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Quest Means Business

Rising Rates Renew Fears Of Recession; Late OceanGate's Operations Under Scrutiny; Biden, Modi Meet With Tech Leaders At White House; President Obama Weighs In On Titan Sub; National Elections Saturday In Sierra Leone; Beijing Suffers From 41 Degrees Celsius Heat Wave. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired June 23, 2023 - 15:00   ET



RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: End of the week on a Friday and the red is all over the place, down 258, nearly -- over three-quarters of a

percent, but it has been a solid lower day on the market and we will get to the reasons why in just a moment. They are important and they're long


The main events again related to all of this: Britain's mounting mortgage crisis. Top lenders agreeing to a one-year grace period on repossessions,

that's the best answer they can come up to as mortgage rates go even higher.

Investigators are scouring the ocean floor. They're looking for those clues about why the sub imploded.

And on the start of the first summer weekend in New York, we envision the playground city of the future. The director of MIT's Senseable City Lab is

with me.

Live in New York. It's Friday, it's June the 23rd. I'm Richard Quest, and on a Friday as always, I mean business.

Good evening, we showed you the red of the market and the reason, reality is setting in. Core inflation is not coming down as fast as had been hoped

and it appears interest rates will need to go higher and stay there longer to squeeze out inflation.

Central bankers now seem willing to risk recession much greater than before to bring prices back under control. And all three of the major indices are

down. The NASDAQ will snap an eight-week winning streak for doing it. The Dow is stuck in the red all day. It's off over 280 points and it's on a

downward trajectory. I wouldn't expect it to completely fall out of bed between now and the top of the hour, but you never know.

The bad news in a sense in terms of inflation and lenders and interest rates is everywhere. In the UK, the government and lenders have just

announced steps to protect homeowners from the mortgage crisis. It follows Thursday's rate increase by the Bank of England.

Wherever we look business is stalling. The Eurozone Purchasing Managers Index is as good a gauge as any. It sank in June to a five-month low, 50 as

the market separates growth from contraction.

The JPMorgan Chase analysts have summed it up quite beautifully. They say Central Banks have tempered the pace of tightening in pursuit of a soft

landing. However, they quote in their report this morning: "Hopes for a painless slide in inflation back to target are likely to be dashed,

requiring policy to turn sufficiently restrictive, to break the back of the expansion. Broad-based developed marketing tightening points to a more

synchronized global downturn sometime next year."

Rana is with me, our global economic analyst and associate editor of "The Financial Times" in New York. Do you agree with JPMorgan?

RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: Well, yes. We are going to need more inflation -- sorry, interest rate hikes to get inflation under

control, but I mean, what I don't agree with is why are we here to begin with?

You know, Richard, you and I, in any number of conversations in the last decade, have said look, at some point, the piper is going to need to be

paid, right? And I wish that 15 years ago, we would have raised interest rates, created more space following the great financial crisis. We got a

pandemic, we got more inflation. We always knew we were going to get here at some stage and we would have to have proper hikes to curb inflation.

QUEST: Okay, so we've had 18 months or so of hikes, or at least in some cases, a good year or so of hikes. And we thought things were -- the

numbers are showing that core inflation is not coming down.

BoE did half a point. Powell basically said we're doing more. Do they have to push the economy just about and possibly into recession to squeeze

inflation to target?

FOROOHAR: I fear that the answer to that is yes and let us step back for a minute and caveat all of this. I know it doesn't feel good, but by saying

recessions are natural, they happen. The problem is that when you stretch out the business cycle the way we have, I mean most central banks have

around the world at least in developed countries for some time, they are worse when they come.

You know if you wait longer to take the pain, the pain tends to be worse.


And we're really in a very unprecedented period where we've had years of easy money. We've had a pandemic and got more fiscal stimulus. We've got a

lot of strange, you know, economic vectors, geopolitics are in flux, energy is in flux.

So, it is a tricky time. It would be hard for me to imagine a soft landing at this point.

QUEST: Okay, so now let's take Andrew Bailey at the BoE in London. He has been roundly criticized as having lost the plot, and that he -- you know,

his policy analysis, or the BoE's policy analysis was wrong, that they got it wrong in terms -- even though they started earlier and you could say the

same about Jay Powell, he started raising rates a year too late.

But did they not move fast enough? I mean, forget the original sin of not starting early enough. Should they have literally stomped on the brakes?

