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Quest Means Business

Three Men Convicted For Murder Of Ahmaud Arbery; At Least 31 Dead As Boat Capsizes In English Channel; Olaf Scholz To Lead Coalition Government As German Chancellor; Dimon Says He Regrets Joke About Chinese Communist Party; Human Rights Watch Accuses IOC Of Sports-Washing

Aired November 24, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:18]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Richard Quest and two breaking stories, news that we are following, and we must bring to you

tonight.

In the English Channel, more than 30 people have died after their migrant boat capsized.

And in the U.S. State of Georgia, three men have been found guilty in the murder of Ahmaud Arbery, the black man who was shot to death whilst out

jogging last year.

Updates on both those stories across the hour and the developments as they happen. We will of course, begin with the events in Europe.

A horrifying development took place in the English Channel. Dozens of migrants have been killed when their boat capsized off the coast of France.

At least 31 people are confirmed dead. Amongst them, five women and the little girl, and a person is still missing. Their boat came into

difficulties off the coast of Calais.

The French Prime Minister has called it a tragedy. You'll be aware, of course, there's been a rash of migrants trying to leave France for the

United Kingdom by boat. More than 200 people were rescued from the Channel last week.

Boris Johnson, the British Prime Minister, has called an emergency Cabinet meeting to discuss the issue and said it was an appalling event that had

unfolded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I'm shocked and appalled and deeply saddened by the loss of life at sea in the Channel. I think that the

details are still coming in. But more than 20 people have lost their lives as you know.

And my thoughts and sympathies are, first of all with the victims and their families, and it is an appalling thing that they have suffered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Our international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson is in London, Cyril Vanier is in Paris. I should start with you, Cyril.

The latest details before we analyze the how's and the why's and who is to blame. Tell me, what's the latest actual details of what we know?

CYRIL VANIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you mentioned, Richard, that 31 people have been killed, that is the headline. Two people were rescued.

Those people however, in severe hypothermia. These waters are freezing cold this time of year. So, those people, we don't know if they will make it.

They're currently in hospital, Richard.

The Interior Minister saying that they are, as we speak, fighting for their lives. One person is still missing, and the rescue operations according to

the Interior Minister, still ongoing, however, he didn't give much hope that somebody could be found, saying explicitly that he didn't think anyone

else would be recovered from the sea.

So a little bit of a contradiction there with the fact that the rescue operations are ongoing, but that was the picture painted by the Interior

Minister.

Something else that's important, Richard, he said that four smugglers had been arrested today who were potentially tied to today's tragedy, meaning

four smugglers who potentially are those people who are organizing this human trafficking and collecting the money, thousands of euros per person

to cross from France to the U.K. They will be facing justice.

One more thing, Richard, just to give you a sense, really quickly, of how many people are attempting the crossing every day, more than 600 people who

attempted the crossing today were intercepted by French law enforcement before they could do so, Richard. That's just today alone.

QUEST: Cyril, right. I need you to stay with me. I'm going to go to Nic Robertson as we start to parse the, if you, like the why's and the

wherefores, the U.K. and France have been at loggerheads over this with the U.K. providing money for services. But they are saying, the French aren't

doing it.

Where does this go now? I mean, these -- the events of tonight take it into a different league.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: They do. Where does it go for now in the immediate term? Well, those 600 people that Cyril

mentioned picked up by the French today, what is their immediate fate? That will be a question being asked in the U.K. How would the French authorities

handle them? Will these migrants be back out on a beach tomorrow trying to get back into the U.K. again?

There is a huge amount of political pressure in the U.K. on this particular government of Boris Johnson to solve what is seen as a migrant crisis.

Three times the number of migrants are trying to cross the U.K. this year to last year. That's more than 25,000 just two weeks ago, a thousand

crossed in one day. There has been a real surge in recent weeks.

[15:05:10]

Just a few days ago, the Prime Minister appointed a Cabinet, one of his Cabinet Ministers to oversee getting all the different departments of

Whitehall together to figure out how to solve this migrant crisis issue.

Part of it seems from the Prime Minister's words today that he has offered help to the French, British police or others to help the French on the

beaches and the launching points, implying that it hasn't been accepted in the past.

QUEST: Nic, before we go back to Cyril, can you just explain to us why do they want to go to Britain, which first of all, is no longer Brexit --

since Brexit, no longer part of the E.U., stay in France? Right? There may be -- I mean, they are illegal in one, they're illegal in the other. So why

do they want to try and make the journey, this death defying or not -- or death inducing journey, as we saw today.

