Return to Transcripts main page

Quest Means Business

Lagarde Dashes Hope ECB Will Relent On Rate Hikes; Markets In Europe, US Fall On Inflation, Debt Ceiling; Germany Still Holding Out Against Sending Tanks To Ukraine; Alec Baldwin Charged With Involuntary Manslaughter In Deadly Shooting; Pension Reform Plan Sparks Protests Across France; IMF Managing Director Says Fighting Climate Change Will Take Trillions In Investment; Call To Earth: Bali's Water; Interpol's Chief Says Organized Crime Is Growing. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired January 19, 2023 - 15:00   ET



RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: The markets are down quite heavily on all sorts of different reasons. It is very cold here in Davos, minus 14

at the moment.

The markets, they are down, the weather down and these are the stories we're following for you today.

The ECB President Christine Lagarde tells the markets we are not finished yet.

The US Treasury is now using extraordinary measures to avoid breaking the debt ceiling.

And the Dutch PM tonight on this program says they will be sending tanks to Ukraine within weeks.

Live from the World Economic Forum, on Thursday, January the 19th. I'm Richard Quest in Davos with my good friend Marty, of course, and together

with others, we mean business.

Good evening.

Tonight, investors get a wake-up call from the head of the European Central Bank. Christine Lagarde was speaking here in Davos and she said, if you

think the bank will back down on rate rises, you should reevaluate that position.

Madam Lagarde says Europe's economy is holding up better than many had expected and the inflation fight is far from over.


CHRISTINE LAGARDE, PRESIDENT, EUROPEAN CENTRAL BANK: Inflation, by all accounts, however you look at it is way too high and our determination at

the ECB is to bring it back to two percent in a timely manner, and taking all the measures that we have to take in order to do that, which is why we

have already increased interest rates by 250 basis points, and we shall stay the course until such time when we have moved into restrictive

territory for long enough so that we can return inflation to two percent in a timely manner.


QUEST: Not surprising, after that dose of cold water, European markets fell following the President's remarks. In Frankfurt and Paris, they were

down almost two percent, and if you look at the US markets, overall, and bearing in mind that US markets have been following on from what they had

heard from one of the Fed Governors and the realization that rates will continue to rise, you're off about a third of a percent, interestingly, on

the narrow, the broad, and the tech.

Wall Street is concerned Central Banks could over tighten and that, making the matter worse, the US has now officially hit its debt ceiling. That

means that Treasury is robbing Peter to pay Paul, moving the money round as you can see. Now you see it, now you don't, as it goes to different places.

I spoke to the Chief Executive of the Bank of America.

Brian Moynihan told me when it comes to markets, it is the uncertainty that's causing trouble.


BRIAN MOYNIHAN, CHIEF EXECUTIVE, BANK OF AMERICA: Until the stability, that's the problem. The markets are bouncing along, the 10-year is already

back down on the low 350. If you when I said that a month ago, people would have said, you've got to be nuts, it is going to go up to four and stay

there because they're raising rates.

So the instability of the trade, that slows down the market activity. You need some view of an economy, some view of interest rate environment, et


Now, the good news is, we have a mild recession predicted and it's a bit to your point, but think of what happened today. The Fed's problem is the jobs

new claims number comes out and it is as low as it's ever been, not as low as it is in recession, as low as it has ever been. The employment is tight,

people have money, they are spending, but on the other hand, they're starting to feel the bite of that higher interest rates.

The good news is that may tip inflation down and then the Fed can stop and we can get through.

QUEST: But, then, you know, I was looking at the graph of interest rate rises. I mean, you and I in the past have seen it go like nice and the

steps up -- this is straight up, and yet still there is this conundrum of jobs and employment.

MOYNIHAN: Because at the end of the day, the economy, people get how much of the economic downturn pandemic was not only spackled over, so there is -

- and people were given money to -- it was piled on top of it and we still -- have think about it, the security increases are coming through now.

That's more money in people's pockets.

Companies like us, believe me, our employees are getting paid more this -- year over year, their wages grew because of the Great Resignation that we

talked about last year, and those things.

The third thing is Federal employees all got a pay rise. You've got the IRA and the infrastructure bill. Neither one, much money has been spent. You've

got the supplies that we should to the war in Ukraine, which actually empties our stores, we've got to rebuild them.

QUEST: Yes, absolutely.


MOYNIHAN: So, all of these things are massive. And by the way, the people still have more than trillions of dollars in their accounts.

QUEST: Money that wasn't spent, as the Fed has said, during the pandemic. Sir, it is time, you can't avoid it.

MOYNIHAN: Okay, I can't avoid it.

QUEST: Choose your color.

MOYNIHAN: I'll choose black, because it is easier to see. This is my wall of worry.

QUEST: Yes, what's the number one worry?

MOYNIHAN: It has got to be recession, because at the end of the day, you don't have any money to pay for this, if it can't keep the economies


QUEST: So it's the recession, the mild recession as you walk out -- and inflation.



