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Quest Means Business

World Bank President Warns Of Catastrophe Over Ukraine; Russia Blocks Communique Over Ukraine War Criticism; U.S. Unveils $1.3 Billion In Military And Economic Aid For Ukraine; Not Business As Usual For G20; Putin Orders Troops To Blockade Steel Factory; Call To Earth: Protecting Big Cats; U.S. Airlines Soar On Record Revenue Hopes. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired April 21, 2022 - 15:00   ET



RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR: Sixty minutes before the end of trading on Wall Street, and those early gains that we've seen, they've

evaporated and the market is now as quite sharply lower. We'll go into the reasons why. It's all to do with the prospect for future interest rate

rises, and whether a half a point is on the market or is being priced in. That's the way the markets are looking, and the main events we're talking


Walk out on Russia once again, Finance Ministers show their disgust at Putin's war on Ukraine.

It's a crisis on top of a crisis. The I.M.F.'s Managing Director says there is a clear and present danger facing the global economy.

And the World Bank President on this program will predict a horrific catastrophe on the war in Ukraine.

We are live in Washington, D.C. at the Spring Meetings at the I.M.F. and World Bank. I'm Richard Quest. It is the 21st of April, in D.C., I mean


Good evening tonight from Washington.

The I.M.F. and World Bank Spring Meetings are not usually known for fireworks, vetoes, and walkouts. They tend to be somewhat of a duller fair,

but this year, it's anything but. The protests and vetoes over Ukraine abound. Leaders have been gathering to discuss emergency funding for

Ukraine, a country ravaged by war, but of course, Russia is a member of the fund as indeed with Belarus.

So earlier, Ministers walked out to protest against the Russian presence. Here you see this photo from the Danish Finance Minister, when the Central

Bank Governor of Russia started speaking, they walked out, even though the I.M.F. had rather asked them all just to turn their back.

The backdrop for these meetings in Washington, huge economic challenges, and so whilst -- here is of course, the spring meetings of the I.M.F. and

the tulips, most certainly are rising, so are prices and interest rates, and they look as if they're going to get even higher, and they will be with

us long after the tulips have gone.

Tonight, you will hear from the Managing Director of the I.M.F., and you'll hear from the President of the World Bank. You're also going to hear from

the Deputy Prime Minister of Spain, who is in charge of one of the top committees and the Finance Minister tonight of Indonesia, she chairs, the

G20. There was a walkout there as well.

Let's talk about walkout. The Danish Finance Minister told us what happened when the Russian Central Bank Governor and the Russian Finance Minister

started to speak.


NICOLAI WAMMEN, DANISH FINANCE MINISTER: And it is a way of saying in the clearest possible terms that we do not in any way, shape, or form tolerate

what Russia is doing in Ukraine and this is an opportunity to state that.

QUEST: And this was at the I.M.F.C. meeting.


QUEST: And you were one of the countries that led it.

WAMMEN: Yes. It was the Nordic Baltic countries that started the walkout, but many countries followed from Europe, from Asia. I saw colleagues from

all over the world sending a very clear message to President Putin and to Russia, that we will under no circumstances accept the war on Ukraine and

that we stand firmly behind the Ukrainian people.

QUEST: The I.M.F., it's sort of said, expecting it to happen. Look, just turn your back, just look the other way. Just sort of do -- but you felt

that wasn't enough.

WAMMEN: This is not a time where you can turn your back or look away. This is a time to say very clearly what is on your mind, and what's on my mind

and on many colleagues' minds is that Russia must understand that what is going on in Ukraine is totally unacceptable. It is a war against the

Ukrainian people, atrocities are taking place.


QUEST: The meeting that they all walked out of was the I.M.F.C. International Monetary and Finance Committee. It is if you like, the

steering body, the main organization within the I.M.F., and for the first time today, there was no formal communique because when the final version

was put forward, everyone agreed except Russia and since there's has to be consensus, instead, a Chairman's Statement was issued, which is essentially

the same thing.


It was issued by Spain's Deputy Prime Minister, who is also the Finance Minister. She told me that when it came to today's meetings, and the

discussions, today was a day like none other.


