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Quest Means Business
International Court Of Justice Imposes Provisional Measures On Israel; UNRWA Fires Staffers Accused By Israel Of Involvement Of October 7th Attacks; Jury To Decide What Trump Owes E. Jean Carroll For Defamation; Houthi Rebels Fire Ballistic Missile Toward U.S. Destroyer; Alabama Carries Out First Known Nitrogen Gas Execution; King Charles Recovering From Prostate Surgery. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired January 26, 2024 - 15:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST: Closing snapshots of US stocks this Friday, and I can tell you, we've gone nowhere and not fast.
Take a look at this, in fact, we have traded less than a percentage point range. In the green, though, for the Dow Jones, at least for the majority
of the session, and those are the markets and these are the main events.
The International Court of Justice orders Israel to "Take all measures within its power to prevent genocide in Gaza."
And the jury is deliberating in Donald Trump's civil defamation trial.
And what the targeting of Taylor Swift can perhaps teachers about the dark side of artificial intelligence.
Live from New York, it is Friday, January 26th. I'm Julia Chatterley in for Richard Quest and this is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.
And a good evening once again, great to have you with us.
In today's top story, the United Nations top court ordering Israel to take all measures to prevent genocide in Gaza. The ICJ says Israel must do more
to limit the death and destruction and let humanitarian aid into the Strip. It did however, stop short of ordering a ceasefire.
The court only ruled on the emergency measures requested by South Africa and not on the core of the case. A ruling on whether genocide has occurred
in Gaza could take years to resolve.
South African and Palestinian officials are welcoming the decision, but Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says there is no merit to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Israel has an inherent right to defend itself. The vile attempt to deny Israel this fundamental right is
blatant discrimination against the Jewish state, and it was justly rejected.
The charge of genocide leveled against Israel is not only false, it is outrageous, and decent people everywhere should reject it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: The ruling is a legal setback for Israel, though Palestinians were hoping the court would help stop the fighting.
Melissa Bell has more.
JUDGE JOAN DONOGHUE, INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE: In the court's view, at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have
been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the convention.
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The world's top court declaring that it will move forward with South Africa's case against Israel
in which Israel is accused of violating the 1948 Genocide Convention with its military response in Gaza after the October 7th Hamas attacks.
DONOGHUE: The Palestinians appear to constitute a distinct national ethnical, racial or religious group and hence a protected group within the
meaning of Article II of the Genocide Convention.
BELL (voice over): Created in response to the Second World War, the International Court of Justice is the judicial backbone of the United
Nations. Its judges now ruling that it does have jurisdiction over the case and issuing emergency measures on Friday, but stopping short of calling for
DONOGHUE: Israel must take measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to the
members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip.
The court further considers that Israel must ensure with immediate effect, that its military forces do not commit any of the aforementioned acts.
BELL (voice over): Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared the outcome as a vile attempt to deny his country the right to defend itself.
NETANYAHU: The charge of genocide leveled against Israel is not only false, it is outrageous.
BELL (voice over): However, among the provisional measures, the court ruling that Netanyahu needs to ensure that humanitarian aid can enter The
Strip. A ruling desperately needed by a population that's been pushed past the brink of starvation, their homes further reduced to rubble with every
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): There is no safe area. Where shall we go? Stop the war, it is enough. We are drained. Everyone is
Children are gone. Adults are gone. Everyone is gone and the world is watching.
BELL (on camera): What the world was watching this Friday was what was going to come from this court. The case here could last for years, this
initial ruling is considered significant even if it falls slightly short of what South Africa had been hoping for.
NALEDI PANDOR, SOUTH AFRICA MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS: In exercising the order, there would have to be a ceasefire. Without it, the
order doesn't actually work.
NADIA SIMI, CO-ORGANIZER OF A PRO-PALESTINIAN PROTEST: It feels like a victory and a significant milestone and a step in the right direction in
the liberation of the Palestinian people. In a way, it is also very disappointing that the court did not rule in favor for an immediate
ceasefire at this time.
BELL (voice over): And yet, the pressure on Israel now undeniable, as the UN's top court rules that it is plausible that genocidal acts are being
committed in Gaza, and that that must stop.
Melissa Bell, CNN, The Hague.
CHATTERLEY: Okay, let's talk more about this now. We're joined by former executive director of Human Rights Watch, Kenneth Roth.
Kenneth, good to have you with us this evening. You're saying that the court went as far as it could with the decision today and that you aren't
surprised that it stopped short of calling for a ceasefire, primarily because it won't point the finger at one side in this conflict and Hamas
wasn't party to the proceedings.
Just explain your view of what took place today and the importance of it.
