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Quest Means Business

Israel Drops Leaflets On Parts Of Southern Gaza; The Dangerous Journey Out Of Gaza City; Biden: We're committed To Asia-Pacific Region; APEC Leaders Pose For Family Photo; U.S. Representative George Santos Won't Seek Reelection; Edelman Survey Says NGOs Are Trusted Most On Climate Change; Call To Earth: The Ocean's Twilight Zone; Toyota Camry To Be Hybrid Only In 2025. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired November 16, 2023 - 15:00   ET



JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Israel drops leaflets on parts of southern Gaza, the move suggesting a possible expansion of the offensive

against Hamas.

President Biden says he still believes Xi Jinping is a dictator. The comments could cause friction as leaders gather for the APEC Summit in San


And a new survey shows climate anxiety is global, 93% of us believe it poses a serious or imminent threat to the planet.

Live from New York, it's Thursday, November 16th. I'm Julia Chatterley, in for Richard Quest, and this is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.

Good evening. Once again, the Israeli Defense Forces are warning people in parts of southern Gaza to leave their homes and head to, quote, "known

shelters." These leaflets were dropped over four communities east of Khan Younis. They say everyone who, quote, "finds themselves near terrorists" or

in buildings used by terrorists is exposed to danger.

In northern Gaza, the IDF also says troops found the body of an Israeli hostage near the Al-Shifa Hospital. Yehudit Weiss is a 65-year-old

grandmother who was kidnapped on October 7th. Nic Robertson joins us now.

Nic, that news, of course, devastating for the family. I believe her husband also died in the events of that attack on October the 7th. But also

crucial in light of breaking news in the last 15 minutes or so, the Israeli is saying they found an operational tunnel shaft inside the Al-Shifa

Hospital, and they'll provide evidence of it. What more can you tell us?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, they have found what they say is a tunnel shaft. It appears to be very close to the

perimeter of the hospital complex, but really clearly, you can see the hospital buildings from the hole in the ground. And what the IDF have been

saying through the latter part of this day is that it's going to take them a few days, or even weeks, to properly go through the whole extensive

complex of the hospital.

They say it's a precise search that they're doing. They're going through all the different floors of the building, looking for other indications of

Hamas' presence, the sort of command-and-control node that they've talked about. But, of course, it's the bunkers underneath the hospital that they

have talked about in advanced of arriving at the hospital.

And they -- the evidence that they presented today, we're not there to independently verify, but we can see from the images this apparent tunnel

shaft is within the complex at the hospital itself. This is, it appears, their intent to show the indication that they have begun to find some of

what they believe to be at the hospital.

The elderly lady, Yehudit Weiss, 65 years old, as you said, was found in a house near the hospital. This is what the IDF are saying, found by their

troops. They say near her body were weapons belonging to the terrorists.

We don't have details about how she died, and we don't have details about their condition of the building she was in. Of course, many relatives of

hostages have been concerned that as Israel has targeted Hamas, Hamas has been using the hostages as, if you will, human shields, that their loved

ones would get caught up and killed.

She was from a community, a kibbutz called Be'eri, which is quite close to the border with Gaza. And it had perhaps the highest death toll of any

single kibbutz. I think more than 100 people were killed there when Hamas arrived. But many also, like her, were taken hostage. The IDF now saying,

yes, unfortunately she is confirmed dead.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, and heartbreaking, of course, for her family, a mother of five, of course, and a grandmother, too. But all of this that you've been

discussing, Nic, comprises evidence for the IDF to justify the targeted operations that they're carrying out in Gaza, of course, and obviously

pivotal in light of the fact that they're dropping leaflets now in areas at the south of the country, where initially they told people to head to, to

say you also need to move and go to known shelters in order to escape what clearly looks to be a further expansion now in the south of their



ROBERTSON: It does appear to show that Israel will carry through on -- in its many times stated intent to take Hamas out of the whole of Gaza. They

initially indicated people in the north to move south of this dividing line, if you will, this Wadi across the middle -- a dry river across the

middle of Gaza. And the IDF now has control of that area and has divided Gaza into a north and the south. And a vast number of civilians living in

the north have escaped to the south.

So you almost now have a double density population in the south. And that raises, in and of itself, so many concerns, given the high civilian death

toll when the IDF has been going after Hamas in the north with double the population, in essence, in the south. That puts double the number of

civilians potentially at risk of what the IDF is doing here is what they've done in the north, which is drop these leaflets, which tells people to move

to known safe areas.