NADIA CALVINO, SPANISH DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Indeed, this meeting has not been business as usual. Russia's war against Ukraine has focused many of

the discussions, which means there was a very strong call on the war to stop. There was also a call on the I.M.F. and the other institutions to

step up their action, so as to preserve financial stability and support most vulnerable countries and different countries, different members

expressed their views in a different manner.

But overall, this has been a very productive meeting.

QUEST: I looked at the communique -- well, it is a not communique, is it? It's a Chairman's Statement, because you couldn't get all full agreement on

it. But I do wonder, because everything in it except the kitchen sink. I mean, what is the message from the I.M.F.C. today.

CALVINO: The message is one of unity and determination to support the global economy. That is a very strong message, a very concrete takeaway.

There is a new trust created to support funding to low and middle income countries for the structural transformation. There is a renewed and

reinforced commitment to debt relief for most vulnerable countries, and a strong support for the policies of the I.M.F. on the agenda of the Managing


So overall, discussions have been frank. They have been intense, but the outcome is very positive. And frankly, you know, when a consensus-based

organization sees one country, one individual country walk away, that makes it impossible to have a unanimously agreed communique, but that doesn't

mean that there is no agreement on the substantive issues.

QUEST: Right. But also, there's that one country, and then there are various other members, the sort of those that have -- that are not aligned

with one side or the other, but are making a difference. China, India, and those countries that are not, if you will, one side or the other.

CALVINO: No, but actually, on the substance of the communique, there was a unanimous agreement until one of the member countries walked away. And so,

there is an overwhelming majority of countries that supported the substantive elements on which we have been working and that is why I say,

the outcome is actually quite productive because there is substance despite the fact that unfortunately, one member decided to break away from this



QUEST: So with such disagreements going on, that's the scenario, if you will, the scene with which I discussed the global economy with the I.M.F.

Managing Director, Kristalina Georgieva.

There are major issues, she has described it as the most difficult time, a time of crisis on top of crisis, and the Finance Ministers disagreeing and

walking out.


KRISTALINA GEORGIEVA, MANAGING DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND: The reason is well-known, we have a country that invaded a neighbor, and there

are many that find this so unacceptable that being in the same room with representatives of this country is difficult.

But I would flag that, despite of this, the meetings were exceptionally engaged, sober, focused on the big issues we are struggling with.

QUEST: And the big issue on economic -- well, for Ukraine, but I mean, more support for Ukraine from the fund, more willingness to stand by, what

more can you do?

GEORGIEVA: For Ukraine, we have already provided $1.4 billion in emergency financing. We are very closely engaged with the authorities. Richard, they

are fantastic in the way they keep the country running, and we are working with the World Bank and others to mobilize more resources.

We opened up a special account for Ukraine and Canada has already deposited one billion Canadian dollars in it. Of course, what we want to secure for

Ukraine is that over the next couple of months, they would have the cash to pay pension, salaries, retain social services.

QUEST: But can the rest of the world essentially fund Ukraine? The number of four to five billion a month is talked of.


QUEST: Can the rest of the world do that for the foreseeable future?

GEORGIEVA: For a couple of months, yes. I don't see any problem with that, and don't forget that the country is not entirely under occupation. There

are big parts of Ukraine where the economy is reviving, so we expect to see more revenues coming into the budget. This number to go down over time.

Plus Ukraine has now over four million people outside of the country, we will see remittances are coming in as well.


QUEST: Do you expect the money being put aside? Is it gifts, loans, or donations? Sovereign debt? What is it?

GEORGIEVA: All of the above. We prioritize asking for grants. Why? Because the revenues dropped and the expenditures went up, but concessional

financing longer term loans. This is all good for Ukraine.

And don't forget, Ukraine is very prudent. They have $29 billion of reserves. We don't want them to spend this reserves because it would make

the country more at risk of chaos.

QUEST: Forgive the indelicate nature of the question, but you'll know what I'm saying, how are you ensuring the money gets spent properly? Once we're

in billions sloshing around, a billion here, a billion there. How are you making sure some isn't being siphoned off?

GEORGIEVA: So part of our privilege in Ukraine is that we had multiple programs and we have built accountability mechanisms to seek out the money

flows from the central government to regions, to people. And we will, of course, continue to monitor this.