QUEST: The CEOs are more pessimistic than they have been in a decade. The latest PwC survey says 73 percent of them think global growth will

decline this year, nearly 40 percent said their companies must change over the next 10 years to stay viable.

Not surprisingly, as you're going to see from our worry wall, global recession, inflation, Ukraine, energy crisis, COVID, the whole line of

them, I'll total them up, by the way, overall, because I haven't quite worked out, which is -- who has got the most -- global recession, inflation

or Ukraine, energy crisis -- it doesn't really matter, one way or the other, they are all showing exactly what's on people's minds.

Bob Moritz is the global chairman of PwC, and is with me now. Very good to see you, sir.

BOB MORITZ, GLOBAL CHAIRMAN, PWC: It's great to see you as well, Richard.

QUEST: So the situation is not good at the moment. And yet, there has been more optimism in the last few days at Davos. What's changed?

MORITZ: I'm not sure much yet has changed. Let's talk about that 73 percent and that 40 percent. It's a global survey with lots of different sized

organizations. We're sitting here in Davos with a little bit more optimism, but if you talk to small and medium-sized enterprises, huge panic.

QUEST: About what though?

MORITZ: Your worry board is top of mind for them specifically, and they have no ability to actually manage the risks that they see in front of

themselves right now.

QUEST: Why -- I mean, they've seen this coming. I agree, they can't do much about it to change it, but they can alter their own businesses and we

are seeing layoffs in larger businesses, restructuring of debt in others.

MORITZ: You're going to see the quality of management be a differentiating factor like never before. If we have good quality management that knows how

to manage these risks, and actually take on the change management to adjust to the disruption, great, but those that can't, Richard, are going to fall

far behind very, very quickly.

QUEST: But there's a real problem with that change of management, and it is this, firstly, you have to deal with the cyclical or the crises du jour,

but then you have to deal with the structural issues -- AI, change of distribution patterns, globalization of markets in different ways.

MORITZ: Absolutely right, and it is the combination of all those things that's actually testing management teams around the world, large and small,

no matter where you are in the world.

If I'm sitting in China, the 10-year issue I'm worried about is in fact, energy. Sources of it, the cost that's going to come their way as they come

off of coal. If you're sitting in Brazil, it's the technology changes that are yet to come. If you sit in Europe, it's actually labor and regulation

that's top of mind for them right now.

So how do I manage the collective focus points that they've got, and the specific issues in the short and long term?

QUEST: We have talking of that. We have these new scope regulations coming out and reporting regulations coming out on sustainability. Most

companies sort of know about it, but are not ready for it.

MORITZ: Not at all.

QUEST: Is that a big problem?

MORITZ: It is a problem. We have two fundamental issues right now, the reporting standards from a West perspective was set up to actually

demonstrate progress and allow for comparability with transparency for decisions to be made.

The reality is we have fragmentation on rulemaking around the world. The EU is doing one thing, the SEC is doing another, the global standard setters

are doing another, and the problem is, all of it is too complex and not implementable.

QUEST: I don't mean to be sort of blunt, well, maybe I do mean to be blunt, but all of this uncertainty and all this difference and all of these

things, it is good for your business, because people need guidance, advice, consultants.

MORITZ: The reality is we actually do thrive in a world that's uncertain and there is change. People need our help. But this issue, this economy

impacts us as well.

Rising inflation and wages impacts our people and our bottom line, our ability to invest, and we've got to do a better job delivering value faster

to those organizations.

QUEST: And the competition from your competitors is fierce, isn't it?

MORITZ: It is going to continue and we expect it to be that way. We can only control what we control. Let's make sure we do the best we can and

leave the rest to everybody else.

QUEST: Right. Well, choose your color, sir. Green. Green is in vogue tonight.

All right, come over to the wall. Put yourself on the wall. Where would you like the look of.

MORITZ: So, the biggest issue in the short term is global recession right here.

QUEST: Give a tick. Yes.

MORITZ: And the biggest issue for me personally is this one. We are at a problem point of view in terms of the haves and the have nots.

QUEST: You went for two.

MORITZ: I did go for two.


We can't solve all the other problems on that without money in people's pockets, including governments and business. The recession is going to be

impactful. We've got to deal with it.

I can't fix everything else, and if we don't fix everything else fast, social inequality.

QUEST: Good to see you, sir.

MORITZ: You as well.

QUEST: Very grateful that you came to talk to us. Thank you, sir.

It's my last day here at Davos, and this year's meetings aimed to work on issues that can at times feel unsurmountable, as we've just been talking

about, whether it's inflation, climate change, inequality, just a few.

Now, after a week of panels and meetings, some people are leaving encouraged. Yes, the Chief Executive of Standard Chartered spoke to me and

Bill winters, said he'd had a very good Davos experience.