FOROOHAR: That's a trickier question because I think if you're looking at just the last couple of years, the pandemic threw a spammer on everything.

If we were dealing with a normal global economy where we hadn't had a pandemic, we hadn't had war in Ukraine, I would have said -- and we saw

these kinds of inflation dynamics, I would say, yes, absolutely, step on the brake faster.

But there was a lot going on. You had different regions moving out of sync with one another. So you know, I get it. I don't think anybody was trying,

you know, to be cowardly. But it's easier, frankly, to not pull away the punchbowl. Nobody wants to be the central banker that causes a recession,

let's face it.

QUEST: The market has rallied quite considerably. I mean, we even talked about that at the start of a new bull market. I'm guessing that either

sideways, during this next period, or downwards.

FOROOHAR: I'm going to say both and I'm going to say that the US may still despite, you know, some dips and maybe some flattening, may still be

more robust than certainly than Europe and Asia.

I just think the fundamentals of consumer spending are better in the US. I think the labor market is hotter in the US. People do have money to spend.

I think Europe is in a tough spot and Britain, oh, very tough spot.

QUEST: But hang on, hang on. The contradictory part of that is that if consumer spending in the US is stronger, and the labor market is more

robust, et cetera et cetera, which you've just said, then they're going to have -- what I'm trying to say is they're going to have to reverse those

situations, or they can't get inflation down.

If you continue with strong consumer spending, you end up not getting inflation down.

FOROOHAR: But you've got two contradictory impulses here in terms of - - if you're asking about the equity market, yes, they're going to probably have to raise rates, the stocks don't like that; at the same time, the US I

think will still be the prettiest house on the ugly block. I've said that a number of times. It is still true. So I think it's going to do better than

other markets.

QUEST: Have a lovely weekend. It's not going to be nice weather, but have a lovely weekend anyway. Thank you.

Okay, a new mission is underway scouring the ocean floor for debris of the Titan. Investigators are now really working out why the submersible

imploded. All five people on board were killed.

The tragedy is putting the operator's safety procedures under the microscope. The editor-in-chief of "Travel Weekly" was set to go on a dive

in the vessel, ultimately did not.

Arnie Weissmann said, before that, he got some concerning information from Stockton Rush, the CEO of OceanGate who died in the recent events.


ARNIE WEISSMANN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "TRAVEL WEEKLY": One night, we went on to the stern of the ship and just sat and talked and he told me sort of his

life story and part of that was that when he got the carbon fiber from Boeing and he said this was material that had originally been planned for

aircraft use, for building airplanes, but that it had passed a date that it could be used for that.

And so his implication was, they had stuff they wanted to get rid of, but it was past its sell by date.


QUEST: Those criticism of OceanGate and its leader grows. The company's co-founder has cautioned against a rush to judgment. CNN's Gabe Cohen with

this report.


GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Former OceanGate CEO, Stockton Rush and his ill-fated Titan submersible facing intense scrutiny.

Rush, who perished in the Titan had a reputation as a visionary, but also as a self-proclaimed rule breaker.

STOCKTON RUSH, CEO, OCEANGATE EXPEDITION: I think it was General MacArthur who said, you're remembered for the rules you break. And you

know, I broken some rules to make this. I think I've broken them with logic and good engineering behind me.


COHEN (voice over): The co-founder of OceanGate, Guillermo Sohnlein says he had complete faith in Rush and would have gone on the Titanic expedition

himself if he'd had the chance.

GUILLERMO SOHNLEIN, CO-FOUNDER, OCEANGATE EXPEDITION: There is always a risk of catastrophic implosion. It's something that we know about, it is

something that we plan for, plan against and it's just a known risk.

COHEN (voice over): DJ Virnig who is a subcontractor for OceanGate says Rush's experimental design passed testing for the pressures that would be

found at Titanic's depth.

DOUG "DJ" VIRNIG, SUBCONTRACTOR: Then the question is, well, if you do that repeatedly, then what happens?

So these are the sorts of questions that if you have a long research and development program, you start answering, but if you really are pushing the

envelope, there is no time to. You know, you're answering those questions in real time.

COHEN (voice over): Will Kohnen who chairs the submarine committee of the Marine Technology Society says he wrote to Rush concerned OceanGate wasn't

following the same safety standards as other vessels.

In his 2018 letter first obtained by "The New York Times," Kohnen warned Rush about what he called the company's experimental approach that could

have serious consequences.