Part of it is a remarkable change in the attitudes of the Ukrainian economic theme, the Prime Minister, the Finance Minister, the President,

you know what they say. We have a dream for a country that is vibrant, respected, honest, part of European family.

QUEST: Let's talk about the wider economic issues. It's dreadful. It's absolutely appalling. Stagflation, possibility of recession at the end of

next year, higher interest rates that will go higher, and commodity prices hitting everybody. We have never been in a position quite like this.

GEORGIEVA: It is the most difficult time we find ourselves because we have a crisis on top of a crisis, and what it means is growth is down, inflation

is up. Central Banks have to tighten. When they do, then they may throw cold water on what is already unsatisfactory growth level.

But it's not that horrible. I'm trying to tell people, look at the numbers. Growth this year is projected at 3.6 percent; disappointing; last year, it

was 6.1. We want it to be higher. But three 3.6 percent, Richard, is the average between 2011 and 2019. We only have -- I'm not going to name them,

but we only have a handful of countries with negative growth rate.

Yes, inflation is high, but Central Banks are now on the issue.

QUEST: But where do you stand on this balancing act between the need to get rid of inflation out of developed economies with higher interest rates

quite considerably, versus support elsewhere. Which is the priority?

GEORGIEVA: The priority right now is put inflation under control. It has become clear and present danger in many countries, and we know that price

stability is needed for growth. We know inflation hits the poor.

When Central Banks tighten, they need to tighten carefully and they need to give forward guidance how this is going to happen, and then comes support

for the vulnerable countries.

The role of the I.M.F. in a moment like this very high.

QUEST: Can essentially, what policymakers are trying to do is what they used to call the all-three-card trick. You can't get everything right at



QUEST: Inflation -- can they do it? Can they juggle these three balls?

GEORGIEVA: I'm pretty confident that they can do it, because Central Banks over the years have built competence and independence, and they are now

very seriously dealing with inflation mindful, they do not want to suffocate growth.

But the sequencing at this moment of time is addressing inflation when it is a risk for the economy. Prioritize your spending. Some of the spending

may have to wait for the future, you may need to tighten, and then make sure that you look into a productive structural change.

Let's remember, before the crisis, we were short on structural policies. My predecessor used to say the sun is shining, fix the roof. What did we find

out? You fix the roof when it is raining. Well, now it rains.


QUEST: That is the Managing Director of the I.M.F., Kristalina Georgieva talking to me earlier today.

We continue from here, after the break, we'll hear from the President of the World Bank. And also joining me will be the Indonesian Finance

Minister, who is also the head of the G20. Discussing some difficult meetings there as well, after the break.


QUEST: The I.M.F. and World Bank Spring Meetings taking place in Washington. It's extremely difficult times. The I.M.F. had described it as

crisis on top of crisis. The World Bank President refines it and says, the world is facing overlapping crises, and as a result we'll need to consider

Russia's future.

There is a serious and severe food shortage which could lead to famine as a result of what is happening in Ukraine. Emergency aid is going to be

required. President David Malpass at the World Bank told me the significance of the current times.


DAVID MALPASS, PRESIDENT, WORLD BANK: These are remarkable times. There is overlapping crisis. There's COVID. There's inflation, and the Russian

invasion of Ukraine, and that's been dominating the meetings and the walkouts are related to Russia and the war and just horrific in terms of

the human price and catastrophe.

And then, it expands to developing countries in general. So, it makes a very difficult set of meetings. I think useful timing.

QUEST: What can come out of it? I mean, at the end, yes, you can agree sort of bilaterally and multilaterally within certain groups for further

assistance, but a general agreement is impossible.

MALPASS: For Ukraine there can be substantial aid. World Bank is doing that and other organizations are and there was a substantial talk about

that yesterday and today. The U.S., Japan, and U.K. have been announcing additional aid in to Ukraine.


For the rest of the world, there can also be more supply of food that's produced, Canada had said today, it was going to produce more, to plant

more than it normally would in terms of crops. India is looking for release of some of its stockpiles. And they had a specific conversation on how to

do that within the international rule systems.

So there are concrete things that's useful, and also on the debt issue, this is a giant challenge.

