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Quest Means Business

Facebook Whistleblower Accuses Company of Stoking Hatred; President Biden's Infrastructure Plan Needed to Compete with China; KLM CEO says COVID Crisis was Unprecedented; Evergrande Default Stokes Real Estate Fears in China; Russian Film Crew Filming First Interstellar Movie on ISS; "QUEST'S WORLD OF WONDER" in Copenhagen. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired October 05, 2021 - 15:00   ET



RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR: There is an hour left to trade on Wall Street and the market is see-sawing to the extent that Monday's losses have

been erased if we show you the chart, look, up like a rocket. Now, one and a third percent game, 440 odd points and holding steady. So we need to

understand what's going on. Those are the markets and the main events of the day that we will tell you about in the next hour.

Facebook's whistleblower has told the U.S. Congress the company should declare moral bankruptcy.

Delta's chief executive tells me the U.S. desperately needs new infrastructure to keep up with China.

And talking of China, a big new problem with real estate. Now, a second company has missed a major payment.

Back from Boston, live in New York on Tuesday, October the 5th, I'm Richard Quest and I mean business.

Good evening. Throughout Tuesday, U.S. lawmakers have been hearing sensational whistleblower testimony from a former Facebook employee. She

says, it is time for the company to declare moral bankruptcy.

Frances Haugen has accused Facebook of creating a platform that has had a corrosive influence on the internet, and she says its algorithms promote

content that harms children and fans and fans ethnic violence.


FRANCES HAUGEN, FACEBOOK WHISTLEBLOWER: It is causing teenagers to be exposed to more anorexia content, it is pulling families apart. And in

places like Ethiopia, it is literally fanning ethnic violence.

I encourage reform of these platforms, not picking and choosing individual ideas, but instead making the platform's themselves safer, less twitchy,

less reactive, less viral, because that's how we scalably solve these problems.


QUEST: Now over the course of several hours, whilst giving a testimony, the former project manager described your company as she put it, hiding

behind walls and operating in the shadows without any accountability.


HAUGEN: The fact that Facebook has walled off the ability to see even basic things about how the platform performs, or in the case of their past

academic research, releasing inaccurate data, or not being clear about how they pulled that data is just part of a pattern of behavior of Facebook

hiding behind walls and operating in the shadows, and they have far too much power in our society to be allowed to continue to operate that way.


QUEST: Now, a potential Facebook breakup is always talked about. Bearing in mind Facebook has Instagram, WhatsApp, and Facebook itself. Haugen

warned senators that the company has grown so large, breaking Facebook up may not be enough.


HAUGEN: What I'm scared of is right now, Facebook is the internet for lots of the world. If you go to Africa, the internet is Facebook. If you split

Facebook and Instagram apart, it's likely that most advertising dollars will go to Instagram and Facebook will continue to be this Frankenstein

that is altering like that is endangering lives around the world, only now, there won't be money to fund it.

So I think oversight and finding collaborative solutions with Congress is going to be key because these systems are going to continue to exist and be

dangerous even if broken up.


QUEST: Our Oliver Darcy is with us now. A lot of what Frances Haugen said, of course, was very much repeated from the "60 Minutes" CBS interview at

the weekend and "The Wall Street Journal" articles. It takes on a different importance, though, doesn't get when it is just being questioned there.

And the reality is, she is very hard to ignore because she was on the inside.

OLIVER DARCY, CNN BUSINESS SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: Yes, she's a very compelling witness. She was from the inside. She has thousands of

documents, Facebook's own documents outlining some of the things that she is talking about. So she's just citing back their own research to them in

public, and she is an articulate witness.

You know, she was talking in plain English, someone you know, you don't need a specific understanding of Facebook to really understand what she is

saying. I do find one thing to be interesting though, Richard, is that both Facebook and her do agree on one thing, it's a pretty big significant

thing. It's that there needs to be government regulation. Congress needs to step in and in provide some oversight for Facebook.

Facebook is welcoming that and she is saying that it needs to happen.

QUEST: The idea of breaking up Facebook, Oliver, look at the share price of Facebook over the last three -- since year-to-date. It was down

yesterday. We're up two percent today, but the whole market is up so the rising tide has lifted all boats, but bearing in mind there -- and it is

off its back -- as you can see it's one and truly off its top there, the markets off its tops. But bearing in mind these allegations, arguably, one

might have expected more.


DARCY: Yes, maybe I mean, it seems that Facebook investors, and the company really doesn't think that anything I guess can stop them at this

point, that the monster is too big to break up and really too big to damage from a profit making standpoint. And you're certainly seeing that almost in

the way that executives at Facebook react to this.