KENNETH ROTH, FORMER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: I think today's ruling was tremendously important. It really repudiated the view
that you heard Prime Minister Netanyahu articulate. He said, it is outrageous that anybody would accuse Israel of genocide, but in fact, you
know, out of a vote 15 to two, the court said, indeed, it was completely plausible that Israel is committing genocide.
And indeed, the Israeli judge even joined with the court on two provisions, one that that incitement of genocide stop; and second, that humanitarian
aid be let in. So this was a very fair case.
Now, some people are disappointed that the court didn't order a ceasefire. But frankly, I never expected it to because the International Court of
Justice is a tribunal to resolve civil disputes between governments. So it was only South Africa and Israel that were present. Hamas not being a
government was not present, and the court was not going to order a ceasefire to one side of the conflict, and not the other.
It did as much as it could, which is to say it ordered Israel to stop acts that could implicate Palestinian civilian rights under the Genocide
CHATTERLEY: I mean, you said it makes a huge difference in avoiding Palestinian civilian deaths and suffering. What measures would you now
expect to see on the part of Israel, bearing in mind as you pointed out, what Prime Minister Netanyahu said? And what are the consequences if those
changes aren't made?
ROTH: I think the two key things are first that the way Israel has been bombing, I would hope that there is an end to the use of these horrible,
huge 2,000-pound bombs that Israel has been dropping in heavily populated areas with predictable devastating consequences for Palestinian civilians.
But then second, Israel has to start allowing in more than just drips and drabs of humanitarian aid, because that's not enough. We have widespread
starvation. It has been widely reported by the UN humanitarian agency. So the court basically said, open up the gates, you've got to let the aid in.
Now, the courts, as it said, this order is binding, but it doesn't have a military. It doesn't have a police force. It depends on the UN Security
Council to impose coercive measures if that's necessary, but that means contending with a US veto.
But I wouldn't go too far down that line, because there's going to be enormous political pressure on Netanyahu to comply. You know, he accepted
the court as a legitimate body by sending his lawyers to argue his case, but you can't accept the court if you win, but not if you lose. Biden says
that he upholds a rules based order. You can't make an exception for Israel. Biden has tremendous leverage to push Israel to comply with this
order. I hope he uses it.
CHATTERLEY: And it's going to be my next question, to be honest, because the United States doesn't recognize the jurisdiction of the ICJ and Israel
may have brushed this aside. Can the United States at this point and the UK, as another example, afford to ignore this ruling, to your point?
Because I do see some element of disconnect and incoherence and I guess Myanmar would be the obvious one where the UK joined, I think five other
nations in support of the Gambian case against Myanmar and the Rohingya Muslims.
I mean, you sort of pick your victims in in certain cases. There is incoherence here that I see. I get back to the initial question, I
appreciate, it was long winded, but can they afford to ignore the message that's being sent here?
ROTH: First of all, let me just make clear, the US doesn't deny legitimacy of the International Court of Justice, it recognizes that it has
jurisdiction. It just found the suit "meritless" was the term it used.
Clearly, you know 15 out of 17 judges didn't buy the "meritless." Now, as you point out, the US and Western governments have backed court rulings of
a very similar sort with respect to Myanmar and the Rohingya, with respect to Russia and Ukraine, with respect to Syria and torture. You can't sort of
pick and choose your victims.
In this case, the court ruled for Palestinian civilians, and it would make a travesty of a supposed commitment to the rule of law, if suddenly, this
court ruling were ignored.
So you know, I think just as a matter of basic lawfulness, the Biden administration has to reassess and is going to have to put whatever
pressure is needed on Netanyahu to comply with this order, which does have the potential of making an enormous difference in to saving Palestinian
CHATTERLEY: It's a good question as well, but do you think it also complicates Ukraine's fight for some kind of justice to and the civilian
attacks that they've suggested have been carried out by Russia, too? I mean, I feel like we're in a situation here where Ukraine tends to be
supported by countries in the Global North and the Palestinians by countries in the Global South.
It goes back to that point of incoherence, and fighting for some kind of accountability and justice.
ROTH: You know, South Africa was criticized for focusing on the Palestinians and ignoring the Ukrainians. Western governments get the
reverse argument. You know, why are you so concerned about the Ukrainians, but you're ignoring Palestinians? And I think it's at this stage, given
this decisive ruling by the top UN court, it is really now the ball is in the court of the Western governments to act in a principled way and to
press for acceptance of this ruling.
