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Quest Means Business

Death Toll Exceeds 20K in Turkey-Syria Earthquake; South African President Declares Disaster amid Energy Crisis; Opposition Leader: Blackouts Biggest Disaster for Economy. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired February 09, 2023 - 15:00   ET



RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: It is 10 o'clock in the evening here in Cape Town in South Africa. A Special Edition tonight of QUEST MEANS

BUSINESS, as the South African President delivers his State of the Nation Address at a time declaring a State of Disaster.

Cyril Ramaphosa spoke to the nation to the business leaders, and he said there was a state of disaster, we will bring you up to date with that.

We'll continue to follow the tragic events unfolding in Turkey and in Syria. We'll have the details from New York and London in just a moment.

Live from Cape Town. It is Thursday, it is February 9th. I'm Richard Quest, and in the Western Cape, you better believe it, I mean business.

Good evening to you from Cape Town, the State of the Nation Address and a State of Disaster here in South Africa. It all relates to the provision of

electricity, the rolling blackouts, the load shedding, as it is called. You're going to hear that phrase quite a lot during the course of this


You'll also hear more positive aspects about the economy, the tourist industry. Eleni Giokos is in Dubai this evening, and Eleni has all the

latest details on the Turkish and Syrian earthquake and what's been happening.

And Eleni, of course, I'm in your old stomping ground, we will talk more about that later in the program.

ELENI GIOKOS, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Yes. Great to see you, Richard and great to see you in Cape Town.

A very good evening to you all, I'm Eleni Giokos in Dubai.

It is now more than 90 hours since a devastating earthquake struck Turkey and neighboring Syria. The death toll has now surpassed 20,000 tonight.

Temperatures are plummeting again and while hopes are fading, rescuers aren't giving up.

There have been some remarkable moments of success. In just the last hour a 17-year-old girl was pulled from the rubble alive. An arm raised in triumph

by a man freed earlier today, but these moments are tempered by growing desperation and frustration.

Mass graves are being dug to bury the victims. Many survivors left homeless desperately needing help.

In Turkey, aid is arriving from dozens of nations as anger grows over what critics call a slow response to the disaster. And right across the quake

zone, family members and friends wait in anticipation for any word about missing loved ones.

CNN's Jomana Karadsheh spoke to one of them. Take a look.


JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We are in the city of Iskenderun that as part of Hatay Province, one of the hardest hit provinces

by this earthquake, and as we were driving into the city, you can see extensive damage all over the city center.

And right here, were are told, this was an 11-storey building and it was a newly built structure. There were only a few people who were inside at the

time and we have Servar (ph) here who is with us. He has been out here waiting for news about your friends.

SERVAR, EARTHQUAKE SURVIVOR: Yes, my relative, Hewe (ph). He is my partner in work. We've been meeting here for four days now and it is really hard to

get him today. I think we are going to get news about him -- hear news about him.

KARADSHEH: And you've been out here for the past three days.

SERVAR: Yes, four days, yes.

KARADSHEH: And I mean, have you seen any survivors coming out?

SERVAR: First day, three people got out alive. The second day, three people got out dead. The third day two people and now there is only one person

left. So we are waiting to hear news about him.

As you see, this is a two-year-old building, and one of the survivors say as the earthquake began, the building just destroyed. They didn't wait for

any seconds. As it started, it just vanished. Yes.

KARADSHEH: And how are you feeling? I mean, not knowing what happens your friend?


SERVAR: I'm confused. I don't know how to feel, senseless Yes.

KARADSHEH: It must be really, really hard not knowing.

SERVAR: Yes, it is hard. It is hard. Not for me, it is hard for the city. There is many people without a home, without electricity, without water.

It's really hard for the people.

KARADSHEH: And do you have hope that they are going to find --

SERVAR: Third day, I was really hopeful because this building looks just fine, but this is the fourth day, I'm getting out of hope.


GIOKOS: The World Health Organization warns that survivors of the earthquake face a secondary disaster. Many on are living out in the open in

freezing conditions without basic necessities. Today, the first convoy of aid from the United Nations reached Northwestern Syria.

It's an opposition-held area where four million people already rely on humanitarian assistance.

CNN's Salma Abdelaziz joins us -- shares us rather how the White Helmets and other volunteers are responding to their desperate needs.


SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Rescue workers sings to little Mina (ph), talks and share stories with her. He goes on and on

chatting about anything to distract her from the horrifying reality that she is being extracted from the ruins of her home.