Now, you're not seeing Mark Zuckerberg or Sheryl Sandberg come out with statements like they have in the past. They're just assuming I think that

this is going to blow over in a few weeks, whether that's true remains to be the case.

I do think what she proposed -- this whistleblower proposed was interesting, which was reforming Section 230 so that Facebook is

responsible for the algorithm that controls what people see on the platform. And if that causes harm, then they can be held liable. I think

that's an interesting policy proposal she floated today and it will be interesting to see whether lawmakers look into that.

QUEST: But Oliver, is it your gut feeling that they actually do anything? This is great television. The sound bites are strong, but it's not new.

We've heard -- admittedly, it's more authored and it's more authoritative. But it's not new what we've heard.

DARCY: I agree. It's certainly not new to see a Facebook executive either in front of Congress, but this was the most substantive discussion on Big

Tech, I think, Richard, that I've heard in some time, and maybe ever. I mean, I've watched a lot of these, and often they are derailed by

Republican lawmakers and some Democratic lawmakers who want to political grandstand.

There's been a lot of issue, for instance, from Republicans about bias against conservatives and censorship, and you really did not see that in

this hearing. You saw a really focused hearing, you saw a lot of good questions. It seemed like everyone was informed when they were coming to

this hearing, and I think that is a change.

And if I were Facebook, that's probably the one thing from this hearing that would worry me the most, is that lawmakers, both Republicans and

Democrats were really in unison, asking good questions and seem to be on the same page that Facebook needs to be regulated in some form, and that

the talking points from this company just don't hold up when you look at some of the documents that they have on the inside.

QUEST: Oliver, grateful that you watched the testimony in such detail. Thank you, sir.

Because Facebook is promoting itself as a benefit to society, and yet Haugen is comparing the company's responses so far to Big Tobacco.


HAUGEN: When tobacco companies claimed that filtered cigarettes were safer for consumers, scientists could independently invalidate these marketing

messages and confirmed that in fact, they pose a greater threat to human health.

The public cannot do the same with Facebook, we are given no other option than to take their marketing messages on blind faith.


QUEST: So Facebook likes to talk about its mission. It helps its product because it says it connects with friends. As we heard today, it may cause

body issues -- body image issues, too.

Facebook says, you can meet like-minded people, but the other side of that coin, radicalization is entirely possible.

And of course, you can get the latest news on your Facebook feed. The problem, of course, is that news could be a source of misinformation if you

haven't selected carefully and properly or the algorithm is basically reinforcing your own bias and bigotry.

Carole Cadwalladr is the co-founder of the Real Facebook Oversight Board, with me from London. Carol has been with us on this program, of course, on

several occasions. You're not surprised by any of this. I'm pretty certain about that. So, to the extent of what you've heard, how far do you think

this will be impetus for somebody to do something?

CAROLE CADWALLADR, CO-FOUNDER, REAL FACEBOOK OVERSIGHT BOARD: I mean, I do think that it is a bit of a pivotal moments. I think that she just -- I

mean, Frances Haugen, she's a sort of dream witness. She was articulate, she explained things so well, and she is coming at it with this incredible

credibility and authority from coming from inside the company.

And you know, I think what was really striking actually today was that focus on Instagram on children, because I do think this thing about the

harms to children is connecting to the public. And we are seeing this unity from both Republicans and Democrats on this and that it was one of the most

emotional moments when Senator Blumenthal talked about -- he read out an e- mail from somebody who talked about the impact upon his teenage daughter.

And so yes, I really -- I mean, you never know, and we've seen Facebook get off the hook so many times, haven't we? But it does feel like a game-

changer to me,


QUEST: But Carole, as somebody who has looked at this with great detail, is it your feeling that something will be done more likely by the U.S.

regulators? Or by European regulators?

CADWALLADR: I mean, I think there -- but I think we are at the point now where the legislators are incredibly well informed. If you compare the

questions today from what they were three years ago, there is a sea change there, I think.

But also, I mean, I am very interested in what the regulators are going to do, and in particular, the S.E.C. because the S.E.C., you know, it has real

powers. And we know that the whistleblower, she has filed eight complaints with, you know, backed up by documents to the S.E.C., and I think there's

real questions too, about, you know, what still the cover up from the Cambridge Analytica scandal, the settlement that the S.E.C. did, and

there's another lawsuit, which is looking to challenge the answers that Mark Zuckerberg gave at that time.

So there is a lot going on. And that this time, I think it really is the executives and it's the board members who are going to be on the hook.