ROBERTSON: There are a number of reasons. One of them is that they feel that they will have a better life in the U.K. Now, that could be because

they've got family members in the U.K., because they are under the impression that there is a better social support network in the U.K.

It may be that many of these migrants come from countries where the first sort of second language, if you will, that they might have learned would be

English, and they would feel therefore, they can perhaps better make that fresh start in the U.K.

If we look at the figures from the UNHCR, a hundred thousand migrants came into Europe so far this year. We know that 25,000 of them more than came to

the U.K., so a quarter of all migrants arriving -- a quarter of all migrants coming to Europe, it appears on those figures are coming to the

U.K. It's that better life and they believe, it appears they can get a better one in the U.K. than elsewhere.

QUEST: Cyril, back to you in France, in Paris tonight. Does the French government have political pressure on them in the same way that Nic is

suggesting they have in the U.K., bearing in mind, if the migrants are going up to Calais and Dieppe and the likes, and going across to Britain?

Well, it's off the French books.

VANIER: Yes, that's a fair statement, Richard. I think the French government here has political pressure from both sides. On the one hand,

there is a strong demand here in France for cracking down on illegal immigration, and if you look at the poll numbers for presidential

candidates, and you aggregate, those who are advocating a very hard stance on migration in general, those who hail from the far right, then you see

that some 40 percent of the French population are in favor of this hard stance on migration in general and illegal immigration in particular.

So that is one of the political pressures on Emmanuel Macron and his government is to be tough, and there is a reason that Emmanuel Macron shows

the Interior Minister that he did, Gerald Darmanin because he is seen as a tough cop, and we heard that during his speech. He blamed the smugglers and

he pointed the finger mostly at the smugglers, also a little bit at France's neighbors.

Now, on the other hand, France also has a tradition of -- or whatever is left of that tradition of generosity towards migrants. So, there is some

pressure, as well for Emmanuel Macron to show humanity in this crisis and in this moment.

QUEST: Cyril and Nic Robertson, both of you, please, the moment you have more from sources and officials, come back to us. We need to report this in

more detail.

It is only two days though since France and the U.K. began a new arrangement on handling migrants headed for English shores. The French

government is sending equipment and vehicles worth more than $12 million to the area around Dunkirk to keep it secure. It was part of the deal that was

made with the British.

With me now is Tauhid Pasha, the U.K. head of the UN's International Organization for Migration, the IOM. So words -- there are no words that

can express the sorrow of tonight's appalling-ness in the Channel. But what do you need to prevent a repetition?

TAUHID PASHA, BRITISH OFFICE HEAD, INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR MIGRATION: Thirty one people lost their lives today, and until recently,

the figures for this year were 15 and that puts it into context, 75 people lost their lives last week, trying to cross from Libya into the

Mediterranean. Those lives also lost, one and a half thousand this year, one and a half thousand last year. Since 2014, about 14,000 people have

lost their lives.

We can count in each death through our Missing Migrants Project in our office in Berlin and all we're doing is just counting the numbers. We need

to be working on the solutions, as you say, Richard, and just one fact comes to mind, and that is that the disproportionate ramping up of barriers

and restrictions leads people into these alternative routes. It drives them straight into the hands of smugglers and traffickers.

[15:10:25]

QUEST: But there are two types of -- you know, there are two types here. There are those who are genuinely -- I can hear the critics saying, there

are those who are genuinely fleeing repression, and those who are going for, quote, "economic migration."

Now, you know, I agree that this stats is dancing on a head of a pin tonight, when you're looking at people fishing bodies out of waters,

however, how do you stop them making these journeys in the first place?

PASHA: We need to give people access to safe and legal pathways. We need more pathways.

If you put the figures into context, the U.K. gave humanitarian protection to about 8,000 people this year so far.

Last year, the figures were about 16,000, including resettlement. That's a drop in the ocean. You have 22 million refugees worldwide at the moment.

The vast majority are staying in neighboring countries. As soon as they get out, they are going there, and very few make it across.

We need those safe pathways. We need access to protection regimes as well, and that is vitally important.

I mean, Richard, going back to your point, who is crossing? Who is making these journeys? If you look at the nationalities -- Iraq, Sudan, Eritrea,

recently Afghanistan -- these figures clearly show that the vast majority are fleeing conflict, but also when people are moving. Yes, they are moving

for different reasons --

QUEST: But sir, you know, I'm going to be slightly harsh with you in the sense that people in country in the U.K., in the Netherlands, in France,

they say, hang on, we don't want -- I'm not saying anybody, but we don't want this unbridled migration from these countries, because we can't cope

with it in ourselves.