Mina is eventually pulled out safely. Her family has also survived, rescued by members of the White Helmets, a group of first responders seen as heroes

in this rebel-held enclave of Syria.

Nearly 12 years of war has made the group experts on the grim task of retrieving people from collapsed buildings. Syrians living in opposition-

controlled areas battered by the government of President Bashar al-Assad and feeling neglected by the world have come to depend on only themselves,

even in the aftermath of a devastating earthquake.

The result is catastrophic. Here, there is a shortage of everything, even body bags. This man has arrived with just one bag to hold all four of his

dead relatives.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

ABDELAZIZ (voice over): "We hope that countries would come to our rescue," he says, "But there is only our community that came to help us. Nobody

else. We have no one to help us."

And for the thousands of wounded pulled out of the rubble, they face a healthcare system on the brink. Another volunteer group here is the Syrian-

American Medical Society, doing its best to provide care on the ground, but equipment and supplies are scarce and countless deaths, they warned could

be prevented if they could just get the basics.

And for those survivors unharmed but made homeless, vehicles are now shelter, sidewalks or beds, shivering in olive groves is all that's left. A

crisis within a crisis that's left those with nothing somehow with even less.

Salma Abdelaziz, CNN, Istanbul.


GIOKOS: We will have more on that devastating earthquake later in the hour.

Meantime, Richard Quest is in Cape Town. You're experiencing loadshedding and you're recovering a very eventful State of the Nation Address --


QUEST: Indeed, Eleni.

A State of a Nation, which was disrupted at the beginning and turned into bedlam, where a new Minister of Electricity was announced while the lights

are being switched off, and a State of Disaster, all in a country that is still one of the most sought after for tourists, natural beauty, and a

thoroughly good time.

QUEST MEANS BUSINESS tonight live from Cape Town.



QUEST: Welcome back to QUEST MEANS BUSINESS tonight from Cape Town in South Africa.

President Cyril Ramaphosa today declared a State of Disaster. He was referring, of course, to the necessary powers to manage the power crisis

that's currently afflicting South Africa.

It was during the State of the Nation Address that he also appointed a Minister for Electricity. It was a long address, in which he went through

the various woes of the country, and indeed addressed the question of the power cuts.

The events, however, got off to a chaotic start, which I'm told is not unique. Lawmakers heckled the President from Economic Freedom Fighters

Party. It was expected and then they tried to rush the stage and had to be escorted out by Security Services.

Everybody I spoke to during the week said this is what was likely to happen because it's not the first time that the group had disrupted the address.

Then President Ramaphosa began. He vowed to deal with the blackouts. There have been outages every day in 2023. The President said the issue has had

significant economic effects.


CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT: Our country has for many months endured a debilitating electricity shortage that has caused immense damage

to our economy and to the livelihoods of our people.

Our most immediate task is to dramatically reduce the severity of loadshedding in the coming months and ultimately to end loadshedding



QUEST: Joining me now, Crystal Orderson, a South African journalist who is well versed in the manners of the State of the Nation.

Were you surprised at the nonsense at the beginning?

CRYSTAL ORDERSON, SOUTH AFRICAN JOURNALIST: No, I have been watching them for a few years and not surprised, they had promised they were going to put

up a show because they don't want President Ramaphosa to actually address the nation and so no surprise, but security usual. I've seen it all,


QUEST: What stuck out for you from the speech?

ORDERSON: Richard, this week, I spent time with small businesses across Cape Town. They are struggling to keep the lights on. They are unable to

support their families. This is basic bread and butter issues.

So the only thing I was interested tonight is to hear what exactly will happen on the power front.

QUEST: Does it make a difference that he has now declared a State of Disaster? What does that allow to happen?

ORDERSON: Richard, the problem with that is the only State of Disaster that we experienced as South Africans was during COVID. And what happened?

They ate our money.

And so South Africans just now, it is trending on Twitter, South Africans are tired. So whilst we welcome it, Richard, we just don't know -- is it

really going to happen? And are we going to see a change and shift?


QUEST: The ANC, the ruling party, which has been in power since '97, there seems to be, my words, not yours, but there seems to be little shame

or responsibility that they seem to be.

I mean, they are the ones who have been in power and the situation has happened on their watch.

ORDERSON: Richard, last year, we had more than 200 days of power cuts. We've had 13 CEOs at Eskom, which is the power utility. This is the African

National Congress, who is the government since 1994.