If they do that, if they really show that the law applies to everybody, not just their favorite victims, that will go a long way to show the Global
South that the West is -- it means it when it says it's going to uphold human rights principles, and that's a necessary first step for them getting
broader support for whether it's the rights of Ukrainians or the rights of Uyghurs in China, but the various victims who tend to be ignored by
governments of the Global South.
CHATTERLEY: Important points. Kenneth Roth, great to have you and your insight. Sir, thank you.
Now, the United Nations Agency for Palestinian Refugees says it fired some staffers accused of playing a role in the October 7th attacks against
Israel. The UN says it's launched an investigation after Israel provided information on the staffers alleged role.
And now the US State Department has announced it is suspending additional funding to UNRWA.
Let's get straight to Alex Marquardt here on this.
Alex, do we have any sense of what evidence was used to suggest these individuals were involved? It seems like we've abandoned innocence before
proven guilty in this case if those individuals have already been fired, and the US State Department has decided to suspend further funding.
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Julia, it is certainly serious enough for these contracts to be terminated as UNRWA
said it would be for these staffers' investigations to be launched, but no one is really offering any details as to exactly what these staffers are
accused of doing.
But certainly they are, as the Commissioner General for UNRWA called them shocking allegations and an investigation has been launched.
UNRWA, of course, is playing a pivotal role when it comes to getting aid into Gaza. They are giving as much shelter as they can. Their shelter is in
southern Gaza, bursting at the seams. They have been trying to get food and medication, other aid in. And then, Julia, during peace times, they are one
of the biggest employers in the Gaza Strip. They have schools like the one that we're showing on the screen right now. You have all kinds of
facilities across the Gaza Strip, and elsewhere, where there are Palestinian refugees, including the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria.
So this is it truly stunning to the point where the State Department has announced that it is holding back what they're calling additional funding,
temporarily putting a pause on that additional funding. They haven't said how much that is going to be, but it could of course, significantly affect
the activities of UNRWA.
At the same time, Israel which has quite a rough relationship with UNRWA, they have accused Hamas militants of using UNRWA schools and shelters to
hide their weapons, to fire their weapons from, to hide their militants as well.
We've seen strikes by Israel on UNRWA facilities as a result of that, but Israel hasn't come out and said explicitly what these staffers are alleged
to have done.
The Defense Minister, Yoav Gallant, he said that these humanitarian workers and he put that in quotes, as if to demonstrate that animosity had blood on
their hands and Israel said that they do expect an investigation, a thorough investigation by UNRWA, which the United Nations says is being
But certainly at this point, we still have a lot of questions about what the staffers are accused of doing, but all parties taking this very
seriously -- Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. It further complicates what's already been to your point, a deeply complicated relationship at this stage.
Do we have any sense of how long this investigation may take?
MARQUARDT: Well, no, we don't at this point. But certainly, you can imagine the State Department and others, everybody involved who wants to get aid
into Gaza would like this to be wrapped up as soon as possible. We should note, there's some 150 UNRWA staffers who have been killed in this conflict
I mean, these are people on the ground, who are doing what they can to help keep Palestinian safe, alive, fed, get the medical treatment that they can.
So certainly that is where UNRWA, the US, Egypt, the Palestinians want the focus to be. But this is -- these are -- if this is indeed true, this is
obviously something that they can't be ignored.
So while this is being looked at, certainly, UNRWA is going to try to press ahead with their mission. They understand how serious this is, and this is
why they are putting -- they are taking this so seriously and putting out the statements that they are, because there are extraordinarily high
priorities right now with the catastrophe that's unfolding in Gaza.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, it is overshadowing all the important work, vital work that they're doing.
Alex for now, thank you. Alex Marquardt there.
Now one of football's most storied clubs prepares to say goodbye to one of its most legendary managers. Ahead, a live report on Jurgen Klopp's
decision to leave Liverpool. That's next.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.
A jury of nine is now deliberating in author E. Jean Carroll's defamation trial against former President Donald Trump.
A jury had already found the former president liable for defamation when he denied sexually assaulting her back in the 1990s. So the purpose of this
trial is to decide whether Carroll is entitled to monetary damages as a result of his comments.
Our legal analyst, Norm Eisen joins us now.
Carroll's lawyers are saying at least $24 million in compensatory damages. And the jury, as I mentioned, are now deliberating. How long are we
expecting them to do so for?
NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Juries have a great desire when they get a case to take back to the jury room on a Friday, to finish before the
There is no guarantee they'll be able to address all of the complicated issues of compensatory and punitive damages, damages for the harm E. Jean
Carroll suffered and damages to punish Trump if the jury finds he acted with malice, with bad intent. There is no guarantee they can finish by the
end of the weekend, but they might try to.
So, we are watching closely what will happen before the end of the day.