CNN has previously reported that to former OceanGate employees who were not engineers, separately raised safety concerns years ago about the hull of

the Titan sub. The hull was made of carbon fiber composite, the type of material used in spacecraft.

Filmmaker, James Cameron, who has made more than 30 dives to the wreckage of the Titanic himself says the danger of using carbon fiber composite is

known within the engineering community.

JAMES CAMERON, DIRECTOR, "TITANIC": We always understood that this was the wrong material for submersible hulls, because with each pressure cycle,

you can have progressive damage. It's quite insidious, and that I think, lulled them into a sense of confidence and led to this tragedy.


QUEST: Mary Schiavo is with us. CNN transportation analyst, former inspector general at the US Transportation Department.

Mary, how -- we will get to what might happen and what sort of investigations, but it is an international waters. Anybody really, you

know, who wants to go and kill themselves in something like that, how do you regulate to prevent somebody going out there doing this?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: Boy, that is the question that will be on a lot of people's minds and you know, hitting the books for the

weeks and months to come.

So in international waters, you're right. I mean, maritime law, just like in aviation law, you look to where the vessel is flagged. In other words,

what country did they intend the laws to apply. And so in this case, it has already come out that Canada was involved, the Bahamas, it was actually

flagged in the Bahamas. So already, you've got two countries' laws. There actually is a law for international waters and there is an act called the

Death on the High Seas Act.

But then you go back to where was this product engineered, designed, et cetera and the laws of that country will apply, because if you're making a

vessel intended to be used by passengers, then the laws of that country will apply.

So you have a patchwork quilt of laws, and then you get the ultimate "aha" and that is passengers can be asked in this case, we're asked to sign a

waiver or release of liability, and in those documents, it can contain what is called a Forum Selection Clause.

So the very document the passenger signs may say which law applies and the courts enforce that.

QUEST: Okay. Now, if we take that sort of point by point, the reality is also, of course, there has to be a very large bill for -- I mean,

unfortunately, this case had an unsuccessful search, but in any of these cases, the Coast Guard bill and the multiple assets that are deployed,

somebody has to pay for that, too.

SCHIAVO: Yes, and the law actually, and it's -- you know, it's not clear cut, but the law actually provides that for search, rescue and recovery,

you can seek payment from the entity that puts you in a rescue position. In other words, danger invites rescue, and they can seek to have those costs

recovered and recouped.

QUEST: So, to the germane point in a sense, the owner of -- the founder of the company said famously, innovation is the enemy of progress. Now,

even James Cameron admitted that that principle is true. Regulation is the enemy of innovation.

But my point here is, Cameron also said, yes, but his vessel, Cameron's vessel, only took him and scientists down. Here, they were selling seats

and they were doing public transportation in a sense.


SCHIAVO: That's a huge distinction and a very important one. So when you are selling passage to a passenger, additional laws can apply, both

maritime laws and other laws of the country can apply to make a difference, and then remember also about innovation.

Composite structures have been around for twenty, thirty years and there's an awful lot known about them. The enemy of composites is water and damage,

and it is very difficult to get the composite back to its original condition once it has become -- for want of a better word -- waterlogged.

Water does damage to composite and that has been known for 30 years. So I think in the end, you will come down to a situation where it really wasn't

innovation, there were known risks with composites and that's the kind of thing if it's egregious negligence, which means negligence beyond the usual

kind, you probably cannot have the passengers waive that away.

So it'll be a very interesting a sorting of laws and responsibilities going forward.

QUEST: Mary, it is excellent to have you to give us the perspective which is needed. Thank you so much, Mary Schiavo.

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

QUEST: Coming up after the break, top tech CEOs flocked to the White House, as India and the USA strengthen economic times.


QUEST: President Biden says America's partnership with India will help define the 21st Century. He was speaking with the Indian prime minister as

they met tech leaders from both countries.

There, included the heads of Apple, Google, Microsoft, and the Mahindra Group and Reliance Industries as you see over there. The US president said

that the meeting was a watershed moment for the US and India's business ties.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And together, we are looking to private and public partners to make this possible, including launching a

new program between India and America, American astronauts, Indian astronauts, entrepreneurs, scientists, students -- simply put, our

countries are taking innovation and cooperation to a new level.


QUEST: Jamie Diamond is at the White House.

It's an interesting visit this, because the subtext is with India, you know, first of all problems with Russia over Ukraine and secondly, China

and you know, who is going to be the favored party towards India? And they are dressing it all up with business.