PASHA: We have an international duty. When it comes to 22 million refugees worldwide, it is a pin drop, it is a drop in the ocean, sorry, that, you

know, Western countries are asking to take on. We need to be upping the resettlement regime. But of course, Richard, there are concerns about

migratory pressures.

So we balance that against, okay, let's look at the other aspects of the U.K. economy as well. There are alternative and creative ways of creating

protection regimes. So for example, the U.K., credit to them, they are bringing in displaced people who are what we call, who have talent,

qualified nurses who are displaced Syrian and Palestinian nurses.

So, you know, we can, at the same time, we can also ensure that we can really look at the pathways that can be created in a creative manner, and

give people the humanitarian protection that's necessary.

QUEST: Sir, do you think that today's awful news will act as a brake on others who are thinking -- it will give others pause for that momentary

thought before launching themselves on what --

I mean, people think of the English Channel as being this little bit of water between Britain and France, 32 miles across without recognizing it is

some of the most treacherous waters in the world. Do you think tonight might help others decide not to do this?

PASHA: People are going to be continuing to flee persecution. People are dying, as I said in there, globally, worldwide. The figures are in excess

of a thousand. People are still going to continue to cross.

Yes, people are going to pause for thought, and the action that is being taken against smugglers and traffickers is absolutely vitally important.

But at the same time, people are going to continue to flee, and that's the fact.

And also, Richard, just to put this into context as well. We actually have the lowest levels of asylum seekers in the U.K. since 2012. There was a

huge peak at that stage.

If we look at it in that context, we can up the safe and legal pathways, we can up our resettlement regimes. We can give people more protection, and

hopefully, that will have an impact. We need a comprehensive, robust approach to this. It's not just about putting the barriers up.

QUEST: We are grateful you joined us tonight. Thank you, sir.

Now, the other major story that we are following for you, an outpouring of emotion in the U.S. State of Georgia. A jury has given a verdict of guilty

in the murder trial that's got the nation's attention, in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:17:45]

QUEST: More breaking news. This time, three white men accused of murdering a black man in the U.S. State of Georgia last year were found guilty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE TIMOTHY WALMSLEY, CHATHAM COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT: On malice murder, we, the jury find the defendant, Travis McMichael guilty.

We are going to ask whoever just made an outburst be removed from the court, please.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: All three defendants are found guilty on multiple murder accounts and a variety of other charges. They had claimed self-defense in the

shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery who was unarmed and jogging through a neighborhood when he was confronted. The jury did not agree with that.

Arbery's mother spoke shortly after the verdict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WANDA COOPER-JONES, MOTHER OF AHMAUD ARBERY: I just want to tell everybody, thank you, thank you. For those who marched, those who prayed,

and most of all, the ones who prayed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Lord.

COOPER-JONES: Thank you, guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Lord.

COOPER-JONES: Thank you. Now, Quez, which I -- well, you know him as Ahmaud, I know him as Quez, he will now rest in peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Our Martin Savidge is in Brunswick, in Georgia. What's the significance of tonight's decision?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's huge, Richard. I mean, this case was racially charged from the very beginning. As you pointed out, you

have three white men that are accused of a really a horrific crime of which they were chasing a black man, simply because according to the prosecution,

he was running through their neighborhood.

Adding to this inflammatory talk is the video. It was all captured on cell phone video. One of the defendants in this case actually recorded the

events as they happened. Many believe, if that person hadn't done that, we never would have made it to trial.'

But you witnessed firsthand, yourself, and many have watched it many, many times, the death of Ahmaud Arbery, and that's why having seen it, many felt

that the only possible verdict could be guilty in this case, but it is Georgia. It has a history of a state that has a questionable past when it

comes to justice regarding race.

And yet, there it was, the verdict was guilty. The gasp and then the celebration that came outside of the courthouse here was unanimous. The

motions once people heard them passed through this crowd. It electrified and there was celebration.

So it's a huge verdict, but there are still federal charges to come -- Richard.

QUEST: Martin, you've covered these cases many folds, so, you're well positioned to analyze. What's the difference in this guilty -- besides the

actual verdict between this guilty verdict and the Rittenhouse not guilty verdict when self-defense was used, in both cases, one where the jury

agreed, and we know that the public widely criticized. Here of course, they did not agree.

