confessed to a crime even to crimes they haven't done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST (voice over): The Japanese prosecutors say criticism of the justice system is no excuse for fleeing, and they haven't rolled out trying to get

Ghosn back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MASAKO MORI, JAPANESE JUSTICE MINISTER (through translator): We can extradite under the reciprocity principle, but we need to consider this

carefully.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: I spoke to Carlos Ghosn after his news conference. I wanted him to separate the facts from the myths of his escape.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GHOSN: There are many rumors and they're not all in line with one or the other either. I want to tell you something. For example, at the beginning

they said that there is a band which came to my house in Tokyo for Christmas and, you know, this band somehow was kind of rehearsal. Then I

went into the box that came -- took me from the house, et cetera.

The whole story is wrong. Why? Because the prosecutor now went to my apartment. There is a monitoring of all the people who are in the house.

And they said, no.

QUEST: So I'll clarify. The rumor and suggestion I'm talking about involves a train trip to Osaka, a hotel, a box and a flight and of two

private jets via Turkey. Is that substantially accurate?

GHOSN: I would make no comment on this. I'm going to tell you why, Richard, because obviously, I was lucky to have people who supported me in

this. Because you know, when you are in a situation where you're in trouble with justice, you don't have too much candidate to help you.

I was lucky and I need to as much as possible protect them.

QUEST: Right. Those people, some of them are facing criminal proceedings potentially, in Turkey. How do you feel about that?

GHOSN: I feel bad about it.

QUEST: But there's not much more you can do really, is there?

GHOSN: Well. You know, we knew from the beginning, what are the risks, you know, involved into an operation like this. We all knew that. I knew

what were my risks, I knew what are the risks of all the people who supported the operation.

So we all knew that and we obviously know how much we can do to help, but not more.

QUEST: Okay. What about Mr. Kelly, who remains in jail -- well, he is on bail, I beg your pardon, in Japan. There's a sort of feeling of you got

out and he is left behind to carry the cow.

GHOSN: Well, first, I was not able, as you know, in Japan to contact Greg. I was forbidden completely. My bail condition and his bail condition

forbidding completely any contact between us.

So the only contact possible was through our lawyers. So even if I wanted to help, Greg, I couldn't. I couldn't. Because there was no

communication.

QUEST: But is there a feeling -- can you understand the feeling that you've left him behind to face the music alone?

GHOSN: I'm not sure about that because I didn't leave Japan to hide somewhere. I left Japan, because I'm looking for justice, and I want to

clear my name, which means I will be looking for a country where I could have this case tried, but with a trial respecting the rights of the

defense.

QUEST: So to clarify this, you are willing to stand trial for these allegations?

GHOSN: Yes, I do.

QUEST: And have you had discussions with jurisdictions yet as to where that might be?

GHOSN: No, because you can imagine that if I'm in Japan, I start to discuss this kind of topic, this would attract the attention.

QUEST: But would you accept that any trial would have to be under Japanese law in the sense of that's the law that you broke. Maybe the system of

justice that delivers it would be different.

I'm thinking of the -- there's a good precedent you may be familiar with, of course, the Lockerbie bomber, who was tried in The Hague under Scottish

law, is that the sort of thing you're thinking of?

GHOSN: No, I am thinking about, you know, depending on the country where this will take place, every country would accept a different kind of trial.

The only thing I'm looking for is a trial where the rules or the rights of the defense would be respected, which I thought in Japan was not the case.

QUEST: One thing seems clear is that you are regarded as a fugitive by others in the world and that's not going to change is it?

GHOSN: Well, you have to explain. You know, people don't like fugitive when the fugitive is escaping justice. It is a different opinion when a

fugitive is escaping injustice.

You know, I don't think that people look at people who are from North Korea, or from Vietnam, or from Russia under the communist regime, as

people who are running from justice.

Well, frankly, I can tell you that means, in the system in which I've been through, I consider that there was practically zero chance I would get a

fair trial. With zero chance of getting a fair trial. I don't think that is justice, in other words, I am not running from justice. I was looking

for justice.