So we can't blame, oh, the coal power plants need maintenance. What did they do? And the reality is they didn't do much.

QUEST: We are a business program, as you know, thank you for coming here this evening and talk -- I met an ice cream sales manufacturer, little --

small chap who's got a little store, but he can't make his ice cream, and he's got to worry about it all going off. This is a story being repeated

again and again.

Is South Africa becoming uninvestable because of the power problems, you think?

ORDERSON: I think the reality is, Richard, small businesses, ordinary South Africans that are trying to feed their families that actually create

jobs in this country, they are not able to do it. They are closing shop.

So if locals can't do it, I don't think it is sending out a positive message that we are open for business. You attended the Mining Indaba, you

saw the who's who of Africa was here this week. South Africa hardly features because of our power cuts.

QUEST: It's not going to -- the real problem with the power cuts, of course is it's not going to be put right quickly, and you know, you by the

way, you have this magnificent act --

ORDERSON: . to push.

QUEST: Well, I'm using the Cape Town one.


QUEST: The Cape Town -- so it is really sophisticated, it tells me when the power is going to go off, and for how long. It is under different areas

and stages.

ORDERSON: So you can plan, so I have a friend from Liberia with me and she's like, thank God you have a plan. We don't in Liberia or in Nigeria.

So yes, we've got all this innovation, Richard, but the reality is you can't keep the lights on.

QUEST: What about Tottenham Hotspur? This is a fascinating story. The Tourism Board was going to sponsor Tottenham Hotspur, assure a sponsorship

and other things as well, and this is a very large amount of money. It has all become embroiled in various allegations, and now, it has gone away.

What went wrong?

ORDERSON: Richard, we have you here in Cape Town this week. We don't need spurs. What went wrong? We simply at this moment, Richard, there is so much

anger on the streets, there's so much anger in our communities, we cannot just simply afford to let go of millions of dollars. It's just


Politically, it's just not right. Don't justify, yes, it's great for marketing, we need --

QUEST: Which it is, which it is, and South Africa has a very vibrant tourism industry and needs to get the message out.

ORDERSON: Not right now, Richard. Maybe in a year's time, just not right now. We have blackouts. We have communities that cannot watch the State of

the Nation tonight because there is no power. There are women that cannot walk on the street because it's too dark.

So no, unacceptable. The deal is going to be canned. It's not happening.

QUEST: And I thank you for coming and talking to us this evening. Very kind of you. Excellent. Thank you.

Now, the issue, of course, of the loadshedding.

The South African opposition leader spoke to me earlier in the week. It is worth pointing out, we did invite just about anyone from the South African

government to come and talk to me and they all basically said no.

So we spoke to the opposition leader, who now has to make the point that the Democratic Alliance, which is in government in this part of the country

is a viable alternative.


JOHN STEENHUISEN, OPPOSITION LEADER, SOUTH AFRICAN PARLIAMENT: Absolutely. And it's probably the single biggest disaster for our economy.

It's the single biggest disaster for our drive to attract investment into South Africa and it is the single biggest killer of jobs here in the


QUEST: Do you have any real evidence that investment has been put off as a result?

STEENHUISEN: Absolutely. There have been a number of motor manufacturers who've curtailed their expansion plans, because they are concerned about

the certainty of supply. There have been a number of existing international investors that have moved out of the country, unable to keep their

factories going stifled by a terrible visa regime. And of course, now hampered by government red tape as well.

QUEST: But this didn't happen overnight.


QUEST: I mean, this sort of electricity issue didn't occur. So what went wrong?

STEENHUISEN: So the warnings were there in 2007. Eskom itself published documentation saying that around about 2015, if there wasn't a massive

reinvestment in power stations, in the transmission services and the supply services, then we would start at a crisis point where blackouts would

become an eventuality and they got the date spot on.


QUEST: But the ability of your party to capitalize on this has been somewhat limited.

STEENHUISEN: Yes, but I mean, I don't think it's been as bad as it has gotten in the last three years, and if one looks at the last round of local

government elections, the ANC fell below 50 percent at the national level, for the first time and post '94 South Africa. They lost control of large

urban centers around the country, and their supporters continued to decline in bi-elections since then.

QUEST: But your party still is not appealing to the lower to middle class Black voters in the numbers you need, though, and even less so in rural

parts. Isn't that your big problem?