[15:20:42]

SAVIDGE: Well, the difference, of course, you have to point out is race. In the Rittenhouse case, it was white victims that were killed. It was a

white man that did the killing. The self-defense down here was notable and it was a concern, but it was the attempt by these three men to make a civil

arrest. In other words, to act as police officers. That was visceral to many.

Who are these white men to say that they were going out to protect their community by chasing a black man, cornering a black man, and killing a

black man? So that's all the difference in this case? Yes, it boils down to one aspect of self-defense, but citizen's arrest was the other aspect.

And the difference is also where it happened. This is the South, the histories are very different. This jury did not buy self-defense because

they said you cannot claim self-defense when you are the antagonizer here and they definitely, in that video, saw these men as being the pursuers, as

being the ones who initiated the horrible crime; hence, guilty.

QUEST: Martin, thank you, sir. Thank you, Martin Savidge.

Germany's next Chancellor has promised to lead a daring new government after finally agreeing to form a coalition. He is the current Finance

Minister, Olaf Scholz, and he will replace Angela Merkel. He says he will be bold on climate and industry.

His coalition is an unusual mix. Scholz's own party is left-leaning. They are teaming up with the greens and the pro-business, FTP. Scholz said the

so-called Traffic Light Coalition would break the mold.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OLAF SCHOLZ, INCOMING GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): Today, we cannot imagine a country without the traffic light as a symbol of providing

clear structure for providing a clear orientation, and for making it possible for people to move forwards quickly and safely.

My aspiration as Chancellor is to make sure that this traffic light coalition can play a similarly groundbreaking role in Germany.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Anna Stewart is in London, so they've got their traffic lights. They can agree on large parts, but it is whether they can agree

sufficiently.

ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: Exactly. And it's been two months of negotiations, they are obviously not natural bedfellows. Today, what we

got, as you say, was the things they agree on, the big policy ideas, particularly relating to climate, they're going to phase out coal by 2030.

Big victory there for the Green Party.

But how are they going to finance some of these policies, because that's really, Richard, where they disagree, particularly the FTP. They don't want

to see taxes rising, and they want to see a re-imposition of the so-called debt break to limit government spending, and all of this is going to cost

money.

So, it's good news today. This is a great breakthrough. But you're right, there are lots of things they don't agree on, and I think we'll see that

coming out possibly in the weeks to come.

QUEST: On the question of Germany's future. Obviously, whoever takes over isn't Angela Merkel, but with 16 years behind her, how long and how far do

you think Scholz has to go before he is perceived, not only the leader or the Chancellor of Germany, but also takes a place within Europe?

STEWART: It's going to be a really interesting one. Sixteen years, as you say, Angela Merkel is really a stable hand of E.U. diplomacy, not just the

leader of Germany, but really a leader for Europe as well.

Now, what he has on his side is Olaf Scholz, of course, has been Finance Minister since 2018. He is a familiar face, both in German politics, in

fact, he, of course, has been in German politics for decades now, but also on the E.U. stage. So that is good.

In terms of his style, he is pragmatic, he is plain spoken. So, he does share some similarities, but developing that gravitas, well, we're not

really going to see it until he starts to negotiate thorny issues with the E.U.

For instance, the migrant crisis on the Poland-Belarus border, tensions with Russia, the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. There is a lot to be dealt with

immediately and of course, COVID.

QUEST: Anna Stewart, thank you.

The Greek Prime Minister says that every person you have over 60 should need a booster shot to travel around the E.U. Kyriakos Mitsotakis has made

the proposal in a letter to the Commission President. He wants it to be a condition of E.U. travel certificate.

[15:25:11]

It follows the head of the European C.D.C. recommending all adults should now get booster shots. Barbie Nadeau is in Rome for us tonight. Is this

idea going anywhere?

BARBIE NADEAU, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, before that anyone can get booster shots, I think they need to focus on getting people their first

vaccinations, and that's really a problem driving the pandemic and the numbers here across Europe.

There are incredibly high numbers of new cases in every country, and incredibly low numbers of full vaccinations across the 27-country European

Union.

QUEST: Then what happens then? I mean, because it's the country -- I mean, first of all, you've got Austria, which has a medium level of vaccination,

not huge in the 60s. But then you've got the Bulgaria's of this world, which is down in the high 20s and 30s. And yet, there is an inequality of

supply of vaccine. I mean, it's not as if Europe is short of it, or at least it wasn't until boosters came along.