QUEST: At what point did you decide, you'd have to go.

GHOSN: A few weeks ago -- a few weeks ago. And what led me to that first is that everything I was seeing in the pretrial was leading to the fact

that the trial will not be fair. Second, I was hoping that they will fix the date of the trial. It was not fixed. Until now, I don't know.

Greg Kelly doesn't know when these trials start. Thirteen months after -- 13 months after we've been arrested -- and third, the ban on my wife, which

really was something that I could not understand, for nine months, I can't see her, I can't talk to her. And they told me that this may continue for

another one year and a half.

[15:10:15]

QUEST: And you then decided that was it.

GHOSN: Too much. It is too much.

QUEST: Do you accept that you broke the Japanese law in leaving that way?

GHOSN: I accept the fact that I broke the Japanese law by leaving this way, yes.

QUEST: Japan as you might have already quite heard, today, they've said -- the prosecutor said as a result of your press conference here that you

failed to justify your act. You were deemed a flight risk, which indeed you were because you fled. And his one-sided criticism of the Japanese

justice system is totally unacceptable.

GHOSN: It is laughable. It is laughable. I've been under their control for all this time, had zero rights. They put on me bail conditions which

are very strict. I didn't have phone. I could not go on the internet. I couldn't see my wife. I was monitored all the time. I had followers all

the time.

So in a certain way, when they have a suspicion on somebody, what they would like is to keep him in prison until he is judged.

QUEST: But, one ends up with this feeling of you can't pick and choose the laws you like.

GHOSN: No, I'm sure.

QUEST: You can't pick and choose the jurisdictions you like.

GHOSN: I'm sure. I'm sure. I don't. But if -- and I am not picking. The only thing is, I don't want to be in a system where there is no

justice.

QUEST: What was the moment like for you? When you realized you had escaped? Different people will pass judgment moral and legal upon what you

have done. That is something you will have to bear in your conscience.

GHOSN: Yes.

QUEST: Until death. But for you that moment, when two -- I want to go to two sections of it. The moment when you started the execution of the plan,

during and at the end, tell me.

GHOSN: Let me put you -- I'm going to tell you exactly what situation I am in. I have never seen somebody escaping the prison in Vietnam, who had any

bad feeling about doing that. Why? Because he was hostage. And he was not fleeing the rule of law in Vietnam.

He said, I'm a hostage. I'm here to be punished. I have no fair trial, and I'm escaping. So I'm in the same situation. I am not feeling bad

because somehow I put myself outside the control of people who want me -- to put me in prison independently of the truth.

QUEST: But were you nervous?

GHOSN: Oh, yes, I was nervous.

QUEST: Did you fear it was going to go wrong?

GHOSN: I was anxious, but I was not afraid for a very simple reason. It is frankly I had nothing to lose in the situation. For me, in Japan was so

bad. My perspective was so dark and the fact that I lost any face of having a fair trial, that this encouraged me to decide to leave Japan.

QUEST: And the moment -- I mean, humor me. The moment, the plane is an international space. And you pretty much know it's going to land in

Lebanon. What was that moment like?

GHOSN: Well, as you know, it was not going to land in Lebanon, it was going to land somewhere else, but I felt --

QUEST: But then after --

GHOSN: I felt relieved. I felt relieved. Yes, I felt relieved. I felt relieved. And you know, the first thought I said is, finally, I'm going to

be able to see my wife. That's my first thought.

QUEST: I'm just going to go for this and hope that you'll give me an answer. What was it like in the packing case?

GHOSN: No comment. Look, freedom, freedom, no matter the way it happens is always sweet.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: Now, Tokyo prosecutors have fired back at Ghosn tonight saying as we heard that he failed to justify his acts, and his criticism was totally

unacceptable.

They also said -- there's a statement tonight from Japan's Justice Minister, who said that the countries should be judged on their individual

systems and that Japan's system was fair and justice could be obtained.

CNN's Will Ripley is in Hong Kong with more. Will, you were our correspondent in Tokyo for many years. In Tokyo, in Japan, they have a

99.4 percent conviction rate. Now, the Japanese are finding themselves having to justify their legal system.