QUEST: On that point. I really -- I'm going to quote from this morning's "New York Times." It's an article by Kevin Rose, columnist. He says, never

mind all that's going on what they've heard. He says the real problem is Facebook is in trouble. Youngsters and teenagers don't want to use it. It's

being marginalized to radicalize. And at best, the number of minutes used in the United States will fall by up to 40 percent in the next 10 years,

that surely is an even bigger problem for Facebook.

CADWALLADR: Well, maybe, but I think we saw yesterday, didn't we, with the outage? You know, it was like suddenly oxygen stopped working, didn't it? I

mean, we weren't able to contact our friends. I mean, the fact that WhatsApp going down along with Facebook and Instagram really demonstrated

how much we depend on these services.

And also, I think you have to look at the rest of the world, too, which is where Facebook is still very much growing and growing aggressively. So,

that's -- I mean, there is a degree of truth in that of certain services. But overall, it's still boom, boom, boom, I think.

QUEST: I do wonder, though, as we talk about all of this, the fact that WhatsApp went down yesterday, was a great inconvenience to many of us,

perhaps yourself as well. I know it's only those of us who write to people in different countries. Is it possible, do you think to keep the good and

lose the bad?

CADWALLADR: I mean, that's what Frances Haugen was saying. She was coming at it and sort of the saying, you know, we can heal Facebook. I mean, I

think that's a very -- there is so much that needs to be done. And it is -- I mean, where I agree with her is that she says there are things which are

fixable, and that is so true.

And you know, many of the things that she called out were that they can be fixed with just spending some more money, by putting safety ahead of

profit. You know, she talked about being on a team which was dealing with counterespionage, dealing with threats from China and from Iran. She said

there were six -- seven or six or seven people on it.

And she said, you know, it was outlandish, and that, you know, she said she is giving separate evidence about it being a national security issue.

So you know, there are so many multiple fronts which need urgently addressing here, but it is, you know, there is a lot that could be done,

and there is a lot which has to be done.

QUEST: Good to see you. Thank you. We'll talk more. I appreciate it. Thank you.

CADWALLADR: Thanks, Richard.

QUEST: Joe Biden is due to speak any moment when he tells us U.S. Congress must pass his infrastructure plans if the U.S. is to keep up with China. In

a moment, the Delta chief executive, Ed Bastian, he says Americans don't realize just how modern China has become.



QUEST: Joe Biden is to speak at this hour in Michigan. He is rallying support for his two massive economic packages that remain stalled on

Capitol Hill. You're well familiar with those. There's the infrastructure bill. And of course, there's the reform of U.S. Social Security and social

services, which of course, those that some of the Democratic Party want to tie together, others don't, and it is all about the amount of money


The President is at the International Union of Engineers, and he is expected to make the case that the U.S. must make large scale investments

to keep up with China. Negotiations with Democrats. Remember, this is intraparty disputes. Those party negotiations all continue -- live pictures

of the President, by the way, of course, as he is selling his wares.

The airline CEOs I spoke to at the annual general meeting of I.A.T.A. Now, they're chomping at the bit for the infrastructure bill to finally become

law. Billions of dollars are badly needed, so they say they'll repair the terminals, the runways, and completely reform the U.S. Air Traffic Control


I asked Delta's Ed Bastian if he was confident that Washington would eventually find the deal.


ED BASTIAN, CEO, DELTA AIR LINES: I think so. I think so. We were desperately needing it. We look at our state of our country's

infrastructure compared to most countries around the world, we are in woeful condition.

QUEST: Do you think Americans realize that? Do you think Americans realize that China is actually an exceptionally modern country with phenomenal


BASTIAN: I don't think most Americans do. You need to be out in the world to see the world to understand that. You look at the shipping crisis that

we're having with the supply chain and all the ships and, you know, part of that is technology, part of that is infrastructure. And you think about

China being at a point where we're not at and they're actually able to manage their supply chains a hell of a lot better than we are in this


QUEST: Why is that so?

BASTIAN: Well, I think part of it is the -- it's when you don't have to ask for permission, you can do an awful lot of good and take advantage of

opportunity. But I think our country has a -- we've got a lot of different views. You know, we're unfortunately a politically divided society in our

nation right now, and we need leadership to step forward.

QUEST: Right, now on that part, I just want to clarify because clearly you're not -- I don't believe you are advocating to move to a Chinese form

of --

BASTIAN: No, no.

QUEST: But what I'm trying to understand then, if you don't want that, but you've got this divided nature back here.