NADEAU: That's right. But it's not really about that. It's not really about the availability of the vaccine, it is about people who don't want

the government to tell them what they need to do. We have here in Italy, a very strong no vax movement. We've got high level of vaccination. We

require Green Passes here to get into a restaurant or go to a theater or even go to work.

But a lot of people don't like that, and they don't want to get a booster. And you see that echoed across Europe, especially in these places where the

government is coming down really hard.

Germany is coming down hard try to stop their cases mitigate the spread. Austria -- Italy has -- we've always had a mask mandate in this country

indoors since the beginning of the pandemic. All of those sorts of things.

You know, if every country worked together, or you know, and there were borders that were closed, it might be different, but people can move around

freely and the regulations are different in every single country.

So it's really difficult to try to treat this as a European-wide mandate as the Greek Prime Minister wants to do. The countries themselves don't really

agree with what they should do. They haven't quite figured out how to handle the pandemic and keep people happy by any means -- Richard.

QUEST: Barbie, good to see you in Rome tonight. Thank you.

We return to our top story tonight in just a moment, more than 30 migrants have drowned off the French coast in the English Channel. We'll bring you

the latest numbers and what has happened and what's likely to happen next.

This is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:31:37]

QUEST: At least 31 migrants are dead after their boat capsized in the English Channel. It happened off the coast of Calais. Migrant crossings and

the channel have soared since last year.

The French President, Emmanuel Macron said he wouldn't let the channel become a cemetery.

Clare Moseley is the founder of Care4Calais joins me now. So this is a -- this is an extraordinarily sad situation tonight, with enough blame to go

round with everybody, but it is how we prevent repeats in the future.

CLARE MOSELEY, FOUNDER, CARE4CALAIS: Yes, from our point of view, yes, it's devastating. These are all people who have suffered terrible journeys.

They are refugees fleeing war, and for them to get as close to the U.K. into safety and to drown here is a dreadful tragedy.

And from our point of view, we believe that these deaths are preventable, because the issue is that the people want to claim asylum in the U.K., but

in order to claim asylum, you have to be physically present in the U.K., and there is no way for them to get there. That's why they are taking these

dangerous journeys on little boats or sometimes on lorries. But believe me, they don't want to.

So if there was a way that they could claim asylum in the U.K. without risking their lives, then they would do it.

QUEST: Do we know the reasons why these people are trying to get to the U.K. and say for example, not staying in the E.U., not staying on the

French side. What is it about wanting to make that journey?

I mean, once you're illegally in the E.U., so to speak? Why not go to another E.U. country? Why are they attempting to cross the channel?

MOSELEY: Well, the vast majority of them do stay in Europe, it's only around about three percent of refugees that come to Europe to try and get

to the U.K., so for example, in France, three or four times as many people stay in France as try and get to the U.K. every single year.

The reasons that we hear from people who do try and get to the U.K., the number one reason is if they've got family there, because if you're

thousands of miles from home and you've got a family member, then it stands to reason that you would want to join them.

Other reasons are things like people who speak English, if that's the only language that they speak, then they've got a better chance of integrating

in a country where they speak the language. And others have community-type ties because for example, going back to colonial days, some people know a

lot about the U.K., and some countries, they teach them English history, and that they feel like the U.K. is a natural home for them.

QUEST: And, I mean, what has happened today is so awful that I sort of reflect back to the picture of the little boy on the beach, that we saw in

the last migrant crisis, if you will. But we seem to have learned nothing. I mean, in that case, it was a single boy in a t-shirt and red shorts, if I

remember, who was laying on the beach. Today, we're fishing 30 people out of the water.

MOSELEY: You will get no argument from me there. As I say, we feel that these deaths are preventable and that they absolutely should not be

happening. It feels to us like people are concentrating on the wrong issues. There's a lot of worry about people crossing the Channel. But you

know, really, the U.K. takes less refugees than many other countries in Europe.

So you know, there's no reason why we shouldn't take a few of those ones who do have ties to our country. And sometimes it feels, yes, like people

are concentrating on the wrong things. This is a terrible tragedy and it could be prevented.

The strategies that we hear from our government aren't doing anything to change the situation, and we hear the same things about securitization and

deterrence, but they don't do anything to stop people coming. We believe that there is a better way and it's time that we tried it because this

situation has existed for years, at least 10 years, and nothing has changed. It's time for something new.