WILL RIPLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And the fact, Richard, that they held a press conference at midnight in Tokyo, it was in English which

as far as we know, is unprecedented.

[15:15:00]

RIPLEY: It shows just how seriously Japan takes these allegations, targeting the, you know, basic human rights that it provides for people who

are locked up in its judicial system.

It's an issue I covered extensively in Tokyo. Japan says, look at our crime rate, enviable, very low, and they think that's all the justification

they need.

But there are others and Carlos Ghosn, certainly one of them who felt that he did not have the opportunity to even give his side of the story that he

thought that they were trying to basically bully him into confessing.

QUEST: So on that point of confessing. He said to us today, he was frequently told, just confess, just confess, and it'll all be over and done

with. He was interrogated for up to eight hours a day with no lawyer present. He was kept in solitary confinement for weeks.

This is what he says, does this all sound like the Japanese justice system that you're familiar with?

RIPLEY: Absolutely. Carlos Ghosn was in a perfectly fine jail cell, a room where he basically had to sit quietly on the floor in the corner with

upright posture or else a guard would bang on the door for multiple hours a day. I don't think he ever got to go outside.

And this is before he actually even went to trial where you're supposed to be presumed innocent. This is because he didn't confess.

So it doesn't surprise me that Ghosn claims prosecutors told him if you were to just confess, the whole process would move along more quickly.

Yes, Japan has more than 99 percent conviction rate, but there are some who claim that prosecutors will basically do anything to get a conviction and

will also do anything to try to coerce people to confess.

QUEST: Will Ripley in Hong Kong. Will, thank you, sir. Good night. Now, President Trump says Iran appears to be standing down and is suggesting

there won't be further U.S. military action.

The tit-for-tat, for the moment seems to have come to an end. But there will be punishing new sanctions.

And more from Carlos Ghosn later in the program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: How bad was it in prison there?

GHOSN: Oh, very, very bad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Welcome back. It is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS tonight from Beirut.

President Trump is promising fresh and new economic sanctions on Iran. Speaking from the White House after Iran's retaliatory attack, the

President says sanctions remain until Iran changes behavior.

[15:20:07]

QUEST: He says as Iran appears to be standing down, and he urges European allies to leave the nuclear deal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The time has come for the United Kingdom, Germany, France, Russia and China to recognize this

reality. They must now break away from the remnants of the Iran deal or JCPOA.

And we must all work together toward making a deal with Iran that makes the world a safer and more peaceful place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Now, the market seemed to be greatly relieved by what appears to be an ending of the military stance between the two countries. The Dow, well,

it's up 250 points, as you can see there on the screen, more than 250 points. The NASDAQ and the S&P are at record highs and oil, which had

risen quite sharply and then stayed pretty tempered.

Now, oil is down some four percent at the moment. Crude is down four percent.

Mike Pompeo is expected to brief reporters in just a moment. CNN's Boris will of course bring that to you when it happens. CNN's Boris Sanchez is

at the White House.

President Trump had said that if Iran hit or made any form of military attack with missiles, then he would continue and he would ratchet it up.

Well, Iran did do that. But it would seem both sides have agreed to leave it at that.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Richard. And we're actually just getting some information from our colleague, Jim

Acosta here at the White House. He has spoken to a senior administration official who has effectively told him that last night as the White House

was getting news that Iran had launched these strikes at these air bases. There was the consideration of perhaps launching a quick retaliatory

strike.

Ultimately that official telling Jim, that the President decided to wait to gauge Iran's intentions to ultimately respond in a much more measured way,

proportionate to Iran's decision to launch these strikes.

What we're hearing from the administration is that Iran intended for these strikes to be limited. They apparently aimed for areas of these bases that

were not frequently populated. Ultimately, there were no casualties from the U.S. side. And that played a role in this softer retaliation from

President Trump simply rolling out new economic sanctions instead of that crushing military response that he had promised, as you stated -- Richard.

QUEST: Okay, so assuming for the moment that neither side is going to move, or at least take further military action, this is not over yet by any

means. Iran certainly is not going to cooperate with Western demands on nuclear proliferation.