It's not clear precisely what the IDF is indicating here, but they have talked about a humanitarian zone in the southwest of the Gaza Strip, an

area close to the Mediterranean Sea. It's not clear what this zone is, who polices it, who makes it safe for the people who arrived there, what

accommodations or anything they have.

The best indication we have so far is no NGOs have been establishing camps and bases there. The NGOs and the UN say they're running out of fuel to do

anything in Gaza, never mind establish huge displacement camps. So who's going to manage them? How will people be made safe?

The weather is deteriorating. The UN agencies are concerned about the outbreak of diseases in the communities. But if -- as the -- if -- as it

appears that the IDF will continue their operations into the south, disease, possible human casualties, all of those will be concerns in an

environment, again, with a double density population and now, with a deficit of hospitals because the vast majority of hospitals in Gaza are out

of action.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, likely important questions and considerations to be asking.

Nic, as always, thank you. Nic Robertson there.

Now we often talk in terms of numbers of people but, of course, these are all individual lives and families we're talking about. Jomana Karadsheh

follows one's harrowing journey. And we'd like to warn you, some of the images may be disturbing.


JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Gaza City, two-year-old Whalid, distracted through his family's most difficult night

of the war so far.

With daybreak, the Israeli military calls with an order, you have 30 minutes to get out. It was my 9:30 AM on November the 10th, with makeshift

white flags, they say the military told them to hold up. They prepare to move.

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): With the little they can carry, they head out and into the unknown. Some, too frail to walk.

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): Journalist Rami Abujamus is filming the forced evacuation of his family, along with more than 30 of their neighbors. His

phone in his right hand, and in the other, his son Whalid.

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): He speaks French with his son, looking for his wife ahead.

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): While waiting for other elderly neighbors struggling to catch up.

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): That constant buzz you here is Israeli drones overhead. It's been the soundtrack of Gaza for years. As they get to the

other side of the street, Rami spots his neighbor, Abu Ahmad. Something is not right.

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language, crying.)


(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language, crying.)

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): Ahmad was shot in the head. He didn't make it.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): And around the corner, two others, a man and woman also shot. It's uncertain who opened fire on the group. CNN geolocated

these videos and traced this deadly journey out of central Gaza City. We provided the Israeli military with details of this incident, and these

coordinates, but they did not respond to our request for comment.


KARADSHEH (on camera): Hello, Rami?

KARADSHEH (voice over): We reached Rami, now in the south.

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): Like most, here, they were on their own. They got to Shifa Hospital, but so did the war.

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): Witness to it all, two-year-old Whalid.

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

RAMI ABUJAMUS (through translator): I kept trying to make sure he's not scared and make him feel like what he's seeing around us is a circus or an

amusement park. I don't know if I succeeded. Even the journey of humiliation where you take a donkey here and a horse there, I was trying to

make that entertaining for him.

(JOMANA KARADSHEH speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (on camera): I asked Rami why he decided to film.

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

RAMI ABUJAMUS (through translator): I just want this to get to the world so they know the injustice that we're facing. They cast doubt on everything we

do. They're stronger in every way not just militarily, but with the information that comes out, the narrative that comes out, the news that

comes out. What they say is the truth, and our words are lies.

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

(JOMANA KARADSHEH speaking in foreign language.)

(RAMI ABUJAMUS speaking in foreign language.)

RAMI ABUJAMUS (through translator): Please, just deliver our message. I don't want anything else. I don't want all those who have been killed to

have died in vain.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): Rami doesn't know what they'll do now, but says he will only leave his homeland forced at gunpoint, or dead.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

KARADSHEH (voice over): Jomana Karadsheh, CNN, London.


CHATTERLEY: Now for balance (ph), Israel says it tried to call people in Gaza to evacuate areas where military operations are underway to minimize

civilian casualties. But there's always been worldwide criticism of the number of deaths in Gaza. The Hamas-controlled Gaza Ministry of Health says

more than 11,400 people, 400 have been killed, including about 4,700 children.

Stay with CNN. We'll be back.