QUEST: So as between Britain and France, I mean, they're already, if like, at loggerheads over fishing vessels and the like. We know that the British

are resentful of the way the French have not put resources and the French believe that the British haven't spent enough money, this, that and the

other, do you see any hope? Do you see that something like this might actually get them to cooperate?

[15:35:14]

MOSELEY: It would be fantastic if it did. There are some French politicians who are not averse to the idea that we have the idea of people

being able to claim asylum safely. So I mean, it is possible. As we say, France takes a lot more refugees than the U.K. every single year. So I

think that they would be very open to that type of argument because this isn't a problem that they want to see either. They don't like having this

this problem at their border.

I think it's possible. I think we need to try it. The issue is it's never been tried.

Today, the British Prime Minister was saying he wanted to leave no stone unturned or this is a stone that hasn't been turned over yet.

QUEST: Clare, glad to have you on, talking to us this evening, even if it is on such tragic circumstances. I'm grateful to your time.

This is CNN. Tonight, as we continue, a mea culpa from the CEO of JPMorgan Chase. Jamie Dimon is walking back the comments he made about -- some of

them at least -- he made about China. That story in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: JPMorgan's chief executive is walking back some of the comments he made about his company outliving the ruling Chinese Communist Party. In

fact, Jamie Dimon tells an audience in Boston on Tuesday about a story he told during a recent trip to Hong Kong.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMIE DIMON, CEO, JPMORGAN CHASE: I made a joke today that I was just in Hong Kong that I made a joke that the Communist Party celebrate its 100th

year, so is JPMorgan. And I'll make you a bet, we'll last longer.

I can't say that in China. They probably are listening anyway.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: And apparently, you can't say it anywhere. Today, he said: "I regret and should not have made that comment. I was trying to emphasize the

strength and longevity of our company."

Robert Lawrence Kuhn is the author of "How China's Leaders Think" and an adviser to corporations on all things China, he joins me. What was he

afraid of? What did Jamie Dimon, who is CEO of one of the most powerful banks in the world -- what was he afraid of?

[15:40:01]

LAWRENCE KUHN, AUTHOR, "HOW CHINA'S LEADERS THINK": He was afraid of the reaction in China and he's seen precedent in the past.

This sounds like a trivial matter and one we can all smile at, but it really is deeply probative of at least three points.

One, a common assumption that the Chinese people do not like the Communist Party-led government, which is not true. The large majority support the

party, granted, they recognize the problems. But they've seen a 50-fold increase of GDP per capita, 800 plus million people brought out of poverty,

more high speed rail than the rest of the world put together, and China respected. So they're very pleased with the government, even though there

are problems.

Secondly, China does need to relax in response to every perceived or even real criticisms. It only makes things worse. CHINA needs to do that. The

third point, though, is how individual corporations work in China.

There are many examples, and there are constraints. China will be the biggest market in the world. To some companies, it is extremely important

that other companies last, but there are constraints, and they need to be judged on an individual basis.

QUEST: Okay. But the -- I think of all those airlines that then groveled after they put Taiwan on a map or something like that.

KUHN: Yes, the wrong color.

QUEST: Right, right. And I sort of then think of a network like ours where we will be censored, and our signal is taken down, arguably, possibly even

as where you and I are discussing this. There's a crudeness that I won't say on air, you can -- you know, but where's the backbone or other parts of

the anatomy from some of these companies?

KUHN: It is a judgment call for each company. You can't argue with the individual decisions. They need to make decisions in their own best

interest. China will become the world's largest market, in many cases, it's critical for the companies.

Obviously, JPMorgan, they're determining it is critical for them. For Apple Computer, they're doing what -- $60 billion a year annualized, more than 15

percent of their global revenues. They have to make certain compromises.

Other companies, Google, they decided that they wouldn't be able to tolerate the constraints with no censorship -- but the --

QUEST: But, sir, as --

KUHN: We tolerate it for a while, and not anymore.

QUEST: Sorry, forgive me, the satellite delay is rather bad. As we discussed this, though, I want to focus on the hypocrisy, the seeming

hypocrisy of companies that will happily take a stance where, you know, Texas abortion law, or gender bathrooms, where they can do it in the safety

of a democratic environment, and then become pusillanimous when faced with China, which yes may have economic consequences against the company.

KUHN: You're absolutely correct. That is the case. That is one of the tradeoffs that we have in a democratic society.

Look at the difference between the NBA and the Women's Tennis Association, a very vast difference. Money was on the line in both cases, and they made

different decisions under kind of similar kinds of circumstances.