SANCHEZ: That's absolutely right and really what the administration is watching now is what Iran's proxies in the region do. Because as you know,

Richard, we've seen Iran historically respond to any outside aggression with a very different timetable.

This may be the official clear response that Iran claims, but under the surface, we've seen them use the Houthis in Yemen, for example, Hezbollah,

different proxies, Shia militias in the region to exact revenge or to further their effort to remove a Western influence from the Mideast.

So the administration is closely watching these proxies, try to ensure that any response from Iran is met as the President has made clear in the past,

any action taken by these militias, the U.S. will hold Iran squarely responsible -- Richard.

QUEST: Boris Sanchez, who is at the White House. Thank you, sir. Back now to Carlos Ghosn who said here in Beirut that he is going to be working

in the future to clear his name.

He is referring to the allegations made while he was still CEO of Renault and Nissan. It was the executives at Nissan that led the investigation

which led to the charges that he had misappropriated funds and there was a breach of trust.

I asked Carlos Ghosn what had he done at Nissan that made apparently executives collude with prosecutors?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GHOSN: They didn't like the fact that I was ready to act on part of the management because of the decline of the performance of the company.

QUEST: Fire the CEO of Nissan.

GHOSN: That's it. The second one is they didn't like the fact that I was going to create a holding company that would create one company, one chair,

one board, but still keeping the autonomy of Nissan and the autonomy over Renault in that. They didn't like the system.

And they said, why do we have to make these kind of concession that gets rid of the guy and then we keep our organization the way it is? And

frankly they were successful in doing that.

[15:25:06]

QUEST: But when you hear of the allegations, the houses, the planes, do you think you -- to use the phrase -- you pushed the boat a bit far? You

took advantage of the system?

GHOSN: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Well, everybody was happy that I was CEO of three companies. But being CEO of three companies means

extensive use of the plane. It means that your private life is reduced to the minimum. And from time to time when you are able to have a moment for

you is very limited -- and all of these things.

So everybody was happy when I was managing the three companies and then all of a sudden, all this suspicion came. By the way, everything about the

plane, everything about the houses is not in the charges.

I mean, the charges in Japan have nothing to do with that. The charges in Japan are about under reporting compensation that were not fixed. They

were not decided and they were not paid.

QUEST: But you were going to get that money in the future.

GHOSN: Not sure. Not sure.

QUEST: It was the intention.

GHOSN: Well, it was my intention. But it's not because you have the intention to get something that it is going to happen.

QUEST: How bad was it in prison there?

GHOSN: Oh, very, very bad.

QUEST: I mean, Japan is a G-7 country. It is a -- for want of a better word -- western-style democracy. The companies, I mean are fated around

the world. You're telling me this is all not true, or that at least there are -- there's a major deficiency when it comes to the legal system?

GHOSN: Yes. Well, I think there is a big contrast between the modernity of Japan when it comes to industry, when it comes to trade, when it comes

to technology, and when it comes to the legal system.

In my opinion, the legal system is archaic. You know, they still they have the death penalty over there and they're very proud of it. They told me

during the discussion that they are very proud to have the death penalty.

They have a system by which you can be interrogated by the prosecutor without presence of a lawyer.

QUEST: And were you interrogated for long periods of time?

GHOSN: I spent in prison 130 days. From the 130 days, I was practically interrogated half of the time. This up to eight hours of interrogation,

very late at night and that's it.

QUEST: With no lawyer?

GHOSN: No lawyer.

QUEST: When did you -- did you ever feel like you were going to confess?

GHOSN: That's what they want.

QUEST: Well, I know you. I heard you say in the end, just confess.

GHOSN: Well, and we have the --

QUEST: Just confess.

GHOSN: Yes, just confess and you will be relieved, and just confessed and we're not going to bother your wife. Just confess, we're not going to

bother your children. It was clear. It's in the tape.

QUEST: But did you ever think about doing that?

GHOSN: Never. Because I didn't trust them. I didn't trust them. I didn't trust them that they would stop doing this. I didn't trust them

that you would get any bail out. I didn't trust them.