BEN WINTERS, CHIEF EXECUTIVE, STANDARD CHARTERED: I felt a level of optimism, this time around that I've not seen in Davos for a long time, in

fact, that I haven't seen in other fora that have taken place recently within the fall or whatever.

Hard to put my finger on exactly what, but I think maybe the drop in inflation is helpful. The fact that the large powers of the world are

speaking again with each other, and including at Davos, these are encouraging things.

QUEST: It's interesting you say that because we started off on Monday with everybody saying it's a downbeat Davos, it's a sort of a different

Davos. It's a Davos that doesn't seem to be hitting its mark, but you're saying that's not what you think.

WINTERS: That is not what I've experienced.

QUEST: Right.

WINTERS: I've met with lots of policymakers and other business people, with NGOs, and other representatives of civil society and the list of challenges

is huge. It's absolutely huge. We know that.

But for the first time, I feel like there is a sense that that we could actually do this. So we could actually have an impact on rising

temperatures on the planet, and we could actually have an impact in terms of addressing some of the inequality issues that had been the bane of our


QUEST: Interest rates will top out at some point in '23, mild recession potentially, in some countries. We can argue about whether it'll be in the

United States or not, but as we move forward, where do you see the light?

WINTERS: I actually see a big light in China. You know, China is obviously going through a terribly difficult COVID period right now, but they are

ripping the Band-Aid off as it were, and once the Band-Aid is ripped off, the wound can heal.

So I think China is going to have a very good, certainly second half, maybe even second quarter, as they put COVID behind them.

QUEST: And on the exactly other side of that coin, let's take the US, which just seems to be mired in the same issues -- the debt ceiling, which

has hit today, political instability -- not instability, political discord in the US, two years now of who knows what.

WINTERS: This is Washington stuff, right?

QUEST: Yes, but it is --

WINTERS: In the meantime, the rest of the country is really doing quite well. I mean, I never say this publicly, but I think when the government is

paralyzed, we tend to do a bit better in the United States. So maybe we should be inviting even more paralysis.

The debt ceiling is concerning, but I assume that --

QUEST: But you see all of these people who believe that it will all get sorted out.

WINTERS: I absolutely do, because if you're an elected official, and you're at the helm, when the United States defaults on its debt, you can't

possibly have much of a political future.

So I assume that the rationale and rationality will prevail.

QUEST: Choose your color.


QUEST: The worry wall. You can circle and a tick, preferably on the same one, but -- or you can write in if there is something else that you are --

always getting ready, oh.

WINTERS: And, yes, but they're the same.


QUEST: Another one on the wall.

When we come back, the Dutch Prime Minister tells me he is confident Europe can reach a deal over exporting tanks to Ukraine. You're going to hear from

Mark Rutte, he is next. Then we have the Engie Chairman. He'll be with us to talk about energy and perhaps even labor relations in Europe.

And finally, Interpol Secretary-General Jurgen Stock will be with us to tell us about cybersecurity, and what's Interpol is interested in,

hopefully, all of that from Davos as we continue our coverage tonight.




QUEST: Stop fearing Putin and send us the tanks. That's the message from one Ukrainian official today. Kyiv is waiting for a decision from Germany

on its Leopard 2 battle tanks.

The momentum is now behind sending Ukraine heavier weapons, the types of arms once feared might provoke Moscow, not so much now. Here, for instance,

is the UK Defense Secretary, Ben Wallace.


BEN WALLACE, UK DEFENSE SECRETARY: In 2023, it's time to turn the momentum that the Ukrainians have achieved in pushing back Russia into gains and

making sure that Russia understands that the purpose now is to push them back out of Ukraine and to restore Ukraine's sovereignty.


QUEST: Tanks could allow Ukraine to expel Russia rather than just resist. But why do Germany's tanks matter? Well, many other NATO countries

have them, they are in a larger supply and therefore can be sent and they can't send them to Ukraine though without Germany's approval.

Russia is said to be reloading and is expected to launch a major spring offensive. So there is a very narrow window to help Ukraine prepare.

Luckily, we have Nic Robertson, who is with me from London.

Nic, I'm getting weary on this tank issue, you know, send them or don't, but this painful process of waiting for Germany to give just so that

everybody is on board. By the time they send them and train them, wouldn't it be too late?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: That's obviously President Zelenskyy's concern. You know, our warriors are brave,

courageous. The people of Ukraine are motivated, but if there are thousands of Russian tanks coming at our troops, what can we do?

There's been -- this has been kind of a scenario and I think this is why you're tired of speaking about it, because President Zelenskyy is in the

war. He sees the war. His troops are in it. He gets the reports.

He is the guy that are sending those soldiers in some cases, to their deaths. So he feels this keenly, and they've been seeing and watching

what's happening.

Look, Russia had that big recruitment drive, 300,000 troops late last year. A hundred thousand of them put in the lines, many of them dead already, but

they have trained up the other 200,000 and that is the concern and that's the picture coming from Soledar and Bakhmut where Russia puts huge numbers

of men's lives in the frontline, loses a lot of them, but it stops Ukraine taking territory.