STEENHUISEN: Well, it has been a problem. But as I said, things are shifting quite significantly. In rural Transkei, we won wards off the ANC

in the Eastern Cape. In places like Butterworth a few months ago, a really rural town, we were able to increase our support by 300 percent. The same

in places like Langa here in Cape Town.

So the more we drive issues that matter to these ordinary South Africans, things like spiraling inflation, things like better service delivery,

things like ensuring better schools, it's starting to shift voters' perceptions and voting patterns significantly.

QUEST: This is sort of the toughest aspect of it that, can the DA win with a White leader?

STEENHUISEN: Of course, it can just as Rishi Sunak can win as an Asian leader, and just as Barack Obama can win as a Black leader in countries

where the ethnic groups are not necessarily the majority.

I think more and more South Africans are looking absolutely towards who is going to deliver services, who is going to keep the lights on. They are

less concerned about the color of the person doing it.

QUEST: I guess we won't know until you're replaced.

STEENHUISEN: Exactly. But we've been down this road before. We've had a Black leader in the party, and it was one of our worst election results. So

this myth that you get Black votes with a Black leader is not borne out by the facts and the 2019 election proved that quite substantially.

QUEST: South Africa has managed to put itself into a very difficult position with Russia and Ukraine at the moment. Now, I would expect you to

say you don't support the government's position to do military exercises with Russia, but don't they have a point, the government, better to be

friends with all?

STEENHUISEN: Well, they're not friends with all and they are cloaking their treachery in the cloud of neutrality. There is nothing neutral about

this government's position, they are in the Russian camp. On the night of the invasion, our Defense Minister was at the Russian Embassy, at a

cocktail party.

We're doing these maneuvers. We refuse to condemn what Russia has been doing. It's not about being friends with both sides. This government has

fundamentally taken a side and this is with Russia.

QUEST: But if you were the boss, if you're the President, how would you now negotiate that exact position of not wanting to offend Russia, but at

the same time, wanting to keep the Western side?

STEENHUISEN: Well, I wouldn't be trying to play the two against each other. I would go back to my foundational values contained in my own

country's Constitution around things like sovereignty and territorial independence and I would be using those values to guard the country's



QUEST: So that's the leader of the opposition. And again, let me just reiterate, we did invite not only the President, the Finance Minister, and

everybody else in between and government to come on the program tonight. They politely declined.

I'm still here tomorrow. I'm still here tomorrow and on Saturday morning. If they would like to have a chat, we will always broadcast the views of

government when they speak to us.

The reason we are here, of course, is for "Quest's World of Wonder," and there are going to be plenty of beautiful things to look at, but you can't

ignore for the moment the issues of the loadshedding and its economic impact.

The South African Central Bank itself says it is costing two full percentage points in GDP growth, around 900 million South African rands a


Standard Bank is still optimistic and says self-generation could reduce the blackouts.

Sim Tshabalala is the CEO of Standard, he joins me now down the line from Johannesburg.

Sir, good to see you.

Firstly, what we're before we get to the nitty-gritty of your optimism, what did you make of the State of the Nation tonight? Was there enough in

there for you to be able to say the investment environment here remains good?

SIM TSHABALALA, CEO, STANDARD BANK: So first of all, Richard, always a real privilege to be talking to you. You remember the words of Henry

Wadsworth Longfellow, a single conversation across the table with a wise man is better than years of mere study of books.


TSHABALALA: So it's always fantastic to chat to you.

As far as the President's speech this afternoon, I have to say to you, it left me with a thought that there are three components to whether it be a

country, a sovereign, a business, or a family, indeed, you need a strategy. And the analogy here would be the strategy and the plan of the SONA, what

we heard this evening, then you divide people and the structure, the Cabinet, and then you need to allocate financial resources, the budget

speech, which is going to happen in due course.

As far as the strategy and the speech goes, yes, it was a great speech. You know, you could compare it to that of the monasteries, it gave a good

picture of what's happening in the South African body politic, and it listed the imperatives of the day. So yes, I would be happy with the


QUEST: Okay, so with that in mind, what are -- your clients are telling you one thing about the situation, what are the investors say at the

moment? Because the thing I always find about regardless of a loadshedding or whatever, is that the opportunities, the resources, the agriculture,

it's all still here. So are they still finding it attractive or looking elsewhere?

TSHABALALA: Richard, one has to preface the answer by making the same point as you made in the introductory remarks that economists calculate the

impact of the crimp in electricity to be roughly 1.7 percentage points of GDP, wipeout -- 1.7 percent, I mean, it's unacceptable. It's outrageous in


We could be growing as fast as some of our neighbors. And yet, we've got this massive install base, a large economy of over $400 billion, but we are

lag off and we actually a bit contributed to the slowdown in African GDP growth. So yes, the electricity issue is huge.