I think they were not here to establish the truth, they were here to establish a strong case to their favor. You don't get 99.4 percent of

conviction rate, Richard, by being a nice guy and following all the rules. You get 99.4 percent of conviction rate with no deal -- with no deal.

In the United States, conviction rate is very high. But in the United States, you got to make a deal. You know, people say, okay, you're guilty,

I'm going to give you a reduction of this and a reduction of that. Not in Japan.

QUEST: Would you have made a deal?

GHOSN: Well, it depends on what the deal --

QUEST: But I mean, what I'm saying is, you know, the accusations --

GHOSN: Well, at you're going to listen to what -- there is no deal over there. There is absolutely no deal. So yes, when you say you have 99.4

percent of conviction rate, that means no deal, which will mean that if they win 99.4 percent of the time, which makes the prosecutor absolutely

remarkable people and the defense, absolutely not smart -- the people are not very smart.

QUEST: So to the idea that there's no smoke without fire, to the idea that, oh, come on, Carlos must have been up to something.

GHOSN: Yes, I know. That means --

QUEST: He was living high on the corporate dollar -- yen.

GHOSN: Yes, well you know, frankly this is as old as the world exists. You know, if you want to lie on somebody and you want to destroy their

reputation, you launch a lot of accusation and say something that is going to stick.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: More from Carlos Ghosn today and tomorrow.

In just a moment, Iranian officials are now starting an investigation into why a Ukrainian Airlines Boeing 737 crashed on takeoff out of Tehran,

killing all 176 people on board.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:00]

RICHARD QUEST, HOST, QUEST MEANS BUSINESS: Hello, I'm Richard Quest, there's more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS in just a moment when we will hear --

well, might discuss what might have happened to the Ukrainian International Airlines 737 that crashed on takeoff out of Tehran. All that in a moment,

first, though, this is CNN, and on this network, the news always comes first.

Lebanon's national news agency says Carlos Ghosn has been summoned for interrogation on Thursday by the state prosecutor over INTERPOL's red

notice. Earlier, the former Nissan chairman spoke out for the first time since jumping bail in Japan as he fled injustice and accused Japan of

violating basic principles of humanity. Japan's news -- prosecutors are calling the criticism one-sided. Speaking to me on QUEST MEANS BUSINESS,

Ghosn said he was nervous about the dramatic escape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLOS GHOSN, FORMER NISSAN CHAIRMAN: I was anxious, but I was not afraid for a very simple reason is frankly, I had nothing to lose. I think the

situation for me in Japan was so bad, and my perspective was so dark, and the fact that I lost any face of having a fair trial that this encouraged

me to decide to leave Japan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: President Trump says Iran appears to be standing down. That's a good thing for the world, he says. Mr. Trump says no American or Iraqi

lives were lost after Iran launched retaliatory attacks against bases in Iraq housing U.S. troops. But Donald Trump says Iran will face punishing

new sanctions. Iran's supreme leader says his country gave the U.S. a slap in the face for killing its top General Qasem Soleimani.

A U.S. official is telling CNN that intelligence is now taking a look at the crash of Ukraine International Airlines flight that went down on

Wednesday shortly after takeoff. All 176 people on board were killed. The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorders have been found. Iran

apparently does not have a plan to give either to Boeing or the U.S. to be read out.

[15:35:00]

The Duke and Duchess of Sussex say they are stepping back as senior members of the royal family. Prince Harry and Meghan say they will work to become

financially independent, and plan to spend their time between the U.K. and North America. Buckingham Palace has just issued a statement, saying

discussions with the couple are at an early stage and these complicated issues will take time to work through.

U.S. aviation regulators have banned U.S. carriers from flying over Iran and Iraq. Few actually if any were actually doing it. But the tensions of

course between the two countries has certainly ratcheted up the risks. The FAA has now designated a no-fly zone that covers Iraq, Iran, the Persian

Gulf and the Gulf of Oman. The area is a major transit route between of course, Europe and the East.