President Zelenskyy knows to stop this war of attrition, they've got to punch through those Russian lines and that is where the tanks come in. So

the British Challenger tanks -- Challenge 2 will be there.

Look, I've been in the field with US tanks, the Abrams tanks. These are huge beasts, but they are technologically a nightmare to run. They have jet

engines, the same as an airplane. It takes a guy with a computer to try to figure out what's wrong with the engine.

So the Leopards, lots of people in Europe have them, put them in the field, easier to train lots of Ukrainian soldiers to use this same tank, easier to

repair in the field, it goes further on a tank of diesel than the Abrams will do.

There are so many reasons to get them in, but yes, it is hanging on Germany right now.


QUEST: Right, but Nic, hang on, hang on. At the end of the day, is it your view, these tanks are going to be sent? And really what we're just

going through is a rather painful process.

ROBERTSON: Yes, they're going to be sent. I mean, that's my view. I think there is a political momentum building, it's been step by step. You know,

from the early days of the war, when they were getting bullets, the Ukrainians were then getting these anti-tank shoulder launch missiles, then

it was air defense, and then it was artillery, and it's all been coming.

But it's been coming at the back end of when Ukraine once -- the trajectory is there, the armored fighting vehicles that they need to punch through the

frontlines, those have been committed recently.

So the tanks are really the next piece in that jigsaw puzzle. Let's not forget NATO's view of Ukraine in the future is a country that has NATO

compatible military equipment that can be operated the same as in any NATO nation. It may not be a member, but it will be able to do that.

This is where Ukraine is moving, and militarily, it needs to fast because Russia is preparing potentially this big offensive.

QUEST: All right, Nic Robertson in London, thank you.

Nic Robertson says he believes they will be sent to -- the tanks will be sent. He had obviously been listening to the Dutch Prime Minister in my


Well, Mark Rutte told me, it is only a matter of days, not weeks, before European leaders agree on sending tanks to Ukraine.


MARK RUTTE, DUTCH PRIME MINISTER: There has been broad-based support to send military gear. We have sent so much since the start of the war. Of

course, this debate going among tanks, and here the issue is that this will be a next step in the fight, it might be necessary, but I do understand the

Germans are almost saying that you need a broad coalition.

QUEST: Right. But how can you square that circle with Zelenskyy saying, don't ask me what you want, what I need, I'm telling you what I need.

RUTTE: Yes. First of all, let's go back why we do this. This is not only because of our values, but also because if Russia will be successful in

Ukraine, then it won't stop there, it will continue. So this is crucial that Zelenskyy, that Ukraine wins it and that Russia loses this war.

And so he needs all the stuff he can get to, that's clear. But sometimes you have to be also honest with him and say, if you want things, for

example, at this level, he is asking for them, it is necessary that we do this not just by one country, but by a group of countries.

And that is a debate, we are now having, the dialogue in Europe with the US, I am fairly confident that you can bring it to a conclusion.

QUEST: Is there a risk that whilst you're all talking about it, he loses?

RUTTE: No, this won't take that long, and we know that traditions are really building their capacity to attack. That might happen between now and

six weeks, two months, we don't know, whatever. But this has to be solved in the next day, the next week, and I think we can solve it.

We have decided to join the Patriot mission the Germans and the US have been doing, and don't forget, Germany is doing so much. They, probably in

Europe, next to the UK are doing the most in delivering military gear to Ukraine.

So now this discussion has to be finalized.

QUEST: I want to talk about the economy. Interest rates are going higher, probably will still go higher. I know that's the ECB, you won't

comment on that. I'll give you that one there. Don't worry, I've been down this road before.

But if Europe is going into a recession, that's going to take a political price for you and you've had a few of those in the past.

RUTTE: I'm not sure Europe will go into a recession. I am not an economic forecaster, so we have to see economically what will happen, but

when we came into Davos, everybody was a bit pessimistic. There is now more optimism, also, because of the latest figures coming out of the UK, coming

out of Germany, being more positive than we originally thought.

But it is clear that the fundamentals of the economy have to be taken care of for Europe. That means getting government borrowing down, getting all

the reforms going like in the pension systems like France is doing at the moment, which is crucial.

QUEST: Two last areas, you saw overnight the Prime Minister of New Zealand is -- now, she stood there and she said very honestly, it requires

fuel in the tank.


QUEST: And I don't have fuel in the tank. Have you got fuel in your tank?

RUTTE: Yes. That's the problem for my political opponents that there is still a lot of fuel in the tank, but I very much will miss Jacinda. She is

great. And I text messaged her this morning. We were in contact and I said you have been a leader, not just in New Zealand and in the region, but also

in the UN and also a role model for many people.

QUEST: I bet your political opponents wish you would run out of fuel. Sir, do have a color.

RUTTE: Can I choose?