I mean look, this is a visit that is certainly multifaceted. It is clearly a decision by the president and by this White House to put the strategic

interests of the United States as they see them with India, over those concerns about human rights and democracy backsliding in India and that is

because they view this partnership as important on so many different levels, not only countering China, but also in terms of the US' economic

interests. And as to the meeting today, advancing a technology and artificial intelligence in partnership with India.

The US views India as being a significant provider of some of the core components that they need to move forward, some of the -- as a source of

producer -- a producer of source materials, but also, of course, for the technical expertise of the workforce that exists in India.

And so what you saw today with that meeting of US and Indian CEOs, including some of the most prominent American tech CEOs including Sam

Altman, the CEO of OpenAI; Sundar Pichai, the CEO of Google; the CEO of Microsoft, as well, all of this was focused on the idea of trying to expand

technological advances by working with the two countries trying to break down some of the regulatory barriers that exist in each country that may be

hindering some of the cooperation between the two countries.

So it is certainly a central facet of this. We saw a number of business agreements, including an -- sorry, go ahead -- Richard.

QUEST: Yes, you were saying just a bit -- following on from that point that you -- that point you were making, of course, India turned around and

says, yes, well, this is all very nice. Thank you very much. But we have real problems.

We have, for example, immigration problems with the United States. We have visa problems, H1-B2 visa issues with United States. So how much are they

going to get in or are they getting into the nitty-gritty in a sense, rather than actually just the big picture, it is all rosy in the garden?

DIAMOND: Well, to that point, I mean, I haven't heard anything specific on immigration in terms of any deliverables there, but there are a number

of deliverables in terms of specific deals.

There was this $3 billion deal to sell India some drones, for example. There is also this deal with Micron, a US semiconductor manufacturer to

open a multibillion dollar plant in India. So there are some specific deliverables.

In terms of what the US is focusing on, it is trying to wean India off of its reliance on Russian weaponry. It's trying to see where the US and India

can cooperate on the shared challenge that they face vis-a-vis China. And India, of course, is looking to be a bigger player in the global economy.

They are looking to have a more significant and more level partnership with the United States and that is where that technology component comes in as

we saw today.

QUEST: Jeremy, thank you, at the White House. Grateful for you, sir.

Today is the start of Pride weekend here in New York City. It is the largest LGBT festival, if you will, in the United States. And now, it would

seem America's culture wars have arrived at Starbucks, just in time as workers at 150 locations are on strike. They're accusing Starbucks of

banning pride decorations.

Starbucks says its support for the LGBT community has not wavered and it encouraged stores to celebrate Pride Month in June.

Other companies have struggled with the same problem, how to be inclusive without risking a conservative backlash. Bud Light and Target scaled back

their pride campaigns after boycotts and threats and their business took a hit anyway, the stock price certainly was lower.

Nathaniel Meyersohn is with me.

That classic line, sir, damned if you do, damned if you don't. They can't get it right. If you go pro-LGBT, you see what happens. This strike at

Starbucks, I'm not sure I fully understand.


So Starbucks, which you know, is thought of as a very progressive company, offers strong benefits to workers. Workers at about 150 of its stores that

have unionized say that the company is not allowing employees to put up pride decorations in some of its stores the pride decorations that the

employees really want. The company disputes this however. They say that they are very LGBTQ friendly, and the employees can put up whatever they

like as long as it adheres to some of these guidelines.

But as you say, these companies cannot please all of their customers. The culture wars right now are just too strong, and so damned if you do and

damned if you don't.

QUEST: Right. So, because in this case, Starbucks is also saying I mean, the problem is it gave local leaders -- local senior staff discretion on

what to do. Now, I'm guessing that if they've removed that discretion and say you shall put pride decorations up, they would have been accused of

railroading over other people's values, I don't know.


MEYERSOHN: I don't think that there is any way necessarily to get this right. I think what's most important for these companies is they have to be

consistent. Taking these positions has to be part of their strategy.

Starbucks has long been known as a progressive company. I think that the brands like Bud Light, which are mass market brands and then they try to

make a move in one direction, that can really turn off people.