The ban does not apply to non-U.S. carriers, but they also say they're changing routes. David Soucie joins me; former FAA Safety Inspector.

Let's deal with the crash first, David. Can we -- can we eliminate nefarious activity, missiles, rockets and the like yet, do you think?

DAVID SOUCIE, FORMER FAA SAFETY INSPECTOR: I wouldn't eliminate them, Richard, but at this phase of any accident investigation, as you know, you

can't eliminate anything. But I'm leaning not at that direction. In looking at the photographs, I think there's some other explanations that

might be better suited.

QUEST: Such as?

SOUCIE: Well, for example, when I'm looking at these wings and the structures that some people are saying that looks like a missile attack, it

hit it. If you compare those with what we saw in MH-17, which was a surface-to-air missiles book, that it does not look like that to me.

There's not a specific pattern, it looks like --

QUEST: Right --

SOUCIE: These things came from different directions which that indicates to me that these were perforations and problems after the aircraft had the

impact with the ground and it rolled. That's not the way I'm looking at it. What I'm looking at right now is the turbine section of the engine has

an extrusion. In other words, there are something that came from the inside-out, and following that particular spot, there's streaks, there're

scars and scrapes and smoke, actually, that came from that in line with the line of flight which indicates that, that happened before the impact. So,

that's what I would be looking at first on the investigation.

QUEST: Seventy -- the plane was at about 7,800 odd feet just a couple of minutes into the flight. Some reports were that there was a fire or that

they could see a fire on board, and certainly the video, the deserving video of the plane coming down to the ground does show it to be on fire.

But, you know, pilots are trained to deal with engine fires and the like.

I understand this is the most critical time of flight, but what's likely to have happened that meant the pilots were overwhelmed?

SOUCIE: Well, at this point, Richard, what could have happened, if we're going to go along this line of some kind of mechanical failure would be the

fact that an uncontained engine failure. Now, we've talked about these before, and we've had people that have been hit by debris from the engines.

But just as equally possible is that, in this particular area of the --

QUEST: Yes --

SOUCIE: Engine, there are other critical pieces such as fuel controls and that sort of thing. So, if it ruptures and if it's significant enough --

QUEST: Right --

SOUCIE: To cause a rupture of a fuel cell, then at that point --

QUEST: Yes --

SOUCIE: You have something more than what you can deal with because it's burning the fuselage and the structure of the airplane which has to be

dealt with immediately, and so that would explain a couple of things. It would explain why the pilot didn't make a --

QUEST: Right --

SOUCIE: Distress call as well because he's dealing with that.

QUEST: The Iranians apparently say they will not hand over the black boxes, the flight data and the flight voice recorder to Boeing or the

Americans. Now, firstly, do you know whether the Iranians have the competency to read out these machines, and if they don't, where will they

go, Russia?

SOUCIE: They may be able to do it, Richard, but they certainly don't have the experience to be able to do it in the proper way, and that's what I

worry about. They would probably go to Russia, again, I think that's probably correct. But as you know, with the United Nations rules and the

ICAO rules, those boxes are supposed to go then to the manufacturer or the country that built and manufactured the airplane as well to be part of this

investigation, which to my knowledge at this point, the U.S. nor Boeing has been invited to be part of the investigation.

[15:40:00]

QUEST: Now, that of course is in the treaty that the state of manufacturer and design is to participate. But more bluntly, David, do you have

confidence in the Iranians as the state of occurrence to do a report that will be fair and get to the bottom of what happened here?

SOUCIE: Absolutely not, Richard. I do not have confidence that the Iranians are going to do that. All you have to do is turn on to CNN and

look at what's happening over there and what's happening between the U.S. and Iran, what all is happening and between Iraq and Iran to understand

that there's too many risks with the custody of that data. That data is critical at this point and it needs to be protected and the chain of

custody needs to be maintained.

QUEST: And finally, the air space, very few airlines are flying over those countries at the moment. But the truth is, flying over both Iran and Iraq

is extremely useful when going from Europe or indeed from some North American routes down towards India, and it can be extremely difficult long

detours if you're going to pass them by.