CHATTERLEY: President Biden says the US and Asia-Pacific region are vital for each other. He just finished speaking at the APEC conference in San

Francisco, where he aimed to show regional leaders that the US remains engaged. In that one-on-one, of course, yesterday with China's President Xi

Jinping at their highly anticipated summit, the two leaders are striking a cordial tone.

And later that night, at the gala dinner, Xi told US business leaders that China wants their investment. These events follow months, of course, of

souring relations between the two countries.

And a short while ago, President Biden said the fate of the United States and the region are intertwined.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You can count on the United States. We're delivering our promises, and we're doubling down on our

progress. We'll soon be your strong and steady partner as we continue working together to realize Asia-Pacific region is free and open,

prosperous and secure, resilient and connected.


CHATTERLEY: David Culver is in San Francisco, and he joins us. David, it's a vital point because it's not just about two nations, the United States

and China, it's about a whole lot more in the region. They all rely on each. But I do think expectations for all of this were set incredibly low,

each though having their own desire to come out to this saying it was productive. What was achieved, David, whether that's regionally or between

the two powerhouses involved?

DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR US NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and perhaps, Julia, those low expectations were met in many ways. It's interesting

President Biden wrapping up that speech that you just played a little bit about -- just a short time ago, and he was at a building just across the

street here. He's now made his way to another series of events in the building we're in. And it shows you just how important, to your point, all

these regional partners are.

I mean, because I think when people think about this big Xi-Biden summit, they forget it is on the sidelines of what was already planned, and that is

APEC where you have 21 economies from the Asia-Pacific, here, very much looking at the two superpowers, where China and the US stand right now and

how that might impact them.

And we know that obviously from a political perspective, the US is trying to catch up in many ways with where China has been focused, and that is

trying to win over some of their partners or within the region, some of the other Southeast Asian countries there as well, and so the US, interestingly

enough, taking that focus here to APEC.

And, in fact, even when you think about the Xi-Biden meeting yesterday, what followed that meeting? Two different dinners. President Xi was at a

dinner that was focused on business leaders -- American business leaders at that. You had Apple's Tim Cook. You had Elon Musk there. And so it was very

much trying to win back, if not to encourage businesses that are already in China to expand.

And that speaks to their need -- China's need in particular. It's an economic one. It's to boost what is a very much struggling economy, the

housing marketing crisis, youth unemployment at record highs.

So where was President Biden while President Xi was at his dinner? He was at another one. In that audience, mostly diplomats and political leaders

from APEC, from the countries that are here represented and are trying to figure out how the US can play a role in strengthening its, really,

bolstering of economies within the Asia-Pacific.

So it's just interesting to compare the two, Julia, when you look at where they focus their time after that big summit yesterday.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, a portrait of two leaders and their incentives clearly on display there, David. They're nicely put.

Can I ask you -- and maybe it's an unfortunate question -- about the dictator comment, and maybe, in some ways, it was a journalist leading the

witness to some degree, because I'm just interested in how all of these meetings are perceived in China itself. And particularly, that phrase or

that way of describing the Chinese leader. You can take offense at that as we've seen in the past or perhaps not depending on where your incentives


CULVER: I think there's a lot of frustration in China, for sure. I mean, you heard it from the foreign ministry calling this extremely erroneous and

how to describe President Xi. They, of course, do not like that word. It's not getting a lot of play in state and social media, and perhaps that's

because of how tightly controlled that medium is. And we know that firsthand, you know, seeing how some thickened surface, I think, quickly be

scrubbed away.

But I think when you look at now where the US is trying to refocus, they certainly want to move away from that. President Biden making no remarks

about that in his speech just a short time ago and not likely to say anything going forward, but it shows you that it's still very sensitive.


This is a very much fragile relationship. And it's one that, yes, even a remark like that can throw things off.

But right now, the White House seems focused on trying to move forward with their messaging that this was a straightforward and constructive

conversation. If you look at what's being said in Chinese social media, it's kind of veered away from even the substance of this conversation. It's

gotten really a lot more personal.

They were talking about how President Biden showed President Xi a picture of when he was here in San Francisco in 1985, and the two smiled about

that, or how President Biden complemented President Xi's car, a Chinese- made vehicle. So those are the things that are getting a lot more traction from Chinese social media right now, and that perhaps indicates that's

where they want to be focused.