CHATTERLEY: And Norm, let's assume that the jury come back and say, okay, our suggestion in this case is that damages of $24 million should be paid.
The judge in my understanding gets the final say of what the compensatory damages if they are indeed any assigned on how much and when and how.
Can the former president appeal this decision? How does it work from there?
EISEN: Yes, here's what will happen. The jury will decide on the total damages -- compensatory damages. E. Jean Carroll has asked for $24 million,
but then they'll decide whether to add damages, for punitive reasons to punish Trump, if they believe he has acted with intent to hurt E. Jean
Carroll, that can be up to 10 times or more the amount of compensatory damages.
So you might be seeing a large number for the jury or maybe a smaller number, then that will go to the judge to adjust particularly the punitive
damages. Judges will often reduce those.
And then Trump gets an appeal, and can appeal it all the way up to the United States Supreme Court. So there could be some delays before we see
the end of the legal proceedings. The first thing to watch for is that number coming out of the jury, and how large will it be?
CHATTERLEY: I mean, to your point about -- and Carroll's lawyers have said at least $24 million because partly what they want to achieve here is to
prevent him ever treating another individual like this again. We know he is the former president, he has a huge social media presence. The megaphone is
one of the biggest in the world. So there's that aspect.
But what his lawyers have tried to say is look, he can't be held responsible for the other criticism, the threats, whatever it was that she
received on social media and beyond. How strong as a legal defense is that, Norm, in this case? What's your gut instinct after what you've heard?
EISEN: It's weak. If I released the brake on a car and roll it into traffic, or I shoot a firearm into the air and the bullet lands on
somebody, I can't say I didn't intend to hurt them. Donald Trump knows when he says these things what happens? Grave danger and E. Jean Carroll has
testified about that and the harm she suffered. Personally, the attacks she's had, the threats against her life, her professional damage that she's
suffered with her career being adversely affected, the pain and suffering she's had.
So that argument is not going to work, and I think the jury is going to say not only is there compensatory damages in the eight figures, I don't know
if they'll do the full $24 million more or less, but I think you are going to see eight figures and then a multiplier for intentional wrongdoing. That
is the punitive damages, where Donald Trump has done harm never mind to other people. He's continuing to do harm to hurt. They need to address that
as a jury and I think they will.
So my guess is a large number coming from this jury whenever they may conclude.
CHATTERLEY: And that could just be just the beginning. Norm, great to get your wisdom on this story and that decision could come at any moment now.
We shall see. It is a Friday as you pointed out at the beginning after all.
Norm Eisen, thank you so much for that.
Okay to sports now and a shocked decision ripples through the UK Premier League, Liverpool's talismanic manager, Jurgen Klopp announcing Friday that
he's stepping down at season's end.
The news comes with Liverpool sitting right at the top of the Premier League table and in his nine years at the club, Klopp has revitalized
Liverpool leading them to trophies both domestically and in Europe.
Klopp released a video emphasizing his love for the club and its supporters but said he's running out of energy.
Patrick Snell is in Atlanta.
Patrick, the Liverpool supporter really is groaning at this moment. I couldn't imagine what happened back home with my father and my brother. Do
you think this really is retirement?
I was looking at some of the things that he said, you know about the fact that it's not just about all the press conferences that he appears in. It's
the background work. It's the transfer window. It's the culture of the club and I sort of believed him when he said he's exhausted by it quite frankly.
PATRICK SNELL, CNN WORLD SPORT ANCHOR: Julia, first of all, I'm so sorry for you and the Liverpool fans out there.
CHATTERLEY: I know. Sorry for myself.
SNELL: Total shock for Liverpool fans.
I grew up in the area, went to University of Liverpool. I know about the passion for football in that part of the world and Jurgen Klopp, over the
years, really has embodied passion, in every way, shape, or form.
He transformed the club, Julia, let's be honest, took over in 2015 and 2019. He won the European Cup, the Champions League. That was the sixth
trophy in terms of the top dogs of European football for the club.
But it's what he did a year later that really, I think is forever cherished with all concerned at Anfield. He won the Premier League title in 2020,
albeit at the height of the global pandemic, and that at the time, and this is incredible because Liverpool with absolutely dominant force in English
footy in both the 70s and the 80s, it was their first ever Premier League title and their first top flight title in 30 years.