But then, you look at a company like Ben & Jerry's, known for being more socially progressive has a long line of these consistent positions. So, I

think if companies are being consistent and they're being authentic, there's really only so much you can do. You are going to antagonize certain


QUEST: Don't you also need to have the strength and depth of pocket to be able to withstand -- I'm thinking Disney now -- Disney Don't Say Gay in


Initially, the whole thing happened because they weren't being consistent, but once they decided to get consistent on the message, but they had the

deep pockets that they could stare it down. Bud Light appears to have run off to the hills.

MEYERSOHN: Yes, Bud Light has really taken a hit from this. They're trying to new -- Bud Light is trying a new advertising campaign. They got

caught after they did an advertisement with trans influencer, Dylan Mulvaney that led to a lot of backlash.

You also think about Target. Target said it was going to remove some of its LGBTQ Pride merchandise because of backlash, because of the criticism on

social media driven by the right. But Target was very quick to do this, and so that attracted a lot of backlash from its pro-LGBTQ supporters. So these

brands are kind of stuck in the middle.

And you have to recognize that this is all taking place among these larger culture wars, this fierce anti-LGBTQ backlash and anti-trans backlash, and

so you may get some backlash for some of these positions, but you're just going to have to see it out in the long run.

QUEST: Thank you, sir. Grateful for your time. Thank you.


A boat carrying hundreds of migrants, another boat has capsized off the coast of Greece. A CNN investigation has cast doubt on official accounts of

what happened.



QUEST: It is Friday evening. It's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. I'm Richard Quest. We have more as we continue. You're going to hear from former U.S.

President Obama about the Titan sub and our focus on that particular tragedy.

And the architect and MIT professor Carlo Ratti about the cities of the future. It's all those moment after the news because here on this network,

the news will always come first.

Ukraine is pushing back on Western analysis, that its long-awaited counteroffensive against Russia is not meeting expectations so far.

Ukrainian official tells CNN the operation has not even begun in earnest saying it's still way too early to assess whether it will succeed.

The people of Sierra Leone vote on Saturday on a new president and Parliament President Julius Maada Bio is expected to win a second term

despite massive unemployment and inflation to see in the price of many foods double or triple in recent years.

Beijing is wanting people to take precautions amid record-setting heatwave. The temperature has soared that to on Thursday to 41 degrees Celsius. About

106 degrees Fahrenheit. It's the hottest day on record going back to 1961.

New and disturbing details are emerging about the migrant boat that capsized off the coast of Greece last week. Pakistan's interior minister

now says 350 Pakistani nationals are on board and the 12 survived. The whole incidence raised very serious questions about the rescue efforts for

migrant ships, especially in light of the Herculean efforts over the week to find the Titan submersible. It's something the former U.S. President

Barack Obama mused on a short while ago.


BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But right now, we have 24-hour coverage. And I understand it of this submarine, the submersible that tragically is right now lost at the bottom of the sea. At the same

time, right here, in - at -- just off the coast of Greece, we had 700 people dead. 700 migrants who were apparently being smuggled into here and

yes, we've made news but it's not dominating in the same way.

And in some ways it's indicative of the degree to which people's life chances have grown so desperate. It's very hard to sustain a democracy when

you have such massive concentrations of wealth.


QUEST: And we're getting these alarming new details on what happened with the Greek coastguards attempted rescue of the ship. CNN's Jomana Karadsheh

has been investigating. Jomana is with me now from London. The circumstances, who said what, who, where, when, why and what -- who did

what at any particular time. They are murky at best, as you've discovered.

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT Yes, Richard. I mean, very clearly, from the early hours after this incident we are talking about

one of the deadliest migrant refugee shipwrecks in the Mediterranean ever. It was very clear that there was more to this incident than just yet

another heartbreaking tragedy in the Mediterranean. Over the past week, we have been investigating this incident through firsthand accounts, testimony

from survivors, from families of survivors, families of victims, as well as activists.

And also using Open Source and MarineTraffic data and putting it all together, Richard. It really raises very serious questions about what

happened and cast doubts over the Greek official version of events.


KARADSHEH (voiceover): The desperate exhausting week for the promise of a new life in Europe. These Pakistanis crammed into a small room by smugglers

in Libya.


Some of them believed to be among the hundreds presumed dead. These last images before they embarked on their ill-fated journey. About 750 refugees

and migrants were packed into this fishing vessel bound for Italy before it capsized off the coast of Greece. Only 104 survived, and with them the

harrowing accounts of what they'd been through.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I can still hear the voice of the woman calling out for help. You would swim and move the floating bodies out

of your way.