RUTTE: This is a call of my party.

QUEST: Another blue. Come over here to the worry board. So, what are you going for? You're a Prime Minister, so we allow Prime Ministers to have

two, if you want to.


QUEST: Because obviously it's --

RUTTE: Of course, my big worry is inflation.


RUTTE: That's a big issue and we have to bring it down. That also means that we have to offset extra government spending to make sure that we get

this done, and the other, of course, is functioning of the democratic system.



QUEST: That was Mark Rutte.

Now, Jacinda Ardern had ambitious plans when she became New Zealand's Prime Minister. She planned to solve the housing crisis by building 100,000

homes. She campaigned on economic equality and women's rights and those efforts were overshadowed by COVID and called for strict lockdowns.

I spoke to the Prime Minister in Davos four years ago, it was early in her term, and there was room for more optimism.


JACINDA ARDERN, NEW ZEALAND PRIME MINISTER: What's the challenge to global growth at the moment? Well, trade tensions. What's given rise to those

trade tensions? Since -- from domestic populations which politicians are responding to, the global trade, globalization has not delivered for them.

We have to think about the wellbeing of our people, whether or not people are thriving in our economies. Otherwise, we see the kind of disruption

that I think we're seeing now and ultimately, that affects our democracy, so not woolly at all.

QUEST: Well, not woolly, but it is also difficult to provide policies like on climate change, like the sorts of policies you're trying to

introduce in New Zealand, but they sound good, but execution is the difficult part as you're discovering.

ARDERN: You're absolutely right, which is why probably most economies so far have created scorecards, checklists. What we're trying to do is embed

it into our policymaking, so that's what we're doing differently.


QUEST: The Prime Minister of New Zealand, well, for the moment.

More than a million people were on the streets of France today, saying no to the proposed pension plan changes.

We will hear from the Chief Executive of the energy giant, Engie, whose workers participated in the strike.





QUEST: The actor, Alec Baldwin, will be charged with involuntary manslaughter over the death of Halyna Hutchins, who was the cinematographer

that was killed on the set of his film, "Rust."

She was struck by a bullet from the actor's prop gun. Baldwin maintains he did not pull the trigger. And prosecutors in New Mexico are also charging

the film's armorer. Joining me now is CNN's entertainment reporter, Chloe Melas.

What's the, I mean, he says he didn't pull the trigger. And I suppose that it's an involuntary manslaughter, nobody is suggesting that he did it

willingly or wantonly. But this is really about, you should've known better. This is the message.

CHLOE MELAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's a very strong message, Richard, because the district attorney, speaking to CNN today, saying that this is

negligence, that this is more than just a breakdown of safety, that Alec pulled the trigger, in their opinion, and that he's responsible for the

death of Halyna Hutchins, along with two others, Dave Halls, who has accepted a plea deal.

He was the assistant director on the set. Hannah Gutierrez Reed, the film's armorer, who is facing the same charges as Alec Baldwin.

In a statement to CNN via Baldwin's attorney, he says he's going to fight these charges, Richard, and that, you know, he's not going to go down

without a fight.

We know Alec, he sat down with me in August and he's been vocal about his innocence and, you know, he's maintained that this is a tragic mistake.

Here's a little bit of my interview from August of what Alec Baldwin told me.


ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: The business is a business which is cautious and careful and protects the members of the crew all the time, all the time as

a rule.

And this is a one in a billion event. And in that one in a billion event, there are two people who didn't do what they were supposed to do, they

didn't do.

I'm not saying I want them to go to prison or I want their lives to be hell but I want -- but I want everybody to know that those are the two people

that are responsible for what happened.


ELLIS: So you hear it from Alec in August. And now his attorney, telling CNN in a statement, this decision distorts Halyna Hutchins' tragic death

and represents a terrible miscarriage of justice, adding, Mr. Baldwin had no reason to believe there was a live bullet in the gun or anywhere on the

movie set.

He relied on the professionals with whom he worked, who assured him the gun did not have live rounds. We will fight these charges and we will win.

Meaning and also in the interview that I did in August, that those responsible are Hannah Gutierrez Reed, the armorer, Dave Halls, the

assistant director, which are facing charges.

But again, Alec saying, this had nothing to do with me. I should've been able to fire the gun 1 million times and there never should've been a live

bullet on the set.

Richard, I found it really interesting that the DA said that we may never know how a live bullet got to the set and that, essentially, in their

minds, it doesn't really matter how it got to the set.

QUEST: Chloe Melas, we will talk more on this, thank you.

More than 1 million people in France went on strike today. They were protesting against plans to raise the retirement age. In Paris, there were

clashes with the police. The strike disrupted trains, flights, schools and businesses. Melissa Bell is our correspondent in Paris who said this.


MELISSA BELL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is the first day of what French trade unions hope will be many more days of strikes and

protests against the proposed pension reform here in France. On the part of the government to try to raise the age retirement from 62 to 64.