And it is, overall, pretty glowing. Julia, you know that's not very common from Chinese state media, especially when it comes to the United States. I

mean, for years, certainly during the time I was living there, from 2019 up until last year, it was very hard to find anything positive in state media

about the US.

And so this juxtaposition now being put forward, and really an about face from state media, I think it's starting to throw off some of the focus

within China, too. We've seen some of those comments suggesting that this quick change in tone is being noted by those on Chinese social media.

So it's something to watch going forward, too, because if that tone will change in Chinese state media, it's a good indicator of where the Chinese

Communist Party is thinking, especially when it comes to US-China relations.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, fascinating, focus on the things we have in common, rather than the things perhaps that divide us.

David Culver, great to have you.

CULVER: Right.

CHATTERLEY: Thank you. Rick Waters is the Managing Director for China, Eurasia Group. He also served as the US Deputy Assistant Secretary of State

for China and Taiwan until June of this year, and he joins us now.

Rick, fantastic to have you with us. As I was mentioning there with David, low expectations perhaps met in this meeting, but a couple of clear points

wanting to perhaps change the narrative around or the perception of concerns around China's relationship with Taiwan, and then the breakdown in

communications between China and the United States over their military, particularly when they're operating in close quarters in Asia-Pacific. Do

you see breakthroughs on both of these fronts perhaps as the success of these talks?

RICK WATERS, MANAGING DIRECTOR FOR CHINA, EURASIA GROUP: Well, thank you first off. I tend to see this meeting more in the way that David does. The

Biden administration -- President Biden met very low expectations for a relationship that is really in a period of decline. The two leaders are

trying to manage that decline because they both have incentives to do so. But the strategic differences between them remain. And I think that's the

first key point.

The second point is there were some tactical areas of convergence, and I think that reflects the fact that both of them thought things got a little

out of hand in 2022 on Taiwan. They don't want to end up in a conflict through carelessness or miscommunication. And so I think you see in the

three or four key outcomes of this meeting, a reflection of that tactical convergence.

So I think we can talk a bit about the specifics, but I would point to three. One is a very consequential resumption of military-to-military

channels that have been suspended for over a year.

Two, I would say that the deal that is emerging on the fentanyl and on the fentanyl precursor chemicals that, primarily, come from China could be very


And third, I think this agreement to discuss the issue of artificial intelligence and keeping it out of the weapons control chains is

potentially consequential because, ultimately, the US and China are the only two countries that really face that challenge today.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, Xi said, look, the world is big enough for both of us, but also warned that the United States

shouldn't scheme to suppress or contain China. I do wonder to that point where the protection of, particularly, United States' IP and state secrets

ends in the containment of China begins, which is the continuingly blurry line here.

But it was interesting, I think. And I heard that President Biden said to Xi, look, you're going to be dealing with me for the next five years. The

assumption there being he continues to run for president in 2024 and is the president after that.

Rick, how does the politics of this and who China is dealing with beyond matter in terms of their thinking? Does it change much whether it's for

Democrats or the Republicans next year, at least in their mind, do you think?

WATERS: Well, I think the comment that you referenced from Xi Jinping is a very important one. I think the Chinese leadership had a very dim long-term

view of what they perceive as a US containment policy. You know, we can talk about why that's a misperception, but the reality is that's the way

they see it.


The second thing is I don't think they detect immense differences between administrations at this point. They know that strategic competition is the

new framework. That competition will intensify. And I think a lot of what you saw Xi Jinping trying to do in the run up to this meeting is to

diversify his stabilization effort around the executive branch.

So you had engagements with bipartisan congressional delegations. You had Governor Newsom's visit, and you had a number of letters that Xi Jinping

sent directly to groups in the US that are perceived as on balance from native China.

I think this, in a way, it reflects the Chinese leadership view that you can't just deal with the executive branch going into an election. And that

template, I think, is becoming more and more common every four years.

CHATTERLEY: In some ways, the politics of the situation is less important than foreign direct investment, businesses, American businesses, for

example, and others, of course, investing in China. And we have seen a drain of that foreign investment and deep disquiet, I think, from business

leaders over what President Xi and the administration stands for versus how they act -- what you say versus is how you act. Do you think the dinner

last night changed anything to that regard?

WATERS: Well, I think Xi Jinping was trying to set a positive tone, and there was a lot of that in his speech. But when you look for specifics, the

types of things that the business community is most interested in with regard to perceptions of the China market, the speech was a little bit

lacking in that regard.