Scarcely believable as a kid growing up, but boy, has he transformed the club. Let's hear more from him now, Julia in terms of his thinking and his
reasoning for making this huge decision that will see him quit the club at the end of the season.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JURGEN KLOPP, LIVERPOOL MANAGER: It is that I'm -- what more can I say that I am running out of energy. I have no problem now obviously, I think I know
it already for longer that I will have to announce that at one point. But I'm absolutely fine now, but I know that I cannot do the job again and
again and again and again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNELL: Julia, as you well know, Jurgen Klopp is hugely, hugely popular with Liverpool fans, hugely respected. He adores the city of Liverpool. The red
half of that city absolutely adore him.
To answer your question at the top, I do think he'll be back. He will be back as a head coach in some capacity. I don't know where, I don't know
What we do know, if we take him at his word he says he will never manage again in England.
CHATTERLEY: Oh, I was about to say, we will see him back at ManU or Chelsea, there'll be issues. But, okay, he can go do work in his own
country or somewhere else.
I am being told to shut up. Patrick Snell, thank you so much for that.
Boohoo. I'll cry quietly.
All right, when we come back, the CIA director is expected to meet his Israeli and Egyptian counterparts in Europe. They will try to reach a deal
to free the remaining hostages in Gaza.
CHATTERLEY: Hello, I'm Julia Chatterley. And there's more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS in just a moment when explicit A.I. generated images of Taylor
Swift go viral, highlighting the dangers of this emerging technology.
And Richard Quest goes to Zanzibar and takes a look at one of its major exports. Tough gig. Before that the headlines this hour.
U.S. Central Command say Houthi rebels fired a ballistic missile towards a U.S. destroyer in the Gulf of Aden today. It say the a missile was shut
down and there were no injuries or damage. The U.S. was bombed multiple Houthi targets in Yemen recently in response to similar attacks against
The U.S. state of Alabama has carried out the first known execution of a prisoner using nitrogen gas. Ken Smith was sentenced to death for his role
in a 1988 murder for hire. Dozens of death row inmates in Alabama faced similar executions, which could usher in a new era of capital punishment in
The U.K.'s King Charles is said to be recovering from treatment for an enlarged prostate. Buckingham Palace had the 75-year-old monarch was
admitted to a London hospital on Friday. The palace says the king's condition is benign. All his engagements have been postponed for the time
And tennis great Novak Djokovic just suffered his first defeat at the Australian Open since 2018. He was ousted from the tournament by the fourth
seed Jannik Sinner. He's going to move on to face Daniil Medvedev in the -- in the men's final on Sunday.
And the White House now saying talks to release this really hostages in Gaza are ongoing. But no deal is "imminent" for the time being. Washington
is planning to dispatch the CIA director to Europe to try and broker a deal. Bill Burns is expected to meet his Israeli and Egyptian counterparts
as well as the Qatari Prime Minister. Officials caution however, discussions have been volatile so far.
Israel is refusing to agree to anything more than a temporary pause in the fighting. Hamas is pushing for a plan that would have Israel and the war.
And Jeremy Diamond is in Tel Aviv for us. Jeremy, the CIA director's visit clearly emphasizes the importance that Washington is placing on these talks
and negotiations. But I think they're also being very cautious in terms of optimism about achieving anything.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: No doubt about it. And that's because these talks have been so delicate, so complex and so
volatile, as you just noted, but it is important to keep in mind that these are the key players who were able to broker that last agreement in November
that led to the release of dozens of hostages. A week-long pause in the fighting and the entry of desperately needed humanitarian aid into Gaza.
And these key players as they prepare to meet this weekend in Europe, they are once again aiming for a similar kind of deal but perhaps one that will
actually be much bigger in scope in terms of the number of hostages released, the amount of aid that goes into Gaza and even perhaps aiming for
a longer-term ceasefire. Now, we know that both Israel and Hamas are still very far apart at the negotiating table.
As you just noted Israel is unwilling to agree to a permanent ceasefire in exchange for the release of all of the hostages. But what they have put on
the table is the longest ever pause in fighting to date. And that is up to a two-month ceasefire is what we understand. Hamas on the other side is
still pushing for this to be the grand deal that ends this war, and that, in their view, will crucially salvage their position in Gaza.
Something that, of course, Israel views as entirely untenable. So, a lot to still manage here between these two sides. But we do have some of the
parameters already. This would be three stage kind of hostage release. You would initially see the remaining civilians, those women, elderly,
individuals in particular, coming out first, followed by Israeli soldiers who are taken captive and then also, of course, the bodies of some 28
Israeli hostages who are still believed to be held by Hamas as bargaining chips.
And it's also important to note that as these negotiations happen, again, with all the usual caveats that we've just mentioned included, this is
certainly the most momentum that we have seen since those talks fell apart at the beginning of December after that week long truce fell apart. This is
the most momentum we've seen in the direction of this. Both in terms of the amount of information that we're learning about what's being discussed at
the negotiating table, and also the crucial meetings, including a top adviser to President Biden, Brett McGurk, who is in Doha as well as Cairo
earlier this week.