SOUCIE: Yes, absolutely, Richard. That can create extreme problems, and as long as you're flying at the prescribed altitude above 30,000 feet,

let's say, then there's very few missiles that can actually reach you, other than a book like we saw with MH-17. So, I think that they're

accepting those risks and going ahead and flying in those areas. I'm scheduled to be in Baku, Azerbaijan --

QUEST: Yes --

SOUCIE: In another month or so with IATA, and I'm actually trying to figure out how I'm going to get there if I can't go that route.

QUEST: I'm sure we'll find a jewel's route for you. We'll take you around the world on the way. David Soucie, thank you for joining us tonight on

that story. Now, we'll have more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Welcome back to our coverage of Carlos Ghosn speaking for the first time at his press conference here in Beirut. He talked a great deal about

why he had come to Lebanon. Well, I asked him, bearing in mind he can't leave Lebanon. He's stuck here whether he likes it or not -- was leaving

Japan really escaping?

[15:45:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: It might seem to some that you've substituted a very small cell in Japan for a much larger one here in Lebanon where you can't go anywhere.

You can't leave the country. You and your wife are both at risk. Would you go to France? Would you even risk getting on a plane to go to France

even though, the minister there has said you would not be extradited?

GHOSN: Yes, well, as you know, there is a red notice that the Japanese government has sent through INTERPOL, my lawyers say we can fight the red

notice, and particularly, we can eliminate the red notice if we can explain our case particularly if it's considered as a political case. They're more

competent than me to tell you what's going to happen.

But obviously, first, I don't consider myself as a prisoner in Lebanon, I'm very happy to be here, I can tell you. I prefer this prison to the one

where I was before. You can imagine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Michael Zeldin is with me; former federal prosecutor and a CNN legal analyst, he joins me now from Washington. Michael, let's put aside

for a moment, as a prosecutor, your thoughts on him escaping this particular way. The Japanese legal system as put forward by Carlos Ghosn

today does seem particularly draconian. Is it much worse than say being locked up at Rikers Island in New York?

MICHAEL ZELDIN, FORMER U.S. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, assuming one is locked up in Rikers Island pending trial because they couldn't make bail,

there're still a judicial and legal system that presumes innocent -- innocence that allows you to cross-examine witnesses, to have a trial in

court. The Japanese system really is geared toward confession and pleas, and they do not have the same presumptions of innocence.

They do not have the same right to counsel, they can be, you know, interviewed by police and prosecutors for hours and hours on end without

representation. So, there's no comparison between the rights a Rikers Island detainee has --

QUEST: Right --

ZELDIN: And a Japanese detainee.

QUEST: So, Michael, do you consider Carlos Ghosn to be a fugitive who should be returned to Japan to face trial?

ZELDIN: Well, it's hard to understand exactly what is at the bottom of the allegations. He says that he's essentially being framed and blamed for the

failure of Nissan and the efforts to have Renault take over the combined organization. They say he stole and misappropriated assets. So, we don't

know really what the truth of the matter is.

But he surely is a fugitive from justice as Japan calls justice. But whether or not he's appropriately a defendant, if you will, in a case is

very hard to assess, Richard, from this standpoint.

QUEST: Right, and this is the difficult part here because Japan says defendant Ghosn should be returned. That different countries have

different legal systems, so be it, but theirs in their view is fair. Now, he's a prisoner in -- not a prisoner, he's in Lebanon, but he's effectively

a prisoner within the country, and that he can't leave, the Lebanese don't extradite their own citizens. And then you've got INTERPOL with the red

notice. So, it's a true international legal mess. How do you resolve it?

ZELDIN: Well, if you're him, you stay in Lebanon. I mean, it's sort of like Snowden in Russia. Snowden can't leave Russia because there are red

notices out, and if he were to go to a country where he can be apprehended, then he could be provisionally arrested and theoretically extradited. Same

situation here.

So really, he has to expect -- unless the Japanese prosecutors reach a settlement with him or drop the charges, that he's going to spend the rest

of his natural life in Lebanon because that's the only safe place for him to be.