And I think it gets back to a broader point, which is that, you know, the fundamentals of investing in China are evolving, whether it's equity

investments, the risks of long-term foreign invest vestment. And I think it's primarily because of the Chinese economic model and where foreign

businesses bid in. But I do think, to some extent, geopolitical risk or perceptions of that risk have increased over the past couple of years.

CHATTERLEY: Do you think that's an underappreciated risk by the United States when they're dealing with China? The challenges that Xi Jinping

faces at home, ballooning youth unemployment, the challenges in the economy, the property set to decline, the fact that he's changed his

foreign and defense ministers in recent months. Do they really understand culturally what they're dealing with, because that matters?

WATERS: I agree it matters. I think there is an effort by Biden and his team to gain an appreciation of those issues. It's hard to be frank. I

mean, the Chinese system is not very transparent. But I think more fundamentally, the challenges that are going on in the Chinese economy

right now, I think to some degree, reflect a longer trajectory of an unwillingness to undertake a reform by definitions that, I think, would

make the Chinese economic future prospects and direction more compatible with a healthy US-China relationship.

I mean, so long as the reliance is on state industrial policy and related measures that aim ultimately to dominate advanced technology and have a

mercantilist flavor, it's going to be a very hard and unstable economic relationship. And that will, therefore, no longer balance the competitive

aspects of US-China relations in the military domain and elsewhere.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, the big themes in this relationship, the trajectory of demand changing, so negotiating around that is the real challenge here.

Rick, great to chat with you. We'll speak again (inaudible). Rick Waters, managing director for China at Eurasia Group there.

Now coming up, key findings from a major global survey on the climate crisis ahead at the crucial COP28 conference this month. We'll have the





CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to QUEST MEANS BUSINESS with a look at that photo at the APEC 2023 summit in San Francisco. It follows, of course, those key

meetings between the Chinese president Xi Jinping and U.S. President Joe Biden.

Just looking to see the positioning there. You can see the Canadian prime minister, of course, Justin Trudeau with the strategic position, the good

position there of Xi Jinping. The Chinese leader just walking off, as you can see there, camera left. And President Biden all smiles there between

those APEC leaders there.

Bigger thumbs up as he leaves, further details from those meetings, we shall bring them to you.

For now, the controversial U.S. House Republican George Santos says he won't be running for reelection in 2024. He blamed media pressure on his

family for his decision, yet it comes in the wake of a damning ethics committee investigation that found, quote, "substantial evidence" that

Santos used campaign funds for personal purposes.

Melanie Zanona joins us now from Washington, D.C.

The committee also uncovered additional uncharged and unlawful conduct that goes beyond the criminal charges I believe that he already faces. Pretty

damning. This decisions surprises no. One

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, an incredibly damning, report one that was conducted by a bipartisan group of George Santos' peers. And in

this report they detail how he purposefully lied to file these SEC reports, his financial documents. And how he used campaign funds for personal

expenses, on everything from spa treatments to Botox to designer goods, to lavish vacations, paying off his own credit card.

So now this report could really spell the end of his political future. George Santos has said he will not run for reelection in 2024, which is a

departure to what he had told our colleague, Manu Raju, in a recent interview.

But he might not even make it to next year. And that is because there's going to be a new effort to try to expel him from Congress.

I'm told that Michael Guest, the Republican chairman of the House Ethics Committee, which conducted that investigation report, is going to be the

one to file a motion as soon as tomorrow to expel George Santos from Congress.

And that would set the stage for a floor vote after lawmakers return from the Thanksgiving recess. Now past efforts to expel George Santos have

failed in the past. It's a very high bar. You need two thirds of the entire chamber to succeed.

But now having the weight of the House Ethics Committee is going to be significant. We are already seeing momentum starting to build for that

effort. Several Republicans, who previously voted no against expulsion now say they are willing to vote yes, based on what they have seen in this


So the dam is starting to break, here and if they succeed at removing, Santos it would be unprecedented.


ZANONA: This is an extremely dramatic and rare step. The last members who have been expelled were either already convicted or they were members of

the Confederacy during the Civil War, just to give you an example of how extremely rare this is.