And now this key meeting with key players over the weekend, and following that, the Qatari Prime Minister heading to Washington next week. So we
could be seeing some movement but again, as the White House noted, nothing is done until of course it is done.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv there. Thank you. Now fake explicit photos of Taylor Swift are causing a real stir online looking for
a deeper conversation too about just how dangerous A.I. and deep fakes can be. We'll discuss next.
CHATTERLEY: Fake explicit images of Taylor Swift are highlighting the dangers of the use of artificial intelligence. The counterfeit photos
spread like wildfire online this week. They depicted the star in sexually suggest stiff positions.
Fans rushed to her defense making the phrase protect Taylor Swift trend on X. Swifty has also joined forces to report accounts posting the photos. All
of this reason, deep concerns about the use of this technology and where the regulator stand in addressing it. Not to mention the social media
platforms themselves. Claire Duffy is in New York for us on this. Claire, she's arguably one of the most famous women in the world.
She has fans and supporters that are effectively policing the internet on her behalf. Raising concerns about these pictures. My sort of bigger issue
perhaps is for those that don't have that kind of support and are facing this in silence. It raises questions of where the use of A.I. is headed and
what more can be done to help address this.
CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS WRITER: Yes. Julia, I think that's what's really scary. And what the situation proves is that if this can happen to Taylor
Swift, one of the biggest stars in the world, this can happen to anybody, and in fact, is already happening to women and to young girls. Of course,
this kind of deep fake pornography, non-consensual sexual images have been spreading for as long as the internet has existed.
But artificial intelligence, these generative A.I. tools have made it so much easier, so much faster, so much cheaper to make these kinds of images
and to spread them really rapidly. And as you said, the situation with Taylor Swift is kind of different because of her celebrity, these images
spread so quickly. They got tens of thousands of views which, you know, of course, is horrifying for her.
And she also had these fans coming to her defense, reporting these images, reporting these accounts, and many of the women, the victims of these kinds
of crimes don't have that kind of backup. You have experts saying this is a sign of just how badly we need regulation around artificial intelligence.
Some rules, some accountability for the people who create these images, the platforms that allow them to spread.
Despite the fact that X and many of these other social media platforms have rules preventing, you know, essentially preventing A.I. images like this
synthetic media that could cause harm. They say that it's not allowed. And yet it took hours for these images to be removed from X. You have even the
White House calling this situation alarming. And so, I think it is a sign that of course, more regulation is needed.
And perhaps a star with Taylor Swift's influence is going to be the thing that's going to push regulation to happen, Julia?
CHATTERLEY: Yes. I mean, there's so many aspects to this. There's the explicit nature, which is just awful in itself. But there is -- and it
raises the question about labeling a fake content to the viewers of this that I remember having a conversation with Eric Schmidt about this and
seeing people's minds change. Even when they know something's fake, their mind changes, which is another sort of different avenue of huge concern.
What are the platforms themselves saying, Clare, about their ability to police this? Never mind anything else.
DUFFY: Right. So, the platforms generally all have rules. As I said, that are supposed to prevent the spread of these kinds of synthetic materials.
But in many cases, it's really hard for them. Their systems just aren't equipped to catch these images quickly enough. And then you have, you know,
less regulated platforms, that sort of eight chance of the world where these images can continue spreading because they don't have rules.
And so, then people can just go pull them off of those sites and re upload them onto X or onto Facebook. And so, it's sort of a cat and mouse game for
these platforms often trying to catch the accounts that are continually re uploading these images. But I spoke to a lawyer, Carrie Goldberg who has
represented victims of these kinds of cases who said that we need to be holding the social media platforms accountable for removing these images
We also need to be looking at the software that people are using to create these kinds of A.I. images and holding those companies accountable as well,
CHATTERLEY: Yes. I couldn't agree more. Because I think a few legal cases like this and actually perhaps Taylor Swift is the perfect person in a way
to push this and try and get some deeper accountability from one of these social media platforms that then sets the precedence for everybody.
DUFFY: Yes, yes. I think -- I think we certainly can hope that both, you know, if she decides to take legal action on this or that she might have
some sway with lawmakers or regulators to say, look, this needs to be a priority here. As you're looking at A.I. regulation, ensuring that these
kinds of obviously harmful applications of A.I. aren't allowed. That needs to be priority number one.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. And as bad as it says, election 2024. That's all I can say. Wait until we -- cross A.I. with the politics in this country. Never
mind anywhere else. Clare Duffy, thank you for that story.