However, one has to look at the data. You know, Richard, in God we trust everybody else, please provide us with data. The data tells us that since

September last year, the Johannesburg Stock Exchange has grown by 20 percent. A large proportion of our corporate customers are growing headline

earnings in double digits, their return on equity is significantly higher than the cost of equity.

Businesses are making flat. There are businesses that are failing, they are struggling, but let me say this, there are businesses that are succeeding

as well. So it's a tale of two cities in that sense, Richard. Thank you.

QUEST: And that is the fascinating part, isn't it? For a bank like your own, the domestic environment, maybe one thing, the opportunities are

great. And it is a fantastic place to visit, and I often wonder how hard- nosed bankers like you, sir, square that circle.

TSHABALALA: Richard, we follow the facts. We're emotional beings, but we follow the facts. And as I said to you, what are the facts? GDP growth, at

roughly two percent in 2022, at roughly 1.3 percent in 2023, but our job is to seek out those opportunities for growth.

We are seeking those out as our portfolio investors, my example of the JSE as our FTI investors. There are many corporates. I just heard the leader of

the opposition talking about motor manufacturers that are no longer investing, well, there are some there are who see the opportunity, who see

the excitement in being part of this growth story. We're seeing the relationship between this country and the rest of the continent.

We are seeing opportunities in the Africa free trade area, who accept that we are a part of a fantastic and fast-growing neighborhood.

QUEST: All right, sir, I'm grateful. Thank you for joining us from Johannesburg. I promise you next time we're in South Africa, we will come

your way and we'll interlope into your office and do the interview there. I'm grateful to you, sir, thank you.

And as QUEST MEANS BUSINESS continues, as Russia's invasion nears the one- year anniversary, President Zelenskyy continues his visit in Europe. He wants heavier weapons, especially fighter jets, and there may be movement

with some EU countries agreeing.

Eleni will be after the break. You will the news headlines and the details.


Good evening from South Africa.



GIOKOS: I'm Eleni Giokos and there's more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS in a moment when we'll be live in Brussels, where Ukrainian President Volodymyr

Zelenskyy is trying to drum up more military support from European allies. And Richard will be speaking to entrepreneurs in Cape Town about keeping

the lights on when the power goes out, before that the headlines this hour. (Inaudible) officials say a suspected Chinese spy balloon was capable of

monitoring communications. The FBI is still analyzing remnants of the balloon which was shot down Saturday. The State Department says China has

flown high altitude balloons over five continents.

The activist investor Nelson Peltz is dropping his bid for a seat on Disney's Board. CEO Bob Iger said yesterday that Disney will restructure

and cut costs by $5 billion after that announcement. Peltzer's spokesman told CNN that the proxy fight was now over. Legendary songwriter Burt

Bacharach has died at age 94. Bacharach composed some of the 20th century's biggest pop songs, including "Raindrops Keep Falling In My Head."

His music spanned genres from country to rhythm and blues and won him six Grammy's and three Oscars.

GIOKOS: Ukraine's President Zelenskyy says some European countries are ready to provide Kyiv military aircraft. There was no media confirmation

from any EU nations. Zelenskyy made the comments in Brussels during a tour of European capitals. He's after fighter jets, long range missiles and

armored vehicles from western allies as Ukraine prepares for an expected Russian offensive. Here's a little of what he said.



UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY TRANSLATED: I have been very inspired by your statements that Europe will be with us until our victory.

I've heard it from a number of the European leaders and I'm very grateful to them for this. I've heard by the readiness to give us the necessary

weapons and support including their aircrafts.


GIOKOS: Nic Robertson is in Brussels for us. Nic, him saying that some countries could be ready to assist with military aircraft. I want you to

take me through what could potentially be discussed behind closed doors, not made public just yet, but the insinuation is absolutely there.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is and it's kind of forward leaning -- leaning statement for all that we have publicly, what we

have publicly is a commitment from the UK to train fighter pilots. President Zelenskyy has come here to Europe with the express intention of

energizing that discussion that began a few weeks ago, calling for fighter aircraft to be the next thing that Ukraine needs. And when he was asked

about it, he -- he hinted that thre was progress but it was behind closed doors, that he wasn't ready to discuss it and I think in the margins what

we're understanding is that while fighter jets haven't been removed from the agenda. This is according to the British, according to the Dutch.