But clearly, many Republicans feel like this is enough to say that they need to remove their colleague from the House and this dramatic step. And

they are ready to put this entire saga behind them.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, tough to justify a no vote in the face of this Ethics Committee report but we shall see. Melanie Zanona, thank you for. Now

Donald Trump has a new rival in the key state of New Hampshire, CNN's latest poll shows former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley is the number two

candidate for the Republican nomination. But as you can see former president Trump still has more than twice the support.

New Hampshire is significant, of course, because it's the first Republican primary in that vote. It's set for January 23rd. Now an earlier graphic as

the poll stated there was no clear leader in the race and that's clearly incorrect. We apologize and have now rectified that mistake.

Heads of state, business leaders and even Pope Francis will gather in Dubai later this month for the U.N. climate summit COP28. And ahead of that,

public relations giant Edelman released a special trust barometer report on climate change.

A whopping 93 percent of nearly 14,000 people surveyed from14 countries said they believe the issue is posing an imminent or serious threat to our

planet. The report also finds that NGOs are the most trusted institutions at 58, percent while just 49 percent of respondents said they trust

businesses to do what's right on the issue.

Media, sadly is at the bottom with 44 percent. We don't want to talk about that. Edelman CEO Richard Edelman joins us, now

Richard it's fantastic to have you on as always. The great news -- and you can dig down into the details of this again -- is that it feels like

virtually everyone that you surveyed was worried. I mean, 93 percent is a huge step. They recognize the threat to their families, to their


And two thirds of people, too, which stood out to me, recognized that weather has gotten more extreme. That's what they're pinpointing.

RICHARD EDELMAN, CEO, EDELMAN: Julia, I think the most important finding in this study is optimism generates behavior change. And we are going into

COP on the wrong, foot by 2.5:1. People are more pessimistic than they are optimistic.

But we can get to optimism if people have trust in institutions. They get that by tangible achievement of their commitments.

CHATTERLEY: OK, so I'm going to push back on that because I sort of agree with, you but then I look at the statistics and I'm like, oh, dear. When

you are saying that the 77 percent that are worried about climate, change just 22 percent are hopeful that we can overcome the challenges.

I get your, point. The problem is there's a lot of convincing still required.

EDELMAN: So I think we have to move from fear to hope. We have to show tangible steps that companies are taken or that governments are doing. I

was reading a story today about heating units that are now slow to be put into homes because there is confusion about government funding.

We've got to give clear information, we've got to give a clear path on supply chain, we've got to make it easy for consumers to choose the right

kinds of products. They have to feel it's good for them and good for the world.

CHATTERLEY: This is actually something that stood out to me as well; eight out of 10 people of those that want to be greener -- and many of them do --

they say their biggest impediment is, cost.

And I think that's a lack of education both on companies and policy makers that, in many cases, we're at the relative break even point for

technologies like wind power, solar power.

People just don't realize it yet and they don't have enough access and the upfront payment to make to invest in this, even if longer term they would

be better off than using combustion energies. We're there, we just don't realize it.

EDELMAN: So again, I think business, which has relatively low trust on sustainability, needs to partner with NGOs and government, not push them

away. To work together, to make it clear that this is the right kind of choice to a better personal life as well as a better planet.

And we've got to be very clear in our communication that this is good for me and not just good for the world.

CHATTERLEY: How can we help as media?

I sort of made a joke about, that but the least trusted on this, apparently, media, we will incorporate social media and I'll come back to

that point cause I've got another topic of conversation with you on that.

But what role does media and information play in this?

Because there is misinformation and there's confusion for people trying to understand who needs to act and how and feeling that positive impact about



EDELMAN: Two thirds of our respondents said they found the media deeply negative, that your reporting about all of the floods and the heat waves --

and those are all true. But fear has reached its logical extent of making people change their minds.

We've got the awareness, now we have to get them to act. And we have to do this by showing, even if it's small steps, forward. And I love for example

what the fashion industry is doing, in creating a consortium to move from fast fashion to sustainable fashion.

We have to show also the consumer the labels such that we know that's the right kind of supply chain.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. And let's also show the viewer the positive steps that are being made in the businesses in particular, that are taking steps and

acting in a positive way rather than bombing people and bombarding people with the bad news.

Can I ask you about an article that was on, Clare Duffy is the writer. And it's saying that CNN is showing that Meta will allow political

ads on its platform that question the results of the 2020 election. It's a change that's been made.