QUEST: What does allow a system like this to gain benefits that puts it back on the road? Leadership is what you say.


BASTIAN: It's leadership and it is one of the reasons why you see business leaders speaking out more than ever, whether it's on trying to get the

infrastructure bill, though many of us have weighed in vocally with our legislators, stuff that typically we wouldn't have done in past times. We

need to keep our country moving forward and we need to get these investments made.

There's a thousand reasons why sustainability also a very important reason.

QUEST: We met each other earlier in the spring down in Atlanta, that wonderful hangar and the museum, and we saw the old plane and all of that.

At that time, you were still jumping around on the question of mandates.


QUEST: And I think we all know where it was going to end up, but you weren't prepared to go there yet.


QUEST: You are now.

BASTIAN: Well, we're not there quite yet. We've -- I think a lot of companies are looking at the question of mandates and the best way to

implement it that's consistent with our culture.

Delta, we've done something a little different. We've added an insurance surcharge, so that if you're not vaccinated by November the first, your

insurance costs will go up to $200.00 a month, and when we announced that, that is having the same effect, candidly, as a mandate, because we've

picked up over 10 points of our employees getting vaccinated just in a handful of weeks. And so we're up to about 85 percent as a company, I think

we'll be well over 90 percent by the end of this month.

QUEST: When I heard the insurance surcharge, Ed, I thought, bloody hell, that's a clever move by Delta. I mean, how to do a mandate through the

backdoor, in a sense without having to take the criticism of doing a mandate.


QUEST: Which essentially is what you did.

BASTIAN: Yes, so a mandate in and of itself is a blunt instrument that you need to get a shot or you lose your job, and knowing that we have a lot of

employees that have been here for many years, some that have very deep seated feelings and concerns about the vaccine, I wanted to respect that,

but there is a cost to it.

If you feel that so strongly about the vaccine that it gives you that level, would you invest close to $2,500.00 a year in avoiding it? Well, not

many people are going to. So it was a different way to do it.

QUEST: It's a classic case of there is more than one way to skin a cat.

BASTIAN: And so, we had run out of incentives, so we decided to try a disincentive.

QUEST: And unruly passengers? I mean, what gives? These people who just lose it.

BASTIAN: You know, we're in a period with a lot of emotional duress. You know, people have been affected during the pandemic. We have new types of

people traveling on some of our airlines that aren't accustomed historically to air travel, and I think, you know, there is a lot of people

who just want to make political statements.

QUEST: If we talked earlier in the year about growth and international, you said international would be far -- would not be far behind, but it

would be far behind, but it would it will come later.


QUEST: It's coming now.

BASTIAN: It's coming now, it is choppy. Europe will come before Asia, right. And South America will probably be somewhere in between. A lot of it

is going to be driven by the vaccines, the effectiveness of getting on top of this variant and keeping the -- and manage it to a relatively low level.

QUEST: Are you ready for the return?

BASTIAN: We are. We are. We weren't quite ready this summer that we -- we all saw that this summer as the volumes came roaring back, which was great

to see. International, we are absolutely ready.


QUEST: Now, let's take that thought of international being ready. So Delta of course is part of SkyTeam. Another leading member of SkyTeam is KLM. The

chief executive of KLM says there is a huge amount of enthusiasm for U.S. travel in Europe, and the airline is already adding new routes.

Last week, KLM said it was adding services to Miami and Las Vegas, on top of new routes to Cancun and Caribbean. KLM might not have even been in this

position were it not for a government bailout last year.

Pieter Elbers the CEO told me, it is the passengers who will really decide its future.


PIETER ELBERS, CEO, KLM: What has happened is unprecedented, and I would like to say the industry survived because of the government support. It

will recover because of our customers getting back, and again, if we see the enthusiasm of customers getting back, people want to fly again and that

gives you a lot of confidence to the future.

QUEST: How quickly are you going to get back up fully running? I mean, you're about to see the U.S. open both ways.

ELBERS: Yes. Well we saw already in the summer when the U.S. opened or when the transatlantic opened for U.S. customers. We see Americans coming

back to Europe. Now, with the recent announcements, we see a lot of enthusiasm in the European markets to go back to the U.S.

So we are back at KLM, we are back almost with our network in terms of destinations. We are reintroducing a couple of destinations like Las Vegas

and Miami this winter and we see really an uptick of demand there.


QUEST: I noticed that New Zealand has now announced it wants passengers to be vaccinated.


QUEST: These are tricky waters for you.