There isn't yet a united commitment to put them on the agenda and remembering that that what it took with tanks, that Britain went first.

Then after a lot of pressure, the United States put its tanks on the table, then Germany followed suit and all the countries that Germany had sold it's

Leopard 2 tanks did the same. It sort of feels as if we're in the same, sort of, diplomatic space although not so far advanced along it. There is

some reticence for supplying fighter jets and what I understand from defense officials is that they don't really think that fighter jets are the

right thing yet for Ukraine, when it doesn't have it's air defenses fully securing it's airspace.

It would be potentially, you know, they could face a loss of these aircraft in the skies.

So President Zelenskyy, I think, seems -- seems happy and reassured that he's got the support that he came for, that he's got the conversation

going. He's got the ball rolling in his direction. He's got a commitment from the UK firmly. He says on longer range rockets, and that was very

important for him, has been for some time actually.

GIOKOS: Nic Robertson, always good to see you. Thank you so much. All right, running a business in South Africa has it's challenges. Renowned

businessman Michael Jordaan tells Richard how some entrepreneurs are making a way for themselves, despite the government he says should be doing more.





RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST OF QUEST FOR BUSINESS: Now you remember I was telling you about how you can find out when the lights are

going to go off. These marvelous apps, so here's, I'm in Table Mountain Area 7. If I select that, I can tell you that the current load shed,

shedding is at stage 4 for this area, which means that the lights went off today between midnight and 2:30, 8:00 and 10:30, 4:00 and 6:30. All that

is very clever the way it actually tells you everything. Tomorrow, I'm told, it will be stage 2, which means we will only have one power cut at

5:00 and 8 o'clock in the morning or something.

Anyway, it tells you what you need to know. I tweeted about this as soon as I arrived. I wasn't thinking too carefully after a 24 hour journey. I

tweeted about this, and this was the wonderful replies I got. Welcome to our world. Experiencing it first hand. Welcome to South Africa, because

wherever you go there is always a very, warm welcome. The everyday impact to everyday life. Michael Jordaan is the former CEO of the First National

Bank of South Africa.

He's now a tech entrepreneur and he's the founder of Bank Zero. He also has the most magnificent winery and vineyard in the Stellenbosch Region,

which we visited. And I thoroughly enjoyed sitting on the lawn with the dogs, talking about the economy. Michael Jordaan who knows a thing or two

about entrepreneurships thinks that self-help, entrepreneurship and a can- do spirit it really what's needed.


MICHAEL JORDAAN, FORMER CEO OF FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF SOUTH AFRICA: We have euphemistic equaled load shedding, which is effective if we don't have

a constant power supply. It's, of course, extremely negative, that's something of the 2nd industrial revolution when we should be aiming at the

4th industrial revolution. So all this optimism can't just be ungrounded. You have to have reasons why you are positive. I am positive and despite

all of that, because I've surrounded myself with entrepreneurs who want to make the world better and are putting their time and their capital down.

They've got skin in the game and they are actually succeeding.

QUEST: How can you entice investment in this country for 4th generation industrial revolution stuff? When you basically can't promise somebody,

I'm going to ask -- I'm going to open that plant, you can't even promise them 24 hour power.

JORDAAN: Look at -- it's very negative and the investors sentiment is very negative. Now somebody who -- who -- who invests in the markets, that

isn't always all bad because their's always opportunities. That's the first point I'd make but the thing that excites me most is the advent of new

technologies. So our power -- power problems in South Africa is because of the failure of large coal, old coal furnaces, but this is a sunny country.

We also have a lot of wind, and the possibility now to generate solar power not only is it green but it's at a lower cost at what coal can generate.

So there's reason for optimism, it just requires investment.

QUEST: You talk about the new entrepreneurs. The real risk for South Africa is you have these new entrepreneurs who get a degree of success and

then go overseas. They migrate and then that -- the country doesn't benefit. How do you prevent that?

JORDAAN: I don't think you can. I think we live in a flat world. I mean, one of my kindergarten mates, he won't remember me but I remember him.

He's called Elon Musk. He's now the wealthiest man in the world because he has immigrated. That type of thing is going to happen all over the world,

but the reverse two his happening which is that the world is flatter. The business ideas -- the business models and technologies come back to us. So

the solar that I'm talking about, this isn't I feel it is necessary to develop here in South Africa, but the application of solar power, bringing

power at a lower cost is hugely beneficial to the economy.