KARADSHEH (voiceover): The Syrian survivors spoke to us from Greece, he asked for his identity to be concealed for security reasons. He's another

accounts obtained by CNN not only contradict the official Greek version of events, but point to fault on the part of the Greek Coast Guard.

KARADSHEH: Greek authorities who watched and were communication with the boat for an entire day insist that it was not in distress and refused

assistance. Our investigation tells a very different story.

KARADSHEH (voiceover): Just before 1:00 p.m. on June 13th the boat was first spotted by the E.U.'s Border Patrol agency Frontex, which says it

notified Greek authorities of a "heavily overcrowded fishing vessel." Those on board were in distress, lost at sea with no food or water for days

according to survivors and activists in touch with the boat throughout the day. At about 7:00 p.m. an activist in Italy recorded one of the calls

capturing the horror on board

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator) (text): Can I notify the coast guard that six people died.

KARADSHEH (voiceover): These activists repeatedly relayed calls for rescue to authorities to merchant vessels approach the boat instructed by the

Greek Coast Guard to provide the boat with food and water. But as darkness fell at 10:40 p.m. a Greek Coast Guard vessel moves in now the only ship on

the scene. Three hours later, the haunting last words from the boat to the activist group alarm phone.

Hello, my friend, the ship you send us and the line cuts out. What happened next is likely to raise more questions as the investigations continue.

Survivors tell us it was a botched attempt by the Greek Coast Guard to tow their boat that caused it to capsize.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They decided to throw us a rope. So the guys at the front tied it. They towed us. The boat tilted to the right

and everyone was screaming. People began falling into the sea and the boat capsized. People couldn't get out from under the boat.

KARADSHEH (voiceover): The Greek Coast Guard have declined our request for an interview but in previous comments, they've denied towing the troller

saying when the boat capsized, we were not even next to it. How could we be towing it? Instead, they blamed the "shift in weight probably caused by


For years, Greek authorities have been accused of systematically and violently pushing back migrants and refugees. Video like this one released

by the Turkish Government captured the now well-documented practice Greece denies. This deadly incident is not just about what they may have done.

It's also about what they didn't do.

VINCENT COCHETEL, UNHCR SPECIAL ENVOY FOR THE CENTRAL MEDITERRANEAN: It was clear it wasn't (INAUDIBLE) it was clear that it is part of a trafficking

movement from Libya to Europe, Saudi authorities are the responsibility to intervene to save life.

KARADSHEH (voiceover): As Fortress Europe hardens its immigration policies to deter some of the world's most vulnerable, this disaster will almost

certainly not be the last.


QUEST: Is it the feeling that we will ever find out? Will there be an independent inquiry which the Greek Coast Guard may come off looking at

rather badly? But even before that you've got this policy, this unspoken policy, look the other way, let the ship go on to Italy. It'll be somebody

else's problem.

KARADSHEH: And that is very concerning. You pattern, Richard that we are hearing from a top U.N. official and other officials and NGOs. They're very

concerned about what's happening rather, over the past few years, we have seen these push backs that CNN has reported on where you have these

European countries that are using the tactic of pushing back migrants and refugees arriving on their shores and at their borders.

But now what we're seeing is this new pattern, again, another attempt to try and shift the responsibility on to different countries. What we're

hearing is that this new pattern of coastal countries, including Greece, they're accused of facilitating the movement of these migrant and refugee

boats providing them with water, food fuel, and pushing them towards Italy, which of course as you know, this year is facing a serious increase in

number of arrivals at its shores.

And as one top U.N. official told us this is unfair where Italy is dealing with this. So, the real concern, Richard, right now is these policies,

these tactics of pushing back and not dealing with the root causes of the issues.


This is only -- this is not going to deter the desperate and it's only going to make the situation far worse.

QUEST: Much harder to deal with the route issues than just keep the boat shoving moving along. All right. Jomana, we'll talk about that aspect on a

future occasion. Thank you very much. Thank you.

QUEST MEANS BUSINESS tonight on a Friday. France's president says other leaders complain of double standards. Developed nations quickly found money

for Ukraine, but not tackling climate change. Emmanuel Macron sit down with Fareed Zakaria. Good evening to you.


QUEST: The French president Emmanuel Macron says fighting climate change calls for new global order. This climate finance summit in Paris has tried

to attempt to lay the groundwork for just that. It was attended by leaders from 40 countries or so. They announced some progress. The World Bank, for

instance, will let developing nations hit by natural disasters, pause their loan repayments.