QUEST: Who knew that Russia and Ukraine was so significant until that sort of was cut off from the rest of the world, and we're seeing the ripple

effects. How can the bank help in terms of dealing with the food crisis?

MALPASS: The bank can help countries that are short of food with some emergency aid programs, so that's one concept. We can also help through

analysis of pointing out to the world that it's a fertilizer problem, it's a food insecurity problem and we've been doing that for some years that

countries need to have more of their production, available locally, also have simply more allocated to agriculture. That's been a trend that the

world needs to pursue.

And our programs can help specifically with fertilizer, with seeds, with the crop cycle, and urging countries to be prepared for next year.

QUEST: That's key, because if Ukraine doesn't get its crop in now, it won't have a crop this year, which could sell later and into next year.

MALPASS: That's true. But what I've heard is that they are planting now, which is an optimistic sign. They're ready to get back to making

agricultural products and there is a big -- there has been rains in Ukraine that we hope that hurts Russia's attack, but it helps farmers, it makes the

ground more fertile.

QUEST: On the debt question, these countries, many of them like Sri Lanka, which are now into political turmoil, they were in debt anyway, and they

took on more debt. It would seem to arguably like a good idea when interest rates were low, interest rates are going up. What are you going to do with

indebted countries?

MALPASS: Huge challenge, and they waited too long, some of them, you know, I've been really pushing the need for more transparency in the types of

debt, the use of the proceeds, avoiding giving up collateral because one of the problems right now is even if a country wants to restructure its debt,

they've made it hard for themselves by the contracts that they've entered.

QUEST: Let's be nice about this. This is an accusation against China to an extent, either by collateralizing ports or production of fossil fuels or

whatever over many years out isn't -- they took money and they collateralized it.

MALPASS: And I'll add in non-disclosure clauses and escrow accounts. That means the money never -- the country never sees the money, it goes straight

out through a bank account in China, and then some of it comes back. So that makes it very hard to restructure.

Now, I do need to say, China is being constructive in listening to the world on this, recognizing that they have got some interest in trying to

help solve this problem. They spoke today and said, we are going to become part of the Zambia Creditor Committee. So that's one country and one step

forward, which is really important and welcome.

QUEST: On the macro economic front, if you've got -- and my words, not yours -- if we've got stagflation in many countries, and we've got

inflation that just won't go away that's entrenched, and we've got these other food crises, ultimately, we're talking about writing off debt at some

point. However, you dress this up, it's going to be writing off debt.

MALPASS: That'll be part for some of the countries where the debt is unsustainable. That's not all of the emerging markets, but some will need

to do that and there will need to be a better process to do that.

But I also want to come back to, it's important that as the advanced economies remove accommodation, they do it in a way that increases supply,

so it can address some of these inflation crises.

QUEST: Final thoughts, and this probably is more of a personal thought rather than a Mr. President thought. Do you think Europe should -- do you

think Europe should sanction and embargo Russian oil and gas and do so now?

MALPASS: That's a tough question for me. That's a political question. They have to decide that. What we know is it's going to take a long time to

untangle from dependency on Russian gas.

I was just in Romania and in Poland, that's a dominant challenge, also to rebuild -- to build stronger grids, so that they can absorb renewables.

You know, you can't just add solar panels to an existing grid. You need to strengthen the grid so that it can absorb the energy.

QUEST: And on the question of sanctions, these sanctions are going to be with us for a long time, aren't they? I mean, you know as I, the history of

sanctions, relatively easier to put on than to actually remove.


MALPASS: That, I would expect that, plus, as you know, what's happened is horrible, and so the world has to think about this and Russia's role in the

future of the world, and especially Putin's role.


QUEST: That is the President of the World Bank. Ukraine needs cash and needs lots of it. Some estimates put it at $5 billion a month to keep the

economy afloat.

The Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, a few moments ago, spoke by satellite to members of the I.M.F. and World Bank, and he suggested the

number might even be higher.


VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): At this time, we need up to seven million of U.S. dollar -- billion U.S. dollars

each month to make up for the economic losses, and we will need hundreds of billions of dollars to rebuild all this later. I'm sure that all of you

have seen those calculations.

We have to speak honestly with you and say that Russia is using aggressive methods in world markets while fighting this war.