And this, despite the fact that Emmanuel Macron doesn't have a parliamentary charger right now.

He's made it his call to get that pension reform pushed through by the summer as you can see, these demonstrations, remarkably well attended for a

first day of strike and the protests across the country with public sector workers, private sector workers that walked off their jobs.

And many people attending this rally here in Paris but also across the country. The beginning of where the trade unions hope will be enough

opposition from the street to force the government to back down -- Melissa Bell, CNN, Paris.


QUEST: The strike has also touched France's energy sector. Electricity output was down sharply. And most refinery workers stayed at home. The

French utility, ENGIE, said about 40 percent of its electricians and gas workers were on strike. They were joined by 7 percent of its other staff.

Jean-Pierre Clamadieu is the chairman of ENGIE, he's with me now.

Good to see, sir.



QUEST: You really got caught in the middle there, didn't you?

I mean, nothing you can do about that.

CLAMADIEU: No, I think it's a government decision to introduce a new law into a parliament and start the discussion. And indeed, we are seeing the

unions protesting this.

QUEST: Have you taken a position on this, as a company?

CLAMADIEU: We have not taken a specific position. But I think there is clearly a need to balance our retirement scheme in France and I think the

government proposal goes into this direction.

QUEST: You are preparing for more disruption?

CLAMADIEU: I think, yes, I think discussion on the parliament will last a few weeks and it will probably (INAUDIBLE) other demonstrations during this


QUEST: Let's turn to energy and the issues with Ukraine. The view now seems to be that Europe will escape.

CLAMADIEU: Yes. Europe will escape outage; Europe will escape the lack of gas or electricity. We are in a pretty reasonable position these days. Gas

storage and (INAUDIBLE) level; LNG boats are flowing into Europe and, yes, we are confident that we are good for this winter without major damages.

QUEST: Has the necessary structural changes been made?

I don't want to push forward too far but for '23 to '24, because people are saying, really, the issue is not now because we're sort of on the downside

of this. It's really '23-'24.

CLAMADIEU: I think it will take a few more years to make the structural changes, which are necessary. In fact, we need to secure long-term gas

contracts from the U.S., from countries like Qatar. And we don't have capacity available for this contract until '27 and it means that, today,

we're getting boats but on a spot basis.

QUEST: Right, so does this mean you have to pay more for it all?

Does this mean you're basically, you're traders and you are literally ringing around the world, saying, can I have a bit next Tuesday, please?

CLAMADIEU: Today I think the market is reasonably well balanced. But one of the reasons is that China is not -- China's economy is not running at

full speed. So we're looking very carefully at what is happening in China currently.

QUEST: We've had two or three guests this week have all said or alluded to this, do you believe that, as China ramps up into Q2, there will be an

increase in prices because demand will be that much higher?

CLAMADIEU: There could be an increase in prices. I think there are still debates among experts but our experts at ENGIE, we feel that we will be

able to refuel our storage and go through the next winter, again, without any issue, regarding access to energy.

QUEST: One oil company chief here said to me, you know, we might be fooling ourselves a bit overall. The reality is the risk is on the upside

for prices.

CLAMADIEU: From where they are today, there is probably a risk on the upside. But today, gas prices in Europe are at 60, there were at 300

(INAUDIBLE) at the end of August. Historically, they were much lower.

So starting from where we are today, there could be a bit of an upside risk if China, indeed, (INAUDIBLE) consumption moves up significantly.

QUEST: How are you doing between the fossils and the renewables?

Everybody is putting huge resources. We know that there's not enough money at the moment to do this.

CLAMADIEU: In fact, (INAUDIBLE) but ENGIE has been a very clear choice. We want to move big way into renewables. Last year, we've connected

(INAUDIBLE) to the grid, 40 watts (ph) of new capacity. We are willing to move as quickly as possible to six gigawatt (ph) new renewable assets per


Our objective in 2040 is to have 80 gigawatts of renewable power available. So clearly the choice for us is to move strongly into renewables.

QUEST: We are at that time, sir. We are at that time. You pick a color and you join me at the wall.

CLAMADIEU: OK, very good.

QUEST: Blue, of course. Blue is the color. Everyone's going -- let's see what Interpol does later. Probably red for a red notice or something.

Right, the worry board.

What's your biggest worry at the moment?

Global recession, inflation, Ukraine, energy crisis, COVID, democracy or you can write something in yourself.

CLAMADIEU: All of these are very relevant. But you know, as my job, it's to make sure that we supply energy to our consumers. I think energy crisis

will be the first one. But again, with China reopening, no one has ticked it but, for me, I think it's really a point of attention.

QUEST: It's good to see, sir. Very grateful to have you with us, thank you very much, indeed.

CLAMADIEU: Thank you.

QUEST: The climate change we were just talking about there, it will require serious financial investment. We've heard this time and again. It's

also the message from the IMF chief.

On a panel earlier today with me, Kristalina Georgieva told me governments can't be selfish and must focus on the big picture.