So it's a rollback on the content moderation that we've seen over the past year as we head into the presidential elections in 2024. So just to make it

really simple, basically they are going to profit or make money from ads that promote false claims about the result of the 2020 election.

To the point about trusting, media which at some part this breaks my, heart a rollback of moderation that's already inadequate.

EDELMAN: Again, I think Meta has done a lot in improving its moderation. And the theory is that people have the right to see ads for candidates or

political views and they can make their own judgment, then I think that there is a really important role for media in making sure that the facts

that are presented are clear on both sides.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, I'm not sure that's going to. Happen just to be, clear they're going to prohibit those ads that call into question the legitimacy

of the upcoming or the impending election, so they're going to kill that in 2024. But they're going to allow the confusion over the result in 2020.

That feels like having your cake and eating it.

EDELMAN: Again, I think the smart companies will continue to lean in on moderation because everyone needs a safe platform in which to advertise and

make their consumers feel as if the content that they're getting, both ad, as well as earned, is worth their time.

CHATTERLEY: Let's push it forward, Richard, whatever it, is the key for trust in 2024 as we close out this year, what are you going to be most

focused on?

EDELMAN: I think there is just a huge gap between science and society. I'm going to Abu Dhabi to COP28 to make the case for business and government

and NGOs all to lean in on energy, on food, on tech, on health to make sure that this gap between the speed of innovation and the pace of adoption


So on small nuclear, regenerative agriculture, all of these things are key to our future but we've got to make sure that people understand, them and

trust the institutions that are delivering them.

CHATTERLEY: I might steal that, I love that. Closing the gap between science and society. Richard, we will be reconvening on this conversation.

Richard Edelman, thank you for your time and your wisdom.

OK, coming up, a team dives into extreme depths to explore parts of the ocean never before captured. We'll take you there.





CHATTERLEY: Welcome back.

The mesophotic zone is one of the planet's great unexplored ecosystems. Also known as the ocean's twilight zone, the area between the shallows and

the total darkness at the deep sea.

Now as part of Rolex's Perpetual Planet Initiative, divers from Under The Pole have dedicated their lives to exploring and documenting these depths

and the unknown wonders that call them home.



GHISLAIN BARDOUT, DIVER (voice-over): When you are a diver, you are always curious to go to sea a little bit further. I think every single diver in

the world, when you are about to go up, you always have an eye to the depths, to the bottom because they're eternal (ph). You want to go deeper

because you wonder, what are you going to find?

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ghislain Bardout goes deep, much deeper than most. In fact, in setting up Under The Pole,

his wife, Emmanuelle, in 2007, he has conducted thousands of dives, often to 150 or even 200 meters deep.

His crew has explored everywhere, from the Arctic, to the Canary Islands, French Polynesia to the Caribbean.

BARDOUT (voice-over): We are talking about huge ecosystems that are covered the entire planet, all the, shore everywhere, it's just below 30

meters, 40 meters and they are for sure many species, many different ecosystems that all have huge importance.

So acquiring a better understanding of their ecology is essential for the conservation of those depths.

WEIR (voice-over): The scientists aboard their boat, Under The Pole aims to document these ecosystems for the first time and help preserve their


BARDOUT (voice-over): The length of the missions are for months to years. It's very demanding, very tiring. It's a very big engagement, not only

human engagement; it's a huge logistical organization engagement.

WEIR (voice-over): Ghislain's team are preparing for a six month expedition in the Mediterranean this year that will take them from Greece

to Italy, to France. Today, they're going out to sea to conduct tactical training, in a new underwater navigational system.

BARDOUT (voice-over): You don't know in advance what you're going to, find not always. Sometimes you discover something you did not expect. And then

you need to know precisely where it is to be able to come back. And this is exactly what our system (INAUDIBLE). And to use it with efficiency, you

need to train.

EMMANUELLE PERIE-BARDOUT, EXPEDITION LEADER (voice-over): If we spend 20 minutes at 120 meters, we will take three hours to come back to the

surface. This is not negotiable.

You have to take these three hours, whatever happens. You need to be technically ready and psychologically ready or so to make this type of

dive. And yes, it takes years to be ready for that.

WEIR (voice-over): In 2022, Under The Pole helped gain protection for black coral forests in the Canary Islands. And they believe there's a

similar ecosystem --


WEIR (voice-over): -- to be explored on their Mediterranean voyage next year.