And over the next decade, it will expand its lending capacity by another $200 billion. President Macron said the financial help is long overdue.


EMMANUEL MACRON, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE: I was very upset by this narrative of double standard. And a lot of leaders in this world said to us, you have a

lot of billions for Ukraine. But when the question is to fix poverty, climate change, climate vulnerability in our country, it takes years or

decades to find a few millions. This is quite true. I think we are right to do what we are doing for Ukraine because we're fighting for international

law, for our liberty and our principles and for a country being aggressed.

But let's be clear, we were not sufficiently efficient vis-a-vis the south and a lot of country facing poverty and climate change at the same time.

So, we have to address this narrative of double standard otherwise it will be used by some of us to create an alternative multilateral order. New

financial institutions, new global order and to say World Bank, IMF, even United Nations are no more efficient to fix our big issues.

Let's create something else. This is the number one reason of -- for me. This form gathering from the U.S. to China to South Africa, Brazil,

Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, the Europeans and so on.


A lot of countries, very poor to very rich, to build together a new consensus.

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: Let me ask you about the war in Ukraine, when you are looking at the Ukrainian counteroffensive it has just begun. So, we

don't know where it's going. You've often said that there needs to be a time when negotiations begin about a good piece. Do you think that that

point will come in three or four months once this counter offensive is done?

MACRON: I do hope. I do hope. I think the purpose of this counteroffensive is to push the Russians to negotiate and come back at the table at

obviously better conditions for the Ukrainians. I do hope. What is our goal? Is to build sustainable peace. And sustainable peace is a peace

respecting international laws and international order. The U.N. Charter and respecting the Ukrainian people.

And this is a big difference between sustainable peace and a ceasefire, which would just mean freezing this conflict, which is a certainty to have

a -- to have this conflict resuming in a few months or a few years' time.


QUEST: Emmanuel Macron. For its full interview with the President, the French president will be on Sunday on CNN at 10:00 Eastern time. That's

3:00 in London, 4:00 in Europe, Central Europe, discussing climate change, the war in Ukraine and (INAUDIBLE) of the world's issues.

San Francisco's mayor says the city must be reimagined and she's encouraging investors today to reinvent the city's downtown by converting

or even demolishing its buildings. The city has been -- has struggled after the pandemic. It's in a mass exodus of tenants and the downsizing of big

tech. San Francisco is not the -- not alone. Many cities are trying to keep new identity to keep work life balances.

Playground cities is the way of some calling it. The architecture to come up with that is Carlo Ratti. He's a professor at MIT. He's with me now.

Playground cities. I love the idea because to some extent, that takes us back to what cities always were. I mean, it became before -- either became

too expensive, like in London dead on or they became blighted and knighted.

CARLO RATTI, DIRECTOR, SENSEABLE CITY LAB, MIT: Yes. You're absolutely right. And this is really -- it's not the first time the cities are

changing their own skin. It's, you know, we've seen this over the past few 100 years in different ways. And certainly, the new ways of working and now

calling for a new way of living and, you know, somehow, you know, doing buildings and structuring the city itself.

QUEST: But here's the core issue. Can we adapt fast enough? Because in many of the cities, the changes that took place, they took place over decades,

even, arguably, centuries. Now, this one has been somersaulted and put on steroids. And it's happening in a short period of time. So, can cities

adapt within the timeframe?

RATTI: Well, I think they can. But I think we need to actually help them adapt faster. One of the important things is actually to start thinking

about trial and error, to try things see what works, what doesn't work, we still don't know exactly what will be the next configuration. So we really

need to play something similar. You mentioned, San Francisco, something similar to what venture capital does.

I mean, trying something new small scale and let it evolve. And it also having less regulation somehow, you know, some of the regulations of the

past century when you think in particular about single zoning, well, if we are able to relax that, that will allow cities to adapt


QUEST: Right. Now, my mother used to live in -- which is I've lived in London, in a part of London that was planned and built in the Victorian

times as being a mixed, you know, the laborer lived over there. The banker lived over there. And everybody used the same gardens in the middle and

I've been asked, now, can we -- can we plan today? Do we have the ability to plan today for that diverse socioeconomic group?

RATTI: Well, I will say we must do it. And we -- the important thing, actually, as well that we discovered this with our research at MIT by

analyzing social networks. I mean, the way people communicate in what happened before the pandemic, during the pandemic, and now is actually

physical space is very, very important. Without encounters in physical space, then our social networks wither little by little, you know, they

become much weaker.