QUEST: Michael, thank you for the insight into Japan's system. Thank you, we appreciate it. Now, we will --

ZELDIN: My pleasure --

QUEST: Have a look at the markets. There are records to be had, and we'll have that in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:50:00]

QUEST: Welcome back. Let's return to the plane crash in Tehran that killed 176 people on board. Ukrainian International Airlines has now

released the names of the crew, the pilots, and crew on board of 752, and says in a statement, there was minimal probability in their words, that the

crash was due to an error by the crew who were described as highly experienced. Even so, there are -- there's an investigation under way.

CNN's Matthew Chance with this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An eyewitness out of breath captures the dramatic moments after Ukrainian International Airlines

flight 752 dropped from the skies. You can see the burning wreckage of the airliner smashed to pieces, strewn across a vast area outside of the

Iranian capital.

Another witness seems to have recorded the exact point of impact. God help us, he cries as a bright light streaks across the night sky before turning

into a fireball and plunging into the ground. Airline officials confirm there were no survivors.

VLADIMIR SEMENSHENKO, UKRAINIAN INTERNATIONAL AIRLINES (through translator): There were 167 passengers and nine crew members on board.

Of the passengers, two were Ukrainian citizens, the rest were Canadians, Iranians, Germans, Swedes and Afghans.

CHANCE: Already, Iranian emergency teams have recovered the black box flight recorders from the crash site, essential to explain what went wrong.

Ukrainian Airlines says the aircraft was one of their best planes. A 3- year-old Boeing 737-800 with what the airline describes as an excellent, trustworthy crew. It seems to have been a tragic coincidence that the

crash happened within hours after an Iranian missile strike on U.S. bases in Iraq.

But the Ukrainian Embassy in Tehran has now deleted a statement, saying terrorism or a rocket attack has been ruled out as a possible cause.

Instead, Ukraine's president has now dispatched a team of investigators to Iran to establish the truth, in his words, and to find those responsible

for this terrible catastrophe. Matthew Chance, CNN, Moscow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: Matthew Chance reporting there. Now, just before we leave you, let's take a look at the markets. We haven't had as much time tonight to

talk about them as we normally would, obviously, with the Carlos Ghosn interview. But the Dow is well worth talking about. It is up 180 points.

Look at the way the graph has gone, and you can see at the beginning or the middle of the day, that rise came about after it became clear that

President Trump was going to take last night's action by Iran as pretty much being it.

[15:55:00]

There's no -- unlikely to be any other further tit-for-tat. In addition, looking at the price of oil, you've managed to get a reduction of 4 percent

in oil, it's come down as a result, of course, again similarly of those comments by President Trump. Oil is down at $68.50. And finally, the

triple stack as we call it, the Dow is up just a fraction, half of a percent, but the Nasdaq is at a record high, the S&P 500 is just shy of its

record. We will have our profitable moment after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Tonight's profitable moment from Beirut. It's very difficult to know what to make of the situation with Carlos Ghosn. As a trained lawyer,

I recoil at the idea that the man has escaped from justice. The rights and wrongs of what he may or may not have done at Nissan really need to be

tested in a court of law.

But then, you listen to what Michael Zeldin said about the Japanese justice system, and you hear the way Carlos Ghosn was treated, and you start to

wonder, he said he had no choice. It was either that or he would die within the system. The fact is, though, different countries do have

different justice and judicial systems.

Germany, for example, does not have juries in most of its criminal cases. It's tried by a judge alone, and nobody would suggest that Germany doesn't

have full and fair protections and proper justice. The British system can be large, lumbering and can be very difficult, cumbersome to operate.

Now, the truth is, Carlos Ghosn realized that he was probably going to spend the rest of his life within the Japanese legal system, either

awaiting trial or conviction. With onerous bail restrictions, he decided there was only one choice, it was time to leave. And he had the money and

the wherewithal to do it. It will be the court of public opinion as he remains at large that will decide whether he was right or should return.

And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for tonight, I'm Richard Quest in Beirut, whatever you're up to in the hours ahead, the bells are ringing, the day is

done. I hope it's profitable.

END