ELBERS: Yes, I mean passengers being vaccinated for me, it's a completely different thing. We fly to 80 countries. In all the 80 countries, we follow

the rules of the country. So the country says, you have to be vaccinated, you're vaccinated. If the country are demanding crews to be vaccinated,

we'll make sure that we shall vaccinate our crews.

I think there comes a point where if a lot of countries are saying that, having not all crew vaccinated sort of limits your ability to operate, then

we'll have a whole different discussion. For now, we are encouraging our crews and step by step, we're getting to higher numbers.

QUEST: What's your biggest problem at the moment?

ELBERS: The instability of the travel advice. Our customers want to travel, but we still see an erratic pattern of governments changing rules

and regulations all the time. So I think the predictability and the consistency of rules and regulations is the biggest challenge.

QUEST: It's not going to happen.

ELBERS: Well, it's not going to happen, but step by step, we could see countries are looking to each other and are hopefully learning something

from the very erratic pattern we have so far.

QUEST: Of all the airlines, you fly the flag on the sustainable --


QUEST: Net zero 2050. It's necessary, but it's not sufficient,

ELBERS: Well, KLM has taken a leading role already years ago, and when in 2019, you and I were sitting together, and we had introduced our Fly

Responsibly, we got a lot of support. If I see the momentum now in the industry going on, and the change in the past two years, I feel very

confident that with these shared efforts and these shared sort of ambitions we're having, technology will help us.

Yes, there's a long way to go. The amount of stuff today is very limited. The amount of alternative fuels is still limited. But if you see how people

are now uniting to solve this issue, I feel much more confident on this topic than two years ago.

QUEST: Finally, I asked you once before when we were talking about what you learned about yourself during the crisis, now I can ask you face-to-

face. At the worst moments and in the decisions that you had to take during those weeks and months in February, March, April, May, June, July of last

year. In terms of you, what did you discover about your ability to handle a crisis?

ELBERS: That you always need to take care of your energy balance. You know, you have so much headwind all the time that you need to discover the

things which are giving you energy and the fact that we operated cargo only flight, the fact that we ship medical equipment, the fact that we were

welcomed in countries by Presidents saying KLM is a bringer of hope with medicines. That gives you so much energy to continue also all the tough


So, the energy balance has been the biggest learning for me.


QUEST: Pieter Elbers of KLM, and all this week on the program, you're going to be hearing from some of the world's biggest carriers and


We've already heard from United, KLM, and Delta.

Later, the chief executive of Lufthansa, Carsten Spohr; Emirates, Sir Tim; Airbus, and IAG. They will all be giving the perspectives on aviation in

the post pandemic world.

Real estate fears are flaring up in China. Now, a second developer says it can't pay its debts. Clare Sebastian will tell us about that in a moment.




QUEST: More trouble for China's real estate sector. Fantasia (ph), which is a luxury department developer, has missed its deadline to repay more

than $300 million to lenders. S&P and Moody's say the company's risking defaulting on other bonds.

And of course it's stirred up worries about bad debts in China's property market, a further sign that Evergrande's money troubles are spreading.

Clare Sebastian has more.

Who is this latest defaulter and is it likely to be systematic?

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, Richard, in a word, Fantasia is much, much smaller than Evergrande. Evergrande is really the giant in the

Chinese property sector. But it is significant, not because it's caused by Evergrande but because it shows the problems that afflict Evergrande are

afflicting other, smaller companies throughout the Chinese property sector.

There are many thousands of companies involved in this sector. And Fantasia, you know, it's a smaller luxury, sort of real estate company

based in the same city as Evergrande and, in some ways, is actually in a worse position than Evergrande because it's already defaulted. It missed a

principal payment which puts it in default.

There is no grace period, like Evergrande is currently in, having missed interest payments. So that is the situation it's currently in. That could

lead, as you noted, to default on its other bonds. And it's being downgraded by the ratings agencies. It's a serious predicament.

QUEST: So why are they defaulting?

What's gone wrong?

SEBASTIAN: This is a problem that is affecting the whole of the Chinese property sector. The most important part is last year Beijing brought in

new rules that, essentially forced the property companies that have been building up debt for many years, has forced them to deleverage, it

restricted the amount of debt they could hold.

So they had to use the cash on their balance sheets to pay down that debt. We're at the point now where they may not have enough debt to cover it. The

question with Evergrande is do they have enough assets to pay for their debts?

If they don't, this liquidity crisis for Evergrande becomes a solvency crisis. But in the case of Fantasia, right now, obviously, the ratings

agencies are saying they don't think there is enough cash to cover their debt.

QUEST: Clare Sebastian, thank you.