QUEST: And yet, do you sometimes feel there isn't a governmental infrastructure that supports that level of entrepreneurialism. A

governmental structure that is still stuck fighting old battles.


JORDAAN: Unfortunately that is exactly right and if you depend on government too much in South Africa, you are bound to be disappointed,

unfortunately I'm saying that. Once again the flip side out of that is that if you are active, if you're pro-active. If you know you've got to

look after yourself, generate your own power for example and you take agency and that can be an incredibly transformative force.

QUEST: There is a phrase. A (inaudible). A farmer has a plan.

JORDAAN: That's exactly right.

QUEST: Which seems to be epitome of -- if you want to be successful in this country at the moment. You have to do it on your own.

JORDAAN: That's the ethos. I don't do it because of government, do it despite government and I'm positive that the market. That the

entrepreneurs, that the businesses all solving the problems on their own. It's not just in power but many other places where there's private

hospitals, private security, private education.

QUEST: I don't deny what you're saying, but you do -- you do end up with a huge gap growing between those can afford to go on their own, provide their

own power, have the generators and those who have to rely on government services that are substandard, inefficient or incompetent.

JORDAAN: I take that risk. Once again, I think the positive twist on that is that if government only has to sort out a smaller part of the

population. The ones that are reliant on them for once again education, schooling and security, in the (inaudible) government is this.

QUEST: Back to technology, what tech do you like?

JORDAAN: Everything from 3D printing to what's happening in biotech now at the moment. We spoke about energy. I've been able to launch a -- a start

a Bank -- Bank Zero with a lot of co-founders at the fraction of the cost of what it would cost an incumbent bank. So I think technology's inherit

incredibly exciting, makes the world better, reduces inflation, makes us all more productive and the benefits aren't just in Silicon Valley, here in

Africa too.

QUEST: And then you have a vineyard and a winery. So which bit of the equation does this fall into.

JORDAAN: No, guilty as charged. A vineyard makes no sense from an ROE perspective if you're talking about return on equity but as our --my --my

chairman at the bank that I used to work at said, it's all about ROE, which is return on ego. And when that ego encompasses giving something for the

next generation, having a family project, bring something meaningful, something tangible in nature. It gives a whole lot of joy. It just makes

no financial sense.


QUEST: Michael Jordaan, ROE, return on ego. It was absolutely glorious there. The -- we talked a lot about this, that and the other of -- of --

of load shedding and all of that but the beauty in this country is really quite undeniable. And as is the a couple of photographs I've taken on my

journey, they'll be plenty more in world of wonder. That was this evening -- that was this evening's sunset just over to the left of my shoulder.

That of course is from the top of Table Mountain. It doesn't really get much better than that and that's me and Brody, which is the dog in the

sidecar that puts his head on your shoulder in a loving, delightful way.

Don't forget to have your opinion and your thoughts as well, because I know you'll have some. The email address and it really does come straight

through to my phone. It's My next guest joined us during the pandemic crisis and was one of our voices of the crisis. You'll

be well aware the promise I make when I'm in your city. I will come back to see you, whether you like or not. We are back and now Vivian Kleynhans

is running Seven Sisters Vineyards and you'll be with us after the break to tell us more. Thank you. (Inaudible).




QUEST: Welcome back. For those who know Cape Town well and they're, sort of, trying to position where we are, the mountain's over there. The

water's over there, we're actually on the roof of the Tower's Hotel, right downtown where, of course, there was all the noise and fury from the

demonstrators and the protestors and the state of the nation. But it's the Tower's Hotel and we're on the roof with a glorious view, tourism in South

Africa has never looked brighter. If you think it hasn't fully recovered from the pandemic days, well it is expected to grow by nearly 8 percent

annually. So putting the tourism back and getting the numbers up and the airlift returned is a key priority. I spoke to one of the vineyard owners

in March 2020. This was at the height of the crisis. Vivian was one of our voices of the crisis. Back then she said this.


VIVIAN KLEYNHANS, CEO AND FOUNDER OF SEVEN SISTERS VINEYARD: It is so scary and I'm not sure where this is going to end. Gates are closed. Doors

are closed. Nobody obviously, we're in lockdown and yes, we already been in surviving mode.


QUEST: Vivian's with me now. I promised I was going to come and I did and visit you. How's it going now? How's it going?

KLEYNHANS: It's going well thank you.