KRISTALINA GEORGIEVA, MANAGING DIRECTOR, IMF: Number one priority for all of us is to recognize that we are in the same boat.


And if one institution succeeds and another one fails, in the end, we all suffer.

QUEST: I don't agree on that. I don't agree.

GEORGIEVA: Well, we are in the same boat.

QUEST: Yes, but you're on the same boat when you're on the Queen Mary and some are in the first class, some are in the steerage.

GEORGIEVA: I'm sorry to break this news to you but we're not on Queen Mary, we're on the Titanic.


QUEST: I gave you that one, I gave you that one.


QUEST: There is some humor here at Davos.

An historic arrest in Italy this week. Authorities captured the nation's top mafia boss. The head of Interpol will be with me about a 30 year

manhunt for Italy's most wanted.




QUEST: Climate change has been the issue everyone has been talking about here at Davos and one reason, perhaps, thanks in part to the shortage of

snow compared to years past. Those trees in years past would've been heaving with snow, heaving. But not now.

Well, on the Indonesian island of Bali, it's a very different problem. But climate change is still there and, this time, it's a water crisis. And that

is where the Green School Bali comes into play.

On today's Call to Earth, we visit the campus of the environmentally focused institution and we highlight one of the island's biggest climate




BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Indonesian province of Bali is known for its rich culture, breathtaking natural beauty

and rain, lots of rain.

But while tourism took a hit during the COVID-19 pandemic, a five-month rainy season does not stop millions from visiting the island in a typical

year. And for those who live here, the seasonal deluge serves as a reminder of an ongoing water crisis. In fact, one innovative local school has made

the stuff of life the centerpiece of its curriculum.


LESLIE MEDEMA, GREEN SCHOOL BALI: We chose water as the theme for last year and this year because, despite what everybody thinks, there's a water

shortage in Bali. We have rains for months and months and months and they fill the reservoirs but very, very quickly those reservoirs run dry.


WEIR (voice-over): More tourists and residents take a dramatic toll on the island's natural water resources. But that's not the only concern.

MEDEMA (voice-over): Just in the last 10 years, many, many villages have been noticing their once clean water has turned very, very dirty and no

longer usable. We've noticed a very serious water crisis arising in a place where that really should not be the case.

WEIR (voice-over): Tucked away in a forested patch miles inland from the southern beaches, the Green School Bali was built to create the next

generation of problem solvers.

MEDEMA (voice-over): Currently on campus, there are 50 student-led projects that have been activated.

WEIR (voice-over): Built from bamboo and other sustainable material, the impressive open-air facilities were designed to inspire imagination and

creativity. Each structure, a base for what the school's founders call a living curriculum.

MEDEMA (voice-over): The point is to be part of reimagining education to be something that inspires action-based learning now, all across the globe.

We are cultivating an optimistic, thoughtful and positive approach to climate and climate action. We want them to feel hopeful. We want them to

feel like they have the skills, they have the ability to engage proactively in the world.

WEIR (voice-over): After a group of students became fascinated with biofuels, the school created a network of biobuses, each running on used

cooking oil refined by science.

MEDEMA (voice-over): You're looking at a really wide ranging learning experience, from enterprise, to marketing, to management, because it became

its own company and the largest biofuel transportation company in Indonesia.

WEIR (voice-over): Dipta is an 11th grader, driven to find solutions by the desperate need close to home.

DIPTA, STUDENT, GREEN SCHOOL BALI: It starts off personally, right?

The problem comes off from my home town -- because we didn't have enough water. And then after that, realizing that also a lot of other people don't

have access to clean drinking water.

WEIR (voice-over): He launched Liquify, a nonprofit with a mission to provide sustainable filtration systems, help residents build recharge wells

that replenish aquifers and water catchment systems to collect rainfall for other uses.

DIPTA: The innovation hub that we have in Green School gives me the tools to create what I need to create, what I want to create and to help me help

other people as well.

WEIR (voice-over): The Green School Bali, opened in 2008 and now includes locations in New Zealand, South Africa and Mexico.

MEDEMA (voice-over): Our mission is a community of learners, making our world sustainable. And so, when you put community back at the center of a

school, you end up being more accountable for the actions that you take. And I think that's a good thing. It's the full spectrum of local to global

action-based environmental learning.


QUEST: Call to Earth and let us know what you are doing to answer the call. We want to hear from you, #CallToEarth.





QUEST: The trial for the mafia boss Matteo Messina Denaro is now on hold until March. Italy's most wanted man was finally caught this week. We

talked about it; 30 years on the run, it's been a big month for international policing, as you might understand.

The son of the infamous drug lord, El Chapo, was captured in Mexico. Unfortunately, 29 people died in that mammoth operation.

The same week in Sudan, officials caught an alleged human trafficking kingpin. Interpol said he likely smuggled thousands of victims.