QUEST: The President of Ukraine.

A new U.S. aid for Ukraine has been announced, $800 million in weapons and military equipment, an upgrade, if you will, the heavier artillery that

they have been seeking, $500 million in economic aid, which when you think that Zelenskyy is talking about $7 billion a month and the U.S. President

describing it as a critical window.

Jeremy Diamond is at the White House. Jeremy is with me now.

So this -- I mean, obviously all the money is not going to come from the United States. We had a military package of $800 million a couple of months

ago, a couple of weeks ago, I should say, now more, and still there is going to have to be more to come.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, exactly. Today, President Biden announcing on the one hand this $800 million of additional

military assistance for Ukraine. It actually brings the total U.S. aid since the beginning of this invasion security aid to $3.4 billion since the

beginning of that invasion in February.

This latest package is going to be additional heavy weaponry similar to the $800 million that came from the United States that was announced last week,

heavy weaponry to help with that battle in Eastern Ukraine. President Biden talking as you just said about a window of opportunity, a critical window,

to help the Ukrainians prepare for this battle that has just begun with the Russians for the Donbas, in Eastern Ukraine, much flatter territory, that

is going to be much more difficult for the Ukrainians to defend than the more forested areas around the capital of Kyiv, for example.

But as you mentioned, in addition to that military assistance, we're also seeing additional economic aid to the Ukrainians from the United States.

President Biden announcing a half a billion dollars of economic assistance to help stabilize the Ukrainian economy. This is money that can be used to

pay government salaries, pensions, and other social assistance programs inside of Ukraine, especially to help those essential workers and military

service members in Ukraine, ensure that they can continue to get salaries from the Ukrainian government.

That brings the total U.S. economic aid to Ukraine to a billion dollars over the last month, with President Biden having issued a previous $500

million for the same purpose last month, but certainly that aid will be ongoing and as you said, Richard, they're going to need a lot more of it in

the future.

QUEST: Jeremy Diamond at the White House.

President Putin is describing the liberation of Mariupol. City officials now say according to the satellite imagery, there is a horrific new

discovery of a potential another mass grave.




QUEST (voice-over): Hello, I'm Richard Quest, a lot more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS to bring to you this evening, including Indonesia's finance

minister, who will tell me about the G20 meeting and also what the plans for the country are when the G20 happens there later this year.

U.S. airlines are predicting a record revenues, U.S. airlines stocks, quite extraordinarily, are rising double digit percents. But we'll only get to

those stories after I update you with the news headlines, because this is CNN and the news always comes first.


The IMF's funding director said she's trying to make sure Ukraine gets the economic help it needs. Kristalina Georgieva says Ukraine's finance

minister wants about $5 billion a month the next three months at least.


GEORGIEVA: We are working with World Bank and others to mobilize more resources. We opened up a special account for Ukraine. And Canada has

already deposited 1 billion Canadian dollars in it.

Of course, what we want to secure for Ukraine is that, over the next couple of months, they will have the cash to pay pensions, salaries, repaying

social services.


QUEST: British lawmakers have approved an inquiry to determine whether the prime minister, Boris Johnson, lied to Parliament over COVID lockdown

parties. You'll recall he initially denied any rules were broken.

The motion for the investigation passed without a vote. The prime minister is in India. He was recently fined by the police for breaking the law.

Boris Johnson said he has nothing to hide.

The queen is enjoying her 96th birthday today, at her Sandringham estate in Norfolk. Buckingham Palace tells us she's there for a private break. It's a

landmark year for the queen; 2022 is her 70th year on the throne.


QUEST: Now so far at this year's IMF, the divisions have become apparent. There've been walk-outs from European states, the United States, Canada and

others. The Spanish finance minister, who was head of the committee, said there was no communicating because Russia wouldn't sign on, not surprising,

considering its content. It protested against the language.


And a testy meeting that led to G20 tensions as well, with Indonesia heading this year's meeting. The finance minister who said walk-outs will

not erode the importance of the G20, the finance minister is with me, Indonesia's finance minister.

First of all, yesterday's meeting, you weren't surprised -- or were you -- that they walked out?

SRI MULYANI INDRAWATI, INDONESIAN FINANCE MINISTER: No, because we've already communicated very intensively with each of the G20 member countries

and we know that, with the war in Ukraine, there is a strong response to that.