QUEST: Business back. Numbers back. Sales back. Tourists visiting.

KLEYNHANS: Not entirely. It's going to take a while to get there. We are still putting out fires that COVID.

QUEST: In what way, I mean, because I was in the Stellenbosch Region, I should have popped in actually, and I was in the Stellenbosch Region and I

can definitely feel an enthusiasm of things getting better.

KLEYNHANS: Of course, from the -- from the pandemic, but remember we are now in another crisis. Almost like the pandemic, the load shedding and the

electricity and we need power for the pumps to irrigate, for -- for the wineries.

QUEST: So you really have a choice don't you. I mean, you have to do these things, so you have to buy generators and then you have to start buying

diesel or other fuels.

KLEYHANS: Exactly that.

QUEST: Or spend a lot of money on solar.

KLEYHANS: Yes and that is why we need the buyers to buy the wines, so that we can buy the solar systems. Because we cannot depend on government


QUEST: The crop this year from what I saw is going to be very good, isn't it? How's your crop looking?

KLEYHANS: Absolutely good. Yes.

QUEST: And, you've only gotten, sort of, taken off of -- I can't say only. It's hard work isn't it. What's your best wine?

KLEYHANS: Chardonnay.

QUEST: Chardonnay.


QUEST: And will you make a -- a -- a great deal of Chardonnay this year?

KLEYHANS: Oh, we'll definitely.

QUEST: Selling it in bulk or in high ends or --

KLEYHANS: No in high end. We have high end brand called Brutus which is (inaudible) surname and maiden name and the Seven Sisters is the -- not the

bulk but premium --

QUEST: For the others.

KLEYHANS: For the others.

QUEST: For the others.

KLEYHANS: For the world. For the world.

QUEST: For the world, that's a good one. Are you finding it difficult to export the stuff these days? Because I know a lot of countries, it's

become a little more difficult. It's more restrictions, more difficulties or are you finding it OK?

KLEYHANS: I'm finding it OK. There was a little bit of problems at the ports not so long ago, but luckily our wines were already gone when that

happened and I was happy and I smiled.

QUEST: Well you seemed to have forgotten something.

KLEYHANS: Yes. What is that?

QUEST: The bottle of wine.

KLEYHANS: Oh, I can sure you can see it on the screen now.


QUEST: She knew we wouldn't be eating the profits or drinking the profits. Good to see you.

KLEYHANS: Thank you.

QUEST: I'm really glad. Congratulations on success and staying in business and thriving. Thank you very much.

KLEYHANS: Thank you Richard.

QUEST: Thank you. Thank you very much. Now Eleni is -- this has been very weird for you Eleni, watching here in your country and trying to make

sense of it all.

GIOKOS: It is absolutely peculiar. Look, I was watching the State of the Nation Address and I was just like, what is going on? It was like watching

unruly kids in parliament and I know it was expected but it still feels surreal and absolutely surreal that you're there, and finally you're

getting to experience something that I've been reporting on, with you, load shedding. It is debilitating and I'm glad you get to see it.

QUEST: We are here enjoying it. The only thing missing is you. Thank you for -- for (inaudible) report. By the way, I'll see you next week in Dubai

because that's where I'm going from here, while we're doing the program from Dubai. These are busy days Eleni. I'm grateful. We will take a

profitable moment, only after this break. QUEST MEANS BUSINESS continues.


QUEST: Tonight's profitable moment from Cape Town. It's very tricky to visit a place and then realize you're commenting on the wallpaper where the

place you're visiting. The situation here is one level pretty desperate when it comes to power, but on the other level it seems to be fine. Sun

shining. The grapes are growing. The wine's being drunk. One of the crucial things about the South African people is this idea a boer maak n

plan which basically means, a farmer has a plan and that's the biggest problem, because everybody here is working around it. Everybody has a

plan. Everybody has either got an inverter or a generator or goes around to Auntie Bessie's for dinner or they get the food early and they do this

that or the other.

Everybody, a boer maak n plan, has a plan and as a result of that they're living with the situation but at the same time, there doesn't sometimes to

me anyway, feel like where's the sense of outrage? Maybe it's because everybody's got a plan. Those who can afford it are inverting and

generating their own power, solar panels and the others well they're making do. But you can't run an economy losing 900 million czar a day with 2

percent of GDP and you can't let that continue forever. And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for this Thursday night, I'm Richard Quest in Cape Town

whenever you're up to (Inaudible) I hope it's profitable. I'll be in Dubai next.