It's a hard call for these companies, they have a responsibility to their shareholders to do the best they can. They're not in the political

business. They try to negotiate the world as they best see it. But there are constraints for working in China. China has said that if you're going

to do business and make money in our country, you can't insult us. That's their view. Other companies have to deal with that.

QUEST: Now, if you were advising, the Quest Cooperation, QMB Incorporated, what would you tell us that we needed -- so we're in the sticky position

like the Jamie Dimon or whatever, all the time. So, we're in a sticky position. What factors do I need to take into account before I decide

whether I'm going to grovel or go forward?

KUHN: Look, that's a great question. My first question to you, can you afford my rate? No, that's just a joke. I would do it pro bono for you,

Richard, anytime, pro bono.

Look, I think one question is, how important is this to our future business? That's a mercantilistic decision, but it is a decision that you

have to do. Second is, what is our industry and what will be the constraints that we will have to undergo? With electronic companies and

internet business, there is very significant issues with data and censorship.

Apple is not a network, so it doesn't have to sensor, but there are some apps on Apple that are not appropriate. So, you have to be able to discern

the economic impact and in my industry, what will be the constraint.

If it's just speaking out on generic issues whether it's South China Sea or Taiwan or Xinjiang or anything else, companies can hide behind a view that

says, you know, we're not involved in politics. We don't get involved in that.

[15:45:15]

The problem is, as you will point out that some of those same companies will get involved in politics within the United States because of the

safety of the democracy. That is hypocritical, and you're right for calling them out.

QUEST: Robert, that wonderful American phrase translates beautifully both across the Pacific and across the Atlantic, "The check is in the mail."

Thank you, sir.

The Human Rights Watch is now amongst those criticizing the International Olympic Committee. It says the organization is not putting enough pressure

on Beijing to address Peng Shuai sexual assault accusations against a former Chinese official.

Beijing has repeatedly said the tennis star situation is not a diplomatic issue. CNN's Will Ripley now explains to us the Chinese government has some

serious power over sporting authorities around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILL RIPLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Zhang Gaoli, China's 75-year-old former Vice Premier, the one-time face of the Beijing

2022 Olympics, and the man who stands accused of sexual assault by one of China's premier tennis stars, Peng Shuai.

Her disappearance in the wake of the allegations on November 2nd, and mysterious reappearance over the weekend, fueling a firestorm that

threatens to dismantle China's worldwide sport aspirations, or does it?

While the Women's Tennis Association's threat to pull a 10-year multi- tournament contract could cost China, contracts with Major League Baseball, the NBA, Formula One, and others put China on course with its goal to make

sports a $780 billion industry by 2025.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This could be the biggest sport economy in the world.

RIPLEY (voice over): Sports is already big business in China, home to almost one and a half billion potential fans. According to analytics

company, Global Data, Chinese firms' sponsorship agreements with the International Olympic Committee and football Federation's FIFA and UEFA

alone are worth more than $2.2 billion and growing.

Athlete sponsorships and sports manufacturing accounts for lucrative deals for companies like Nike. In 2018, Nike made some $6.2 billion in China,

that number rose 21 percent from the previous year. Nike saw just a seven percent increase in revenue in North America over that same period.

So far, Peng Shuai sponsors have stayed silent in the wake of the allegations.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What a lot of organizations are trying to do at the moment is to navigate the middle way.

RIPLEY (voice over): The W.T.A. has a lot to lose by taking a stand. Reportedly, one-third of their revenue comes from China. For the NBA, the

outcome was remarkably different.

Basketball is China's most popular sport, but after a quickly deleted October 2019 tweet by Houston Rockets General Manager Daryl Morey in

support of the Hong Kong democracy protests, the backlash from China was swift. The threat of sponsorship loss, broadcast denial, and severing of

ties with the NBA proved a bridge too far for an organization that at that time made 10 percent of its revenue in the Chinese market.

The NBA initially distanced itself from Morey and moved to do damage control, hoping to salvage its relationship; and the IOC, looking at a

multibillion dollar revenue stream from China's hosting of the Winter Olympics, just a few months away. That relationship with China like it was

in 2015, when Zhang helped negotiate Beijing hosting the 2022 Winter Games appears as strong as ever.