OK. It's been the conversation of the week. The Oscar nominations and the snub for Barbie in the Best Actress and Best Director categories. Now
everyone seems to have an opinion from Whoopi Goldberg to Hillary Clinton. The blockbuster wasn't completely left out, though. It's in the running for
Best Picture, as well as best supporting actor and actress. Ryan Gosling who was nominated for his role as Ken says he's grateful for the nod, but
that he's disappointed beyond disappointed at the snubs.
Kirsten Schaffer is the CEO of Women in Film and she joins us now from Los Angeles. I mean, let's be clear. It didn't get snubbed really. There were
eight nominations for this film. And both the director and Margot Robbie as the actress were captured, really in other nominations for this film. But
Kristen, give us your view, what why are you upset about what you've seen?
KIRSTEN SCHAFFER, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, WOMEN IN FILM: Well, to begin with, we are really excited that the film did get eight nominations.
Getting a producer nomination is huge, especially for Margot Robbie who has been working on this project for a really long time. But at the same time,
directing is, you know, that person who's really in charge, especially of that whole set and we want, you know, Margot's vision and her craft to be
acknowledged in that award as well.
CHATTERLEY: And, you know, I looked down at the other nominees for best actress, Emma Stone, Lily Gladstone, Annette Bening, Carey Mulligan and the
films that they're representing, and they are incredible. And I look at some of the past history of what we've seen for winners in the director
category. And what for the last two years, it's been women. Jane Campion, who I met last year.
Phenomenal woman phenomenal film, the Power of the Dog. And I don't see a bias against women in this. I see incredibly strong female categories and
director categories and films. I sort of do wonder, and you can push back on me, if you like, what all the who horror is quite frankly. There are
brilliant other films and not everybody can win the prize.
SCHAFFER: This is true. And we are, you know, really excited that Justine Triet has been nominated. That's an exceptional film. But it's still --
CHATTERLEY: Incredible film.
SCHAFFER: Yes. It's a really special movie. But it still remains that only women that have ever -- only eight women have ever been nominated in the
director category before. And, you know, it's almost 100 years of women making movies. So, we just want to see more women in that director
CHATTERLEY: I would agree with you. But would you also agree that there are some other brilliant directors? I mean, there were what? 10 nominations for
Best Film and only five directors. So, five of the 10 don't get -- don't get a place. I mean, that's just the bottom line. Do you see a bias against
women here or not? Because I just don't when I look at the quality of the films.
SCHAFFER: You know, we do see a bias when you look at those numbers overall. Right? So --
CHATTERLEY: In this case -- in the Barbie case, really, I get that it was a super successful film and brilliant at the box office. And I know a lot of
people loved it. But in context, I just -- and I'm speaking as a woman here too, and I love Margot Robbie, but I just don't see bias here.
SCHAFFER: I think you have to look at the field overall, you know, we are really stuck in the percentages of women who direct top grossing movies.
You know, where we hover around that 12 percent. That means that 78 percent of the movies are made by men. And so, I think our ultimate goal is to
change the industry. Not just the awards. Awards are one indicator of the health of the industry.
And we're looking for more women to control or to be in those top decision- making jobs at all levels across the industry.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. And I couldn't agree more with that. I'm all for women in that respect, but I don't know. I sort of failed to see some of the angst
around this, quite frankly.
SCHAFFER: A little bit of it too, is that, you know, there's 10,000 -- almost 10,000 people in the academy who can vote on the best picture
nominations and it's a much smaller, I think it's more like 500 were voting on Best Director. And I think the Academy has made great strides in
reflecting gender and diversity across the industry. But I still think we have a ways to go in that director category which speaks to the other
We need more women directing top grossing movies and then I think the nominations are going to change.
CHATTERLEY: OK. We'll agree to disagree on this one. But I agree with your broader point.
Thank you so much for joining us. Women in Film CEO there. Thank you.
All right. If you look around your kitchen, you'll likely find some vanilla or close Zanzibar. When we come back, Richard Quest looks at the spices
that are driving the island (INAUDIBLE)
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. The United States is facing potential exposure to China's economic slowdown. That warning from
the White House Economic Council earlier today. But the CEO of global port operated D.P. World sees brighter days ahead. He also spoke about the grain
market in Africa and of course A.I. with our Richard Quest at Davos.
AHMED BIN SULAYEM, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, D.P. WORLD GROUP: So now, China market is a good steal. So we are in China, we have a port. So, I don't read the
news. I look at the numbers. Still there is growth.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Where are you going to expand?