And we really need to meet in physical space. So the city has still an important role to play, but the role is changing and hence, we need to

rethink physical space.

QUEST: So why should I be optimistic, sir? I mean, you have downtown Detroit blighted and knighted and just sort of in the past truly



You've got Midtown Manhattan, Upper East Side Manhattan tremendously expensive, just people priced out. I could give you the same examples in

any other city or country where you have that. What's the optimism that says we can bring both of those extremes into the middle?

RATTI: Well, I will say a number of things but perhaps also the present crisis could be a way to make our cities more affordable. You know, once we

-- perhaps we've converted some of the office buildings into residences, into residential, into homes, you know, then somehow the change we have is

also a great opportunity to make the city's yesterday more affordable.

QUEST: Very glad that you're with us. Next time we speak we'll be going and looking at the city together. Thank you, sir. I'm grateful.

RATTI: Thank you.

QUEST: It's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. The first Friday of summer is here in the northern hemisphere. Although no one seems to have told about the weather

forecast. And look at it. This is what -- this is what the weather forecast. Oh, this is what the weather's like at the moment. That's the

roof top camera. Yes. And that's why we're not upstairs. I'll explain after the break.


QUEST: Get rid of this. It's the first Friday of summer. We had hoped to bring you one of our summer Friday shows celebrating the start of summer.

We're going to be live from the edge upstairs. But as you can see the weather had other plans with thunder and lightning. That's the view you

would have seen actually if we'd been up on the edge today. It would not have made for enlightening broadcasting in any shape or form.

But we'll be back on the edge later in the summer. Also, this summer will be at the Intrepid, the Guggenheim, the New York Botanical Gardens. We'll

be all over the place. And this is the sort of thing we will be experiencing. Let's look back at the Fridays of summer past.


QUEST: Join me for a summer Friday. For the next month or two, every Friday the program will come from somewhere different, somewhere enjoyable.

Tonight, we are suspended on the edge. I'm terrified of heights. Whoa. Whoa, whoa. We are a little island. Mixing, we're should mixing out here.

It was the brainchild of Barry Diller.

BARRY DILLER, CHAIRPERSON, IAC: Nothing that I've ever done has given just that kind of visceral pleasure.


QUEST: From JFK and the TWA hotel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The opportunity to bring it back to life was a once in a lifetime opportunity. You want to go out on the way?

QUEST: Somewhere in all of this. We have the Toum to enjoy ourselves. We're at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. What does Met worthy mean?


QUEST: Grand Central Terminal. I'm now about 150 feet beneath the street level. When it comes to Friday, yes. I'll keep the tie but we're going to

go a little bit easier.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is our Blueberry Meyer Lemon shake, and it's got pound cake crumble on top. You approved.

QUEST: That's worth of summer Friday.


QUEST: Excellent. I'm looking forward to them all. Wall Street is headed for a losing week. If it's raining outside, let's just pour on the misery

before we take a break. Got 190. That was worse but at least it's holding its own at the moment. A lot more red than green on the 30. We will take a

profitable moment after the break.


QUEST: So now it's profitable moment. We tried. We really did. I'm British. It'll take a bit more than a bit of bad weather to put me off. But when it

came to doing summer Fridays from the edge up 100 and something feet high. Well, the weather just didn't cooperate. And so, we had to look at that.

That's exactly what it's like in New York. But that's not going to stop us from our summer Friday's quest over the course of the next few weeks.

Because what we discovered last year is that they're really good fun. And we talk about the playground city. We are going to show you here in New

York, the playground city, the best intrepid museums, we're going to go to visit them all. News -- values, news, allowing and of course, assuming the

weather cooperates. Our summer Fridays celebrates the fact that on a Friday, in the summer, most businesses say take your foot off the pedal,

relax, enjoy.

Now those of us who have to work in broadcasting continue to be here every day, and we'll continue to be broadcasting but it doesn't mean to say we

can't have a bit of fun, which is exactly what this is all about. And we're delighted that you're going to enjoy it with us. Summer Fridays, it has

begun. Even if it doesn't look like it. And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for tonight.


I'm Richard Quest. Well, I couldn't talk about interest rates anymore. I'm up to here with interest rates. Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead, I

hope it's profitable. Have a wonderful weekend.