Will Ripley, CNN, Hong Kong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: In just a moment, French officials say it might be the worst tragedy to hit the English Channel. We will talk more about the capsized

boat that's left 31 migrants dead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:51:47]

QUEST: More on the breaking news now, French officials say the migrant boat that capsized in the channel, maybe the worst ever accident in that

stretch of water. At least 31 people that we know of tonight have died, and that includes five women and a little girl. They were floating in a dingy

off the coast when their boat got into difficulties.

In the past few weeks, migrants have been trying in their thousands to reach the United Kingdom by flimsy dinghies and boats.

Emmanuel Macron, the French President said he would not let the channel become a graveyard, saying: "We are all moved by this tragedy which strikes

at the heart of each of us and our values. To the families of the victims and their loved ones," he says, "I want to express my compassion and the

unconditional support of France. I assure them that everything will be done to find and condemn those responsible, networks of smugglers who exploit

misery and distress, endanger human lives and ultimately, decimate families."

The British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said it was time to target the people traffickers who send these people on their journeys.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: And it also shows how vital it is that we now step up our efforts to break the business model of the

gangsters who are sending people to see in this way, and that's why it's so important that we accelerate if we possibly can all the measures contained

in our borders and nationalities, bills so that we distinguish between people who come here legally, and people who come here illegally.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: In the last hour, Hala Gorani spoke to Andy Hewett, head of advocacy for the Refugee Council who explained why so many people are

electing to take this dangerous and tonight, deadly journey?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDY HEWETT, HEAD OF ADVOCACY, REFUGEE COUNCIL: Well, I think, the first thing to say is the vast majority of people fleeing persecution, who enter

Europe do claim asylum in the first or second European country that they enter.

Say for example, if we look at the data, countries like Germany, France, Italy and Greece have far more numbers of people claiming asylum than the

U.K. does. But for a small group of people, a small minority of people they will have or feel that they have compelling reasons to come to the U.K.

They are normally reasons because they have family connections, have family members in the U.K. They might have English as their second language. They

might have other cultural connections to the U.K. So those are the factors that sort of drive the decision making.

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Also, I've heard that it's difficult -- I've heard that it's difficult to claim asylum, unless you're inside the

country. Is that correct?

HEWETT: Yes, that's true of all countries. You physically have to set foot in the U.K. to register your claim for asylum. One of the things we've been

calling for is the government -- the U.K. government to introduce what we term humanitarian visas that would allow somebody who is fearing

persecution to apply for a visa to travel to the U.K. from elsewhere in the world for the purposes of claiming asylum and therefore negating the need

to make a date dangerous journey, whether that's a dangerous across the Mediterranean or across the Channel.

GORANI: And what kind of response have you gotten to that idea?

[15:55:07]

HEWETT: Well, so far, the U.K. government has failed to engage in that suggestion. What's really clear is everything that they've done to date has

failed to stem the flow of people arriving in the U.K., and one of the reasons that people are sort of, I guess, forced into the hands of people

smugglers is because there is absolute lack of a safe alternative route for them, and humanitarian visas would be one element.

For people with a family connection in the U.K., they could, you know, if the family reunion rules were expanded, that would allow them to make an

application to come to the U.K. for the purposes of uniting with their families. So, that's another thing that the U.K. government should and

could be doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Andy Hewett there talking to Hala. Now, just before we leave you at the top of the hour, I do need to update you on what's happened on Wall

Street, mainly because obviously we are a business program and you do need to know what's happened.

The Dow has surged over the last hour of trading. It's been down all the day, but as you can see, oh there we are, we've just gone positive, just

before the end of the hour. We have just gone positive, which shows you that's how it goes -- no trading tomorrow with Thanksgiving, shortened day

on Friday, and all of that sort of thing.

We'll have more details. I'll give you the headlines before we have "The Lead" in just a moment. This is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: And a reminder of the Breaking News tonight. Dozens of migrants have died in the English Channel when their boat capsized off the coast of

France. At least 31 people are now confirmed to have died. Among them is five women and a little girl, a person is still missing. It is believed

their boat came into difficulties after it left the coast of Calais.

The French Prime Minister has called it a tragedy. One French official has said this may be the worst accident ever seen in that stretch of water. The

French President tonight has said he refuses to let the English Channel become a cemetery and that everything will be done to find, arrest, and

prosecute those traffickers who are responsible for these just dastardly accident in the first place.

There has been a rush of migrants rushing to leave France for the United Kingdom by boat. More than 200 people were rescued from the Channel last

week alone.

That's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. Those are the headlines. I'm Richard Quest.

"THE LEAD" with Kaitlan Collins is now.

[16:00:00]

END