Let's find out from the source itself, Interpol, which, of course, helps the police forces find the world's most wanted criminals. The head of it is

Jurgen Stock.

And I'm so grateful, sir.

JURGEN STOCK, INTERPOL: Thank you for having me.

QUEST: Thank you. So this organized crime business, it's not just -- you were telling me a minute ago, it's not only real; it's growing.

STOCK: It's growing, it's definitely growing and the more resources law enforcement globally invests, the more cases they are detecting because

it's a criminal economy that takes place in the underground. So they don't want to make a lot of noise in most of the countries. So the more resources

we risk, the more cases we identify.

QUEST: So when we romanticize the Cosa Nostra and we think of the mafia and all of that, that that really annoys. You

STOCK: No, I mean, there is nothing romantic in organized crime. It's brutal business, it's violence, very often. It's infiltrating our societies

with the illegal proceeds. And they're making multi millions, billions of dollars that are reinvested into the illegal economy.

So there's nothing romantic, it's brutally and we know how many people have lost their lives.

QUEST: Right, so you've got all this organized crime over here. But now you've got cybercrime which is your number one issue for police forces,

really, besides obviously the bread and butter stuff.

STOCK: Yes, it's the number one and it's a completely different business model, if I might say, from, for instance, the old-fashioned traditional

mafia type of crime, where people know each other, same families, same country.

Cybercrime is anonymous, underground economy. People only communicate with nicknames. They're using the kind of Yellow Pages.

QUEST: But when it becomes state sponsored cybercrime, I know you're not political but I'll give you an example of Russia, for example, which is

still a member. But when it becomes state sponsored, you really are -- it's a very difficult thing for you to deal with.

STOCK: No, if it's state sponsored, Interpol is out, clearly. We need that for the intelligence community or any other body. Interpol deals with

crime, criminal activity. And 80 percent of all the attacks around the world is done, conducted by criminals, purely, who simply want to make

money and no political intention.

QUEST: Ransomware, to pay or not to pay?

STOCK: Definitely not to pay because, if you pay, you finance organized crime. So the message is, contact your police but, first and foremost,

protect your systems from infiltration.

That's most important that we all understand that our systems are under threat. It's just a matter -- not matter of if you get attacked, it's a

matter of when you get attacked. And I'm very happy to hear, here in Davos, that the topic of awareness now reached the C3 level, of course.

So they are aware. You have to invest. But if in case you get a victim, be prepared, have a plan in place.


QUEST: But the temptation. Look, if the price is not that high and you can get your computers back and you can get back into business, the temptation

is to pay.

STOCK: No, but if you are well prepared, you can avoid that from happening. That's why we have to invest in IT security. We all, our private

systems but also companies and the critical infrastructures in our societies. We are all under threat. The threat is increasing. That is quite


Artificial intelligence will help also the criminals to attack our systems.

QUEST: Choose a color.

STOCK: Red would be red notice, green stands for my country, for hope, but I would go for blue because blue is police.

QUEST: OK, yes, that's good.

STOCK: Blue is police.


QUEST: I had not thought about that. Come over here, sir. Come and join me at the wall.

So what's the biggest worry at the moment that you've got or that you think you want to really point up?

Or you can write something in yourself.

STOCK: I would like to add the topic of cyber threat, because that concerns all of us, as individuals, our economies, our countries. And

again, it's -- we all have to understand the threat is only going to grow. So more sophisticated, more complex, more international.

QUEST: But it's a bit like credit card fraud. As long as the insurance company picks it up, as long as my credit card reimburses me the amount, it

becomes, I wouldn't say victimless crime but it doesn't affect me.

STOCK: No, but the private sector has an important role to play in preventing crime but also helping law enforcement to investigate crime. All

the information sits in the private sector. And that is my role here in Davos, to build these partnerships with private sector, to make the world a

safer place.

QUEST: Very glad you came in to talk to us. Good to see you, sir. Thanks very much, indeed.

STOCK: Thanks for having me.

QUEST MEANS BUSINESS, live tonight from Davos. We will have a "Profitable Moment" after the break. Don't pay.




QUEST: Tonight's "Profitable Moment" from Davos.

Well, Marty, it was like this, they all came here and they had a good time. They discussed the big issues of the day. There was no major moment here in

Davos, Marty.

But I think at the end of the day, everybody will go home feeling it was time well spent.

The climate issue was very much on the agenda. And the big issue of Ukraine was front and center throughout.

Overall, will this go down as one of the red letter big Davoses of our time?

No, I don't think it well, except for the fact, of course, we were here after a three-year break. But you get that point. Yes, I know, we haven't

been building you over the last three years.

No, put it all together, I think Davos has shifted. No longer just the great and the good, there's civil society, NGOs, real community here. And

that really made it well worth being here. Oh, yes, I see you've got the ski.

And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for this Thursday night. I'm Richard Quest in Davos. Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead, I hope it's profitable.

I'll see you in London tomorrow. Thank you.