An astronomical number of movies is set to take place in space. Nothing in the cinematic universe has actually been shot there, that is until now.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the first umbilical now retracting, engine ignition, turbo pumps coming up to flight speed and liftoff. Liftoff of

Soyuz 19 --

QUEST (voice-over): Now this is important because it's a Russian actor and her director, have arrived at the International Space Station, literally,

to boldly go where no thespians have gone before. CNN's Julia Chatterley has more on the ground-breaking and gravity-defying production.


JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): It's the final frontier of filmmaking and a first for one lucky star, who will feature in the first

movie made in the stars. It seems like a role custom made for actor Tom Cruise, known for his gravity-defying stunts.


CHATTERLEY (voice-over): Like hanging off the side of a plane or scaling the world's tallest building.

Last year, NASA said it was planning to make a movie with Cruise on the International Space Station. But the winner of this space race is Moscow

over Hollywood. Russian actress Yulia Peresild lifts off Tuesday in a Soyuz spacecraft to travel to the International Space Station in what could be

one of the most unusual commutes ever to a movie set.

YULIA PERESILD, ACTOR (through translator): I'm not afraid of anything. I really just want us to make a good movie and I really want our health,

which as it turns out to be generally good, to not let us down.

CHATTERLEY (voice-over): The lead actress will be accompanied into space by her director. Both had to learn not only their screen parts but work

with professional cosmonauts for months, undergoing weightlessness training with a backup crew as well as centrifuge tests and parachute drills.

KLIM SHIPENKO, DIRECTOR (through translator): During this time, they really tortured us. They didn't beat us up, though, but made us memorize a

lot of unknown abbreviations and squeezed us completely.

CHATTERLEY (voice-over): The two will spend 12 days filming on the space station. Cosmonauts on the ISS will also appear in the movie, which is

currently titled, "The Challenge." And that is what the actress says she expects the experience to be as she and her colleague will have to play

multiple roles.

PERESILD (through translator): Since he will have to be a camera operator, director and a lighting engineer, I will have to be a makeup artist,

costume designer and an actress.

CHATTERLEY (voice-over): Fans will have to judge if the film becomes an international blockbuster but its out of this world location already makes

it a ground-breaking movie.


QUEST: Space exploration is one of the big theme weeks at this year's Expo 2020, in Dubai. It all feeds into how we can live more sustainably on this

planet and beyond. Countries around the world are sharing ideas. CNN's Eleni Giokos takes us inside Singapore's nature pavilion.



ELENI GIOKOS, CNNMONEY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the race to finish the Singapore pavilion was underway, smart urban innovation is being used

to bring the garden city vision to Expo and Dubai.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): You are seeing the boys up there. They are usually on the skyscraper of Dubai. There's a 45,000 of plants that are

being planted on the tree green coming down here.

GIOKOS (voice-over): It's a delicate job. Each plant is placed carefully in pots, in massive cone-like structures. Plants that can tolerate the

harsh Dubai sun are moved to the front, while the more fragile are placed in the shade. But technology ensures that each gets the exact amount of

water it requires.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): What you see down here is a tube that is inserted into the soil and it's going to water the soil. These are all

calculated very carefully for different plants to get different amount of water.

GIOKOS (voice-over): The technology doesn't end there. Robots are being used to inspect the plants' health and collect environmental data.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): How sustainable?

The top, it's a huge solar canopy and comprises of (sic) 517 solar panels. It provides shades for the pavilion. And down below, we also draw

groundwater and desalinate the groundwater for the use of the pavilion. So we aim to have a self-sufficient, contained close to zero energy pavilion

throughout a six-month period.

GIOKOS (voice-over): Through the use of smart design, a solar canopy and thousands of plants, the designers claim that the temperature will drop by

10 degrees inside, all to prove Singapore's view that, through sustainable techniques, we can coexist with nature.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): With smart urban innovations, I think that it's achievable, and regardless of the climate, whether it is in the

tropics or the desert condition.

GIOKOS (voice-over): Despite being delayed by a year because of the global pandemic, with the event finally underway for the next six months,

Singapore is ready to showcase their lush, innovative design to the world - - Eleni Giokos, CNN, Expo 2020, Dubai.


QUEST: And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for the moment. At the top of the hour, I'll have a closing market bell and a dash to the bell with you.

Coming up next, WORLD OF WONDER.





QUEST (voice-over): This is what a vacation looks like.


QUEST (voice-over): It's gorgeous. All the reasons why I love coming to visit. The simplicity, the consensus mentality, the reasonableness,

probably all the reasons why I wouldn't want to live here. Sometimes you just want to have a good argument, lose your temper, break the rules.