And many of the G7+ saying that they cannot be in the same room with Russia, they cannot accept the invitation that will be extended to Russia.

But I said, as a presidency, it is our job to make sure that this forum (ph) will continue, hold the meeting and pursuing (ph) the agenda, it is

not business as usual, because globally, the risk has been tilting to the very high with this war.

QUEST: So how do you prevent it becoming business as usual?

Because you've got the G20 in Bali coming up later this year. I mean, Janet Yellen is already saying she isn't going if the Russian finance minister

turns up. It's a leaders' level meeting.

What's -- I imagine, in Jakarta, there are many people, including yourself, are saying, what are we going to do?

INDRAWATI: Well, a lot of sympathy. In fact, all the G20 member countries sympathize with our position because, on the one hand, privately, they say

that they want this corporation as a premier economic forum for collaboration, need to be continued, need to be preserved.

But at this very moment when they see the conflict in Ukraine or war in Ukraine, that creates also a challenge for the global stability.

QUEST: So there has been talk, which is not Indonesia's area but there's been talk that President Biden said he would happily kick Russia out of the

G20. But that would require the other members to agree. And that's not going to happen.

INDRAWATI: Well, it is a consensus base. The G20 was established based on the consensus and the governing is of consensus. So if it is up to only

one country, it is not consensus.

QUEST: Right.

But will the G20 happen in Bali?

INDRAWATI: Yes, certainly. It will.

QUEST: Let's talk economics because if we look amongst the G20, your own country, for example, higher commodity prices. We look in Southeast Asia,

clobbered by higher commodity prices -- it doesn't really matter the source.

The reality is higher interest rates, higher commodity prices, higher inflation, lower growth. Your part of the world, Southeast Asia, is being

clobbered and will be hurt.

INDRAWATI: Well, this is actually hurting all the country, especially the developing and emerging country, first, with the high commodity price, high

inflation, high interest rate. That's definitely have a different dynamic and threatening the global recovery.

For Indonesia, we are actually enjoying some of this (INAUDIBLE) boom. But we also have a pressure in creating stability on price for the people, so

that they can afford to consume food and energy. So this is really a policy dilemma.

QUEST: I'm not aging you in any way anymore than myself. But we've both been around here, these economic things, for some time.

Is this the most difficult in terms of -- I mean Indonesia had its really bad problems in the '90s.

But is this most difficult in terms of global economics because of the undercurrents of inflation, interest rates, war in Ukraine, high debt


INDRAWATI: Yes, yes. It is really a very difficult and challenging, complex, multifaceted crisis or challenge. And that's why, when we discuss

in the G20, we are talking about this high debt for the many low income countries.

We are also talking about the high commodity, high interest rate and inflation and also the flattening for the recovery itself.

QUEST: Minister, thank you very much.

INDRAWATI: Thank you, thank you.

QUEST: So the news I didn't want to have to bring you. Ukraine, where a mass grave has been found by Mariupol. Now the satellite pictures support

the claim. And the belief is there could be up to 200 graves. We can't confirm this.

President Putin described, somewhat perversely, well, perverse it is; it's horrible -- Mariupol is being "liberated." But there has been no formal


Four buses carrying 79 people were able to leave; however there are 100,000 people still in the city, many of them, hundreds are in the steel plant,

with Putin telling his troops, don't storm the factory, blockade it. Ed Lavandera is with us from Kyiv with more.


So -- this is awful just to talk about it but we do need to.

This idea of blockade it and don't let them fly in or out?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Vladimir Putin speaking publicly for the first time in a while, that we've seen these

kinds of comments, essentially coming out to celebrate this idea that, as you mention, has quote, "liberated" the city of Mariupol.

Multiple problems with that statement. It is not totally exactly clear at this point that the city of Mariupol has fallen completely into the hands

of Russian forces. And the idea that they are liberating cities is nonsensical to many Ukrainians obviously.

But that is the language Putin uses in this situation. But the situation in Mariupol continues to be a gruesome and dire scene.

As you mentioned, we've seen and learned of these new satellite images, that bolster the accusations Ukrainian officials have been saying for some

time, that they believe victims in Mariupol, civilians, were being buried in mass graves.