BARDOUT (voice-over): In Greece they already explored the, depths with robots, ROVs. So they know some fields of black corals but are not able to

study because of the, depths and because they do not have the divers to do, so.

And I like those missions where there is huge collaborations with different people that can do together something they cannot do alone all (INAUDIBLE)

their own achievement.

PERIE-BARDOUT (voice-over): Our mission is really to make the invisible visible, even if it's deep, even if it's very far away, like in the far

regions. We need these place and we need to protect it.


CHATTERLEY: Wow. And tell us what you're doing to answer the call, with the #calltoearth. We'll be back after this.




CHATTERLEY: Welcome, back

America's best selling car is going wholly hybrid. From 2025 all new Toyota Camry cars will have both a combustion engine and an electric motor. Peter

Valdes-Dapena has more on this bold move by Toyota.

And it is a bold move. It tells you something about the acceptance level for American consumers it seems of an electric vehicle battery and

combustion engine. Perhaps it's about having your cake and eat it. You have both options.

PETER VALDES-DAPENA, CNN BUSINESS SENIOR AUTO WRITER: Exactly, that's what, these are not plug in hybrids, these are going to be regular hybrids

that you drive and their cars that have their own motor.

But Toyota is the biggest seller in the EVs of hybrids rather by far. The company said they want to make all of the vehicles in their lineup at least

have a hybrid option. In this case they're going to go fully hybrid only on this, not the first model for Toyota but this is the most popular car in

the U.S.

So car model, not a truck or SUV. You have to figure, though customers that are buying a sedan, instead of a truck or, SUV, what are the priorities?

Well, probably fuel economy is a priority. I think that's what Toyota is thinking here. And so this is a great place they figure to drop in a hybrid

system and make it the only option.

CHATTERLEY: It's also a space they're comfortable, with you could argue that this is a bold move. Let's be clear, they've been putting batteries in

Priuses for more than 22 years, 23 years now.

VALDES-DAPENA: Yes, and hybrid versions of the RAV4 are very popular --


VALDES-DAPENA: -- which is their most popular model in the. U.S. Their other hybrids have been very popular. And customers right now are paying

over sticker for Toyota's hybrid models. So I think Toyota sees the customers who are not ready to go all electric, who are nervous about

charging, are ready to make this move now.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, and if you look at the other EV players as well, they are frantically having to cut costs in order to entice people to buy those

cars. Again, this points to that bridge needing to be longer, perhaps, and, bigger -- the bridge I mean, sort of playing both sides to some degree.

VALDES-DAPENA: Right. And Toyota has always said, for a very long, time Toyota has made this point, hey, wouldn't it be better instead of selling

fully electric vehicles, with zero emissions to a relatively smaller number of people, what if we sold more hybrids, took those batteries and put them

in hybrid vehicles that everyone can afford, everyone can, buy nobody has to worry about charging and bring down the total global carbon emissions

that way by sort of putting less batteries in more vehicles, rather than putting them all into a few fully electric vehicles for a small number of


CHATTERLEY: Yes, I could not agree more. That makes perfect sense to me. Peter Valdes-Dapena, it's great to chat with. You sir. Thank you.

We're back after this.




CHATTERLEY: Welcome back. There are a few moments left of trading on Wall Street this Thursday after our roaring midweek rally, the Dow is set to

finish a touch lower. You can call that unchanged, 0.2 percent lower. Of course, Treasury yields continue to extend their declines.

That's what helped earlier in the week. Let's take a quick look at the Dow components. Big day for tech, with Intel, Microsoft and Apple all

finishing in the green today. It's certainly helped by those falling bond yields.

Walmart, slumped on consumer spending, caution nearly falling 8 percent. It looks like the one tech giant left out of the green, is Cisco coming in at

the bottom of the index, they're down 10 percent.

Before we leave, new in to CNN, the IDF has released images of what it says are tunnels in the Al-Shifa Hospital complex in Gaza. The video you're now

watching was shot and distributed by the IDF.

Just to be clear, CNN cannot independently verify their findings. We've been unable to get comment from hospital authorities at this moment.

Doctors, health officials, of course, in the Hamas-run enclave have consistently denied the accusation.

That's all for QUEST MEANS BUSINESS, I'm Julia Chatterley, "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.