For those into rebellion, in Copenhagen, there's a refuge. (INAUDIBLE) is the place to be.

You are looking for me and I am looking for you.

TANJA ZABELL, CHRISTIANIA RESIDENT (voice-over): Everything is much more fun when you're on wheels. I will borrow you my pretty bike.

QUEST (voice-over): Oh, yes. But I'm suddenly going to be -- what are you doing?

Like its owner --

ZABELL (voice-over): Da, da, da.

QUEST (voice-over): And the commune where she lives, this bike has a spirit of its own.

Freetown Christiania began when a group of hippies took over a former military base in the early 1970s. Its utopian ambition was simple, create a

free town commune in the middle of the city. Fifty years on and it's still going. How long have you lived here?

QUEST (voice-over): How long have you lived in -- ?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Since '78. 43 years.

QUEST (voice-over): Wow, you must be one of the originals. You were rule breakers to start with.

ZABELL (voice-over): We still are.

QUEST (voice-over): It's often moaned, Christiania is not the revolution it once was. There is still rebellion in a reasonable and sensible way; for

instance, the rule on graffiti.


ZABELL: You ask yourself, can I do this better?

If the answer's no, you will not overpaint it.

QUEST (voice-over): Isn't that rather subjective?

Today's commune celebrates free thinking, not a free-for-all. Plenty of Christiania branding and that famous cannabis trade in Pusher's Alley,

where discretion meant I visited but didn't film. Tanja wants me to see today's Christiania to prove that people are still living a communal life.

Home, sweet home.

ZABELL: Exactly.

QUEST (voice-over): Her house is as wonderfully colorful as is she.



QUEST (voice-over): In this country of fairy tales, once again, I board the magic carpet and things take a deliciously odd turn.

What are you doing?

ZABELL (voice-over): I'm going out to see where are the swans.

QUEST (voice-over): Are you mad?

ZABELL (voice-over): In a world filled with, like, mainstream, it's really something to be yourself. And I know I'm a crazy swan lady.


QUEST (voice-over): But lovable.

This side rebels, this side tolerates, this side pushes, this side acknowledges. Totally Danish.

Identity and belonging, from a rebel searching for a cause, to a traditional Viking and, eventually, in this city, all routes lead to water.


QUEST (voice-over): Where do my legs go?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, can you have them like that?



Are you ready for a trip on the lake?

QUEST: Absolutely.

Why are we on a boat?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I love paddling. Well, I guess that's my Viking contribution.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Before I was a scientist, I was an adventurer.

QUEST: Eske Willerslev is doing more than that, sending ripples through Denmark with his DNA work. It's blowing up a thousand years of Viking


ESKE WILLERSLEV, DNA SCIENTIST: Of course, there is Scandinavian things that the Vikings, many of them. But there's also Vikings that have no

genetic ancestry coming from Scandinavia.

QUEST: Well, then, they're not Vikings.

WILLERSLEV: Yes, they are.

And why?

Because they have borrowed (ph) with Viking swords, sealed the whole equipment (ph).


QUEST (voice-over): So Viking's a way of life?

WILLERSLEV (voice-over): Exactly.

QUEST (voice-over): It seems Viking was a job description, marauding and raiding and the like. And it's not unique to Denmark or even Scandinavia.

Are Vikings blond, blue-eyed?

WILLERSLEV (voice-over): Nope. They were less blond and blue-eyed than Scandinavians are today.

QUEST (voice-over): You are destroying people's concept of the Viking.

WILLERSLEV (voice-over): Our whole identity of Scandinavians is based on the kind of the Viking myth.

But you know, as a researcher, what is your goal?

Right, your goal is to find out what actually happened rather than what do we believe happened or imagine happened.


QUEST (voice-over): The truth of the past, whether distant or more recent, is a big part of my understanding of Copenhagen today.





QUEST (voice-over): Now here's something particularly Danish. When you get to the traffic lights, if they're red, you actually stop and wait. In New

York, not a chance. They're through those lights before you can say Danish sandwich.


QUEST (voice-over): The Danes, they aren't afraid to be individual but only in a collective sort of way.

Deliciously friendly, it really is.

Copenhagen encounters abound. And I couldn't ask for better company today than a national treasure.

You're big. You're --



TERKELSEN: It's absolutely --

QUEST (voice-over): -- I knew you were going to take it like that. You know exactly what I mean.