SULAYEM: We are expanding in Africa in a big way. We are in 48 countries in Africa today. We have -- in Nigeria, we have 400,000 points of sales. In
Ghana 50,000. The total Africa we have 600,000 locations of sales. We had there in cargo, the last mile, which is a problem in Africa.
QUEST: You see that is the big problem, isn't it? The more you get involved in other people's supply chains, the more you have to deliver the last
SULAYEM: Absolutely. When there is difficulty there is benefit. You can't get it easy. But we know now. We are able to really reduce costs for
QUEST: Where does A.I. come into you?
SULAYEM: Very important. A.I. today, it's helping us in -- when the customer for example, we can -- machine learns and we can become more
better. When it comes to supply chain, we can analyze and look at what we've done and how can we improve it. And we can predict. Predictive
analysis is very important for us today.
QUEST: What sort of things are you predicting?
SULAYEM: Well, predicting become precise because we have learned something. We took something from somewhere to somewhere and didn't look as good. And
we fixed it. And the machine learns. Next time we don't make that mistake. That's all. A.I. is machine learning and we're living a lot.
QUEST: The big worry is it's going to take over and we'll all be in trouble and there'll be job losses and things will be not go well. You don't think
so? Choose your color.
SULAYEM: I don't think so.
QUEST: Oh, green (INAUDIBLE) where would you put yourself on the scale of preparedness?
SULAYEM: I think I'd be on this area. Maybe.
CHATTERLEY: OK. When you open your cupboard you might find cinnamon, cloves, maybe even some vanilla. Well, there's a good chance that one of
those at least came from Zanzibar. And our Richard Quest recently traveled there where he got to look at the spices that have helped driving the
QUEST (voiceover): There are smells in the air which is the smell of spices, and they are everywhere. For this is Zanzibar found off the coast
of Tanzania, an island where spices define its destiny as much as its economy. The star of this show, the humble clove. It's 90 percent of spice
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you have to pick it up before the flower pops up.
QUEST (on camera): So what happens after you pick it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then you can eat separation.
QUEST (on camera): Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then you dry in the sun.
QUEST: For how long?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three days.
QUEST (voiceover): Henry Ford invented the assembly line. This farmer has adapted it for his cloves.
QUEST (on camera): Once it comes off the tree. Those are the stems where they'll make (INAUDIBLE) this is day one. I'm very aware. So it's why in
Zanzibar, it must be quality that defines the product, not quantity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They specialize in organic farming and that means they get paid more, but they have to stick to certain requirements that are
needed in terms of (INAUDIBLE) in terms of harvesting but also in terms of drying.
QUEST (on camera): What's the current price per kilo or ton?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A government price is 15,000 shillings. Just for about $7.00 per kilogram.
QUEST (voiceover): Seven dollars at the source that inflates by up to 10 times for consumers buying organic clothes. Spice farming has its
challenges. Climate change, for instance, taking its toll. The majority of farmers say they're producing less than before. According to one study.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When it's rainy season, you don't get rain. When it's summer, you get rain. It's not property to the season. Yes. Climate change
is the problem of growth.
QUEST (voiceover): The island produces many more spices than clothes. So, for the full popery I needed to visit the spice market in Stone Town. This
market is a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
QUEST (on camera): The problem I always have in this sort of place is who to buy from.
QUEST (voiceover): So much choice from so many stores.
QUEST (on camera): Let's have fish masala.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fish masala.
QUEST (on camera): Thank you. How much for the (INAUDIBLE) small.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Small? Six?
QUEST (on camera): Five. With competition from countries like Madagascar and India, Zanzibar may be unknown to many people. But if you want a little
taste of this island.
QUEST (on camera): Oh, look at that.
QUEST (voiceover): Go. Open your kitchen cabinet where you'll no doubt find a dash of Zanzibar right there in your home.
CHATTERLEY: And you can catch more of Richard's time in spicy Zanzibar on Quest World of Wonder this week. That's Saturday at 1:30 a.m. and 1:30pm.
Eastern Time and on Sunday at 5:30 p.m. too.
Now there are just moments left to trade on Wall Street. We'll have the final numbers and the closing bell right after this. Stay with us.
CHATTERLEY: And there are just moments left to trade on Wall Street. The Dow sector posted modest gains and hedge higher overall for the week as you
can see there. And drumroll please.
The great news is I'll be back on air daily from next week with a brand new show and you might see it, a familiar title. "FIRST MOVE" returns on Monday
at 6:00 p.m. here in New York. That's 11:00 p.m. for the night hours in the U.K. And 7:00 a.m. So the early birds on Tuesday in Shanghai. We will see
And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. I'm Julia Chatterley. The closing bell is ringing on Wall Street. And "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts now.