And according to the satellite images, there are signs of mass graves, about 12 miles just outside of Mariupol. And the adviser to the mayor there

believes that Russian trucks are driving bodies to the scene and just dumping them off on an embankment.

And this also follows various weeks, where Ukrainian officials have been saying that they believe as many as 20,000 people have been killed there in

the city of Mariupol, as they're desperately trying to get more than 100,000 people evacuated from that city. Richard.

QUEST: Ed Lavandera, we've been talking on this program about the food insecurity and food crisis. The president of the World Bank told us that he

believes that planting is going ahead, that in large parts of the country, they are able to plant the crop, the sunflower crop and others that the

world also needs.

What's your -- what are you hearing from farmers, what's your experience?

LAVANDERA: Well, I've driven extensively through many parts of the country, especially in the western and central part of the country. And,

Richard, we do see, you know, vast farm fields, where you do find farmers are working the land.

And that, this has been a source of kind of national pride and Ukrainian officials at the top level, President Zelenskyy on down, urging people that

those who can farm to continue to farm, because it's crucial to the economy here, not only for Ukraine but also for the rest of the world.

But as you do get closer to some areas, especially in the front line, that becomes a far more treacherous situation. Just several days ago we were

about 10 kilometers or so from the front lines with farmers, where they have missiles and rockets that have landed on their land.

It's -- these -- they are literally farming under skies where bombardment is flying over them. So very dangerous situation. And then you have all the

economic factors that are affecting a lot of farmers throughout the country.

Remember, the southern ports along the Black Sea have essentially been cut off because of the Russian navy in the Black Sea. So exporting is an issue.

The price for seeds, the price for fuel, the price for machinery has all skyrocketed, making it very difficult for these farmers to do the business

that they're used to doing.

And the United Nations is predicting about 30 percent of the country's agricultural fields won't be used this year.

QUEST: Ed Lavandera, thank you sir.

It's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS tonight. From the IMF and World Bank, very strange day on the markets. We started out, we've gone down. But even

whilst we're down, airline stocks are up, we're heavily down now, we're off over 366 points. We'll talk about it in a moment. It's QUEST MEANS

BUSINESS, good evening.





QUEST: It's "Call to Earth." The difficulties of looking after the big predators, the big cats, is what we're looking at this week and the

changing traditions in Tanzania, where herders have to learn to live with lions.

It's one of the issues that our Rolex Laureate, Shafqat Hussain, who's our guest editor this quarter, wanted to show us specifically.

How does a herder and a cat live together?



SHAFQAT HUSSAIN, CNN GUEST EDITOR, "CALL TO EARTH" (voice-over): Sunrise, on the edge of Ruaha National Park. Here in central Tanzania, livestock is


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Our tribe believes Lasto (ph) is part of the family and cannot leave without them.

HUSSAIN (voice-over): Another day, another deadly threat. For livestock and people. Stephano Asecheka is part of the Barabaig, a little-known

tribe, with a long history with lions.

STEPHANO ASECHEKA, HUMAN-WILDLIFE CONFLICT MANAGER, LION LANDSCAPES (through translator): In our tribe, our customs and tradition brings us to

have pride in killing a lion as a young man. And we are made to believe that, once you kill one, it at least reduces the threat.

HUSSAIN (voice-over): Traditionally, young warriors like this would gain rewards and status from killing lions. Part of the Lion Defenders program,

Asecheka is showing them ways to protect the tribe while preserving the pride.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Lion Defenders working the village areas and their task is surveying the borders early in the morning for lion

tracks and to inform elders of the septic praising (ph) areas.

HUSSAIN (voice-over): The Lion Defenders are part of the Ruaha Carnivore Project, founded by Amy Dickman in 2009. When she first came here four

years previously, things were bad.

AMY DICKMAN, RUAHA CARNIVORE PROJECT: It was the highest rates of lion killing that have been detected in east Africa in modern times.

HUSSAIN (voice-over): She said she had to work hard to gain the tribe's trust.

DICKMAN (voice-over): We said we are just here to find out why you are killing these lions and if there is a way you can achieve whatever you

achieve through it, through conservation rather than killing.