TERKELSEN (voice-over): Well, I've been around for a long time. I'm 77. I'm the world's oldest television journalist, I think. And --

QUEST (voice-over): Ulla Terkelsen is what you call a venerable institution. She's got a great laugh and a larger-than-life reputation.

She's a long-time globe-trotting correspondent.

TERKELSEN: I switched countries because a sinking ship makes your surprise as your curiosity is coming at a new place, like when you travel.

QUEST: But how do you keep in touch with what's happening back here?

TERKELSEN: You don't forget your roots.

You don't forget North London, do you?


QUEST (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE) here.

I brought you here for a Danish to be a cliche. But you're saying it --

TERKELSEN (voice-over): It's not called a Danish because (INAUDIBLE) bread from Vienna, and in Vienna, it's called Kopenhagener.

QUEST (voice-over): So what's this one?

TERKELSEN (voice-over): These are called snails. This is the old-fashioned shop from my childhood.

QUEST (voice-over): Give me three slices. I'll have one for later.

My blood sugar is about to go through the roof. But I don't care. Today, I'm living Ulla's way of life, without apology.

You've been quite open about all the affairs you've had at work?

TERKELSEN (voice-over): Oh, yes. In my generation, the whole idea was that women should be flirtatious and sexually aggressive like the men.

QUEST (voice-over): Don't you worry that the Ulla, that the national treasure might become tarnished?

TERKELSEN (voice-over): I think the Danish people have a sense of humor.

QUEST (voice-over): Ulla has perfected the seasoned journalist's skill of analyzing and understanding a place in minutes. So I ask that she focuses

her powers on her own country.

Tell me about Denmark.

TERKELSEN (voice-over): I think it is a very beautiful country. I think it is also a very pragmatic, sensible country. When you are here, you are a

city of step off the world and step into a very pretty garden, very well kept, where everything is Swedenized (ph).

But outside, the garden gate, there's something else going on. And I want to go and look at that.

QUEST (voice-over): What's the thing you love most about this, about Copenhagen as well?

TERKELSEN (voice-over): Thinking about my family, my childhood, our summer holidays. I'm reminded of that when I walk around here. And I get quite


QUEST (voice-over): A connection to place and family through history.


QUEST (voice-over): Now to the word that best describes all of this. I think it's fairy tales and I don't just mean because of Hans Christian


Once upon a time there was this place called Copenhagen, where the people felt safe. There was trust and reliability. And there was more, there was

enchantment and wonder. There was a twist in the tale. You'll want to come to Copenhagen and experience this fairy tale for yourself. Visit Copenhagen

and live happily ever after.





QUEST: Hello, I'm Richard Quest. Together we're going to have a dash to the closing bell. We're just over two minutes away.

A bit of confidence has returned to Wall Street. The Dow went straight up and out like a gun. And it's recovered all of yesterday's losses. Investors

were encouraged by the ISM Services Index that showed growth last month.

Also the ADP private payroll report is out tomorrow morning. It's given back a bit of gains but, actually, it's still very strong and healthy. All

the major averages are up. Tech stock is turning around from yesterday, even as Facebook took center stage at the whistleblower hearing in

Washington. Facebook is actually up over 1 percent.

As President Biden rallies for support for his two massive economic packages that remain stalled on Capitol Hill, the CEO for Delta says urgent

repairs are desperately needed in the U.S.

He was speaking to the IATA general meeting in Boston. Ed Bastian says he's confident Washington will find a deal.


ED BASTIAN, CEO, DELTA AIR LINES: I think so. I think so. We were desperately needing it. And we look at the state of our country's

infrastructure compared to most countries around the world, we're in woeful condition.

QUEST: Do you think Americans realize that?

Do you think Americans realize that China is actually an exceptionally modern country with phenomenal infrastructure?

BASTIAN: No, I don't think most Americans do. You need to be out in the world, to see the world, to understand that. Look at the shipping crisis

that we're having with the supply chain and all the ships.

You know, part of that is technology; part of that is infrastructure. And you think about with China being at a point where we're not at and they're

actually able to manage their supply chains a hell of a lot better than we are in this country.


QUEST: And the Dow, as we come to the end of the trading day, a wall of green. Goldman Sachs and Microsoft are leading at the top. Merck is in the

red after being one of the few winners earlier this week. It's merely giving back some of what it's already gained.

Visa and IBM also down. You're up to date. That is the dash to the closing bell. I'm Richard Quest. Whatever you're up to the hours ahead, I hope it

is profitable. The closing bell is ringing on Wall Street and President Biden is speaking in Lansing, Michigan, on infrastructure, which is part of

"THE LEAD," which comes up now.