HUSSAIN (voice-over): And eventually, persistence paid off.

DICKMAN (voice-over): They really opened up for us and since then, it's really been a transformative relationship and working with the

conservation. We certainly know that lion killings have decreased by over 70 percent in the core area that we're working in.


HUSSAIN (voice-over): The project offers financial incentives to protect lions by funding community services, like education, doctors and vets.

DICKMAN (voice-over): We'd love to collaborate with you guys.

HUSSAIN (voice-over): Dickman and her team have joined forces with other conservation projects in Kenya and Zambia to form a larger nonprofit, Lion


DICKMAN (voice-over): It can really be a way of uplifting people and making sure that wildlife is a way to get them out of poverty as well.


HUSSAIN (voice-over): Asecheka also gives tours of the park to help his tribe see wildlife from a new perspective.

ASECHEKA (through translator): Many people love seeing animals. Even the locals, who used to hunt them, want to see the lions. They feel a sense of

ownership and get to understand the right reasons why we are protecting lions.


QUEST: Gosh.

Can't go wrong with that, can you?

Well, look, let us know what you're doing to help protect the environment, your thoughts and the projects you want to become involved with. It is





QUEST: Let's go to the markets and we are just about at the session lows at the moment, the Dow is off very sharply except airline stocks are not.

First of all, the U.S. Fed chair, Jay Powell, has hinted at a 50 percent basis point rise in rates at the next meeting in May. That's what clobbered

the market. But airline stocks up sharply. Alison Kosik is with me.

Alison, let's talk about -- well, there's the airline stocks.

Why are they up so sharply?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Richard, good to see you. You know, this is the area that investors like to call the reopening trade. And

at the moment it looks like it's full steam ahead for the airlines.

After two years of massive losses after the airline industry pretty much came to a full stop, now U.S. airlines are saying they're about to report

profits once again. Today we heard from American and United Airlines.

They reported their first quarter profits and actually they said that they were weighed down by more COVID cases surging and rising jet fuel prices.


KOSIK: But their losses were smaller than a year ago. But they did say that they do expect brighter skies ahead. They do expect to book record

revenue in the current period. Proof here, from American Airlines, saying its booking and revenue in March were already the best month in the

company's history.

And a second quarter which kicked off, which usually kicks off with spring and ends with summer, it is expected to be stronger for all the airlines

across the board. They do expect a return to profitability, talking about United, American and even Delta Air Lines, which reported last week.

They do expect a return to profitability, despite the reality of higher jet fuel prices and, as you know, jet fuel is the second biggest cost for

airlines, next to labor. Then, there are the customers who will have to deal with the challenges of flying. Get ready, Richard, get ready for

fuller planes and higher prices for those tickets, Richard.

QUEST: Alison Kosik with the markets,

Alison, thank you.

And of course, as we look at the markets, Jay Powell saying there could be a 50 percent basis point, he said 50 percent basis points was potentially

on the table. I'm guessing the mere mention by the Fed chair of a potential half percentage point rise in interest rates, that's what took the market

out, clobbered the market and took it low.

That's where it's now. We will take our "Profitable Moment" after the break.




QUEST: Tonight's "Profitable Moment," from the IMF and World Bank spring meetings. The IMF and World Bank, the Bretton Woods organizations were set

up after the Second World War. And the whole idea was to act upon consensus.

And that's really good until one member doesn't agree, which, of course, is what happened, both in the G20 and at the IMFC. Russia vetoing the others,

saying they're not prepared to do business as usual and sit there.

It's not surprising that the other countries have taken that point of view nor is it the first time where warring factions have come face-to-face in a

place like IMF and World Bank. But this is the first time the organization has been driven and riven to where, for example, you can't get to

communicate; you have to have a chairman's statement.

It doesn't really matter, though. Let's not let process get in the way of substance. The reality is, they are continuing to raise money for Ukraine.

They are dealing with the global issues of inflation, interest rates, spillover effects and commodities' rising prices.

But it does beg the question, what use do these organizations have around this consensus model that's worked so well and then simply not worked this

time around?

And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for this Thursday night, I'm Richard Quest in Washington, D.C. Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead. I hope it's

profitable. The closing bell on Wall Street, the market is down.